March 21, 2025 • 45 mins
This week family solicitor Karen Gray and divorce coach Sarah Steele join Tamsin to share their expertise on supporting domestic abuse survivors through divorce and separation, highlighting the vital importance of emotional support alongside legal guidance.
Sarah Steele
Sarah is an Accredited Breakup and Divorce Master Practitioner, ICF life Coach and NLP Practitioner. Sarah supports men and women navigate the emotional and practical complexities of their breakup or divorce. She specialises in supporting both men and women in abusive relationships, helping her clients to rebuild their resilience, confidence, effectively manage conflict and offers them practical strategies to safely exit the relationships, and create a life post breakup they deserve.
sarahsteelecoaching.com
sarah@sarahsteelecoaching.com
Karen Gray
"I have a keen interest in cases which feature domestic abuse and work closely with local refuges in the local area and also, further afield. I have a wealth of knowledge and expertise in this area and able to advise on obtaining protective orders, for example, non-molestation orders and occupation orders and am able to signpost people to obtain the support that they need to be able to deal with the trauma that is experienced.
I have dealt with numerous cases involving physical, emotional, psychological and sexual abuse and coercive and controlling behaviour. I have also represented many parents, grandparents and wider family members in complex children matters featuring domestic abuse.
I have Law Society Advanced Accreditation specialising in Children Law and Violence in the Home and am also a member of Resolution."
https://www.pathway-project.co.uk/
https://chadd.org/
===
Tamsin Caine
Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.
You can contact Tamsin at tamsin@smartdivorce.co.uk or arrange a free initial meeting using https://bit.ly/SmDiv15min. She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK
Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS
Chartered Financial Planner
https://smartdivorce.co.uk
P.S. I am the co-author of “My Divorce Handbook – It’s What You Do Next That Counts”, written by divorce specialists and lawyers writing about their area of expertise to help walk you through the divorce process. You can buy it here https://yourdivorcehandbook.co.uk/buy-the-book/
To learn more about our podcast sponsor Ampla Finance – access their product guide here: https://bit.ly/3Ieqmuc
Or complete enquiry form https://bit.ly/3W4J7pz and one of the team will be in touch.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tamsin Caine (00:06):
Welcome to series 10 of the Smart Divorce Podcast.
During this series, we're goingto be speaking about the
difficult subject of domesticabuse.
Unfortunately, during my work,I come across people who are
victim survivors of domesticabuse on a far too regular basis
.
So we're going to be talking tothose who have survived
(00:30):
themselves, to professionalsworking in this area, to
solicitors, to hopefully helpyou to find the right support if
you're in that situation.
This is an issue that's notgoing away, so so if you're
going through this or you knowanybody who is, I really hope
this series helped you.
Thanks for listening.
(00:55):
Hello and welcome to today'sepisode of the Smart Divorce
Podcast, something a little bitdifferent in this series today,
because I have two guests and wevery rarely have two guests on
because my menopausal braindoesn't work terribly well with
talking to two people at thesame time, so wish me luck.
(01:16):
I'm delighted to welcome thelovely Sarah Steele, who is a
divorce coach, and Karen Gray,who is a family solicitor.
I'm going to let them introducethemselves in a lot more detail
, but both of them work withclients who are in abusive
relationships as well as otherpeople, so I wanted them to come
(01:38):
on and talk a bit about howthey support people in those
relationships.
So I'm going to start with you,Sarah, if that's okay.
Can you tell us a bit aboutyour role as a divorce coach in
divorce and helping people whoare leaving domestic abuse
relationships?
Sarah Steele (01:56):
Yeah, certainly.
Well, I'm an accredited divorcecoach and I train with Sarah
Davison, where I also did mymaster practitioner, which is
all about supporting both menand women who are in abusive
relationships.
So that's sort of where I'vedrawn my experience from, and
her tools and strategies,obviously.
So, as a divorce coach who dealswith clients who are in abusive
relationship, you know it's avery complex and overwhelming
(02:19):
process of you know, of leavingan abusive relationship, and my
role involves offering, you know, emotional support, helping
clients rebuild their resilience, their confidence, manage their
emotions, manage conflict, andoffer them practical strategies,
and, you know, to help themsafely exit relationships.
So I basically serve as a guide, as a supporter, as a cheerlead
(02:40):
and a strategist really.
But obviously, when you'redealing with clients who are in
abusive relationships, itrequires a very deep
understanding of the unique, umyou know, challenges faced by
survivors.
So, um, you know, what I do isI see men and women, um, and I
tend to get my referrals eitherword of mouth, um, via karen or
via a lot by my networkingmeetings actually.
(03:02):
So, um, it's quite privilegedactually to deal with uh, you
know clients who are in abusiverelationships, because it takes
an awful lot of courage for themto reach out and and ask for
help um.
So So it's a very unique umposition I find myself in um,
but it's one I find a hugelyrewarding
Tamsin Caine (03:21):
absolutely, um, and we'll come back to talk in a
little bit more detail abouthow and when, but I think it's
it's important to say you're adivorce coach, not a therapist,
aren't you?
And sometimes people might needa therapist as well.
It's, you're not replacing that,,
Sarah Steele (03:41):
okay, so I very much deal with the emotional
side and the practical.
You know complexities that areinvolved in that process, but
it's all about empowering myclients, building their,
building their confidence andI'm there to, you know, build
their confidence and theirresilience so they can make
decisions, learn to makedecisions for themselves, moving
forward, and that's reallyimportant.
You know generally life,especially through the legal
(04:04):
process, but it's the courageand the strength that we draw on
together in our sessions.
Tamsin Caine (04:11):
Yeah Confidence and resilience is so often
knocked, particularly when youhave been the subject of abuse
throughout your relationship,which you thought was a trusted
relationship.
Sarah Steele (04:25):
So that's really important.
We often hear this world youknow this word that clients
describing themselves as feelingannihilated and they do.
They feel completelyannihilated.
Um, you know the shells ofthemselves.
So you know, whilst divorce isan enormously you know traumatic
event in anybody's life, um, todeal with the abuse side of it
as well, um, and to actuallysort of come out the other end,
obviously I like working withclients post their divorce as
(04:48):
well, just to build them up andto see them sort of go right
from the basis of a feeling theycan't even decide what they
want for breakfast to a life forthemselves outside their
relationship, is quite something.
Tamsin Caine (05:05):
Absolutely.
It's a real privilege, isn't itit, to work with people
post-divorce, and I I feel I'dfeel a slight tinge of sympathy
for um, the poor divorcesolicitors who don't get to see
that so much, because their rolekind of stops when they're when
the divorce stops.
I'll bring you in at that point, Karen, and can you tell me a
(05:28):
little bit about the work thatyou do?
Karen Gray (05:31):
Yeah, I'm a family lawyer and I specialise in cases
that feature domestic abuse andI do the normal family lawyer
finance, divorce, Childrenmatters predominantly.
And I'm accredited for I have alaw society accreditation that
(05:54):
specialises in domestic abusecases and also children matters
featuring domestic abuse.
And I also work alongside.
I work with Pathway Project andChad Women's Refuges.
Um, that I can go into a bitmore detail in a bit um, but I
(06:15):
work closely with them,providing legal advice to them
and helping them and alsobringing Sarah as a divorce
coach into those dynamics tosupport legally and emotionally
the clients me from the legalside of view point of view and
(06:38):
Sarah to help emotionally sothat we can ensure that their
rights are protected.
And Sarah can help with theemotional side of that and guide
them through that and supportthem
absolutely it's.
It's it's really important andI think so many people don't
understand that you need it'snot just about legal advice when
(07:00):
you're getting divorced, youneed the emotional support, you
need the financial advice andyou need the the legal advice as
well.
And and to have that thattriangle funny, because we're
sat in the triangle, but to havethat triangle all covered is it
is absolutely perfect, isn't it, I guess?
I guess it would be useful.
I'm going to start with you,karen, because I'm oh, I might
(07:24):
be making an assumption that'snot actually true here.
I was going to start with you,Karen, because I'm, oh, I might
be making an assumption that'snot actually true here.
I was going to say I assumethat people come to you first
generally.
Um, Karen, so I was going toask you how you would approach a
case and and ensure thatclients are prepared and
protected, and then and thenpass on to Sarah about when
she's brought in and how sheworks with clients.
(07:53):
.
Well, I suppose really, thatclients come to us and they have
a lot of, shall I say, andpicking that needs to be done,
and I think that once they kindof know what rights they have
and we can take steps to go downthe legal route of what we need
to get, whether it's in, youknow, injunctive relief or
anything, protective orders, ormake an application for, you
(08:17):
know, urgent spas or maintenanceor anything like that, and that
Sarah can I recommend her tomany of my clients that there's
an option for them to contacther or we can.
Sarah can contact them directlyso that they can make the right
decisions, because it's quite along process really, They often
(08:37):
find that they are not able toremember all the finite details.
So Sarah kind of can help them,kind of sort their minds out
(08:59):
and prepare them so that theycan give good instructions, so
that when they come and see methat they're kind of focused on
that appointment, so that we canget all the legal stuff done.
