A Better F***ing Party than White Supremacy & Evangeline Weiss

Alternative title: Cancel Culture and White Women & Evangeline Weiss

What does it mean to be a White woman in the US today without supremacy or shame?

What does it mean to hold cancel culture as White supremacist and shame culture?

Loran and Jenny sit down with Evangeline Weiss, founder of Beyond Conflict & co-founder of We Are Finding Freedom to talk about how cancel culture replicates White supremacy culture and the intersection of race and gender as it applies to White women.

Questions include:

• How do we hold the evolving nature of the human experience amidst accountability (and accountability abuse)?
• How do we get more White people to center love in our work?
• What does forgiveness and grace look like in our work of supporting other White people?
• How do we make sense of the intersection of gender and race?
• Do White women have any inherent qualities or attributes?
• What, if anything, do you want to interrupt & expand within White women?
• How do we find other White people to unpack racial equity with?
• What's the role of fallibility in our work?

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Evangeline Weiss Projects & Contact Info

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linktree for Finding Freedom: https://linktr.ee/wearefindingfreedom.org

Finding Freedom is a 5 part online workshop series for white women and gender queer people to examine our internalized dominance and collusion with racism. Upcoming workshops can be found here. @wearefindingfreedom on instagram

We still have spots available for Seeing the Forest: Reckoning with Our Roots for a Racially Just Future. If there is one thing we know, this work is meant to be done in relationship with others. Here is the Registration link:https:/done/bit.ly/StF2022.

Linktree for Evangeline: https://linktr.ee/evangelineweis

Monthly free, white anti-racist space. The caucus is a drop-in space (no need to tell us you're coming or not) and we ask you to RSVP 1 time, so we can make sure you're on the calendar invite. Next Session is April 22nd, 12:00-1:30pm ET. 

Information about coaching for white people, organizational change and other offerings can be found on Evangeline's website, www.gobeyondconflict.com

Sign up for my monthly Postcard from North Carolina by clicking here and follow her on instagram, @evangelineweis

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At the beginning of the episode Loran and Jenny talk about White people using "Karen" on other White people. Want to explore the use of Karens in the cross-cultural context? Check out this bonus mini-sode with Evangeline.

Jenny references a podcast episode that Evangeline was a guest speaker on. You may find it here. (

Episode Transcript

Jenny (00:00):
Should we talk about Karen's.
Do we talk about Karen?

Loran (00:04):
I mean, we can.
Yeah, we've mentioned them aslike a thing, but I don't know
if we've really gone into likethe dissection of the Karen.
To me, the Karen, I don'tknow if I've said this yet.
I've always felt a veryuneasy sense around Karen's.

(00:26):
Um, for two reasons, one, I think theexamples that we have in the media
of like Barbecue Becky or the, likethe Karen haircut, someone wanting to
speak to the manager, I like get it.
Some of these things arelike really frustrating.
They're humiliating that they takeaway our humanity as White people.

(00:49):
Um, and I get a moral injury whenI see them doing awful things.
And I think there's this other piece that.
I think if White men were doing it, likespeaking to the manager, which they do all
the time, calling the police, they do allthe time, but we like mock women because

(01:15):
there's this like little, like just asprinkling of misogyny in there, which
just add a little bit of misogyny in here.

Jenny (01:21):
I just imagine Julia Child being like, "sprinkle the
misogyny!"

Loran (01:30):
Yeah, I cannot help.
But when someone brings in or talksabout Karens, Just like a little bit
of misogyny and just like creepsout of their pores and into the
table or under the conversation.
And it just makes me feel a littleawkward because we don't talk about women
and White women the same that we do.
White men.

Jenny (01:51):
No

Loran (01:52):
never.
And so that's always, maybea little uncomfortable.
Yes.
They're doing and havedone some shitty things.
And let's also not get out of hand here.

Jenny (02:01):
The Karen thing first, my first thought, when I first heard the Kar-, when
I first saw that the Karen was becoming athing, I was like, "oh, no, poor everyone
named Karen," just anybody named Karen.
Um, but my second thought waslike, "okay, I'm not that.
I'm not a Karen.
And if everything I have to do fromthis moment forward has to prove

(02:23):
that I'm not a Karen" and I, right.
And I've definitely spokento the manager before

Loran (02:30):
I have to.
And so for me, I think there'slike an additional layer that
Evangeline touches in her work about:
"Yes.
We are also experiencing discriminationon a daily, but we're not having to
experience the things that folks of Colorare having to experience at the same time.

(02:55):
And so we need to make sure thatwe're like tending to our own needs
and wounds and hurts and harms.
And there are these other waysthat we can harm folks to."

Jenny (03:07):
Right.
Just because we're a, um, victim"victim" seems like a weird word, but,
um, just because we feel how that feelsand knowing that it's like we say,
at the beginning of every episode,you know, hurt people, hurt people.
Yeah.

(03:28):
And that's easy to turn aroundto do when you're hurting.
Well, yeah,

Loran (03:31):
also I think I just want to like name that the tagline is hurt.
People can hurt people because theythink what Evangeline is doing, is
trying to support people to moveinto the "can" territory rather
than just like, "oh, you're hurting.
So you're inevitably gonnahurt this other person" because

Jenny (03:51):
no.

Loran (03:51):
Yeah.
I think what you just did is like, youjust showed exactly what, like the liberal
left movement is like, "oh no, you'rethis woman you will always be hurt."
"Oh, you're White.
You'll always be racist."
Right.
That's like the, always theinevitability of your experience.

Jenny (04:06):
Yeah.
And it's not like the, itdoesn't have to be that way.
It doesn't have to be that way.

Loran (04:11):
And so like, I totally get what you said because I sometimes
get tripped up with that too.
Right.

Jenny (04:15):
Because yeah, I think I've also heard it so much without the
"can", like just in the world.
Like, I've heard that phrase before,but in my head it's always "hurt.
People, hurt people."
Not "hurt people can hurt people."

Loran (04:31):
Right.
It goes back to redemption.
It goes back into reformation.
Can you do, do humans havethe ability to change?
And that "can," to me makesthe world of difference.

Jenny (04:41):
Yeah.
And I'm starting to get there with you.
I still think that you have to want to,and some people, I believe strongly that
some people don't have the, "I want to,"and I'm trying to get to the place where
I'm like, okay, let's, you know, butpeople have to prove to you that they
don't want to like give them that chance.

Loran (05:01):
I have had to walk away from a really beautiful relationships because
people couldn't imagine a can that's

Jenny (05:08):
painful.
I'm sorry.

Loran (05:10):
It sucks.
And I have to hope that oneday they can see the can.
That one day they will see the "can."

