December 19, 2024 • 42 mins
Susan Bright, CEO of the Employers Initiative on Domestic Abuse (EIDA) joins Tamsin to explore the crucial intersection of domestic abuse and the workplace. Gain valuable insights as Susan discusses her mission to guide and educate employers on this sensitive issue.
Susan Bright
CEO, Employers’ Initiative on Domestic Abuse (“EIDA”)
Susan Bright joined EIDA as CEO in 2022. EIDA is a charity with a member network of over 1,700 employers across the UK that are committed to providing effective support for their employees impacted by domestic abuse. Previously Susan was a partner at global law firm, Hogan Lovells. She held various senior leadership positions, including as a member of the firm’s global executive and UK Managing Partner. Susan has been committed to tackling domestic abuse for many years and led the firm’s introduction of its domestic abuse policy. Hogan Lovells became one of EIDA’s early Beacon members. Susan is also Chair of 50:50, a charity which helps women to progress in politics and is a Non-Executive Director of MindForward Alliance, a network of businesses working together to support and create positive mental health for their people.
Support services for individuals watching /listening: https://www.eida.org.uk/resources/directory-support-services
Tamsin Caine
Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.
You can contact Tamsin at tamsin@smartdivorce.co.uk or arrange a free initial meeting using https://bit.ly/SmDiv15min. She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK
Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS
Chartered Financial Planner
Smart Divorce Ltd
Smart Divorce
P.S. I am the co-author of “My Divorce Handbook – It’s What You Do Next That Counts”, written by divorce specialists and lawyers writing about their area of expertise to help walk you through the divorce process. You can buy it here https://yourdivorcehandbook.co.uk/buy-the-book/
To learn more about our podcast sponsor Ampla Finance – access their product guide here: https://bit.ly/3Ieqmuc
Or complete enquiry form https://bit.ly/3W4J7pz and one of the team will be in touch.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tamsin Caine (00:06):
Welcome to series 10 of the Smart Divorce Podcast.
During this series, we're goingto be speaking about the
difficult subject of domesticabuse.
Unfortunately, during my work,I come across people who are
victim survivors of domesticabuse on a far too regular basis
.
So we're going to be talking tothose who have survived
(00:30):
themselves, to professionalsworking in this area, to
solicitors, to hopefully helpyou to find the right support if
you're in that situation.
This is an issue that's notgoing away.
So if you're going through thisor you know anybody who is, I
really hope this series helpedyou.
Thanks for listening.
(00:55):
Hello and welcome to the SmartDivorce Podcast.
I'm really pleased to be joinedtoday by Susan Bright.
Now, she's going to introduceherself properly in just a
second, but she is the CEO of Idon't know what you call it EIDA
, eida or I should be just usingthe initials, so I'm going to
let you tell me in a minute, butthey are the Employer
(01:19):
Initiative for Domestic Abuseand it's such a brilliant
organization.
They had a conference last weekwhich I'm hearing rave reviews
about from everybody whoattended and, um, crazily, I
know lots of people who whoattended, which is great.
So welcome, susan.
(01:39):
Thank you so much for joiningme today.
I think this is a massivelyimportant subject and I'm really
looking forward to speaking toyou.
Can you give us a bit ofinformation about what you do
and perhaps a bit about how yougot involved as well?
Susan Bright (01:54):
Brilliant.
Thanks, Tamsin.
Very much for inviting me.
It's great to get the feedbackabout the conference as well.
Quite an undertaking.
Yes, so I'm Susan Bright, theceo of the Employers Initiative
on Domestic Abuse.
We say ida, but some people sayada and other people use our
initials, and probably we reallyought to, um, get some
(02:16):
consistency there, but, um,that's, that's a bit of a
struggle, so, uh so EIDA is acharity.
We've been around since 2017and we do what it says on the
tin.
We're here to help employers tounderstand what domestic abuse
is and then to help theiremployees who are impacted by it
(02:39):
, and we were set up byElizabeth Filkin, who saw the
amazing work that was happeningacross the sector in terms of
supporting people, butrecognised that there wasn't
anything there for business orfor anyone who employs people.
(03:00):
And work for those who go towork and lots of people in this
country do, of course can be forpeople an escape from their
domestic situation.
It can be, for people, a safespace, and it can be a place
with the right culture where youcan come forward and seek
support.
But the issue is helpingemployers to understand what
(03:21):
domestic abuse is.
They do have a responsibilityfor their people and being able
to signpost people to thesupport that they need.
And if you can harness everyemployer across the country to
do that, think of the power ofit.
So that's the concept.
So it's very simple.
We only do four things.
In fact, we only have fouremployees, soon to be joined by
(03:42):
a fifth, so we're a tinyorganisation but we really punch
above our weight because wepartner with lots of other
people.
So we do four things.
The first is to raise awarenessof domestic abuse amongst
employers.
So really helping employers tounderstand what domestic abuse
is.
So that's the first thing.
The second thing, I'll comeback to all of those what
(04:04):
domestic abuse is.
So that's the first thing.
The second thing I'll come backto all of those we can unpack
it a bit, but the second thingis to give employers the tools
that they need in order tosupport their people impacted by
domestic abuse.
So, for example, we have adetailed we call it a handbook,
which takes employers throughunderstanding what domestic
abuse is, what their legalresponsibilities are, and then
(04:25):
how to a real how to introducean effective domestic abuse
policy.
So we can talk more about that.
And we also have a templatepolicy so people can take the
policy and they can top and tailit.
Lots of guidance.
So that's the tools, includingour events that people can come
to.
(04:45):
And then the third thing andactually I think the thing that
employers like the most isgetting employers together to
share their experience ofdomestic abuse and and
particular challenges.
So we might connect employerswho are in a particular industry
sector, for example, or bringthe employers together around a
particular topic.
So we have a group of what wecall our beacon members, who
(05:10):
actually fund our activity andwe regularly meet with them and
tackle some really quite trickyissues.
So during the course of thelast 12 months we've looked at
international policies forinternational businesses, for
example.
We've looked at language thatpeople might use and we've also
looked at international policiesfor international businesses,
for example, we've looked atlanguage that people might use
and we've also looked at what doyou do when you find you've got
a perpetrator of domestic abusein your business, and you can
(05:32):
imagine that's a reallycomplicated issue, so really
tricky.
So you bring those, those,those groups, together and then
the final thing we do is tocollaborate with anybody and
everybody, but particularly withgovernment, to help progress
the government's policy laws ondomestic abuse in this country.
(05:53):
We collaborate with the domesticabuse sector, so we don't
provide training, for example.
So you know, we connectemployers with people who
provide really excellenttraining.
We connect employers withpeople who provide really
excellent training.
We connect employers withpeople who provide other
services that could supportindividuals.
We also collaborate withacademics because we're really
(06:14):
keen to progress ourunderstanding about what works
and what doesn't work.
So that's the fourth thing thatwe do, and we now have around
nearly 1,800 employers acrossthe UK who belong to us, which
is a hell of a lot.
That's huge.
Which is absolutely huge, andcollectively, we only can do an
(06:38):
estimate, really, tamsin,because we ask people, how many
employees do you have?
People, how many employees doyou have?
Um, but we we've tended to say,we've we, that those employers
collectively employ about 25 ofthe uk workforce.
It's probably more than thatnow, but I would say probably 30
, but that that's an estimate,and some of them will be doing
lots, some of them will be earlyin their journey, uh, and it
(07:02):
really is a business issuethough, and we can talk a little
bit more about that, but that'swho we are and what we do.
We have, right at the heart ofeverything that we do, really
importantly, is the experienceof people who have had been
impacted by domestic abuse.
So, really importantly, all ourwork is informed by the
(07:22):
experience of people who havesuffered with domestic abuse,
and we've got 13,.
We call them ambassadors, sothey're individuals who
volunteer with us and they havetheir, our materials, our
(07:44):
resources to make sure thatthey're really authentic.
Whilst I can talk about factsand figures that one in four
(08:08):
women experience domestic abuse,one in six, seven men
experience domestic abuse, andwe can talk about the cost to
the economy, we can talk aboutthe cost of business, which is
17 billion pounds a year inEngland alone.
It's massive.
But actually the storytellingtimes in really matters because
I think that's the piece thatbrings this alive and helps to
(08:31):
open people's eyes to what isall around us but we're not
seeing.
