June 4, 2022 • 23 mins
What is interGenerational trauma and how is it impacting White people?
In these shorter episodes, called "chute blocks," Loran and Jenny explore the ideas and concepts which inform the work of The Spillway.
What to expect in the episode:
- InterGenerational Trauma fundamentals
- Implications for our work in the present-day
- How working with our interGenerational trauma will change our future
=====
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For a transcript of this episode and more, please visit our website, www.thespillway.org
Mentioned in this episode:
The Spillway Community Guidelines
1. Engage sequentially. The show is a serial not episodic. We do this so we can build relation and find common ground and context. 2. We stay in our own lane. The Spillway is about White people talking to (predominately) White people about White people and White culture. We're not out here to critique anyone's actions but our own. 3. Our combined fabric of destiny. (3a) As Dr. King said, our humanities are deeply interconnected to each other. Racism negatively impacts me, too. (3b) The Spillway is one mechanism within a larger framework needed to sustain racial equity and justice. We're not a one-stop shop. 4. No one right way to liberation. We all share the same goals, but not every method works for every person. If this doesn't work for you. That's okay. Maybe it works for someone else.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Loran (00:01):
In the first episode I call it a "mini teach-in."
Jenny (00:04):
Oh, yeah, let's do it.
Uh, mini teachin "teachin".
It
sounds
Loran (00:09):
like tea chin.
Yeah.
That's what it sounds like.
I don't know
Jenny (00:13):
It's a mini, it's a mini teach.
It's a teach many.
A small T
Loran (00:21):
it's a
Spillway moment *laughs*,
Jenny (00:25):
but I like that.
Loran (00:27):
Oh a chute block!
Yeah.
It's a chute block.
Cause that's, that is part ofThe Spillway thing we should do.
You already did something like that?
Like about The Spillway.
I think you posted something on Instagram,
on Instagram, but we need to do, um, achute block about it that way folks know.
(00:49):
But like, this is like,
Jenny (00:51):
what is this?
The water.
Are you being water right now?
It's very like, like what's this,I wouldn't say violent, but this, I
Loran (01:04):
think going through chute blocks could be really violent because
you're like flushing into a brick wall.
Jenny (01:10):
And then the other way, if you were a human smashing into the
Loran (01:14):
brick wall, humans should not go through a fucking actual
literal spillway that'd be awful.
You die immediately.
Yeah.
So let's call it a spillway chute
Jenny (01:23):
block.
One chute block in The Spillway block
Loran (01:30):
just to chute block, but that's the, okay.
So maybe to explain this when the wateris coming off, the spillway, it needs
to interact with these chute blocks inorder to slow down so that once the water
goes into the river or the Creek or thewhatever kind of water basin is collecting
the spill off of the reservoir at the dam.
(01:55):
Um, it doesn't hurt theecology of where it's landing.
That's the whole point of a spillway.
Jenny (02:04):
Oh!
I
Missed that.
Well, it's
Loran (02:06):
like two things.
So one is to release excess waterso that it doesn't breach the dam.
So
Jenny (02:13):
that's what I just thought it was.
I didn't realize about the ecology stuff.
Loran (02:17):
Oh, well then so yeah, that's the thing.
If you just released the water.
And there's actually some like,really intense videos of people like
opening a dam or opening a spillwayfor the first time in like decades.
And there's just a whole bunchof like soot and sediment.
It's just like compacted.
And so it actually just lookslike a giant like fudge machine.
It's just like pushing it out, likeall this dirt, and then just starts
(02:40):
like spewing and this water can go.
Insainely far and fast.
Um, and so if you don't slow it down,you would just end up like taking
a fire hose to the chipmunk, whichis not what we want to have happen.
No, no.
(03:01):
And so that spillway slows the water down.
Gotcha.
So it's less violent.
And that's why I wanted to call it "TheSpillway" , because it has this double
meaning one, we want to make sure.
We're not breaching the dam.
Um, but if we are,we've got a place to go.
(03:21):
Um, and that's kind of like theharm reduction aspect for ourselves.
We have to take care of ourselves.
