May 9, 2025 • 42 mins
In this compelling episode of The Sober Butterfly, host Nadine sits down with Nick Jonsson—a TEDx speaker, bestselling author, Ironman athlete, and sobriety coach—to explore the journey from addiction and executive burnout to purpose-driven recovery.
Nick opens up about his experience with executive loneliness, the hidden struggles behind high-performing professionals, and how hitting rock bottom ultimately became the launchpad for a radically transformed life.
Together, Nadine and Nick dive into topics like the power of community support, gray area drinking, and the importance of holistic wellness in sobriety. Nick also shares how sobriety improved his athletic performance and led him to create a coaching practice to help others reclaim their lives.
🎙️ Highlights from this episode:
- 00:39 – Rapid Fire with Nick Jonsson
- 02:54 – Nick’s story: Success, silence, and addiction
- 06:27 – His breaking point and beginning the path to recovery
- 09:55 – Why making amends is a crucial part of healing
- 16:03 – What it means to live a life beyond your wildest dreams
- 21:45 – Wellness strategies that actually work in sobriety
- 27:42 – What data can teach us about alcohol’s impact
- 33:49 – Why coaching and community are recovery game-changers
- 38:23 – Sneak peek of Nick’s upcoming book
Whether you're sober-curious, in recovery, or supporting someone on their journey, Nick’s wisdom will leave you feeling inspired and empowered.
📘 Resources Mentioned:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
the-sober-butterfly_2_02 (00:01):
Hello, hello, and welcome to The Sober
Butterfly.
I'm so excited today because weare joined with a very special
guest.
We have Nick Johnson here now.
Nick is a TEDx speaker,bestselling author.
Sobriety coach, and he's here todiscuss the power of recovery
and leadership.
(00:22):
So stay tuned for today'sepisode.
Nick, I want to welcome you tothe show.
I feel like there's so manytitles that you have, so I
probably didn't do justice, butI'm so honored to have you on
today.
How are you?
nick-jonsson_2_02-11-2025_060 (00:34):
I am doing great.
Thank you so much, Nadine, forinviting me to speak on this
topic.
the-sober-butterfly_2_02-10-2 (00:39):
I am so excited to have you get
into it, and I like to start myepisodes with sort of like a
rapid fire getting to know you.
Is that okay?
Can I ask you some quickquestions?
nick-jonsson_2_02-1 (00:53):
Absolutely.
the-sober-butterfly_2_02- (00:54):
Okay.
So I know because I've done someresearch, you are.
part of the 2% World Iron Mancommunity, I'll call it as an
athlete.
So my first question for you,Nick, is what is your favorite
pre-race meal?
nick-jonsson_2_02-11-202 (01:14):
Prera, it's bread and peanut butter, so
lots of energy.
the-sober-butterfly_2_02 (01:18):
that's a good one.
I'm obsessed with bread so I canget behind that.
It's like healthy fats as wellwith the peanut butter.
So, great.
Pre-race meal.
What is one book that you canrecommend to everyone?
nick-jonsson_2_02-11-2025_060 (01:29):
A book called Manhood by Steve
Del.
So while it's manhood one wouldthink it's for men, but it's
also actually a wonderful bookfor women to read to also
understand men better.
the-sober-butterfly_2_0 (01:42):
that's, that's a hot topic here on the
show.
The majority of my listeners arewomen.
So when you said manhood, I'mlike, Hmm.
I don't know if that willresonate, but good to know that
we can sort of get into theminds of your gender.
So I will add that to my list.
I.
Thank you for sharing.
is a quote or mantra you liveby?
nick-jonsson_2_02-11-2025_06 (02:02):
It is a quote that I picked up from
a friend who is a cyclist.
He says It's never too late togrow young.
the-sober-butterfly_2_02-10-2 (02:09):
I love that it's never too late to
grow young.
I guess you're as young as youfeel or as you aspire to feel.
then my last question I have foryou is, what is a surprising
fact about yourself that mostpeople would not guess?
nick-jonsson_2_02-11-2025 (02:24):
Well, I was born on May one in Sweden,
and that's a labor day.
It's a public holiday.
When there's fireworks, there'sparades, there's all kind of
things.
And as a child, when I grew up,I fought that that party was put
on to celebrate my birthday.
the-sober-butterfly_2_02-10-2 (02:42):
I love that.
That's amazing.
That's so cool.
You're like all of this for me.
Thank you for sharing that andthank you for playing.
Get to know Nick.
So, I wanna open theconversation.
To learn a little bit more aboutyour journey.
Like you have this termexecutive loneliness.
Can you kind of describe to uswhat that journey looked like
(03:02):
from executive loneliness andaddiction to becoming, you know,
Nick today as a sobriety coachand Ironman athlete?
Can you share a little bit aboutwhat led you to your personal,
I'll quote rock bottom, and howyou took the first steps towards
recovery.
nick-jonsson_2_02-11-202 (03:20):
Right.
It'd been my pleasure to sharethat.
So about 10 years ago, I was atthe peak of my corporate career.
I was a general manager in alarge medical company running
plenty of, clinics and hospitalsand medical personnel all over
Indonesia.
So it was a high pressure job.
I did very well commerciallyand, and bringing in business
(03:41):
and so on.
However, I was surrounded bydoctors, operational staff and
so on.
It was quite technical anddifficult as well.
I.
So I can remember many timessitting in meetings feeling, you
know, completely left outta theconversations, not being
involved in it because Icouldn't understand it.
It was just not my technicalityas I'm not a doctor myself.
(04:01):
And so I remember leaving theoffice many times, you know,
feeling completely drained,completely isolated, not
understood, no one to talk toand so on.
And those feelings.
I was not able to discuss themat that time.
I also didn't have a safe space.
I didn't have a coach to sharethem with.
So what I did instead was goingto the bar, seeing some friends
(04:21):
having a great time and drinkingsome beers to forget all about
it.
And that though, became a badhabit and it picked up more and
more and more until I lostcontrol a bit later on.
So that was the beginning of allof this when I started to come
across the the loneliness thatyou can feel in the workplace.
the-sober-butterfly_2_02- (04:40):
Yeah.
Thank you.
I feel like so many people canresonate or relate to that drank
as well to.
Escape.
It was definitely a form ofescapism.
And it's funny because I thinkdrinking starts off for a lot of
people as a, a social activity,or at least for me it did.
But then I found toward the endof my drinking that I was
(05:00):
drinking more alone and I feltreally isolated even in.
Company of other people.
So thank you for sharing that.
I think that's a theme that alot of people can resonate.
So kind of walk through, whatwas that turning point for you?
So you're in this high pressurejob, you know, you're doing well
professionally, but internallyit sounds, or personally you
(05:21):
weren't feeling maybe assuccessful.
So walk us through what that key
nick-jonsson_2_02-11-2025_ (05:26):
And.
the-sober-butterfly_2_02-10- (05:27):
in your life or that pivotal point
in time where you decided tochange courses or change
direction.
nick-jonsson_2_02-11-2025 (05:34):
Yeah.
So in that job then for a whileI was, you know, feeling more
and more lost and I thereforealso start to drink more.
I started to.
Exercise less, replaced myhealthy diet with fast food and
pizza, gained weight and so on.
And with that, then eventually Iresigned from that job and then
(05:55):
I jumped from job to job where Ifailed and I increased my
drinking and also went throughmy, my savings financial issues
came, and with that then I filedfor divorce at home.
Because I was just feeling lostin, on, in all ar areas of my
life.
So that led me eventually thento my rock bottom and from the
(06:16):
rock bottom though.
And eventually I, I'm glad tosay that I managed to find my
way back up, but it was abouttwo, three years of a downward
spiral before I reached thatpoint.
the-sober-butterfly_2_02-10 (06:28):
And so when you decided that you no
longer wanted to stay at thatbottom.
Can you give us, I like specificexamples because I feel like
everyone's rock bottom may lookdifferent.
Right?
So what happened?
(06:48):
Like, what was that day like?
Walk us through that momentwhere you just realized, okay,
something has to change.
nick-jonsson_2_02-11-2025 (06:55):
Yeah, I can remember it quite clearly.
It was 2018 and again, it was onmy birthday and I'd met the girl
who was my girlfriend, who todayis my wife.
And I remember telling her thatI would stop on the birthday and
I remember I.
Trying to stop alcohol that day.
And around lunchtime I gave up.
I just couldn't do it.
(07:15):
So I asked her to go and buysome beer for me, which she did
because she was supportive andunderstanding at that day for
me.
And then we said we make a planagain, and we did that.
So I drank those beers and thenext day we went back to a
hospital.
That were able to then help mewith a, a detox that day and
(07:35):
getting the medication I neededand the advice we needed.
And as I walked out of there Ihaven't had a drink since, since
then.
That's, no, almost seven yearsnow.
the-sober-butterfly_ (07:44):
beautiful.
So it sounds as though you werein sort of like a
pre-contemplation slashcontemplation phase for quite
some time, and I feel like somany people I.