Tamsin Caine (08:37):
I completely agree and my awareness has been
brought around by the work thatI do.
But I would absolutely hold myhands up and say not only did I
not really fully understand theextent that domestic abuse
impacts individuals, never mindemployers, et cetera but really
(09:05):
I don't think I really knew whatit was um and I naively and I
I've said this during thisseries many times because I
think it's important that thatthat people understand where I
am and where I was when Istarted working with debauching
um individuals and couples, Ihad very clearly said to the
(09:28):
lovely Karen Kipping um, who's afabulous divorce coach who
works in this area I probablywon't um have anybody who needs
your help, because I don'timagine that I'm likely to work
with people who um have been inabusive relationships, and that
was absolute nonsense.
(09:48):
Probably 80 plus and I've said75 before, but I actually think
it's more than that.
I think probably 80 pluspercent of the people that I
newly work with who are goingthrough divorce are leaving
abusive relationships, and so itimpacts me on a daily basis
just because I'm speaking topeople and and so it's become a
(10:11):
passion of mine to to helppeople, but also to to hopefully
help governments change and soon as well.
So, um, it's massivelyimportant and it struck me when
I heard about your initiativethat actually that's not.
Obviously, 30 percent of ofpeople employed hopefully have
(10:35):
employers who are already activein this space, but I suspect
there's there's numerous whoaren't aware that this is a
thing.
I've written a domestic abusepolicy for our business, but
it's a very small business.
I guess the thing that I wantedto ask you is is it little
(10:56):
businesses, everything up to thebiggest businesses in the
country, or are you finding thatyou're largely engaging with
the bigger businesses at themoment and it's almost going to
be a funnel working down to thesmaller ones as you move along?
Or is it just as soon as peoplefind out about you there?
Yeah, they're kind of coming upto you and saying let's get us
(11:19):
on there.
Susan Bright (11:20):
It's a mix actually.
So our membership currently,you know, is all sorts, from the
biggest organisations, you know, like Google's and Amazon's and
the Home Office and BP andpeople, vodafone, down to really
small businesses.
You know, recently we had aprimary school sign up, for
example.
Hello magazine has just signedup, for example.
(11:43):
So it's, it's, it's anyone andeveryone, but, you know, in
terms of really having an impact, clearly, if we're able to work
with bigger employers who havea bigger workforce, then we're
reaching more people morequickly.
But it is very much ourstrategy.
I mean, our vision is to haveevery UK employer taking action
(12:07):
on domestic abuse, and ourmaterials are prepared
deliberately for bigorganisations and for SMEs,
small and medium sizedenterprises, and also for, you
know, for the charity sector,for government departments, so
it's not just corporate business, if you see what I mean.
So our materials could be usedby, you know, small businesses
(12:29):
too.
So in our handbook we have asection in quite a long section
that goes through how do you ifyou're a big business, and then
we have a separate section,which is a shorter version, for
small businesses and I'vewritten guides for really,
really simple.
These are the five things youneed to do or whatever.
So it really is and can be foreverybody.
(12:52):
But I think the awareness, whatyou were saying about not
realizing I was saying saying weall have assumptions about
domestic abuse and before Ijoined EIDA a couple of years
ago, I was the managing partner.
I had been the managing partnerat Hogan Ubbles, which is a big
, big law firm, global law firm,and in that role I had led the
(13:15):
introduction of the firm'sdomestic abuse policy a few
years ago.
And that's where I met EIDA,because they helped us to do
that.
And you know, I hadpreconceptions about domestic
abuse.
I assumed it was, you know,more physical violence between a
couple.
But it's so much broader thanthat.
I mean the legal definition inthe now Domestic Abuse Act.
(13:38):
It's about abuse between peoplewho are connected, who are both
16 years or older, and so thatincludes not only those, you
know, partner type relationships, whether you're married or not
married, same sex, whatever, butit also includes, you know,
teenage relationships.
(13:58):
So, for example, you know, orrelationships between children
and parents, as long as thechild is over 16, or people you
know we forget, older people aswell, you know.
So there can be abuse betweensiblings In some communities.
Um, I have learned that, um,you know, mother-in-law,
(14:21):
daughter-in-law abuse is is areal issue.
So it's, it's any familyrelationship, whether whether
you're living to together in thesame household, or or it now
extends also to you know, wherepeople have, have left a
relationship and are separate,so you have have, you know, that
, post-separation abuse that cancarry on for years.
(14:43):
So, first of all, it affects allsorts of different
relationships and then, secondly, it's the nature of abuse,
because a lot of people havethis vision, a lot of employers
have this vision that it'sphysical violence, and sometimes
it is, but at the heart of it,as you know, and sometimes it is
, but at the heart of it, as youknow, it's about control, and
(15:04):
we now have a criminal offenceof coercive and controlling
behaviour, which came in in 2015.
But that's really at the centreof it and abuse can.
Then it can be around isolatingpeople from their family and
friends.
It can be about economic abuse.
I mean some of the stories.
Honestly, it's amazing thatI've heard about how people are
controlled and not able to spendany money or have the things
(15:27):
that money can buy, and it'susing children to abuse, pets to
abuse.
I mean it's everything andreally so many people have said
to me that the the psychological, the controlling behavior is is
so damaging, and sometimes moredamaging than the the physical,
physical abuse which may or maynot be present, and so it's.
(15:52):
So it's two things.
It's it's a much wider set ofrelationships, I think, than we,
we naturally think, and it's amuch broader set of behaviours,
but it's hard to control.
So when we brought in, I had thesame experience when we brought
in the domestic abuse policy atHogan Novels, you know, some
people did say but why are wedoing this?
Nobody, you know, nobody whoworks in a place like this is
(16:13):
going to have experienceddomestic abuse.
And of course, what we found,sadly, when we brought in our
policy was, first of all, peoplewould come forward to say they
did, come forward to say we areso pleased you're talking about
this because it's so stigmatized, there's so much of a sense of
shame.
The fact that theorganization's talking about
this and is offering to help ismassive.
(16:35):
And then we did have peoplecoming forward to seek the
support that our policy offered.
So that really taught me, youknow, it really opened my eyes
up and also showed me the valuethat an organisation, employer
can have if it has the rightculture so people feel able to
(16:57):
come forward.
And even if they don't feelable to come forward, if you're
providing that through yourbusiness, you're providing
awareness and raising awarenessamongst your employees somebody
might at least take theinformation and go themselves to
seek external expert supportand they may also be able to
recognise.
You know the signs in family andfriends and that sort of thing,
(17:18):
but doing this job.
You know when people, whenfriends and that sort of thing,
but doing this job.
You know when people, when Iused to be a lawyer, um, you
know people used to say, well,what do you do?
And I say I'm a lawyer, and Iglaze over.
And now I say now I say whatI'm doing, I I almost every time
that I'm a social event ormeeting people in a sort of
(17:40):
slightly larger group and I tellpeople what I do, almost every
time somebody will come up to mequietly at some point and say
can I just share with you whathappened to me?
It's everywhere, tamsin, it'severywhere.
And so you know I'm absolutelypassionate about helping
businesses to do something aboutit and also it's important for
(18:02):
businesses to know that they dohave a legal responsibility to
do something about it.
So we've got this DomesticAbuse Act, which came in in 2021
, and there's some statutoryguidance.
So I'm being a lawyer now.
Now there's some statutoryguidance that sits alongside it,
which has a little sectionabout employees and makes it
(18:26):
clear that there are obviouslyhealth and safety obligations on
employers and employers alsohave a common law duty of care
to their employees.
And it explicitly says and thisextends to supporting employees
who are impacted by domesticabuse, and this extends to
supporting employees who areimpacted by domestic abuse.
And that guidance recommendsthat businesses have policies
and processes to support people.
(18:47):
And one thing I think is really, really important is it's not
about a business becoming anexpert in domestic abuse.
That's not what we're about andthat would be inappropriate,
but what it is about is helping.
We talk not what we're about,and that would be inappropriate,
but what it is about is helping.
We talk about a three-hourframework.
So it's about helping abusiness and their employees to
(19:07):
do three things One is torecognise the first hour,
recognise the signs of domesticabuse.
The second is to respondappropriately.
And the third is to refer tothe expert support that's
available.