Jenny (05:16):
Right.
And you're not going to cancelthem because right now, because
right now they can't see the can.
I'm not going to

Loran (05:23):
act all righteous.
I am not going to cancel someone elsebecause they're on a different journey
or because our journeys aren't lining up.
Right.
It doesn't make sense.

Jenny (05:35):
Oh, so you don't know the complexities of that person's life.
Right?
Like we know people really well, but wedon't know every eexperience they've had.
So

Loran (05:45):
right.
And maybe they have like a whole bunchof harms that they are still working
with and trying to mend and heal andwork through and live with and manage.
But yeah, when, whenwe're ready, we're ready.
But oh weird.
We're just like talking about likecancel culture and White women
simultaneously while preparing for this.

(06:06):
Yeah.
Oh my God.
Oh my God "can" can-cel, so, okay.
Can cancel.
Cancel culture is about the inabilityto believe that people can change.
And whether that's whether thosepeople are us, that we don't believe
that we have the capacity to change,or we believe that other people do

(06:27):
not have the capacity to change oof!
Can can-cel.
Um, I think we're at, uh wewent over by three minutes.
Oh my God.
Shut it down.

Jenny (07:01):
hello and welcome to The Spillway podcast.
I'm Jenny

Loran (07:05):
and I'm Loran.

Jenny (07:06):
We believe three things hurt.
People can hurt people.

Loran (07:10):
White
people are hurting

Jenny (07:12):
And are healing is possible.

Loran (07:14):
This is a podcast devoted to understanding the complex nature of
living as White people in America,

Jenny (07:20):
Without
supremacy or shame.
A few months ago, Loran started anorganization, The Spillway around
supporting White people to work throughperpetrator induced, traumatic stress
or PITS, and intergenerational trauma.
Loran offers this service with theacknowledgement that healing work is
merely one mechanism within a largernetwork required to sustain our collective

(07:44):
movement towards racial justice.
Loran seeks to grow the servicesavailable rather than redistribute,
where we put our efforts and fundingto get this message out there.
Loran asked one of the most compassionate,ferociously tender, hilarious and
incredibly smart humans they know tojoin them on this podcast journey: me.

(08:09):
Loran and I come from similaryet separate backgrounds.
Importantly, we offer incrediblydifferent perspectives sometimes
just by who we are as people.
And other times, by thedifferent identities we hold,

Loran (08:24):
we are committed to building compassion, understanding, empathy,
and patience into the present andfuture of Whiteness and White culture.
We cannot change the past, butwe can change the future through
the actions that we take today.

Jenny (08:40):
We seek to embody the work of James Baldwin, Sonya Renee
Taylor, Kazu Haga, Resmaa Menakem,Kai Chang Thom, and countless
others asking for White people to.
In so many words, get our shit together.
Since starting The Spillway, there's beenconsistent feedback sometimes within the

(09:01):
same space that White people are engaging.
This work with closed hearts and minds,

Loran (09:07):
and this work can be difficult and it can be beautiful.
It's an exercise in vulnerabilityand un- learning perfectionism with
real-world consequences, all of thisin the age of 7-second judgements, we
hope that The Spillway and our livingin it can give others the courage
that's needed to join us in this work.

Jenny (09:26):
We know that attempting to be vulnerable and consenting to learn in
public is incredibly terrifying work.
And yet we have to start somewhere.
Conversations of race and racism aren'tgoing away anytime soon, given our
incredibly different places in the world,we're trying to create a middle ground
where White people can get togetherto talk and create action around the

(09:48):
paradox of being White in the US, wherewe are simultaneously the perpetrators
and the victims of race and racism.

Loran (09:56):
And so here we are two White people committing to the work of
individual and collective healingaround race and racism for White people.
Healing ourselves is no one'sresponsibility, but our own.
Let's heal together and grow to stop theimpacts of race and racism in the lives
of people of Color and our lives as well.

Jenny (10:16):
Welcome to our podcast.
AS a White Jewish queer anti-racist,Evangeline has been ruining Thanksgiving
since 1977, a social justice changeinstigator with a twinkle in her eye.

(10:41):
Evangeline has over 20 years of communitybuilding and organizational development
experience working with clients tointegrate racial and gender justice
into their missions and activities.
Evangeline facilitates leadershipdevelopment programs to stain organizers
and leaders on a path towards greaterwholeness, intentionality and purpose.

(11:03):
After earning a master's degree ineducational policy studies, Evangeline
spent the first 10 years of hercareer managing volunteers and staff
in HIV/AIDS service organizations.
After moving to North Carolina in2002, she has worked in the LGBTQ
movement to bring more understandingof the need to center racial justice.

(11:27):
Currently she facilitatestransformational change for
organizations and individuals throughher consulting practice Beyond Conflict.
Evangeline is a poet, wife andmother artist, and justice worker.
She is extremely grateful to callGreensboro North Carolina home.

Loran (11:46):
In 2015, Jenny, I don't know if you remember that I went to a Creating
Change conference out in Denver.
And the only reason that wewent to this conference as well.
So I'm from Colorado and my parentslive like two hours south of Denver.
And so I was like, oh, I can go tothis conference and I can go like,
hang out with my parents for a second.
And like two birds, onestone, like, that'd be great.

(12:06):
And so I go to this conference and thevery first day before the conference
even begins, there's a day long racialjustice Institute at the beginning of
this conference, Creating Change, whichis like very specifically an LGBTQ
national conference on creating a nationalmovement of change, uh, for the good.
And it was the first time I wasever invited into an affinity space.

(12:32):
And so it was bizarre.
And that I had never been told that Whitepeople should talk to other White people.
So it wasn't until Iwas like 27 years old.
And it was told that White people shouldtalk about the White people about racism.
And so here I was in this space and incomes, the facilitator, who we are joined

(12:53):
with today and my world just kind of likeupended of, "oh, wow, this is the work.
This is how we holdeach other accountable.
This is how we build love.
This is how we build communication.
This is how we build like safety."
And even that's in like air quotes,but it became this like other world

(13:14):
that I was never even aware of withinracial justice or just even within
like connecting to my own humanity.
And so I've always held EvangelineWeiss, very close to my heart.
Um, as someone who, who likeshowed me the road, like I had
the, I had the keys, I had the car.

(13:35):
And then someone waslike, "here's this map?
Like, and I don't knowwhere all of the pieces are.
I'm not a cartographer, but likehere's generally an understanding of
the road" and I just like went for it.
And so I'm starting, The Spillwayjust kept thinking about you and
trying to create a space, veryintentionally for White people to

(13:56):
really lean into our own humanity.
And welcome.
Thank you so much for being here.

Evangeline (14:06):
Wow.
I mean, it's such a beautiful thing to bereconnected because you do these things.
I get up in front of rooms and I do mything and it's just, you know, there's
always that lingering question of.
"Did it land how?", you know, especiallyat a conference when there's like
thousands of people and it's just thescale is kind of cuckoo bananas, right?