So it's cost effective for themeffectively as well, and
they've got emotional support.
Tamsin Caine (09:14):
So many people do use their solicitors as an
emotional crutch and reallythat's, with all due respect,
not the right place to be goingfor your emotional support.
Karen Gray (09:27):
I think you have to have a certain sort of you have
to have that empathy, of courseyou know, but it's it's good
that I mean at one time yearsago, when I was a young slipper
thing, basically people it wasmore physical abuse and they
used to come into the office andthey used to say you know he's
hit me, but then it was the timewhen you used to have to say
(09:51):
I'm really sorry, but thereneeds to be blood dripping on
the carpet and do you need towait for him to hit you again?
That those that's you know.
That's going back a few yearsago.
But now there's all sorts ofthe physical, sexual,
psychological, emotional abusethat everybody is now aware of.
(10:13):
That needs to be that'sconstant and ongoing.
That having somebody like Sarahavailable can help them with
that, because it's quitetraumatic to deal with as
they're going through theseparation and the legal route.
Tamsin Caine (10:31):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And, Sarah, how do you come in?
How do you approach workingwith somebody who's been in an
abusive relationship, which Iguess you know?
I just heard Karen talk aboutthe physical side of things.
You know, I work a lot withpeople who've been economically
(10:53):
abused and financially abusedand the long and short bit is
it's all power struggle, isn'tit?
It's all down to coercivecontrol.
It's somebody wanting to havepower over another person.
So how do you work?
Where do you start?
Sarah Steele (11:08):
I mean basically, as I say, you know, I offer
emotional support andempowerment, um, and divorce
from an abusive partner is notjust a legal separation but it's
also a journey, a journey ofreclaiming their self-worth and
their autonomy.
So the most important thing Ido, first of all, is just to
listen, you know, to listen tothem.
Obviously, I offer a free 20minute call.
That might not even happen.
(11:28):
We might go into my firstsession, which is usually an
hour and a half, and a lot ofthat is just listening, because
it might be the first time thatthat person, a man or woman, has
felt, seen or heard orvalidated or believed.
And it's just so important toinvite them to open up and share
in an honest, in an honest way,you know, in a safe and
(11:50):
non-judgmental space, um, toexpress, you know, their fears,
their frustrations and their andtheir concerns and their doubts
.
Um, because quite a few of themdon't actually know they've
actually been in an abusiverelationship and they don't
understand why they're feelinglike they're feeling.
Yes, divorce is is verytraumatic, but you've got
another, it's another level whenyou've been in an abusive
(12:10):
relationship.
So I help them to recognize andvalidate their experiences, um,
you know, which may have beendismissed or minimized by the
abuser or even family members.
They might have tried toexpress concerns if they're
fortunate enough to still haveconnections with their family
and the family might have.
Um, you express concerns ifthey're fortunate enough to
still have connections withtheir family and the family
might have belittled.
That again, you know, and thatI've heard quite a bit.
(12:30):
So you know, my whole aim is toempower my clients by, as I say
, building their confidence,reinforcing their ability to
make decisions for themselves.
But there's a lot abouteducation and awareness, because
if you've got, you know quiteclearly, when you're listening
(12:51):
to them and you're taking notes,I always tell them I'm taking
notes and you're hearing abouttheir experiences, the behaviors
they've been subjected to.
They think that's normal.
But and it's bringing that,it's bringing that awareness to
the client that that's notnormal, that's not acceptable.
But it's the way that you do itand it has to be very, very
carefully and sensitivelybrought to light, if you like.
(13:13):
So it's listening and then alsohelping education, how I help
my clients understand how theybecame to be in an abusive
relationship, because I've hadclients who have been
businesswomen.
Businessmen understand, youknow, over 20 years, how they've
let that be.
You know, I had a client I'mworking with a client at the
moment, you know, in a businesswith his wife and he's been
(13:36):
given pocket money for the last20 years.
But just thought that was justthe way it was.
She was dealing with thefinances and he accepted that.
So it's also important tounderstand, help them understand
, how abuse has impacted on them.
You know how that behavior hasimpacted on them, and it's not
just emotion, psychologically,it's physically.
You know, why aren't they well,why can't they sleep, why can't
(13:58):
they eat?
Why have they lost weight?
Why can't they make decisions?
You know, and it's how alsoeducate them how the abuser, you
know, disempowers, um, thevictim and how the abuse erodes
self-confidence.
And so you know, by workingwith various tools and
strategies, I sort of gentlybring awareness to the fact.
I ask them obviously open-endedquestions, so they're really
(14:19):
telling me again about whattheir experiences are, which
then enables me to sort ofreflect that back to them or
maybe even say you know whatwould have, what would you say
to a friend if they were tellingyou this?
It's all that type of gentlyprizing it open, but it has to
be.
It's such a, it's a gentle,sensitive approach, um, in this
niche of coaching.
So that would be my, my first,my first appointment.
(14:42):
But then, going on from then,you know, you deal with it in
priorities, obviously withcarriers.
It's safety, you know.
Are you safe, are your childrensafe?
That's, that's the firstquestion I often ask clients do
you feel safe?
You know, are you safe to talk?
Um, when you see people in acar or somewhere that you
wouldn't ordinarily have thoseconversations?
That's sort of straight away Ithink, okay, something's,
(15:04):
something is really going onhere, you know, but every client
is different, every singleclient is different, but, um,
it's showing that level ofempathy but also being the type
of person I'm quite an energeticcoach, who you know I want to
show them how that they will getthrough this.
It's not their fault, um, thebehavior is not acceptable and
they deserve more
that sounds great.
(15:25):
It uh.
The particular thing thatresonated with me is about them
being believed.
Because that's so important,because people who have been in
abusive relationships oftenaren't believed, because the
controlling party is usuallycharming and everybody loves
them, everybody thinks they'reamazing because they're not
(15:47):
subjecting everybody around themto this behavior.
They don't come in with a, youknow, like a baddie mask on or
or whatever.
You know they're that they arethe person that everybody thinks
is great and and everyone'slike no, they couldn't possibly
be be behaving like that.
So I think I think that's um whether it's them,
(16:09):
you know, is it me, it's theirfault, whatever, yeah
yeah, and absolutely,absolutely not.
You know it's.
There's just no question isthat that's absolutely not the
case.
Karen, I wonder how you manage.
Obviously you've got heaps ofexperience, you know going back
(16:34):
not saying you're old, butyou've obviously very
experienced in working withthese clients and I wondered how
you manage communicationboundaries to make sure your
client feels supported.
But it can be overwhelminggetting divorced, can't it?
There's so much that it feelslike you need to do,
(16:54):
particularly at the beginning.
How do you manage that?
Karen Gray (16:59):
I think that you've just hit on when Sarah was
saying that they want to be.
They need to be reassured thatthey're believed and I think
that's one of the first thatthey can talk to me.
You have to have a certainempathy and they need to trust
that I have their best interestsat heart and I kind of break
(17:22):
things down to try and ascertain.
It can take a lot longer with aclient who's been abused, so
it's more of a trauma-informedapproach.
So it is a longer process.
It's kind of trying toestablish what's priority for
them once their safety is thereand what they want to try and
(17:44):
achieve them once their safetyis there and what they want to
try and achieve, because noteverybody can actually face
going through that process ifthey feel that they have that
breathing space first.
But I think it's kind ofgetting them to realise that I
believe them, they've got thesupport perhaps from Sarah or
(18:06):
from the refuge that they've gotthat they're engaging with and
kind of break down what's theirpriority.
It might be children, it mightbe to get some money, and a lot
of people come in and thinkbecause they've been abused and
they're told that they don't,they're not going to get one
(18:26):
penny, that they don't have anyrights whatsoever, and so we
kind of try to put things inplace to protect their interest
in property or to protect theirand, and then they can have that
breathing space and come backto me when they feel that
they're in a better place to beable to deal with it emotionally
(18:46):
and physically as well.
So it's, I think it's justtrying to break things down for
them and ensuring that they'vegot they know what their rights
are and that there's no pressureon them to deal with it exactly
that minute, unless it's reallyreally urgent, but to take
things at their pace as to howthey can cope with it.
Tamsin Caine (19:09):
Yeah, I love that because I do think sometimes you
get on this hamster wheel andit's almost like you're kind of
pushed down a route to carry onand keep going, and keep going,
and keep going and actuallyactually sometimes you just need
to to take a breath and to toget yourself in as good an
(19:32):
emotional state because you'remaking some massive decisions
when you're going throughdivorce, aren't you?
And to work with with someonelike Sarah who, who is going to
build you up and give you thatconfidence, to help you get that
resilience back, to get to thatplace before you start making
the legal decisions, is actuallypretty important, isn't it?
As long as you're safe and haveenough money.
Karen Gray (19:55):
And they've got their.
You get so many people that say, well, he's told me I'm not
going to get a penny because thehouse is in his name and
they're married and we can putsteps in place to protect their
interest and give them thatbreathing space to be able to
face up to it when they're in abetter place, shall we say, to
deal with it.
Um, and Sarah can give thatemotional support so that it it
(20:20):
benefits them and they're a bitstronger for that process.
