Wake-Up Call to Wellness: How Sobriety Transformed Melissa McGovern's Life

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
the-sober-butterfly_4_02 (00:02):
Hello, hello, and welcome to the Sober
Butterfly Podcast.
I am your host, Nadine Mulvina,and today we are joined with a
very special guest.
Melissa, welcome to the show.
How are you today?

melissa-mcgovern--she-h (00:15):
Nadine.
I am doing so well.
Thank you for having me ontoday.

the-sober-butterfly_4_02-26-2 (00:19):
I am so honored to have you on
today, and I kind of just wannajump into your story because I
know that you have so many gemsto share with us.
And I wanna start with thebeginning.
Is that okay?

melissa-mcgovern--she-her (00:31):
sure.
There's a lot to cover.

There's a lot to cover.
Let's get into it.
So I know that you mentionedthat you were never a moderate
drinker.
Same.
Same.
I don't even know what that wordmeans, that your drinking really
escalated during the pandemic.
So I would love to learn fromyou, what did drinking look like
before versus during that time?

melissa-mcgovern--she-her- (00:54):
Well before the pandemic, actually,
right before I was four monthssober,

the-sober-butterfly_4_02-26 (01:00):
Oh.

yeah, you know, probably about 20 17,
20 18 was when I really startedto get very sober, curious, and,
know, started hearing podcastsabout it.
That book came out by Ruby yet?
Well, no, actually sober Curiousby Ruby

the-sober-butterfly_4_02-26- (01:19):
Oh

Mm-hmm.

yes.

melissa-mcgovern--she-her-_ (01:21):
And I heard.
One year no beer was a, anEnglish campaign.
Andy Ramage was on the Rich RollPodcast talking about his new
book, the 28 Day, remove AlcoholExperiment.
And I thought, know, this issomething that is calling me to

(01:43):
try.
I had periods where I would seemy doctor.
And my liver enzymes would beslightly elevated she would
recommend removing alcohol for afew weeks and come back and
retest my blood.

Mm-hmm.

the first time she did that, it was,
you know, over Labor Day weekendand I thought, oh my God, you
know, not drinking over LaborDay weekend.
does that mean?
What does that look like?

the-sober-butterfly_4_02- (02:13):
Yeah.

Okay.
But I did it and in those threeweeks felt amazing.
Like it was a real glimpse ofwhat life could look like and
feel like without alcohol, andit was really beautiful and

(02:33):
amazing, and I felt so good.
I lost some weight.
I slept better.
just felt revived.
There was always a part of methat not imagine it not in my
life for the long term, so Iwould always dip my toe back in
and try to moderate my drinking,and 2019.

(03:00):
were, you know, especiallyramped up in the fall of that
year.
I had my niece's wedding out inColorado where I just, you know,
went, went for it big time.
Almost didn't make the wedding.
Honestly, if she would've gottenmarried at noon, I probably
wouldn't have made it because Iwas a wreck from the night
before, you know?
And you blame it on thealtitude?

(03:22):
The altitude, right.
Ooh.
Yeah.
It had nothing to do with allthose shots from the night
before.
But in, in November of 2019, Ijust had one of those days, one
of those nights where I, I wokeup the next day and I was like,
I am done.
This is enough.
I am so sick of my own shit.
And I snapped a selfie and Ileaned into that program that

(03:47):
one year, no beer and.

Oh,

Yeah, it involved like a daily email
and a video and a Facebookgroup.

oh, wow.

So, you know, there was some, there
was some accountability

Yeah.

melissa-mcgovern--she-her-_2 (04:03):
y.

the-sober-butter (04:03):
Accountability and community it sounds like.

you know, you could lean into it as
much as you wanted.
You could

Okay.

as often as you wanted to.
And, and I did, you know, somepeople did often and, and quite
a bit.
But, you know, I, I formedrelationships on there that I,
that I felt held me accountable.
But then on March 12th, 2020 inNew York, I'm sure

I was there.
Mm-hmm.

No one knew what the hell was going
on in the city.

End of the world as far as I was
concerned.
Yeah.

And

Felt like it.

and I went out for dinner that night
and I, it was exactly fourmonths to the day and I said,

Whoa.

melissa-mcgovern--she-her-_2_ (04:46):
I think I'm, I want a beer.
Like something said to me like.
I don't know what's going on.
This feels out of control andcrazy and weird and you know,
can I just have a drink toforget about it?
And

Take the edge off the.

Yeah.
he did say to me, have a beer.
And then the very next thing hesaid was, do you think you can
have just one?

Oh, wow.
He shoulda opened with thatpart.

melissa-mcgovern--she-he (05:12):
Right.

beer like he shoulda been.
Do you think you could just havebefore, but yeah, I get it.
No, that's, that's powerful.
Yeah.

And I, you

What did you say?

night, that night, I did have just one,

Okay.
Okay.

and then, you know, the few days
after that I probably didn'thave any.

Yeah.

and then, you know, like it does, it
just slowly creeps back intoyour life.
And I started a side hustle inthe pandemic.
'cause I, I lost my job.
I was working with.
An elderly woman at the time inher, in her building that was,
you know, for residents of, youknow, seniors and they locked

(05:49):
down.
So she, she got whisked awayupstate with her son, which was
a good thing.
And.
I was outta work.
My husband was home.
My two teen teenage childrenwere home.
You know, it was, it was notnormal.
And, I started making, makingcloth face masks, which was

Oh, cool.

a cool little side hustle that I,
I had an old sewing machinetucked away, and it kept me
really busy, and it kept mecreative.
But you know what?
It also kept me deserving of.
open a bottle of wine at fiveo'clock

Yeah,

after sitting

you worked hard.
Mm-hmm.

you know, seven hours a day.
So, and then we had, we had somereal personal loss.
You know, I, I know a lot ofpeople had loss in the pandemic.
A lot of, a lot of it was COVIDrelated, but we lose sight of,
of, of regular loss during that

Yeah.

