Sarah From She Stays Sober: Talking Depression, Medication & Mental Health Stigma in Recovery

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
the-sober-butterfly_2_0 (00:01):
Hello.
Hello, beautiful butterflies andwelcome back to the Sober
Butterfly Podcast.
I am your host, Nadine, andtoday's episode is one I've been
looking forward to for a longtime, and I feel like it's so
timely in just how I've beenfeeling in this season of life.
Last week I confessed on theshow with the solo episode,
confessions of an Alcoholic,three Big Reveals, and my second

(00:23):
confession was around my mentalhealth it's just a constant
reminder for me that thesemoments of vulnerability, when
I'm scared, when my voice isshaking, when I don't feel
comfortable is when I need tospeak louder is when I need to
go there.
And I just wanna say thank youto everyone.
Thank you for listening to theshow.
Thank you for being a part ofthis community.

(00:44):
Thank you for reaching out tome.
I received an outpouring morethan I was expecting, an
outpouring of love and support.
People reached out to me, which.
A lets me know that people areactually listening to the show.
So amazing.
But B, people care.
Like people care and like no oneis a mind reader.
You have to tell people how youfeel.

(01:07):
You have, show them what youneed.
How they can help you and me.
Suffering in silence was whatkept me sick for so long with my
addiction, but also me sufferingthrough this depressive episode
has reminded me just howimportant it is to speak up, to
be vulnerable, and inadvertentlywithout realizing, you could be

(01:28):
helping someone just by sharingout loud what you're going
through.
Because some of theconversations I had surprisingly
was me connecting with peopleI'm super close with that I
thought I knew inside and outthat are also revealing these
big things because I shared onthis podcast what I'm going
through, so you never know.
I just wanted to open withsaying, you know, thank you and

(01:53):
quick update life update sincelast week.
This is day five of me beingnicotine free.
I have not smoked a cigarettesince.
Sunday and today is Friday, so Iam super proud of myself.
I'm gonna give you guys a fullupdate as to like how I have
kicked this habit, because forme, I've kicked this addiction.

(02:14):
I've decided just like how Idecided to get sober, like i'm
not drinking anymore.
I'm not smoking anymore.
I'm done.
So I will give you a full reportand update, but just know that
book I referenced last week, howto easily quit Smoking.
Game Changer, because I've beendoing it without nicotine
patches, without gum.

(02:35):
Just listen to that book if youwere struggling with any type of
physical dependency on asubstance.
Okay.
Moving ahead.
This week's episode isincredible.
So we're joined with the amazingSarah from she stay sober.
Someone that I actually metbriefly last summer when we both
did a live taping of tiana'sshow Beyond the Bottle.

(02:57):
I'm gonna link that in the shownotes.
Her episode is incredible andTiana's also a friend of the
Sober Butterfly.
And I will also link herepisode.
But anyway, from that briefmoment that I met Sarah and then
listened to her episode onTiana's show, I knew that I had
to bring her on the podcastbecause her story, her insight,
her honesty, just so powerful.

(03:20):
So part one of our convo today,Sarah and I are just chatting.
We're learning more about whather drinking days look like
before getting sober.
I think what's uniquely specialabout Sarah's story is that she
actually quit drinking March of2020, and we know that's the
very beginning of the pandemic.

(03:40):
A time when most people'sdrinking spiraled.
Sarah chose to get sober then,and total uncertainty.
And I think that's such atestament to her strength and
intuition.
And then we kind of shift intosomething deeply personal for
both of us around Mental health.
So Sarah and I get super openabout being in the thick of

(04:01):
depression and what a depressiveepisode can look like and how
that can impact someone'ssobriety or recovery, just life
in general.
And we even get into like moretaboo topics in both society and
sobriety, and it's around takingprescribed medications.
Or substances for mental health.

(04:21):
Now, this part of the convo issuper important because there's
just still so much stigma and weare here to bust that open with
truth and compassion.
So make sure you stay tunedwhether you are deep in sobriety
just starting or simply sober.
Curious, this one is for you.
Let's get into it.

Hello, hello, and welcome to the Sober
Butterfly Podcast.
Today we are joined with a veryspecial guest.
We have Sarah here with sheStays Sober on Instagram.
Have a lisp that's a tonguetwister for me.
She stays sober.
Sarah from, she stays sober.
I'm say that like 10 times.
So something that really standsout to me though that I love

(05:05):
about your page is I do feellike you get real, like
aesthetically too.
I love.
Like the, is it Chrome?
I can't even describe like thefull aesthetics, but it's like
blurred.
It's really beautiful.
But beyond the aesthetics, yourmessaging is deep and it's very
much like, yeah, I'm gonna behonest about mental health.
I'm gonna talk about depressiveepisodes and like how I'm coping

(05:27):
and working through thosethings.
So do you mind just telling us alittle bit about who you are,
Sarah, and what is She stayssober.

sarah_2_06-13-2025_174106 (05:35):
Yeah, of course.
So I'm Sarah.
I'm a recovering alcoholic andaddict.
I am 33 living in Brooklyn.
I just hit my five years ofsobriety in March, so that was
very exciting.
Yeah, so

the-sober-butterfly_12_06- (05:49):
Yay.

sarah_2_06-13-2025_174106 (05:49):
super excited about that.
It's been a long journey.
It feels like longer, but Ithink everybody says that.
And yeah, she stays sober.
For me, what it is now, it'smainly a social presence on
Instagram primarily, and it'sjust a community and a support
for other people that are in.

(06:09):
Recovery, sobriety, people thatmight be struggling with their
mental health.
I just want it to be kind of ahub for people that they can go
to and find support and connectwith each other.
And that's what it's grown into,which has been great.

Thank you for sharing that, and we
have some parallels there.
I.
Am Oh, I was gonna say I'm 33.
I keep forgetting Sarah.
I'm 34.
I turned 34 in March.
I always wanna be like, I'm 33.
This is the second time I'vedone this in like the last week.
I'm 34, I am coming up to fouryears next month.
So congrats on your five years.
That is in incredible.

(06:44):
I can imagine.
It's been a journey and I wouldlove to get into a bit more of
your story and learning whatlife looked like for you,
especially because you're basedin New York and I feel like New
York is just a very specialplace where it can be incredible
for, you know, buildingcommunity and making connections
and just having so much at ourdisposal, at our fingertips.

(07:06):
But in that same breath, it'salso like there's so much at our
disposal, at our fingertips, andsince I'm doing the math here,
you've been sober for fiveyears.
How long have you been in thecity?

sarah_2_06-13-2025_174106 (07:17):
I've been in the city for over 10, so
I've been here

Yeah.

sarah_2_06-13-2025_174106 (07:20):
a while, so it's been like half
and half at this point.
Really?

the-sober-butterfly_12_06-13- (07:24):
I wanna learn a little bit more
about what life looked like foryou, if you don't mind sharing
before getting sober five yearsago.
Back in March of 20.
Can I do quick math?
2020.
That's right before thepandemic.
So can you share a little bitabout what your life looked
like?
What led you to sobriety?

sarah_2_06-13-2025_174106 (07:41):
yeah, of course.
I started drinking really young.
I was a teenager.
I'm from a small town andthere's like nothing else to do
besides like drink when you getto high school, which sounds
terrible.
And also the people.
That are drinking are the samepeople you know you're hanging
out with all the time andthey're athletes and they're
this and they're that and like,so there's like social pressure

(08:03):
there and that's like how itstarted for me.
But it wasn't to me, I would nothave identified it at that point
in my life as drinkingproblematically or drinking
alcoholically.
That didn't happen until I gotinto when I really started
using.
Alcohol and using just like, asa tool to of like navigate

(08:25):
through my entire life and allof my emotions.
I did well in school.
I think about it now and I like,don't know but I did, like I got
through school, it was fine, butall I cared about was drinking.
Like it was the only thing Iever wanted to do.
I was always following itaround.

(08:47):
Looking for it, chasing it.
And I think that's when mydrinking turned super dark as
well.
'cause I learned to basicallyout as a coping mechanism as
well.
Like I mostly drank with that.
mind is the end goal.
Like I drank to blackout formost of college just to deal

(09:09):
with things I did not know howto deal with or did not wanna
speak about, especially mentalhealth wise.
And now, I mean, I very wellknow that it's not a good path
to choose.
But yeah, I did that all throughcollege.
And then moving here, it justgot.
Worse and more accessible.

(09:29):
Like I went to a state school soit was really accessible.
Like even when I was underage,it's like you always had
somebody that could buy yousomething

Yeah.

sarah_2_06-13-2025_174106 (09:37):
like, yeah, like it was just so easy.
And then moving here, obviouslywas of age and so much of, and I
don't know if it's still likethis now when you enter the
workforce, but like when I did,and I'm sure when you did, like
so much of it revolved aroundhappy hour and.
Drinking with your coworkers.

