Getting Sober in Your Twenties with Therapist Kendall B. | Anxiety, Alcohol & Learning to Heal - The Sober Butterfly Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Nadine Mulvina (00:01):
Hello.
Hello, beautiful butterflies andwelcome back to The Sober
Butterfly.
I'm your host, Nadine Mulvina,and today we are joined with an
incredible guest.
We have Kendall Bierman here.
Kendall is a licensed therapistand mental health counselor who
specializes in helping peoplenavigate their relationship with
substances.

(00:21):
She's also sober herself and hasan incredible story of going
from struggling in college tobecoming the therapist she once
needed.
I'm so excited to have you here,Kendall.
Welcome to The Sober Butterfly.
How are you today?

Kendall Bierman (00:36):
I am so good.
Thank you so much for having me.
Nadine, what an introduction.
I love that from being thetherapist that I, that I needed.

I actually got sober in therapy.
Like I truly owe my life to mytherapist.
If it wasn't for her, her gentletouch, first and foremost,
because I think we can get intoit, but I'm sure as a therapist,
you know that each client isdifferent.
And so she got to know me beforeshe started to question or have
me question my relationship withalcohol.

(01:05):
So it wasn't like out the gates,she was like.
I think you need to quitdrinking.
I needed that low touchapproach.
So, yeah, I just truly lovetherapy.
I'm still in therapy and like Isaid, owe my life to my
therapist.
So you're doing amazing workthat is so needed.
So thank you for being atherapist and I can't wait to
hear your story.
So I wanna back up., what ledyou to drinking in the first

(01:28):
place, and how did you realizethat you needed to reframe or
quit drinking altogether?
I.

Yeah, so that's a great question.
Especially like what led to thedrinking, because I think
oftentimes drinking is a symptomof something greater that's
happening.
And for me, what was underneaththe drinking was a lot of
anxiety.
Like a lot, a lot, andinsecurity, low self-esteem.
I had anxiety, I think for aslong as I can remember.

(01:56):
Like I remember being six yearsold, I was convinced I'd be
kidnapped, like out my bedroomwindow.
So, uh, that changed as I gotolder to more like social
anxiety and more kind ofgeneralized and I.
In high school I was a veryanxious person.
I was a very black and whitethinker of like giving
everything your all or don'tbother at all.

(02:18):
And that worked for me for atime until I was dropped off at
college and I was justcompletely in over my head.
I was really emotionally, Ithink immature for my age and I
just wasn't ready.
I couldn't give it my allanymore because my anxiety was
so crippling that then I startednot showing up to classes, not

(02:41):
doing the things I needed to do.
And the way I began to cope withthat was through drinking.
I think, you know, enteringcollege as a freshman, I felt,
well, I'm gonna create myself.
I'm gonna be this cool partygirl.
But I had so much anxiety, Icouldn't do that as like a
non-drinking person.
So I really relied on alcohol tomake friends, to go out to
party, to be this person thatfrankly, I'm, I'm just like not

(03:05):
I think I wasn't okay with who Iwas and I didn't know, what I
was without alcohol or how Icould fit in.
And so while it started offpretty fun going out to parties
and drinking, it started to leadto, okay, well now I'm going to
lunch with somebody new and I'mfeeling anxious, so I'm gonna
have a shot or two before I goto this lunch.

(03:27):
And that escalated to themalmost daily drinking and.
Being hung over every day, notgoing to classes not doing the
things that I used to reallyhave a lot of interest in
because alcohol became my wholelife.
I ended up taking a medicalleave from the first school that
I went to because I wasn'tshowing up to classes and all I

(03:51):
was doing was.
For the most part, drinkingduring the day by myself until
it was nighttime and it wasacceptable to drink.
And I'd go out with friends andparty.
And I had to leave school.
I went to therapy.
I did IOP, intensive outpatient,I transferred.
And I thought I could try andmoderate and I really did try
hard to do that.

(04:12):
And it would work for like acouple months at a time and then
lead back to where it was.
And so my college experience wasreally challenging for me.
I really wanted to be a normaldrinker.
I wanted to be able to go toparties and be a part of Greek
life and have that like.
I don't know how you picture itin the movies.
I guess how you picture thatcollege experience to be like

(04:33):
the best four years of yourlife.
And for me it was riddled withlike, I'm trying to drink it
with everyone else, but I can't.
And now I'm missing classes andnow I'm failing classes and I
have really low self-esteembecause I don't understand why I
can't do it.
And it really took a toll on me.
But during that time I did go totherapy.

(04:56):
I had a therapist who waswilling to meet me where I was
at because I wasn't ready togive up alcohol yet when I was
in college, I knew it was aproblem, but I just wasn't
there.
And so I had a therapist whoshowed me unconditional support
and guidance.
And when I did somehow manage tofinish college that.

(05:16):
Is when I was like, okay, I'mready to, to make, make the
change.
I'm ready to stop drinking.
And I ended up going toinpatient rehab.
And I came out and went tointensive outpatient therapy
again, I.
Lived in sober living.
I did all the things I needed todo to really change my life.
And when I was in college, itfelt like impossible to do that

(05:36):
in a really big drinking,environment.
And so what brought me to wannabe a therapist, I did major in
psychology in college because Iwas struggling so much.
I had so much anxiety.
I was like, this makes sense tome.
It, I just got it.
So chose the one major that wasas close to like majoring in
Kendall as I could.

(05:58):
So,

that.