Um, and this lake reservoir,this pool, uh, this body of water
that, you know, in this metaphoris White people and Whiteness.
Um, but then when we release that,when we, when we go downstream, when we
connect, cause water does doesn't stay inthe reservoir for ever, um, it connects
(03:42):
with the world around us constantly.
And so when it's going through.
The dam and it is released and goesthrough the spillway, either through
excess water or through, um, or througha chute block, then it slows down and
becomes more intentional in how itexists in the larger world or within the
larger ecology that it then enters into.
(04:05):
Uh, and so then that's whereit becomes preventative work.
When we talk or when we thinkabout healing ourselves as a
way to support other people.
And so, yeah, it's a really longkind of over intellectualized way
of, of why I have, why I thoughtcalling this work, "this spillway" was
important because it has this doublemeaning both for the dam, but then
(04:28):
for the ecology and the surroundingarea that can be like incredibly
impacted were that dam to break or.
They're not to be a spillway
Jenny (04:41):
*lauhgs* a
little side wink.
Loran (04:44):
A little wink and a nod.
So in this chute buck, we're going totalk about intergenerational trauma.
Let's get it going.
Jenny (05:20):
Okay.
Loran (05:20):
Intergenerational trauma is a little bit easier to understand.
So this definition is goingto be a little bit shorter.
First.
It's important to understand the roleof epigenetics or that the field of
epigenetics exists in science, epigeneticsstudies, how genes express themselves.
It's really hard to change DNA, buthow our DNA is read or not read by
(05:44):
our biochemical process is learnedthrough our inheritable phenotype chain.
That's a mouthful.
So let's unpack that a little bit.
Roughly, we all have a uniquebiochemical process, which is informed
by our appearance diets, pollutantsthat they lived within and even
major emotional or social events.
(06:06):
Our bodies attempt to adapt to change inour surroundings so that we can survive.
It's how we evolve and adapt.
Our body has passed thatinformation down to our offspring
based on the Punnett square.
Our bodies received this informationfrom the DNA within the egg and the
sperm you were body can end up readingsome DNA, like one person and other DNA.
(06:30):
Like another person.
Our bodies are amazing.
I know I had to go through abiological refresher myself, just
so we could have this conversation.
Uh, but within the past five years, datathat's been published suggests that how
our bodies read its DNA is informed byfive generations of phenotype changes.
That means that the diets, the pollutants,the major social events of your great,
(06:55):
great, great grandparents, still in 2022inform how your body reads it's DNA.
Importantly how even our great,great, great grandparents were
reading their DNA was informed by ourgreat, great, great, great, great,
great, great, great grandparents.
(07:18):
Maybe we'll think about this another way.
Maybe we've gotten too abstractwhen people who menstruate are
born, they're born with all ofthe eggs that they will ever have.
So just in that (07:28):
the egg that was needed to create you or before it was
fertilized was in your grandmother's body.
And this is why we see genetic traits,skipping a generation, the egg that turned
into you was created in your grandmother.
(07:49):
The diet pollutants, social eventsof your grandmother explicitly
informed the creation of you.
And that exact same istrue for your grandma.
From the oldest boomer tothe youngest millennial.
That means that the agriculture,the pollutants and the social events
from as earliest 1646 to 1696 arenegotiated within our bodies today.
(08:17):
Trauma is passed down, not just socially,but chemically how my Irish ancestors
navigated the potato famine in the 1850sor how my Polish ancestors experienced
the pollutants of the south of Polandduring the industrial revolution in
the 1870s or how my American ancestorsresponded to the enslavement of more
(08:39):
than 4 million Africans and theirdescendants that lives within me today.
We study history to know ourselves.
And this isn't about excusingbehavior or past wrongs.
It's about understanding why and how theknot was tied so that we can untangle
ourselves from this hurt, hurts to otherpeople and hurts to ourselves, but really
(09:04):
holding intergenerational trauma assomething that was passed down to us.
Something that is within our bodies.
And adding an additional layer ofperpetration induced, traumatic
stress, I think creates the paradoxof being White in America and that
(09:25):
we are simultaneously perpetratorsand victims of race and racism.