(09:58):
Like I always had alcohol in theoffice and it was weird if you
didn't have alcohol in your

the-sober-butterfly_12_ (10:02):
Mm-hmm.

sarah_2_06-13-2025_174106 (10:02):
And so it was really easy to hide
and that was exciting to me.
I was like, Ooh, likeeverybody's drinking at 4:00 PM
in the office so I can do that.
And it's not weird.
Like it's so easy to hide in NewYork, which is funny'cause it's
like.
Sometimes I feel so like aloneand like focused on.

(10:23):
And then other times it's likeyou really can do anything you
want and nobody but you notices.
Which is like really wild.
Like not even your like you canhide just so much.
And so I think New York for mewas like super enabling.
I would never have said I was anaddict then, ever.
I didn't even say it when Ifirst got sober, but now it's

(10:45):
very easy to recognize like whatI was doing.
But yeah, my whole social liferevolved around alcohol and my
professional life revolvedaround it.
Like it was how you networkedand how you got to know people.
Like I would be fully lying if Isaid that, like.
didn't somehow benefit meprofessionally because it did,
like I met certain people andbecame friends with certain

(11:08):
people and did things withcertain people.
And it's like, you keep thosepeople close and it doesn't
necessarily mean that it'shealthy, but that's kind of how
it escalated for me here.
And that just kind of likerepeated itself for years.
Like, there's nothing special tomy story.
It's like it just was.

(11:30):
This constant cycle of likebinge drinking.
I was a huge

Yeah.

sarah_2_06-13-2025_174106 (11:35):
I wasn't an everyday drinker.
Like there was probably someweeks in my life where that
happened, but

Yeah.

sarah_2_06-13-2025_17410 (11:41):
mainly just a binge drinker miserable
when I wasn't drinking.
And so that continued,continued, continued.
And it just got to the pointwhere.
I realized like my life was justat a pause, like nothing had
blown up.
I didn't lose my job, I didn'tmy relationship.
I had not lost my family.

(12:02):
Like were mad at me like prettyoften, but like nothing imploded
or exploded, but like nothingwas getting better either.
And knowing that I was like, Idon't wanna be here.
I was always hungover.
I was not a

Yeah.

sarah_2_06-13-2025_174106 (12:18):
I wasn't a good friend.
I wasn't a good fiance at thattime.
I only was concerned aboutmyself.
Like alcoholics are reallyselfish.

Yeah.
Yeah.

sarah_2_06-13-2025_174106 (12:29):
My priority was me and alcohol and
I didn't want that to keephappening.
When I think about the day thatI stopped drinking, like a lot
of people always ask like, youknow, like, what

the-sober-butterfly_12_06-1 (12:41):
You have.

sarah_2_06-13-2025_174106 (12:43):
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And like I did, it was justanother rock bottom.
Like I been like up and down thehills for 15 years, whatever it
was, and it was just anotherdip.
Like I was in a dip and woke upstill drunk.
Still kind of high, absolutelymiserable in all my clothes from

(13:05):
the night before, and I was justso, I was always so disgusted
with myself.
But this morning I was likeparticularly disgusted with
myself

Mm-hmm.

sarah_2_06-13-2025_174106 (13:14):
and it was the first time I felt bad
for myself.
I was like, this is sad.
Like what you're doing is sadAre not happy, obviously I was
finally able to recognize that Iwas not happy'cause I would've
told you till I was blue in theface.
Like, I'm having a time of mylife, like I

Yeah.

sarah_2_06-13-2025_174106 (13:31):
York.
You know, like it's

Yeah.

sarah_2_06-13-2025_174106 (13:32):
ever.
Everything's great.
And it was not great

Yeah.

sarah_2_06-13-2025_174106 (13:36):
you know, I wasn't doing anything to
make it better.
So yeah, like I didn't have likea big crashing out.
I just a day where, I don't knowwhat it was, but I.
Paused and looked at myself andwas like, I don't want this
anymore and I'm not gonna livemuch longer if I keep doing this
either.

(13:57):
And I didn't want that either.
That's what got me to gettingsober.
I know it was very long andwindy, but that's where,

No, it was long

sarah_2_06-13-2025_17410 (14:05):
there.

but relatable because that's what it
is.
It's not this linear, very clearline that's like, oh, I was an
alcoholic or I was drinking toomuch and then, oh, I just
realized that I need to quit.
It very much like takes on manydifferent turns and twists and
so many parts of your story.
I.
Connected to, like when youmentioned all you wanted to do

(14:27):
was drink, that was me.
That rite of passage going fromhigh school to college and then
to New York City and I lovedwhen you mentioned Specific to
New York, like it's obviouslysuper crowded here.
There's so much happening, butlike you can hide in plain
sight.
There's never really momentswhen you're like, alone, alone
in New York.
Like I, I actually crave thosedays when I can go outside and

(14:48):
no one's there and I'm like,wow, that's like 4:00 AM no
one's here.
But ultimately, like you arealways around people, but just
because you're around peopledoesn't necessarily mean that
they can see you and see whatyou're really going through.
And I think so much.
So much of my drinkingpersonally was like putting on
this persona as though like,yeah, everything's fine,

(15:09):
everything's good, butintuitively recognizing that
something was wrong and if I didnot change or attempt to get to
the root calls, a k, a, mydrinking, then I was going to be
in this cycle forever, which weknow it's not sustainable.
15 years.
Is impressive.
I, I gave about 15 years of mylife to drinking as well, but I

(15:31):
would not be here today if Ikept on that path.
So in March of 2020 now.
Pretty much typical morning youwake up and you're like, okay,
Sarah, like I can't do this.
What's going on?
I gotta really do somethingabout it.
But I'm also like thinkingtimeline wise, this is pandemic,
right?
The very beginning of thepandemic.

(15:52):
So what was that like for you?
Because then we go intoisolation, we go into quarantine
most people's drinkingexasperated at this time, and
you got sober.
So can you share a little bitabout what that.
What that process looked likefor you, what those early, early
days in the wee hours of yoursobriety was like?

sarah_2_06-13-2025_174106 (16:10):
Yeah.
Oh my God.
It, it was funny the night that,the night we were out, so March
7th, the night we were out,before I had stopped drinking.
We were all talking about, likewe had heard about COVID and it
was just like this thing we weretalking about, and I work in HR
and people ops, so like we hadknown from our global offices,

(16:31):
like, oh, they were thinkingabout shutting down and just was
this thing that felt so faraway.
And then literally, I think itwas a week later, I was shutting
down offices.
I was home.
We're trying to navigate all ofthis.
I am.
It middle of a detox, like, inmy home and it, and I think

(16:55):
about this all the time, it waslike the absolute most gut
wrenching like month and then 90days of my life, it was like the
hardest thing ever.
I don't remember a lot of thebeginning of it.
All I remember was like a deepknowing of if you do not do this
now, it's not happening becauseif you are home, I don't know
how long we're gonna be homefor,

Hmm.

sarah_2_06-13-2025_174106 (17:17):
what I would do.
I knew that if I starteddrinking again, that was like
end of my book because.

Yeah.

sarah_2_06-13-2025_174106 (17:24):
I hadn't, I didn't have anything
to be accountable for.
I didn't have to commute to workin the morning.
I didn't have to show my faceon, I could make an excuse.
I didn't have to go on Zoom formeetings if I didn't want to.
I could just like

Yeah.

sarah_2_06-13-2025_174106 (17:34):
Could drink while I drank, while I was
working anyway, but I could nowdrink the whole day While I was
working, it

Yeah.

sarah_2_06-13-2025_174106 (17:39):
all I saw was what was gonna happen if
I started drinking again, and Ihad such a deep fear of that,
that I think that's what justkept me in line for those early
days.
And it is, it's like I really,day to day, I like barely but

(18:01):
that

Yeah.

sarah_2_06-13-2025_17410 (18:03):
really thinking about.
I was like, yeah, like

Play the tape forward,

sarah_2_06-13-2025_174106 (18:08):
done.
Mm-hmm.

right?
Like play the tape forward.
Like I, I, yeah, I hadn'tthought about that too.
Like, well, that is why so manypeople, like myself included,
drank more because yeah, I justhad less things that I had to
show up for.
Like I could, I could hide moreand get away with it.
But I also think as a reframe,it sounds as low.

(18:29):
You also have an opportunitybecause if you no longer have to
commute or you have to, youknow, go to these, meet like
work in person and all thethings, right?
If you choose to do this, youcan pour more energy and time
into prioritizing your newfoundsobriety.
And it sounds like that's whatyou did because you've been
sober for five years.

(18:51):
And something you touched onwas.
You know, you said the, thatmonth or so early, early days
with sobriety was not pleasantfor you?
It wasn't for me either.
I remember finding social mediaaccounts on sober Instagram
because I didn't know anyone inreal life sober.
And so everyone's talking aboutlike the pink cloud effect and

(19:11):
pink clouding and rainbows andbutterflies, and I'm just like,
when is that gonna happen forme?
When is that gonna happen?
Because I am miserable.
I mourned alcohol like it was.
A true friend that I lost, likeRIP.
So can you explain to us how youwere able to power through those

(19:31):
difficult moments?
And I know this is going back,but like these conversations
just remind me or forced me tolike go back to those moments
where I'm like, it wasn't easy,but yet.
Here you are.
Here I am.
We persisted.
So can you share anything thatyou can remember about those
early moments and how you wereable to get over that cliff that
that hump of like, oh, this isuncomfortable.