So recognising the signs can bereally quite hard, because
victims and survivors ofdomestic abuse will often hide
that, they may not be ready toshare, may not even realise that
(19:30):
they are experiencing domesticabuse.
I expect you've come acrossthat numerous times.
Yeah, yeah, yes.
So one of the things that quitehelps with that is there's, um,
there's a wheel, uh called theDuluth wheel.
That was created quite a longtime ago, comes in different,
different, um, different uhtypes, but it basically puts
(19:52):
it's, it's a picture which putsparent control at the middle and
then has different segments oftypes of abuse, and I think that
can be a really helpful toolfor people to look at.
And I've had so people say tome, looking at, I can suddenly
see, yeah, I'm experiencing thatbehavior and that behavior and
that behavior and it sort ofopens their eyes to it.
So recognizing the signs notalways easy, but usually it's
(20:17):
changes in behavior.
So if somebody used to come tolots of events after work, but
suddenly they're going home,their attendance is different,
they're constantly beinginterrupted at work with
telephone calls or whateverthey're anxious to get home on
time that sort of thing can be asign.
And then how you respond isreally important because, as I'm
(20:39):
sure you know, it is incrediblydifficult for somebody to come
forward and seek support andhelp or even to accept that
that's what they're goingthrough, and so the response is
key and believing people isreally important, because it's
disastrous to say something like, but are you really sure?
Or but he seems so charming, orshe seems so lovely, etc.
(21:02):
Or why don't you just leave, isa common response, which is a
very difficult thing for peopleto do.
So responding appropriately andthen referring to expert
support.
So if an employer has broughtin support within the business,
referring somebody to thesupport available in the
(21:24):
business, so bigger businessesmay have counselling services
and other support that might behelpful, and then, of course,
also the business having theknowledge about the external
support that's available, thenational helplines and so on,
support that's available, thenational helplines, and so on.
There's a fantastic um appcalled bright sky which anyone
can download from the web's web.
(21:45):
You know the web store,whatever it's called, the app
store, sorry and um or you canaccess it online and the bright
sky app has on it uh,information about what domestic
abuse is.
You can do a little, you know,quiz.
It's got a lot of informationto support people impacted by
(22:06):
domestic abuse, and also it hasa fantastic directory which you
can put in your postcode ofwhere you are and it will then
bring up the services that arelocal, really, really useful, I
find if somebody is in adangerous situation, they may
not wish to, just as asafeguarding issue, may not be
able to download it onto theirphone, but maybe a friend can.
Tamsin Caine (22:26):
yeah, yeah absolutely, that's brilliant.
I didn't know about that.
We'll um.
We'll pop a note in the shownotes for for bright, bright sky
right, good, bright sky.
Susan Bright (22:37):
It's um a collaboration between hestia,
which is a domestic abusecharity, and the Vodafone
Foundation, who funded it, andit's available here in the UK
lots of different languages aswell, which is super useful and
international employers.
It is also available now insome other countries as well, so
very useful.
Tamsin Caine (22:54):
That's fantastic what a brilliant app because it
is finding sometimes finding thelocal domestic abuse services
is tricky if they're not kind ofout there and making a lot of
noise.
I mean that's brilliant.
I like the three R's.
That's nice and simple.
(23:15):
People can kind of get theirheads around that.
People can kind of get theirheads around that is that.
So if and as you say, lots ofpeople have no idea that they
have been experiencing domesticabuse.
We had a conversation with thisabout with somebody on linkedin
actually this morning, andsomebody had said that it's
(23:36):
important to understand thatpeople don't always recognize it
because it feels normal to them, yeah, and that because it's
important to understand thatpeople don't always recognize it
because it feels normal to them, yeah, and that because it's
quite often because it's aboutcontrolling behavior and the
people that are the perpetratorsare quite often quite devious
and it it slowly encroaches onthe relationship, it slowly
(24:00):
creeps up.
It's tiny changes in behaviorover a sustained period of time.
If somebody went from beingprince charming to punching you
in the face, it's quite clearbut this isn't always that this
is quite often just small, tinychanges over a very long period
(24:24):
of time where this is normal toyou and and this is how you've
come to live and actually Ithink the reason that I deal
with lots of people who aresuddenly realizing that they're
leaving an abusive relationshipis because it's the having left
that suddenly makes it clearthat what was happening actually
(24:47):
wasn't what ought to be normal,even though it was their normal
.
I hope that makes some sort ofsense.
But if, if somebody is in thisin a position where they've
they've realised that thingshaven't been great for them and
that they have realised thatthey've been in an abusive
(25:08):
relationship, whether they'restill in it or whether they have
managed successfully to leaveit and are in a post-separation
situation, if they don't know,if their employer's got a
domestic abuse policy, who arethey going to?
Who should they approach where?
(25:28):
Where would it be normal tofind a domestic abuse policy if,
if there was one in fact, inthem in with the employer?
Susan Bright (25:36):
lots of questions there yes, um, so I'll try and
pick my way through some ofthose.
So, um, it's it.
So we're encouraging everyemployer to have a policy or
written guidance.
Um, ideally a policy, but somebusinesses there are lots of
hoops to go through to have anactual formal policy.
(25:58):
But something written down isreally important and the reason
that we recommend that isbecause people have been in a
situation where they arecontrolled.
Having some control iscritically important.
So you are much more likely toseek help if you know what is
going to happen to you and ifyou are able to control the
(26:19):
consequences of coming forward.
So having something writtendown very clearly explains to a
person well, this is thebusiness doesn't tolerate
domestic abuse.
If I come forward, this is thetype of support I mean.
Obviously it flexes, but thisis the type of support that I
can expect, etc.
Type of support that I canexpect, et cetera.
And the fact it's written downand available also maybe helps
(26:46):
to take away that for somepeople, that real sense of
stigma and shame.
So the fact it's being talkedabout openly within an
organisation it's like mentalwellbeing.
You know, 15 years ago nobodywould talk about that in the
workplace.
But you know, once people starttalking about it, it is easier
to have those conversations, sohaving it written down is really
important.
The last time there was a surveyto see how many businesses in
(27:08):
the UK had a domestic abusepolicy was back in about 2019.
And that was carried out by theVodafone Foundation, and at
that point, only about 5% oforganisations had something.
I want to do another survey nowto see, because it would have
got a lot better.
But even where your businesshas a domestic abuse policy, you
(27:30):
still need it's reallyimportant to talk about it and
to keep raising awareness,because people won't necessarily
know that you have one or to goand look for it.
We all know that anorganisation will have a
sickness policy or a maternityleave policy, because those are
things that an employer musthave, but at the moment, there
(27:51):
is no obligation to have adomestic abuse policy.
Maybe that will come someday,but it's certainly best practice
.
But people don't know.
If you don't know, if you don'tthink about it, don't know
about it, and so that's why it'sso important for employers
regularly to be reminding peoplethat they do have a policy,
they do have a response, theyare able to support people.
(28:14):
That awareness piece is reallyimportant, and how a business
raises awareness is alsoimportant.
There's nothing better, frankly, than the old fashioned way of
you know having a poster on theback of a toilet door.
Frankly, because that's aprivate space.
If you have a nice awarenessraising poster with a QR code,
(28:36):
or you know information aboutwhere to go within the business
or outside the business QR code,or you know information about
where to go within the businessor outside the business, do you
know what?
That's probably one of the mostuseful things, because if you
have that same information on ayou know, next to the coffee
point or on your intranet site,it may be harder for you don't
necessarily want to stand thereand take down the information
when your mates are watching you.
Tamsin Caine (28:54):
That's interesting .
I'm thinking as you're talkingabout that.
We have a shared office spaceand I think lots of businesses
are in this position now.
So we have a desk in abeautiful mill building where
lots of different businesses areall together, and our toilets
(29:17):
are not public, but they'republic to their own side of the
building.
They're not public public butthey're public to the their own
by the building and they're noteven in, never mind being not
only for our business, butthey're actually not only for
the people who are in the sharedspace.
They're actually part of themain buildings.
We have to go out in the sharedspace and and it that's a
(29:39):
brilliant idea, but I'm thinkingthere'll be lots of businesses
in our position where they're inshared spaces.
Have you got any suggestions asto what they could do?
Susan Bright (29:49):
well, I think that's a fantastic opportunity
actually to speak to thebuilding owner and and to say
look, actually there's someinformation it would be really
great for everybody to be ableto access and could we
collectively use.