And the paradox goes on appreciatedso often at a social or, or
mainstream discourse level.
And that's where The Spillway comes in tocreate a space where we can openly talk
about and share in and grieve and healand mend White culture so that it is built
(09:51):
in compassion, understanding, patience,empathy, and understanding no more, no
less, but to do that work as White people,I can't heal anyone else, but myself
and I'm on that path as a White person.
And I'd really love for you tojoin us because my healing as a
White person is wrapped up in yourhealing as a White person, too.
(10:13):
Because when that other White personacts out of pocket, that reflects
on me and it reflects on them.
And we live in a hyperindividualized society that wants
to say, "oh, no, no, no, no, no.
I am not that I am this"
Jenny (10:27):
I was actually talking to my mom about this last night.
You know, that my grandmother, Iwas present in my grandmother's
(10:48):
body, which is crazy to thinkabout because I never met her.
She died long before my mom movedto the states, but in my heart,
I like in my body and my DNA.
So not in my heart cause that'slike too abstract, but in my
body and in my DNA, I know her.
I ha I carry her struggles and herpain and her joys and all that.
(11:11):
It's just so crazy to think abouthow you can have never met someone.
You've never knew someone and then,but you are, they are such a huge
part of who you are as a person.
And in terms of, you know,what The Spillway is about.
Thinking about how they handled, youknow, that, that side of the family,
(11:35):
Irish and English, how they handled allthat stuff, pain and societal pressures
and trying to fit into whatever.
Box.
They had to, and never, you know,"stiff upper lip" is a thing.
So never, never having to deal with that.
And then watching my momhave to deal with that.
(11:56):
And then watching me have to deal withthat is, you know, that pain has never.
Never been dealt with and by dealtwith, I mean, I don't mean that sounds
very harsh and dismissive to the pain.
What I mean by "dealt with"is held compassionately.
So that, that, that idea.
(12:17):
You talk about, it's just crazyto me that we were all present
within our grandmother's bodies.
Loran (12:24):
Yeah.
I never understood it until I, yeah.
That like a visceral kind of connectionand feeling it in your body of like
oh, wow, I was my grandmother's body,literally the DNA that has made me.
And so when thinking about my parentstalking about race and racism is
from this different time, likethat different time lives in us.
(12:45):
And so while we're trying to healour hurts, we're also trying to
heal like our ancestral hurts.
And so it feels much larger, but insome ways it feels more manageable
of like, oh, wow, let me justactually learn my family history.
And let me see what those hurts are ratherthan just kind of like willy-nilly going
out in the world and being like I'm hurtbecause of intergenerational trauma.
(13:10):
I'm a victim.
Jenny (13:12):
Oh, you mean that doesn't work?
Loran (13:14):
No.
It's.
What is your specific family's history?
What did your family go through ratherthan just like flinging all the spaghetti
on the wall and seeing what sticks?
Jenny (13:26):
That's
interesting.
Isn't it?
And an analogy.
Loran (13:32):
It's not like you have to throw something on the wall to see if it sticks.
And what does that
paint might as well be spaghetti, like
I think I have like 0.5% Italian,something, something in there somewhere.
Jenny (13:44):
I'm sure.
Yeah, it gets, it gets mixedin there for me personally.
It's a super overwhelmingthought up until very recently.
I've always just assumed thatI was dealing with patterns of
behavior that were passed down.
(14:06):
And instead of like, it'sactually in the makeup of my body.
So I was always like, well, once I startmeditating or whatever, I'll fix it, but
that's, that's not how that goes too.
So to me, it makes it feel really big.
And, uh, out of reach,
Loran (14:23):
I feel like it would just be more liberating.
That's kind of how I experience it,of like, oh, these aren't my patterns.
These are patterns that were given to me.
And so sometimes when thingshappen, I'm like, "oh, all right.
grandma."
Yes.
Let's stop that.
Let's stop trying to blameother people when they're late.
(14:48):
Cause like punctuality,
Jenny (14:50):
right?
Not in my world, but I, I seeit in other people's worlds.