Put that pressure on themselves,like they project their last day
of drinking or using to acertain day, and then that day
arrives and you're like,actually, I'm gonna need some
(08:04):
more help.
I'm gonna need some moresupport.
Because there's a willingnesspiece, which I think is crucial,
right?
Like you have to be willing andwanting to change.
But the action piece.
necessarily align with you justwanting to change.
So I, I feel like that's soimportant to note that you
needed a little bit more supportand help to get you there, so
(08:25):
thank you for sharing
nick-jonsson_2_02-11-2025_ (08:26):
Hmm.
the-sober-butterfly_2_02-1 (08:26):
when you went to that inpatient
facility at the hospital, whatcourse or what program did they
recommend to help you detox anddecide to never drink again,
essentially.
nick-jonsson_2_02-11-2025 (08:38):
Well, they wanted to inpatient me at
that stage, but I didn't wantto, and they, they were okay to
not inpatient me.
And I remember getting somemedication and injection.
I remember coming back andseeing the doctor 24 hours later
as well.
And then.
After that, what I did was toget more support and I went into
one of those 12 step programswhere I got the support, felt
(09:01):
again, understood.
I was around other people who'dgone through it before.
And the first two, three years Iattended plenty of those
meetings every week.
Yeah, sometimes almost everyday.
And through that, then I foundmyself and really coming back in
all areas of my life and in, ina better way and form than I
ever had been before.
the-sober-butterfly_2 (09:21):
Powerful.
So it sounds like the 12 stepprogram offered a sense of
support in community andconnection, and often we hear
that the opposite of any form ofaddiction is connection.
So one of the interesting parts,because I've.
Been, to meetings.
I did not follow a full 12 stepprogram, full disclosure.
(09:44):
But I'm well familiar with theliterature and the power of
connection and community, but apart that I think scares so many
people, making amends.
Did you find that, you know, asa part of going through the 12
step program, you make amendsand can you share what your
experience with this practicehad on?
(10:07):
Your life, and more importantly,I would say like the
relationship itself and withothers.
nick-jonsson_2_02-11-2025_ (10:12):
Yes, I do remember the, the step of
making amends and indeed it'svery scary.
But what I found was that the,you know, it was also a very
nice thing to do because whilethere was some big amends with
some family members and so on,which occurred, which was
wonderful to once you have donethem the feeling was amazing.
It was also.
(10:33):
A lot of the smaller amends thatI have done over the years,
including, you know, makingamends and apologize to a high
school friend who.
Perhaps you were part of a groupand you bullied that person, you
know, and for me that's 35 yearsago or something like that.
And actually reaching out toreconnect and you're setting up
(10:53):
a lunch with that person who Ihaven't seen for so many years.
And during the lunch by just,you know, saying, by the way, I
am sorry about, you know.
Being part of that group, wewere bullying you.
At that time I remembered thatthat was not the right thing to
do and I just wanted to knowthat I'm sorry about that.
And, and then saying that, youknow, is there anything I can
(11:13):
do?
And I remember that person then,you know, really getting
emotional.
In this case, the one Imentioned, I was a girl and, you
know, shedding a few tears and,you know, really connecting.
Thing and now being really closeand good friends again.
So is a, that is the power of amen's, right?
So why it's painful and, and, alot of anxiety around it.
(11:34):
It's a wonderful thing to do.
the-sober-butterfly_2_02-10 (11:36):
Did you make amends to your ex-wife?
I'm sorry to pry, but I'mcurious because it sounds like
the dissolution of your marriagewas connected to that rock
bottom or that dark periodbefore sobriety.
So did you ever reach back outto her?
nick-jonsson_2_02-1 (11:52):
Absolutely.
It was massive and major work tobe done there.
And it's still going ongoingwith living amend perhaps not
every day, but.
Every week, certainly.
And I also to my son, we have a,a shared son who today is 15
years of age.
So it was a lot of amens to bemade there as well to him
(12:12):
perhaps since he was little.
And now he's 15, but he's moreliving amens and also because
they live.
In a different part of theworld.
They live in Sweden, and at thattime I, I didn't negotiate for
any custody or anything else.
I just was sick when we, I filedfor the divorce and I realize
that she was in a bettersituation and better state to
(12:35):
take care of our son.
But now the relationship with myex wife have be on, have been
repaired to the point where.
She happily send him to come andvisit me in Southeast Asia once
a year.
That means that she has to signa letter that, you know, he is
allowed to travel overseas byhimself to see me.
And that's happened now for fouryears.
(12:55):
And that's without me asking.
It's, it is just happenednaturally.
So I think that's a testament ofthe trust that has been restored
in, in that relationship.
We probably have a betterrelationship now than when we
were married.
the-sober-butterfly_2 (13:08):
beautiful to hear.
And
nick-jonsson_2_02-11-2025_ (13:10):
Hmm,
the-sober-butterfly_2_02 (13:11):
amends to yourself?
nick-jonsson_2_02-11-2025_ (13:13):
yes.
It's also about forgiving myselffor what was there and realize
here that it was alcohol thatactually took the better from
me.
Once that was removed.
I am the real person, the moreauthentic myself who I wasn't
when alcohol was sort of runningthe show.
the-sober-butterfly_2_02-1 (13:31):
Yes, agreed.
And I, I also had to forgive andlet go of past grievances things
that I did to myself, becausehonestly, the person that was
probably the most impacted wasme.
Right.
And I think it's so easy tofocus on other people as we
(13:51):
should.
I.
We should reach out and weshould make sure that other
people understand that we aresorry for our wrongdoings.
But at the same time, it's like,don't forget that the person
standing in front of you andthat mirror is you.
And you said the word sick.
I think that is very, that'svery true.
Like.
We are sick when we are usingand we're when we're in that
(14:13):
state.
So it's like now we're healingand we're working and we're
trying.
And so it's like give yourselfgrace is the point I'm making
here.
thank you for sharing all ofthat.
That's really powerful, Nick.
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the-sober-butterfly_3_02-10-2 (16:03):
I would love to talk a little bit
about your book.
I know that you talk extensivelyand really I think the beauty of
your book is this idea of livingbeyond your wildest dreams.
What dreams did you have foryourself, Nick?
And what dreams, I guess, beforeI even ask you that question,
(16:23):
what dreams were you.
when you were using, because Ithink sometimes we have
something inside of us that isdriving us to drink.
And when we are in that state,we're letting go of things that
are important to us that maybewe think we're incapable of
reaching goals or dreams.
(16:45):
So I would love to know from youbefore you talk about, you know,
your dreams and your,inspiration for this book.
Like what were your dreams thatyou were sort of repressing.
Or stifling when you weredrinking?
nick-jonsson_3_02-11-2025 (16:58):
Yeah, so I had goals, I had visions,
and I had dreams also back then,but perhaps they were.
Very different from what I havenow in my life.
Perhaps they were the, thestandard, uh, you know, dreams
that most people have.
Uh, maybe it was about, youknow, having a big house, having
(17:20):
a car, those kind of normalthings.
Uh.
I didn't necessarily have dreamsto have wonderful connections
with people and deeprelationships and attempting
relationships and all of thosethings.
That was not on my list.
I just couldn't picture it, Ithink.
And, uh, I thought that, youknow, I'm, I was born introvert
(17:41):
and the, I should feel outside.
I should feel a bit odd.
I shouldn't perhaps feel that Ican belong everywhere.
That was sort of.
Something that I accepted and,therefore I couldn't perhaps
dream bigger and I couldn't havebigger reasons for myself.
the-sober-butterfly_3_02- (17:57):
Yeah, I connect with that.
The superficial things that Ithought I wanted that were so
important to me and were drivinga lot of my decision making and
also drinking, if I'm beinghonest, because I felt like I
wasn't living up to my potentialor optimizing my life for these
things that like are just thingslike they weren't, to your
point, authentic connections andlike building true community
(18:19):
like all of the things youmentioned that are beyond just.
The surface.
And so it sounds like yourpriorities shifted once you got
sober.
So now walk us through what thatwas like for you.
What dreams did you, or goals orvision did you find in sobriety
(18:39):
that you didn't recognize beforeor have realized before?
nick-jonsson_3_02-11-2025 (18:44):
Yeah, and, and first it is the
continuity because also drinkingalways shattered my dreams, even
if I was on the right path todo.
Something, then something wouldcome in the way and some trouble
would come in the way and itwould destroy everything and put
me back to zero.
Now it's the continuity and it'sthe resilience of keep going,
(19:04):
and if anything becomesdifficult, it's about seeking
help for that one.
And.
Uh, therefore, you know, sort ofyour network and your
connections becomes yourgreatest strength because you're
open and honest about theshortcomings.
Therefore, you know, the life Ihave now is really beyond my
wildest dreams.
Indeed, uh, I have lived andworked in Southeast Asia last 20
(19:27):
years.
But I have now repackaged mylife and put my community and
health and so on first.
So, uh, while I'm mainly workingin Singapore, Indonesia, and
Malaysia and so on, my backoffice and where I spend time,
I.