(19:53):
I hate this and I'm miserabledoing it.

sarah_2_06-13-2025_174106 (19:55):
Yeah, very similarly, I started from,
I think I made a fake account tofollow sobriety accounts because
I didn't even wanna see people.
I didn't want people to see mefollowing

The mutual.
Oh, that's so funny.

sarah_2_06-13-2025_174 (20:07):
sobriety related

Mm-hmm.

sarah_2_06-13-2025_174106 (20:09):
my like actual.
And so I started doing that andvery similar to you.
A lot of what I saw was like, Idon't know if I was just like
not in the right place or whatit was, but it was very much
kind of glamorizing things.
And Pink Cloud, I'm like, thiscloud is black.
Like I I, there's no ping cloud.

(20:29):
I don't think I ever had a pingcloud.
I really don't.
And I now know some people justdon't get it which is fine.
But all I did was like, keptmyself.
Busy.
Which again, was so hard becauseyou couldn't go anywhere.
So I did things like, I don'tdo, like I was painting.
I don't paint, like I'm notartistic at all.

(20:50):
I was painting, I read a lot.
I always have.
I was reading constantly.
I was like doing puzzles.
I was like making my like nowhusband buy all these games.
Like a lot of tactile thingstoo.
Like anything I could do with myhands was very helpful.
And I got into like Peloton andany type of movement I could do

(21:13):
within my house.
I'm very fortunate to live rightnext to Prospect Park.
So like I could still go outsideand go on walks.
But I just needed to like keepmyself moving.
'cause if I stopped for toolong, got really nervous.
Like I was very antsy when Ididn't have anything to do
because I was like, all right,well this would normally be the
time.

(21:34):
Where I'd be like, let's go tothe bar.
And then even during thepandemic, that was like deemed
essential, so all the liquorstores were still open and you
could get it delivered.
So there was no, literallynothing gatekeeping alcohol at

Yeah.

sarah_2_06-13-2025_174106 (21:47):
So yeah, I just kept myself like
incredibly busy

It sounds like me, like my
therapist always, like when wefirst started our sessions, and
she'll say this today, she'slike, you are someone that has
to stay busy.
Like you are dangerous whenyou're bored.
And so it also just kind of, notto like put my stuff onto you,
Sarah, but I'm like, it soundsto me too, like.

(22:13):
You didn't have hobbies.
Like if you're, if you love todrink and now you take that
away, it's like, well, what elseis there?
Like, what else am I supposed todo?
And then you're in the middle ofa pandemic, so that just makes
everything so much harder.
I don't know if you've heardthis, like people regress back
to the age or around the agethat they.
First started drinking or beforethey first started drinking, I

(22:35):
should say.
So like I too, like startedpicking up things that I never
used to do or hadn't done sincelike high school, like drawing
and painting and things likethat.
I had to learn like whatpastimes existed out there,
first of all, and like whatthings.
Spoke to me and it's like Iwouldn't know unless I tried.
So I was trying my hand atthings that I would never

(22:56):
typically do because I didn'tknow what else to do if I wasn't
drinking or working, you know?
And sometimes both to your pointearlier.

sarah_2_06-13-2025_174106 (23:04):
Yeah, because I feel like those two
things were my wholepersonality, like I would work
and then I would drink.
And then I would like get up anddo the same thing again.
Like I didn't do, worked out andstuff.
I don't know how like I was likeactive when I was in active
addiction, like very much forlike show and to prove I was
okay.
But didn't enjoy any of thatstuff that I was doing either.

(23:28):
And like I can get into thatlater, but like that's a whole
different relationship that Ihave now as well.
Yeah, like I was just trying tofind anything to do and it is
kind of like where you like,yeah, maybe that was when I was
13.
That might have been what I wasup to.
And to figure out because like,yeah, no, literally like I

(23:49):
bought like color pencils, I hadcoloring, but it was just, yeah,
anything.
I was so desperate to just bedistracted.

I, I also like talking about
fitness and things like that,like I've always been an active
person as well, and in thepandemic I discovered running,
like I, I was into workoutclasses, but like running wasn't
my thing outside especially.
And then obviously gyms areclosed, so I was running
outside, but I.
Also did it for presentation.

(24:17):
I did it because aesthetically Iwanted to look a certain way.
I didn't really care about myactual physical wellbeing.
And obviously I'm consumingcopious amounts of poison.
So that's a given.
But beyond that too, I think.
There was something aboutproving myself to other people,
because I would be that girlthat would surprise you.
Like blackout at the bar.

(24:39):
Right.
And then next morning I'm stillgonna make my workout class
because I'm insane.
Not because I actually am wellenough to attend this class,
it's just because I like, forsome reason, feel like I have to
show up.
I have to be my best, eventhough I'm like.
Slowly killing myself with thissubstance.
So yeah, every time you like saysomething, I'm like, oh my God.

(25:00):
Yes, me too.
So thank you for like, gettinginto that and something I would
love to touch on, Specific towhat I love about she stays
sober.
Have a lisp that's a tonguetwister for me.
She stays sober.
Sarah from, she stays sober.
I'm say that like 10 times.
So something that really standsout to me though that I love
about your page is I do feellike you get real, like

(25:23):
aesthetically too.
I love.
Like the, is it Chrome?
I can't even describe like thefull aesthetics, but it's like
blurred.
It's really beautiful.
But beyond the aesthetics, yourmessaging is deep and it's very
much like, yeah, I'm gonna, I'mgonna be honest about mental
health.
I'm gonna talk about depressiveepisodes and like how I'm coping
and working through thosethings.

(25:43):
Do you mind getting into alittle bit about just how your
mental health has been?
Impacted through sobriety andlike maybe what it looked like
before.
I know you've touched on that aswell, but like just showing us
that like trajectory from presobriety to sober times in terms
of your mental health and thebenefits if any that you
experienced.

sarah_2_06-13-2025_174106 (26:04):
Yeah, of course.
I think that I genuinely, I didnot know I was struggling with
any mental health issues until Idrank, and the first time that I
drank and.
Noticed that it went so farbeyond just kind of like that
initial like warm, fuzzy buzzfeeling.
And I realized it and muted allof this like horrible feelings I

(26:28):
didn't recognize at the timewere like anxiety and paranoia
and depression, like I just didnot know.
But as soon as that like switchwas turned off, I was like, Ugh.
Like that.
It showed me there were likemuch deeper problems going on,
but until that day I, I justthought that that's like what
people felt like inside.

(26:49):
I thought people just walkedaround really scared of
everybody, like hyperventilatingmost of the time, feeling
really, really dark and likehaving suicidal ideations
occasionally.
And I just was like, that justmust be like.
Life, like life is hard.
And you know, you hear peopletalk about it and that's just

(27:11):
how people must feel.
And yeah,, I really didn'trealize it until I started
drinking.
And then that of course, turnedinto like number one coping
mechanism

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sarah_3_06-13-2025_18082 (29:03):
Walked around and feeling like this,
like people were either likesad, anxious, paranoid, like had
really, really deep and werecarrying that around with them.
And it was just because like,life is not easy and like you
get that message all the time,whether it's from like parents
or like media, like whatever yousee is just kind of like, just
keep going.

(29:23):
And I was just like, what Ithought I was gonna do.

Yep.

sarah_3_06-13-2025_180825 (29:28):
but it was so much more serious than
that.
But like you just don't knowthat, I have like incredible
parents.
Like I had a great upbringing.
I, have done so much I havelearned so much more about my
mental health to like alsounderstand it themselves.
But like when you have a kidthat's like a teenager that is

(29:49):
just like constantly sick to herstomach all the time and like
doesn't wanna do anything andyou're just like, you're being
dramatic.
You know, like you don't knowhow serious it is.

Yeah.
Yeah.

sarah_3_06-13-2025_180825 (29:59):
And so I just like.
Thought that just is what it is.
What it is, is what it was.
And then once I learned thatdrinking could like dim all of
that, that's when drinking justbecame full blown

Yeah.

sarah_3_06-13-2025_1 (30:12):
mechanism.
Like anytime I was superanxious, anytime I was having a
really bad bout of depression, Iknew I could turn to that
because nothing else wasworking.
And like therapy was not talkedabout at all.
Like when I was growing

Mm-hmm.

sarah_3_06-13-2025_180825 (30:27):
by anybody, it wasn't like it was.
wrong in my home.
It was just like

Yeah.
Symptom of the times.
Yeah.

sarah_3_06-13-2025_180825 (30:34):
Yeah.
Like it just was still verytaboo.
And yeah, so I just usedalcohol.
I was like, if this is the onlything, like in the whole world
that I can reach for and makeall of this stop, even if it's
not permanent, like I'm gonna doit.

Yeah.

sarah_3_06-13-2025_180825 (30:51):
And I think that's what got me as
hooked as.
was, was like, I was, yes,literally addicted to substance
itself, but also I was just soobsessed with shutting off
feelings.
Like it's all I wanted to do wasjust shut them off.