So Yeah, that's what I chose.
And then when I did get soberwas in rehab and I, I told my
parents I wanted to be atherapist.
They were like, you kinda like,you need to get sober and get
your life together.
I was like, I will, and then I'mgonna be a therapist,

Yeah,

when I was struggling in college, I think
there's the stereotype of whatan alcoholic looks like.

absolutely.

pictured someone a lot older, probably a
man,

Mm-hmm.

not like a young like a 19-year-old person
who's in college or, you know,whatever, whatever.
didn't fit that stereotype in mymind,

Mm-hmm.

and it made it really hard then to picture what
a life would look like withoutalcohol because I didn't know
anyone.
Who I felt was similar to methat lived a life without
alcohol and it was worth living.
and so I felt I got sober, likeI'm fairly young.
I know what it's like.

(06:55):
And so I kind of wanted to bethat support for other people
who can look at someone and belike, wow, okay.
Not only did this person reallystruggle, but they're also like
sitting here as a therapist nowand they

Yeah.

what I'm going through.
I wanted to be able to like giveback in that way.

Wow, that's so powerful.
I relate to so much of what youshared going back to college.
It's interesting when you saidlike you wanted to reinvent
yourself.
I too did the same thing.
I literally, Kendall changed myname for like the first semester
of college.
I was like, everyone called meLondon because I was born in
London, but like, I don't have aBritish accent, I was literally

(07:34):
t.
Taking on this persona, andsimilar to what you mentioned,
right?
I also, it's funny because evenlike the sober butterfly, it's a
playoff of me being called thesocial butterfly amongst my
friends.
Starting in college, like I wasalways the girl who was, you
know, over here.
I had friends in this friendgroup, you know, when I was
blackout drunk or partying, Iwould be in everyone's face

(07:57):
yapping it up.
That wasn't actually true to whoI was growing up.
Prior to those moments, like Iwas actually a very shy.
Quiet person with a veryreserved disposition, like
painfully shy as a kid.
And of course we outgrow thesethings, but I used alcohol in a
way that was, you know, not onlyjust a social lubricant, but

(08:19):
like with courage, like to doall the things and really lean
into this identity, this newidentity.
Like you mentioned, like beingthe party girl.
I think the one difference.
The, I'm picking up for me atleast, is that I, I was pretty
successful and I shouldn't havebeen, but I was really
successful leaning into thispersona and because my life, it

(08:41):
was falling apart in differentareas, but I was able to keep
some semblance of like controlor.
Fake or you know, perceivedcontrol.
Like my grades were okay.
I was a student senator, so Iactually think had my grades
suffered or had these other likered flags come to the surface, I
would've quit drinking a lotsooner, which could have been.

(09:03):
A benefit to my life ordefinitely would've been a
benefit because I actuallydidn't get sober until 30.
So I love everything that youmentioned because it sounds like
you got sober in your twentiesand I think so many people going
back to your point around likethis stereotype of this
archetype of what a problemdrinker looks like, yeah.
I had very concrete images in mymind.

(09:25):
Brown paper bag,

Yeah.

older guy, he lost his wife and kids like, you
know, all of these.
False narratives that can keepsomeone stuck and sick because
you are like deluding yourselfinto believing like, oh, well I
don't resonate or identify withthat.
So of course I don't have aproblem.
But there were moments, Kendall,like I knew there was a problem.

(09:49):
I just wasn't ready to like dealwith it.
So thank you for sharing all ofthat.
I think just so relatable inmany, many ways and it's.
These conversations that help mereflect and unearth some of
those past struggles that Idealt with.
And I love when you alsomentioned that it's a symptom,
like when you drink, it's asymptom of something else.

(10:11):
And so you mentioned anxietyspecifically.
So after you know yourexperience in college, what age,
by the way, Kendall, did you getsober?

23.

23.
That is young.
And I, I'm imagining, becauseyou mentioned that you felt like
you were afflicted with anxiety,like was it anxiety inducing for
you to get sober officially at23 and imagine what life could
look like in your early twentiessober?

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

had no clue what it was going to look like.
I was so lost.
but I was also lost with likethe drinking as well.
Like

Hmm.

I finished college, it felt like.
Somehow I got through collegeand now I'm supposed to like the
rest of my life and I can'tdrink.
That's been made clear, but Ialso was like, how do I live a
life without that?
Especially at

Hmm.

I'm like, what am I gonna do with my time?

Yeah.

so there was a lot of anxiety about giving up.
I think that's why I drank.
You know, I continued drinkingthroughout college because it
feels like you're giving up areally huge part of your life.
At least it did.
It did for me.
It felt like I'm giving up thefun, I'm giving up the
connection.
I was giving up a lot of badstuff too, but I wasn't sure
what was going to replace it andhow it was going to be better,

(11:31):
other

Right.

that I'm not hungover and drunk all the time.
So there was a lot of anxietywhich is why I did inpatient and
did a lot of therapy because.
I kind of needed to like reframethe way I looked at it and
figure out also how to enjoylife without it and how to
manage my anxiety withoutalcohol, which was huge because

(11:53):
a lot of us.
Drink even if you don't have adrinking problem, like maybe you
drink'cause you had a bad day oryou had a great day or whatever,
but you're using it to kind ofmanage your emotions a bit how
do you manage your emotionswithout substances?
That was really hard and that'sreally what I learned a lot from
in therapy.
How to deal with my anxiety, howto kind of accept it as it comes

(12:15):
and not hide and run from it,which was what I used alcohol
for.