These days and where I'm todayis actually in, in Pke,
Thailand.
I have a triathlon communityhere.
(19:49):
And after our, our call today, Iwill actually go out cycling
with a community here.
So those are the things that Iwas dreaming about, but now I
can actually make them happen aswell.
So that is the major difference.
I'm sort of living what I, thatkind of life beyond my wireless
dreams.
I could picture it perhapsbefore, but I would have no idea
(20:10):
how to make it happen.
the-sober-butterfly_3_0 (20:13):
That's.
Profound.
I, first of all, I love puke.
I have spent two summers thereand I'm obsessed with the and
wellness community that's there.
I actually did Tiger Mo Thai,the, um, the camp.
Have you heard of it?
nick-jonsson_3_02-11-2025 (20:31):
Yeah.
Hmm.
the-sober-butterfly_3_02-10- (20:32):
Of course, I'm sure.
Anyway, how do you, balance yourroles because you have many
roles, as mentioned, you are acoach, you're a speaker, you're
an athlete, you're an author.
So how do you balance your rolesand also maintain your sobriety?
nick-jonsson_3_02-11-2025 (20:49):
Yeah, so it's about putting myself
first, and I do that by thenbeing in this healthy community
and there's a strong recoverycommunity here as well.
Uh, so, so that is the beautifulthing.
And uh, actually, I.
Where I live is in that areathat you're talking about where,
you know, most people are herefor the health aspect of things
and therefore there's a bigrecovery community here as well.
(21:11):
Uh, there's quite a few rehabsand those kind of places, in
this area as well.
So therefore, you know, I'msurrounded being by what I need
to have.
So it's, for me, it's, it'sconstant reminders, you know, to
putting, recovery and my healthfirst, and that is the
foundation for everything and.
After that, then uh, everythingelse becomes sort of easier, uh,
(21:33):
in that sense.
And I integrate, of course, mycoaching, speaking with my
writing.
I'm writing my second book aswell now, so it's all coming
together very nicely.
the-sober-butterfly_3_02-10 (21:45):
And can you share with us, any
strategies or habits that helpyou maintain your focus in
recovery and on your health andwellness?
nick-jonsson_3_02-11-2025 (21:55):
Yeah, it's, it's really the foundation
here by eating well, sleepingwell, and having a good
exercise.
I see myself when I'm exercisingas the CEO of my business, sort
of the strategist.
It's when I get the creativegood ideas.
Um, and therefore I think I oweto myself to do that every day
for a few hours, uh, uh, even ifit's light exercise.
(22:18):
And I see myself perhaps as themanager, as the administrator.
When I'm in front of thecomputer, so I need to remind
myself that's not where I growmy business or where I really
get the important things done.
So it's about closing down thecomputer and, and getting out
there and meeting people andexercising.
the-sober-butterfly_3_ (22:37):
Movement is crucial and I feel like that
has been really the baseline andthe foundation of maintaining
and sustaining sobriety for me,like my mental health is not
okay unless I know that I amconnected to my body and present
and taking what I need and alsothinking about what I ingest.
It's funny because I don't know.
(22:59):
well, actually, you did mentionwhen I was drinking, I still
thought of myself as a healthnut, which is very contradictory
and ironic, like I worked outall the time, but at the same
time I was ingesting poison.
I.
day almost.
So it's a very interestingduality that coexisted for me
where it was like I thought Iwas being healthy and
(23:20):
prioritizing my health, but inreality I was not.
So thank you for sharing that.
And I wanna kind of talk alittle bit about your work with
clients and helpingprofessionals who are in that
gray zone area that youmentioned in your book.
So what are some of the commonmisconceptions.
(23:40):
They have, and when I say they,I mean gray area drinkers.
nick-jonsson_3_02-11-2025_ (23:44):
Hmm.
the-sober-butterfly_3_02-1 (23:45):
What misconceptions do they have
about sobriety?
nick-jonsson_3_02-11-2025 (23:48):
Yeah, so while, uh, I was not the gray
zone drinker towards the end, Ihad really become a day drinker
and so on.
What I have realized in sobrietyis that there's quite a lot of
people and increasingly so whowant to explore sobriety.
We have a healthy waves.
We see that.
People are playing with thebecome vegan and vegetarians and
(24:11):
all kind of things because theywanna look after themselves.
We can just see the trend ofpeople choosing almond milk and
and so on over dairy.
So people are Yeah, yeah, metoo.
So, keep.
People are really more healthconscious these days and
therefore, uh, uh, like yousaid, how can you call yourself,
you know, being healthy and uh,and what's the point of
(24:34):
exercising every day if weinject poisoning ourselves?
And I'm.
Please to, uh, see that.
Finally, we start to accept andunderstand that alcohol is
poison.
However, in the, in thecountries where I live in, it's
still not the warning on, on thelabels that alcohol is a toxin.
It is on tobacco.
It's still not in most of thecountries where I live and spend
(24:55):
time on alcohol, but I'm prettysure it would be around the
corner.
But we are the, we are.
Groundbreakers here we are aheadof the politicians and
understand that this is poison,so maybe we should have a
conversation about it.
And that's the message for agray zone drinker, uh, not to
wait for that label there and tounderstand that, hey, it is
actually poison.
(25:15):
So let's, let's perhaps have aconversation and change our
relationship with alcohol.
Uh, and, and I'm getting moreand more calls from people and
those kind of people who arehealth conscious, who now
understand that this might notbe the best, uh, way moving
forward if I want to live ahealthy life.
the-sober-butterfly_3_02- (25:32):
Yeah.
I think too, going back to whatI mentioned before around being.
Misaligned with my goals and mydreams or what I thought were my
goals and dreams.
They were very superficial and Ithink a lot of my health
decision making was superficialas well.
I wanted to look good, but likeaesthetically looking good on
(25:53):
the outside does not necessarilyreflect what's going on
internally, and I think a lot ofpeople to have a bit more
discernment around.
Okay.
Do you wanna be healthy becauseyou just wanna look good or look
like a healthy person?
Or do you actually want to behealthy?
Because that's the part I thinksometimes we're still
disconnected on and it takessome time to come to that
(26:15):
realization that I.
Alcohol is never gonna aid, orsubstance is never gonna aid you
in becoming a healthy person.
Like you can fake it, but thereality is it will catch up to
you one day.
Even if it physically doesn'tcatch up to you, it's like
performance wise, right?
You're, you're not going goingto be your optimal self.
And so I came to thatrealization, obviously in
(26:37):
sobriety, but I think a lot ofpeople are, to your point,
having the conversation around,okay, awareness, it's access to
information and knowledge.
And once you have theinformation, it's like, well,
how much longer can I feignignorance?
How much longer can I pretendthat it's okay to just, you
know, numb and drink and party?
Probably not that much longer.
(26:58):
So I see a lot to say that.
I agree with everything thatyou've mentioned and I love that
you, in your coaching servicesand conversations with people
are also letting them know thatthere is.
A disconnect if you are nottaking care of yourself in all
capacities and questioning therole that alcohol plays in your
true fitness or wellness goals.
(27:21):
so I'm also curious to learnfrom you, Nick, how do you
encourage people to reevaluatetheir relationship with alcohol
without.
Labeling because I think it canbe very jarring and overwhelming
to tell someone that maybe theyhave a problem with alcohol.
So how do you have thoseconversations without that
stigma or that judgment?
nick-jonsson_3_02-11-2025 (27:42):
Well, it's easier to have these
conversations these days becausewe have so many devices that,
uh, we can track.
We have watches and rings and soon where, actually, the alcohol
consumption typically is quiteblack and white there.
We didn't have that luxury 10years ago, so I was still doing
triathlons 10 years ago, and Ican remember.
(28:02):
Drinking alcohol pretty close tofull distance Ironman race.
And I remember cramping in theswim and almost drowning.
So that was an indicator, thatwas an indicator for me that,
you know, this might not be agood thing to drink and do, do
this kind of sports.
Right.
Uh, but my point being thatthese days then that the
coaching clients that I have, ifthey start to take, you know,
(28:25):
one month.
Uh, as the first step, as a goalto be sober.
Then if they wear the devices,you will start to see the rest
heart rate coming down the HRVvalue, uh, which is a reflection
on your health to reallystabilize and come down.
And you really start to see alsothat you're sleeping better.
And overall, these devices willjust tell you that you know,
(28:47):
your health is absolutelyfantastic.
So if someone is healthconscious, then all you can do
is to, to work with them over amonth, and then you compare.
One month of your data when youwere still drinking and one
month in sobriety, then there'sno denial anymore.
So that's uh, some of thebenefits that you can see in
black and white these days.
the-sober-butterfly_3_02-10-2 (29:08):
I love the framing of that too,
because it depersonalizes it forsomeone.
It's not necessarily me tellingyou that you have a problem.
It's like, here are the data,here are the data points.
You look at it, you see, andtreating it like a social
experiment is something thatcomes up a lot for me, where
it's like.