Yeah, I feel similarly.
I was diagnosed later in lifewith A DHD, which I know that
term gets thrown around a lot,but once I realized that, it
just all started to click andmake sense of my brain.
More like having an overly, youknow, like hyperactive brain.
I.
Alcohol was a depressivesubstance.
I knew that.
I've known that, but it's justthis idea that like, it would

(31:34):
finally quell those likethoughts that I had and make me
feel like I could be morepresent, which sounds insane,
but you know, I feel morepresent as I'm inching closer to
a blackout, basically.
I'm like, yeah, like this isgreat.
Everything's great.
But the reality is like I, I getwhat you're saying, like you're
addicted to.
The feeling of being able toself-soothe and like medicate

(31:56):
and quiet and relax and all thethings that we think alcohol's
giving us.
The thing is like, I'm not gonnalie, it did give me those
things, but it came with more,it wasn't just that it, it would
be too easy, right?
It would be too nice if it werejust like, oh yeah, this works.
And.
Everything's fine.
No, I, I very much got addictedas well, and that part of my

(32:20):
brain still functions in the sasame way.
Like I am an alcoholic.
I know this about myself.
I also have a DHD, so I, I stillhave to manage all of the things
going on up here without thesubstance of alcohol.
So how do you do it like that?
That's something that I'mwondering.
And have you found that yourmental health has improved since

(32:41):
getting sober?

sarah_3_06-13-2025_180825 (32:43):
Yeah, I think that when I had, first I
was diagnosed like officially incollege with having anxiety and
depression and also later PTSD.
And initially when I wasdiagnosed with all of that, to
me that was like, okay, wellthen I have to keep drinking.
Like it was like a sign of thismust continue.
I've had it right the entire

Yep.

sarah_3_06-13-2025_180825 (33:04):
I knew something was wrong.
And then when I got.
Sober.
I was scared.
Anytime I had any feeling, likeif I was happy, I was like, what
the, like what's this?
Because it was just

Yeah.

sarah_3_06-13-2025_180825 (33:19):
any even good feelings, you're like
this, what is it?
Like why you don't know what todo with it?
And it was so jarring initially.
I think about like my firstpanic attack when I was sober,
my first depressive episode whenI was sober, it.
It was horrible.
Like I had to sit in it and Ithink that while sobriety has

(33:44):
improved my mental health in theway that like, I'm not making it
worse.
Like I'm not making myself moreanxious, I'm not making myself
more depressed.
It doesn't it, I wish it waslike some kind of magic wand
for, oh, now you know, all theseare gone.
But they're still there.
And I have to just like, verysimilar to just like taking my

(34:07):
sobriety a day at a time.
I do the same exact thing withmy mental health.
If I try to look out any furtherthan like the hours in the day
in front of me, that's when Istart like slipping backwards as

Yeah.

sarah_3_06-13-2025_180825 (34:21):
being like I'm gonna be depressed
forever.
Like, I'll convince myself thatthe state that I'm in today is
like the only state I will everknow, but if I can use the
lessons I've learned fromsobriety around my mental
health, I found that helps a tonbecause in the same way that
like a craving isn't permanent,I know my depression isn't

(34:41):
permanent no matter how.
Deeply.
It feels like it is, like I ameven like right now.
Like I was telling you earlier,I've been in a depressive
episode for like almost a yearat this point, which is crazy,
and that's the longest one I'vehad in sobriety.
They're typically only like amonth, maybe too long,

Mm-hmm.

sarah_3_06-13-2025_180825 (35:00):
and because I'm in one now.
I like, I'm even finding myselflike I'm waking up and I'm just
like, ugh.
Like, like

Yeah.

sarah_3_06-13-2025_180825 (35:10):
like we're,

Yeah.

sarah_3_06-13-2025_180825 (35:11):
is like, we're still here, but if I
reframe it as you're also stillan alcoholic, I'm like, you've
been doing that.
Like I can get through it.
And I really have to throwmyself into I can control.
So like for me to.
Deal with the struggles that Ihave in my mental health.

(35:32):
I number like my sobriety has tobe the top thing I'm focused on
at all times.
Like if that is not at the topof my list, I like no shot.
And I also have to keep likelike movement in my life.
Every single day I have to likeget up and like go to work and
like come home.
And for me, there's points in.

(35:55):
My depressive episodes whereit's like, I can't, I can't even
like brush my teeth and it'slike that.
like I have to just like, I haveto get through the day and not
drink.
I'm like, I gotta, you justgotta like brush your teeth.
It takes a long time and it'sokay.
But I think

Yeah.

sarah_3_06-13-2025_180825 (36:13):
I was very quick initially to.
Question like, was sobriety theright thing for my mental
health?
Because I'm like, I have nothingnow to figure out how to cope
with it.

Yeah.

sarah_3_06-13-2025_180825 (36:28):
yeah, and I've also, I've been in
therapy for, I'm so, sograteful.
I've been in therapy for as longas I have.
Because I think truly withoutthe therapist that I've had for
all of my sobriety, I would notbe nearly as well equipped to
try and like move.
Through things.
So that also has been a massivehelp to me and I, anybody that

(36:52):
asks me about that, I alwaystell them like, if that is not
something you're doing, likeplease, like if you can and it's
accessible to you, do it.
Because it really does, it makeslike it feels so much less
lonely.
Like even if it doesn't feelbetter, like at least you're not
doing it by yourself.
Yeah.

That's beautiful.
So many gems there.
More recently I discovered I'min a depressive episode and
intuitively I've known it, but Ididn't want to, I.
Acknowledge it.
I didn't want to identify asbeing depressed for whatever
reason.
I've been depressed before andit didn't look exactly like the
last time.
I was like really, reallydepressed, so I was just like,

(37:30):
I'm not depressed.
It's fine.
If anything, it's seasonaldepression, but I did know, and
I think similar to me tormentingmyself wrestling with the idea
of like, am I truly analcoholic?
And you know, going back andforth about like, no, well
alcoholics are like this and Idon't do that and I don't day
drink.
And all the things every singleday and all the lies I was
telling myself actually kept mesick longer.

(37:54):
And that's how I feel even aboutmy mental health.
Like once I recognize that,okay, I'm struggling with my
mental health, I feel like.
Immediately I give myselfpermission to A, be human, and
B, really start the journey tofigure out how to get out of
this cycle.
Because the more I pretend andthe more I tell myself like I'm

(38:15):
okay when I know I'm not, themore I'm going to sit in this
place where I can't even beginthe work.
I can't even start the journeyif I don't acknowledge that
there is a path in front of me.
You know what I mean?
So that that is very telling,and I think specific to my
sobriety.
Being able to no longer defaultto numbing, self-medicating to

(38:39):
soothe, to avoid, to escape allthe things like I'm kind of
forced to deal with myself a lotfaster because I'm just like,
there's, there's no escape.
Like this is who I am and I cansee these things a lot clearer.
But clarity is so much of whatpeople lament about in a
positive way around sobriety.
So.
I just wanna say thank you forthat.

(38:59):
'cause I'm even working throughright now my own understanding
of what depression looks likeand I, I think it's challenging
too.
We talked about this backstage,like when you can't pinpoint a
specific thing that's drivingthat depressive episode, it
makes you feel, I.
I don't know.
It makes me feel crazier.
I'm like, well, am I depressed?
Because what do I have to bedepressed about?

(39:21):
Like, I know the world's onfire, but like specific to me, I
have so much to be grateful forand like life is good, but like
I don't feel good.
So what's up with that?
And then I start to gaslightmyself basically, which I know
is not healthy.
And I'm, I'm working throughthat in therapy as well.
I, I actually think I need a newtherapist.
My therapist love her, adoreher.
She helped me get sober andrecognize I had a problem with

(39:42):
alcohol, but I also think Ineed.
Someone to push me a littlefurther.
And it's not her fault, it'slike me.
But anyway, I digress.
I am connecting to so much ofwhat you shared and I, I wanna
learn from you, Sarah, if youfeel comfortable sharing this,
because I know depression looksvery different for different
people and even for yourself.

(40:03):
Like for me, the last time I waslike severely depressed was and
college was one time for sure,and in the pandemic, which is
right around the time I gotsober.
So.
Do you find that your depressiveepisodes vary?
They look differently?
Because I know that youmentioned this is the longest
stretch, you've been in onesince getting sober.
So how do you know, this soundsso basic, but like genuinely, I

(40:26):
would love to learn from you.
Like, how do you know thatyou're, you're depressed?
A and then b, how do you knowthat you're starting to get out
of that place, that depressiveepisode, for example?

sarah_3_06-13-2025_180825 (40:38):
Yeah, I think that I have a lot of
tells now that I understand,like if you would ask me that
question, I.
Like five, six years ago, Iwould be like, I always know way
too late.
Like I would, I

Yeah.

sarah_3_06-13-2025_180825 (40:53):
known how to like, answer.
But now it's like I'll noticethings.
I will have on red textmessages.
Like,'cause I don't wanna talkto anybody.