Put, put occasionally and youwant to do, you want to change
things around, obviously timesand you don't want anything that
(30:09):
sticks stays on all the timefor too long.
People it, people don't see itanymore, so but, but maybe
that's an opportunity to talk toother people in the building
about using using that space.
But, um, other ways of raisingawareness.
I mean, you know, if you've got, I mean you can have talks, you
can share podcasts.
There's also people like tohear things in different ways.
(30:30):
Some people will be listeningto this, watching this, whatever
.
But I think in a small business, if what you know just talking
about it openly and I mean mybusiness is very small, small we
have a domestic abuse policy.
Obviously be awful if we didn't.
But good to hear.
But but good to good to good totalk about it.
(30:51):
And in a bigger organization, um, having having people who are
in senior positions talkingabout it from time to time,
threading it into you know,their know their communications
written, or you know if they'redoing a town hall type meeting,
talking about these sorts ofissues and saying you know, we
(31:13):
pride ourselves on being a greatplace to work.
I just want to remind everybodythat we do take domestic abuse
very seriously.
We do take sexual harassment,in the worst case, really
seriously.
We've got processes around allof this.
I really want to encouragepeople.
If you need support, you mustcome forward and this is how you
do it and the person you speakto.
If you have senior people doingthat, people start to believe
that this is something that theorganisation really believes in.
(31:36):
Other things that we've founduseful is some employers talk
about you know on their theymight have a recruitment website
or space or and will actuallyshare that they have policy
around domestic abuse and otherthings that they offer, and the
anecdotal feedback from that isreally positive.
(31:57):
Ie gosh, you know that must bea really good place to work if
they have that sort of policy.
But, as I was saying, it'sbecause it's not a legal
requirement yet to have adomestic abuse policy.
It is really important for thatcontinual awareness raising
because people look, people come, people go, you get new
(32:17):
employees coming in and somaking sure that it's really out
there.
It's also about embedding itinto the business, because you
are asking about people notnecessarily realising that
there's a problem.
So a domestic abuse responsecan't depend.
(32:40):
It's not a campaign.
It needs to be threaded intoyour workplace response.
So the sorts of things that Iencourage businesses to think
about is well, think about thetouch points when somebody might
be more vulnerable.
So, um, you, you may or may notknow that domestic abuse can
(33:01):
often start or escalate whilesomeone is on maternity leave,
having having a child first timeor subsequent child.
So how about, you know?
Often people come back andthey'll have a return to work
conversation.
There could be a question inthere, so it's systematized
which is how's everything athome?
You know, just putting thingsinto your normal processes is
(33:26):
important.
When people are promoted, theyoften get training because
they're going to start managingpeople or more people, and will
be trained about various things.
Well, as part of that training,helping them to understand you
know when, when you'resupervising people, what sort of
questions might be asked.
What sort of things might youwant to find out about?
(33:49):
Putting something intosomebody's annual appraisal,
how's everything at home?
Because what we everyone findsis that if you proactively ask
at different points, it mayprompt somebody to feel
comfortable to come forward.
At different points.
It may prompt somebody to feelcomfortable to come forward.
A really observant manager whosays you know, look, I've
(34:09):
noticed that you're.
You know, I've noticed that youdon't seem quite yourself at
the moment.
Is there anything going on?
You know those sorts ofquestions Because often what can
happen uns unsurprisingly isthat somebody's work performance
will be going down because, asI say to people, if someone's
coping with all of this at home,how on earth can they possibly
(34:32):
be performing at their best atwork?
So the risk is that somebodygets into a performance type
review downward spiral and findsthemselves ultimately out of a
job, which just exacerbates thethe problems that they're in,
whereas if it's picked up andthe employer understands what's
going on and they can put somesupport mechanisms in place,
(34:52):
which might be a bit moreflexibility on when somebody
arrives leaves all sorts ofthings that can make a massive
difference.
Tamsin Caine (34:59):
Keeping people in employment, I think, is a real
win keeping people in employment, I think, is a real, is a real
win.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, becausequite often that's one, as you
said, that isolating behavior,the economic abuse is, can be
more difficult if they're in aworkplace because they are in
(35:19):
contact with other people andthey're they are able to earn
their own money, although,albeit, we know that that's not
necessarily ending up with them,but but at least it's a step in
the right direction.
Would you expect, if you're in,if you're experiencing or have
(35:39):
experienced domestic abuse,would you expect that person to
be able to speak to a linemanager?
Or would that be the firstthought of call if they didn't
know whether there was aspecific policy in the business
and the awareness kind of hadn'tbeen perhaps as good as it
should have been?
It would be a line manager yougo to first, do you?
Susan Bright (36:02):
think it would be a line manager you go to first,
do you think?
I suspect people probably talkto a friend or a colleague in
the business rather than a linemanager.
I think line managers it's morelikely to be the way around
where a line manager will spotsomething.
Tamsin Caine (36:19):
Because the line manager has that responsibility.
Susan Bright (36:22):
The line manager may spot something and start a
good line manager might spotsomething and start asking
questions and wanting to know ifsomebody needs some support.
But I think most people talk totheir mates and lots of people
have mates at work because wespend so much time there, and so
that's why raising awarenessmore generally is so important.
(36:43):
Raising awareness moregenerally is so important.
Um, obviously, hr people in hrneed to be sort of really well
aware of this and have extratraining and guidance, but
probably hr is not the firstport of call for most people.
Um, you know, people will tendto think of hr as, um, you know,
sort of doing, you know thegrievance processes and all
(37:04):
sorts of things like that yeahhr, hr can be incredibly
supportive.
All I'm saying is that they maynot be the first natural port of
call for somebody in thissituation.
So I think it's normallycolleagues, um, uh, and then you
know, being signposted to tosupport.
The big thing is that peopleshould not take it.
(37:25):
This is not about taking theresponse into into your own
hands so that you know, can havebeen.
I've heard stories of peopletrying to help too much, if you
see what I mean, um, and tryingto help remove, literally
physically help remove peoplefrom a challenging situation
that can be, that can be quitedangerous, and at the center of
(37:47):
all of this must be the safetyof the victim, survivor, their
children and also colleagues aswell.
So you know, our advice alwaysis if, if there's, if, if
there's a really dangeroussituation, ultimately, uh, you
may have to call the police, ofcourse, I mean that that
ultimately is a big thing, butbut again, ideally in in
(38:08):
discussion and consultation withthe individual,
absolutely we're coming to theend of our time together.
I feel like that's absolutelyflown um.
Before we go, I just want toask you if you can tell us, if
I'm an employer wanting to getthings put right that perhaps
(38:29):
aren't there at the moment,where do I go?
And secondly, if I'm somebodywho is employed but struggling
with an abusive relationship,what steps can I take?
abusive relationship.
What steps can I take?
So if you're an employer andwanting to put in place support,
(38:50):
come and join ida.
Membership is free.
As I say, we're funded by asmall group of employers, but
for everyone else it's it'sabsolutely free and gives access
to all of our resources,everything I've talked about
today, the guides we've gotguides for managers, guides for
champions, all sorts of thingsand the step-by-step way of
doing it.
So join IDA.
(39:11):
We can put into the resourcesthe link for the membership page
we will and that gives accessto all our resources and all our
events.
So do that.
And then, if you want more help,come and talk to us about what
you need to do.
If you're an individual who isconcerned about your own safety
(39:33):
and so forth and you don't knowif your employer has a policy,
you can go and find out and theymight be able to help you.
You can go and find out andthey might be able to help you.
But otherwise there's anational domestic abuse helpline
.
Get a friend to download BrightSky that I mentioned earlier
and that's just got endlessamounts of information and
(39:54):
support for you individually orif you're supporting somebody
else.
So that is what I would do Ifyou're concerned about your
safety, please, please, please,act is the most important thing.
So go to the police, go to goto your employer, go to a friend
yeah, absolutely.
Tamsin Caine (40:12):
Absolutely, Susan.
Thank you so much for your timetoday.
I find that incredibly usefuland sure those listening will
have done as well, and it wasbrilliant to have you join us.
Thank you for listening orwatching or reading.
It was great to have you withus.
If you have found this useful,please, um, give us a five-star
(40:33):
review, because that just helpsus to widen the net that this
podcast catches and hopefullywe'll be able to help some more
people that way.