I'm, I'm getting chills quite literally because
yes, we, we deflect, weself-medicate to soothe or
protect ourselves or whateverperceived notion of protection
that looks like at that point intime when you're drinking
because you feel anxious, I.
Or when you're drinking becauseyou want to connect with other
people, like you are not doingit intentionally to like cause

(12:42):
harm.
Like you really believe thatthis is helping.
And so that distortion makes ithard for people to necessarily
understand like, maybe I don'tneed to turn to substances.
And I just think a lot of peopledrink as mentioned to
self-medicate.
I am wondering, what are somehealthier ways to manage anxiety
or manage other afflictionswithout alcohol?

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What are some healthier optionsthat you learned through your
therapy experience and like evennow in your expertise as a

(14:52):
therapist?

So one of the things I had to learn.
Which I think a lot of peopledon't want to hear learning to
be uncomfortable.
And that means sitting in it.

Yeah.

in in the S word.

Mm.

I think a lot of people who turn to substances
are very pain averse.
As soon as we experience anegative feeling or negative
physical or emotional feeling,we turn to the substance.
Ooh, I don't wanna feel thatway.
part of learning to stop usingsubstances is sitting with it
and realizing that it's notgonna kill you.

(15:30):
I can sit with my anxiety andrealize this isn't going to last
forever.
It's going to fade.
Like, in fact, what I teach alot of my clients, and I learned
it early on in therapy, reallystrong.
Physical reactions and emotions,they peak after about 90 seconds
after.
Right?
So after that, they start tofade.
So if we can ride it out, if wecan sit in that emotion for 90

(15:52):
seconds, which we can do mostthings for 90 seconds, it will
start to fade.
It will start to go away.
And once you kind of arelearning, wow, I can sit in that
feeling and I'm okay, and it'sstarting to fade, we build
confidence in that and werealize we can get through it.
It's like an exposure.
Being exposed to your emotions.
in addition to that,'cause wedon't wanna just sit in the pain

(16:13):
all the time.
We also have to learn how tohave an enjoyable life, which
another way of like dealing withthe negatives is having a
community, having people thatyou can turn to because to do
anything alone so, so hard.

I know.

Right.
Like you wanna be with peoplewho understand what you're going
through or can at least be agood listener.
For

Yeah.

was like aa in the very beginning.
I'm not, I don't really goanymore.
That's just like my own journey.
I think it helps a ton of peopleand I loved it from when I was
first starting.

Mm-hmm.

but now I have like community in, in other
pockets of my life.
And I also have, like, I havesome sober friends.
I have other friends who aren'tthat big a drinkers, and I have
some friends that.
Do drink, but having community,having people that you can go to
and speak to about how you'refeeling is really important.

Yeah, I think that plus representation
matters, which is why, onceagain, these conversations are
so important.
And I especially like to elevatethe voices of women, younger
women.
Because when I got sober at 30,I mean, I wasn't like a spring
chicken, but I didn't knowKendall, anyone in my life that
was sober.
I had prior to that one soberroommate in my earlier twenties

(17:26):
when I first moved to New York,who.
Was sober.
I don't even know if I wouldcall her sober, because she
never had a problem withdrinking.
She just never drank.
And she, I hate to admit this,but I've said it before on the
podcast, like, she was not fun,Kendall.
She was not fun.
So like, imagine that's my only,like, that like that's my only
point data point to likereference when I'm like

(17:48):
thinking,

about this,

yeah.

I can relate to the least is a person who just
like doesn't like drinking andthey just don't do it.
I'm like, no, I loved drinking.
That was my problem.

Yeah.
I thank you for saying that.
That is brilliant because yeah,you're right.
Like I, I can connect withsomeone in an active addiction
more than someone that's like,yeah, I just, I never had a
taste for.

it.
I'm like, how does that

Right.
I'm like, Ugh, why is my skincrawling?
I'm good for you.
Good for you.
You get a gold star.
But no, it, it's true like, so,like to your point in the
connection piece, I think is sovaluable because if you don't
have those positiverepresentations or if you don't
have those.
Positive relationships withpeople who kind of understand
what it's like to struggle

Yeah,

something like having, you know, any form of
codependency or addiction.
It can be really.
Isolating to your point, and youknow, we know the man shared the
opposite of addiction isconnection or the opposite.
Yeah.
Of addiction is connection,right?
So like if you don't feel likeyou're connected to anyone, it's
really easy to kind of digressor maybe go back to those

(18:56):
unhealthier coping mechanismslike drinking.
And going back to even the 92nd.
Thing that you mentioned aboutfeelings are fleeting
essentially and they don't lastforever.
That is so true.
And I actually have talked aboutthe 92nd principle on this.
I dunno if it's a principle, butthere's studies that have been

(19:18):
conducted in psychology aroundthis idea that quite literally a
feeling will be released after90 seconds.
But what's interesting aboutthat, and what I want to talk to
you about too, is.
We trigger or we reactivate theuncomfortable feeling because we
are so worked up about notfeeling uncomfortable.

(19:41):
Like, does that make sense?