My, my mother-in-law in.
And July of 21 was diagnosedwith a cancer.
She had a tumor wrapped aroundher spine and

Oh man.

gone 10 days later.

Oh my goodness.
I'm so sorry.

you.

tough.
That's very hard.
Were you able to see her beforeshe Oh, that's

all had

the-sober-butter (07:09):
heartbreaking.

down to see her, and it ended up
being her memorial that we werethere for.
It was, it was a huge shock.
And, and, you know, and she hadgone through, it was uterine
cancer that she had gonethrough, like, you know, six
months prior and she had clearscans and the last scan she had

(07:31):
was maybe two months before shehad this.
So it, it came out, came outtanowhere and she just woke up one
day and she couldn't, shecouldn't move her legs.
And she was, you know, 82, 83years old and she.
you know, treatment would'vejust her maybe a couple more
months and would've left hermiserable for the last few

(07:52):
months of her, her life.
So, so she, you know, she wentwith her family around her in,
in the end, her siblings, and,but it, it, it was a big blow to
our, our whole family to lose amatriarch.
So suddenly

Yeah.

And at that same time my best
friend.
My t Scott, someone who I movedto New York with in 1995, I, I
was a theater professional yearsago.
That's what brought me to NewYork originally.
And he was as well, and he hadstruggled with alcohol use abuse

(08:30):
for years and years, and.
He also was HIV positive and itwas around the same time that we
lost my mother-in-law where hetelling me that his, his liver
was failing him, his organs werefailing him, and he wasn't sure
how much time he had left, butthat he was gonna try to be on a

(08:55):
transplant list and, you know,really gonna.
Try to as long as he could, andhe wasn't living in New York at
the time.
He was living in Ohio.
So it was hard for me to judgewhat kind of shape he was in.
We spoke on the phone a lot, buthe didn't really want me to see
how he looked because he wasembarrassed about.

(09:18):
he looked.
He was very vain.
He was a,

Yeah.

he was a gay theater guy, so you
can imagine.

that, yeah.

melissa-mcgovern--she- (09:28):
Exactly.
So we kept in touch and in, inApril of 2022, at this point, he
was, he was going into thehospital regularly to have his,
I forget the name of theprocedure.
Yeah, well, not to had drained,you know, his,

the-sober-butterfly_4_ (09:47):
drained.
Okay.
Okay.

from his

Oh, I see.
Okay.

needed to be

Okay.
Yeah.

build up it.
He, his, his and livers liverand kidneys were not filtering
anything.
So

Was this, was this a related, sorry,
to ask Melissa, but was thisrelated to complications around
heavy drinking?
Or his HIV diagnosis.

know, it was a combination.
It didn't, it didn't help thatthey coincided,

Okay.
Okay.

the medication he was taking for his
HIV needed to be filtered

Yeah, yeah.

on top of that also needed to be
filtered.
And

Yeah.

know, and any kind of you eat, like it
all goes through organs.
So.
It, it just wasn't working.
And by the time he found outthat this was happening, it was
too late.
You know, so when people, it'sreally hard, like it, I, I've

(10:52):
turned into a, a bit of a zealotwith don't wait too long.

Right.

Because it can be too late.
Don't wait till you wake up andsee that your eyes are yellow or
your, your skin started startingto turn yellow because he, he
was a year sober Bef.

Was he

Before

Oh.

yeah before I lost him, he went in,
in, in April of 22 into thehospital to have this regular
procedure and he was admitted tothe emergency room because he
had sepsis and pneumonia and he,he never left the hospital.
He, he passed away in thehospital six days later and he
was 54 years

I'm so sorry.
It's young.
I'm so sorry to hear about yourloss.
So like you have these twoprolific losses of people that
meant so much to you back toback.

Yeah.

And how did you cope?
How did you deal with that?

Well, I didn't start training for a
marathon,

Fair.

You know, no.
You know, when t was in thehospital and I said, I even said
to myself, I was like, do I gosee him?
Do I go and see a person meansso much to me dying of this

(12:21):
horrible condition looks like doI, do I go and witness this with
my own eyes?
Will this Get through to me thatI need, need to make major
changes in my life

Mm-hmm.

because he knew I struggled.
He knew that, that I had stoppeddrinking those four months
before the pandemic, he hadasked me about it in the
pandemic.
I told him no, that I, you know,was kind of back on it again.
I wanted to tell him before hepassed away that I, I felt I was
drinking too much and Icouldn't, couldn't tell anyone.

(12:57):
That I, that I felt like I wasdrinking too much.
when he was in the hospital, I,I, you know, part of me thought
like, will that make it click?

Yeah.

I couldn't go, I couldn't do that
to him.
I know he wouldn't haveappreciated me seeing him in
that state.
And I

Yeah.

don't think that that's like the last
picture that I needed to see myhead of him.
I didn't.
And when he passed it was, itwas a huge blow.
And it didn't kick me into anykind of, let's get sober right
now.
Action.
In fact, it just pushed me intolet's do everything that he

(13:38):
couldn't do because he's deadnow and you're not.
So let's live it up.
Let's.
Drink whatever you want.
Let's eat whatever you want.

Mm-hmm.

Let's do whatever the fuck you want.

Yeah.

that's exactly what I did for next 15
and a half months.
And by the summer of 23, I.
Did not like the way I looked.
I did not, I would see myself inpictures and I hated the image

(14:17):
looking at, looking back at me.
what was even worse than theimage was the thought in my head
of that maybe this was just theway my life was supposed to be.

Oh man, that's hard.

You

That's tough.

this was just, maybe I was meant to
live a mediocre life beingheavier.
A lot of people do, right?

Mm-hmm.

around with a, with a smile on their
face and we, you know, we don'tknow how, what they're carrying
inside.

the-sober-butterfly (14:54):
Absolutely.

maybe I, maybe that was supposed to be
me and, and that was scarierthan the actual image.
And when I started waking up inthe summer of 23, feeling like
wondering if you know what wouldhappen if I didn't get out of
bed that day.