Instead of overwhelming peoplewith this idea that you should
never drink again, it's liketake a break if you can, and to
(29:30):
your point, compare, look at thedata, track it and see how you
feel.
And also look at your differenthealth indicators and how
they've changed over the courseof X amount of time.
So I, I like that because Ithink it shows people that.
You can't argue with facts.
It's like staring at you in yourface.
What is it like being an IronMan athlete?
(29:54):
I would love to hear, becausequite literally you're in the
top 2% the world and I ran myfirst marathon sober.
I.
realized a dream that I neverthought would be possible, which
was to run the New York CityMarathon back in 2023.
And that was incredible for mebecause the pandemic I started
(30:15):
to run.
That's when I first, you know,I.
my abilities as a runner and Iwould force myself to get out
there because there was nothingelse for me to do.
But I would work my workoutsaround being hungover.
I would work my workouts aroundpunishing myself because I felt
ashamed of how much I drank.
(30:36):
I would work out, I would workor plan my workouts around.
Determining, know, I have towork out first thing in the
morning or run first thing inthe morning because I know
tonight I'm gonna drink.
So I, it was just the mentalgymnastics of trying to fit
running into my life when inreality I was not really
optimizing my performance as arunner until I got sober.
(30:58):
And then I was actually like, Ilove this.
I'm good at this.
I'm not punishing myself.
I can actually be a runner nowand do something hard like
running a marathon.
So walk us through what it'slike to be.
In this high class or highcaliber of athletes and what the
mental preparation and physicalpreparation looks like and how
it shifted.
Because you mentioned that youwere doing triathlons many years
(31:19):
ago.
nick-jonsson_3_02-11-2025_ (31:19):
Hmm.
the-sober-butterfly_3_02-1 (31:20):
Walk us through like that comparison,
because I think that's reallyimportant for people to hear and
understand yes, you can dosomething just because you're.
Drinking, but that doesn't meanit's gonna be your best
performance.
Do you understand what I'mgetting at?
I would love to hear a littlebit about what your life looked
like before and after gettingsober in regards to the
competitions like this.
nick-jonsson_3_02-11-2025 (31:39):
Yeah, sure.
And, and actually, so before Istopped drinking, I was also
doing the sport and um, I wastrying my best, you know, to
control my drinking balance, thedrinking, limited drinking, and
then doing those kind of sportswas sort of forcing myself to
not drink too much.
I would.
(32:00):
Typically just drink three ormaximum five beers on a, on a
weekday evening because I knewthat I would need to get up next
morning and I didn't wanna dothat with a hangover.
So it worked quite well for sometime.
However, then I thought, youknow, on Sundays and when the
training weeks sort of was over,that I deserved to have more
and.
(32:20):
Then sometimes it went overboardand I was drinking too much.
And it was a few times where Ipulled out a races, you know,
beforehand because I wasn't inthe form that I should have
been.
And I might have blamed stressand work.
But you know, looking back atit, it was clearly that it was
alcohol that was in the way thatlet me down.
So once then in sobriety.
(32:42):
All those issues are gone.
You know, there's, there's nolonger that issue and that sort
of inner fight with yourselfabout, doing that and that.
The controlling was not niceeither for anyone who likes
drinking, you know what it'slike if you are in the bar and
you've had three beers andeveryone else is staying and you
are leaving, that feeling is notnice.
So to not have that anymore is,is a true blessing, and my
(33:06):
performance have just increaseda lot as well, and I learn what
I learned also in.
My recovery was to ask for help.
And I do that with everything inmy life these days.
I do it when it comes to writingbook.
I ask people who've written abook to help me.
So I thought, why don't I do thesame with triathlons?
So I reached out also then tothe best swim coaches I could
(33:28):
find.
Running coaches, cyclingcoaches.
I have a trial long coach now.
Um, someone who's trainingnormally.
Professional athlete who, coachme.
Uh, and that is the secret thento climbing up, uh, so high in
the ranking is because I havegood support and, and that makes
all the difference.
the-sober-butterfly_3_02-1 (33:49):
That makes a huge difference at what
point in time did you get acoach and would you recommend
that everyone have some form ofhelp or coach in their life as
well?
I.
nick-jonsson_3_02-11-2025 (34:00):
Yeah, so I got a coach about four
years ago now and that made ahuge difference.
And I think no matter what sportwe are interested in, it's about
doubling down and I think almostbecome a bit obsessed with our
hobbies and and so on.
And then, you know, I also saywe need to belong to a tribe and
you know, we feel that we belongthere.
(34:22):
And then having a coach,typically they have that kind of
community as well.
So not only do I get a coach, Ialso get a, a triathlon
community.
And so everyone, depending ontheir hobbies and likes, they
can look at perhaps doublingdown on that.
And having a coach is a greatstart for that.
the-sober-butterfly_3_02-1 (34:40):
Yes.
I feel like in life.
You could benefit from a coach.
It's not just necessarilyconnected to a sport, but if you
think about it, life as ananalogy is a game or it's a
support, right?
It's not just about you.
It's about you in connection toother people.
Whether it's people that you'reracing against or racing with,
(35:02):
or that are on your team oragainst you.
Just this idea that everythingis and it's nice to your point,
to have someone in your corneradvising you.
Also connecting you to otherpeople.
It sounds so, I, I love that somuch.
Thank you for sharing that, Nick
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the-sober-butterfly_3_0 (37:04):
winding down here if someone listening
at home is struggling, maybethey feel stuck or maybe they
feel sick or scared to take thatfirst step toward sobriety or
thinking about the role alcoholis playing in their life.
What words of encouragement canyou offer for anyone who is
feeling stuck or scared?
nick-jonsson_3_02-11-2025 (37:25):
Yeah, I don't be scared of asking for
help, and I mean, there's somany different support systems
these days.
We discussed quite a few of themtoday.
On the call is everything fromthe 12.
Step programs, and it doesn'tmatter what addiction we are
falling into, there will beother people who've gone through
it before who are there to helpand give back.
There's also hotlines, there'shelplines full of volunteers and
(37:46):
a lot of them is free who canhelp.
But then of course we have thewonderful world of coaching
recovery for people who perhapswant to have a one-on-one
private conversation who want toget some support.
And some of the clients thatI've had, they come to me to
have a conversation and.
Then they agreed to test for amonth, and a few of those
(38:06):
clients now are, are threemonths sober, and some of them
are saying that they're neverlooking back and they wanna
remain in sobriety.
So it's about taking that firststep and, and just have perhaps
a conversation, with a sobercoach near you.
the-sober-butterfly_3_02-10-2 (38:20):
I love that.
Thank you.
that you mentioned that you areworking on a next book so what
does sort of the next chapterlook like for you, Nick, as you
continue inspiring other peoplethrough your journey?
nick-jonsson_3_02-11-2025 (38:34):
It's, uh, really to share what I've
learned my seven years insobriety, uh, with others and
giving this back in.
I created a five step formulafor my next book, which is
basically some of the best stepsthat I learned in the 12 step
recovery programs, but reallydoubling down then on community
(38:56):
and help and health and tying itall together.
So.
It's supposed to be a book foranyone who, who want to explore
sobriety and a bit of a hehealthier living.
the-sober-butterfly_4_02 (39:09):
That's incredible.
I think hearing people's storiesare truly life-changing and
profound and can really helpsomeone connect so that they
don't feel so alone.
I.
But I also think havingpractical measures and tools and
what you mentioned in the secondbook, it sounds like you've
created a framework.
(39:30):
I think that is amazing becauseI think sometimes we just need a
template.
Like we just need to know like,what steps do I need to take?
Or what can I do to get to thenext place?
And I, I think so often we canconvince ourselves that, oh, I
don't know what to do, so I'mnot gonna do anything about it.
(39:50):
So it's nice that you have.
Thought about this from a, aplace of obviously drawing from
your own experiences, but alsothen repurposing that into
something that someone else canpotentially follow or use to
help them.
And I, I don't think there's aone size fits all approach, and
I'm not suggesting that youthink that either.
But it's nice to have options,you know, it's nice to hear and
(40:12):
follow and be able to.
Find other resources outside ofwhat's been already presented.
So I really appreciate that andI'm really looking forward to
reading your book, your secondbook.
When does that come out, Nick?
nick-jonsson_4_02-11-2025_0 (40:25):
I'm writing it now and I hope to
have it done sort of aroundOctober this year.
the-sober-butterfly_4_02- (40:30):
Well, will you let us know when it's
ready?
I would be honored to read yourbook, your second book, and I
wanna thank you so much forcoming on the show.
If anyone wants to connect withyou, Nick, what's the best way
to do so?
nick-jonsson_4_02-11-2025_0 (40:43):
I'm pretty active on LinkedIn, so
they can look up Nick Johnson onLinkedIn or if anyone is
interested in my first book,executive Loneliness.
It's on Amazon and also onAudible.
the-sober-butterfly_4_02-10-2 (40:55):
I love Audible Audible's, actually
a sponsor of the show, so.
Cute audible ad.