Yeah,

So it's like

of a

it can last longer.
'cause you're just like, I, Idon't wanna, I don't wanna feel
this way.
So like, you just, you start toget anxious.
Yeah.
You're fighting it.
Exactly.

like, I, I use this metaphor, you've probably
heard it a million times, butit's like if you're, if you ever
swam in the ocean and you gotpulled down under by a wave, I
don't know

Mm-hmm.

experienced that, but what I always learned,
when you try to fight it andyou're like, oh my God, I gotta
get this, gotta get to thesurface, you're all of a sudden
you're out of breath and you'relike gasping for air when you
get there.
But if you get pulled under andyou're like, I'm just gonna be a
ragdoll, I'm just gonna let thewave take me and I'm gonna pop
back up.
It's so much easier.
All of a sudden

Yeah.

You're not outta breath, you're not freaked
out.
Emotions are the same.
When we try to fight them, wegive them more power,

Mm.

them work its way through our body, it it,
it's like a wave.
It just washes over you.

It just washes over you.
I love that.
So real, like you're exhaustingyourself

Yeah.

like just release.

be anxious.
Let yourself be sad.
We all feel that way.
We go into this judgmental zoneas well.
It's like we're humans.
We have emotions, and they willpass.

I love that.

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So another thing you mentioned Kendall was going
to AA or recovery spaces like AApretty early in your sober
journey.
I too can resonate with that.
My therapist actuallyrecommended that I.
Start going to meetings and sheactually never use the term
alcoholic with me.
She was just like, I think itwould help you.
So I'm wondering from you, asyou know, now that you're

(22:30):
wearing your therapist hat, doyou recommend that your clients
or your patients also who may bestruggling with substances, do
you recommend that they attendrecovery meetings such as AA or
NA, in conjunction with therapy?
Or do you see them as separateentities?

I do recommend it.
I think, I mean, everyone'sdifferent.
Not everyone feels either likecomfortable going or there, it's
just not for them.
And that's, there are otherdifferent groups out there to
kind of make a sober community.

Mm-hmm.

but like I.
As a therapist, I'm only meetingwith my clients for 45 minutes
once a week

Right.

And so as much as I'm trying my best to be
helpful to them, what are theysupposed to do with the whole
rest of their week if they'retrying to not drink?
You know, so like, I wanna beyour community and I wanna be
your friend, but I also can't bethat.
And so with that being said,that's why I do think AA and and
other like 12 step groups arereally helpful.

(23:31):
Because all of a sudden you'regonna find you have a lot of
time to fill now

Yeah.

not drinking or using substances.
So not only do you have a lot oftime to fill, but.
I think it's important to have acommunity of people that are
kind of like-minded and maybeunderstand what you're going
through.
And so I think doing that inconjunction with therapy is
really helpful because we canwork on the skills, we can
process things that have maybegone on and that you're not

(23:56):
really gonna do at an AAmeeting.

Right.

but then I'm also lacking like that community
aspect and so my clients can goand get that outside of the
therapy room.

Yeah, I think that's really wise.
and I was telling you before,like I, I'm at a place where I'm
just sort of like, I love mytherapist, truly, she.
Will always be in my lifewhether she wants to or not.
But in terms of like thatprofessional client therapist
relationship, I'm feeling a bitstagnant and so I just don't

(24:28):
know.
I like, I guess my question foryou is, do you think that a
person needs therapy for therest of their life, or is there
any such thing as like beinghealed or do we always need
therapy?

I mean, when I describe, like when I say I'm in
recovery, the reason I say I'min recovery, not I'm recovered
because it's a lifelong that Ihave to work at

Right.

to stay in recovery.
And the same goes for any typeof mental illness.
Like if I see a client who hasanxiety, they don't, one day
it's like, oh, you're cured.
You don't have any

Yeah.
Yeah.

like that'd be great, but more so you learn how
to deal with it.
You learn how to manage it andit becomes a lot less of an
issue in your life, but

Yeah.

maintenance.
And so for a lot of people, it'snot that maybe you need to be in
therapy for the rest of yourlife, but that is a space where
they can get their 45 minutes oflike their maintenance, of
keeping self-awareness, ofmaking sure they're using the
skills to help them.
And if something does go wrongin their life, because.
That's a part of life, right?

(25:35):
We have hardships.
They ha

Mm-hmm.

have an established relationship with
their therapist and that'sreally helpful.
Then when like something goeswrong and you kind of need to
talk through it with yourtherapist.
I do also think like treatmentfatigue is real, and sometimes
someone will hit a point wherethe therapy starts to feel like
a chore, and you start to feellike, right, like, all right, I

(25:57):
feel good.
I don't really know why I'mcoming here and spending this
money anymore.
resentment can build and that'snot helpful to anybody.
And

Yeah.

happening, I think a break can be just what
you need or maybe a differenttype of therapy if that's what
you want.
But it's really up to personalpreference.
Like I see my therapist and I'malmost seven years sober, and
while I think I could live lifewithout her at least, well, I
know I could live life withouther.
I really like seeing her eachweek or

Yeah.
Yeah.

week when I do see her, because she helps me
stay aware.
I like to say like.
Especially the new clients insobriety, a relapse happens
before the actual relapse,right?
so I can become more aware ofwhen my mood is starting to dip,
when things are starting tomaybe not go as well.
My, my therapist could say, Hey,you're doing that thing that you

(26:49):
do, and That's, not really agreat sign.
I'm like, oh, you're right.
so yeah, it

That's,

to person.

that is powerful, truly because to your
point, We don't just relapse, wedon't just wake up one day and
hit the bottle.
Like there, there are signs,there are symptoms, there are
red flags that start popping up.
We are very good at trickingourselves.
Like we're, our brains are supersmart.
Like we're very good at dilutingourselves with the thinking that
we have it under control.