Sarah Steele (20:24):
I think that's a really important point the
healing part.
You know the healing partbecause otherwise you're not
going to be able to makerational, logical decisions that
are in your best interest, aslong as it's safe to do so.
Just to take the time.
There's no rush, and that'sreally important.
The fact that Karen said it'sat your pace.
You know so, even thoughthey're seeing me or they're
seeing Karen, there's no rush,no one's going to force you to
(20:47):
do anything.
This is your time to just buildyour strength up, to build your
confidence up, and just take abreath, take a breath by your
side to guide you.
Karen Gray (20:58):
And I think that as time goes on they actually start
to remember things that arereally quite relevant, that we
can deal with both Sarah in hercapacity and from a legal
perspective, and that's betterfor them as well.
It kind of builds theirconfidence up more as we go
through the process.
Yeah, absolutely.
Tamsin Caine (21:20):
I just want to touch on something that happens
to a lot of clients that I workwith and I'm sure you'll
recognize it when I say it.
But you've talked about you cantake time.
There's no need to rush, youcan take a break.
Quite often, where there's acontrolling ex, they're rushing
(21:43):
them.
There's a controlling ex,there's a, they're rushing them,
they're going.
You need to do, you need to.
You've got to decide by then.
You need to do this, by thenyou need to, and it it's almost
like they're keeping.
We know the abuse carries onpost-separation, you know that,
but that's that's carrying on.
That controlling behavior iscarrying on.
How?
(22:03):
How can, I guess, both of you,help with that?
Because that is sometimes oneof the biggest issues that I
think people find themselves in.
Karen Gray (22:16):
I think sometimes that's where Sarah comes in,
really, because the fact thatthey are putting that pressure
on them and they're scared tosay no often and I think that it
is I think the separation, theabuse after separation is, can
be worse often, and I thinkSarah would be.
(22:43):
I would kind of give them thatguidance, because if they are
having pressure put on them,then I think I would look at the
situation to see whether thereis the possibility of us perhaps
trying to take the control forthat person to be able to have
some control rather than thembeing pressured but I do think,
Sarah, that you would be theperson that could help them
(23:04):
manage through this process aswell, um, and whether there's
tips that we can take legally Ithink that you know, basically,
obviously, as long as they'resafe just sort of helping them
to become aware of why they'redoing it and what is the
intention behind this behavior.
Sarah Steele (23:18):
Is it to um, to to force or rush somebody into an
agreement that might not be intheir best interests?
So, as I say, I'm educating myclients about the abuse.
You know this is a form ofabuse.
They're going to ramp it up,you know, when they feel that
you're sort of stepping back, asit were.
You know.
So I always talk about secretboundaries as well, you know.
(23:41):
You know whatever they're doingto you isn't acceptable.
I always talk about secretboundaries as well, you know.
You know whatever they're doingto you isn't acceptable, but
it's just thinking about whatthey try.
What do they want me to do?
They're obviously trying tomake me do something that I'm
not going to want to do, but Ineed to take time for me, you
know.
I need to to realize that.
You know I can take a breath, Ican take a pause and I don't
(24:01):
have to give them a response ordo something straight away.
And again, that comes frombuilding their confidence,
building their self-resilienceand also bringing awareness to
the fact that you know this issomething that they do.
This is what an abuser does.
This is part of the behaviourand it is a tactic.
And it is a tactic tomanipulate and force you into
doing something that is not inyour best interests.
So, yes, and it can be, theymight get rageful.
(24:21):
Be, they might get rageful,they might get rageful, but you,
it's all about puttingboundaries in place.
Um, you know, possibly, um,applying, deploying the, the
grey rock technique, um, and youknow being just literally sort
of coming out and saying, um,you know, at the moment, at the
moment, I'm not, you know, Ican't think about that right now
, you know, but, um, but let mejust, let me just take a breath
(24:43):
and I'll think about it and comeback to you so you're not sort
of being too in over.
You know, explaining why you'renot taking immediate action,
but just to sort of giveyourself a, give yourself a bit
of a break oh, I like that.
Tamsin Caine (24:57):
That's a great technique.
That's excellent.
So part of your work is givingpeople techniques to help them
when they're when they're notwith you as well, because
absolutely that's I.
I think I would feel quitetempted to just need to see you
every day, because you soundlike your support is amazing.
Sarah Steele (25:18):
I mean, that's the thing, it's all about
empowering someone.
So, yes, when you're with me,that's the thing.
It's all about empoweringsomeone.
So, yes, when you're with me,that's great.
But I'm quite an energeticcoach and my whole mission is to
help them move forward.
You know, obviously they haveto be able to do that for
themselves and part of that istaking responsibility.
You know for what they're doing, but obviously in an abusive
(25:38):
relationship that is quitetricky.
But it's all about, you know,putting boundaries in place and,
as I say, I call them silentboundaries because you're not
going to say, well, I'm notdoing that, because I'm not
doing that anymore, and to makethem more rageful, but just
acknowledging in your own mindthat you know.
That is, I know what you'redoing, I know why you're doing
(25:58):
it and I'm not accepting thatbehavior.
So I'm going to take a moment.
You know I'm going to take abreath, I'm going to go for a
walk, I'm going to have a cup oftea, I'm going to stroke my dog
, but I'm not.
It's not biting, it's not.
It's not reacting, it'sresponding.
You know it's not reacting tothe baiting that's probably
going on, because that's whatthey're trying to do.
They're trying to evoke areaction.
(26:20):
And you know I'm sure you'veheard the grey rock technique,
but you know all they're tryingto do is to get a little bit of
um, well, to evoke a reaction,either to make you upset or
rageful, so they can engage inin a bit of conflict, you know.
So that's why it's important theeducation part is so important.
You talk about their behaviors,their you know their abusive
(26:42):
partners behaviors, um, and wetheir you know their abusive
partner's behaviours, and wesort of, you know, initially
form a checklist.
And again, it's one of SarahDavison's amazing tools and she
calls it the game changerchecklist where you might have a
list of all these behaviours soyou can put them on your phone.
So when you know your partnerstarts to start behaving in a
(27:03):
way that is familiar to you,that you just think, ah, I know
what he's doing.
It's on that checklist thatI've done with Sarah.
You know, I know what he'sdoing, what's he trying to do?
He's trying to cause me to beupset, he's trying to cause a
row, you know, trying to make meto make a decision.
So that's, it's a really, it'sa really great tool to use with
the clients.
It's all about empowering themto know what's going on, because
(27:24):
that behaviour is not unique tothat person.
It is what abusers do.
Tamsin Caine (27:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
There's a pattern, isn't thereand a programme of behaviour
that you can recognise?
And, to an extent, as soon asyou've got that awareness of
what's coming next, it's it'sthat, it's that aha moment you
know.
Sarah Steele (27:48):
So it's that it might be the touch or it might
be a look you know ordinarilywould have completely derailed
you where I work with clients.
To you know, um, not to walkaway but to recognize it as what
it is.
And to, you know, think aboutsome, something they're grateful
for, which is a really verygood antidote for overwhelm or
just gets them to think ofsomething else.
(28:08):
So they're not, you know,ultimately triggered and start
going into a spiral of anxiety
yeah oh, it sounds wonderful.
I'm sure lots of people couldbenefit from from your help, and
people in normal life as well.
But I know you mentionedearlier, Karen, in your
(28:29):
introduction that you work withtwo refuges.
Could you tell us a little bitmore about the work that you do
with them and what inspired youto get involved with their work?
Karen Gray (28:41):
They're women's refuges.
One is um, based in Hitchfield.
One's a local one to the officewhere I work, um, and I've
always wanted to see if therewas anything that I could do to
help victims of abuse, um, so Iapproached them various ones
(29:04):
actually and said that I wouldlike to offer um sessions once a
month, or once every threemonths.
I do the one, uh, to give legaladvice to women service users
who are perhaps in safeaccommodation, and even to
service users that come in thatuse the outreach services that
(29:27):
they provide.
So they we do a clinic andthey're booked in to come and to
see me so that they have somelegal advice as to what their
options are, what their rightsare, and sometimes just to have
a good cry that they're actuallytaking.
That's a big step for somebodyto take to actually think I'm
(29:51):
actually going to sort thingsout so that I can move forward
properly.
It's a huge step for them totake and I just feel that it's
really difficult for victims ofdomestic or survivors of
domestic abuse should I say toto access legal advice, to be
(30:12):
able to do that and the legalaid.
I know legal aid is available,um, but it's not always easy to
get it and it's horrendous.
So I just feel that it'sinspiring to be able to help
those, the women that work there.
They do an amazing job and dothose and give those drop-in
(30:36):
clinics so that they can haveadvice whether it's about forced
separation, children, financesand they've got some idea that
they can start to create thatpath moving forward for
themselves.
I've also we do trainingworkshops with the women, the
staff there, so that they havethey know the red flags when
(31:01):
somebody comes in, when they'redoing their assessments and
everything that they can say youneed to get this sorted.