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the-sober-butterfly_4_02-10-2 (42:10):
I think the executive loneliness
piece will resonate with a lotof people just because whether
you work in say, corporate ornot, we've all felt lonely at
times.
And loneliness can drive a lotof people to make decisions that
maybe they wouldn't have if theyfelt connected or or if they
felt like they had community.
So I appreciate.
All that you've done and allthat you've shared today, I've
(42:31):
learned so much about you andjust even reflecting it back to
my own experiences in sobriety.
So thank you Nick for coming onthe show and I look forward to
getting that second book.
And also I will plug everythingin the show notes for folks at
home.
Thank you, Nick.
nick-jonsson_4_02-11-2025 (42:47):
Thank you, Nadine.
Hello, hello, and welcome to The Sober
Butterfly.
I'm so excited today because weare joined with a very special
guest.
We have Nick Johnson here now.
Nick is a TEDx speaker,bestselling author.
Sobriety coach, and he's here todiscuss the power of recovery
and leadership.
(00:22):
So stay tuned for today'sepisode.
Nick, I want to welcome you tothe show.
I feel like there's so manytitles that you have, so I
probably didn't do justice, butI'm so honored to have you on
today.
How are you?
nick-jonsson_2_02-11-2025_060 (00:34):
I am doing great.
Thank you so much, Nadine, forinviting me to speak on this
topic.
the-sober-butterfly_2_02-10-2 (00:39):
I am so excited to have you get
into it, and I like to start myepisodes with sort of like a
rapid fire getting to know you.
Is that okay?
Can I ask you some quickquestions?
nick-jonsson_2_02-1 (00:53):
Absolutely.
the-sober-butterfly_2_02- (00:54):
Okay.
So I know because I've done someresearch, you are.
part of the 2% World Iron Mancommunity, I'll call it as an
athlete.
So my first question for you,Nick, is what is your favorite
pre-race meal?
nick-jonsson_2_02-11-202 (01:14):
Prera, it's bread and peanut butter, so
lots of energy.
the-sober-butterfly_2_02 (01:18):
that's a good one.
I'm obsessed with bread so I canget behind that.
It's like healthy fats as wellwith the peanut butter.
So, great.
Pre-race meal.
What is one book that you canrecommend to everyone?
nick-jonsson_2_02-11-2025_060 (01:29):
A book called Manhood by Steve
Del.
So while it's manhood one wouldthink it's for men, but it's
also actually a wonderful bookfor women to read to also
understand men better.
the-sober-butterfly_2_0 (01:42):
that's, that's a hot topic here on the
show.
The majority of my listeners arewomen.
So when you said manhood, I'mlike, Hmm.
I don't know if that willresonate, but good to know that
we can sort of get into theminds of your gender.
So I will add that to my list.
I.
Thank you for sharing.
is a quote or mantra you liveby?
nick-jonsson_2_02-11-2025_06 (02:02):
It is a quote that I picked up from
a friend who is a cyclist.
He says It's never too late togrow young.
the-sober-butterfly_2_02-10-2 (02:09):
I love that it's never too late to
grow young.
I guess you're as young as youfeel or as you aspire to feel.
then my last question I have foryou is, what is a surprising
fact about yourself that mostpeople would not guess?
nick-jonsson_2_02-11-2025 (02:24):
Well, I was born on May one in Sweden,
and that's a labor day.
It's a public holiday.
When there's fireworks, there'sparades, there's all kind of
things.
And as a child, when I grew up,I fought that that party was put
on to celebrate my birthday.
the-sober-butterfly_2_02-10-2 (02:42):
I love that.
That's amazing.
That's so cool.
You're like all of this for me.
Thank you for sharing that andthank you for playing.
Get to know Nick.
So, I wanna open theconversation.
To learn a little bit more aboutyour journey.
Like you have this termexecutive loneliness.
Can you kind of describe to uswhat that journey looked like
(03:02):
from executive loneliness andaddiction to becoming, you know,
Nick today as a sobriety coachand Ironman athlete?
Can you share a little bit aboutwhat led you to your personal,
I'll quote rock bottom, and howyou took the first steps towards
recovery.
nick-jonsson_2_02-11-202 (03:20):
Right.
It'd been my pleasure to sharethat.
So about 10 years ago, I was atthe peak of my corporate career.
I was a general manager in alarge medical company running
plenty of, clinics and hospitalsand medical personnel all over
Indonesia.
So it was a high pressure job.
I did very well commerciallyand, and bringing in business
(03:41):
and so on.
However, I was surrounded bydoctors, operational staff and
so on.
It was quite technical anddifficult as well.
I.
So I can remember many timessitting in meetings feeling, you
know, completely left outta theconversations, not being
involved in it because Icouldn't understand it.
It was just not my technicalityas I'm not a doctor myself.
(04:01):
And so I remember leaving theoffice many times, you know,
feeling completely drained,completely isolated, not
understood, no one to talk toand so on.
And those feelings.
I was not able to discuss themat that time.
I also didn't have a safe space.
I didn't have a coach to sharethem with.
So what I did instead was goingto the bar, seeing some friends
(04:21):
having a great time and drinkingsome beers to forget all about
it.
And that though, became a badhabit and it picked up more and
more and more until I lostcontrol a bit later on.
So that was the beginning of allof this when I started to come
across the the loneliness thatyou can feel in the workplace.
the-sober-butterfly_2_02- (04:40):
Yeah.
Thank you.
I feel like so many people canresonate or relate to that drank
as well to.
Escape.
It was definitely a form ofescapism.
And it's funny because I thinkdrinking starts off for a lot of
people as a, a social activity,or at least for me it did.
But then I found toward the endof my drinking that I was
(05:00):
drinking more alone and I feltreally isolated even in.
Company of other people.
So thank you for sharing that.
I think that's a theme that alot of people can resonate.
So kind of walk through, whatwas that turning point for you?
So you're in this high pressurejob, you know, you're doing well
professionally, but internallyit sounds, or personally you
(05:21):
weren't feeling maybe assuccessful.
So walk us through what that key
nick-jonsson_2_02-11-2025_ (05:26):
And.
the-sober-butterfly_2_02-10- (05:27):
in your life or that pivotal point
in time where you decided tochange courses or change
direction.
nick-jonsson_2_02-11-2025 (05:34):
Yeah.
So in that job then for a whileI was, you know, feeling more
and more lost and I thereforealso start to drink more.
I started to.
Exercise less, replaced myhealthy diet with fast food and
pizza, gained weight and so on.
And with that, then eventually Iresigned from that job and then
(05:55):
I jumped from job to job where Ifailed and I increased my
drinking and also went throughmy, my savings financial issues
came, and with that then I filedfor divorce at home.
Because I was just feeling lostin, on, in all ar areas of my
life.
So that led me eventually thento my rock bottom and from the
(06:16):
rock bottom though.
And eventually I, I'm glad tosay that I managed to find my
way back up, but it was abouttwo, three years of a downward
spiral before I reached thatpoint.
the-sober-butterfly_2_02-10 (06:28):
And so when you decided that you no
longer wanted to stay at thatbottom.
Can you give us, I like specificexamples because I feel like
everyone's rock bottom may lookdifferent.
Right?
So what happened?
(06:48):
Like, what was that day like?
Walk us through that momentwhere you just realized, okay,
something has to change.
nick-jonsson_2_02-11-2025 (06:55):
Yeah, I can remember it quite clearly.
It was 2018 and again, it was onmy birthday and I'd met the girl
who was my girlfriend, who todayis my wife.
And I remember telling her thatI would stop on the birthday and
I remember I.
Trying to stop alcohol that day.
And around lunchtime I gave up.
I just couldn't do it.
(07:15):
So I asked her to go and buysome beer for me, which she did
because she was supportive andunderstanding at that day for
me.
And then we said we make a planagain, and we did that.
So I drank those beers and thenext day we went back to a
hospital.
That were able to then help mewith a, a detox that day and
(07:35):
getting the medication I neededand the advice we needed.
And as I walked out of there Ihaven't had a drink since, since
then.
That's, no, almost seven yearsnow.
the-sober-butterfly_ (07:44):
beautiful.
So it sounds as though you werein sort of like a
pre-contemplation slashcontemplation phase for quite
some time, and I feel like somany people I.
Put that pressure on themselves,like they project their last day
of drinking or using to acertain day, and then that day
arrives and you're like,actually, I'm gonna need some
(08:04):
more help.
I'm gonna need some moresupport.
Because there's a willingnesspiece, which I think is crucial,
right?
Like you have to be willing andwanting to change.
But the action piece.
necessarily align with you justwanting to change.
So I, I feel like that's soimportant to note that you
needed a little bit more supportand help to get you there, so
(08:25):
thank you for sharing
nick-jonsson_2_02-11-2025_ (08:26):
Hmm.
the-sober-butterfly_2_02-1 (08:26):
when you went to that inpatient
facility at the hospital, whatcourse or what program did they
recommend to help you detox anddecide to never drink again,
essentially.
nick-jonsson_2_02-11-2025 (08:38):
Well, they wanted to inpatient me at
that stage, but I didn't wantto, and they, they were okay to
not inpatient me.