Mm-hmm.

it was definitely time to start
addressing what was going on.
And I knew exactly why I wasfeeling that way.
I knew that alcohol is adepressant.
I've never felt that way before.

Mm.

Never.
I've had

Mm-hmm.

my mom, I've had close friends deal
with depression a lot.

Yeah.

always been the kind of, you know, come
on, what's your problem?

Yeah.
Rally.
Mm-hmm.

got it.
Never got it.
And I was like, holy shit.
This must be it.
This has gotta be it.
I couldn't believe it.
And so when

Yeah.

I made an appointment with my,
with my doctor.
In mid-August I had to see her,I had to have a medication
refilled.
I couldn't like telehealth heranymore.
You know, doctors were like,sorry, you gotta come in and see
me now.

Yeah.

only get away with that stuff for
early in the pandemic.
And I went and saw her and, andshe had, you know, she
remembered my, my stuff.
She remembered that group I waswith and enzymes that had
creeped up.
And, and I don't know what itwas about my doctor, but I
could, I could tell her, I couldtell her that I thought I was

(16:35):
drinking too much.
And she is the kind of doctorthat hurt me.
She didn't judge me.

That's important.

She didn't

Yeah.

me.
She didn't blow it off.
You know, she didn't undermineit.
She really heard me.
She talked about differentoptions.
You know, aa naltrexone, I'dnever even heard of Naltrexone.

And Naltrexone for folks who may be
unaware, is that a medicationused to help people scale back
with their drinking?
Yeah.

It's used to curb your, your cravings
for alcohol.
I had gone in there knowing thatsemaglutide, which are

Mm-hmm.

much in the news

Mm-hmm.

those cravings,

Mm-hmm.

know, 18 months ago.
They weren't as much, but I hadheard something and, and so I
brought that up to her and shesaid, yeah, that's true, but
it's also a diabetes medicationand you wouldn't be able to get
it because you're not diabetic.
Anyway, she said, let's takeyour blood work and see what
happens.
And I knew I was heavy already'cause I,'cause I could see that

(17:50):
on the scale.
I knew my blood pressure wasreally through the roof.
So when I got the blood workback the next day I remember
exactly where I was in the park,you know, ready to go in.
I had resumed working with mysenior lady downtown at her
residence.
My blood panel was justhorrific.

(18:11):
It was really.
Shocking.
I wasn't really shocked by itthough because I knew exactly
what I was doing to my body.

right.

My liver enzymes were.
Through the roof.
And know what, I like to saythis number out loud because
Keeps me accountable.
You know those, those twonumbers, there's an A ST and an
A LT

Mm-hmm.

between five and 40, I think are are the
normal range.
of those numbers with me was 195.

Whoa.

Wait, it

That I'm not, I hope I'm, that's my
actual reaction, like, whoa.
Okay.

the other one was three 11.

And so when your doctor saw that.
What was her response?

Her response was in an email.
These are the highest liverenzymes you've ever had.

Okay,

And

whoa, like what I just said.
Okay.

My cholesterol was also the highest
it's ever been.
My, like I said, my weight, my,my A1C, my glucose.
I was pre-diabetic.
I had been for nine years.
what I went in to get myprescription refilled for I was
veering on the range.
I was at a 6.6.

(19:34):
Diabetic is 7.0 and.
She said, you need to makedrastic behavioral changes.
I swear I'm gonna get thistattooed on my arm one day.
You need to change your diet,right?
Re refine carbs.

(19:54):
Need to get scaled way back.
You need to move your body more.
Try to stop drinking drasticbehavioral changes.
I want to see you again, no lessthan three months.
So I made an appointment.
11 weeks.
I gave myself 11 weeks and I, Isaid to myself, Nadine, I was

(20:18):
like, I'm not going to beanother American statistic of
being put on a statin, put on ablood pressure medication being
com diabetic at age 51 yearsold.

Mm-hmm.

was like, fuck this.

Yeah.

I said, I am not a moderate
drinker.
I never have been.
I'm never gonna be.

Yeah.

I swear to God.
I like, know, if you believe inJesus or whoever, I gave it up

Yeah.

right then and there.

Wow.
That's powerful.
It sounds like you were kind ofscared straight and felt
motivated.
And I kind of wanna backtrack abit to the depression piece
because depression really, onceit sinks its claws into you,
like will you wanna talk about,I.
Control.
Control over how you feel, youremotions, your state of mind,

(21:16):
your physical, like sometimesviscerally in your body not
being able to get up.
And it sounds like a big part ofit that was driving that
depression and that period ofthat fuck it moment.
We've all been there, right?
Where we're just like, fuck it,I'm just gonna do what I want
because life is short.
But it sounds like a big part ofthat was grief and you grieving
extensively for your friend andfor your mother-in-law and.

(21:40):
I think you just get to thatplace of despair where it's
like, well, what's the point?
But fast forward, I think toyour point, like you knew that
the numbers were gonna be high.
You knew that a change had tohappen, but sometimes it's super
motivating to have like, I don'tknow how you feel, but me
personally, Melissa, I'm like,gimme a project.

(22:01):
Like I need a will.
I need a will to like go on.
Sometimes I need something topour into.
If someone.
Doubts me or someone tells me Ican't do something that fuels me
sometimes.
Especially if you're in a lowplace, like you need a reason or
you need something to projectinto the future that you can
work towards, even if it's notlike the true healing that needs

(22:21):
to get done, like you're notthere yet.
Like it gives you something likea goal to work towards.
So it sounds like, I could bewrong, but it sounds like what
I'm hearing from your, yourstory or parts of your story
right now.

Yes.
I

Yeah.
Yeah.
Relatable.

fucking go.

Yeah.

was.
And I, I, I put the pedal to themetal and I started.
Walking, I started going to mybougie gym that I belong to

Equinox.