We can put you in touch withsomebody who can help you,
whether it's just making a will,whether it's just protecting
their interest in the propertyand also with regards to child
arrangements, which feeds in thefinances, so that it helps them
(31:23):
to give the service users thebest that they can, and they
also get in touch with me shouldthey need to in that time if
something urgent comes in, sothat we can I can have a chat
with them and give them adviceon their rights and what
applications, if any, or whetherwe need to make any urgent
applications to the court toprotect them well,
(31:46):
are there common questionsthat you get asked at the
clinics that you have?
do I?
They don't want to go to court.
Obviously, that's the one thingthey don't really want to do,
um, and it takes a lot because alot of them that don't want to
go are actually the ones thatneed to go um, and that they
could, you know, to get thingsdone properly.
(32:08):
It's often about child, aboutchildren, um, and what rights
have they got um the the otherpart, the abuser, effectively?
Um, I've had it's really weirdto say that, because the last
few that I've done, I've had alot of couples come with regards
to just having a house thatthey've bought jointly but
(32:32):
haven't protected and they'vehad paid significant deposits um
, and now they're going to losethem because they haven't had
any protection for that many,because they're unmarried um,
there's been quite a few ofthose which I've noticed lately
which this has been a bitcurious, but it's mainly
regarding the children, um andthe money, because that's the
(32:57):
first thing they do, isn't it?
Cut all their financialresources off?
Tamsin Caine (33:01):
if they had any in the first place.
But, yes, do you see a widerange of different people in the
refuges?
Because I guess there's this,there's this image that this is,
this doesn't happen to thewealthy, it doesn't happen to
people who've got money, butactually that is not the case at
(33:23):
all, is it?
And?
And a refuge is somewhere thatis your safe, is the place
that's been kind of planned outto be the safe escape route if
you, if your safety is in indanger.
I just want to kind of um layto rest some urban myths,
because we don't.
We want people out there toknow it's, you know it's, it's
(33:47):
anybody.
This is not.
It does not discriminate.
Karen Gray (33:51):
I think as well, it's because you get such a lot.
It can be anybody, absolutelyanybody, and I think that nobody
can say that they could neverbe in that position.
But I think what you have toappreciate is that they have
refuges, they have homes wherethey take people in to protect
them, but they also have a widerange of outreach services that
(34:14):
the public can use and they canhelp you and support you remain
in your home, provided it's safefor them to do so and they can
access the support that theygive at that at those refuges.
And so I think that's why youget such a and such a wide range
of people that are goingthrough this, and I work with
(34:36):
one woman, um Chad, who, whoactually specializes in helping
over 50s.
Well, they've had careers, youknow, and they're in really good
positions and she supports them.
So I think it's because theyare reaching out and able to
reach out to so many people, butthey don't realise that they
(34:59):
can access that support and theycan give them advice on housing
budgeting, even counselling forchildren, which you can access
quicker, actually, than if youwent through the GP and the
sources that they can give.
It's just, it's amazing thework that they do to support
(35:23):
people and you know I feelprivileged that I'm able to give
them that service, to be ableto help them?
Tamsin Caine (35:30):
absolutely no, it's incredible.
It is an incredible thing thatyou're, that you're doing and,
like you say, it's, it doesn'tdiscriminate by age, by gender,
really, by sexuality, by race.
You know, unfortunately thistouches across the board,
although we believe that womenare more susceptible, but that
(35:57):
may be in the number becausewomen are more likely perhaps to
come forward, but that remainsto be seen.
I think I know you talkedearlier, before we came on and
started recording, about gettingSarah involved.
How are you hoping that she'llbe able to help with the refuges
(36:22):
as well?
Karen Gray (36:24):
Well, she'll be able to give them workshops with
strategies and things to put inplace.
I think that Sarah would beinvaluable to them because they
wouldn't be service users inparticular that are in refuge,
wouldn't be able to access it,and it's something that I know
(36:46):
that the Pathway Project arekeen to, you know to work out
with her, Sarah.
So I think that she would helpa lot of them.
They're very, very emotional,some of them because they've
literally been turned upsidedown and I think it would be
(37:08):
really good that she would beable to give them a good
emotional support and then wecan collaborate and give them
some legal advice as well, sothey benefit and it's a holistic
approach.
Sorry, my teeth got in a tumblethen.
Sarah Steele (37:23):
I do that all the time.
I think it's well tamped inbecause part of my training on
the master practitioner wasSarah Davison.
We had the privilege of sittingin on the Freedom Programme and
listening to that for 10 weeksand obviously offering support
and coaching on that.
So I've got a good idea of whatthey cover in those programmes.
(37:46):
But I think to take it a bitfurther, um would be, would be
ideal.
So, yes, to sort of formulatesome type of workshop, to sort
of um moving on to sort ofenhance that would would be
lovely, um, so I'm lookingforward to having that
collaboration with, with Karenand the team at Pathway.
Tamsin Caine (38:03):
That sounds incredible.
Just um, just for thoselistening who don't know what,
can you tell us a bit more aboutthe Freedom Programme?
Just thinking in case anybody'slistening and hasn't heard of
it.
Sarah Steele (38:14):
It's a while ago where I sort of probably about a
year ago now, but it's theprogramme that they offer in the
refuge and it covers 10 weeks.
It's a 10-week course and itcovers various things.
I can't remember much, but Iremember the King of the Castle.
It talks about the behaviors,basically, and you have um, I
(38:34):
think it's a council that wassitting there who just talked
through um the differentbehaviors and obviously they
invite the women to comment,should they wish to.
Um, and I followed the programfor 10 weeks.
So initially, you know, thewomen we work with the same the
same women weren't saying verymuch.
Then, really, sort of by weekby week, by week three, week
four, they became a little bitmore sort of um conversational
(38:56):
about it, but it just sort ofspoke about behaviors, covered
children, it covered all typesof things, um, but it just again
was bringing them to theawareness of the fact of
different behaviors that anabusive personality displays and
also the impact it has on them.
So that's what I would like tobuild on.
But, uh, had you given me theheads up, I could have got my
(39:16):
book out and told you a bit moreabout it there's a follow-on
from it as well.
Karen Gray (39:21):
There's a follow-on.
I I recommend that my clientsto to access the freedom program
because and they always saythey just don't want to talk
about things then but I thinkevery person that has gone and
completed it has come back andsaid it's been invaluable and it
was such a comfort to theeducation that it gave them and
(39:45):
and the believing them as well.
Sarah Steele (39:47):
Um, it was amazing it's about the education part.
It's about you know, help themunderstand why they feel like
they do, you know, and theimpact that you know being in an
abusive relationship has on youand, as I say, it's emotional,
psychological and physical, um,and just that sort of
encouragement that you will getthrough it.
It's not your fault and it'snot acceptable and you don't
(40:10):
have to accept abuse on anylevel and it just keep
reiterating.
Reiterating that because quitea few of them, as I said, been
made to feel they were at fault,it was their fault.
It's the blame shifting thatreally sort of gets to people as
well yeah,
Tamsin Caine (40:24):
absolutely no, it sounds.
It sounds an incredibly usefulprogram and it's funny that you
say that people often don'tdon't want to when you first
offer it.
And I wonder if there's a.
There's a point at which youkind of get get a little bit
down the line and you think, ok,I'm ready.
Now.
It's such a huge thing to haveto leave that relationship that
(40:54):
I think you know and you bothmentioned this earlier that that
taking time to breathe andtaking time to just just step
back and go for a walk and havea cup of tea and and and sort of
feel safe, you know, just thatis is an incredible achievement,
for, for anybody you know it'suh, it really is quite something
(41:14):
.
Um, we're coming to the end ofour time together.
I told you this ago quick, isthere anything?
Um, you've got to add Karen.
I'll start with you before we,before we finish up
Karen Gray (41:28):
um, I don't think so .
I just think that, um, if anylisteners can support any of the
local women's refuges in anylittle way, um, it's invaluable
to them, especially coming up toChristmas, then gifts for um
children for Christmas, anythinglike that, because often if
(41:49):
people have to go into refugeaccommodation, they don't have a
choice.
They are literally in theclothes that they're standing in
and they have nothing.
Toiletries are invaluablebecause they give them toiletry
packages on arrival so they'vegot their own stuff to have.
Anything like that would be
Tamsin Caine (42:10):
amazing'm sure brilliant.
Thank you for that.
That's it.
That's really good advice whenI was hearing yesterday from Sam
Billingham about the buddy bagsas well for children, which
which again is it's a reallyincredible thing to do.
So, if anybody can help, thatwould be absolutely amazing.
If you need the services, thenplease make sure you get in
(42:34):
touch with them safely or get afriend or colleague at work.
Anybody that you can contact.
Contact them safely.
And, Sarah, anything that you'dlike to add before we finish up
?
Sarah Steele (42:47):
I think it's just keep campaigning, keep raising
awareness of domestic abuse onsocial media platforms,
especially LinkedIn.
I think there's been a lot onthat recently.
I think it's amazing that QueenCamilla did that television
programme last week.
I think her speaking out isgoing to really make people
think and that's what we need todo.
You know, abuse can happenanywhere and it goes on behind
(43:09):
closed doors
yeah absolutely, absolutely.
we often don't know, do we.