And I remember getting somemedication and injection.
I remember coming back andseeing the doctor 24 hours later
as well.
And then.
After that, what I did was toget more support and I went into
one of those 12 step programswhere I got the support, felt
(09:01):
again, understood.
I was around other people who'dgone through it before.
And the first two, three years Iattended plenty of those
meetings every week.
Yeah, sometimes almost everyday.
And through that, then I foundmyself and really coming back in
all areas of my life and in, ina better way and form than I
ever had been before.
the-sober-butterfly_2 (09:21):
Powerful.
So it sounds like the 12 stepprogram offered a sense of
support in community andconnection, and often we hear
that the opposite of any form ofaddiction is connection.
So one of the interesting parts,because I've.
Been, to meetings.
I did not follow a full 12 stepprogram, full disclosure.
(09:44):
But I'm well familiar with theliterature and the power of
connection and community, but apart that I think scares so many
people, making amends.
Did you find that, you know, asa part of going through the 12
step program, you make amendsand can you share what your
experience with this practicehad on?
(10:07):
Your life, and more importantly,I would say like the
relationship itself and withothers.
nick-jonsson_2_02-11-2025_ (10:12):
Yes, I do remember the, the step of
making amends and indeed it'svery scary.
But what I found was that the,you know, it was also a very
nice thing to do because whilethere was some big amends with
some family members and so on,which occurred, which was
wonderful to once you have donethem the feeling was amazing.
It was also.
(10:33):
A lot of the smaller amends thatI have done over the years,
including, you know, makingamends and apologize to a high
school friend who.
Perhaps you were part of a groupand you bullied that person, you
know, and for me that's 35 yearsago or something like that.
And actually reaching out toreconnect and you're setting up
(10:53):
a lunch with that person who Ihaven't seen for so many years.
And during the lunch by just,you know, saying, by the way, I
am sorry about, you know.
Being part of that group, wewere bullying you.
At that time I remembered thatthat was not the right thing to
do and I just wanted to knowthat I'm sorry about that.
And, and then saying that, youknow, is there anything I can
(11:13):
do?
And I remember that person then,you know, really getting
emotional.
In this case, the one Imentioned, I was a girl and, you
know, shedding a few tears and,you know, really connecting.
Thing and now being really closeand good friends again.
So is a, that is the power of amen's, right?
So why it's painful and, and, alot of anxiety around it.
(11:34):
It's a wonderful thing to do.
the-sober-butterfly_2_02-10 (11:36):
Did you make amends to your ex-wife?
I'm sorry to pry, but I'mcurious because it sounds like
the dissolution of your marriagewas connected to that rock
bottom or that dark periodbefore sobriety.
So did you ever reach back outto her?
nick-jonsson_2_02-1 (11:52):
Absolutely.
It was massive and major work tobe done there.
And it's still going ongoingwith living amend perhaps not
every day, but.
Every week, certainly.
And I also to my son, we have a,a shared son who today is 15
years of age.
So it was a lot of amens to bemade there as well to him
(12:12):
perhaps since he was little.
And now he's 15, but he's moreliving amens and also because
they live.
In a different part of theworld.
They live in Sweden, and at thattime I, I didn't negotiate for
any custody or anything else.
I just was sick when we, I filedfor the divorce and I realize
that she was in a bettersituation and better state to
(12:35):
take care of our son.
But now the relationship with myex wife have be on, have been
repaired to the point where.
She happily send him to come andvisit me in Southeast Asia once
a year.
That means that she has to signa letter that, you know, he is
allowed to travel overseas byhimself to see me.
And that's happened now for fouryears.
(12:55):
And that's without me asking.
It's, it is just happenednaturally.
So I think that's a testament ofthe trust that has been restored
in, in that relationship.
We probably have a betterrelationship now than when we
were married.
the-sober-butterfly_2 (13:08):
beautiful to hear.
And
nick-jonsson_2_02-11-2025_ (13:10):
Hmm,
the-sober-butterfly_2_02 (13:11):
amends to yourself?
nick-jonsson_2_02-11-2025_ (13:13):
yes.
It's also about forgiving myselffor what was there and realize
here that it was alcohol thatactually took the better from
me.
Once that was removed.
I am the real person, the moreauthentic myself who I wasn't
when alcohol was sort of runningthe show.
the-sober-butterfly_2_02-1 (13:31):
Yes, agreed.
And I, I also had to forgive andlet go of past grievances things
that I did to myself, becausehonestly, the person that was
probably the most impacted wasme.
Right.
And I think it's so easy tofocus on other people as we
(13:51):
should.
I.
We should reach out and weshould make sure that other
people understand that we aresorry for our wrongdoings.
But at the same time, it's like,don't forget that the person
standing in front of you andthat mirror is you.
And you said the word sick.
I think that is very, that'svery true.
Like.
We are sick when we are usingand we're when we're in that
(14:13):
state.
So it's like now we're healingand we're working and we're
trying.
And so it's like give yourselfgrace is the point I'm making
here.
thank you for sharing all ofthat.
That's really powerful, Nick.
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the-sober-butterfly_3_02-10-2 (16:03):
I would love to talk a little bit
about your book.
I know that you talk extensivelyand really I think the beauty of
your book is this idea of livingbeyond your wildest dreams.
What dreams did you have foryourself, Nick?
And what dreams, I guess, beforeI even ask you that question,
(16:23):
what dreams were you.
when you were using, because Ithink sometimes we have
something inside of us that isdriving us to drink.
And when we are in that state,we're letting go of things that
are important to us that maybewe think we're incapable of
reaching goals or dreams.
(16:45):
So I would love to know from youbefore you talk about, you know,
your dreams and your,inspiration for this book.
Like what were your dreams thatyou were sort of repressing.
Or stifling when you weredrinking?
nick-jonsson_3_02-11-2025 (16:58):
Yeah, so I had goals, I had visions,
and I had dreams also back then,but perhaps they were.
Very different from what I havenow in my life.
Perhaps they were the, thestandard, uh, you know, dreams
that most people have.
Uh, maybe it was about, youknow, having a big house, having
(17:20):
a car, those kind of normalthings.
Uh.
I didn't necessarily have dreamsto have wonderful connections
with people and deeprelationships and attempting
relationships and all of thosethings.
That was not on my list.
I just couldn't picture it, Ithink.
And, uh, I thought that, youknow, I'm, I was born introvert
(17:41):
and the, I should feel outside.
I should feel a bit odd.
I shouldn't perhaps feel that Ican belong everywhere.
That was sort of.
Something that I accepted and,therefore I couldn't perhaps
dream bigger and I couldn't havebigger reasons for myself.
the-sober-butterfly_3_02- (17:57):
Yeah, I connect with that.
The superficial things that Ithought I wanted that were so
important to me and were drivinga lot of my decision making and
also drinking, if I'm beinghonest, because I felt like I
wasn't living up to my potentialor optimizing my life for these
things that like are just thingslike they weren't, to your
point, authentic connections andlike building true community
(18:19):
like all of the things youmentioned that are beyond just.
The surface.
And so it sounds like yourpriorities shifted once you got
sober.
So now walk us through what thatwas like for you.
What dreams did you, or goals orvision did you find in sobriety
(18:39):
that you didn't recognize beforeor have realized before?
nick-jonsson_3_02-11-2025 (18:44):
Yeah, and, and first it is the
continuity because also drinkingalways shattered my dreams, even
if I was on the right path todo.
Something, then something wouldcome in the way and some trouble
would come in the way and itwould destroy everything and put
me back to zero.
Now it's the continuity and it'sthe resilience of keep going,
(19:04):
and if anything becomesdifficult, it's about seeking
help for that one.
And.
Uh, therefore, you know, sort ofyour network and your
connections becomes yourgreatest strength because you're
open and honest about theshortcomings.
Therefore, you know, the life Ihave now is really beyond my
wildest dreams.
Indeed, uh, I have lived andworked in Southeast Asia last 20
(19:27):
years.
But I have now repackaged mylife and put my community and
health and so on first.
So, uh, while I'm mainly workingin Singapore, Indonesia, and
Malaysia and so on, my backoffice and where I spend time,
I.
These days and where I'm todayis actually in, in Pke,
Thailand.
I have a triathlon communityhere.
(19:49):
And after our, our call today, Iwill actually go out cycling
with a community here.
So those are the things that Iwas dreaming about, but now I
can actually make them happen aswell.
So that is the major difference.
I'm sort of living what I, thatkind of life beyond my wireless
dreams.
I could picture it perhapsbefore, but I would have no idea
(20:10):
how to make it happen.
the-sober-butterfly_3_0 (20:13):
That's.
Profound.
I, first of all, I love puke.
I have spent two summers thereand I'm obsessed with the and
wellness community that's there.
I actually did Tiger Mo Thai,the, um, the camp.