(14:28):
So it's just really lovely to be reunited.
And to hear that it did it did land andthat you have, um, deepened your journey.
And I'm really, really gladthat I got to be a part of that.

Loran (14:41):
Well, thank you.
I still remember running upto you after the conference.
I know that there's like somuch fatigue that happens
after you facilitate something.
And you just want to like gointo like a, like a room by
yourself, maybe smoke a cigarette.
That was definitely me in 27, 27.
And I'm like, "I justneed to be by myself."
And I just, I want to learnmore like how, how do I do this?
What, what do we do?

(15:01):
And you gave me amazing recommendations.
And I took them with me and I still,I kept my notes with me in my folder
for work so that I could be remindedof why it was doing this work and
what work was so important to.
Pushing me forward in this map.
So thank you.
Um,
I'll

Jenny (15:19):
start.
Cause I, I just finished listeningto the podcast episode that you
sent us with that sweet, uh, Mandy.
And you said something thatreally struck me, which was when.
So when you micro aggress, um, to aperson of Color, your job as a White
person is to hold space for however,they respond to that and to apologize

(15:45):
sincerely, and then to go find anotherWhite person to sort of unpack your grief
and you know, your feelings around that.
And one of the things that Loran is comingacross in starting The Spillway is that
when you try to go find those White peopleto, to hold space for your grief and your

(16:05):
frustration and, and all the pain thatcomes with with causing hurt to a person
of Color, you get, you find on eithersort of either end of the spectrums,
you find a lot of accountability abuse.
So, so my question is how doyou hold the evolving nature of

(16:25):
the human experience and amidst.
Essentially cancel culture.
So how are we able to reach out toother, you know, or find other White
people to hold space for us in that?

Evangeline (16:37):
Yeah,
that's a great question.
Um, I think that building community,having a caucus space or a regular
space that you can dip into, so you'renot having to like build relationship,
introduce yourself, give context,explain your heart, and then ask for
accountability all at the same time.
So if you have two or three people,like it could be the two of you who

(16:58):
have a little, you know, first Fridayof the month, let's have a little
check in on how our Whiteness is going.
Um, and it's like a cup oftea, a virtual cup of tea.
I don't know if you're,if you can hang out.
Um, but I think it's reallyimportant to anchor in a community
that that is meaningful, that can,that knows all of you and that can

(17:20):
give you permission to screw up.
And that will, you know, I need that.
I need to be loved through my.
Trespasses.
I need to be able to go and speakto the places where I make mistakes.
I make mistakes all the time, and I don'twant to have to have that community like
reinvent itself every week or every year.
So I think there's somethingabout like longevity and being

(17:44):
held in the community over time.
That really matters.
And I think, you know, cancelculture is, uh, is a beautiful
example of White supremacy culture.
It's really ineffective.
And if we want, um, you know, wwe need to throw a better party
than White supremacy, right?
And so if we're fighting an anti-racist,you know, for doing anti-racism

(18:06):
work, we have to make it inviting.
We want more people to join us.
We right.
Maybe we need, we needto build our numbers.
And the only way to do that is tobe able to love people in their
imperfection, in their mistakes.
Um, and I think it's helpful toremember, like I had a journey.
I didn't, I didn't wake up one day just.

(18:27):
You know, quoting Ibram Kendi, youknow, it's like, I, I, I had to
have my own awakening and I thinkthere's some humility in that.
And recognizing I'm on, I've beenon a journey, I'm on a journey.
This person's on a journey.
Th the mistake that Jenny made todaymight be the mistake that I make tomorrow.
And that Loran makes next week, like,how do we have some humility in that?

(18:51):
Um, I mean, I have a lot moreto say about cancel culture,
but I, I think I'll pause there.

Jenny (18:58):
I mean, I think that's, that's fair

Loran (19:02):
when I hear the, the mistakes piece.
I think why can't wecatalog that somewhere?
And that to me becomes The Spillway of,oh, Hey, there's this mistake that I made.
I want to be honest about it.
And I want to share in my vulnerabilitythat this thing just happened.
And one, you can learn from my mistakeso that you don't have to replicate

(19:23):
this, that, that saves your humanity.
And it also saves a person of Color fromhaving to go through this experience too.
Um, but then it builds community and itbuilds like a positive White anti-racist
community, but that requires that webe vulnerable and White people love to
cancel other White people, especiallywhen it comes around vulnerabiltiy.

Evangeline (19:46):
Yeah.
I
have this great story.
So my first ever, um, I knew I was wayand I was like going, I was showing up
in spaces with my individual analysis ofmy own Whiteness as a Jew, as a queer.
Um, the first time I ever put myselfout there to like invite other White
people to join me, um, was downhere in North Carolina in 2002.

(20:09):
And I.
I was working on a university campus andI was doing these talks where I would
get up and I would like talk about likehow messed up we were and how White
people needed to figure out our stuff.
And I was like finger point finger pointfinger point, and I would be done and
people would like run for the door.

(20:30):
They could not get out of the room
fast enough.
And I, I had, um, a mentor atthe time and he was into Union
Archetypes and I have a High Warrior.
I've a High Warriorjustice, seeker archetype.
And I have a very low, um, Orphan,a very low, um, ask for help.

(20:50):
I've gotten better overthe years, but at the time.
My Orphan was like really exiled.
So he suggested to me that I givethe talk, not from my Warrior
stance, but from my Orphan stance,like what was my Orphan say?
And so it was, it was like MLKday on this college campus.

(21:11):
And I got asked to speak and Iwas like, I'm going to go for it.
I'm going to give thetalk from my orphaned.
And I called the talk "six mistakesthat I've made as a White person."
And you could have heard a pindrop people were totally into it.
And when it was, when I wasdone, I had a line of like 20
people that wanted to talk to me.

(21:32):
And I was like, holy shit,this is a game changer.
Like I have to model being.
Scared and making mistakes to, if I wantother people to join me in this space.
And it really impacted me, um, to justsee how receptive, like White people
were yearning to talk about our mistakesand there wasn't space to do that.

(21:54):
There's plenty of like yelling andscreaming or go read a book, be
in my book group, give me money.
There's plenty of that, but there'snot a lot of, um, that, that
kind of like, hold me my shame.
Cause I don't want to spin, I don't wantto spin out and get paralyzed and go into
a shame spiral and never be seen again.
Right.
Uh,

Jenny (22:13):
also that doesn't help anyone.
Right?
Like the shame spiral.
It doesn't, I mean it

Evangeline (22:18):
helps Netflix.
It helps Ben and Jerry's,

Jenny (22:26):
they'll be okay with other things.
I think Ben and Jerry's

Evangeline (22:31):
they don't no.