Many thanks, thank you able tohelp some more people that way,
many thanks.
Thank you, hi, and I hope youenjoyed that episode of the
(40:55):
smart divorce podcast.
If you would like to get intouch, please have a look in the
show notes for our details orgo onto the website,
wwwsmartdivorcecouk.
Also, if you are listening onApple Podcasts or on Spotify and
you wouldn't mind leaving us alovely five-star review, that
would be fantastic.
I know that lots of ourlisteners are finding this is
incredibly helpful in theirjourney through separation,
(41:18):
divorce and dissolving a civilpartnership.
Also, if you would like somefurther support, we do have a
Facebook group now.
It's called Separation, divorceand Dissolution UK.
Please do go on to Facebook,search up the group and we'd be
delighted to have you join us.
The one thing I would say is doplease answer their membership
(41:42):
questions.
Okay, have a great day and takecare.
Welcome to series 10 of the Smart Divorce Podcast.
During this series, we're goingto be speaking about the
difficult subject of domesticabuse.
Unfortunately, during my work,I come across people who are
victim survivors of domesticabuse on a far too regular basis
.
So we're going to be talking tothose who have survived
(00:30):
themselves, to professionalsworking in this area, to
solicitors, to hopefully helpyou to find the right support if
you're in that situation.
This is an issue that's notgoing away.
So if you're going through thisor you know anybody who is, I
really hope this series helpedyou.
Thanks for listening.
(00:55):
Hello and welcome to the SmartDivorce Podcast.
I'm really pleased to be joinedtoday by Susan Bright.
Now, she's going to introduceherself properly in just a
second, but she is the CEO of Idon't know what you call it EIDA
, eida or I should be just usingthe initials, so I'm going to
let you tell me in a minute, butthey are the Employer
(01:19):
Initiative for Domestic Abuseand it's such a brilliant
organization.
They had a conference last weekwhich I'm hearing rave reviews
about from everybody whoattended and, um, crazily, I
know lots of people who whoattended, which is great.
So welcome, susan.
(01:39):
Thank you so much for joiningme today.
I think this is a massivelyimportant subject and I'm really
looking forward to speaking toyou.
Can you give us a bit ofinformation about what you do
and perhaps a bit about how yougot involved as well?
Susan Bright (01:54):
Brilliant.
Thanks, Tamsin.
Very much for inviting me.
It's great to get the feedbackabout the conference as well.
Quite an undertaking.
Yes, so I'm Susan Bright, theceo of the Employers Initiative
on Domestic Abuse.
We say ida, but some people sayada and other people use our
initials, and probably we reallyought to, um, get some
(02:16):
consistency there, but, um,that's, that's a bit of a
struggle, so, uh so EIDA is acharity.
We've been around since 2017and we do what it says on the
tin.
We're here to help employers tounderstand what domestic abuse
is and then to help theiremployees who are impacted by it
(02:39):
, and we were set up byElizabeth Filkin, who saw the
amazing work that was happeningacross the sector in terms of
supporting people, butrecognised that there wasn't
anything there for business orfor anyone who employs people.
(03:00):
And work for those who go towork and lots of people in this
country do, of course can be forpeople an escape from their
domestic situation.
It can be, for people, a safespace, and it can be a place
with the right culture where youcan come forward and seek
support.
But the issue is helpingemployers to understand what
(03:21):
domestic abuse is.
They do have a responsibilityfor their people and being able
to signpost people to thesupport that they need.
And if you can harness everyemployer across the country to
do that, think of the power ofit.
So that's the concept.
So it's very simple.
We only do four things.
In fact, we only have fouremployees, soon to be joined by
(03:42):
a fifth, so we're a tinyorganisation but we really punch
above our weight because wepartner with lots of other
people.
So we do four things.
The first is to raise awarenessof domestic abuse amongst
employers.
So really helping employers tounderstand what domestic abuse
is.
So that's the first thing.
The second thing, I'll comeback to all of those what
(04:04):
domestic abuse is.
So that's the first thing.
The second thing I'll come backto all of those we can unpack
it a bit, but the second thingis to give employers the tools
that they need in order tosupport their people impacted by
domestic abuse.
So, for example, we have adetailed we call it a handbook,
which takes employers throughunderstanding what domestic
abuse is, what their legalresponsibilities are, and then
(04:25):
how to a real how to introducean effective domestic abuse
policy.
So we can talk more about that.
And we also have a templatepolicy so people can take the
policy and they can top and tailit.
Lots of guidance.
So that's the tools, includingour events that people can come
to.
(04:45):
And then the third thing andactually I think the thing that
employers like the most isgetting employers together to
share their experience ofdomestic abuse and and
particular challenges.
So we might connect employerswho are in a particular industry
sector, for example, or bringthe employers together around a
particular topic.
So we have a group of what wecall our beacon members, who
(05:10):
actually fund our activity andwe regularly meet with them and
tackle some really quite trickyissues.
So during the course of thelast 12 months we've looked at
international policies forinternational businesses, for
example.
We've looked at language thatpeople might use and we've also
looked at international policiesfor international businesses,
for example, we've looked atlanguage that people might use
and we've also looked at what doyou do when you find you've got
a perpetrator of domestic abusein your business, and you can
(05:32):
imagine that's a reallycomplicated issue, so really
tricky.
So you bring those, those,those groups, together and then
the final thing we do is tocollaborate with anybody and
everybody, but particularly withgovernment, to help progress
the government's policy laws ondomestic abuse in this country.
(05:53):
We collaborate with the domesticabuse sector, so we don't
provide training, for example.
So you know, we connectemployers with people who
provide really excellenttraining.
We connect employers withpeople who provide really
excellent training.
We connect employers withpeople who provide other
services that could supportindividuals.
We also collaborate withacademics because we're really
(06:14):
keen to progress ourunderstanding about what works
and what doesn't work.
So that's the fourth thing thatwe do, and we now have around
nearly 1,800 employers acrossthe UK who belong to us, which
is a hell of a lot.
That's huge.
Which is absolutely huge, andcollectively, we only can do an
(06:38):
estimate, really, tamsin,because we ask people, how many
employees do you have?
People, how many employees doyou have?
Um, but we we've tended to say,we've we, that those employers
collectively employ about 25 ofthe uk workforce.
It's probably more than thatnow, but I would say probably 30
, but that that's an estimate,and some of them will be doing
lots, some of them will be earlyin their journey, uh, and it
(07:02):
really is a business issuethough, and we can talk a little
bit more about that, but that'swho we are and what we do.
We have, right at the heart ofeverything that we do, really
importantly, is the experienceof people who have had been
impacted by domestic abuse.
So, really importantly, all ourwork is informed by the
(07:22):
experience of people who havesuffered with domestic abuse,
and we've got 13,.
We call them ambassadors, sothey're individuals who
volunteer with us and they havetheir, our materials, our
(07:44):
resources to make sure thatthey're really authentic.
Whilst I can talk about factsand figures that one in four
(08:08):
women experience domestic abuse,one in six, seven men
experience domestic abuse, andwe can talk about the cost to
the economy, we can talk aboutthe cost of business, which is
17 billion pounds a year inEngland alone.
It's massive.
But actually the storytellingtimes in really matters because
I think that's the piece thatbrings this alive and helps to
(08:31):
open people's eyes to what isall around us but we're not
seeing.
Tamsin Caine (08:37):
I completely agree and my awareness has been
brought around by the work thatI do.
But I would absolutely hold myhands up and say not only did I
not really fully understand theextent that domestic abuse
impacts individuals, never mindemployers, et cetera but really
(09:05):
I don't think I really knew whatit was um and I naively and I
I've said this during thisseries many times because I
think it's important that thatthat people understand where I
am and where I was when Istarted working with debauching
um individuals and couples, Ihad very clearly said to the
(09:28):
lovely Karen Kipping um, who's afabulous divorce coach who
works in this area I probablywon't um have anybody who needs
your help, because I don'timagine that I'm likely to work
with people who um have been inabusive relationships, and that
was absolute nonsense.
(09:48):
Probably 80 plus and I've said75 before, but I actually think
it's more than that.