Yep.

Yeah.

You know it,

Yep.

you know, I paid for this gym that I
would go to like three times amonth to take a, a dance class
and tell myself this limitingbelief that I'm too old to work
out and not have fun when I doit.
Like

You go get your eucalyptus towels,

right.

take advantage of

Yeah.

those amenities.

But I got moving.
I came home and I, I changed mydiet.
I moved out a lot of dairy,refined carbs, all that bullshit
went, I just ate more vegetablesand proteins and just, just the
simple act of moving my body.
I walked every day.
I was up with the sun I mean,there was a time

I love that.

Park.
I, I live right on Riverside,drive

Mm-hmm.

And

Yeah.

in the summer of 23, I took a walk,
tried to, you know, I walked toabout 96th Street and I was so
gassed when I was coming homethat I took a bus home and,

Yeah, we've been there.
We've all been there.

and now, and I think about that all
the time when I'm like, you arenever gonna see me taking a bus
home again.

Mostly when it's cold, I'm like, okay,
forget that.
But yeah,

Well, I

it's like, no, I get it.

I was, I was, I was

Tired.
Yeah.
Gassy.
I, I got you.
I got you.

So I, I really like, I got busy and
I noticed change immediatelywithin three weeks.

That's beautiful.

losing weight I think at six weeks.
You know, I remember it was mybirthday six weeks into it, and
I thought, okay, you know, and Ivisited friends down in Florida.
knew he had a bottle of myfavorite wine in the fridge out
in the garage.
I never once went out in thatgarage and opened up that.
That refrigerator,

I love.

you know, I had to move my daughter
into college.
It was not an easy, you know,stressful things pop up.
I stayed focused.
I planned for the future.
I, I looked forward to somethings.
I put some things on thecalendar.
I went back and saw that doctor11 weeks to the day, and

(25:03):
honestly thought I was gettingozempic on the black market when
she saw me.

Sorry.

It is true story.

Oh my gosh.
She's like, who is your connect?
I I'll not report.
Just tell me the truth.
Oh, that's so funny.

no,

Yeah.

And, and I couldn't wait to give her
my blood.
I was like, here, open my veins,take

Wow.

Liver enzymes were all back to normal.
Those

Whoa.

those super high liver enzymes.
11 weeks, no alcohol.
Cha switching your diet, movingyour body back to normal.
My cholesterol dropped 50points,

Whoa.

zero points.
My, my blood pressure was downmy A1C I was, I was at a 6.6.
It came down to 5.5.
It was below pre-diabetic.

Crazy.
What?

I lost 27 pounds.

That's incredible.
That's incredible.
And this was all healthy.
You weren't over restricting.
You were just living your body.
You stopped drinking.
Okay.
That's insane.
In the best way possible.
Whoa.

And I felt so good.
And I walked out of there and Iwas like, there was, there was
no part of me that wanted topick up a bottle of wine and
celebrate that night.
I just wanted to keep going.
I wanted to keep learning aboutmyself.
I wanted to keep exploringsobriety.
I wanted to find community.

(26:34):
I wanted to just see where this,if this was gonna be my life,

Yeah.
Yeah.

was gonna be my life.

That's incredible.
And at this time, because youmentioned that, you know, going
into that appointment prior tothe 11 week transformation, you
disclosed to your doctor, like,I, I think I have a problem with
alcohol.
And she gave you, he or she gaveyou great resources.
You also confided in your friendwho passed away that, you know,

(27:06):
you also felt like you had aproblem.
Kind of backtracking a littlebit here, but in the pandemic,
you also mentioned both yourkids were home, your husband was
home.
Close quarters.
I'm imagining New York like, youknow, everyone's home
essentially.
So did anyone pick up on, oh, Ithink Mom slash Melissa, she's

(27:27):
drinking quite a bit, or was itsomething that you were hiding
or able to give off this levelof control with those closest to
you?

Yeah, the last answer,

Yeah.
Yeah.

ever.
I would've loved people to sitme down,

Suspect.
Oh my gosh.

It

Really?

Yeah.
And it never happened.
And actually, you know, I havemy own podcast and I interviewed
my husband.
He was my first guest

Oh my God, I have to listen to
that.
Okay, cool.

to ask him

Mm-hmm.

like that,

Yeah.

you close to talking to me?
Was

What did.

going to happen?
And he said he was close to it.

Oh, okay.

you know, I've got a husband that
like.
Lets me have to figure my thingsout.

Yeah.

wanna, it's a fine line between pushing
and pulling.

Mm-hmm.

You know, there, there are people,
there are women like us

Mm-hmm.

their shit together,

Yeah.

right To a fault sometimes.

Yeah.
To a fault, to our own, at ourown detriments or sometimes
wellbeing.
Yeah.

I mean, it can be, it's a really
good thing.
But when then, and I think it'sharder in that circumstance to
then ask for help

Mm-hmm.

because, 'cause then we come off looking
than we appear.

Needy.
I'm not married, but I've beenin relationships and I get
afraid of feeling like I needsomeone to, to help me.
Like I, I'm very self-reliant.
I'm very independent.
I've always been that way.
And so of course like I connectwith people, but I like to feel
like I have a level of control.
And I don't know if that'shealthy, but like I relate to
that.
Yeah.

(29:15):
So.
He was close to, but he didn't.
That's interesting.
And was it part of that, like abyproduct of just the times,
like, because everyone in thepandemic, it felt like

sure.

copious amounts, right?
It wasn't weird, like it's like,oh yeah, like

No.

is the rite of passage.
This is unprecedented.
Like all the things, right?
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I think, I think it was very
normal and we're, we're figuringthat out right now.
You know, like women especially,I mean, you're younger than I
am, but women my age forties andfifties are coming to terms with
the fact that the pandemic wassuper rough for

Yeah.
Yeah.

coffee cup was full of coffee.
Kept getting, you know, change.
You know, the, the coffee keptchanging, you know, wine was
going in the coffee earlier and

Yeah.

in the day.