Loran (14:54):
But it like shows like I was like, even in our meeting today, like
showing up five minutes later, I waslike, "oh my God, I can't believe it.
I can't be late I can't be late",but it's also Jenny, like, Jenny
knows that, like, I'm just going toshow up when I'm going to show up.
But then there was this other thing oflike, oh, I learned punctuality somewhere.
Mm.
Jenny (15:09):
I see.
Yeah.
No, for me it still feelsreally, really overwhelming, but
it's also makes me really sad.
Which sounds like, "oh, you poorthing", but not like, just thinking of
like, if we didn't have that, I mightas a person who menstruates and as
(15:33):
a person who has a uterus that couldcarry another human being that's in
turn carrying another human being, youknow, I could change that narrative.
But I am too frightenedand sad to do that.
Also we've talked about this.
I don't, my life is such thatI don't want to, you know,
(15:55):
bring a child into the world.
That's just not separate from all that.
But like what little free time I have.
I like it.
You know, but yeah, there's justmakes me sad, which is Naval gazing.
I realized, but I also just, youknow, I was just like, oh, that's sad.
womp womp
Loran (16:14):
I think if we can acknowledge where things come from, I think it
feels a little bit easier, but yeah,I do understand the pull towards
it feeling really overwhelming.
Not knowing who, what, where, when,why and how sometimes of how we act,
because the other piece too is ifwe leave them unchecked, um, we just
(16:35):
kind of disassociate from our ownpersonal experience and we just call
it like a personality trait, butthe more that we invest in our own.
Education of ourselves.
I just feel like that will change.
And it does change how future generationsunderstand themselves and access it, like
what your grandparents were doing impactsyou, but also what you do impacts you too.
(17:01):
And so if we were to have kids, ourgrandkids would then look back to us and
be like, what the fuck were they doing?
Right.
And in some ways, like, that's what we'redoing with our grandparents right now.
Right, right, right.
Yeah.
And so we have agency, you know, as muchas like agent agency is like, uh, a choice
(17:23):
or an illusion under capitalism, but ourindividual responses to each other would
be held in question by our own grandkids.
Jenny (17:32):
also, I'm perfect.
So I don't want any littlegrandbabies being like.
Fuck you doin' grandma?
There's grandma's Skinner
or grandma
Loran (17:47):
Skinner and her insert personality trait here,
Jenny (17:52):
her inability to let other people talk in a conversation
which you like to join this.
Do you have something to share?
Like, I think the goal of The Spillwayis super lofty, which is why I love it.
Um, and I think it's important,but it can also, for me feel like,
(18:16):
like, "oh my God, this is so muchlarger than I know what to do with",
there's a quote that's been floatingaround the internet that I've seen.
I don't know who it is and I'llprobably butcher it because
that's who I am as a person.
But essentially it says.
'You're planting seeds for trees thatyou will never sit under.' Essentially.
(18:40):
I love that it's, um, you know, you'replanting seeds that that hopefully
when we're gone, people will still becultivating these trees and watering them
and taking care of them and whatever.
We may never see them
but the hope is that by planting theseeds, you know, there'll be there.
Loran (19:01):
This reminds me of Amy Hillier's interview because she said
we have to do this for our kids.
It's true.
And I was like, okay,
sure.
Like kids that felt yeah.
Like,
Jenny (19:12):
yeah, cause we're we're children-less folks.
Yeah.
Loran (19:15):
We're not going to have kids.
Nope.
But if I learn how to metabolize andprocess racialized conversation, And
were I to have kids, then they wouldinherently biologically chemically
have a better understanding as to howto metabolize racial conversations.
And so, yeah.
Yeah.
We're not trying to, we can't actuallychange all of White culture right.
(19:41):
Through The Spillway within our lifetime.
Right, right, right.
It's going to be a couple of generations
Jenny (19:47):
at least.
I mean, we shouldn't start.
Loran (19:49):
Oh no, that means we have to start now.
Right.
Jenny (19:53):
Yeah, I was just, sorry.
I meant that like for myself, cause myself was like, well just don't do it.
That someone else do it.
Loran (20:02):
You're not having kids.
So it doesn't matter.