(27:17):
I think for me personally, Isometimes find myself
romanticizing.
My former drinking life, likethe lifestyle, the, the good
parts.
Obviously that's the ous, that'sthe romanticizing of it, right?
Not the bad parts.
And so I have to be mindful ofthat.
Do I ever want to drink again?
No.
Do I think I actually will goand drink?

(27:37):
Hopefully not.
But like that's the part that Ineed to be honest with myself
about.
Like I know who I am and I knowwhat I'm capable of.
And I, I think the therapy toyour point, kind of keeps you
grounded and it helps you.
I.
Hold you accountable.
And it's a sounding board.
It's a third party that someonethat you trust who's able to
give you that feedback thatmaybe you, yourself may

(27:58):
recognize or may not recognize.
But either way, like it's,sometimes we can, we can lead
ourselves astray.
Like we can be our worst ally.

It's hard.
It's, it's hard to stay likeself-aware at all times

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

to do that means you have to be willing to
face things that you might notbe willing to face.
And that's hard to do.
And so a therapist can be like,Ooh, you're avoiding this, this
thing.
Or, you know, you're not awarethat this actual, this thing is
going on in the background.
And so you don't wake up one dayand just turn to the bottle

Yeah.

or relapse, whether it's like with food or
another issue.

Oh yeah.
I think that's another thing forme.
Like, the pendulum shifts intoanother area, so

Yeah,

I overwork or over exercise or overeat, and
it's just like those are signsyou overwork.

Yep.

Yeah, yeah.
Workaholic over here.
So those parts I think arehelpful to recognize as well
because sometimes they can shiftinto other areas and so we need
to be mindful of that.
And to your point, yeah, it'sreally hard to be self-aware and
it's easier for a another personfrom the outside to pick up on
those things.
Especially a trained licensedtherapist who has been working

(29:08):
with sub person for years.
I love that.

to pick up on

Right.
Right.
And be vigilant.
I love that so much.
You mentioned this term, like, Idon't wanna say it's necessarily
in connection to drinking.
So I wanna, I guess, make sureI'm clear.
Do you think that alcoholism oralcohol use spectrum is, is a
spectrum?
Do you think it's a mentaldisorder?

Wow, that's a loaded question.

I don't mean to be like, I literally, when you
said that I was, my ears peakedup because I'm like, yeah, is it
a mental health condition?
Like, like I have a DHD, like,you know, like, that's a
disorder.
Is it?
Is it a disorder?
Is it considered a mental healthissue?

technically yes, it is in the Diagnostic and
Statistical manual.
It is listed as alcohol usedisorder, and

Yeah.

specifiers of whether it's severe, if you're
in remission or uncomplicated.
There's all these differentterminologies for how you might
diagnose someone.

Mm-hmm.

there are a lot of different models.
There's the disease model,there's the genetic model, and
there's like the mental.
Disorder model.
I mean, I think they all kind ofgo together.

Mm-hmm.

and I would say that yes it is, and I it is.
I mean, it's a mental disorder.
It's listed as one.
And I think that especiallyshows up because if you take
away the substance, it can likemove onto other things, whether
it's food or work as you werejust talking about, it's almost
like

Replacement.

Kind of addictive personality and this
avoidance.

Yeah.
Yeah.

talk about that a lot.
And so it's interesting in theDSM, there's all these different
types of substance disorders.
They have cocaine use disorder,alcohol use disorder, and it's

Yeah,

of silly to me.

The same

right.
Like exactly.
They

Yeah.

of serve a similar purpose, which is to
like avoid or escape.

Yeah.
Yeah, I, when I, going back tomeetings, AA meetings
specifically, when I was goingto those meetings, it was partly
problematic for me to hear, butalso helpful in the same breath.
This idea of like, I had, oh, Iused to go to a women's meeting
specifically.
That's where I felt mostconnected and.

(31:23):
Talking about representation andhow that matters.
There was one girl that I wasbasically girl crushing on.
She just had her life together.
She looked beautiful, she wassuccessful.
She had a beautiful husband.
Like she was basically what Iwanted to be, and so I was like,
wow, she's an alcoholic.
If she's claiming that, like,sign me up, like I wouldn't be
like her,

Yeah.

I reference her specifically because she would
always say like.
Me like, and, and my addictbrain, like she was, she would
use that terminology often, likeme and my addict brain.
And that was a way for her to, Iguess, like keep that in the
forefront, like make that veryclear that like, I am an addict.
And even though I'm not using atthis time, like I'm not

(32:04):
drinking.
I know who I am and I know howmy brain works.
And so that's why, why, when yousaid mental disorder, I I was
thinking actually about her andlike Yeah.
Like.
I find that I have an addictivepersonality and I can use that
as a positive, where like I pourinto things that really matter
to me and I'm invested.

(32:25):
But then also I know that likethere are moments in time where
it can be detrimental to myoverall wellbeing, so I have to
be mindful.
So that's why I bring it up.

Yeah.
I know that's also why theyrecommend, like, if you're
quitting of the substances thatyou had an addiction to, like,
be careful not to replace itwith a different substance.

Mm-hmm.

Right, because it's not really about the
substance at the end of the day.
It's why you're using it in theway that you are.
And I mean, I tried to tradealcohol for weed in my story,
and I just began smoking likeall day, every day.
It was

Yeah.

for sure, but it still wasn't healthy.