Thank you so much to both ofyou for joining me.
It's been absolutely wonderfulto talk to you both, um, and
keep up the great work and Ilook forward to uh, to hearing
more as you uh, as you moveforward.
But thank you to hearing moreas you move forward.
But thank you, hi, and I hopeyou enjoyed that episode of the
(43:36):
Smart Divorce Podcast.
If you would like to get intouch, please have a look in the
show notes for our details orgo onto the website, www.
smartdivorce.
co.
uk.
Also, if you are listening onApple Podcasts or on Spotify and
you wouldn't mind leaving us alovely five-star review, that
would be fantastic.
(43:57):
I know that lots of ourlisteners are finding this is
incredibly helpful in theirjourney through separation,
divorce and dissolving a civilpartnership.
Also, if you would like somefurther support, we do have a
Facebook group now.
It's called Separation, divorceand Dissolution UK.
(44:18):
Please do go on to Facebook,search up the group and we'd be
delighted to have you join us.
The one thing I would say is doplease answer their membership
questions.
Okay, have a great day and takecare.
Welcome to series 10 of the Smart Divorce Podcast.
During this series, we're goingto be speaking about the
difficult subject of domesticabuse.
Unfortunately, during my work,I come across people who are
victim survivors of domesticabuse on a far too regular basis
.
So we're going to be talking tothose who have survived
(00:30):
themselves, to professionalsworking in this area, to
solicitors, to hopefully helpyou to find the right support if
you're in that situation.
This is an issue that's notgoing away, so so if you're
going through this or you knowanybody who is, I really hope
this series helped you.
Thanks for listening.
(00:55):
Hello and welcome to today'sepisode of the Smart Divorce
Podcast, something a little bitdifferent in this series today,
because I have two guests and wevery rarely have two guests on
because my menopausal braindoesn't work terribly well with
talking to two people at thesame time, so wish me luck.
(01:16):
I'm delighted to welcome thelovely Sarah Steele, who is a
divorce coach, and Karen Gray,who is a family solicitor.
I'm going to let them introducethemselves in a lot more detail
, but both of them work withclients who are in abusive
relationships as well as otherpeople, so I wanted them to come
(01:38):
on and talk a bit about howthey support people in those
relationships.
So I'm going to start with you,Sarah, if that's okay.
Can you tell us a bit aboutyour role as a divorce coach in
divorce and helping people whoare leaving domestic abuse
relationships?
Sarah Steele (01:56):
Yeah, certainly.
Well, I'm an accredited divorcecoach and I train with Sarah
Davison, where I also did mymaster practitioner, which is
all about supporting both menand women who are in abusive
relationships.
So that's sort of where I'vedrawn my experience from, and
her tools and strategies,obviously.
So, as a divorce coach who dealswith clients who are in abusive
relationship, you know it's avery complex and overwhelming
(02:19):
process of you know, of leavingan abusive relationship, and my
role involves offering, you know, emotional support, helping
clients rebuild their resilience, their confidence, manage their
emotions, manage conflict, andoffer them practical strategies,
and, you know, to help themsafely exit relationships.
So I basically serve as a guide, as a supporter, as a cheerlead
(02:40):
and a strategist really.
But obviously, when you'redealing with clients who are in
abusive relationships, itrequires a very deep
understanding of the unique, umyou know, challenges faced by
survivors.
So, um, you know, what I do isI see men and women, um, and I
tend to get my referrals eitherword of mouth, um, via karen or
via a lot by my networkingmeetings actually.
(03:02):
So, um, it's quite privilegedactually to deal with uh, you
know clients who are in abusiverelationships, because it takes
an awful lot of courage for themto reach out and and ask for
help um.
So So it's a very unique umposition I find myself in um,
but it's one I find a hugelyrewarding
Tamsin Caine (03:21):
absolutely, um, and we'll come back to talk in a
little bit more detail abouthow and when, but I think it's
it's important to say you're adivorce coach, not a therapist,
aren't you?
And sometimes people might needa therapist as well.
It's, you're not replacing that,,
Sarah Steele (03:41):
okay, so I very much deal with the emotional
side and the practical.
You know complexities that areinvolved in that process, but
it's all about empowering myclients, building their,
building their confidence andI'm there to, you know, build
their confidence and theirresilience so they can make
decisions, learn to makedecisions for themselves, moving
forward, and that's reallyimportant.
You know generally life,especially through the legal
(04:04):
process, but it's the courageand the strength that we draw on
together in our sessions.
Tamsin Caine (04:11):
Yeah Confidence and resilience is so often
knocked, particularly when youhave been the subject of abuse
throughout your relationship,which you thought was a trusted
relationship.
Sarah Steele (04:25):
So that's really important.
We often hear this world youknow this word that clients
describing themselves as feelingannihilated and they do.
They feel completelyannihilated.
Um, you know the shells ofthemselves.
So you know, whilst divorce isan enormously you know traumatic
event in anybody's life, um, todeal with the abuse side of it
as well, um, and to actuallysort of come out the other end,
obviously I like working withclients post their divorce as
(04:48):
well, just to build them up andto see them sort of go right
from the basis of a feeling theycan't even decide what they
want for breakfast to a life forthemselves outside their
relationship, is quite something.
Tamsin Caine (05:05):
Absolutely.
It's a real privilege, isn't itit, to work with people
post-divorce, and I I feel I'dfeel a slight tinge of sympathy
for um, the poor divorcesolicitors who don't get to see
that so much, because their rolekind of stops when they're when
the divorce stops.
I'll bring you in at that point, Karen, and can you tell me a
(05:28):
little bit about the work thatyou do?
Karen Gray (05:31):
Yeah, I'm a family lawyer and I specialise in cases
that feature domestic abuse andI do the normal family lawyer
finance, divorce, Childrenmatters predominantly.
And I'm accredited for I have alaw society accreditation that
(05:54):
specialises in domestic abusecases and also children matters
featuring domestic abuse.
And I also work alongside.
I work with Pathway Project andChad Women's Refuges.
Um, that I can go into a bitmore detail in a bit um, but I
(06:15):
work closely with them,providing legal advice to them
and helping them and alsobringing Sarah as a divorce
coach into those dynamics tosupport legally and emotionally
the clients me from the legalside of view point of view and
(06:38):
Sarah to help emotionally sothat we can ensure that their
rights are protected.
And Sarah can help with theemotional side of that and guide
them through that and supportthem
absolutely it's.
It's it's really important andI think so many people don't
understand that you need it'snot just about legal advice when
(07:00):
you're getting divorced, youneed the emotional support, you
need the financial advice andyou need the the legal advice as
well.
And and to have that thattriangle funny, because we're
sat in the triangle, but to havethat triangle all covered is it
is absolutely perfect, isn't it, I guess?
I guess it would be useful.
I'm going to start with you,karen, because I'm oh, I might
(07:24):
be making an assumption that'snot actually true here.
I was going to start with you,Karen, because I'm, oh, I might
be making an assumption that'snot actually true here.
I was going to say I assumethat people come to you first
generally.
Um, Karen, so I was going toask you how you would approach a
case and and ensure thatclients are prepared and
protected, and then and thenpass on to Sarah about when
she's brought in and how sheworks with clients.
(07:53):
.
Well, I suppose really, thatclients come to us and they have
a lot of, shall I say, andpicking that needs to be done,
and I think that once they kindof know what rights they have
and we can take steps to go downthe legal route of what we need
to get, whether it's in, youknow, injunctive relief or
anything, protective orders, ormake an application for, you
(08:17):
know, urgent spas or maintenanceor anything like that, and that
Sarah can I recommend her tomany of my clients that there's
an option for them to contacther or we can.
Sarah can contact them directlyso that they can make the right
decisions, because it's quite along process really, They often
(08:37):
find that they are not able toremember all the finite details.
So Sarah kind of can help them,kind of sort their minds out
(08:59):
and prepare them so that theycan give good instructions, so
that when they come and see methat they're kind of focused on
that appointment, so that we canget all the legal stuff done.
So it's cost effective for themeffectively as well, and
they've got emotional support.
Tamsin Caine (09:14):
So many people do use their solicitors as an
emotional crutch and reallythat's, with all due respect,
not the right place to be goingfor your emotional support.
Karen Gray (09:27):
I think you have to have a certain sort of you have
to have that empathy, of courseyou know, but it's it's good
that I mean at one time yearsago, when I was a young slipper
thing, basically people it wasmore physical abuse and they
used to come into the office andthey used to say you know he's
hit me, but then it was the timewhen you used to have to say
(09:51):
I'm really sorry, but thereneeds to be blood dripping on
the carpet and do you need towait for him to hit you again?
That those that's you know.
That's going back a few yearsago.
But now there's all sorts ofthe physical, sexual,
psychological, emotional abusethat everybody is now aware of.
(10:13):
That needs to be that'sconstant and ongoing.
That having somebody like Sarahavailable can help them with
that, because it's quitetraumatic to deal with as
they're going through theseparation and the legal route.
Tamsin Caine (10:31):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And, Sarah, how do you come in?
