June 27, 2023 • 31 mins
The opposite of control is not chaos, it’s actually flow.
How backwards we have it. We’re taught that control is the ideal. ‘Be rational’, ‘don't bring your emotions to work’, ‘control yourself’. And it’s one of the biggest lies we’ve been fed. Control is a closed system and kills both creativity and flow.
As a culture, we're actually experiencing emotional anorexia. We’ve been shoving so much down for so many years, it’s like trying to hold multiple beach balls underwater at once. All of that energy of holding those balls down has to go somewhere. It either explodes internally - immune disorders, heart, liver or stomach dysfunction, cancer, an “issue in your tissues”; or outwardly all over a coworker, loved one or innocent by-stander. All in the name of control.
So where does flow fit into this?
Stephanie and Maren talk about exactly where flow fits, and how to get to it. Control and people pleasing are two-sides of the same coin and result in the same thing: manipulation. Flow is the opposite. Living in your zone of genius, and empowering those around you to do the same, co-creating instead of manipulating - those are just a few of the things that live beyond ‘control’.
This is Soulful Leadership.
- 00:41 Don't take it personally. It's just business
- 06:09 High standards, or rules to keep you siloed
- 10:16 Co-creation instead of manipulation
- 13:42 People pleasing, a version of control
- 20:20 From fear of manipulation to authenticity
- 29:44 Making the space for the gifts, strengths and genius
- 33:55 Doing less and getting more - because you’re in flow
The leadership that happens within changes the leadership that happens outside. - Maren Oslac
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Maren Oslac (00:04):
In a world where achievements and accolades
motivate us to do more and bemore, we're often left
wondering, is this really it?
Stephanie Allen (00:12):
deep inside, you know, there is more to life,
you're ready to leave behind theold push your way through and
claim the deeper life that'scalling you. That's where we
excel. We're your hosts,Stephanie Allen,
Maren Oslac (00:25):
and Maren Oslac.
Stephanie Allen (00:26):
And this is the soulful leader podcast,
Maren Oslac (00:29):
sit back and relax as we share the shortcuts we've
uncovered to help you make shifthappen.
Welcome back to the soulfulleader podcast, this is Maren
and I'm here with Stephanie. Andoftentimes in business or as
(00:51):
leaders in general, whetherwe're leading our families or
ourselves, we, we take emotionout of it, that's the ideal is
really, don't bring youremotions to work. Don't bring
your emotions to, you know, whenyou're talking to somebody like
(01:11):
you want to shelve that and berational, you want to not go
there. That's something for youin your private time. And
Stephanie and I were talkingabout how, as a culture, we're
actually experiencing somethingyou used the word Stephanie I
think it was emotional anorexia.
Stephanie Allen (01:33):
Yeah, I mean, you hear lots of time, it's
like, it's don't take itpersonally. It's just business
or, you know, and how do you nottake things personally. And I'm
looking at this whole level ofcontrol, emotional anorexia,
because we're trying to controlourselves, we're trying to
(01:54):
control our emotions, we'retrying to control our thoughts.
We're controlling, trying tocontrol our actions and
behaviors. There's so muchcontrol, and yet there's another
part of us that wants control inthe outer world, but we don't
know how to control the innerworld. And so there's all kinds
of different things that we do.
One is that we don't feel wedon't feel and yet we're
(02:15):
starving for it. Because it'slike sitting on the beach ball.
Underneath the water, you push abeach ball down and you sit on
it. Right, right. And that'syour emotional bomb, ready to go
off. And then somebody elsethrows you another beach ball
and someone else throws youanother beach ball, and then
something else happens. And youget to
Maren Oslac (02:34):
hold them all right now of trying to hold them all
under the water and one keepspopping up regardless.
Stephanie Allen (02:41):
Right. And you know, what happens when one pops
up, they all pop up. And so Godlove the soul that that you have
all of them pop up with becausethey get a full on explosion of
everything, or it implodesyourself. Right. And so this
whole, I've been really lookingat this within myself with the
whole thing around control.
Maren Oslac (03:02):
I also think that, you know, when you say it
implodes yourself. Like, I thinka lot of our DIS ease, our
illnesses come from that, right?
Like, what happens to ourbodies, when we're so in
control, that we're holding allof those down, and we're like,
people are patting us on theback of like, Oh, you're so good
(03:24):
at ____. And it's this rational,linear, non emotional being,
like, you know, almostSpockk-like, right. And yet, the
innards are just, I mean, thatthe, all of that energy of
holding those balls down has togo somewhere. So now, there ends
(03:45):
up being some sort of immunedisorder or, you know, heart
issues, or liver, you know,whatever cancer, whatever the
issue is, you know, you love theI love your term issues in your
tissues,
Stephanie Allen (04:04):
right. I mean, you got to feel it to heal it,
right. And so, in that way, it'slike, so what happens? How do we
know that we're blockingemotions? How do we know we're
anorexic? In the way of, ofemotion. And yet, I mean, I love
Brene Brown in the way ofsaying, you know, she's rewiring
the whole story around feelingand being vulnerable, that we
(04:28):
used to think you know, someonewho doesn't cry, someone who
holds it all together in theface of great adversity is
strong. Right. And I love thatBrene Brown is switching it to
like no actually beingvulnerable, telling the truth.
Not holding that beach ballunderneath the water for ages,
(04:49):
but to say, you know, I needhelp. I'm struggling. You know,
Can I Can I just, can you lendme an ear for a minute? I just
need to, I just need to hug or Ineed I need to I need to feel
this.
Maren Oslac (05:02):
You know, what's interesting is that with all of
my training and all of myknowledge and having, you know,
read and watched Brene Brown anddone lots of inner work, there
is still a residual for mearound - that brings up shame,
or that brings up oh, Ishouldn't do it this way. I
(05:22):
should be stronger. All the theitty bitty shitty committee or
the, the, the woulda, couldashoulda's. And I think that it's
like, we don't realize howpowerful societal norms are, and
how much they determine how wereact or even respond in any
(05:46):
given situation. And the layerslike, we think, Oh, I've got
that it's a one and done, orit's a twelve and done.
Stephanie Allen (05:55):
Well, we almost think we get a badge when we are
self sufficient. And we can doit all by ourselves, and we shut
people out and we can stillbarely function in the outer
world. You know, look, looking
Maren Oslac (06:07):
well the world does give us badge for that.
Stephanie Allen (06:08):
Right. But looking like we've got all
together. But internally, we'rea friggin hot mess, right? And I
love the idea of what you weresharing with me the other day,
but a duck, you know, you lookat a duck on the water. And the
duck's just floating looks likeit's just peaceful, calm. And
underneath those little frickinlegs are going 100 miles an
(06:29):
hour. Right? And it's like, howmany times do we feel that way?
Like, we're trying to hold itall together in the outer world.
But internally, we're just africkin hot mess. And where's
the compassion? Where's the lovewith ourselves? And what would
happen, if you actually said tosomebody, I need help, Can you
help me? And God forbid, youknow, they, they can't help you.
(06:52):
Because then you kind of createthis narrative that, see there,
that's why I'm self sufficient.
And I look at that myself,because I'm like, I swing
between radical self sufficiency- I don't need anybody; to
people pleasing - to like, Oh,my God, how can I just like so
that I can people, please, I'mso grateful. I'm so wonderful.
Like, you know, please don'tleave me, abandonment. And I
don't think I'm alone in that.
(07:16):
And I even been, you know,looking at myself, and like, Why
did I open my own business? Why?
Why was it so attractive to me?
I'm like, well, because I havecontrol issues. But I'll be
honest, I have control issues. Ilike the way my towels and my
sheets are folded, becausethat's how they fit in a
cupboard. And nobody can do itas well as I can, well, maybe my
mother, my mother can do it evenbetter than I can. But there's a
(07:37):
few people that can actuallymeet my standards. And I look at
that, because I'm like, is thathigh standards, or that those
walls, are those rules that areactually shutting people out and
not making any space? For myvulnerability for me to feel?