Yeah, and I think that's partly like harm
reduction, right?
Like sometimes you have to justmaybe shift into another thing
that's less destructive, but atthe same time, like, and that's
where therapy can really comeinto play, right?
Because if you are being honestand self-reporting like, Hey,
I'm.
You know, I'm using this otherthing now, and now I'm dependent

(33:22):
on this other thing.
It's like, you know, it is, it,it can be a cycle, it can be a
slippery slope.
And so, yeah, that's a greatpoint.
And I think that's so often whatI hear people like turn to weed
or they turn to vaping or theyturn to energy drinks and
caffeine and sugar and it's justlike,

Yeah.

the sugar is like a big one.
That's probably my biggestaddiction, to be honest with
you, is like,

Yeah, me too.

So yeah, just being mindful of that and trying
to.
Do better, I think is isimportant.
Obviously, like once you knowthat, that's a great start, but
then you have to act like wehave to make changes as needed.

Yeah.

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Hello, hello, and welcome back to The Sober

(35:47):
Butterfly.
I am joined with Kendall.
And Kendall, has shared someincredible gems with us so far
as a licensed therapist.
And so I have a fun game I wannaplay.
Is that cool with you, Kendall?
Are you ready to play therapyhotline?
I've been really experimentingwith my games and like this one

(36:10):
is very much curated for you, soyou'll be the first person to
play therapy hotline.
Here we go.

am so excited.

I'm so excited to debut it, so I'm gonna say a
scenario, and I would love foryou to put on your therapist hat
and give us your quick therapiststyle advice based off of the
scenario I provide.
Does that make sense?
Okay, so it's a hotline.

(36:38):
Caller number one, help Kendall,my toxic ex.
Just text me.
I miss you.
What do I do?

Hmm.
Well.
I mean, I would first ask, doyou want to talk to this person
again?
Is this, do you wanna reopenthis door because they're trying
to open the door?
And let's play the take throughfor a minute.
Let's imagine you respond rightnow.
What's going to happen tomorrowor the next day?
Are you get, are you beingsucked back in right now?

(37:09):
And is that where you wanna go?
Is that where you're picturingyour future?

For the plot, but no for the plot, yes.
But before reality, my reallife, no.
And he's still emotionallyunavailable.
We know this.
So I think that's amazing.
Play the tape forward.
Yes.
Love that.

Put on do not disturb, talk to somebody else
about it.

Yes.
Always pause.
Do not respond immediately.
Put the phone down, or pick itup and call someone else
immediately.
Or your therapist, use yourcommunity.
I do actually have my therapiston, like I have her emergency
number.
I've never used it, but she goeslike, call me if you need me.

So much rather a client like, call me than get
back with their toxic text.
Please

Oh yes.
Like I don't care what time itis.
It could be two in the morning.
Call me.
No.
Okay, so call in number two.
Kendall.
I am newly sober and all of myfriends still drink.
What should I do?
Should I just like ghost them?

So I would say that in the very beginning of
sobriety, it's hard to be aroundpeople who are drinking or hard
to be around people whilethey're drinking.
They always say like people,places, and things, you need to
get rid of the people, places,and things that were surrounding
around your use.
I think that that's temporary.

(38:36):
I mean, depending on who thesepeople were, if there's someone
who's not supportive and they'retrying to get you to drink with
them, probably not the people tobe hanging out with.

Right.

like these friends and they're generally
good, but you're just feelingtriggered around them because
they're drinking a lot.
Take a break and let them know.
It also helps to keep youaccountable if you're like, Hey,
I love you guys.
I just like need a break fromalcohol right now.
Uh, like you could say, can wedo other things outside of a
bar?
Can we go do like these sober orwhatever non-drinking

(39:07):
activities?
And if they're not about that,well then okay, maybe you do
need like a break from them andit's a good opportunity to find
other sober friends and youcould go back to those
friendship once you feel morestable in your sobriety.
Or you could say, well, if theydon't wanna hang out with me
sober, like do we really have adeep friendship to begin with?

Right.
That was the perfect answer.
I mean, you said that sosuccinctly.
I say all of those things, butlike 10,000 words more like you
said, that perfectly like that.
Is it basically in a nutshell?
Yeah.
Like I was very sensitive when Ifirst got sober and I was
internalizing like all of thesefeelings, like nobody
understands me and my friendsare so inconsiderate and blah,

(39:48):
blah, blah.
But you know what, I didn't doKendall.
I didn't communicate.
Okay.
I did not communicate how I wasfeeling, what I needed.
And so.
I, I learned it that with timeto your point, like when I felt
more confident and had moresober time, that I could
actually hang with these samefriends.
I would argue I haven't lost asingle friend in sobriety.

(40:10):
I've lost only like drinkingbuddies and acquaintances.
But yeah, I, I love that answer.
That was brilliant.
And everything I say,

yeah.
People aren't mind readers,right?
You have to let them know whatyou need.

Exactly.
Exactly.
Okay, I have two more callers.
Next up on the hotline.
Caller number three.
I feel like I'm the only youngperson who doesn't drink.
It really sucks.
There's no question.
That's just what they said toyou.
I feel like I'm the only youngperson who doesn't drink.

(40:45):
It really sucks.

I can very much relate to that.
I was, I mean, as I've said, Iwas 23 when I stopped drinking
for good.
It's hard to feel like you'rethe only person that's not doing
it.
And when you're feeling likethat, it's more important than
ever to try and find otherpeople that are in your shoes
because they are out there,they're just not obvious.