How do you approach workingwith somebody who's been in an
abusive relationship, which Iguess you know?
I just heard Karen talk aboutthe physical side of things.
You know, I work a lot withpeople who've been economically
(10:53):
abused and financially abusedand the long and short bit is
it's all power struggle, isn'tit?
It's all down to coercivecontrol.
It's somebody wanting to havepower over another person.
So how do you work?
Where do you start?
Sarah Steele (11:08):
I mean basically, as I say, you know, I offer
emotional support andempowerment, um, and divorce
from an abusive partner is notjust a legal separation but it's
also a journey, a journey ofreclaiming their self-worth and
their autonomy.
So the most important thing Ido, first of all, is just to
listen, you know, to listen tothem.
Obviously, I offer a free 20minute call.
That might not even happen.
(11:28):
We might go into my firstsession, which is usually an
hour and a half, and a lot ofthat is just listening, because
it might be the first time thatthat person, a man or woman, has
felt, seen or heard orvalidated or believed.
And it's just so important toinvite them to open up and share
in an honest, in an honest way,you know, in a safe and
(11:50):
non-judgmental space, um, toexpress, you know, their fears,
their frustrations and their andtheir concerns and their doubts
.
Um, because quite a few of themdon't actually know they've
actually been in an abusiverelationship and they don't
understand why they're feelinglike they're feeling.
Yes, divorce is is verytraumatic, but you've got
another, it's another level whenyou've been in an abusive
(12:10):
relationship.
So I help them to recognize andvalidate their experiences, um,
you know, which may have beendismissed or minimized by the
abuser or even family members.
They might have tried toexpress concerns if they're
fortunate enough to still haveconnections with their family
and the family might have.
Um, you express concerns ifthey're fortunate enough to
still have connections withtheir family and the family
might have belittled.
That again, you know, and thatI've heard quite a bit.
(12:30):
So you know, my whole aim is toempower my clients by, as I say
, building their confidence,reinforcing their ability to
make decisions for themselves.
But there's a lot abouteducation and awareness, because
if you've got, you know quiteclearly, when you're listening
(12:51):
to them and you're taking notes,I always tell them I'm taking
notes and you're hearing abouttheir experiences, the behaviors
they've been subjected to.
They think that's normal.
But and it's bringing that,it's bringing that awareness to
the client that that's notnormal, that's not acceptable.
But it's the way that you do itand it has to be very, very
carefully and sensitivelybrought to light, if you like.
(13:13):
So it's listening and then alsohelping education, how I help
my clients understand how theybecame to be in an abusive
relationship, because I've hadclients who have been
businesswomen.
Businessmen understand, youknow, over 20 years, how they've
let that be.
You know, I had a client I'mworking with a client at the
moment, you know, in a businesswith his wife and he's been
(13:36):
given pocket money for the last20 years.
But just thought that was justthe way it was.
She was dealing with thefinances and he accepted that.
So it's also important tounderstand, help them understand
, how abuse has impacted on them.
You know how that behavior hasimpacted on them, and it's not
just emotion, psychologically,it's physically.
You know, why aren't they well,why can't they sleep, why can't
(13:58):
they eat?
Why have they lost weight?
Why can't they make decisions?
You know, and it's how alsoeducate them how the abuser, you
know, disempowers, um, thevictim and how the abuse erodes
self-confidence.
And so you know, by workingwith various tools and
strategies, I sort of gentlybring awareness to the fact.
I ask them obviously open-endedquestions, so they're really
(14:19):
telling me again about whattheir experiences are, which
then enables me to sort ofreflect that back to them or
maybe even say you know whatwould have, what would you say
to a friend if they were tellingyou this?
It's all that type of gentlyprizing it open, but it has to
be.
It's such a, it's a gentle,sensitive approach, um, in this
niche of coaching.
So that would be my, my first,my first appointment.
(14:42):
But then, going on from then,you know, you deal with it in
priorities, obviously withcarriers.
It's safety, you know.
Are you safe, are your childrensafe?
That's, that's the firstquestion I often ask clients do
you feel safe?
You know, are you safe to talk?
Um, when you see people in acar or somewhere that you
wouldn't ordinarily have thoseconversations?
That's sort of straight away Ithink, okay, something's,
(15:04):
something is really going onhere, you know, but every client
is different, every singleclient is different, but, um,
it's showing that level ofempathy but also being the type
of person I'm quite an energeticcoach, who you know I want to
show them how that they will getthrough this.
It's not their fault, um, thebehavior is not acceptable and
they deserve more
that sounds great.
(15:25):
It uh.
The particular thing thatresonated with me is about them
being believed.
Because that's so important,because people who have been in
abusive relationships oftenaren't believed, because the
controlling party is usuallycharming and everybody loves
them, everybody thinks they'reamazing because they're not
(15:47):
subjecting everybody around themto this behavior.
They don't come in with a, youknow, like a baddie mask on or
or whatever.
You know they're that they arethe person that everybody thinks
is great and and everyone'slike no, they couldn't possibly
be be behaving like that.
So I think I think that's um whether it's them,
(16:09):
you know, is it me, it's theirfault, whatever, yeah
yeah, and absolutely,absolutely not.
You know it's.
There's just no question isthat that's absolutely not the
case.
Karen, I wonder how you manage.
Obviously you've got heaps ofexperience, you know going back
(16:34):
not saying you're old, butyou've obviously very
experienced in working withthese clients and I wondered how
you manage communicationboundaries to make sure your
client feels supported.
But it can be overwhelminggetting divorced, can't it?
There's so much that it feelslike you need to do,
(16:54):
particularly at the beginning.
How do you manage that?
Karen Gray (16:59):
I think that you've just hit on when Sarah was
saying that they want to be.
They need to be reassured thatthey're believed and I think
that's one of the first thatthey can talk to me.
You have to have a certainempathy and they need to trust
that I have their best interestsat heart and I kind of break
(17:22):
things down to try and ascertain.
It can take a lot longer with aclient who's been abused, so
it's more of a trauma-informedapproach.
So it is a longer process.
It's kind of trying toestablish what's priority for
them once their safety is thereand what they want to try and
(17:44):
achieve them once their safetyis there and what they want to
try and achieve, because noteverybody can actually face
going through that process ifthey feel that they have that
breathing space first.
But I think it's kind ofgetting them to realise that I
believe them, they've got thesupport perhaps from Sarah or
(18:06):
from the refuge that they've gotthat they're engaging with and
kind of break down what's theirpriority.
It might be children, it mightbe to get some money, and a lot
of people come in and thinkbecause they've been abused and
they're told that they don't,they're not going to get one
(18:26):
penny, that they don't have anyrights whatsoever, and so we
kind of try to put things inplace to protect their interest
in property or to protect theirand, and then they can have that
breathing space and come backto me when they feel that
they're in a better place to beable to deal with it emotionally
(18:46):
and physically as well.
So it's, I think it's justtrying to break things down for
them and ensuring that they'vegot they know what their rights
are and that there's no pressureon them to deal with it exactly
that minute, unless it's reallyreally urgent, but to take
things at their pace as to howthey can cope with it.
Tamsin Caine (19:09):
Yeah, I love that because I do think sometimes you
get on this hamster wheel andit's almost like you're kind of
pushed down a route to carry onand keep going, and keep going,
and keep going and actuallyactually sometimes you just need
to to take a breath and to toget yourself in as good an
(19:32):
emotional state because you'remaking some massive decisions
when you're going throughdivorce, aren't you?
And to work with with someonelike Sarah who, who is going to
build you up and give you thatconfidence, to help you get that
resilience back, to get to thatplace before you start making
the legal decisions, is actuallypretty important, isn't it?
As long as you're safe and haveenough money.
Karen Gray (19:55):
And they've got their.
You get so many people that say, well, he's told me I'm not
going to get a penny because thehouse is in his name and
they're married and we can putsteps in place to protect their
interest and give them thatbreathing space to be able to
face up to it when they're in abetter place, shall we say, to
deal with it.
Um, and Sarah can give thatemotional support so that it it
(20:20):
benefits them and they're a bitstronger for that process.
Sarah Steele (20:24):
I think that's a really important point the
healing part.
You know the healing partbecause otherwise you're not
going to be able to makerational, logical decisions that
are in your best interest, aslong as it's safe to do so.
Just to take the time.
There's no rush, and that'sreally important.
The fact that Karen said it'sat your pace.
You know so, even thoughthey're seeing me or they're
seeing Karen, there's no rush,no one's going to force you to
(20:47):
do anything.
This is your time to just buildyour strength up, to build your
confidence up, and just take abreath, take a breath by your
side to guide you.
Karen Gray (20:58):
And I think that as time goes on they actually start
to remember things that arereally quite relevant, that we
can deal with both Sarah in hercapacity and from a legal
perspective, and that's betterfor them as well.
It kind of builds theirconfidence up more as we go
through the process.
Yeah, absolutely.
Tamsin Caine (21:20):
I just want to touch on something that happens
to a lot of clients that I workwith and I'm sure you'll
recognize it when I say it.
But you've talked about you cantake time.
There's no need to rush, youcan take a break.