Maren Oslac (07:54):
That's a so I almost wanted to say that again.
Because we look at standards.
And we we're like, You knowwhat, and standards. And I will
say standards are what'simportant, because it's what we
stand on. And at the same time,really examining our standards
to see is it what I'm standingon? Or is it what I'm using to
(08:15):
keep people away? to hold thispersonal safety net that I think
that I need? Because, you know,it's dangerous out there.
Stephanie Allen (08:30):
So I'll give you an example. In the last year
and a half, I have a wonderfuloffice manager, who actually has
been my my interior, designerand decorator and I, I attracted
this wonderful soul literally bygiving, giving a free talk and I
was kind of, you know, do I wantto give a free talk, you know,
(08:50):
I've got the standards that Iyou know, I charge a certain
amount and, but something insideme was saying just go, just be
in service. Don't worry aboutit, you know. And so I went and
this being was actually one ofmy volunteers, he actually, you
know, raised his hands of Yeah,I'll volunteer for that
experiment. And from that, heended up doing a work placement
(09:11):
with me. So I got him for freefor like, I think a month or two
months. And he redesigned mywhole office space. Well, he did
such a good job. You know, onething led to another next thing
you know, he's doing my houseand then we had COVID he
redesigned my whole house duringCOVID was fabulous. Like, of
course COVID ended and then hewas twittling his thumbs going
(09:32):
What do I do now? He goes, youknow Steph, Can I can I help you
out at work? And I'm like, no,no, you're a designer. I don't
want to belittle you by bringingyou in and having you do, you
know, change the sheets and youknow, for my massage practice
or, you know, to me I felt likeI was demeaning him by giving
him things to do that I could domyself or anybody really. I'm
(09:55):
thinking anybody can do that.
Which was so arrogant of me andso much of a way of pushing away
anyway, I let him I let him comein. And my, God is good, because
he came in at exactly the time Ineeded him. And we were just
reflecting over it's been, youknow, a year. And we were kind
of reflecting. And I said, youknow, I don't know how I did it
(10:16):
without you. Now that I'veallowed, And so this brings up
another fear too, that I canhear in people saying, Yeah,
that's right now you allowpeople to help you, And now you
get used to it, And then whathappens if they leave you they
abandon, the abandonment stuff?
Right, the abandonment. Now theabandonment is, so now my
control issues are lessening,but now my abandonment issues
(10:37):
are. So it's like, Oh, my God,what happens If you leave me?
What am I gonna do? You know, sonow I go into people pleasing,
you know, and it's crazy. It'scrazy making. But instead, I'm
like, I was just having areflection going, Wow, I can
now, because I am allowing himtotal and I allow him to
freedom. He actually can, cansee the possibilities. I just
(11:00):
tell him what my goals are. Igo, this is what's the goal,
this is where I'm going. Andthen I let how he unfolds it the
way he unfolds it, withouttrying to control it or
manipulate it or anything.
Maren Oslac (11:11):
So the two of you are working towards your goals
from both of your perspectivesinstead of what we do
traditionally, which is, here'smy goals. And here's what you're
going to do.
Stephanie Allen (11:22):
That's right,
Maren Oslac (11:23):
towards my ends.
Stephanie Allen (11:24):
So I let go of control, and I let him have his
own control. And guess what? Hefreakin does it better than I
could ever imagine it done.
Maren Oslac (11:32):
Well, he's coming from, you're allowing his genius
to show through instead ofsaying, Here's what you're going
to do. And here's how you'regoing to do it. You're like
saying, here's, here's the goal.
And it's our, now it becomes ourgoal, instead of your goal. It's
actually now he's included andempowered and saying, Oh, this
is our goal, how can I bestserve, moving towards that goal?
(11:57):
That's beautiful.
Stephanie Allen (12:01):
It becomes a co creation, yeah, rather than an
manipulation. And so I amconstantly surprised and
delighted on how it unfolds, youknow, the old saying, all paths
lead to Rome, you know, allpaths lead home. So if you set
the home button of saying thisis home, this is where we're
going. And then allowing someoneto use, like you said, their own
(12:24):
genius, finding their own flowtheir own gifts, to unfold it
the way I bet you anyway, it isnot going to be the same path
that I took, or anyone elsewould take. But it still gets us
there. And I didn't have to doanything.
Maren Oslac (12:40):
And it's, it's more beautifully, for multiple
reasons, because you didn't haveto do it. And because it was
somebody else got to shine theirlight. And because now there's
two of you. And it's acooperation instead, a
collaboration instead of acompetition, like so many
Stephanie Allen (13:01):
totally
Maren Oslac (13:02):
there's so many wins in this. in its, I see more
of it happening on our planet.
And like I said before, there'sstill this overlayment of social
norms of the way that thingshave been done. That still keeps
us in, in an old pattern. Andoftentimes in places where we
(13:23):
don't even realize it. Like Isaid for myself, like I like oh,
look at that. I'm still doingthat. I thought I thought I had
been there done that conqueredthat climbed that mountain. And
yet, Oh, hmm. I see that patternagain.
Stephanie Allen (13:42):
So I think you know, we talked about control,
and we start to see the patternsthat are kind of, you know,
consistent in our own way. Ithink there's other ones that we
don't really notice. And so I'mgoing to use this example, like,
you know, I say aboutcontrolling that I have to have
control, I gotta fold the towelsa certain way, I gotta fold the
sheets a certain way. Thingshave to be done a certain way I
have a certain ritual. But arethose, is that really standards?
(14:05):
No, that's more control. Andthat's more a way of shutting
someone out. So now, I letsomebody in. Now the abandonment
issue comes up. And now I moveinto the opposite end of
control. Which is actually stillcontrol by the way.
Maren Oslac (14:21):
It's people pleasing.
Stephanie Allen (14:23):
Totally. And you're thinking well, come on
Steph, like people pleasing.
That's a nice thing to do, likepeople care and you want to you
want to help someone and youmake them, you know, make them
feel like they're loved and allthese different things. And you
have to ask yourself, why? Whyam I people pleasing?
Maren Oslac (14:39):
Well, I have an example of that from my life. I
was talking to someone the otherday and I really wanted to be
heard. And so I went into theconversation. After the
conversation, I realized it wasmanipulative going into the
conversation. I didn't thinkthat it was Because I was
(15:01):
listening to the other person,and then I was responding in the
way that I thought that theywould want me to respond. So
that I would be heard. And whenI say it, when I say it out
loud, I'm like, Oh, my God,that's absolute 100%
manipulation. And the deeperlayer of that, for me was that,
(15:26):
I realized that it kept me froman authentic relationship, it
there was no opportunity for usto actually have an honest
communication, there was no realopportunity for me to be
actually heard because thatperson wasn't able to do it,
(15:47):
because I was in thismanipulative place, like, so.
All of it, all of
Stephanie Allen (15:52):
you had an agenda, you had an agenda.
Maren Oslac (15:55):
And my agenda did not get served. Because I came
from a place of I want this,instead of from a really open
place, like that's the wall, Iactually put up a wall and said
that you can't come any closerthan this. But I want you to
hear all of this stuff backhere, and you guys can't see me.
(16:17):
But so I'm having my hand up.
Like, if I put my hand up 12inches away from me. And I said,
stop right there. And yet,there's my other hand, which is
six inches, it's closer to me,right? It's between my my hand
in my body. And I said, but Iwant you to know this stuff back
here. Well, they can't know thatstuff. They can't hear it,
because I've put a wall upfurther, you know, towards that
(16:38):
person. And so there's no chancethat I was actually going to, to
reach that spot that I reallywanted to reach, which was a
true connection. True connectiondoesn't happen when I put up
that wall. And I thought that Iwas doing a good thing. I was
people pleasing. I was like, I'mgonna please that person.