Mm-hmm.

and so I would encourage you to either.
Go to like an AA meeting or a 12step meeting, or if that's not
for you, then look online likego to for instance, like third
place bar with Sam, or go todifferent events, go to
different sober events, go toother places because those like
fun party events that are sober,they're mostly filled with young

(41:36):
people who are looking for asocial life, but they're just
not drinking.

Mm-hmm.
Yeah.

have to really put in that effort, and that is
hard to do, but it's also worthit.

Yeah, it's hard to do, but once you start doing
it and exercising that muscle,it becomes so much easier.
Also, it's a reframe, like whatdoes fun look like to you?
I would argue yeah, of course Ihad fun nights when I was out
drinking and partying, but Ialso had terrible experiences
drinking and partying.
And so I think if you try toredefine what fun can look like,

(42:13):
and especially amongst, to yourpoint, community and finding a
network of people who are notobsessed with drinking or
prioritizing it, like thingswill start to look up and feel
better because you're aroundpeople who understand that.
Alcohol is not.
Everything right?
It doesn't need to be youreverything.
And then one other thing I wouldsay is social media.

(42:34):
Truly like sober Instagram.
I found so many connections andI know people

Yeah.

you know, weird about online connections, but
like I have genuine friends thatI've met in real life because of
sober Instagram.
So if you don't know anyone inyour everyday, like I didn't
know anyone really sober who Iconnected with or felt like I
could see myself in, especiallyas a young person, like.
Go online, look for examples and

so right.

you know?

There's a lot of different like sober social
media accounts and through thoseaccounts you'll start like
meeting other people who arelike on a similar path as you.
It's pretty amazing actually.

it is.
Especially if you live somewherenot like a huge city or like
whatever, like it's really niceto like know that you have real.
People out there that you canpotentially meet up with if
that's what you wanna do, orjust like, they'll put you onto
other, like, online experiences,like there are different groups
and things that of that nature.
So, yeah.
Okay.
Love that.
My final caller calling numberfour, said that, oh, this one's

(43:39):
a good one.
Call number four says, Kendall,I can't moderate, I've tried.
Being sober and keep relapsing.
I guess I'm just meant to be adrinker.
Thoughts or feedback for thisclient or caller?

What was it?
I guess I'm not meant to be adrinker.
No opposite.
So I can't moderate.
I can't.
You know, stay sober.
I keep relapsing.
Hmm.
Uh, well.
I feel like that's so tough'cause I haven't met someone

(44:20):
who's like, I guess I'm meant tobe a drinker, but more feeling
like they just can't hack it.

Mm.

Like they just can't be sober.

Well, it's something fear might be under
there, right?
Like they, they have a limitingbelief system because they don't
think that they're capable ofit, if that makes sense, right?
I'm afraid that I can't do it.

I think I would question like their level of
motivation to want to changebecause it almost sounds like
that maybe they don't wanna,maybe it's easier to give up and
just say, well, I guess I'm justmeant to be a drinker.
Then like, so I would really, Iwould use in therapy jargon.
I'm like motivationalinterviewing and understand

(44:59):
like, what, what would theirlife look like then if that's
really what they're meant to belike, is

like, what's your why?

Yeah.

Yeah.
That's, that's it.
No, that's, that's brilliant.
Yeah.
I think that's true because.
I had many moments in time whereI, you know, thought maybe I
should quit drinking and didn'tbecause I wasn't ready and I
wasn't willing.
Right.
So, yeah, I think trying to getto the why and the motivating
factors that are driving someoneto consider moderation or giving

(45:30):
up alcohol and then not beingsuccessful, like questioning,
okay, like, well, do you reallywant this?
And why?
I love that.

I do wanna also really quickly comment on
relapses

Yeah, please get into it.

like, oh, I just can't get it.
hear and see people who relapseand they feel like, oh my God, I
had this amount of time and nowI don't have it anymore.

Mm-hmm.

what a waste.
And like, it's not like thattime you had sober was a waste.
You learned so much during thatperiod.
But unfortunately, there's moreto learn.

Yeah.

something happened along the road that led
to a relapse, but that doesn'tmean.
destined to keep relapsing, andit doesn't mean that it's
pointless.
And while you've lost your daycount, so let's just not go
back, right?
Like I.
A day count is just a day countat the end of the day,

Yeah.

if you have two years sober and you have one day
that you relapse just one andthen you come back and you're
sober again.
In the scheme of things likeyour life is pretty much staying
on track.

Yeah.

that one day and turn it into months'cause
you're beating yourself up overit, well then that's, that's
really a shame.

That's really a shame, and I don't know, I'm not
a therapist, but it just soundslike an excuse to like get back
on.
You know, the wagon or fall offthe wagon.
I don't know if you get off orget on, but you know what I'm
trying to say?
I think it's kind of like thatidea, because, you know, I think
about another analogy, like adiet, right?
Like, oh, I was so good allmonth long.

(47:03):
I, you know, ate clean, Iexercised, and then you have one
cheat meal that turns into yougoing right back to where you
started.
Now you're eating everything andadjusting everything, not moving
your body.
It's like.
Well, and maybe even to yourpoint earlier, it's like, well,
what was your why?
Like what was your driving forceand why are you going to throw

(47:23):
away everything that you'vegained in this interim of time
because of one bad day or onemoment?
It just doesn't make sense.

nothing.
The all or nothing, black andwhite trap

Yeah,

is easy to fall into.

and I think.
I used to be like that too, evenbefore sobriety.
Like I never quite describedmyself as like a black and white
thinker, but I can be a semiperfectionist, and I think it's
like as, as soon as I'm notdoing it.
Properly or what I deem to bethe right way, I just give up.
I'm like, forget it.
If it, if it can't be this way,that which is black in my
thinking now that I say it outloud.