Jenny (22:34):
Oh, it helps Netflix.
That was.
It's so true

Loran (22:39):
For me, but I think, I think we need more White failures.
I think that that is so importantthat we allow for fallibility within
our movement and that perfection.
And I feel like perfection issuch a tenant of White supremacy.

(23:00):
And what I've really experienced withThe Spillway is every time I try to
post something new on social mediaor a new angle, or a new invitation
into hurt into vulnerability, intocompassion and empathy, I get, "oh, this
is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
You're wrong."
And then you try to engage inconversation and they never come back

(23:22):
because they're just so taken offwith oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
We have to do this right.
We have to be perfect.
We have to always bediligent so that nothing.
No weakness.
Is ever kind of explored

Evangeline (23:36):
can't you?
I mean, if you, if all you do is powerthrough racial justice work, then
aren't you replicating White supremacyculture through your anti-racism?
And how do we help people see in themirror that, you know, you can come
up with your KPIs and you can haveyour, your dashboard of anti-racism

(23:57):
work and check all your boxes and makeall your assumptions, but isn't that
alienating and not culture building?
So, you know, there's somethingabout wanting to your, what you're
talking about is actually creatinga culture that has never existed.
And so I'm interested in like howto support this, the imagination,

(24:19):
the White imagination of like,what does a concerned vulnerable.
Um, curious White culture look like,and, and people may feel really
uncomfortable with that role, asopposed to the role of like, I have
my clipboard, I have my checklist.
Don't get in my way,

Jenny (24:40):
we talked to one other guest about what's a better motivator, shame or love.
And, you know, he cameback and said "love.
Absolutely."
So assuming that we believe that's true.
How do we get more White peopleto center love into this work?

Evangeline (25:00):
Well, I think it's, I think it's a both, and I think that
we have to, we have to recognizethat White people are in vast.
White people can be invastly, different places.
Um, and so.
The short-term gain that comes with shame.
Is that a person's like,"oh, I shouldn't say that.
Okay.
I'm clear.
I just, I won't say that again."
So there's like a short-term gainand that I've been schooled around my

(25:23):
language, or I've been schooled aroundtaking up too much space or whatever
the particular shame bot thing was.
But I think the, and that's, we need that.
I mean, I, I needed to getsomebody who needed to.
"Jerk my slack," as my wife, likesto say, somebody needed to jerk my
stack and I needed to sit up andgo, oh shit, I can't do that again.

(25:44):
There are moments where that'snecessary, but that's not a
movement building strategy.
That's not a teaching tool.
It's a, it's a moment in time.
It's like an isolated thing.
I don't want my kid to touch a hot oven.
I yank them back from the hotoven, but that's not the sum
total of my parenting skills.
And so I think where where Whiteanti-racists can sometimes this,

(26:05):
this idea of a moral imagination.
Like we lack the permission in somecases, or we don't make the time or
someone tells us it's not strategic.
So that's strategic touse your imagination.
Um, and so we, maybe we're waitingfor people of Color to do it for us.
I mean, Adrienne Maree Brownwrites prolifically about the

(26:25):
importance of the, of using ourimaginations to get out of here.
And that all organizing isscience fiction, but do White
people actually believe that?
Are we willing to put in the time?
So love is an important tooland it, it can't happen outside
of an accountability context.
I want both, right.

(26:46):
I want support, which is my word for love.
What y'all are calling love.
Like I want, I want support,but I also want accountability.
If all I'm getting is love andsupport, that's like sappy and vapid.
And I don't really believe it.
Right.
And if all I get is chastised andyanked on and told them I'm doing
it wrong, then I'm only going tostick around for five minutes.

(27:08):
What we, what I would say is whatwe really need in our organizing
spaces is we need that balance of.
Support and accountability.
And that can only happen in relationship.
It's really easy to just give somebodya high five in passing or, you know,
an emoji on their posts or what haveyou like, I can love, love, love, love,
but if you're my neighbor and I'm sickand tired of your dog pooping on my,

(27:33):
I don't know, Japanese maple, then I'mgoing to actually write, I'm going to
actually need to have a conversationwith you that is not just like high
fiving you on Facebook or what have you.
Right.
Um, so it's like we have to go for theharder, more vulnerable, more threat
threatening conversations, because wedon't know what the outcome will be.

(27:54):
If you're having a conversationwhere you're certain what the outcome
is, it's probably not getting usto that imaginative next place.
Right.
I

Loran (28:02):
can't even think about the next question.
I just want to sit in that fora moment that has so lovely.

Evangeline (28:08):
Like
I only want to be having conversationsthat I have no idea where they're going.
That's the only kind of conversationI'm interested in having.
And if you're just here to tell meI'm doing it wrong, that's boring.
Okay.
Got it.
What's next.
Or if you want me here totell me that I'm awesome.
That's equally boring, right?

(28:28):
I want to be engaged the truthof what it means to live in,
in this, in this complexity.

Loran (28:35):
It's reminds me of a quote that if everyone in the
room has the same definition ofjustice, it's not a diverse room.
And that's what this reminds me of.
If that were all showing up with thesame understanding of, of movement
building, we're not actually buildinga movement, we're building a tower
without any kind of broad structureand it will just tip over immediately.

Evangeline (29:00):
And then we have to invite discord, but that discord
has to be relationship relational.
I think we live in a veryconflict avoidant world.
We have, we have lots of examples ofconflicts going really badly, right.
Bombs dropping that, you know,people losing their tempers,
being violent with one another.

(29:21):
Um, and then we have lots ofexamples of avoidance, right?
Like, mommy, why does thatman only have one leg?
Oh, shut up.
Don't talk about that.
Let's go.
Right.
So like, we don't want to talkabout the hard things or we
want to drop bombs on people.
It's like, these are theextremes that we're living in.
And if we want to be in a negotiatedspace where we're trying to figure
out what does justice mean, or whatdoes equity mean in this organization?

(29:44):
Or what does power look like?
Whatever the question on the table is,um, that negotiated space needs to be able
to tolerate a certain amount of discordand that discord needs to be facilitated.
Which is why I think a lot of leadershipprograms could, should, may include
facilitation skills because we're allkind of, I mean, I could go off on

(30:07):
like death by meeting now, like this,the number of horribly facilitated
meetings where the conflicts thatneed to happen, aren't happening.
And instead we're having like thewrong conflict over and over again.
Right.
And it's like, how can we get rid ofthose wrong conflicts and actually have
the conflict that the group needs to have

Loran (30:27):
"conflict.
We need to have"

Jenny (30:29):
conflict.
Yeah.
My brain just exploded.
It sounds like, do weneed to have, that's love

Evangeline (30:36):
having a break conflict.
That's love.
That's what, that's what it meansfor me to say that anti-racism
is going to center love.