Yeah, absolutely.
I'd be on, oh, I don't wannaexpose myself too much, but
let's just say I was not waitinguntil 5:00 PM to start drinking
in the pandemic.
You know?
Only because I, I'm a publicservant and I wanna keep my job.
But anyway, yeah, I very muchrelate to that.
Like, yeah, it was, but it wasalso like I.
Maybe celebrated, it is a strongword, but it was very much like

(30:27):
on social media.
I would constantly see funnycontent, which that's the thing
about humor.
I love humor, but likeoftentimes you can, you know,
sway people, disarm'em convincethem, manipulate people through
humor.
And so I would relate heavily tolike different.
Drinking accounts and sober ornot sober, very opposite

(30:48):
influencers who were not sober,who were promoting this idea
that like, these are dark timesand we have to do what we have
to do to get through them andit's okay.
Like to drink out of a Yeti mug.
To your point, you know, wine at9:00 AM and that's toxic.

It, it

it's just.

it is.
And you know, in New York andall of a sudden restaurants were
delivering wine with yourtakeout.
You, you could walk up to a, atakeout and get a, a, people
were drinking on the street likeit was Mardi Gras, you know?

I wasn't actually in the pandemic
for the beginning or New Yorkfor the beginning of the
pandemic.
So going back to that March20th, once school shut down, I
was like, oh, I'm out of herelike that is, I know what's
about to go down.
Like schools are out of sessionfor an undisclosed amount of
time.
So I went to Florida where myfamily lives and.
You can only imagine, I'mtalking Miami here, like in the

(31:42):
pandemic.
What pandemic.
That's how it felt.
So like liquor stores were open,that was considered an essential
place of business or whateverthey were called.
Like I was drinking, I wasdrinking in the pandemic.

Right.

but yeah, it, it's crazy to think
that that was our normal, thatwas our every day.

Yeah.

then on top of that, to add like to
the other stresses of life andnot being able to say goodbye to
people who have passed, whetherit was related to covid or not,
it's, it impacts us on such adeep level beyond just like the
grieving and the loss, like.
Psyche.
It's like, I'm not, okay.
How do I get through this?
But it sounds like you were ableto do some deep healing and it

(32:24):
sounds like you had to have thatmajor wake up call those high
numbers from your doctor to hearthat, to motivate you.
So I'm, I'm just so happy thatyou got there, Melissa, and I'm
sure you didn't stop after the11 weeks.
It sounds like you weremotivated to keep going.

Yeah, I've maintained, you know, I've,
I've maintained, I've gained alittle weight back, but but you
know, when you, your, your facechanges so much when you've, if

Yeah.

to like a bloated red face,

Yeah.

it, it's just amazing.
Like, even, you know, peoplethat remove alcohol, even if
they don't lose weight, theirface changes.

Yes.
That part.

melissa-mcgovern-- (33:01):
inflammation goes down almost instantly.
And, you

Yeah.

melissa-mcgovern--she (33:06):
pictures, old pictures, and, and believe
me, I keep those pictures.
I have a, I have an album on myphone, old drunk pics, and I
keep those pictures.
I want those pictures.
I wanna keep reminders of thosebecause I don't ever wanna go
back to those.
Let me tell you.

I don't ever want to go back.
And I, I like that you broughtup the point because I've, I was
pretty much the same size when Iwas drinking and actually when I
got sober, I.
It was triggering for me in thebeginning because I was craving
so much sugar because as youprobably know, like when you

(33:43):
drink in excess, the way I did,your body metabolizes the
alcohol and it converts intosugar.
So when I stopped drinking, Iwas like, why do I have all of
these cravings for sugar?
And so I started to overdo itand eat junk food and.
The, the weight gain wasactually like very triggering
for me as somebody who hasstruggled with body dysmorphia

(34:04):
and like disordered eating, andI, it almost pushed me back to
drinking because I was like, Icould maintain my weight when I
was drinking.
Like as bad as it was like thatcycle I was in, like I knew how
to maintain my weight and Ididn't like losing that control.
But obviously I recognize withtime everything has evened out.
I've learned to manage, like youcan't have.

(34:26):
Five donuts, like that's okay.
You can't eat a whole pint ofice cream every day.
Like, you know, I've scaled backand adjusted.
But to your earlier point, likethe face, like yes, like I'm not
inflamed, I'm not puffy.
I had.
Really like, this is a humblebrag, but like my whole life I
had amazing skin up until around30, and when I hit 30, I just

(34:50):
experienced the worst breakoutsand I could not figure out what
was happening.
I was so vain too, like I wasjust like.
my pride has been my skin, eventhough I didn't take care of it,
didn't deserve my skin.
I would drink and pass out andhave makeup on and the whole
gambit.
But long story short, that wassomething that I experienced as
a positive effect.
Of quitting drinking.

(35:11):
My skin cleared up as well.
Like I was no longer ingestingpoison.
Right.
So that was something that like,because I could not figure it
out, I was like, I've changednothing in my life.
I'm doing the same thing, andall of a sudden I'm having like
adult acne.
what is that about?
But maybe my body was justtired, Melissa.

Maybe.

was just like, look girl.
Like you can't keep this up.
Like something has gotta give.
So thank you for sharing all ofthat.
It's a good reminder Yes.
That like you.
Your whole, everythingtransforms when you quit
drinking.

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Welcome back to the Sober Butterfly.
So Melissa, you were talking tous about what life looked like
before sobriety, in the midst ofthe pandemic, and you quit
drinking alcohol in August of2023.

Yes.

Since then, it sounds like everything
has changed.
So I would love to hear whathave been some of the most
positive aspects in your lifesince going alcohol free?
I.

Oh, how much time you got Nadine?

We have time, Melissa, get into it.
And I know as well that you'rean alcohol free coach, so I
would also like to see, hearthat evolution, like how you
became a coach.
So in any form, how has sobrietychanged your life, Melissa?