I think probably 80 pluspercent of the people that I
newly work with who are goingthrough divorce are leaving
abusive relationships, and so itimpacts me on a daily basis
just because I'm speaking topeople and and so it's become a
(10:11):
passion of mine to to helppeople, but also to to hopefully
help governments change and soon as well.
So, um, it's massivelyimportant and it struck me when
I heard about your initiativethat actually that's not.
Obviously, 30 percent of ofpeople employed hopefully have
(10:35):
employers who are already activein this space, but I suspect
there's there's numerous whoaren't aware that this is a
thing.
I've written a domestic abusepolicy for our business, but
it's a very small business.
I guess the thing that I wantedto ask you is is it little
(10:56):
businesses, everything up to thebiggest businesses in the
country, or are you finding thatyou're largely engaging with
the bigger businesses at themoment and it's almost going to
be a funnel working down to thesmaller ones as you move along?
Or is it just as soon as peoplefind out about you there?
Yeah, they're kind of coming upto you and saying let's get us
(11:19):
on there.
Susan Bright (11:20):
It's a mix actually.
So our membership currently,you know, is all sorts, from the
biggest organisations, you know, like Google's and Amazon's and
the Home Office and BP andpeople, vodafone, down to really
small businesses.
You know, recently we had aprimary school sign up, for
example.
Hello magazine has just signedup, for example.
(11:43):
So it's, it's, it's anyone andeveryone, but, you know, in
terms of really having an impact, clearly, if we're able to work
with bigger employers who havea bigger workforce, then we're
reaching more people morequickly.
But it is very much ourstrategy.
I mean, our vision is to haveevery UK employer taking action
(12:07):
on domestic abuse, and ourmaterials are prepared
deliberately for bigorganisations and for SMEs,
small and medium sizedenterprises, and also for, you
know, for the charity sector,for government departments, so
it's not just corporate business, if you see what I mean.
So our materials could be usedby, you know, small businesses
(12:29):
too.
So in our handbook we have asection in quite a long section
that goes through how do you ifyou're a big business, and then
we have a separate section,which is a shorter version, for
small businesses and I'vewritten guides for really,
really simple.
These are the five things youneed to do or whatever.
So it really is and can be foreverybody.
(12:52):
But I think the awareness, whatyou were saying about not
realizing I was saying saying weall have assumptions about
domestic abuse and before Ijoined EIDA a couple of years
ago, I was the managing partner.
I had been the managing partnerat Hogan Ubbles, which is a big
, big law firm, global law firm,and in that role I had led the
(13:15):
introduction of the firm'sdomestic abuse policy a few
years ago.
And that's where I met EIDA,because they helped us to do
that.
And you know, I hadpreconceptions about domestic
abuse.
I assumed it was, you know,more physical violence between a
couple.
But it's so much broader thanthat.
I mean the legal definition inthe now Domestic Abuse Act.
(13:38):
It's about abuse between peoplewho are connected, who are both
16 years or older, and so thatincludes not only those, you
know, partner type relationships, whether you're married or not
married, same sex, whatever, butit also includes, you know,
teenage relationships.
(13:58):
So, for example, you know, orrelationships between children
and parents, as long as thechild is over 16, or people you
know we forget, older people aswell, you know.
So there can be abuse betweensiblings In some communities.
Um, I have learned that, um,you know, mother-in-law,
(14:21):
daughter-in-law abuse is is areal issue.
So it's, it's any familyrelationship, whether whether
you're living to together in thesame household, or or it now
extends also to you know, wherepeople have, have left a
relationship and are separate,so you have have, you know, that
, post-separation abuse that cancarry on for years.
(14:43):
So, first of all, it affects allsorts of different
relationships and then, secondly, it's the nature of abuse,
because a lot of people havethis vision, a lot of employers
have this vision that it'sphysical violence, and sometimes
it is, but at the heart of it,as you know, and sometimes it is
, but at the heart of it, as youknow, it's about control, and
(15:04):
we now have a criminal offenceof coercive and controlling
behaviour, which came in in 2015.
But that's really at the centreof it and abuse can.
Then it can be around isolatingpeople from their family and
friends.
It can be about economic abuse.
I mean some of the stories.
Honestly, it's amazing thatI've heard about how people are
controlled and not able to spendany money or have the things
(15:27):
that money can buy, and it'susing children to abuse, pets to
abuse.
I mean it's everything andreally so many people have said
to me that the the psychological, the controlling behavior is is
so damaging, and sometimes moredamaging than the the physical,
physical abuse which may or maynot be present, and so it's.
(15:52):
So it's two things.
It's it's a much wider set ofrelationships, I think, than we,
we naturally think, and it's amuch broader set of behaviours,
but it's hard to control.
So when we brought in, I had thesame experience when we brought
in the domestic abuse policy atHogan Novels, you know, some
people did say but why are wedoing this?
Nobody, you know, nobody whoworks in a place like this is
(16:13):
going to have experienceddomestic abuse.
And of course, what we found,sadly, when we brought in our
policy was, first of all, peoplewould come forward to say they
did, come forward to say we areso pleased you're talking about
this because it's so stigmatized, there's so much of a sense of
shame.
The fact that theorganization's talking about
this and is offering to help ismassive.
(16:35):
And then we did have peoplecoming forward to seek the
support that our policy offered.
So that really taught me, youknow, it really opened my eyes
up and also showed me the valuethat an organisation, employer
can have if it has the rightculture so people feel able to
(16:57):
come forward.
And even if they don't feelable to come forward, if you're
providing that through yourbusiness, you're providing
awareness and raising awarenessamongst your employees somebody
might at least take theinformation and go themselves to
seek external expert supportand they may also be able to
recognise.
You know the signs in family andfriends and that sort of thing,
(17:18):
but doing this job.
You know when people, whenfriends and that sort of thing,
but doing this job.
You know when people, when Iused to be a lawyer, um, you
know people used to say, well,what do you do?
And I say I'm a lawyer, and Iglaze over.
And now I say now I say whatI'm doing, I I almost every time
that I'm a social event ormeeting people in a sort of
(17:40):
slightly larger group and I tellpeople what I do, almost every
time somebody will come up to mequietly at some point and say
can I just share with you whathappened to me?
It's everywhere, tamsin, it'severywhere.
And so you know I'm absolutelypassionate about helping
businesses to do something aboutit and also it's important for
(18:02):
businesses to know that they dohave a legal responsibility to
do something about it.
So we've got this DomesticAbuse Act, which came in in 2021
, and there's some statutoryguidance.
So I'm being a lawyer now.
Now there's some statutoryguidance that sits alongside it,
which has a little sectionabout employees and makes it
(18:26):
clear that there are obviouslyhealth and safety obligations on
employers and employers alsohave a common law duty of care
to their employees.
And it explicitly says and thisextends to supporting employees
who are impacted by domesticabuse, and this extends to
supporting employees who areimpacted by domestic abuse.
And that guidance recommendsthat businesses have policies
and processes to support people.
(18:47):
And one thing I think is really, really important is it's not
about a business becoming anexpert in domestic abuse.
That's not what we're about andthat would be inappropriate,
but what it is about is helping.
We talk not what we're about,and that would be inappropriate,
but what it is about is helping.
We talk about a three-hourframework.
So it's about helping abusiness and their employees to
(19:07):
do three things One is torecognise the first hour,
recognise the signs of domesticabuse.
The second is to respondappropriately.
And the third is to refer tothe expert support that's
available.
So recognising the signs can bereally quite hard, because
victims and survivors ofdomestic abuse will often hide
that, they may not be ready toshare, may not even realise that
(19:30):
they are experiencing domesticabuse.
I expect you've come acrossthat numerous times.
Yeah, yeah, yes.
So one of the things that quitehelps with that is there's, um,
there's a wheel, uh called theDuluth wheel.
That was created quite a longtime ago, comes in different,
different, um, different uhtypes, but it basically puts
(19:52):
it's, it's a picture which putsparent control at the middle and
then has different segments oftypes of abuse, and I think that
can be a really helpful toolfor people to look at.
And I've had so people say tome, looking at, I can suddenly
see, yeah, I'm experiencing thatbehavior and that behavior and
that behavior and it sort ofopens their eyes to it.
So recognizing the signs notalways easy, but usually it's
(20:17):
changes in behavior.
So if somebody used to come tolots of events after work, but
suddenly they're going home,their attendance is different,
they're constantly beinginterrupted at work with
telephone calls or whateverthey're anxious to get home on
time that sort of thing can be asign.