(47:58):
But yeah, it's like, it's anidea.
It's like, well, if I can't bethe best or if I can't do it
properly the way I'm supposedto, then I'm just not gonna do
it at all.
And it's like, hmm, that's verylimiting.
That's very like, narrow minded,right?
Like, it's sort of like that.
Plus I think the pressure, thatwe put on ourselves, and then
even like societal pressure.
Being a part of this recoverycommunity in sobriety, like I

(48:20):
think that most of the messagesare positive, but also some
people can be a bit judgmentalwhen it comes to like, oh, well
if you drank this one time or ifyou, I don't know, smoked pot
this one time, like, you're notsober.
You don't deserve that title.
And I think that can be a bit,daunting for people and like
they're just like, well, I am.
I don't feel welcome.

(48:41):
I don't feel welcome if you'regoing to write me off for like
one bad moment.
So, yeah.
I love that you mentioned thaton the positive note, it's sort
of like a relapse is aredirection, right?
it's a marker in the road.
It's like you can go.
On this path, one path isleading you to another day of

(49:04):
sobriety because we make thechoice every day, or you can go
the other way and decide thatyou're going to regress or
continue drinking or using ordoing whatever because that
feels comfortable or that iswhat you know or that.
You're self punishing orwhatever it may be.
So I wanna think of a relapseas, not like a failure per se.

(49:26):
It's just like a a point toreflect and redirect as needed
and you decide the course thatyou wanna take.

Yeah.
And if it's not like acompletely earth shattering
relapse, like, know, it doesn'thave to be, and it can actually
be taken as a good thing, it canbe used as an opportunity to
become that much stronger inyour

Yeah.

because you've learned from it.

You've learned from it.
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Because the best stories aremeant to be heard.
So just as we wind down,Kendall, some final thoughts, or
one last question for you.
If someone is struggling withalcohol and mental health, what

(51:13):
is one thing that they can dotoday to take a step toward
healing?

I think show themselves an act of self love
because when it comes to mentalhealth and substance abuse, I
think there's so much shame andlike self hatred, right?
And so if today, instead oflooking at yourself and feeling
so much anger and pain sayinglike, I'm doing the best that I

(51:40):
can, and also there's more thatI can do you know, I have love
for myself.
Starting with that, startingwith self-compassion and knowing
that you are, you're doing yourbest.
Maybe you can do more.
but that doesn't mean thatyou're deserving of, of pain or
suffering.

(52:01):
and show yourself an act ofself-love, whether it's ordering
in some food you really love, orreaching out to a therapist or
signing up for a gym.
Going to a a different type ofexercise class.
Some way of showing yourselflove.

That's beautiful.
I love that.
And anyone can get sober.
Who was struggling at any age,at any given moment, and I love
your response because it reallydoes start with self-love and
compassion.
And if you don't love yourself,which a big part of my drinking
I realized was I was very.

(52:38):
Hypercritical towards myself,and I didn't love myself in the
ways I deserved, and so I waspunishing myself.
So let's stop doing that.
Stop with the negativeself-talk.
You're doing your best.
I love that you said that.
But yeah, there's room.
There's probably room to grow,but that can be said for anyone.
And so that growth can happen inincremental steps.
It does not need to be this oneculminating, I'm gonna fix every

(52:59):
single thing about myself in onegiven moment.
It's just like, decide today anddo better tomorrow.
Maybe 2%.
3% or whatever percent you cangive.

It doesn't have to be a hundred percent

Yes, just whatever you can give in that
moment.
Start somewhere.
Thank you so much, and I hatethat we have to end somewhere
with this part, but I reallythoroughly enjoyed having you on
the show, Kendall, and I know somany people will want to connect
with you.
So where can people find you?

Well, this has truly been a pleasure being on
here.
Thank you so much.
If people wanna find me, I'm onInstagram and TikTok.
I'm at Kendall B therapy, andthat's Kendall with two Ls.
and then I have my website,which is just.
www.kendallbtherapy.com.
I'm licensed in New York and NewJersey, so if you are looking

(53:52):
for a therapist, you're welcometo go onto my website or follow
my social media accounts.

And you guys, you need a therapist, okay?
We all need therapy.
I want you to take that away.
Like the one takeaway from thisconversation.
We can all benefit from therapy.
So thank you, Kendall.
I'll plug that, I'll plug theall in this show notes for folks
to find you and connect withyou.
Thank you for coming on TheSober Butterfly.

Thank you.

Thank you guys so much for listening to this
week's episode of The SoberButterfly Podcast.
Be sure to subscribe, share, andleave a review.
It helps more sober girls likeyou.
Find the pod.
Make sure that you follow theshow, because you don't wanna
miss what's coming.
Okay, guys.
Until next time, stay bold, staybeautiful, stay sober.

(54:44):
I love you butterflies.
Bye.

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Getting Sober in Your Twenties with Therapist Kendall B. | Anxiety, Alcohol & Learning to Heal

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Getting Sober in Your Twenties with Therapist Kendall B. | Anxiety, Alcohol & Learning to Heal