Well, yeah, the coaching is has been
amazing and that was something Iwas thinking about in my first
stint actually.
I remember hearing about itthrough this Naked Mind and I
actually like

Hmm.

with someone over there, but.
And that was right before thepandemic, but I, I wasn't so
comfortable with my sobriety atthat point.
I wasn't ready to pull thetrigger yet with the investment
this time around though, I, Ithought about it almost
immediately.
I was always this kind ofperson, the kind of friend that

(38:40):
people call when they are goingthrough something.
I've just always been that kindof person.

That's a good trait.
You're a good listener.

Yep.
I, I, yeah, exactly.
And you know, I've always beenthis mother figure, this
caretaker, which, you know, andsometimes is like, okay, enough
already, like, you know, andsometimes it's nice to be taken
care of as well,

love too.

right.
But I, I knew that it'ssomething I would be good at.
I know that I can listen and Ican help and I can guide, and
so.
About you know, like sevenmonths into it, my sobriety, I
started a certification processwith a program called Euphoric

(39:25):
af AF with Carolina Ska.
And it was a 10 month processwith, you know, five different
modalities and then a businesstraining on top of it.
And and I've been coaching nowfor about six months and.
I currently have a roster of sixbadass women that I'm working
with, and you know, when theyhit those 30 days, 60 days, 90

(39:49):
days, like it's, there's nothingmore satisfying than to to see
them accomplish that, to seethem bust through those limiting
beliefs that they come to mewith on day one saying, am I
going to have fun withoutdrinking?

Yeah.
Yeah.

remember being there.
I remember being, having those,I never said them out loud, you
know, I, I, I wouldn't have

Yeah.

thought about saying them to, to anyone.
I've said them in my head overand over, so that is a huge part
of my life.
You know, as far as otherthings, I just think the.
The clarity, the connection,the, the peace of mind

Yeah.

that you have with other people.
The, the patience.
I mean, you know, you live inNew York like

Yeah.

I,

not a patient person by default.
I'm not gonna lie to you, but Ifind that I have a lot more,
I'll say, grace to

right?

I've given myself grace.
I can give other people grace,

Yeah.

yes, living in New York and it can be
very stress inducing.
I'll

It can be hard.
It can be tough, but don't youfind that you can more easily
step back and, and wonder somewhat's going on in that person's
life?
That's,

Okay.

you know.

Yes.
That part.
I thought you were gonna saysomething like when you said
patience, I was thinking likeslow Walker in front of me, like
I am like.
Slow walker, especially if youcut off when I'm walking.
Okay, we're on the same page.
Yes.
I,

I'm talking more, I'm talking more
like the, you know, the peoplethat have real, like anger
issues in New York, right?
Like the p Yeah.
People that stop dead in theirtracks right in front of me when
you're walking Full speed.
Yeah.
I, no, that's, that's hard toovercome.

I, I get what you mean.
Yes.
Yeah.
I think in general, like back tothe clarity piece that you
mentioned, like I have so muchmore clarity in all aspects of
my life, but I, I noticed thatbefore, like I used to say I was
an observant person, but like, Iactually don't think I was very
self-aware or aware of others somuch.
And in New York, you kind ofhave blinders

Mm-hmm.

yeah, you're aware of.
Potential risks and threats anddanger, but like for the most
part you're like tunnel vision.
Like, where am I going?
Get out my way now.
I find that I have a lot morelike sense of awareness just
around like what's going onaround me.
So if I'm on the subway, likeI'm looking at people and I, I
think when you had mentionedlike.
Thinking about what someone elsemay be going through.

(42:28):
Because on the outside you cannever really tell.
Like, that is something that Ido a lot of.
Like, I literally, people watch,not in a creepy way, but I'm
like, I pick, pick up on socialcues.

Mm-hmm.

you know, I smile at people.
I don't say hello'cause I'mstill a New Yorker, but like, I,
unless they speak to me, butlike, I think sometimes that can
scare people if you're justlike, hello, hello, hello, how
are you?
But like I definitely, Idefinitely give people eye
contact.
I think I'm seeing people ashuman, right?
And when you said before.
If someone's angry or they'reyelling, like, I, I'm not gonna

(43:01):
lie to you or to anyonelistening, like, I'm not gonna
engage with that person and belike, what's wrong?
How can I help?

No.

I pay attention and I'm like, I
wonder what is going on in thisperson's life, or what they're
thinking or what they're goingthrough.
That would incite such areaction.

Right,

And I don't know if I can help.
Just like this idea of like, I'maware I see you as a human.
Like

right.

like going through the motions.
I'm in the matrix, like get outmy way.
Like I really do see people andengage with people I feel like
more often than I did before.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I, I agree with all of that.
And just you know, in the, in, Imean, in New York, like I used
to be in such a hurry to gethome and sit in my couch

Oh,

drink my wine

yeah.
Wine, of

and, and just not leave my right,
have any excuse to not leave myapartment and.
I find myself getting outta mycomfort zone more often,

yeah.
Sure.

as you age is a thing that is
really, can be reallychallenging.
So sobriety has offered me thatand, and I feel like my motto
is, if it's scares me, it meansI should do it

Ooh.
Yeah.

I'm gonna learn something from it.
It doesn't have to go.
It doesn't have to go well.
And a lot of times it won't.
I'm, I'm always gonna learnsomething from it.
And why not take a risk?
What do you have to lose?
Right?
We're already growing andlearning just by being sober in

(44:37):
a world that's obsessed withalcohol.

yeah.
Truly.

So, just, I, I feel like I'm taking
more risk.
I'm putting myself out theremore.
I'm just trying to embracegrowth and I, I don't think I
would be doing that if I, if Iwas still sitting on my couch
drinking and doom scrolling andwatching TV v.