Have you heard of it?
nick-jonsson_3_02-11-2025 (20:31):
Yeah.
Hmm.
the-sober-butterfly_3_02-10- (20:32):
Of course, I'm sure.
Anyway, how do you, balance yourroles because you have many
roles, as mentioned, you are acoach, you're a speaker, you're
an athlete, you're an author.
So how do you balance your rolesand also maintain your sobriety?
nick-jonsson_3_02-11-2025 (20:49):
Yeah, so it's about putting myself
first, and I do that by thenbeing in this healthy community
and there's a strong recoverycommunity here as well.
Uh, so, so that is the beautifulthing.
And uh, actually, I.
Where I live is in that areathat you're talking about where,
you know, most people are herefor the health aspect of things
and therefore there's a bigrecovery community here as well.
(21:11):
Uh, there's quite a few rehabsand those kind of places, in
this area as well.
So therefore, you know, I'msurrounded being by what I need
to have.
So it's, for me, it's, it'sconstant reminders, you know, to
putting, recovery and my healthfirst, and that is the
foundation for everything and.
After that, then uh, everythingelse becomes sort of easier, uh,
(21:33):
in that sense.
And I integrate, of course, mycoaching, speaking with my
writing.
I'm writing my second book aswell now, so it's all coming
together very nicely.
the-sober-butterfly_3_02-10 (21:45):
And can you share with us, any
strategies or habits that helpyou maintain your focus in
recovery and on your health andwellness?
nick-jonsson_3_02-11-2025 (21:55):
Yeah, it's, it's really the foundation
here by eating well, sleepingwell, and having a good
exercise.
I see myself when I'm exercisingas the CEO of my business, sort
of the strategist.
It's when I get the creativegood ideas.
Um, and therefore I think I oweto myself to do that every day
for a few hours, uh, uh, even ifit's light exercise.
(22:18):
And I see myself perhaps as themanager, as the administrator.
When I'm in front of thecomputer, so I need to remind
myself that's not where I growmy business or where I really
get the important things done.
So it's about closing down thecomputer and, and getting out
there and meeting people andexercising.
the-sober-butterfly_3_ (22:37):
Movement is crucial and I feel like that
has been really the baseline andthe foundation of maintaining
and sustaining sobriety for me,like my mental health is not
okay unless I know that I amconnected to my body and present
and taking what I need and alsothinking about what I ingest.
It's funny because I don't know.
(22:59):
well, actually, you did mentionwhen I was drinking, I still
thought of myself as a healthnut, which is very contradictory
and ironic, like I worked outall the time, but at the same
time I was ingesting poison.
I.
day almost.
So it's a very interestingduality that coexisted for me
where it was like I thought Iwas being healthy and
(23:20):
prioritizing my health, but inreality I was not.
So thank you for sharing that.
And I wanna kind of talk alittle bit about your work with
clients and helpingprofessionals who are in that
gray zone area that youmentioned in your book.
So what are some of the commonmisconceptions.
(23:40):
They have, and when I say they,I mean gray area drinkers.
nick-jonsson_3_02-11-2025_ (23:44):
Hmm.
the-sober-butterfly_3_02-1 (23:45):
What misconceptions do they have
about sobriety?
nick-jonsson_3_02-11-2025 (23:48):
Yeah, so while, uh, I was not the gray
zone drinker towards the end, Ihad really become a day drinker
and so on.
What I have realized in sobrietyis that there's quite a lot of
people and increasingly so whowant to explore sobriety.
We have a healthy waves.
We see that.
People are playing with thebecome vegan and vegetarians and
(24:11):
all kind of things because theywanna look after themselves.
We can just see the trend ofpeople choosing almond milk and
and so on over dairy.
So people are Yeah, yeah, metoo.
So, keep.
People are really more healthconscious these days and
therefore, uh, uh, like yousaid, how can you call yourself,
you know, being healthy and uh,and what's the point of
(24:34):
exercising every day if weinject poisoning ourselves?
And I'm.
Please to, uh, see that.
Finally, we start to accept andunderstand that alcohol is
poison.
However, in the, in thecountries where I live in, it's
still not the warning on, on thelabels that alcohol is a toxin.
It is on tobacco.
It's still not in most of thecountries where I live and spend
(24:55):
time on alcohol, but I'm prettysure it would be around the
corner.
But we are the, we are.
Groundbreakers here we are aheadof the politicians and
understand that this is poison,so maybe we should have a
conversation about it.
And that's the message for agray zone drinker, uh, not to
wait for that label there and tounderstand that, hey, it is
actually poison.
(25:15):
So let's, let's perhaps have aconversation and change our
relationship with alcohol.
Uh, and, and I'm getting moreand more calls from people and
those kind of people who arehealth conscious, who now
understand that this might notbe the best, uh, way moving
forward if I want to live ahealthy life.
the-sober-butterfly_3_02- (25:32):
Yeah.
I think too, going back to whatI mentioned before around being.
Misaligned with my goals and mydreams or what I thought were my
goals and dreams.
They were very superficial and Ithink a lot of my health
decision making was superficialas well.
I wanted to look good, but likeaesthetically looking good on
(25:53):
the outside does not necessarilyreflect what's going on
internally, and I think a lot ofpeople to have a bit more
discernment around.
Okay.
Do you wanna be healthy becauseyou just wanna look good or look
like a healthy person?
Or do you actually want to behealthy?
Because that's the part I thinksometimes we're still
disconnected on and it takessome time to come to that
(26:15):
realization that I.
Alcohol is never gonna aid, orsubstance is never gonna aid you
in becoming a healthy person.
Like you can fake it, but thereality is it will catch up to
you one day.
Even if it physically doesn'tcatch up to you, it's like
performance wise, right?
You're, you're not going goingto be your optimal self.
And so I came to thatrealization, obviously in
(26:37):
sobriety, but I think a lot ofpeople are, to your point,
having the conversation around,okay, awareness, it's access to
information and knowledge.
And once you have theinformation, it's like, well,
how much longer can I feignignorance?
How much longer can I pretendthat it's okay to just, you
know, numb and drink and party?
Probably not that much longer.
(26:58):
So I see a lot to say that.
I agree with everything thatyou've mentioned and I love that
you, in your coaching servicesand conversations with people
are also letting them know thatthere is.
A disconnect if you are nottaking care of yourself in all
capacities and questioning therole that alcohol plays in your
true fitness or wellness goals.
(27:21):
so I'm also curious to learnfrom you, Nick, how do you
encourage people to reevaluatetheir relationship with alcohol
without.
Labeling because I think it canbe very jarring and overwhelming
to tell someone that maybe theyhave a problem with alcohol.
So how do you have thoseconversations without that
stigma or that judgment?
nick-jonsson_3_02-11-2025 (27:42):
Well, it's easier to have these
conversations these days becausewe have so many devices that,
uh, we can track.
We have watches and rings and soon where, actually, the alcohol
consumption typically is quiteblack and white there.
We didn't have that luxury 10years ago, so I was still doing
triathlons 10 years ago, and Ican remember.
(28:02):
Drinking alcohol pretty close tofull distance Ironman race.
And I remember cramping in theswim and almost drowning.
So that was an indicator, thatwas an indicator for me that,
you know, this might not be agood thing to drink and do, do
this kind of sports.
Right.
Uh, but my point being thatthese days then that the
coaching clients that I have, ifthey start to take, you know,
(28:25):
one month.
Uh, as the first step, as a goalto be sober.
Then if they wear the devices,you will start to see the rest
heart rate coming down the HRVvalue, uh, which is a reflection
on your health to reallystabilize and come down.
And you really start to see alsothat you're sleeping better.
And overall, these devices willjust tell you that you know,
(28:47):
your health is absolutelyfantastic.
So if someone is healthconscious, then all you can do
is to, to work with them over amonth, and then you compare.
One month of your data when youwere still drinking and one
month in sobriety, then there'sno denial anymore.
So that's uh, some of thebenefits that you can see in
black and white these days.
the-sober-butterfly_3_02-10-2 (29:08):
I love the framing of that too,
because it depersonalizes it forsomeone.
It's not necessarily me tellingyou that you have a problem.
It's like, here are the data,here are the data points.
You look at it, you see, andtreating it like a social
experiment is something thatcomes up a lot for me, where
it's like.
Instead of overwhelming peoplewith this idea that you should
never drink again, it's liketake a break if you can, and to
(29:30):
your point, compare, look at thedata, track it and see how you
feel.
And also look at your differenthealth indicators and how
they've changed over the courseof X amount of time.
So I, I like that because Ithink it shows people that.
You can't argue with facts.
It's like staring at you in yourface.
What is it like being an IronMan athlete?
(29:54):
I would love to hear, becausequite literally you're in the
top 2% the world and I ran myfirst marathon sober.
I.
realized a dream that I neverthought would be possible, which
was to run the New York CityMarathon back in 2023.
And that was incredible for mebecause the pandemic I started
(30:15):
to run.
That's when I first, you know,I.
my abilities as a runner and Iwould force myself to get out
there because there was nothingelse for me to do.