Stephanie Allen (17:00):
Oh, yeah,
Maren Oslac (17:00):
so I feel heard.
Stephanie Allen (17:02):
Yeah, cuz we're so that, you know, it's better
to give than to receive. And,you know, people pleasing is a
wonderful thing, if and when youknow where it's coming from, and
why. So I love that example oflike, I loved how you said that.
It's like you were trying tolisten, so that you could
actually negate it, and be ableto direct it towards getting
(17:27):
your needs met.
Maren Oslac (17:28):
Right
Stephanie Allen (17:29):
So it sounded like you were listening, it
sounded like she was beingheard, but not really. And that
people pleasing, is actuallyvery passive aggressive. Yes,
extremely passive aggressive, isprobably more controlling and
manipulative than if you werejust overtly controlling and
manipulative. And I've beenreally hurt a lot lately, and
(17:54):
looking at the people pleasingaspect of like, where someone
has actually people pleased me.
Because they loved me, and theycared about it. But was that is
that true? Or were they reallyafraid to also being abandoned?
So I've been, I've been takingthat into myself, and looking at
where I'm doing too.
Maren Oslac (18:13):
And then when, so just to you know, like, as an
aside on that, realizing thatit's not from a place when, when
it happens, it's not to shamethat, if you notice somebody
doing it to you, is not to shamethem. It's really recognizing,
because they have a need, andthey're feeling vulnerable. And
(18:33):
they don't know how to take downthat wall. I didn't know how to
take down that wall. I reallywanted an authentic connection
with this woman. Yeah. And Ithought, the way I went about
it, was going to get it. Andluckily, I'm really glad that I
got the opportunity to see thatlike, Oh, that was ass
backwards. Even though that'swhat I was taught, this is,
(18:55):
these are the conditions that Ilearned. And now I get to
unlearn them.
Stephanie Allen (19:01):
And then we also need to remind ourselves
that nobody can be controlled,or manipulated, without your
consent, without their ownconsent. And, and, and vice
versa. So if someone that ispeople pleasing you, you cannot
be controlled or manipulatedwithout your own consent,
Maren Oslac (19:18):
right. You're like, I want to play the game. Let's
go right.
Stephanie Allen (19:21):
So an example because sometimes people are
genuinely loving and wanting togive to you. And we push it away
because we have been peoplepleasers, from a passive
aggressive place. And so we areunable to say, Oh, thank you for
that compliment. Oh, thank youfor that gift or that
opportunity to help me out. Andyou push it away because you
think they're controlling andmanipulating you, because that's
(19:44):
what you do. When you peopleplease other people. Do you see
how this is like a reverse,Right?
Maren Oslac (19:49):
Well, it's kind of like the example that you used
with your your office manager,like no, I can't accept that.
Because you're better than that.
And I don't want to put you inthat position and, Instead of
allowing him to just do what hewanted to do
Stephanie Allen (20:02):
exactly, it's the same side of the same of, a
different side of the same coin,of like, now when I finally let
go of my control andmanipulation, my overt control
and manipulation to be selfsufficient, I finally let him
in. And he does an amazing job.
I'm realizing how much, how muchhave I pushed away love, and
help and kindness, Because Ithought I was going to be
(20:25):
controlled or manipulated?
Because in my people pleasingworld when I people, please,
perhaps maybe that's what I'mdoing unconsciously. And so it's
made me look and ask thequestion. So how do you know how
do you know if you're peoplepleasing, in a way from
controlling and a manipulationplace? Because you don't want to
be abandoned. Or if you'reactually being in service, How
(20:48):
do you know? How do you know? Sohere's how I, here's what I do.
As I always say, if I totallygave to this person, and they
never said, Thank you, ever.
They never said thank you. Theydidn't even know it was me that
it gave it to them, Would Istill do it? Does it come from
(21:10):
love? If I can completely takethe 'I' out of it, my ego and my
identity, and still be abandonedand still be totally
unrecognized or unheard, Orwhatever it is, Would I still do
it? And if the answer is yes,and it's coming from love and
service, if the answer is no,it's coming from a passive
(21:33):
aggressive place to peopleplease this person so that I can
get my needs met.
Maren Oslac (21:40):
That's awesome. So it takes me in two directions,
one of them is going back to myconversation. And if I, so the
question I could ask myself isif I truly could listen to this
woman. And what she had to sayto me, without, without sharing
(22:03):
what I felt so important, thatwas as, was so important for me
to share. Like, could I do that?
Could I be in that service? Andif I can't, what do I need to do
to feel heard? Like, those aretwo, those are two different
things, which, in my, in my, inmy attempt to be heard, I merged
(22:27):
them. And I don't even think Irealized that.
Stephanie Allen (22:33):
I, you know, I think that's what we all, you
know, it's such a great witnessof being able to slow down
enough to ask yourself thatquestion, right? I say when I'm,
when I'm constantly focused onoutward, getting my needs met,
like I'm trying to trying tofind love. I'm trying to find
acceptance, I want to be heard,I want to be seen. And I'm
(22:54):
looking outside for thosewitnesses, and I keep setting
myself, say, Oh, no one'shearing me, no one's seeing me
no one's loving me I'm unlovableor whatever, no one appreciates
me I do so much. Why am I why ami Well, what happens is, is that
I will literally set myself upto try to be controlling, or to
(23:14):
people please and controlanother. So overtly or
inadvertently, you know, andwhen I noticed that, I have to,
then I, if I can take it inwardand go, What do I need to hear
inside myself? Where am I nothearing somebody? Where do I
need to love myself more? Wheredo I need to love someone else
(23:36):
more? Instead of trying to getit from outside myself, to know
that it's already inside me. Andthe more I look outside, the
more stress and pain andsuffering, the more depression,
more anxiety I will have.
Maren Oslac (23:53):
And the more blaming another. Yeah, she
didn't hear me he didn't dothis. Exactly. He and whatever,
you know, the outer. Yeah. Sothe other, I had said it took me
in two directions. The otherdirection it took me in was what
you, I want to repeat what youhad said earlier is nobody can
manipulate us without ourpermission. So there's this
(24:15):
fear, I know, I feel it, that Iwill be manipulated, like that
someone's gonna get the betterof me, and that empowerment of
nobody can manipulate me unlessI choose to pay to play the
game. And I want to go back toyou know, you asked a question.
So about how I know if I'mmanipulating another if I'm, you
(24:40):
know, like going into somethingas you know, from that very
unconscious manipulative placeto make it more conscious. And
then it made me think aboutlike, okay, so how do I know if
another is trying to manipulateme? And then I had this aha
moment when you were talking of,it doesn't matter if they are or
(25:02):
not. Because that's on theirside, it's about them. That's
about them. So my choice is,like, if someone wants to give
me something from anmanipulative place, I have two
options, I can take it, well, Ihave three options, probably
many, many more. And the threethat popped into my mind is, I
(25:23):
can take it from themanipulative place, place and
play the game, and allow myselfto be manipulated. I can say,
No, thank you, with love andgratitude, and, like, not
shaming the other person,because they don't even, it's
subconscious in me, you know,it's, it's something I don't
even realize, they're not doingit, you know, consciously. So
(25:47):
not not blaming or shaming them.
Or I can accept it from thatplace to from a loving, like,
I'm not stepping intomanipulation, and only you will
know, in any given situation,what what is the non
manipulated, you know, likeresponse to that. It just takes
(26:07):
it takes awareness and the spaceto say, to step in from a loving
place, and you talk about thatof like, what's the most loving
response that I could have tothis particular, You know,
interaction?
Stephanie Allen (26:26):
I, when you talk about presencing, one of
the things that I find helps meis to present that we're all God
in hiding. we're all love andhiding, we're all, you know,
light in hiding, whatever youwhatever word you use it I, I
like using the word God becauseit resonates with me. But it's
like, we're all little godsrunning around, wanting to
(26:47):
unite, wanting to connect,wanting to, to love. And if I
take it off the person, youknow, because really, that
person's intention is theirintention. It's up to me and
whether or not I, I can accepttheir intention, the way their
intention is, and match it, or Ican upgrade my own intention.