Quite often, where there's acontrolling ex, they're rushing
(21:43):
them.
There's a controlling ex,there's a, they're rushing them,
they're going.
You need to do, you need to.
You've got to decide by then.
You need to do this, by thenyou need to, and it it's almost
like they're keeping.
We know the abuse carries onpost-separation, you know that,
but that's that's carrying on.
That controlling behavior iscarrying on.
How?
(22:03):
How can, I guess, both of you,help with that?
Because that is sometimes oneof the biggest issues that I
think people find themselves in.
Karen Gray (22:16):
I think sometimes that's where Sarah comes in,
really, because the fact thatthey are putting that pressure
on them and they're scared tosay no often and I think that it
is I think the separation, theabuse after separation is, can
be worse often, and I thinkSarah would be.
(22:43):
I would kind of give them thatguidance, because if they are
having pressure put on them,then I think I would look at the
situation to see whether thereis the possibility of us perhaps
trying to take the control forthat person to be able to have
some control rather than thembeing pressured but I do think,
Sarah, that you would be theperson that could help them
(23:04):
manage through this process aswell, um, and whether there's
tips that we can take legally Ithink that you know, basically,
obviously, as long as they'resafe just sort of helping them
to become aware of why they'redoing it and what is the
intention behind this behavior.
Sarah Steele (23:18):
Is it to um, to to force or rush somebody into an
agreement that might not be intheir best interests?
So, as I say, I'm educating myclients about the abuse.
You know this is a form ofabuse.
They're going to ramp it up,you know, when they feel that
you're sort of stepping back, asit were.
You know.
So I always talk about secretboundaries as well, you know.
(23:41):
You know whatever they're doingto you isn't acceptable.
I always talk about secretboundaries as well, you know.
You know whatever they're doingto you isn't acceptable, but
it's just thinking about whatthey try.
What do they want me to do?
They're obviously trying tomake me do something that I'm
not going to want to do, but Ineed to take time for me, you
know.
I need to to realize that.
You know I can take a breath, Ican take a pause and I don't
(24:01):
have to give them a response ordo something straight away.
And again, that comes frombuilding their confidence,
building their self-resilienceand also bringing awareness to
the fact that you know this issomething that they do.
This is what an abuser does.
This is part of the behaviourand it is a tactic.
And it is a tactic tomanipulate and force you into
doing something that is not inyour best interests.
So, yes, and it can be, theymight get rageful.
(24:21):
Be, they might get rageful,they might get rageful, but you,
it's all about puttingboundaries in place.
Um, you know, possibly, um,applying, deploying the, the
grey rock technique, um, and youknow being just literally sort
of coming out and saying, um,you know, at the moment, at the
moment, I'm not, you know, Ican't think about that right now
, you know, but, um, but let mejust, let me just take a breath
(24:43):
and I'll think about it and comeback to you so you're not sort
of being too in over.
You know, explaining why you'renot taking immediate action,
but just to sort of giveyourself a, give yourself a bit
of a break oh, I like that.
Tamsin Caine (24:57):
That's a great technique.
That's excellent.
So part of your work is givingpeople techniques to help them
when they're when they're notwith you as well, because
absolutely that's I.
I think I would feel quitetempted to just need to see you
every day, because you soundlike your support is amazing.
Sarah Steele (25:18):
I mean, that's the thing, it's all about
empowering someone.
So, yes, when you're with me,that's the thing.
It's all about empoweringsomeone.
So, yes, when you're with me,that's great.
But I'm quite an energeticcoach and my whole mission is to
help them move forward.
You know, obviously they haveto be able to do that for
themselves and part of that istaking responsibility.
You know for what they're doing, but obviously in an abusive
(25:38):
relationship that is quitetricky.
But it's all about, you know,putting boundaries in place and,
as I say, I call them silentboundaries because you're not
going to say, well, I'm notdoing that, because I'm not
doing that anymore, and to makethem more rageful, but just
acknowledging in your own mindthat you know.
That is, I know what you'redoing, I know why you're doing
(25:58):
it and I'm not accepting thatbehavior.
So I'm going to take a moment.
You know I'm going to take abreath, I'm going to go for a
walk, I'm going to have a cup oftea, I'm going to stroke my dog
, but I'm not.
It's not biting, it's not.
It's not reacting, it'sresponding.
You know it's not reacting tothe baiting that's probably
going on, because that's whatthey're trying to do.
They're trying to evoke areaction.
(26:20):
And you know I'm sure you'veheard the grey rock technique,
but you know all they're tryingto do is to get a little bit of
um, well, to evoke a reaction,either to make you upset or
rageful, so they can engage inin a bit of conflict, you know.
So that's why it's important theeducation part is so important.
You talk about their behaviors,their you know their abusive
(26:42):
partners behaviors, um, and wetheir you know their abusive
partner's behaviours, and wesort of, you know, initially
form a checklist.
And again, it's one of SarahDavison's amazing tools and she
calls it the game changerchecklist where you might have a
list of all these behaviours soyou can put them on your phone.
So when you know your partnerstarts to start behaving in a
(27:03):
way that is familiar to you,that you just think, ah, I know
what he's doing.
It's on that checklist thatI've done with Sarah.
You know, I know what he'sdoing, what's he trying to do?
He's trying to cause me to beupset, he's trying to cause a
row, you know, trying to make meto make a decision.
So that's, it's a really, it'sa really great tool to use with
the clients.
It's all about empowering themto know what's going on, because
(27:24):
that behaviour is not unique tothat person.
It is what abusers do.
Tamsin Caine (27:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
There's a pattern, isn't thereand a programme of behaviour
that you can recognise?
And, to an extent, as soon asyou've got that awareness of
what's coming next, it's it'sthat, it's that aha moment you
know.
Sarah Steele (27:48):
So it's that it might be the touch or it might
be a look you know ordinarilywould have completely derailed
you where I work with clients.
To you know, um, not to walkaway but to recognize it as what
it is.
And to, you know, think aboutsome, something they're grateful
for, which is a really verygood antidote for overwhelm or
just gets them to think ofsomething else.
(28:08):
So they're not, you know,ultimately triggered and start
going into a spiral of anxiety
yeah oh, it sounds wonderful.
I'm sure lots of people couldbenefit from from your help, and
people in normal life as well.
But I know you mentionedearlier, Karen, in your
(28:29):
introduction that you work withtwo refuges.
Could you tell us a little bitmore about the work that you do
with them and what inspired youto get involved with their work?
Karen Gray (28:41):
They're women's refuges.
One is um, based in Hitchfield.
One's a local one to the officewhere I work, um, and I've
always wanted to see if therewas anything that I could do to
help victims of abuse, um, so Iapproached them various ones
(29:04):
actually and said that I wouldlike to offer um sessions once a
month, or once every threemonths.
I do the one, uh, to give legaladvice to women service users
who are perhaps in safeaccommodation, and even to
service users that come in thatuse the outreach services that
(29:27):
they provide.
So they we do a clinic andthey're booked in to come and to
see me so that they have somelegal advice as to what their
options are, what their rightsare, and sometimes just to have
a good cry that they're actuallytaking.
That's a big step for somebodyto take to actually think I'm
(29:51):
actually going to sort thingsout so that I can move forward
properly.
It's a huge step for them totake and I just feel that it's
really difficult for victims ofdomestic or survivors of
domestic abuse should I say toto access legal advice, to be
(30:12):
able to do that and the legalaid.
I know legal aid is available,um, but it's not always easy to
get it and it's horrendous.
So I just feel that it'sinspiring to be able to help
those, the women that work there.
They do an amazing job and dothose and give those drop-in
(30:36):
clinics so that they can haveadvice whether it's about forced
separation, children, financesand they've got some idea that
they can start to create thatpath moving forward for
themselves.
I've also we do trainingworkshops with the women, the
staff there, so that they havethey know the red flags when
(31:01):
somebody comes in, when they'redoing their assessments and
everything that they can say youneed to get this sorted.
We can put you in touch withsomebody who can help you,
whether it's just making a will,whether it's just protecting
their interest in the propertyand also with regards to child
arrangements, which feeds in thefinances, so that it helps them
(31:23):
to give the service users thebest that they can, and they
also get in touch with me shouldthey need to in that time if
something urgent comes in, sothat we can I can have a chat
with them and give them adviceon their rights and what
applications, if any, or whetherwe need to make any urgent
applications to the court toprotect them well,
(31:46):
are there common questionsthat you get asked at the
clinics that you have?
do I?
They don't want to go to court.
Obviously, that's the one thingthey don't really want to do,
um, and it takes a lot because alot of them that don't want to
go are actually the ones thatneed to go um, and that they
could, you know, to get thingsdone properly.
(32:08):
It's often about child, aboutchildren, um, and what rights
have they got um the the otherpart, the abuser, effectively?
Um, I've had it's really weirdto say that, because the last
few that I've done, I've had alot of couples come with regards
to just having a house thatthey've bought jointly but
(32:32):
haven't protected and they'vehad paid significant deposits um
, and now they're going to losethem because they haven't had
any protection for that many,because they're unmarried um,
there's been quite a few ofthose which I've noticed lately
which this has been a bitcurious, but it's mainly
regarding the children, um andthe money, because that's the
(32:57):
first thing they do, isn't it?