And then how you respond isreally important because, as I'm
(20:39):
sure you know, it is incrediblydifficult for somebody to come
forward and seek support andhelp or even to accept that
that's what they're goingthrough, and so the response is
key and believing people isreally important, because it's
disastrous to say something like, but are you really sure?
Or but he seems so charming, orshe seems so lovely, etc.
(21:02):
Or why don't you just leave, isa common response, which is a
very difficult thing for peopleto do.
So responding appropriately andthen referring to expert
support.
So if an employer has broughtin support within the business,
referring somebody to thesupport available in the
(21:24):
business, so bigger businessesmay have counselling services
and other support that might behelpful, and then, of course,
also the business having theknowledge about the external
support that's available, thenational helplines and so on,
support that's available, thenational helplines, and so on.
There's a fantastic um appcalled bright sky which anyone
can download from the web's web.
(21:45):
You know the web store,whatever it's called, the app
store, sorry and um or you canaccess it online and the bright
sky app has on it uh,information about what domestic
abuse is.
You can do a little, you know,quiz.
It's got a lot of informationto support people impacted by
(22:06):
domestic abuse, and also it hasa fantastic directory which you
can put in your postcode ofwhere you are and it will then
bring up the services that arelocal, really, really useful, I
find if somebody is in adangerous situation, they may
not wish to, just as asafeguarding issue, may not be
able to download it onto theirphone, but maybe a friend can.
Tamsin Caine (22:26):
yeah, yeah absolutely, that's brilliant.
I didn't know about that.
We'll um.
We'll pop a note in the shownotes for for bright, bright sky
right, good, bright sky.
Susan Bright (22:37):
It's um a collaboration between hestia,
which is a domestic abusecharity, and the Vodafone
Foundation, who funded it, andit's available here in the UK
lots of different languages aswell, which is super useful and
international employers.
It is also available now insome other countries as well, so
very useful.
Tamsin Caine (22:54):
That's fantastic what a brilliant app because it
is finding sometimes finding thelocal domestic abuse services
is tricky if they're not kind ofout there and making a lot of
noise.
I mean that's brilliant.
I like the three R's.
That's nice and simple.
(23:15):
People can kind of get theirheads around that.
People can kind of get theirheads around that is that.
So if and as you say, lots ofpeople have no idea that they
have been experiencing domesticabuse.
We had a conversation with thisabout with somebody on linkedin
actually this morning, andsomebody had said that it's
(23:36):
important to understand thatpeople don't always recognize it
because it feels normal to them, yeah, and that because it's
important to understand thatpeople don't always recognize it
because it feels normal to them, yeah, and that because it's
quite often because it's aboutcontrolling behavior and the
people that are the perpetratorsare quite often quite devious
and it it slowly encroaches onthe relationship, it slowly
(24:00):
creeps up.
It's tiny changes in behaviorover a sustained period of time.
If somebody went from beingprince charming to punching you
in the face, it's quite clearbut this isn't always that this
is quite often just small, tinychanges over a very long period
(24:24):
of time where this is normal toyou and and this is how you've
come to live and actually Ithink the reason that I deal
with lots of people who aresuddenly realizing that they're
leaving an abusive relationshipis because it's the having left
that suddenly makes it clearthat what was happening actually
(24:47):
wasn't what ought to be normal,even though it was their normal
.
I hope that makes some sort ofsense.
But if, if somebody is in thisin a position where they've
they've realised that thingshaven't been great for them and
that they have realised thatthey've been in an abusive
(25:08):
relationship, whether they'restill in it or whether they have
managed successfully to leaveit and are in a post-separation
situation, if they don't know,if their employer's got a
domestic abuse policy, who arethey going to?
Who should they approach where?
(25:28):
Where would it be normal tofind a domestic abuse policy if,
if there was one in fact, inthem in with the employer?
Susan Bright (25:36):
lots of questions there yes, um, so I'll try and
pick my way through some ofthose.
So, um, it's it.
So we're encouraging everyemployer to have a policy or
written guidance.
Um, ideally a policy, but somebusinesses there are lots of
hoops to go through to have anactual formal policy.
(25:58):
But something written down isreally important and the reason
that we recommend that isbecause people have been in a
situation where they arecontrolled.
Having some control iscritically important.
So you are much more likely toseek help if you know what is
going to happen to you and ifyou are able to control the
(26:19):
consequences of coming forward.
So having something writtendown very clearly explains to a
person well, this is thebusiness doesn't tolerate
domestic abuse.
If I come forward, this is thetype of support I mean.
Obviously it flexes, but thisis the type of support that I
can expect, etc.
Type of support that I canexpect, et cetera.
And the fact it's written downand available also maybe helps
(26:46):
to take away that for somepeople, that real sense of
stigma and shame.
So the fact it's being talkedabout openly within an
organisation it's like mentalwellbeing.
You know, 15 years ago nobodywould talk about that in the
workplace.
But you know, once people starttalking about it, it is easier
to have those conversations, sohaving it written down is really
important.
The last time there was a surveyto see how many businesses in
(27:08):
the UK had a domestic abusepolicy was back in about 2019.
And that was carried out by theVodafone Foundation, and at
that point, only about 5% oforganisations had something.
I want to do another survey nowto see, because it would have
got a lot better.
But even where your businesshas a domestic abuse policy, you
(27:30):
still need it's reallyimportant to talk about it and
to keep raising awareness,because people won't necessarily
know that you have one or to goand look for it.
We all know that anorganisation will have a
sickness policy or a maternityleave policy, because those are
things that an employer musthave, but at the moment, there
(27:51):
is no obligation to have adomestic abuse policy.
Maybe that will come someday,but it's certainly best practice
.
But people don't know.
If you don't know, if you don'tthink about it, don't know
about it, and so that's why it'sso important for employers
regularly to be reminding peoplethat they do have a policy,
they do have a response, theyare able to support people.
(28:14):
That awareness piece is reallyimportant, and how a business
raises awareness is alsoimportant.
There's nothing better, frankly, than the old fashioned way of
you know having a poster on theback of a toilet door.
Frankly, because that's aprivate space.
If you have a nice awarenessraising poster with a QR code,
(28:36):
or you know information aboutwhere to go within the business
or outside the business QR code,or you know information about
where to go within the businessor outside the business, do you
know what?
That's probably one of the mostuseful things, because if you
have that same information on ayou know, next to the coffee
point or on your intranet site,it may be harder for you don't
necessarily want to stand thereand take down the information
when your mates are watching you.
Tamsin Caine (28:54):
That's interesting .
I'm thinking as you're talkingabout that.
We have a shared office spaceand I think lots of businesses
are in this position now.
So we have a desk in abeautiful mill building where
lots of different businesses areall together, and our toilets
(29:17):
are not public, but they'republic to their own side of the
building.
They're not public public butthey're public to the their own
by the building and they're noteven in, never mind being not
only for our business, butthey're actually not only for
the people who are in the sharedspace.
They're actually part of themain buildings.
We have to go out in the sharedspace and and it that's a
(29:39):
brilliant idea, but I'm thinkingthere'll be lots of businesses
in our position where they're inshared spaces.
Have you got any suggestions asto what they could do?
Susan Bright (29:49):
well, I think that's a fantastic opportunity
actually to speak to thebuilding owner and and to say
look, actually there's someinformation it would be really
great for everybody to be ableto access and could we
collectively use.
Put, put occasionally and youwant to do, you want to change
things around, obviously timesand you don't want anything that
(30:09):
sticks stays on all the timefor too long.
People it, people don't see itanymore, so but, but maybe
that's an opportunity to talk toother people in the building
about using using that space.
But, um, other ways of raisingawareness.
I mean, you know, if you've got, I mean you can have talks, you
can share podcasts.
There's also people like tohear things in different ways.
(30:30):
Some people will be listeningto this, watching this, whatever
.
But I think in a small business, if what you know just talking
about it openly and I mean mybusiness is very small, small we
have a domestic abuse policy.
Obviously be awful if we didn't.
But good to hear.
But but good to good to good totalk about it.
(30:51):
And in a bigger organization, um, having having people who are
in senior positions talkingabout it from time to time,
threading it into you know,their know their communications
written, or you know if they'redoing a town hall type meeting,
talking about these sorts ofissues and saying you know, we
(31:13):
pride ourselves on being a greatplace to work.