(27:11):
And so, you know, somethinghappened recently where someone
did something for me. And I wasso delighted it made me so
happy, I was, it's somethingI've always wanted. And it just,
oh my gosh, it was it wasamazing. And then about a year
or two later, that got broken.
And the person forgot why theydid what they did. Like they
(27:35):
didn't, even when I asked him, Isaid, you know, why did you do
that? And they said, I don'tknow, I can't remember. Like,
Well, I I remembered why Iallowed you to do that and
accepted it. And then after Icontemplated and meditated with
that for a bit, I realized thatthat person did that act for me.
Because they they wanted toplease me. And they did please
(28:00):
me. But where's my, where myaccountability was in that
moment, I didn't ask a deeperquestion. I didn't return to
that person say, what does thismean to you? What is it that is
so sacred to you that you'regiving this to me? What do you
(28:21):
see in me, like why? And notfrom a from a skeptic kind of
place, but from I love you, andI want to get to know you more
place. And I think that's theinquiry, you know, the more we
can inquire within ourselves,the more we can inquire to get
to know and love another. And Ifeel like that was such a great
(28:45):
opportunity. Now that I've seenhow that works out when I don't
inquire back. It's like I justmake assumptions, right? I'm
like, Oh, we're both on the samepage. There we go. Both on the
same page. And we're not, butwe're not. And I think this is
true, whether it's inrelationship, you know, love or
relationship in business orrelate it's like, to really be
(29:05):
clear, why am I doing this?
Whatever this and doing is, youknow, an act of service, or it's
like, why am I doing it? Forwhat reason? What do I want to
get out of it? Or maybe I don'twant to get anything out of it.
Maybe I'm doing it because it'swhat I'm being called to do.
(29:25):
And, and I can completely let goof my ego with this. Because
somebody might never ever knowthat I've done that great act of
service. And am I okay withthat? Right? Because that's the
truth. Like, if I can be totallyokay with it, then it's coming
from a very deep rich placewithin me.
Maren Oslac (29:44):
The next kind of the thing that I think about,
especially in leadership is whenwe can do that with ourselves,
then we can do that with ourteams. So just recently, I was
looking into it partnering withsomebody. And I asked her, you
know, what piece of this, if youcould keep, because it's, it's
(30:11):
her thing here, she's doingsomething, and I was gonna
partner with her in it. And Isaid, if there was one piece of
it that you could keep and do,and continue and like, let go
all of the rest of it so thatlike the piece that you did made
you happy and joyful and like,looking forward to doing it,
what would that be? And herresponse was, Well, I don't want
(30:32):
to step on toes, I can just goaway because I don't want to
step on toes. And I thought,that's what we do, right?
Instead of saying, Yeah, I wouldwant to own this piece, we back
off completely. And this is whatyou were talking about earlier
of like, the walls we put uplike, I don't want to, you know,
(30:52):
and I appreciated the fact thatshe said that. And at the same
time, I really wanted to know,what would make her happy? What
would make her life exciting andjoyful? Is there a piece of it?
And maybe there isn't. And whenwe continue that conversation,
she got kind of lit up aboutthis one, one area, she was
like, Well, I would love to dothis is like, is there anything
(31:14):
else just like not really, as agreat, so if I did all of these
other things, and you did thatthing, You, would that would
excite you? She was like, Yeah,would you be willing to do this?
And yeah, that that would exciteme too, because that piece that
you want to do, I don't want todo it. Right. So because I have
(31:34):
done a certain amount of work oflooking inside of you know, it's
like, really trying to addressthis and catching those little
places like I did the other daywhere I wasn't that present. I
was able to then look atsomebody else and be like, You
know what, I want your gifts andstrengths here. And don't worry
about the rest. If I, if there'ssomething I don't want to do,
(31:54):
I'll look for somebody else todo that. I won't put it back on
you, you know, it makes a itmakes for a very different way
of doing business. And that'swhat the soulful leader is all
about. Right? Yeah, businessdifferently.
Stephanie Allen (32:10):
And, you know, what I'm also hearing you saying
is like there, it takes acertain level of telling the
truth. And that is rising upabove control, and people
pleasing. To tell the truth,like you want to what that woman
said is that, you know, I don'twant to step on anybody's toes,
(32:31):
it's like she automaticallysaid, I don't want to disappoint
anybody, I don't want to hurtanybody. And yet, the most
painful thing we can do is nottell the truth. And a lot of
times we don't know what thetruth is. Because we haven't
given ourselves the time or thespace to do the inquiry to do
the self reflection. What is mytruth?
Maren Oslac (32:51):
Also, people around us don't give us this, like I
gave her the space, I'd startwith that. And I was like,
great, you wouldn't be steppingon my toes
Stephanie Allen (33:00):
because you have given yourself the space,
right, you wouldn't be able togive to her something you
haven't given to yourself, Ithink this is a real key you
cannot give what you do not havehave within you. You cannot give
love if you do not love within,you cannot give time if you
don't give yourself time. Like,you know, when we don't, we
(33:21):
haven't given it to ourselves.
And we haven't practiced it. Itliterally does become passive
aggressive, controlling,manipulative people pleasing.
And it's not the truth of who weare.
Maren Oslac (33:33):
And it's it truly is the new paradigm of
leadership, because theleadership that happens within
changes the leadership thathappens outside. And, you know,
it's like now I'm in thisamazing partnership with this
woman who's going to do all thestuff that I don't want to do,
and she's excited about it.
Stephanie Allen (33:55):
And that is such a great gift. Like, you
know, again, we're talking aboutfinding your own genius of like,
it's important to look inside,who am I? Why am I here? What
are my gifts? What are mystrengths? Where do I feel my
life is just naturally in flow?
and to take the time and theinvestment to actually care
enough about yourself and theunfolding of who you are.
(34:17):
Because the world needs you. Youare a unique being that has like
a thread in a tapestry. Withoutthat thread, there's going to be
something missing. So we can'tkeep looking outside ourselves
for the answers. Everything'sinside. And it is a new paradigm
to move inside and that I wasworking with a client the other
(34:42):
day and she said you know aboutdoing no-thing like can you be
present just without thinkingwithout forcing and fixing and
figuring and all those differentthings. Just presence the space
that you're in. Just breathe,just breathe. Hmm. Because I
believe that if I do no-thing,nothing will get nothing will
(35:02):
get done. And then somebody elsewill be burdened by that.
Because they'll have to pick upthe slack of where I'm not
showing up. And I said, youknow, so interesting cuz she had
come to my house. And as she waswalking up the walkway, she was
noticing all the beautifulflowers that were coming up. And
I said, You know what? I did onething to make that happen, the
rest of it for years, becausethey're all perennials, for
(35:24):
years, guess what they've beendoing their own thing they've
been coming up when they want tocome up and their own timing,
and, and they, you know, Icultivate a little bit, but I do
very small amounts. And yet,there's so much done underneath
the surface so much. And that'sthe paradigm or the metaphor
that we're moving in is like,can you do what's underneath the
(35:47):
surface? Can you do what'shidden inside yourself? So that
what flowers What blossoms isbeautiful, and it will keep on
bearing fruit over and over andover again.
Maren Oslac (36:00):
And you let the wind do its work and you let the
sun do its work and you let therain do its work and you don't
try and control all of it.
Because in nature, everything isaccomplished and nothing is
rushed.
Stephanie Allen (36:13):
I love that.
Maren Oslac (36:14):
I do too. Yeah.
Well, this has been a wonderfulconversation. And part of it was
sparked because we are at thetime of this recording. We're
right in the middle of ourgenius flow workshop. And we
will be doing another one in thenear future. So if you're
interested in diving into,really what is my genius and my
(36:38):
flow? how do I connect to that?