But I would work my workoutsaround being hungover.
I would work my workouts aroundpunishing myself because I felt
ashamed of how much I drank.
(30:36):
I would work out, I would workor plan my workouts around.
Determining, know, I have towork out first thing in the
morning or run first thing inthe morning because I know
tonight I'm gonna drink.
So I, it was just the mentalgymnastics of trying to fit
running into my life when inreality I was not really
optimizing my performance as arunner until I got sober.
(30:58):
And then I was actually like, Ilove this.
I'm good at this.
I'm not punishing myself.
I can actually be a runner nowand do something hard like
running a marathon.
So walk us through what it'slike to be.
In this high class or highcaliber of athletes and what the
mental preparation and physicalpreparation looks like and how
it shifted.
Because you mentioned that youwere doing triathlons many years
(31:19):
ago.
nick-jonsson_3_02-11-2025_ (31:19):
Hmm.
the-sober-butterfly_3_02-1 (31:20):
Walk us through like that comparison,
because I think that's reallyimportant for people to hear and
understand yes, you can dosomething just because you're.
Drinking, but that doesn't meanit's gonna be your best
performance.
Do you understand what I'mgetting at?
I would love to hear a littlebit about what your life looked
like before and after gettingsober in regards to the
competitions like this.
nick-jonsson_3_02-11-2025 (31:39):
Yeah, sure.
And, and actually, so before Istopped drinking, I was also
doing the sport and um, I wastrying my best, you know, to
control my drinking balance, thedrinking, limited drinking, and
then doing those kind of sportswas sort of forcing myself to
not drink too much.
I would.
(32:00):
Typically just drink three ormaximum five beers on a, on a
weekday evening because I knewthat I would need to get up next
morning and I didn't wanna dothat with a hangover.
So it worked quite well for sometime.
However, then I thought, youknow, on Sundays and when the
training weeks sort of was over,that I deserved to have more
and.
(32:20):
Then sometimes it went overboardand I was drinking too much.
And it was a few times where Ipulled out a races, you know,
beforehand because I wasn't inthe form that I should have
been.
And I might have blamed stressand work.
But you know, looking back atit, it was clearly that it was
alcohol that was in the way thatlet me down.
So once then in sobriety.
(32:42):
All those issues are gone.
You know, there's, there's nolonger that issue and that sort
of inner fight with yourselfabout, doing that and that.
The controlling was not niceeither for anyone who likes
drinking, you know what it'slike if you are in the bar and
you've had three beers andeveryone else is staying and you
are leaving, that feeling is notnice.
So to not have that anymore is,is a true blessing, and my
(33:06):
performance have just increaseda lot as well, and I learn what
I learned also in.
My recovery was to ask for help.
And I do that with everything inmy life these days.
I do it when it comes to writingbook.
I ask people who've written abook to help me.
So I thought, why don't I do thesame with triathlons?
So I reached out also then tothe best swim coaches I could
(33:28):
find.
Running coaches, cyclingcoaches.
I have a trial long coach now.
Um, someone who's trainingnormally.
Professional athlete who, coachme.
Uh, and that is the secret thento climbing up, uh, so high in
the ranking is because I havegood support and, and that makes
all the difference.
the-sober-butterfly_3_02-1 (33:49):
That makes a huge difference at what
point in time did you get acoach and would you recommend
that everyone have some form ofhelp or coach in their life as
well?
I.
nick-jonsson_3_02-11-2025 (34:00):
Yeah, so I got a coach about four
years ago now and that made ahuge difference.
And I think no matter what sportwe are interested in, it's about
doubling down and I think almostbecome a bit obsessed with our
hobbies and and so on.
And then, you know, I also saywe need to belong to a tribe and
you know, we feel that we belongthere.
(34:22):
And then having a coach,typically they have that kind of
community as well.
So not only do I get a coach, Ialso get a, a triathlon
community.
And so everyone, depending ontheir hobbies and likes, they
can look at perhaps doublingdown on that.
And having a coach is a greatstart for that.
the-sober-butterfly_3_02-1 (34:40):
Yes.
I feel like in life.
You could benefit from a coach.
It's not just necessarilyconnected to a sport, but if you
think about it, life as ananalogy is a game or it's a
support, right?
It's not just about you.
It's about you in connection toother people.
Whether it's people that you'reracing against or racing with,
(35:02):
or that are on your team oragainst you.
Just this idea that everythingis and it's nice to your point,
to have someone in your corneradvising you.
Also connecting you to otherpeople.
It sounds so, I, I love that somuch.
Thank you for sharing that, Nick
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the-sober-butterfly_3_0 (37:04):
winding down here if someone listening
at home is struggling, maybethey feel stuck or maybe they
feel sick or scared to take thatfirst step toward sobriety or
thinking about the role alcoholis playing in their life.
What words of encouragement canyou offer for anyone who is
feeling stuck or scared?
nick-jonsson_3_02-11-2025 (37:25):
Yeah, I don't be scared of asking for
help, and I mean, there's somany different support systems
these days.
We discussed quite a few of themtoday.
On the call is everything fromthe 12.
Step programs, and it doesn'tmatter what addiction we are
falling into, there will beother people who've gone through
it before who are there to helpand give back.
There's also hotlines, there'shelplines full of volunteers and
(37:46):
a lot of them is free who canhelp.
But then of course we have thewonderful world of coaching
recovery for people who perhapswant to have a one-on-one
private conversation who want toget some support.
And some of the clients thatI've had, they come to me to
have a conversation and.
Then they agreed to test for amonth, and a few of those
(38:06):
clients now are, are threemonths sober, and some of them
are saying that they're neverlooking back and they wanna
remain in sobriety.
So it's about taking that firststep and, and just have perhaps
a conversation, with a sobercoach near you.
the-sober-butterfly_3_02-10-2 (38:20):
I love that.
Thank you.
that you mentioned that you areworking on a next book so what
does sort of the next chapterlook like for you, Nick, as you
continue inspiring other peoplethrough your journey?
nick-jonsson_3_02-11-2025 (38:34):
It's, uh, really to share what I've
learned my seven years insobriety, uh, with others and
giving this back in.
I created a five step formulafor my next book, which is
basically some of the best stepsthat I learned in the 12 step
recovery programs, but reallydoubling down then on community
(38:56):
and help and health and tying itall together.
So.
It's supposed to be a book foranyone who, who want to explore
sobriety and a bit of a hehealthier living.
the-sober-butterfly_4_02 (39:09):
That's incredible.
I think hearing people's storiesare truly life-changing and
profound and can really helpsomeone connect so that they
don't feel so alone.
I.
But I also think havingpractical measures and tools and
what you mentioned in the secondbook, it sounds like you've
created a framework.
(39:30):
I think that is amazing becauseI think sometimes we just need a
template.
Like we just need to know like,what steps do I need to take?
Or what can I do to get to thenext place?
And I, I think so often we canconvince ourselves that, oh, I
don't know what to do, so I'mnot gonna do anything about it.
(39:50):
So it's nice that you have.
Thought about this from a, aplace of obviously drawing from
your own experiences, but alsothen repurposing that into
something that someone else canpotentially follow or use to
help them.
And I, I don't think there's aone size fits all approach, and
I'm not suggesting that youthink that either.
But it's nice to have options,you know, it's nice to hear and
(40:12):
follow and be able to.
Find other resources outside ofwhat's been already presented.
So I really appreciate that andI'm really looking forward to
reading your book, your secondbook.
When does that come out, Nick?
nick-jonsson_4_02-11-2025_0 (40:25):
I'm writing it now and I hope to
have it done sort of aroundOctober this year.
the-sober-butterfly_4_02- (40:30):
Well, will you let us know when it's
ready?
I would be honored to read yourbook, your second book, and I
wanna thank you so much forcoming on the show.
If anyone wants to connect withyou, Nick, what's the best way
to do so?
nick-jonsson_4_02-11-2025_0 (40:43):
I'm pretty active on LinkedIn, so
they can look up Nick Johnson onLinkedIn or if anyone is
interested in my first book,executive Loneliness.
It's on Amazon and also onAudible.
the-sober-butterfly_4_02-10-2 (40:55):
I love Audible Audible's, actually
a sponsor of the show, so.
Cute audible ad.
Nadine Mulvina (41:00):
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the-sober-butterfly_4_02-10-2 (42:10):
I think the executive loneliness
piece will resonate with a lotof people just because whether
you work in say, corporate ornot, we've all felt lonely at
times.
And loneliness can drive a lotof people to make decisions that
maybe they wouldn't have if theyfelt connected or or if they
felt like they had community.
So I appreciate.
All that you've done and allthat you've shared today, I've
(42:31):
learned so much about you andjust even reflecting it back to
my own experiences in sobriety.
So thank you Nick for coming onthe show and I look forward to
getting that second book.
And also I will plug everythingin the show notes for folks at
home.
Thank you, Nick.
nick-jonsson_4_02-11-2025 (42:47):
Thank you, Nadine.
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