Jenny (30:44):
I just keep going back to what you said about, you know, you said, um, that
you call what we're calling love "suport".
And that who was such a huge opener,um, in my mind, love is support.
I mean, you were also saying thatwe need support and accountability,
but in my mind, you know, love,I think a lot of us are raised

(31:06):
with love is like a Hallmark card.
You know, that sort of love, um,very sentimental and, you know,
let's hug everyone and all thosetypes of things, which it, which it
can be, but also that idea of, ofsupporting support being the love.
I just, I don't even know ifI'm articulating how much my

(31:27):
world has just changed with justa simple shift of perspective.

Evangeline (31:33):
When you,
when you think about like, what isthe support this person needs, right?
Like going back to calling,that's why calling out is so easy.
That's why cancel culture is so easybecause it doesn't require anything of it.
It's just lose your temper.
And like the only place that I'mdown with calling out is like, if I'm
standing in front of Capitol Hill, right.

(31:54):
Holding a sign, like, yes.
Let's call, like we call out up.
Right.
It's like we punch up.
We don't punch down.
That's what's so intoxicating forso many people about cancel culture.
Is that it's lazy.
It's easy.
Right?
I can just block you.
I can just discard you.
I don't need to engage you.
I can walk away from those 53% ofWhite women who voted for Trump.

(32:16):
I don't need to try to figureout how to talk to them.
Right.
It's it's an incredible shift to think.
Well, actually, how do I support?
How do I support people to makeanother step in their journey, right.
To like unpack what isit about a particular.
Political moment or a policy orthe way an administrator's showing

(32:37):
up in their college campus or theway an LGBT center is being run.
Like whatever the, whatever the issueis, what does it mean to support
someone to consider a differentreality or a different set of needs, a
different definition of justice, right.
And you can't have that conversation ifyou're giving someone the finger, like

(32:58):
it's just not going to go well, great.

Jenny (33:01):
I wonder, you know, it, within that support, what does forgiveness and
grace look like when we're supportingother White people in, in this work,
in this space, in these spaces?
Yeah.

Evangeline (33:18):
I mean, I, I think that we have to start with ourselves.
I think there's a fairly.
Large swath of White people that I workedwith, especially in the last couple of
years, it's been pretty rapid fire, lotsof work, lots of White people suddenly
wanting to like, get, um, get real.

(33:38):
And I think that there'sa lot of shame in that.
There's a lot of feeling of like,oh my God, I'm XYZ years old.
And I didn't know.
Um, I mean, Loran even opened with itright in telling, telling the story
of being 27 and never consideringWhite people talking to White people.
Now, I don't sure Loran and like a shamespiral about it, but I think that we

(33:58):
have to forgive ourselves to some extent,like we're dropped down on the planet.
We are raised in the community that we'reraised in and we have to forgive ourselves
for buying into, you know, the red pillor the blue pill, Neo which pill, right?
Like we have to forgive ourselvesthat this is this, this is where

(34:20):
we landed and how we landed.
But then once we, once we're awake,once we are doing our work, um, I think
it's so easy to get caught up in shameor guilt and become paralyzed and think
you're never going to get it right.
Partly because people are tellingyou you're doing it wrong.
I mean, there's just so manythings that would take somebody

(34:41):
in yank them off their path.
And so we have to forgive ourselves, um,But I also, I feel like there's a degree
of grace that I have to have with myselfand with all of the people I'm working
with, because it's that premise of like,people are doing the best they can with
an incredibly complicated, hard situation.

(35:03):
And, uh, I feel like White supremacyis a billion trillion dollar industry.
Like it's, it's going heavyevery day, all day long.
I like to say there's a check in mymailbox for shutting the fuck up.
And my job is to like, not goto my mailbox and not get the
check and not cash the check.

(35:23):
And it takes a lot of thoughtfulnessto not cash that check.
It's really easy to just go on

Loran (35:32):
Jenny, when you were talking, just bringing up the
words, grace and forgiveness.
It struck me how gendered thatlanguage is, unfortunately.
And how do we, how do we make sense ofthe intersection of race and gender?
In this conversation of racial justice.
Yes.
Yeah.
How, how do we, how do we holdforgiveness and grace with White

(35:56):
men who I think historically are notshowing up to racial justice in the
same way that White women are or theway that White non binary folks are.
I

Evangeline (36:08):
mean, it's a tough one.
I think there's not, um, there's nota lot of space for White men at cis,
straight White men, maybe in particular,but I think it's, um, it's hard.
It's the compounding impact of being a,being White and being male and being cis.
It's like, what's the, what's the messagethat White men are getting right now.

(36:32):
Like the message that they're gettingis you fucked up, you ruin the world
and you should just take a seat.
Right?
Like, that's the message.
So if that's the, if that's, what'splaying on the Intercom all day long
and I have any power whatsoever, um,I am gonna do everything I can to turn
the volume on the intercom down, focuson like cryptocurrency or whatever.

(36:57):
And I'm like, do my thing.
Right.
And if I don't have that much power,I may become addicted to opiates
or I may, um, you know, becomeinfatuated with the Confederate flag.
And it's like, it's,I want to change that.
What's playing on that intercom.
Like, I don't want it to be White men.

(37:19):
You fucked up, you ruinthe world, take a seat.
Like, I don't think that's helpful.
Um, and I actually think it makesfor very contentious spaces.
White men are part of community,

Loran (37:31):
right?
What do you want to haveplaying on the intercom?

Evangeline (37:34):
Well for White men, I think it's like, it's not your job to fix this.
It's not your job tosolve it all by yourself.
And, you know, get curious aboutwho you could be working with
and get in touch with your heart.
That's what I would wantplaying on the Intercom.
Get in touch with your heart.
Find, make friends and builda team and build a team.

(37:57):
That's

Loran (38:00):
you work a lot now with White women, uh, doing anti-racism work.
What is, what is this work to share it?
Share with us.
Share what this work is!

Evangeline (38:10):
Sure.
So in 2017, my friend Kari Points,and I looked at each other and we
thought, oh my gosh, um, this is goingto be what happens in this election.
It's going to be really painful and hard.
And what are we going to do?
There was also the, that was sort ofthe, for me, at least I will own that.
I had a totally defensive.

(38:32):
Reaction to all the Karen memes thatstarted coming out on social media.
And I was like, oh my God,like, I know that White women
can do way better than this.
Like, this is just horrifying.
And I think queer people have beenleading in racial justice work like across
the country for decades and decades.
And, um, it's exciting to me.

(38:52):
So Carrie and I are both queerand we started, um, a workshop
called Finding Freedom, White womentaking on our own White supremacy.
And the purpose of the workshop wasto examine is to examine receiving
sexism, receiving misogyny,receiving patriarchy homophobia.
And then turning around and perpetratingracism, like how White women do this.