Of living vicariously through
others and then right there withyou.
And what a great full circlemoment, Melissa, because like.
When you had that low pointwhere you were grieving and you
were in the throes of yourdrinking, you were kind of like,
yeah, like what's the point?
Like, what am I doing this for?
What is the purpose of this?
I'm gonna do what I want andlook at this full circle moment.

(45:20):
Like the progress right now it'slike, yeah, like what do I have
to lose?
But in the best way possible,you're like, I have nothing to
lose outside of my comfort zoneexists.
Growth,

Right.

that's where I wanna tap into.
So like, I, I just love thatbecause I.
What do I have to lose?
Can go very different ways.
Like what do I have to lose?
I don't, is like, I don't give afuck.
It can easily just be like, I'mgonna do whatever, because what
is the point of all of thisversus what do I have to lose?
Like I want to, I want to pushmyself because I wanna grow and
I wanna optimize my life, and Iwanna see what variations of

(45:55):
self I can tap into.
And I'm not afraid to fail.
I don't have to be perfect toeverything because there's a
lesson somewhere along the way.

Yeah, why not?

Why not?
I love that.
so as we kind of wrap up here,can we play a little game?

I love games.

Okay.
I'm experimenting with my game.
So this one's just for you,Melissa.

Great.

Mom, coach, or chaos.

Oh.

Yeah, I, I made this up, so okay if it
doesn't go well.
we won't do it again if itdoesn't work.
Melissa, you, you are my Guineapig for this one.
Okay.
So, mom, coach, or chaos, I'mgonna give you a scenario and
you have to tell me if youhandle it like a mom.
So tapping into it like.
Nurturing, practical side ofyou, coach thinking you're

(46:46):
alcohol free.
Coaching like motivational,tough love approach or pure
chaos.
AKA, maybe like your pre soberself.
Okay, So mom, coach, or chaos.

Okay.

this is your first scenario.
Someone hands you a glass ofchampagne at a wedding and says,
just one won't hurt.
Are you handling it like a mom,a coach, or for chaos?

I would say a coach,

Mm,

you want a response?

yeah.
Give, gimme a response.
I'm like, Melissa, oh my God.
I have this bottle of Domperignon for you.
Or class, it's Let's toast onewon't hurt.

Well, if it's a party and it's do
pier, chances are I'm dressed upand looking.
Very snatched for my 53-year-oldself

Yes.

say so, and I would say, oh, no,
thank you.
I'm a non-drinker.
That's why I look so good.

Ooh, snap.
love that.
Quips, like quick, like littlecomeback lines for people who
are trying to pressure you todrink.
And that's a good one becauseit's not rude to the other
person.
It's like you're owning it.
You're like, yeah, like whywould I ever want to, like, you

(48:10):
think I can look like this if Iwere drinking?
No,

Yep.

that.
That is, I love that.
That's a good one.
Okay.

You could use that.

what'd you say?

You could use that

I

all,

yeah, like

all the time.

this.
So this next situation, goingwith mom, coach, or chaos,
you're out with friends, thedrinks are flowing, and someone
drunk, well, you're notdrinking, but you're out with
friends.
Drinks are flowing, and someonedrunkenly, confesses a wild

(48:44):
secret to you.
How are you handling that?
Are you giving them thepractical, nurturing responses?
Mom, motivational, tough love ascoach or pure chaos.
pre-sober self.

I would say, mom,

Yeah.

yeah.

it in the moment'cause you're
drunk, or would you like waittill the next day or both?

would probably approach it in the
moment and say, come on, comehere for for two seconds.
I know you're, I know you're alittle drunk right now, but I
gotta tell you, we can't do thisright here.
You need to, this can't happenright here.
You're probably not gonnaremember this.
I just need you to know we can'ttalk about this right here.

We can't tell all

I'm gonna

the-sober-butterfly_4 (49:27):
strangers you're having an affair with

Right,

physical therapist.
Like, we're not

right.
I'm gonna text you right now.
You don't know me.
I'm going to, I'm gonna send youa text.
You're gonna read it in themorning.
You're gonna wonder who the hellthis is.
Just trust me.
It's a mom looking out for you.

I love that.
Okay.
That's a good one.
This last one is someone comesup to you, the, someone doesn't
matter, but let's just say thatthey felt the need to confide in
you.
I think I have a drinkingproblem, I don't want to quit
completely.
How would you respond?
What hat are you wearing?
Mom, coach, or chaos.

Oh God, I would, I'm sorry.
I can't give you a chaos answer.
I feel like I haven't,

like lys really

I mean, I feel like maybe the last
one could have been chaos, butI'm not, I haven't been in a
chaos mind in so long.

Yeah.
Where you're just like, yeah,tell all your secrets, tell the
whole group everything aboutyou, every dirty little secret.
No.

I,

that's, that's what you would do to an
enemy, not a friend.

no, that, that last one.
So they come up to me and saythey, they wanna quit drinking,
but they,

Yeah.
But well, they're, they'resaying no.
They're saying I think I have aproblem, but I don't wanna quit.

right.
Oh, that's all Coach.
Yeah.
That would be, yeah.
You know.
Tell me what your greatest fearis around quitting.
You know, that's all limitingbeliefs.
Yeah.
What's holding you back?
What?
What do you think is the worstthing that would happen if you
quit?
You know what, what kind ofwalls would come tumbling down?

(51:00):
Yeah.
It's just, that's where you askjust a barrage of questions of,
you know.
What, what, what, then what now?
How this and that.
Yeah, that's a coach.
That's often how a firstcoaching session looks like.
It, it can look like, yeah.

(51:20):
Like what brings you here?
Why now?
What?
You know?
What, yeah.
What do you wanna, yeah.
That's, that's all coach.

I love that I tell people because
you are a sober coach, like.
Maybe you can give me feedbackand I'm not a coach and like I
don't pretend to be, but ifpeople ask me like, oh, like
what do you think I should do?
Or like, how can I approach thisif I'm thinking about quitting
and I can't or whatever.
I, I often tell people to treatit like a social experiment in
the sense that they don't haveto commit to anything.