Oh my God.

sarah_3_06-13-2025_180825 (41:04):
I won't answer my texts or I'll
open them and I won't answerthem.
I.
starts piling up around myapartment, like just normal.
Like not, it doesn't get dirty.
It's just like my clean clothesit'll take me two seconds to put
in the closet.
They just like sit in a pile ona chair and then I make a pile
on the table.

(41:24):
I mean, there's a pile upstairsand it's like like physical
surroundings will startreflecting like, what is going
on?
And it's little stuff.
Like I'll skip a week of.
Cleaning, like it's, there'slike little things to me that
show it.
And luckily like my, I live withmy husband and like he, he'll

(41:46):
notice I think a lot of times,sometimes even before I do.
And because I have a therapist,she now can see it usually,
like, I can recognize it prettytimely now, but there was a time
when I couldn't, like, it wouldbe a month of feeling that way,
and then I would finally.
with my therapist.
Like, I think I'm depressed.

(42:07):
And she'd be like, yeah, likeyou are you often.
But yeah, and I think thatbecause also'cause I'm sober,
it's like I really do know nowwhat like genuine hopelessness
and helplessness feel like, andwhen that kicks in, I, I, I know
I'm like in it, in it.

(42:27):
And it just like, to me it feelslike.
When I am waking up and feelinglike I am just trying to like
climb out of a hole and thenlike I get dropped back into it
when I go to bed and then Igotta do it again the next
morning.
Like that's when I recognize ittoo.
But I do think like it's verysmall things initially it's just
kind of like not wanting tointeract, pretending I didn't

(42:49):
get invitations to things likejust disregard for any type of
interaction with another humanis how it starts.

That's the first time I've heard
someone say that.
And I am nodding rigorously overhere because Yeah, that's a
telltale sign for me as well.
I.
The apathy I get in this mode,Sarah.
I'm like, what's the point?
Like, just like, what's thepoint?
Is this, it is this life.
Like every day.
Rinse and repeat this.
And it's like, I have a lot tobe grateful for.
I have people that love me.
I have a great circle.
I have great things.

(43:19):
even for me, like being a busybody, like I, I genuinely am
like the type of person thatlikes to stay busy, but then it
just sort of feels like I'mgoing through the motions.
Like I'm not even really beingpresent.
I'm just like, check, check,check.
Because I'm trying to convincemyself that I'm okay and if I
stay busy, I'll be okay.
And it forces me to not dealwith.

(43:40):
My inner self that I know needssome attention.
And I find that journaling doeshelp me because I'm a very
visual person when I put it onpaper and allow myself just like
an open-ended, like just writefree write.
Things start to come up and I'mlike, oh, yeah, okay.
There's something here that I'mavoiding.

(44:01):
And for me, I'm not avoidingwith alcohol anymore.
I'm avoiding by just likekeeping myself busy.
And even if you look at my phoneright now, I literally have like
a hundred messages and I, andthen I'll say like, oh, I'm
busy, but it's like, busy doingwhat?
Like, some of the stuff isimportant, but some of it is
just like, girl, like you'reavoiding.
True connection.
You're avoiding like, really?
'cause you know, if you talk tothis person, they're gonna be

(44:23):
like, something's up.
Like, what's up?
And I don't wanna talk aboutwhat's up, or I just don't wanna
talk because I'm like depressed.
I just don't wanna talk.
I wanna stay inside my innerworld when it might sometimes be
okay to do that and spend timewith yourself.
But oftentimes I find that likefor me, it's like I am avoiding
because I don't wanna lie topeople.

(44:43):
I don't wanna pretend anymore,but that's what I did.
All the years I was drinking,just pretending.
And I don't like to feel likeI'm doing that anymore, but it's
like you don't always wanna getinto it.
Like, how are you?
Life sucks.
I hate, I have no reason to saythat, but it does.
That's how I feel.
It's like, how do you say thatto people?
I'm good.

sarah_3_06-13-2025_180825 (45:03):
God.
Yeah, a

Yeah.

sarah_3_06-13-2025_180 (45:04):
percent.
And like, I think very similarlyto people that I used to avoid
or cancel plans on when I wasdrinking.
'cause they would call me out onlike, what?
Like

Mm.

sarah_3_06-13-2025_1808 (45:17):
you're, this might be a problem for you.
It's those same people thatlike, thank God they're still in
my life.

Yep.

sarah_3_06-13-2025_180825 (45:22):
But it's like, I know they're gonna
know I'm depressed and I knowthey're gonna ask.
So I, and I'm like, why do I dothat?
Because in no world, there hasnever been a situation in which
I have responded or I havegotten dinner with the person
and I've been honest and they'vebeen like, Ugh, yikes.
Like, that's never happened.

Yeah.

sarah_3_06-13-2025_180825 (45:40):
only ever met with like, can I do
anything?

Yeah.

sarah_3_06-13-2025_180825 (45:44):
if they can't, do you just want me
to listen?
Are

Yeah.

sarah_3_06-13-2025_180825 (45:47):
like, are you still seeing your
therapist?
Like it's always met with thesenormal.
Supportive, like, and I knowwho's not gonna be supportive,
so I

Yeah.

sarah_3_06-13-2025_180825 (45:55):
talk to those people about it.
You know, like you know, youknow now like who you can and
can't talk to about mental

Mm-hmm.

sarah_3_06-13-2025_180825 (46:02):
But yeah, like it's those same
people that I avoid and when youare talking about you notice
yourself going through themotions, that's another tell for
me that I completely forgotabout.
Like I will go to like a barclass or something.
I'll walk in.
I have no idea what happened.
And I'm like, on the subwayhome, I'm like, I don't know

(46:23):
what I just did.
Like I have, I have no

sore, but like how?

sarah_3_06-13-2025_18082 (46:28):
right.
Like I'm in pain and like, I'm alittle sweaty, but was I there?
I don't know.
So like the, like disdissociating also kicks in.
But yeah, as soon as you saidthat I was like, oh, yeah, yeah,
yeah.
Like I, I will forget full partsof my day.

Yeah, that's, that's really powerful.
And I think to that, I love theanecdote you gave between like
avoiding the people that youknow, genuinely care will know
what's up.
Like even the people that werelike, Nadine, you were drinking
too much.
Like, are you sure?
Like that kind of thing.
Like yeah, I do the same thingnow with the depression,
depression thing.
But I think too, it's like backto the sobriety, I wasn't ready.

(47:03):
For someone to confront mydrinking and maybe me avoiding
having these conversations withpeople.
It's not because I distrust themor like maybe I'm just like, I
don't want to talk it outbecause I don't know.
Why I'm feeling this way, or I'mtrying to still convince myself
that I can do it by myself.
I can get out of this, I'll befine.
It's just a moment.

(47:23):
It's just a bad week.
It's just, I don't know,retrograde.
But ultimately I think so muchof the suffering and we know
this in sobriety, the oppositeof addiction is connection.
It's very similar.
I think we are social creaturesand it is important to like,
share, even if you don't wannashare with.
Your closest loved ones.
Back to the therapy piece, likejust having someone so that you

(47:46):
don't feel so alone I think isintegral in anything you do.
Especially if you're strugglingwith mental health.
And I would even say sobriety,like addiction is mental health,
right?
Like you're struggling.
It's physical too, but it's alsolike, yeah, the mental fixation
part is a struggle and I need tolike connect with other people
who get it or it can help mealong the way.

so I've shared a little bit already
on the podcast and with youaround my mental health and
feeling depressed in this seasonof life.
Before I confided to thepodcast, I invited to a
girlfriend and her response was,well, I think that you need to.
Get on an antidepressant, and Idon't know why, because I'm not

(48:32):
anti-medication.
I actually take medication formy A-D-H-D-I.
But when she said that I, I wasoffended and I don't know why.
How do you feel aboutmedications, antidepressants
because I think still in thesober world, the sober
community, there's stigmabehind.
Taking any substance, even ifit's a medication with the

(48:53):
supervision of a doctor.
How do you feel in connection toantidepressants or anything like
that?

sarah_4_06-13-2025_182924 (48:59):
Yeah, I mean, I am at a point now
where I have been onantidepressants and anti-anxiety
medication for.
So long that I'm like, I knowthat that's part of what has
like kept me from ending my lifeat points in my

Yeah.

sarah_4_06-13-2025_182924 (49:14):
I know things like that.
But I also know like that when Ifirst went on them, it for some
reason it feels like, don't knowwhat it is because I don't have
a DHD, so I can't make thecomparison of like why that
feels okay and why someonesuggesting medicine for
depression feels like, ooh.