(39:17):
um really backhanded.
Like I'm oppressed by around gender.
And now I'm going to turn aroundand I'm going to punch down.
I'm going to act out White supremacy.
And, um, we offered the workshop inperson and we had a really great reception
Durham, North Carolina, um, 50 people inthe room, 50 people on the waiting list.

(39:40):
Well, fast forward COVID happens.
We put the workshop online and nowwe've had over 700, um, White women
take the class and we've got 15facilitators teaching the class online.
And we were starting to kind of builda community of accountability, build
that community I was describing ofsupport and, and accountability.

(40:02):
Um, I'm really proud ofthe workshop it's evolved.
There's a part two thatwe're working on now.
Um, and, uh, I just completed aworkshop for White Jewish women.
That was a trip, reallyincredible and thought provoking.
And I'm still kind of wrestlingwith what that was like.
And then Carrie's about to do a genealogyworkshop for White people to consider.

(40:26):
Um, ancestors and Whiteness.
So we it's, it's, it'sgrowing, it's evolving.
Um, but the, the Finding Freedom workshopis really, um, a solid place, I think
for White women and gender queer peopleto do some reckoning with collusion
and, um, why we collude and some ofthe things that we can do to stop.

Jenny (40:49):
Okay.
Can you define collusion justfor folks who don't know?

Evangeline (40:53):
Sure.
I mean, collusion looksdifferent for different people.
It could be, but basically it means,um, partaking in White supremacist
culture using it to our advantage.
Um, not resisting.
So just going the easy route and theeasy route might look like being quiet
or the easy route might look like beingabsent, um, or just not thinking about it.

(41:16):
Um, so I talk about the four D'ssometimes and doing racial justice work
there's defensiveness and deflectionand denial, and then there's despair.
And those all come out when we're,sometimes they come out when we're
colluding, sometimes they come out whenwe're resisting, but collusion just
means going with the flow, cashing thatcheck in the mailbox and saying, fuck it.

(41:39):
I, I worked hard for this and,um, I'm gonna take what's mine.

Jenny (41:47):
When you're working with White women in, in these workshops,
are there any inherent qualitiesor attributes that you see within
them that all sort of connect ordoes that sort of vary per person?
I guess.

(42:08):
I mean, there definitely

Evangeline (42:09):
are some themes that come up in the workshops and in the work, I think
we've hit on a couple of them already.
And this conversation around shameperfectionism, um, for a lot of the
women that, that transition from callingout to calling in and recognizing
that we have a responsibility tolike bring more White people into

(42:29):
the work and doing that through loveis a big tenant of the workshop.
And I think that I'm, I'm more attuned tosome of the differences that are showing
up in the room than the similarities.
It's interesting, but Idefinitely think that.
Those similarities have to do withwhere a person is in their journey.
So some of the women, this is theirfirst time in an affinity space,

(42:51):
and they're just trying to figureout, like, what does this mean?
That we're talking about racism andthere aren't any people of Color here.
Um, and then for other women, I thinkthere's more experience with being an
activist and they're coming in wounded,they're coming in raw, they're coming
in, like, it's a shit show out there.
Do you have anything to help?
You know, I, I, I think of like oldM*A*S*H* episodes with like, you know,

(43:14):
like the helicopters and it's just likechaotic and it's a crisis and people
come into the workshop and they'relike, we need bandages the bandages.
Um, And then other women, I mean,what's one of the things that's
really beautiful is that we're seeinggenerations like a grandma and a
daughter and two granddaughterscoming into the space together.

(43:34):
And that's really powerful.
Um, and seeing how those generationaldifferences show up and get talked
about in addition to talking a lotabout class and how we are socialized
into our Whiteness, through our,our socioeconomic class experience.
Um, I learned what I knowabout being White, I've learned
by being upper middle class.

(43:55):
And I think that thatwould be really different.
I know that that experience isreally different than some of my
White working class, um, colleagues

Loran (44:03):
within these, these themes that you're finding.
I guess there's like a two-part questionthat I'm thinking about, and it's
both interrupting and then expanding.
What are, what are themesthat you want to see?
Um, more regularly, um,like positive themes.
And then what are some of the themes thatyou want to start interrupting a little
bit more regularly within White women?
Within the work?

Evangeline (44:24):
Um, that's a great question.
So the part two to FindingFreedom is called the Yes Lab.
And when we were writing, likethe description for the Yes Lab, I
wanted to call it "where perfectiongoes to die", but that, that
might be too intense for people.
I think we wrote it it'ssomewhere in the description.
Um, this idea that I can't interrupt amicroaggression or speak up in a meeting

(44:50):
or do anything unless I have like theperfect plan, like here's my PowerPoint.
I've already got a strategic plan.
Like we can't interrupt because wedon't know the perfect thing to say.
We don't know how it's going to go.
You don't like, there's somany reasons to collude.
There's so many reasons to not saysomething and then what I'm listening

(45:11):
for and what I'm looking for is a.
Bigger capacity for risk taking greaterrisk-taking among White people, but in
particular White women, um, in this,in this instance, um, I'd love it.
If White men took way morerisks for racial justice, I
want to be clear about that.
Um, So, what do we need to, to beable to take bigger risks and, um,

(45:34):
letting go of needing to get it right.
Or know that it's going to be perfect orknow that everyone is going to understand
what I say the first time I say it.
And like, what about being willingto like, fuck it up 57 times?
And that 58th time is like, awesome.
And it goes really well, but Ican't, you can't get to that 58 time
unless you screw it up 57 times.

(45:56):
So like some resiliency, some willingnessto get it wrong and learn, learn from
getting it wrong and then get back up,get back in there and get it right.
So I think that's answering yourquestion more resiliency, less
attachment to getting to having theperfect solution or the right answer.
I always say you can't doHoward Zinn in 30 seconds.

(46:17):
Like you just can't.
So, um, one of the biggestrevelations, I think for some people
is it's okay to just say "ouch".
Like someone says something and itdoesn't work for you just go "ouch".
Like pretty sure the meeting willstop and people will look at you and
somebody might ask you, what do you mean?

(46:38):
Why did you just say ouch?
And then you might say,I'm really uncomfortable.
I don't like that word, or I'm not surewhy that picture isn't working for me.
I'm like that, that, that is inof itself an interruption, right.
That we don't have to wait ifwe're in a multi-racial space.
For example, we don't have to relyon that person of Color that we work

(47:01):
with to be the person who raisestheir hand and says, I'm sorry, but
that image on that slide is not okay.
Or that word is not okay.
And we've just gotten so, um, Imaybe we haven't gotten, we've always
been so over reliant on folks ofColor to like, do that labor for us.
And at the same time, I think wehave to like be careful, right?