(51:50):
Like you can take it day by day,

Mm-hmm.

collect the data, and then discern
whether or not you want tocontinue on this path or you
know, you can always go back towhere you are now.

Yep.

that good advice?

That's great advice.
Get curious about it.

Yeah.
The more you know, the more you

Exactly.
And, and is it, is it adding toyour life?

yeah,

Is it adding to your life or is it
not suiting your life anymore?
Are there too many things thatit's destructive and, you know
what I mean?
And how's it making you feel atthe end of the day?

I think oftentimes we have an
inner

I.

Anytime someone thinks like, do I have a
problem?
Chances are it doesn't need tobe defined.
Right?

Right.

you're asking that question.

It's like, yeah.

you're asking me, like, even if you're
getting curious to your point,like you're looking at sober
accounts, like,

Right,

life look like?
There's something

right.

maybe alcohol is playing, or the
substance is playing too large arole in your life, and you need
to change that.

It's like when you're playing a game,
like, a board game, if you haveto ask yourself, am I cheating?
You're probably cheating.

that's so good.

Okay.

that's.

you, if you have to ask yourself, do
I have a problem?
You probably have a problem.
I,

Yeah, I love that board game analogy.
'cause I'm so competitive, so

you know.

I'll, I'll win at all.
Like, so like I've, I've beenthe person like it doesn't feel
as good to cheat and win.
Is this

No.

And if you've ask, then yeah,

Yeah,

honest.
And same with sobriety if, ordrinking, if you have to ask.
You're not being fully honestwith yourself.
Like, yeah, there's

yeah.

there's something going on there.

It's like moderation.
If you are drawing boundariesaround your drinking, then you
probably have a problem withyour drinking.
Normal people.

have to do that,

No.
Normal.
Exactly.
Normal people don't.
Some people, a lot of peoplejust go out and have a drink and
they don't think about it.
Not me,

how you know, that's

not,

know

not me, girl.

from my first, like I've never been
like, yeah, this is great.
One is good.

Nope.
Not me either.

done one because I've tried to prove
myself, to prove to myself thatI don't have a problem,

Right, right.

Who are you fooling?
Anyway Melissa, this has been soinsightful, so enlightening.
I've ha I've laughed, I'vegotten chills from hearing parts
of your story.
I feel like you just have somuch wealth in terms of
knowledge and I don't know ifyou believe in spirituality or
whatnot, but like, I can feelyour energy from over here and
like when you were speakingabout.

(54:27):
The losses that you experiencedand when you were speaking about
like just that place ofhopelessness, because I've
definitely been there,

Yeah.

been depressed to the the extent of
like, what is the purpose of allof this?
If this is how I feel and it'shard to see past that, but then
you get to the other side likeis so beautiful

Yeah.

would love to just kind of wind down
with this final question foryou.
If you could give any advice toyour younger self your younger
self.
Could be yesterday, it can beMelissa back in 2020 at the
start of the pandemic.
It can be Melissa and at anypoint in your life, but if you
could look back and giveyourself one piece of advice,

(55:08):
what would it be and why?

I think I would say it's gonna
happen.
You're gonna figure it outbecause I always have Nadine, I
always have thought that at somepoint I would remove alcohol
from my life that I knew thatdeep down.
It would not be sustainable forme whether it was forced or I

(55:35):
would want to, or a combination,I really do feel like deep down
that at some point I was goingto live a life without it and I
guess I would say that it isgoing to happen and it's gonna
be okay, and it, it actually,it's gonna be better than Okay.
It's gonna be really beautiful.

That was actually one of my favorite
answers.
Got chills, like I realized.
In this moment, like, it's funny'cause you, you, you tend to
have these like unconscious orsubconscious knowings or inner
knowings.
But when someone says it, if ithasn't come to your conscious
mind yet, like it just somethinginside of you lights up.
And that's what happened to mejust now because I think, to be

(56:16):
honest with you, I always knewfrom the first time I ever tried
alcohol H 13 blacked out that itwas not it.
If I wanted to live, if I wantedto survive, and of course, I
wasn't thinking that long termat that young age, but like I
always knew that like it wasgonna be me or the alcohol.
Like I, I knew that it was notsustainable to

Right.

live the life I was living.
And I, I so grateful that Ichose, I chose this life, this
path I always knew alcohol was aproblem for me.

Same.

insane to like how much we live in
denial or we try to protect ourourselves or protect our
precious mechanism.
For me it was, and just all ofthe things but I always knew, I
always freaking knew.
That's the the crazy part.
Like we always know what weneed,

Yeah.

wanna deal with it or not.

Yeah.

So thank you for sharing that.
Like, I, I needed to hear thattoday.

Yeah.

a good reminder or just awakening
for me,'cause I, that wassomething that was dormant that
I now realize true for

Yeah.
You're welcome.

Thank you the Melissa, and

Oh,

people connect with you?
Can you us know I.

melissa-mcgovern--s (57:37):
absolutely.
You can find me on Instagram atthe sober New Yorker, and that's
also the name of my podcast, theSober New Yorker, and my
website, the Sober New Yorker.
If anyone is interested inconnecting with me there or
hearing more about my coachingor signing up for my newsletter,
that's the place to do it.
And thank you Nadine.

(57:58):
This has been absolutelyincredible.
I love to sit down with people.
It's been a while since I'vechatted about my story, so I
really appreciate you giving methe, the time and the space.

And I feel very grateful to have
heard your story and been ableto share it with my audience as
well.
So guys, make sure you check outthe sober New Yorker.
Everything is plugged below inthe show notes.
And if you ever want someone tocome on the show, I'm here.
I'm in New York, I'm happy tochat

I would love that.

an open book, so whatever you wanna
talk about, I am here.

melissa-mcgovern--sh (58:32):
Excellent.

Alright, thank you Melissa.

Thank you, Nadine.

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