What's the inner work so that Ican have all those outer
results? we would love for youto join us. So the best way to
do that is to get on our emaillist that you can do at the
soulful leader podcast.com. Oryou can find us on social media
(36:58):
and poke at us there. We're onFacebook and on LinkedIn, and
now on YouTube. And that's atthe soulful leaders. So we look
forward to talking to all of younext week and seeing you in our
social media groups. Thanks forjoining us today.
Stephanie Allen (37:22):
And that wraps up another episode of the
soulful leader podcast with yourhosts, Stephanie Allen
Maren Oslac (37:28):
and Maren Oslac.
Thank you for listening. Ifyou'd like to dive deeper, head
over to our website at thesoulful leader podcast.com.
Stephanie Allen (37:39):
Until next time,
In a world where achievements and accolades
motivate us to do more and bemore, we're often left
wondering, is this really it?
Stephanie Allen (00:12):
deep inside, you know, there is more to life,
you're ready to leave behind theold push your way through and
claim the deeper life that'scalling you. That's where we
excel. We're your hosts,Stephanie Allen,
Maren Oslac (00:25):
and Maren Oslac.
Stephanie Allen (00:26):
And this is the soulful leader podcast,
Maren Oslac (00:29):
sit back and relax as we share the shortcuts we've
uncovered to help you make shifthappen.
Welcome back to the soulfulleader podcast, this is Maren
and I'm here with Stephanie. Andoftentimes in business or as
(00:51):
leaders in general, whetherwe're leading our families or
ourselves, we, we take emotionout of it, that's the ideal is
really, don't bring youremotions to work. Don't bring
your emotions to, you know, whenyou're talking to somebody like
(01:11):
you want to shelve that and berational, you want to not go
there. That's something for youin your private time. And
Stephanie and I were talkingabout how, as a culture, we're
actually experiencing somethingyou used the word Stephanie I
think it was emotional anorexia.
Stephanie Allen (01:33):
Yeah, I mean, you hear lots of time, it's
like, it's don't take itpersonally. It's just business
or, you know, and how do you nottake things personally. And I'm
looking at this whole level ofcontrol, emotional anorexia,
because we're trying to controlourselves, we're trying to
(01:54):
control our emotions, we'retrying to control our thoughts.
We're controlling, trying tocontrol our actions and
behaviors. There's so muchcontrol, and yet there's another
part of us that wants control inthe outer world, but we don't
know how to control the innerworld. And so there's all kinds
of different things that we do.
One is that we don't feel wedon't feel and yet we're
(02:15):
starving for it. Because it'slike sitting on the beach ball.
Underneath the water, you push abeach ball down and you sit on
it. Right, right. And that'syour emotional bomb, ready to go
off. And then somebody elsethrows you another beach ball
and someone else throws youanother beach ball, and then
something else happens. And youget to
Maren Oslac (02:34):
hold them all right now of trying to hold them all
under the water and one keepspopping up regardless.
Stephanie Allen (02:41):
Right. And you know, what happens when one pops
up, they all pop up. And so Godlove the soul that that you have
all of them pop up with becausethey get a full on explosion of
everything, or it implodesyourself. Right. And so this
whole, I've been really lookingat this within myself with the
whole thing around control.
Maren Oslac (03:02):
I also think that, you know, when you say it
implodes yourself. Like, I thinka lot of our DIS ease, our
illnesses come from that, right?
Like, what happens to ourbodies, when we're so in
control, that we're holding allof those down, and we're like,
people are patting us on theback of like, Oh, you're so good
(03:24):
at ____. And it's this rational,linear, non emotional being,
like, you know, almostSpockk-like, right. And yet, the
innards are just, I mean, thatthe, all of that energy of
holding those balls down has togo somewhere. So now, there ends
(03:45):
up being some sort of immunedisorder or, you know, heart
issues, or liver, you know,whatever cancer, whatever the
issue is, you know, you love theI love your term issues in your
tissues,
Stephanie Allen (04:04):
right. I mean, you got to feel it to heal it,
right. And so, in that way, it'slike, so what happens? How do we
know that we're blockingemotions? How do we know we're
anorexic? In the way of, ofemotion. And yet, I mean, I love
Brene Brown in the way ofsaying, you know, she's rewiring
the whole story around feelingand being vulnerable, that we
(04:28):
used to think you know, someonewho doesn't cry, someone who
holds it all together in theface of great adversity is
strong. Right. And I love thatBrene Brown is switching it to
like no actually beingvulnerable, telling the truth.
Not holding that beach ballunderneath the water for ages,
(04:49):
but to say, you know, I needhelp. I'm struggling. You know,
Can I Can I just, can you lendme an ear for a minute? I just
need to, I just need to hug or Ineed I need to I need to feel
this.
Maren Oslac (05:02):
You know, what's interesting is that with all of
my training and all of myknowledge and having, you know,
read and watched Brene Brown anddone lots of inner work, there
is still a residual for mearound - that brings up shame,
or that brings up oh, Ishouldn't do it this way. I
(05:22):
should be stronger. All the theitty bitty shitty committee or
the, the, the woulda, couldashoulda's. And I think that it's
like, we don't realize howpowerful societal norms are, and
how much they determine how wereact or even respond in any
(05:46):
given situation. And the layerslike, we think, Oh, I've got
that it's a one and done, orit's a twelve and done.
Stephanie Allen (05:55):
Well, we almost think we get a badge when we are
self sufficient. And we can doit all by ourselves, and we shut
people out and we can stillbarely function in the outer
world. You know, look, looking
Maren Oslac (06:07):
well the world does give us badge for that.
Stephanie Allen (06:08):
Right. But looking like we've got all
together. But internally, we'rea friggin hot mess, right? And I
love the idea of what you weresharing with me the other day,
but a duck, you know, you lookat a duck on the water. And the
duck's just floating looks likeit's just peaceful, calm. And
underneath those little frickinlegs are going 100 miles an
(06:29):
hour. Right? And it's like, howmany times do we feel that way?
Like, we're trying to hold itall together in the outer world.
But internally, we're just africkin hot mess. And where's
the compassion? Where's the lovewith ourselves? And what would
happen, if you actually said tosomebody, I need help, Can you
help me? And God forbid, youknow, they, they can't help you.
(06:52):
Because then you kind of createthis narrative that, see there,
that's why I'm self sufficient.
And I look at that myself,because I'm like, I swing
between radical self sufficiency- I don't need anybody; to
people pleasing - to like, Oh,my God, how can I just like so
that I can people, please, I'mso grateful. I'm so wonderful.
Like, you know, please don'tleave me, abandonment. And I
don't think I'm alone in that.
(07:16):
And I even been, you know,looking at myself, and like, Why
did I open my own business? Why?
Why was it so attractive to me?
I'm like, well, because I havecontrol issues. But I'll be
honest, I have control issues. Ilike the way my towels and my
sheets are folded, becausethat's how they fit in a
cupboard. And nobody can do itas well as I can, well, maybe my
mother, my mother can do it evenbetter than I can. But there's a
(07:37):
few people that can actuallymeet my standards. And I look at
that, because I'm like, is thathigh standards, or that those
walls, are those rules that areactually shutting people out and
not making any space? For myvulnerability for me to feel?
Maren Oslac (07:54):
That's a so I almost wanted to say that again.
Because we look at standards.
And we we're like, You knowwhat, and standards. And I will
say standards are what'simportant, because it's what we
stand on. And at the same time,really examining our standards
to see is it what I'm standingon? Or is it what I'm using to
(08:15):
keep people away? to hold thispersonal safety net that I think
that I need? Because, you know,it's dangerous out there.