I just want to remind everybodythat we do take domestic abuse
very seriously.
We do take sexual harassment,in the worst case, really
seriously.
We've got processes around allof this.
I really want to encouragepeople.
If you need support, you mustcome forward and this is how you
do it and the person you speakto.
If you have senior people doingthat, people start to believe
that this is something that theorganisation really believes in.
(31:36):
Other things that we've founduseful is some employers talk
about you know on their theymight have a recruitment website
or space or and will actuallyshare that they have policy
around domestic abuse and otherthings that they offer, and the
anecdotal feedback from that isreally positive.
(31:57):
Ie gosh, you know that must bea really good place to work if
they have that sort of policy.
But, as I was saying, it'sbecause it's not a legal
requirement yet to have adomestic abuse policy.
It is really important for thatcontinual awareness raising
because people look, people come, people go, you get new
(32:17):
employees coming in and somaking sure that it's really out
there.
It's also about embedding itinto the business, because you
are asking about people notnecessarily realising that
there's a problem.
So a domestic abuse responsecan't depend.
(32:40):
It's not a campaign.
It needs to be threaded intoyour workplace response.
So the sorts of things that Iencourage businesses to think
about is well, think about thetouch points when somebody might
be more vulnerable.
So, um, you, you may or may notknow that domestic abuse can
(33:01):
often start or escalate whilesomeone is on maternity leave,
having having a child first timeor subsequent child.
So how about, you know?
Often people come back andthey'll have a return to work
conversation.
There could be a question inthere, so it's systematized
which is how's everything athome?
You know, just putting thingsinto your normal processes is
(33:26):
important.
When people are promoted, theyoften get training because
they're going to start managingpeople or more people, and will
be trained about various things.
Well, as part of that training,helping them to understand you
know when, when you'resupervising people, what sort of
questions might be asked.
What sort of things might youwant to find out about?
(33:49):
Putting something intosomebody's annual appraisal,
how's everything at home?
Because what we everyone findsis that if you proactively ask
at different points, it mayprompt somebody to feel
comfortable to come forward.
At different points.
It may prompt somebody to feelcomfortable to come forward.
A really observant manager whosays you know, look, I've
(34:09):
noticed that you're.
You know, I've noticed that youdon't seem quite yourself at
the moment.
Is there anything going on?
You know those sorts ofquestions Because often what can
happen uns unsurprisingly isthat somebody's work performance
will be going down because, asI say to people, if someone's
coping with all of this at home,how on earth can they possibly
(34:32):
be performing at their best atwork?
So the risk is that somebodygets into a performance type
review downward spiral and findsthemselves ultimately out of a
job, which just exacerbates thethe problems that they're in,
whereas if it's picked up andthe employer understands what's
going on and they can put somesupport mechanisms in place,
(34:52):
which might be a bit moreflexibility on when somebody
arrives leaves all sorts ofthings that can make a massive
difference.
Tamsin Caine (34:59):
Keeping people in employment, I think, is a real
win keeping people in employment, I think, is a real, is a real
win.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, becausequite often that's one, as you
said, that isolating behavior,the economic abuse is, can be
more difficult if they're in aworkplace because they are in
(35:19):
contact with other people andthey're they are able to earn
their own money, although,albeit, we know that that's not
necessarily ending up with them,but but at least it's a step in
the right direction.
Would you expect, if you're in,if you're experiencing or have
(35:39):
experienced domestic abuse,would you expect that person to
be able to speak to a linemanager?
Or would that be the firstthought of call if they didn't
know whether there was aspecific policy in the business
and the awareness kind of hadn'tbeen perhaps as good as it
should have been?
It would be a line manager yougo to first, do you?
Susan Bright (36:02):
think it would be a line manager you go to first,
do you think?
I suspect people probably talkto a friend or a colleague in
the business rather than a linemanager.
I think line managers it's morelikely to be the way around
where a line manager will spotsomething.
Tamsin Caine (36:19):
Because the line manager has that responsibility.
Susan Bright (36:22):
The line manager may spot something and start a
good line manager might spotsomething and start asking
questions and wanting to know ifsomebody needs some support.
But I think most people talk totheir mates and lots of people
have mates at work because wespend so much time there, and so
that's why raising awarenessmore generally is so important.
(36:43):
Raising awareness moregenerally is so important.
Um, obviously, hr people in hrneed to be sort of really well
aware of this and have extratraining and guidance, but
probably hr is not the firstport of call for most people.
Um, you know, people will tendto think of hr as, um, you know,
sort of doing, you know thegrievance processes and all
(37:04):
sorts of things like that yeahhr, hr can be incredibly
supportive.
All I'm saying is that they maynot be the first natural port of
call for somebody in thissituation.
So I think it's normallycolleagues, um, uh, and then you
know, being signposted to tosupport.
The big thing is that peopleshould not take it.
(37:25):
This is not about taking theresponse into into your own
hands so that you know, can havebeen.
I've heard stories of peopletrying to help too much, if you
see what I mean, um, and tryingto help remove, literally
physically help remove peoplefrom a challenging situation
that can be, that can be quitedangerous, and at the center of
(37:47):
all of this must be the safetyof the victim, survivor, their
children and also colleagues aswell.
So you know, our advice alwaysis if, if there's, if, if
there's a really dangeroussituation, ultimately, uh, you
may have to call the police, ofcourse, I mean that that
ultimately is a big thing, butbut again, ideally in in
(38:08):
discussion and consultation withthe individual,
absolutely we're coming to theend of our time together.
I feel like that's absolutelyflown um.
Before we go, I just want toask you if you can tell us, if
I'm an employer wanting to getthings put right that perhaps
(38:29):
aren't there at the moment,where do I go?
And secondly, if I'm somebodywho is employed but struggling
with an abusive relationship,what steps can I take?
abusive relationship.
What steps can I take?
So if you're an employer andwanting to put in place support,
(38:50):
come and join ida.
Membership is free.
As I say, we're funded by asmall group of employers, but
for everyone else it's it'sabsolutely free and gives access
to all of our resources,everything I've talked about
today, the guides we've gotguides for managers, guides for
champions, all sorts of thingsand the step-by-step way of
doing it.
So join IDA.
(39:11):
We can put into the resourcesthe link for the membership page
we will and that gives accessto all our resources and all our
events.
So do that.
And then, if you want more help,come and talk to us about what
you need to do.
If you're an individual who isconcerned about your own safety
(39:33):
and so forth and you don't knowif your employer has a policy,
you can go and find out and theymight be able to help you.
You can go and find out andthey might be able to help you.
But otherwise there's anational domestic abuse helpline
.
Get a friend to download BrightSky that I mentioned earlier
and that's just got endlessamounts of information and
(39:54):
support for you individually orif you're supporting somebody
else.
So that is what I would do Ifyou're concerned about your
safety, please, please, please,act is the most important thing.
So go to the police, go to goto your employer, go to a friend
yeah, absolutely.
Tamsin Caine (40:12):
Absolutely, Susan.
Thank you so much for your timetoday.
I find that incredibly usefuland sure those listening will
have done as well, and it wasbrilliant to have you join us.
Thank you for listening orwatching or reading.
It was great to have you withus.
If you have found this useful,please, um, give us a five-star
(40:33):
review, because that just helpsus to widen the net that this
podcast catches and hopefullywe'll be able to help some more
people that way.
Many thanks, thank you able tohelp some more people that way,
many thanks.
Thank you, hi, and I hope youenjoyed that episode of the
(40:55):
smart divorce podcast.
If you would like to get intouch, please have a look in the
show notes for our details orgo onto the website,
wwwsmartdivorcecouk.
Also, if you are listening onApple Podcasts or on Spotify and
you wouldn't mind leaving us alovely five-star review, that
would be fantastic.
I know that lots of ourlisteners are finding this is
incredibly helpful in theirjourney through separation,
(41:18):
divorce and dissolving a civilpartnership.
Also, if you would like somefurther support, we do have a
Facebook group now.
It's called Separation, divorceand Dissolution UK.
Please do go on to Facebook,search up the group and we'd be
delighted to have you join us.
The one thing I would say is doplease answer their membership
(41:42):
questions.
Okay, have a great day and takecare.
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