(47:25):
So it's complicated.
I don't want to be raising my handevery minute of every meeting,

Loran (47:30):
right.
For the first three ish months of TheSpillway, I was very intentional on
not quoting folks of Color in the workbecause I wanted White people to try to
build a relationship with other Whitepeople, without the permission that
so many White people desire from folksof Color to do racial justice work.

(47:55):
Uh, they needed it to be perfectin order to show up before they
could even enter the space.
So is it okay if I comein here, I can come in.
And then they would finally, once,once I started to share videos of Sonya
Renee Taylor, James Baldwin, ResmaaMenakem "you need to do this work.
You need to do this work."
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Let me show up.
I'm here now.

(48:16):
I am.
Yes.
They told me to be, I'm going to behere, but that kind of that permission
seeking that we have as White people,because we don't trust ourselves and
we don't trust other White peopleis a huge thing that I'm finding.

Evangeline (48:32):
Yes.
I don't think I havethe credibility, right?
People only person.
And it's complicated because racismimpacts all of us and obviously Black and
Brown bodies way more than White bodies.
And I would never equate the impact.
And one of the impacts of Whitesupremacy on White people is that we

(48:53):
are fed a story that we don't have thecredibility to speak to racism that only
people of Color can speak to racism.
And it takes my moralcompass away from me.
I need that compass.
I need that moral compass.
I deserve that moral compass.
I want it.
I get to speak about how racism ismessed up and it, the same way that
I get to speak about like the earthis on fire or homophobia is messed

(49:17):
up or transphobia is messed up.
Um, So I, I agree with you that thatpermission to seeking is insidious.
And I also want to build relationship withfolks of Color and do this work in the
community and not be like charging ahead.
And then 10 years later it'd be like,Hey, was it okay that I started a podcast?

(49:38):
So it's like, how do wefind that, that balance?
But I far more, I mean, far more White,people are not doing enough and waiting
for someone to give them permission.
Then there are White people like running,you know, running ahead and going for
it in isolation in problematic ways.
At least in my opinion,

Loran (50:00):
success is going from failure to failure without losing momentum.
And that is hashtag TheSpillway fail with us.

Jenny (50:14):
Yeah.
Oh man.
Going back to my first, what we first talked about, which was, um,
how we invite people or how would yourecommend inviting other White people
into relationship to, to be able tounpack microaggressions and grief and

(50:40):
frustration surrounding race and racism,um, in a safe way, what would, what
would be your, your setup for that?
Or what is your setup for that?
Because you actually dothat with White women.
So,

Evangeline (50:54):
yeah.
Uh, it's a great question.
I wasn't thinking aboutit for myself though.
That's a funny, um, so there'seducation, like come learn.
Let's, let's learn together, right?
It's an age old consciousness,raising political consciousness.
Um, you know, the book group, right?
So there's the education model.

(51:15):
Um, I'm a big fan of the action model.
Like let's take some action today.
Right.
Like maybe the statute needs togo away or maybe the school board
needs a little reminder thatcritical race theory is awesome.
Like whatever the action is, I'mat my core, I'm an organizer.
I want people to organize.

(51:37):
Um, lately I've been doing it withmoney because, um, Really into
moving money out of White people'shouses and into BIPOC houses.
So, um, I think one way to inviteWhite people into this work is
through taking action together andwhatever that action is, I mean, for,
for you, it might be a fundraiseror it might be a postcard event.

(52:00):
Um, and I'm okay with a book group I'm ina book group right now for this Whopper.
"They Were Her Property" aboutWhite women slave owners.
And it's a hard read.
And if I wasn't in a book group, itwould be really hard to finish this book.
So I don't want to degrade.
Learning together.
I think it's a great thing.
Um, a film series let's watch, you know,let's line up one movie a month for 12

(52:25):
months and, and hang out together andwatch movies that have race in them.
So I think there's a ton ofways to invite people to be
together and to be thoughtful.
Um, and I also run a, I run a freemonthly White caucus, and I'm going to
invite the two of you to come drop in ifyou ever want to come be in the space.
But it's, um, it's usually thethird, Friday from 12 to 1:30.

(52:50):
And that's just a space for, it'sa really casual, like people don't
have to tell us they're comingor they're not coming to show up.
If you can, you don't show up if you can.
But I think there's so many differentlevels of commitment you could
ask people to make from the like.
Hey, come to this free monthly caucusto commit to this 12 month film series.

(53:11):
And I think it's like, If it wasn'tCOVID, I would say feed 'em, you
know, feed 'em, feed 'em, feed 'em, andbuild relationships and know people's
stories and, um, engage with peoplein a, in a radically welcoming way.
And then be clear that the purpose ofbeing together is to be White together, to

(53:33):
be White and thinking about race together.
So those are just some ideasoff the top of my head.
I have a coaching group, so I sent,I send out a call and I say, you
know, do you want to participatein a 12 week coaching group?
I do one for White women and I doone for White men and gender queer
people are welcome to either one.

(53:54):
Um, and, and then classes, teachingonline classes and inviting people
to come explore, um, these, thiscontent, um, through online class.
But I, I really thinkit's important to know.
Create a space that's based on, basedin love and support where we ask hard
questions, but we do that, not to findpeople wrong, but to help people deepen

(54:18):
their understanding of their own powerand their own recklessness and their
own journey and the potential they haveto, to impact their world differently.
Um, so that's kind of justoff the top of my head, like

Jenny (54:33):
just a few ideas.
Um, and we will, uh, put someinformation about those workshops in
the show notes for folks to check out.

Evangeline (54:43):
Thank you.

Loran (54:44):
Um, I was just thinking though, aren't we supposed to be
decentering Whiteness though, right now?
Isn't it.
Isn't that the whole point aren't wesupposed to be like removing ourselves
from Whiteness, stopping this altogether?
Well, you can't de-center ifyou don't know you are, um, like
it's hard to get out of the way.
If you don't know you're in a way,so you sort of need someone to be

(55:07):
like, excuse me, coming through.
Excuse me.
Coming through.
Um, I, I think that.
It's a, it's one of the contradictions,one of the, the, um, paradoxes of the
work, if you're in a multi-racial spaceand you want a de-central Whiteness,
which I think is a lofty and importantgoal, for sure, the White people in

(55:27):
that space need to know what that means.
And the people of Color in thatspace need to know what that means.
And they actually need to agree onwhat de-centering Whiteness means.
Um, if you're living in a White worldand you're going to a White church and
you're shopping at a White grocery store,and you're raising a White family, um,
I'm not sure how you decenter Whiteness,other than letting it become more explicit

(55:51):
and recognizing that it has impact.
But so many people, so many Whitepeople live very White lives.
So.
I think it's important tofigure out what does that mean?
What does that mean for you?
What does that mean for yourchildren or your, your people?
Um, but yeah, I would like us to de-centerWhiteness, but I don't think we've arrived

(56:12):
at a place where we could start sayingI'm Irish American or I'm Ashkenazi.
Um, that, that would change the dataof police violence against Black and
Brown people or the school to prisonpipeline or health disparities.
So it's kind of a conundrum.
We still have to collect that data andwe still have to name race because those

(56:35):
disparities are still real and shocking.
And yet White people still take up anenormous amount of room and energy.
With that room.
And with that energy, that bringsus to our very last question.
You very literally have this microphoneright in front of you, to White
people listening to this podcast.
What do you want to say to them?