Stephanie Allen (08:30):
So I'll give you an example. In the last year
and a half, I have a wonderfuloffice manager, who actually has
been my my interior, designerand decorator and I, I attracted
this wonderful soul literally bygiving, giving a free talk and I
was kind of, you know, do I wantto give a free talk, you know,
(08:50):
I've got the standards that Iyou know, I charge a certain
amount and, but something insideme was saying just go, just be
in service. Don't worry aboutit, you know. And so I went and
this being was actually one ofmy volunteers, he actually, you
know, raised his hands of Yeah,I'll volunteer for that
experiment. And from that, heended up doing a work placement
(09:11):
with me. So I got him for freefor like, I think a month or two
months. And he redesigned mywhole office space. Well, he did
such a good job. You know, onething led to another next thing
you know, he's doing my houseand then we had COVID he
redesigned my whole house duringCOVID was fabulous. Like, of
course COVID ended and then hewas twittling his thumbs going
(09:32):
What do I do now? He goes, youknow Steph, Can I can I help you
out at work? And I'm like, no,no, you're a designer. I don't
want to belittle you by bringingyou in and having you do, you
know, change the sheets and youknow, for my massage practice
or, you know, to me I felt likeI was demeaning him by giving
him things to do that I could domyself or anybody really. I'm
(09:55):
thinking anybody can do that.
Which was so arrogant of me andso much of a way of pushing away
anyway, I let him I let him comein. And my, God is good, because
he came in at exactly the time Ineeded him. And we were just
reflecting over it's been, youknow, a year. And we were kind
of reflecting. And I said, youknow, I don't know how I did it
(10:16):
without you. Now that I'veallowed, And so this brings up
another fear too, that I canhear in people saying, Yeah,
that's right now you allowpeople to help you, And now you
get used to it, And then whathappens if they leave you they
abandon, the abandonment stuff?
Right, the abandonment. Now theabandonment is, so now my
control issues are lessening,but now my abandonment issues
(10:37):
are. So it's like, Oh, my God,what happens If you leave me?
What am I gonna do? You know, sonow I go into people pleasing,
you know, and it's crazy. It'scrazy making. But instead, I'm
like, I was just having areflection going, Wow, I can
now, because I am allowing himtotal and I allow him to
freedom. He actually can, cansee the possibilities. I just
(11:00):
tell him what my goals are. Igo, this is what's the goal,
this is where I'm going. Andthen I let how he unfolds it the
way he unfolds it, withouttrying to control it or
manipulate it or anything.
Maren Oslac (11:11):
So the two of you are working towards your goals
from both of your perspectivesinstead of what we do
traditionally, which is, here'smy goals. And here's what you're
going to do.
Stephanie Allen (11:22):
That's right,
Maren Oslac (11:23):
towards my ends.
Stephanie Allen (11:24):
So I let go of control, and I let him have his
own control. And guess what? Hefreakin does it better than I
could ever imagine it done.
Maren Oslac (11:32):
Well, he's coming from, you're allowing his genius
to show through instead ofsaying, Here's what you're going
to do. And here's how you'regoing to do it. You're like
saying, here's, here's the goal.
And it's our, now it becomes ourgoal, instead of your goal. It's
actually now he's included andempowered and saying, Oh, this
is our goal, how can I bestserve, moving towards that goal?
(11:57):
That's beautiful.
Stephanie Allen (12:01):
It becomes a co creation, yeah, rather than an
manipulation. And so I amconstantly surprised and
delighted on how it unfolds, youknow, the old saying, all paths
lead to Rome, you know, allpaths lead home. So if you set
the home button of saying thisis home, this is where we're
going. And then allowing someoneto use, like you said, their own
(12:24):
genius, finding their own flowtheir own gifts, to unfold it
the way I bet you anyway, it isnot going to be the same path
that I took, or anyone elsewould take. But it still gets us
there. And I didn't have to doanything.
Maren Oslac (12:40):
And it's, it's more beautifully, for multiple
reasons, because you didn't haveto do it. And because it was
somebody else got to shine theirlight. And because now there's
two of you. And it's acooperation instead, a
collaboration instead of acompetition, like so many
Stephanie Allen (13:01):
totally
Maren Oslac (13:02):
there's so many wins in this. in its, I see more
of it happening on our planet.
And like I said before, there'sstill this overlayment of social
norms of the way that thingshave been done. That still keeps
us in, in an old pattern. Andoftentimes in places where we
(13:23):
don't even realize it. Like Isaid for myself, like I like oh,
look at that. I'm still doingthat. I thought I thought I had
been there done that conqueredthat climbed that mountain. And
yet, Oh, hmm. I see that patternagain.
Stephanie Allen (13:42):
So I think you know, we talked about control,
and we start to see the patternsthat are kind of, you know,
consistent in our own way. Ithink there's other ones that we
don't really notice. And so I'mgoing to use this example, like,
you know, I say aboutcontrolling that I have to have
control, I gotta fold the towelsa certain way, I gotta fold the
sheets a certain way. Thingshave to be done a certain way I
have a certain ritual. But arethose, is that really standards?
(14:05):
No, that's more control. Andthat's more a way of shutting
someone out. So now, I letsomebody in. Now the abandonment
issue comes up. And now I moveinto the opposite end of
control. Which is actually stillcontrol by the way.
Maren Oslac (14:21):
It's people pleasing.
Stephanie Allen (14:23):
Totally. And you're thinking well, come on
Steph, like people pleasing.
That's a nice thing to do, likepeople care and you want to you
want to help someone and youmake them, you know, make them
feel like they're loved and allthese different things. And you
have to ask yourself, why? Whyam I people pleasing?
Maren Oslac (14:39):
Well, I have an example of that from my life. I
was talking to someone the otherday and I really wanted to be
heard. And so I went into theconversation. After the
conversation, I realized it wasmanipulative going into the
conversation. I didn't thinkthat it was Because I was
(15:01):
listening to the other person,and then I was responding in the
way that I thought that theywould want me to respond. So
that I would be heard. And whenI say it, when I say it out
loud, I'm like, Oh, my God,that's absolute 100%
manipulation. And the deeperlayer of that, for me was that,
(15:26):
I realized that it kept me froman authentic relationship, it
there was no opportunity for usto actually have an honest
communication, there was no realopportunity for me to be
actually heard because thatperson wasn't able to do it,
(15:47):
because I was in thismanipulative place, like, so.
All of it, all of
Stephanie Allen (15:52):
you had an agenda, you had an agenda.
Maren Oslac (15:55):
And my agenda did not get served. Because I came
from a place of I want this,instead of from a really open
place, like that's the wall, Iactually put up a wall and said
that you can't come any closerthan this. But I want you to
hear all of this stuff backhere, and you guys can't see me.
(16:17):
But so I'm having my hand up.
Like, if I put my hand up 12inches away from me. And I said,
stop right there. And yet,there's my other hand, which is
six inches, it's closer to me,right? It's between my my hand
in my body. And I said, but Iwant you to know this stuff back
here. Well, they can't know thatstuff. They can't hear it,
because I've put a wall upfurther, you know, towards that
(16:38):
person. And so there's no chancethat I was actually going to, to
reach that spot that I reallywanted to reach, which was a
true connection. True connectiondoesn't happen when I put up
that wall. And I thought that Iwas doing a good thing. I was
people pleasing. I was like, I'mgonna please that person.
Stephanie Allen (17:00):
Oh, yeah,
Maren Oslac (17:00):
so I feel heard.
Stephanie Allen (17:02):
Yeah, cuz we're so that, you know, it's better
to give than to receive. And,you know, people pleasing is a
wonderful thing, if and when youknow where it's coming from, and
why. So I love that example oflike, I loved how you said that.
It's like you were trying tolisten, so that you could
actually negate it, and be ableto direct it towards getting
(17:27):
your needs met.
Maren Oslac (17:28):
Right
Stephanie Allen (17:29):
So it sounded like you were listening, it
sounded like she was beingheard, but not really. And that
people pleasing, is actuallyvery passive aggressive. Yes,
extremely passive aggressive, isprobably more controlling and
manipulative than if you werejust overtly controlling and
manipulative. And I've beenreally hurt a lot lately, and
(17:54):
looking at the people pleasingaspect of like, where someone
has actually people pleased me.