Cut all their financialresources off?
Tamsin Caine (33:01):
if they had any in the first place.
But, yes, do you see a widerange of different people in the
refuges?
Because I guess there's this,there's this image that this is,
this doesn't happen to thewealthy, it doesn't happen to
people who've got money, butactually that is not the case at
(33:23):
all, is it?
And?
And a refuge is somewhere thatis your safe, is the place
that's been kind of planned outto be the safe escape route if
you, if your safety is in indanger.
I just want to kind of um layto rest some urban myths,
because we don't.
We want people out there toknow it's, you know it's, it's
(33:47):
anybody.
This is not.
It does not discriminate.
Karen Gray (33:51):
I think as well, it's because you get such a lot.
It can be anybody, absolutelyanybody, and I think that nobody
can say that they could neverbe in that position.
But I think what you have toappreciate is that they have
refuges, they have homes wherethey take people in to protect
them, but they also have a widerange of outreach services that
(34:14):
the public can use and they canhelp you and support you remain
in your home, provided it's safefor them to do so and they can
access the support that theygive at that at those refuges.
And so I think that's why youget such a and such a wide range
of people that are goingthrough this, and I work with
(34:36):
one woman, um Chad, who, whoactually specializes in helping
over 50s.
Well, they've had careers, youknow, and they're in really good
positions and she supports them.
So I think it's because theyare reaching out and able to
reach out to so many people, butthey don't realise that they
(34:59):
can access that support and theycan give them advice on housing
budgeting, even counselling forchildren, which you can access
quicker, actually, than if youwent through the GP and the
sources that they can give.
It's just, it's amazing thework that they do to support
(35:23):
people and you know I feelprivileged that I'm able to give
them that service, to be ableto help them?
Tamsin Caine (35:30):
absolutely no, it's incredible.
It is an incredible thing thatyou're, that you're doing and,
like you say, it's, it doesn'tdiscriminate by age, by gender,
really, by sexuality, by race.
You know, unfortunately thistouches across the board,
although we believe that womenare more susceptible, but that
(35:57):
may be in the number becausewomen are more likely perhaps to
come forward, but that remainsto be seen.
I think I know you talkedearlier, before we came on and
started recording, about gettingSarah involved.
How are you hoping that she'llbe able to help with the refuges
(36:22):
as well?
Karen Gray (36:24):
Well, she'll be able to give them workshops with
strategies and things to put inplace.
I think that Sarah would beinvaluable to them because they
wouldn't be service users inparticular that are in refuge,
wouldn't be able to access it,and it's something that I know
(36:46):
that the Pathway Project arekeen to, you know to work out
with her, Sarah.
So I think that she would helpa lot of them.
They're very, very emotional,some of them because they've
literally been turned upsidedown and I think it would be
(37:08):
really good that she would beable to give them a good
emotional support and then wecan collaborate and give them
some legal advice as well, sothey benefit and it's a holistic
approach.
Sorry, my teeth got in a tumblethen.
Sarah Steele (37:23):
I do that all the time.
I think it's well tamped inbecause part of my training on
the master practitioner wasSarah Davison.
We had the privilege of sittingin on the Freedom Programme and
listening to that for 10 weeksand obviously offering support
and coaching on that.
So I've got a good idea of whatthey cover in those programmes.
(37:46):
But I think to take it a bitfurther, um would be, would be
ideal.
So, yes, to sort of formulatesome type of workshop, to sort
of um moving on to sort ofenhance that would would be
lovely, um, so I'm lookingforward to having that
collaboration with, with Karenand the team at Pathway.
Tamsin Caine (38:03):
That sounds incredible.
Just um, just for thoselistening who don't know what,
can you tell us a bit more aboutthe Freedom Programme?
Just thinking in case anybody'slistening and hasn't heard of
it.
Sarah Steele (38:14):
It's a while ago where I sort of probably about a
year ago now, but it's theprogramme that they offer in the
refuge and it covers 10 weeks.
It's a 10-week course and itcovers various things.
I can't remember much, but Iremember the King of the Castle.
It talks about the behaviors,basically, and you have um, I
(38:34):
think it's a council that wassitting there who just talked
through um the differentbehaviors and obviously they
invite the women to comment,should they wish to.
Um, and I followed the programfor 10 weeks.
So initially, you know, thewomen we work with the same the
same women weren't saying verymuch.
Then, really, sort of by weekby week, by week three, week
four, they became a little bitmore sort of um conversational
(38:56):
about it, but it just sort ofspoke about behaviors, covered
children, it covered all typesof things, um, but it just again
was bringing them to theawareness of the fact of
different behaviors that anabusive personality displays and
also the impact it has on them.
So that's what I would like tobuild on.
But, uh, had you given me theheads up, I could have got my
(39:16):
book out and told you a bit moreabout it there's a follow-on
from it as well.
Karen Gray (39:21):
There's a follow-on.
I I recommend that my clientsto to access the freedom program
because and they always saythey just don't want to talk
about things then but I thinkevery person that has gone and
completed it has come back andsaid it's been invaluable and it
was such a comfort to theeducation that it gave them and
(39:45):
and the believing them as well.
Sarah Steele (39:47):
Um, it was amazing it's about the education part.
It's about you know, help themunderstand why they feel like
they do, you know, and theimpact that you know being in an
abusive relationship has on youand, as I say, it's emotional,
psychological and physical, um,and just that sort of
encouragement that you will getthrough it.
It's not your fault and it'snot acceptable and you don't
(40:10):
have to accept abuse on anylevel and it just keep
reiterating.
Reiterating that because quitea few of them, as I said, been
made to feel they were at fault,it was their fault.
It's the blame shifting thatreally sort of gets to people as
well yeah,
Tamsin Caine (40:24):
absolutely no, it sounds.
It sounds an incredibly usefulprogram and it's funny that you
say that people often don'tdon't want to when you first
offer it.
And I wonder if there's a.
There's a point at which youkind of get get a little bit
down the line and you think, ok,I'm ready.
Now.
It's such a huge thing to haveto leave that relationship that
(40:54):
I think you know and you bothmentioned this earlier that that
taking time to breathe andtaking time to just just step
back and go for a walk and havea cup of tea and and and sort of
feel safe, you know, just thatis is an incredible achievement,
for, for anybody you know it'suh, it really is quite something
(41:14):
.
Um, we're coming to the end ofour time together.
I told you this ago quick, isthere anything?
Um, you've got to add Karen.
I'll start with you before we,before we finish up
Karen Gray (41:28):
um, I don't think so .
I just think that, um, if anylisteners can support any of the
local women's refuges in anylittle way, um, it's invaluable
to them, especially coming up toChristmas, then gifts for um
children for Christmas, anythinglike that, because often if
(41:49):
people have to go into refugeaccommodation, they don't have a
choice.
They are literally in theclothes that they're standing in
and they have nothing.
Toiletries are invaluablebecause they give them toiletry
packages on arrival so they'vegot their own stuff to have.
Anything like that would be
Tamsin Caine (42:10):
amazing'm sure brilliant.
Thank you for that.
That's it.
That's really good advice whenI was hearing yesterday from Sam
Billingham about the buddy bagsas well for children, which
which again is it's a reallyincredible thing to do.
So, if anybody can help, thatwould be absolutely amazing.
If you need the services, thenplease make sure you get in
(42:34):
touch with them safely or get afriend or colleague at work.
Anybody that you can contact.
Contact them safely.
And, Sarah, anything that you'dlike to add before we finish up
?
Sarah Steele (42:47):
I think it's just keep campaigning, keep raising
awareness of domestic abuse onsocial media platforms,
especially LinkedIn.
I think there's been a lot onthat recently.
I think it's amazing that QueenCamilla did that television
programme last week.
I think her speaking out isgoing to really make people
think and that's what we need todo.
You know, abuse can happenanywhere and it goes on behind
(43:09):
closed doors
yeah absolutely, absolutely.
we often don't know, do we.
Thank you so much to both ofyou for joining me.
It's been absolutely wonderfulto talk to you both, um, and
keep up the great work and Ilook forward to uh, to hearing
more as you uh, as you moveforward.
But thank you to hearing moreas you move forward.
But thank you, hi, and I hopeyou enjoyed that episode of the
(43:36):
Smart Divorce Podcast.
If you would like to get intouch, please have a look in the
show notes for our details orgo onto the website, www.
smartdivorce.
co.
uk.
Also, if you are listening onApple Podcasts or on Spotify and
you wouldn't mind leaving us alovely five-star review, that
would be fantastic.
(43:57):
I know that lots of ourlisteners are finding this is
incredibly helpful in theirjourney through separation,
divorce and dissolving a civilpartnership.
Also, if you would like somefurther support, we do have a
Facebook group now.
It's called Separation, divorceand Dissolution UK.
(44:18):
Please do go on to Facebook,search up the group and we'd be
delighted to have you join us.
The one thing I would say is doplease answer their membership
questions.
Okay, have a great day and takecare.
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