(56:56):
To us?
Who are folding their laundryright now, who are sitting in
traffic, who are commuting?
What do you need to tellWhite people right now?

Evangeline (57:06):
I would say that if you aren't in an intentional relationship with
another White person for talking aboutthis content, you will forget about it.
And 20 minutes from now, youwon't even remember that you
listened to this podcast.
And two weeks from now, youwon't even remember that
you're White or why it matters.

(57:27):
And that the only way to stay awake,the only way to stay committed and stay
clear about what you want to do with theprivilege that you have as a White, person
is to engage in an intentional committed.
Infrastructure of some kindbuilding a community of some kind,
because the White amnesia is real.

(57:49):
And if anti-racism is something thatyou are committed to, then you need a,
a community of people to hold you inthat commitment and, you know, asking
yourself, do you have people around youwho will tell you when you show your butt?

Jenny (58:22):
also, is there a difference between cancellation
and building a strong boundary?

Loran (58:28):
I was just thinking about that because in starting The Spillway, I
was thinking a lot about my parents andtrying to build boundaries around gender.
Um, and the kind of gender harmthat I was experiencing with them.
Yeah.

(58:48):
And I, so distinctly remember Iwas back home and we went up to
this like little mining town.
It's now this like gambling town,

Jenny (59:02):
because that's the natural progression.
Sorry.

Loran (59:08):
Yeah, actually there's like two or three cities in Colorado
that were like little mining towns.
And now I've turned intothese like gambling resorts.
Um, you know, it's very bizarre.
And so we were driving back from oneof them and my mom was trying to ask
me questions about being non-binaryand what that meant, uh, and the

(59:29):
kind of questions that she was askingwhere these kinds of like educational
or these informational pieces and.
It felt less, like she was trying toget to know my non-binary identity or
like my experience within my gender.
And rather it was like tryingto just do some Gender 101.

(59:51):
And I remember I turned to her, I stillsee this image in my head of her driving
in the car and I'm sitting in thepassenger seat and I said, mom, that's
something you could totally just Google.
You don't have to ask you that question.
And so I set up this likeimmediate boundary and from
that,

(01:00:14):
she never felt the ability to ask me about gender again.

Jenny (01:00:21):
Gotcha.
Cause she thought she was, shewas probably feeling like she was
asking you to learn and connectwith you, but you felt like.
She wasn't asking you aboutyour personal experience.
She was like, oh, can you bethe spokesperson for all nine
bot non-binary folks, please now

(01:00:44):
child.
Oh,

Loran (01:00:49):
and so I do, I hold that as like, there were, there were these two different
distinct experiences that happened.
I experienced it as a boundary andshe experienced it as a cancellation.
I'm like, oh no, no, no.
I can never engage this again with my kid.
Um,

Jenny (01:01:07):
oh,
perspective context.
Yeah.

Loran (01:01:13):
Gotcha.
And so even, uh, and so then, likeyears later, my parents gave me this
wonderful gift of going to therapy.
and doing family therapy, the three of us.
And it was within that, that shewas able to really articulate that

(01:01:35):
to me of like, this felt like asever rather than like an invitation
to have different conversations.
And so then I also had to shareup, like, I want to be in your
life in this, in this way.
And I also need you to like, doyour own work outside of that.

(01:02:01):
Um, because it's exhausting andyou don't want to bring that
exhaustion, uh, into our relationship.

Jenny (01:02:12):
Right?
Like our relationship will sufferunder the weight of this, me being
the spokesperson, which is exactlywhat people of Color are saying.
Right.
Yeah.

Loran (01:02:31):
Um, and so I think there's going back to what you're saying
about narrative and contextand how those are so important.
All of that goes out the windowand cancellation all of it.
It doesn't matter.
You did one thing.
We will paint you with the single storynarrative for the rest of your life.

(01:02:54):
And you do not have a chancefor a shot at redemption.
And so that's my building.
The Spillway is also so important to mebecause I have this personal connection
to this like blurred boundary ofboundaries and cancellation, and that

(01:03:17):
I really just needed another cis personto have a conversation with my mom.
But cis people didn't feel like theycould talk with other cis folks or
that cis folks weren't allowed todo the work because we keep saying
center queer and trans voices and theconversations, which yes we need to do.
And cis folks are going to listen tocis folks in a completely different way.

Jenny (01:03:46):
It's like that idea of solidarity too.
It's just like, just like,oh, I messed up with my child.
I said X, Y, and Z.
And the other cis person is like me too.
And they talk about it and they cryor whatever, and they're, then they're

(01:04:07):
able to like, have more compassion forthemselves and the situation I move
forward.

Loran (01:04:15):
I love that.
That's the thing that Bernie brownsays that that's the immediate way to
build solidarity and vulnerability.
It's just those two simple words.
"Me too."
I have been hurt.
This thing does not feel good.
I can't make sense.
I can't wrap my head around it.
And for someone else to say, oh my God.
Yeah, me too.

(01:04:36):
Yeah.
I needed another cis person for my mom.
And so I want to be anotherWhite person for a White person.
Who was having that moment of like,I don't get this, I don't understand
this, this isn't making sense.
I don't want to say something becauseI'm afraid I'm going to be canceled.
Um, or I'm trying

Jenny (01:04:51):
so hard and I just keep falling flat on my face.
Yeah.

Loran (01:04:57):
All right.
You don't even want tohave these conversations.
These conversations justfrustrate the fuck out of me.

Jenny (01:05:01):
Well, I hate myself so much because I can't, cause I just, I look
at my family history and I look atall these things in the world and all
I see is my face and how awful it is

Loran (01:05:12):
to all of the above

Jenny (01:05:19):
I mean, I'm just here because you're here,

Loran (01:05:26):
I'm here because

Jenny (01:05:26):
you're here, but also no stop, but also because
it's, you know, important.
But I didn't, I didn't know all of that about you and your mom.
I mean, I knew something wentdown but I didn't know that.

Loran (01:06:19):
Yeah.