Because they loved me, and theycared about it. But was that is
that true? Or were they reallyafraid to also being abandoned?
So I've been, I've been takingthat into myself, and looking at
where I'm doing too.
Maren Oslac (18:13):
And then when, so just to you know, like, as an
aside on that, realizing thatit's not from a place when, when
it happens, it's not to shamethat, if you notice somebody
doing it to you, is not to shamethem. It's really recognizing,
because they have a need, andthey're feeling vulnerable. And
(18:33):
they don't know how to take downthat wall. I didn't know how to
take down that wall. I reallywanted an authentic connection
with this woman. Yeah. And Ithought, the way I went about
it, was going to get it. Andluckily, I'm really glad that I
got the opportunity to see thatlike, Oh, that was ass
backwards. Even though that'swhat I was taught, this is,
(18:55):
these are the conditions that Ilearned. And now I get to
unlearn them.
Stephanie Allen (19:01):
And then we also need to remind ourselves
that nobody can be controlled,or manipulated, without your
consent, without their ownconsent. And, and, and vice
versa. So if someone that ispeople pleasing you, you cannot
be controlled or manipulatedwithout your own consent,
Maren Oslac (19:18):
right. You're like, I want to play the game. Let's
go right.
Stephanie Allen (19:21):
So an example because sometimes people are
genuinely loving and wanting togive to you. And we push it away
because we have been peoplepleasers, from a passive
aggressive place. And so we areunable to say, Oh, thank you for
that compliment. Oh, thank youfor that gift or that
opportunity to help me out. Andyou push it away because you
think they're controlling andmanipulating you, because that's
(19:44):
what you do. When you peopleplease other people. Do you see
how this is like a reverse,Right?
Maren Oslac (19:49):
Well, it's kind of like the example that you used
with your your office manager,like no, I can't accept that.
Because you're better than that.
And I don't want to put you inthat position and, Instead of
allowing him to just do what hewanted to do
Stephanie Allen (20:02):
exactly, it's the same side of the same of, a
different side of the same coin,of like, now when I finally let
go of my control andmanipulation, my overt control
and manipulation to be selfsufficient, I finally let him
in. And he does an amazing job.
I'm realizing how much, how muchhave I pushed away love, and
help and kindness, Because Ithought I was going to be
(20:25):
controlled or manipulated?
Because in my people pleasingworld when I people, please,
perhaps maybe that's what I'mdoing unconsciously. And so it's
made me look and ask thequestion. So how do you know how
do you know if you're peoplepleasing, in a way from
controlling and a manipulationplace? Because you don't want to
be abandoned. Or if you'reactually being in service, How
(20:48):
do you know? How do you know? Sohere's how I, here's what I do.
As I always say, if I totallygave to this person, and they
never said, Thank you, ever.
They never said thank you. Theydidn't even know it was me that
it gave it to them, Would Istill do it? Does it come from
(21:10):
love? If I can completely takethe 'I' out of it, my ego and my
identity, and still be abandonedand still be totally
unrecognized or unheard, Orwhatever it is, Would I still do
it? And if the answer is yes,and it's coming from love and
service, if the answer is no,it's coming from a passive
(21:33):
aggressive place to peopleplease this person so that I can
get my needs met.
Maren Oslac (21:40):
That's awesome. So it takes me in two directions,
one of them is going back to myconversation. And if I, so the
question I could ask myself isif I truly could listen to this
woman. And what she had to sayto me, without, without sharing
(22:03):
what I felt so important, thatwas as, was so important for me
to share. Like, could I do that?
Could I be in that service? Andif I can't, what do I need to do
to feel heard? Like, those aretwo, those are two different
things, which, in my, in my, inmy attempt to be heard, I merged
(22:27):
them. And I don't even think Irealized that.
Stephanie Allen (22:33):
I, you know, I think that's what we all, you
know, it's such a great witnessof being able to slow down
enough to ask yourself thatquestion, right? I say when I'm,
when I'm constantly focused onoutward, getting my needs met,
like I'm trying to trying tofind love. I'm trying to find
acceptance, I want to be heard,I want to be seen. And I'm
(22:54):
looking outside for thosewitnesses, and I keep setting
myself, say, Oh, no one'shearing me, no one's seeing me
no one's loving me I'm unlovableor whatever, no one appreciates
me I do so much. Why am I why ami Well, what happens is, is that
I will literally set myself upto try to be controlling, or to
(23:14):
people please and controlanother. So overtly or
inadvertently, you know, andwhen I noticed that, I have to,
then I, if I can take it inwardand go, What do I need to hear
inside myself? Where am I nothearing somebody? Where do I
need to love myself more? Wheredo I need to love someone else
(23:36):
more? Instead of trying to getit from outside myself, to know
that it's already inside me. Andthe more I look outside, the
more stress and pain andsuffering, the more depression,
more anxiety I will have.
Maren Oslac (23:53):
And the more blaming another. Yeah, she
didn't hear me he didn't dothis. Exactly. He and whatever,
you know, the outer. Yeah. Sothe other, I had said it took me
in two directions. The otherdirection it took me in was what
you, I want to repeat what youhad said earlier is nobody can
manipulate us without ourpermission. So there's this
(24:15):
fear, I know, I feel it, that Iwill be manipulated, like that
someone's gonna get the betterof me, and that empowerment of
nobody can manipulate me unlessI choose to pay to play the
game. And I want to go back toyou know, you asked a question.
So about how I know if I'mmanipulating another if I'm, you
(24:40):
know, like going into somethingas you know, from that very
unconscious manipulative placeto make it more conscious. And
then it made me think aboutlike, okay, so how do I know if
another is trying to manipulateme? And then I had this aha
moment when you were talking of,it doesn't matter if they are or
(25:02):
not. Because that's on theirside, it's about them. That's
about them. So my choice is,like, if someone wants to give
me something from anmanipulative place, I have two
options, I can take it, well, Ihave three options, probably
many, many more. And the threethat popped into my mind is, I
(25:23):
can take it from themanipulative place, place and
play the game, and allow myselfto be manipulated. I can say,
No, thank you, with love andgratitude, and, like, not
shaming the other person,because they don't even, it's
subconscious in me, you know,it's, it's something I don't
even realize, they're not doingit, you know, consciously. So
(25:47):
not not blaming or shaming them.
Or I can accept it from thatplace to from a loving, like,
I'm not stepping intomanipulation, and only you will
know, in any given situation,what what is the non
manipulated, you know, likeresponse to that. It just takes
(26:07):
it takes awareness and the spaceto say, to step in from a loving
place, and you talk about thatof like, what's the most loving
response that I could have tothis particular, You know,
interaction?
Stephanie Allen (26:26):
I, when you talk about presencing, one of
the things that I find helps meis to present that we're all God
in hiding. we're all love andhiding, we're all, you know,
light in hiding, whatever youwhatever word you use it I, I
like using the word God becauseit resonates with me. But it's
like, we're all little godsrunning around, wanting to
(26:47):
unite, wanting to connect,wanting to, to love. And if I
take it off the person, youknow, because really, that
person's intention is theirintention. It's up to me and
whether or not I, I can accepttheir intention, the way their
intention is, and match it, or Ican upgrade my own intention.
(27:11):
And so, you know, somethinghappened recently where someone
did something for me. And I wasso delighted it made me so
happy, I was, it's somethingI've always wanted. And it just,
oh my gosh, it was it wasamazing. And then about a year
or two later, that got broken.
And the person forgot why theydid what they did. Like they
(27:35):
didn't, even when I asked him, Isaid, you know, why did you do
that? And they said, I don'tknow, I can't remember. Like,
Well, I I remembered why Iallowed you to do that and
accepted it. And then after Icontemplated and meditated with
that for a bit, I realized thatthat person did that act for me.