(49:36):
But I think that I just, it wassuggested to me at first, I was
like, I should just be able tolike control that.
Like, I couldn't acknowledgethat like in the same way, like
a DHD.
Is like chemicals in your brainand

Yeah.
Yeah.

sarah_4_06-13-2025_182924 (49:56):
over it.
I, I couldn't acknowledge thatfor my anxiety or my depression.
Like that was not a chemicalimbalance to me.
I was like, no, that is aproduct of like your environment
and if you just get around, likeless triggering stuff or if you
spend more time meditating oryou spend more time journaling
or you just are a more mindful,thoughtful person, you can get

(50:17):
yourself out of it.
You should run, you should like,do I.
Anything.
Like I

It.

sarah_4_06-13-2025_182924 (50:23):
yeah, I was so convinced.
I'm like,

Yeah.

sarah_4_06-13-2025_18292 (50:25):
that's something I can pull myself up
out of.
So I don't need the help.
And really, like, I was like sodesperate by the time I finally
went on'em, and I'm gratefulthat I'm on them.
But like, it really, it took alot, like, it was a lot of
arguing back and forth withmyself.
It's a really hard process to, Ithink with any medication, it

(50:47):
doesn't matter what it's for tolike.
It's like a month of just wholechemistry gets messed up

Right.
Right.

sarah_4_06-13-2025_182924 (50:55):
shit.
You're trying to adjust to itand it's like, I didn't wanna do
that either.
And I've had to do that so manytimes since like I got on the
first one, but it's like, likenow I know what to expect.
But it did, what I wasn'texpecting was.
How hard and how many opinionspeople had about it in sobriety.
And it depends on like thespaces and the communities that

(51:15):
you're in.
But it's like there's somepeople that period, you're not
sober'cause you're on somethingthat's like altering your mind,
helping you, whatever.
And I'm like,

Helping me.

sarah_4_06-13-2025_182924 (51:28):
yeah.
Like I'm just trying, like I'mliterally just.
Like not a wild request.
But they really believe that.
Or it's like some people believeyou can take certain medications
but not controlled substances.
And like my kind of philosophyon it and how I feel about it
now is like if I to take like abenzo once a month for a panic

(51:50):
attack.
I'll do it like

Yeah.

sarah_4_06-13-2025_182924 (51:54):
so much better than letting that
panic attack drag out for dayson end and like drinking or
using over it.
I feel so strongly about thatand like it's and can't talk
about it in certain spaces.
Like this is a space where I can

the-sober-butterfly_12 (52:09):
podcast.
There is no like.
Power powers that be entitythat's like you are sober and
you are not sober because youtake the, like, that to me is so
divisive unnecessarily.
I, I, I don't understand.
So I did wrestle with, once Iwas like officially diagnosed
with A-D-H-D-I I had known for along time.

(52:30):
I had it, but like similar to,to just like the stigmas out
there.
I'm like, well, it's acontrolled substance and like I
know how my addict brain worksand like all the things, but I
take my medication with fidelitybecause it helps me function.
It's helped my depression a lotbecause so much of.
A DHD being undiagnosed anduntreated was me feeling like I

(52:52):
was never doing enough.
I was never like, I was like,there's something wrong with me.
I'm slow.
Like, I'm literally like, whydoes everything take me so much
longer?
Why is everything so much harderfor me?
And so, yeah, if people thinkthat I'm not so weird because I
take Adderall, then I don't carewhat they think because I am
sober and I'm gonna define mysobriety as my drug of choice.

(53:14):
Is and was alcohol.
And I don't drink because Ican't moderate or handle or
manage a healthy relationshipwith a toxic substance.
Like that is what it is.
And I hope I didn't come acrossinsensitive because this is
something I'm still like, tryingto understand for myself, I'm, I
might need to speak to a doctorand

sarah_4_06-13-2025_182924 (53:32):
Yeah.

like literally be prescribed an
antidepressant because.
If this persists for muchlonger.
Like for me, it's been thebetter part of all this year.
And I'm not someone that'stypically afflicted by seasonal
depression, so that that wasalready like a sign there, but
I'm like, oh, it's justwhatever, dark and cold.
I'm recognizing though, likethis is not sustainable for me
forever.

(53:54):
I think the one thing to yourearlier point is like.
The difference, the what?
Differentiates, like, oh,depression.
Like why, why people have morefeelings.
Maybe around like taking anantidepressant is because people
think that you can control yourdepression.
People think that you can justbe happy.
Like why?
What?
Why you happy?

(54:14):
Like you just be happy.
Just yoga.
Have you tried meditation,Sarah?
It's like, what?
What the fuck?
Like, what are you talkingabout?
Yes, of course.
I've tried the things.
So I think that that part of meis still, it still needs to be
like indoct or unlearned.
Like there's an indoctrinationthat's happened where it's like,

(54:34):
just like how we've grown as asociety around like this idea of
therapy being a real science,it's a real support.
That can help people.
I think the same.
Sentiments can be said aroundantidepressants.
Like people just think thatyou're just not trying hard
enough to be happy.
And like that is obviously nottrue.
But that was still my reactionwhen my friend said that.
I'm like, well, I haven't, have,I tried all the things.

(54:57):
I'm just finally admitting thatI have.
Depression to you.
You're the first person I'mtelling.
And default, you're like, here,like, talk to a doctor.
So like, I think that's whereI'm trying to like, make sense
of it for myself.
I'm not against it.
I have no, I, I don't, I have nofeelings about it.
'cause like that's anotherthing.
Like I'm not you Sarah, I don'tknow what your life is like.
Like I don't know how you feel.
Like it's ridiculous to me thatpeople have feelings about this.

(55:19):
I'm like, well, you are notwaking up as me every day, so
you don't know how I feel.

sarah_4_06-13-2025_182 (55:24):
Exactly.
Yeah.

Anyway, sorry.
I just wanted to put the, putthat out there because I know
that like, it can be a hot topicfor some and I'm just like,
listen.
We're trying our best, we're alltrying our best here.
I will say like one thing andlet me know if you feel
connected to this.
Like, one thing that I'mrecognizing though, since I've

(55:45):
started taking my Adderall, myprescribed dosage of Adderall,
that I'm not abusing.
I have noticed, I'm like, well,I have to take this forever.
And I think that's another thingthat I'm like, I don't know if I
wanna add another thing.
I'm like, I don't even knowbecause life feels so much
better with my medication.
But I also don't want to bemedicated for the rest of my
life.
Does that make sense?

(56:06):
Like, how do you feel?

sarah_4_06-13-2025_182924 (56:06):
my gosh.
It makes so much sense.
And like I.
So when I went into thisdepressive episode, I was on
like a certain dosage of onemedicine

Mm-hmm.

sarah_4_06-13-2025_182924 (56:17):
I had had like a lot of trouble with
the psychiatrist that I wasseeing.
So I like switchedpsychiatrists, got another
terrible one, finally found onethat was like amazing and I love
them, they're great.
But when we started talkingabout like how I'm feeling right
now, they waited a couple ofsessions and then brought up

(56:38):
maybe.
Like, we wanna add this othermedication that works really
well with your medication.
'cause I'm also really sensitiveto like, I will not take
medication that could possiblymake me gain weight.
'cause I have a ton of problemswith like eating and my body and

Same.

sarah_4_06-13-2025_182924 (56:56):
And so I know there's certain things
I'm like, no, no, no.
Like you can't, we're not evengonna go

Yeah,

sarah_4_06-13-2025_18292 (57:01):
world.

it just gonna make everything, it's
just gonna

sarah_4_06-13-2025_182924 (57:04):
yes, it's like a fear.

with you girl.
Yeah.

sarah_4_06-13-2025_182924 (57:08):
like each medicine to me feels like
this Pandora's box of like,you're just gonna ruin something
else.
And so it was, so it took likeover a month of convincing of
let's just try this at thelowest possible dose added onto
what you're taking.
And that's what we did.
Like did the lowest dose.
The lowest increases overmonths,

Yep.

sarah_4_06-13-2025_1829 (57:28):
months.
I'm so lucky now because a lotof people are not that gentle
with it, and they don't have thepatience because.
I think it's unfortunate like alot of psychiatrists, depending
on how you get them, like theyjust,

Check box.

sarah_4_06-13-2025_182924 (57:40):
it.
Yes.
They're just like, take this.
They don't even consider likewhat a dosage could impact what
other like illnesses you mayhave.

Mm-hmm.

sarah_4_06-13-2025_182924 (57:49):
I, yeah, I'm lucky I found someone
that's like incredibly patient,but my initial reaction to.
A suggestion of a new medicine.
One was like, absolutely not.
We're not adding to this likemess I already have.
And then once I added it and itlike making things like
exponentially better, but itwasn't making things worse,

Right.

sarah_4_06-13-2025_182924 (58:09):
the suggestion of like maybe only
five milligrams, I was like, no,no.
Like I can't, there's no morelike,

Yeah.

sarah_4_06-13-2025_182924 (58:16):
end.
But like then having someonetell you it ends when you want
it to end, like you

Yeah,

sarah_4_06-13-2025_182 (58:21):
yourself off of it and.
you don't like it anymore, youcan wean yourself off

the-sober-butterfly_12 (58:27):
exactly.

sarah_4_06-13-2025_182924 (58:28):
that and you're like, shit, I'm in
the same spot I was in, you cango back on it.
And it's like, if that can methrough the, if it's yes, like
I, I don't like the idea eitherof like, this could be something
for the rest of my life, but I'mlike, if that's what gets me to
live through the rest of my lifein like, you know, a way that's.