Because they they wanted toplease me. And they did please
(28:00):
me. But where's my, where myaccountability was in that
moment, I didn't ask a deeperquestion. I didn't return to
that person say, what does thismean to you? What is it that is
so sacred to you that you'regiving this to me? What do you
(28:21):
see in me, like why? And notfrom a from a skeptic kind of
place, but from I love you, andI want to get to know you more
place. And I think that's theinquiry, you know, the more we
can inquire within ourselves,the more we can inquire to get
to know and love another. And Ifeel like that was such a great
(28:45):
opportunity. Now that I've seenhow that works out when I don't
inquire back. It's like I justmake assumptions, right? I'm
like, Oh, we're both on the samepage. There we go. Both on the
same page. And we're not, butwe're not. And I think this is
true, whether it's inrelationship, you know, love or
relationship in business orrelate it's like, to really be
(29:05):
clear, why am I doing this?
Whatever this and doing is, youknow, an act of service, or it's
like, why am I doing it? Forwhat reason? What do I want to
get out of it? Or maybe I don'twant to get anything out of it.
Maybe I'm doing it because it'swhat I'm being called to do.
(29:25):
And, and I can completely let goof my ego with this. Because
somebody might never ever knowthat I've done that great act of
service. And am I okay withthat? Right? Because that's the
truth. Like, if I can be totallyokay with it, then it's coming
from a very deep rich placewithin me.
Maren Oslac (29:44):
The next kind of the thing that I think about,
especially in leadership is whenwe can do that with ourselves,
then we can do that with ourteams. So just recently, I was
looking into it partnering withsomebody. And I asked her, you
know, what piece of this, if youcould keep, because it's, it's
(30:11):
her thing here, she's doingsomething, and I was gonna
partner with her in it. And Isaid, if there was one piece of
it that you could keep and do,and continue and like, let go
all of the rest of it so thatlike the piece that you did made
you happy and joyful and like,looking forward to doing it,
what would that be? And herresponse was, Well, I don't want
(30:32):
to step on toes, I can just goaway because I don't want to
step on toes. And I thought,that's what we do, right?
Instead of saying, Yeah, I wouldwant to own this piece, we back
off completely. And this is whatyou were talking about earlier
of like, the walls we put uplike, I don't want to, you know,
(30:52):
and I appreciated the fact thatshe said that. And at the same
time, I really wanted to know,what would make her happy? What
would make her life exciting andjoyful? Is there a piece of it?
And maybe there isn't. And whenwe continue that conversation,
she got kind of lit up aboutthis one, one area, she was
like, Well, I would love to dothis is like, is there anything
(31:14):
else just like not really, as agreat, so if I did all of these
other things, and you did thatthing, You, would that would
excite you? She was like, Yeah,would you be willing to do this?
And yeah, that that would exciteme too, because that piece that
you want to do, I don't want todo it. Right. So because I have
(31:34):
done a certain amount of work oflooking inside of you know, it's
like, really trying to addressthis and catching those little
places like I did the other daywhere I wasn't that present. I
was able to then look atsomebody else and be like, You
know what, I want your gifts andstrengths here. And don't worry
about the rest. If I, if there'ssomething I don't want to do,
(31:54):
I'll look for somebody else todo that. I won't put it back on
you, you know, it makes a itmakes for a very different way
of doing business. And that'swhat the soulful leader is all
about. Right? Yeah, businessdifferently.
Stephanie Allen (32:10):
And, you know, what I'm also hearing you saying
is like there, it takes acertain level of telling the
truth. And that is rising upabove control, and people
pleasing. To tell the truth,like you want to what that woman
said is that, you know, I don'twant to step on anybody's toes,
(32:31):
it's like she automaticallysaid, I don't want to disappoint
anybody, I don't want to hurtanybody. And yet, the most
painful thing we can do is nottell the truth. And a lot of
times we don't know what thetruth is. Because we haven't
given ourselves the time or thespace to do the inquiry to do
the self reflection. What is mytruth?
Maren Oslac (32:51):
Also, people around us don't give us this, like I
gave her the space, I'd startwith that. And I was like,
great, you wouldn't be steppingon my toes
Stephanie Allen (33:00):
because you have given yourself the space,
right, you wouldn't be able togive to her something you
haven't given to yourself, Ithink this is a real key you
cannot give what you do not havehave within you. You cannot give
love if you do not love within,you cannot give time if you
don't give yourself time. Like,you know, when we don't, we
(33:21):
haven't given it to ourselves.
And we haven't practiced it. Itliterally does become passive
aggressive, controlling,manipulative people pleasing.
And it's not the truth of who weare.
Maren Oslac (33:33):
And it's it truly is the new paradigm of
leadership, because theleadership that happens within
changes the leadership thathappens outside. And, you know,
it's like now I'm in thisamazing partnership with this
woman who's going to do all thestuff that I don't want to do,
and she's excited about it.
Stephanie Allen (33:55):
And that is such a great gift. Like, you
know, again, we're talking aboutfinding your own genius of like,
it's important to look inside,who am I? Why am I here? What
are my gifts? What are mystrengths? Where do I feel my
life is just naturally in flow?
and to take the time and theinvestment to actually care
enough about yourself and theunfolding of who you are.
(34:17):
Because the world needs you. Youare a unique being that has like
a thread in a tapestry. Withoutthat thread, there's going to be
something missing. So we can'tkeep looking outside ourselves
for the answers. Everything'sinside. And it is a new paradigm
to move inside and that I wasworking with a client the other
(34:42):
day and she said you know aboutdoing no-thing like can you be
present just without thinkingwithout forcing and fixing and
figuring and all those differentthings. Just presence the space
that you're in. Just breathe,just breathe. Hmm. Because I
believe that if I do no-thing,nothing will get nothing will
(35:02):
get done. And then somebody elsewill be burdened by that.
Because they'll have to pick upthe slack of where I'm not
showing up. And I said, youknow, so interesting cuz she had
come to my house. And as she waswalking up the walkway, she was
noticing all the beautifulflowers that were coming up. And
I said, You know what? I did onething to make that happen, the
rest of it for years, becausethey're all perennials, for
(35:24):
years, guess what they've beendoing their own thing they've
been coming up when they want tocome up and their own timing,
and, and they, you know, Icultivate a little bit, but I do
very small amounts. And yet,there's so much done underneath
the surface so much. And that'sthe paradigm or the metaphor
that we're moving in is like,can you do what's underneath the
(35:47):
surface? Can you do what'shidden inside yourself? So that
what flowers What blossoms isbeautiful, and it will keep on
bearing fruit over and over andover again.
Maren Oslac (36:00):
And you let the wind do its work and you let the
sun do its work and you let therain do its work and you don't
try and control all of it.
Because in nature, everything isaccomplished and nothing is
rushed.
Stephanie Allen (36:13):
I love that.
Maren Oslac (36:14):
I do too. Yeah.
Well, this has been a wonderfulconversation. And part of it was
sparked because we are at thetime of this recording. We're
right in the middle of ourgenius flow workshop. And we
will be doing another one in thenear future. So if you're
interested in diving into,really what is my genius and my
(36:38):
flow? how do I connect to that?
What's the inner work so that Ican have all those outer
results? we would love for youto join us. So the best way to
do that is to get on our emaillist that you can do at the
soulful leader podcast.com. Oryou can find us on social media
(36:58):
and poke at us there. We're onFacebook and on LinkedIn, and
now on YouTube. And that's atthe soulful leaders. So we look
forward to talking to all of younext week and seeing you in our
social media groups. Thanks forjoining us today.
Stephanie Allen (37:22):
And that wraps up another episode of the
soulful leader podcast with yourhosts, Stephanie Allen
Maren Oslac (37:28):
and Maren Oslac.
Thank you for listening. Ifyou'd like to dive deeper, head
over to our website at thesoulful leader podcast.com.
Stephanie Allen (37:39):
Until next time,
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