(58:52):
Mildly like tolerable when I'min these types of episodes, or
like maybe I just have toincrease it when I'm in a really
bad episode.
Like, there's also that option.
It's like to me it's, it's worthit.
But like I totally understandjust the like, resistance to
even like adding something elsein.
'cause it's like, for me it'slike, it's a big.

(59:12):
It doesn't matter how long I'vebeen on medication, period.
It's like it's a big fear that Ihave adding anything else in
there for sure.

Yeah, and the stigma from.
The sober community, which webelong to, needs to stop.
Okay, guys, you gotta knock itoff.
Okay.
Stop telling people how to livetheir sober lives..
Thank you for sharing that,Sarah.
Like that's very helpful for metoo.
And I think it just sounds to melike we, we have to have trust,

(59:43):
trust in.
The providers, the people thatare actually consulting with us
and making sure that they careabout the whole profile, not
just like the the singular thingI'm telling you.
Get to understand me as a personbecause yeah, I have other
things connected to as mentionedlike body.
Eating.
Eating.
Yeah.

(01:00:03):
I would love to, maybe not nowone day have a part two
conversation because that issomething very real a lifelong
pursuit or not pursuit, a thingthat I'm working with, dealing
with.
But anyway I would love to hardshift, play a little game as we
wind down.
Is that okay?

sarah_4_06-13-2025_182924 (01:00:20):
A game.
Yeah.

the-sober-butterfly_12_06- (01:00:21):
Yes.
I love to experiment with mygame.
I've never featured the samegame twice so you're getting a
brand new game.
Everyone gets a new game.

sarah_4_06-13-2025_182924 (01:00:28):
You come up with a new game for
every person.

the-sober-butterfly_12_06-13- (01:00:31):
I do.
I have, well, I try to like, I.
Connect it to like the theme ofthe episode.
So without further ado, thisgame is called, Sober Struggle
or Self-Care.
Are you ready?

sarah_4_06-13-2025_1829 (01:00:45):
Mm-hmm.

the-sober-butterfly_12_06-13 (01:00:46):
so sober struggle or self-care with
Sarah.
This is like a rapid fire game.
So I just want you to saywhatever comes to your mind,
okay?
Staying in bed until 11:00 AM.
Sober struggle,

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:01:01):
care.

self care.
Yeah.
Especially on like a weekend, aSaturday, a Sunday.
Yes.

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:01:06):
Yeah.

If I'm in bed chilling with my
book, like that sounds like aperfect Saturday.
Whatcha talking about?

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:01:13):
You are not hurting anybody.

a new one.
Okay.
What about deleting all socialmedia?

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:01:20):
Uh, for me that's self care.
'cause I also, like, even now, Ido not allow myself on any form
of social media for longer than15 minutes a day because I will,

15 minutes.

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:01:32):
15 minutes.

Oh, that's impressive.

sarah_5_06-13-2025_1843 (01:01:36):
minutes because I will lose my mind.
I like

Hi.

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:01:39):
the like comparison game and like
it's, I'm like, what am I, so tome it's self-care because I'm
like protecting a part of me,

What about if you're, you're newly
sober?

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:01:51):
hmm, I don't know.

I feel like I would tell.

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:01:55):
it can be helpful.
Like I think when I was newlysober, the time I spent on
social media.
going through like certain soberaccounts and like therapist
accounts and things like that,like helped me immensely.
Um,

the-sober-butter (01:02:12):
screenshotting everything.
Screenshots,

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:02:14):
Oh my God.
Yeah.
I kept everything.
I still have like my like photofolder from the first like year
of my sobriety is hilarious.
Like,

yes.

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:02:22):
I was like, how did this apply that I
was, but it did

Just everything.
I, okay.
I would say like, yeah, 15minutes.
I'm just blown away.
I wish, I wish I, I, Iintroduced this idea of like,
um, a silent summer, a silentsober summer where like I take
intentional breaks from social.
I have not implemented that yet,but it's not summer.
Yeah.

sarah_5_06-13-2025_1843 (01:02:45):
summer, so you can

It's not officially summer.
But yeah, I think what I wouldtell.
The girlies or whoever'slistening at home is, especially
if you're newly sober, I wouldsay, um, or not, even if you're
newly sober, like I would sayunfollow or like silence, toxic
drinking accounts.
I'm thinking like bitches andlike, you know, the, the
accounts, like those ones thatglorify drinking and like, I

(01:03:07):
think I, I love humor.
But I think like humor disarmspeople and then like you can get
your.
Insidious message out to themasses.
Like you're like laughing.
Next thing you like, oh, like Ikind of wanna drink because you
make it so seem so funny.
And it's like,

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:03:25):
Yeah, because it looks, it's like so
funny

the-sober-butterfly_12_06 (01:03:27):
yeah.

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:03:28):
clip, but like not for

Let's

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:03:31):
life.

keep rolling.
What really happened after that?
Like, let's see, the, let'sreally play that tape forward.
Yeah.
So, okay.
I'm just so impressed with 15minutes there.
Wow.
Um, I gotta like get like you,um, and I tell myself as a
creator now I'm like, oh, I'm,I'm doing research, girl.
I'm like, doom scrolling.
Uh, whatever time.
Okay.

(01:03:53):
What about, we have a couplemore here.
What about, um.
Crying in the shower to a blank,fill in the blank for yourself.
Playlist.
So like whoever is like thatperson.
Is that a sober struggle or aform of self-care?

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:04:10):
A sober struggle

Yeah,

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:04:12):
me.
Yeah.
Because honestly, I think like I

I.

sarah_5_06-13-2025_18431 (01:04:16):
didn't cry to a playlist until I was
sober.
like to me, I'm like, it's a, tolike even have enough capacity
for feeling and thinking thatwould be a cathartic experience,
like

Yes.

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:04:29):
feels like a sober struggle to me.

I love that.
I agree wholeheartedly.
Yeah, I drank to avoid feelings,so Yeah.
Here you come waterworks,because I'm sober, just like
pent up all those years.
Okay, my last one for you.
I feel like I know what you'regonna say, but saying no to.
Brunch or like whatever planswith friends.

(01:04:51):
Now you can classify thosefriends.
Are they drinking friends?
Are they sober friends?
Just friends saying no tosomething with friends.

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:04:59):
I would say both for me, I think
sometimes.
If I'm thinking about like, Idon't know, I think it's both no
matter what the situation is.
'cause if I'm avoiding friends,that primarily, not avoiding
them, but like if I don't,

Yes.

sarah_5_06-13-2025_18431 (01:05:15):
myself from a brunch or an event, like,
sorry, frankly hears this, likeif I remove myself from that,
it's not them.
It's like I know I'm just gonnabe triggered if I'm like

Yeah.
Yeah.

sarah_5_06-13-2025_1843 (01:05:24):
Depends on like the size of the space.
Like I will, that to me is asober struggle for sure.
But it's also like.
I have so many sober friendsright now and like sometimes I
don't have the capacity for likethose events either.
And like to me that's like selfcare.
I'm like, I have to set aboundary of like, just because
I'm sober does not mean I needto, I had to learn this.

(01:05:45):
Like I do not need to go toevery sober event or everything
somebody invites me to justbecause I'm sober, like I don't
have to do it.
And like that took me years,like literally years to be like,
that's okay.
Like.

thank you.

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:06:02):
And I'm happier for it.
Like really?

You just know someone's gonna text
Sarah and say, I knew you wereavoiding me.

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:06:09):
Yeah.

No.

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:06:12):
Add 70 more texts that I'm avoiding
to my phone.

Right.
I mean it's, it's, I think it'slike a preservation thing.
Like sometimes you just don'thave the emotional capacity or
like the bandwidth or the, thebattery.
Right.
And like I love that you saidyes.
Just because you get soberdoesn't mean you have to like,
go to every single sober thing.
Because I was definitely in thatspace and I was just like, I'm

(01:06:35):
like, this is not, it's quality,not quantity.
I'm just like, yes, it's greatto like connect with people and,
just because we're sober.
That common thread.
Yes, it's a great way to bond,but it doesn't mean that like we
need to be best friends or likewe have everything in common.
So anyway, I love that you saidthat'cause I feel similarly
thank you for playing, um, thisbrand new game that probably

(01:06:56):
will never be played again forstruggle so, or self care.
Um, I wanna wind down, but like,honestly this, sorry.
If you hear the siren, citynoises.
Okay.
Um, one other.
Thing I just thought of that Iwanted to ask you earlier.
I wrote it down, because youmentioned before getting sober,
you had a fiance and then thisis your current husband in

(01:07:19):
sobriety.
What was it like having a soberwedding?
God willing, I'll get marriedone day.
Sarah and I will have anexperience what I'm sober at my
wedding.
So tell us a little bit,'cause Ithink that's so unique and I
would love to hear how yourwedding went.
Did you have a wedding?
I didn't even, I'm sorry.
That's so rude.

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:07:36):
no, I did, we had a wedding.
It like, was bigger than Iwould've liked, but like, you
know, everybody's opinion isinvolved, uh, when you decide to
do that.
So it was.
It truly, it was like one of thecalmest days of my entire life.
Like I,'cause I like woke up andI just got to like get ready and

(01:08:01):
hang out with my friends andlike, I wasn't hungover.
I wasn't like, wasn't trying tojust like, not drink until the
reception.
Like all these things I thoughtI was gonna have to worry about
when I got married.

been me.
Literally, like I don't wannadrunk as I.

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:08:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Exactly like I literally thoughtlike, I'm gonna have to so
meticulously plan this day andlike pick one of my bridesmaids
to be like looking out for meand like not letting me drink
and this and that and the otherthing.
Like I was thinking about thatbefore I was ever even like
engaged and that's crazy.
Um, had like the most beautifulday that I was fully present for

(01:08:40):
that I.
and like I get to look back onthese like videos and photos and
I'm like, I remember that.
Like I remember being in thatcircle dancing with like my mom
and my sister.
I remember what my husband saidto me when he wrote his vows.
I remember like my hair andmakeup done and like not being

(01:09:04):
miserable the whole time I wasdoing it.
It's like.
I was so present and like one ofthe, I still think this is like
one of the funniest things aboutmy wedding.
We had, um, mingle is uh, like aPhiladelphia based company and
they do like non-alcoholicdrinks or whatever and like we
did the, his and hers cocktailsor whatever and mine was a, was

(01:09:25):
one of those mocktails and weran out of'em like.

Oh,

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:09:30):
was no other, like we had a couple
of pregnant people at mywedding,

oh,

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:09:35):
so many people were drinking them.
And it was funny'cause I wastalking to people because I was
like, how are these gone?
like later I was talking topeople and like other friends
and they were like, oh yeah,they just like tasted good.
So I, and like me, I can'tcompute that.
Like you stopped drinkingalcohol

that's amazing.

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:09:52):
Like, that doesn't work in my head,
but

But next time, leave me sound
please.

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:09:57):
But it was so funny.
Like it was such a, I was like,oh, like, that's great.
Like we drank all of the, like,I have like non-alcoholic
champagne so I could like stilldo the toasts and like, stuff
like that.
And yeah, I think it just madeit like, made the day way more
memorable for me.
And like, I have gone to so manyweddings, so drunk and like, so

(01:10:23):
blacked out and like.
I got to like, no one saw meanything but sober on my own
wedding.
And I remember the whole thingand it was like, and I had so
much fun.
Like I had the best time.
Like I didn't have any less fun'cause I wasn't drinking.
Like I just had a great time.

(01:10:44):
And I also, I don't think Iwould've felt like, I think one
of the, like one of the things.
People at least I was notprepared for at my own wedding,
is like the love that everybodyelse is like emanating at you is
like, I never would've felt thatif I was drunk.

that's beautiful.

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:11:05):
it's so, it is like, I've never
experienced that before.
'cause like you, when you'resitting at a wedding and it's
for someone you love, like you,

Yeah.

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:11:13):
you feel yourself doing it.
You're

The energy you just, it radiate you
were just like, oh my gosh.
I'm so happy for you.
Yes.

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:11:18):
but when you're like in it and like
you're up, you know, doing yourvows or when you're like having
your dance, whatever it is, it'slike that is a feeling that like
have never felt, I'll probablynever feel it again.
'cause when are you in thatsituation?
But it's like I never, that issomething I never would've
gotten to notice or experienceif I was drinking at my wedding.

That's beautiful.
Yeah.
You're quite literallycalibrating on a higher energy
level and like, uh, yeah, thepresence part is amazing.
Similar to you, I've been atmore drunk weddings than I have
sober, and I unfortunatelyremember I was my cousin's like
maid of honor and I blacked outand gave my maid of honor toast.

(01:11:58):
I, I have no idea what I had.
Like, I was messing up, I thinkhow long they, the couple had
been together.
This is my, my cousin that'slike a sister to me, it's so
embarrassing in front of ourentire family.
And also I'm like, have you seenthose?
Like, it was like a trend whereit's like, I'm so and so, and
I'm the, I'm,

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:12:16):
Yes.

and this is my first drink.
And then fast forward to likethe end of the night and they're
like literally face planted inthe sand at the beach and the
bride and the groom are doing ittoo.
And I'm like.
Cute.
Like, like that doesn't evenseem fun.
Like what whatcha you guysdoing?
So yeah, don't want that to bemy experience.
Um,

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:12:36):
and it won't.

and it won't if I, well we don't
know Sarah'cause I don't evenknow if I'll ever get married.
I'm chronically single overhere.
But maybe one day if you knowsomebody.

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:12:46):
If I find someone, I will let you

Let me know.
I like, literally, I can't, I'mtrying not to, I shouldn't say
I'm trying not to do the apps.
I'm just so over everythingright now.
I'm depressed.
Like quit literally.
I'm like, I'm just hard line.

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184 (01:12:59):
probably like the last thing we wanna do
right

It's, yeah, that, that part, but I'm
also like pressure of like.
I'm 34.
We've recognized I'm 33.
I'm 34, and if I ever wanna havelike, I don't know, a child one
day I need to like, then youstart to project, like literally
I'm doing all the things I knowI shouldn't be doing.
I'm like doing the math.
I'm like, if I don't meetsomeone tomorrow, then that
means I'm not gonna have a babyuntil I'm like 36.

(01:13:21):
And then I just, anyway.
What a, what a great episode.
We have talked about everythingunder the sun and like I still
feel like there has to be a partto,'cause I genuinely, when I
learn more about your experienceand I feel like just being
millennial girly is like aproduct of our time is just
like, obviously been drinking inhigh school, moving into college
then like we just came from areally messed up time.

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:13:43):
Yeah.

Like thinking about skinny is
everything, and just like thebody dysmorphia and the eating
and like, and like evenconnected to drinking.
I had junk auryxia, like I couldget into it so much with you.
Um, so hopefully there can be apart too.
I would love to shout some morewith you,

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:13:59):
would love that.

but, and.
Essence.
I just wanna say this has beenan amazing conversation, Sarah,
and I've learned so much aboutyou and from you, and especially
as it pertains to mental healthand my mental health struggles
that I'm currently workingthrough right now, and I
genuinely appreciate everythingthat you've shared with us.
I would love to just open theplatform for you to share how

(01:14:22):
can people connect with you andany last notes that you have for
us.
We are all ears.

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:14:29):
Yeah.
The easiest way to connect withme is to just, I will answer
pretty much any like DM onInstagram.
So like if you wanna get intouch with me personally.
Just send me a message there.
I think my email's also tied toit.
It might take me a little bitbecause of my, my limits on
socials, but like I will, I doget to it and it's important to

(01:14:50):
me and like.
like I'm always happy even therehave been people on Instagram,
like to this day I have likenever met them in person, but
like we have each other'snumbers and like we check in on
each other a lot.
Like some of the people I'mclosest to and know the most
about my sobriety are peoplelike that.
And like I genuinely mean it.
'cause like the last thing Iwant is for somebody to feel
like they don't have somebody totalk to, um, when they're going

(01:15:12):
through this.
I think like that's probably thebest way to get in touch with
me.
And I think just the only otherthing.
I think that's like worth sayingas to like anybody that's
listening that might bestruggling, whether it's you're
trying to figure out, know, ifsobriety is the right thing for
you, if you are in your sobrietyor your recovery and you are

(01:15:32):
like, I cannot do this, like forone more day, just like ask for
help.
I think asking for help is trulylike the like bravest, strongest
thing you can do for yourselfand.
Just don't have any shame aroundit and like, I think, yeah,
asking for help can change much.

(01:15:53):
But you have to be the one thatdoes it.

I love it.
Thank you so much, sir, forbeing here.
And I will plug, she stayssober.
See, I said it right that time

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184 (01:16:02):
Perfect.

it down.
So the voice, um, uh, andlisten, that's for folks to
connect with you.
Thank you for.

sarah_5_06-13-2025_184314 (01:16:09):
Thank you.

I'm so grateful to Sarah for sharing
so openly about getting soberduring a global crisis, about
battling depression in sobrietyrecovery, and for helping me
unpack some of the nuances andtaboos that we don't always talk
about in the sober space.
If you're listening to this andyou're struggling right now,

(01:16:33):
whether that be mentally,emotionally, whatever, just know
that you are not alone.
Sobriety doesn't mean thateverything magically gets
better, but it does mean thatyou get to face life with
clarity, support, and community.
If you love this episode, pleaseshare it with a friend who needs
to hear it.
Please don't forget tosubscribe, rate and review the

(01:16:55):
Sober Butterfly on Apple Podcastor Spotify or wherever you're
listening.
It really helps others find theshow and follow us on Instagram
you can find our handles in theshow notes.
Until next time, remember, youdon't have to be perfect to be
powerful.
Keep going, keep growing, anddon't drink alcohol.

(01:17:15):
I love you guys.
Bye.

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