Doesn't matter.
Nope.
Control alt delete backspace,backspace that controls the undo.
Undo.
Yes, we were given this likeintergenerational trauma and we
(20:24):
were also given intergenerationalstrengths and intergenerational
compassion and love and empathy andunderstanding and patience and support.
And like, let's just not losesight that we were given so much.
So, so, so much, uh, each and everyone of us in our preciousness.
We also have these reallygreat strengths too.
(20:47):
So let's cultivate those too.
In the first episode I call it a "mini teach-in."
Jenny (00:04):
Oh, yeah, let's do it.
Uh, mini teachin "teachin".
It
sounds
Loran (00:09):
like tea chin.
Yeah.
That's what it sounds like.
I don't know
Jenny (00:13):
It's a mini, it's a mini teach.
It's a teach many.
A small T
Loran (00:21):
it's a
Spillway moment *laughs*,
Jenny (00:25):
but I like that.
Loran (00:27):
Oh a chute block!
Yeah.
It's a chute block.
Cause that's, that is part ofThe Spillway thing we should do.
You already did something like that?
Like about The Spillway.
I think you posted something on Instagram,
on Instagram, but we need to do, um, achute block about it that way folks know.
(00:49):
But like, this is like,
Jenny (00:51):
what is this?
The water.
Are you being water right now?
It's very like, like what's this,I wouldn't say violent, but this, I
Loran (01:04):
think going through chute blocks could be really violent because
you're like flushing into a brick wall.
Jenny (01:10):
And then the other way, if you were a human smashing into the
Loran (01:14):
brick wall, humans should not go through a fucking actual
literal spillway that'd be awful.
You die immediately.
Yeah.
So let's call it a spillway chute
Jenny (01:23):
block.
One chute block in The Spillway block
Loran (01:30):
just to chute block, but that's the, okay.
So maybe to explain this when the wateris coming off, the spillway, it needs
to interact with these chute blocks inorder to slow down so that once the water
goes into the river or the Creek or thewhatever kind of water basin is collecting
the spill off of the reservoir at the dam.
(01:55):
Um, it doesn't hurt theecology of where it's landing.
That's the whole point of a spillway.
Jenny (02:04):
Oh!
I
Missed that.
Well, it's
Loran (02:06):
like two things.
So one is to release excess waterso that it doesn't breach the dam.
So
Jenny (02:13):
that's what I just thought it was.
I didn't realize about the ecology stuff.
Loran (02:17):
Oh, well then so yeah, that's the thing.
If you just released the water.
And there's actually some like,really intense videos of people like
opening a dam or opening a spillwayfor the first time in like decades.
And there's just a whole bunchof like soot and sediment.
It's just like compacted.
And so it actually just lookslike a giant like fudge machine.
It's just like pushing it out, likeall this dirt, and then just starts
(02:40):
like spewing and this water can go.
Insainely far and fast.
Um, and so if you don't slow it down,you would just end up like taking
a fire hose to the chipmunk, whichis not what we want to have happen.
No, no.
(03:01):
And so that spillway slows the water down.
Gotcha.
So it's less violent.
And that's why I wanted to call it "TheSpillway" , because it has this double
meaning one, we want to make sure.
We're not breaching the dam.
Um, but if we are,we've got a place to go.
(03:21):
Um, and that's kind of like theharm reduction aspect for ourselves.
We have to take care of ourselves.
Um, and this lake reservoir,this pool, uh, this body of water
that, you know, in this metaphoris White people and Whiteness.
Um, but then when we release that,when we, when we go downstream, when we
connect, cause water does doesn't stay inthe reservoir for ever, um, it connects
(03:42):
with the world around us constantly.
And so when it's going through.
The dam and it is released and goesthrough the spillway, either through
excess water or through, um, or througha chute block, then it slows down and
becomes more intentional in how itexists in the larger world or within the
larger ecology that it then enters into.
(04:05):
Uh, and so then that's whereit becomes preventative work.
When we talk or when we thinkabout healing ourselves as a
way to support other people.
And so, yeah, it's a really longkind of over intellectualized way
of, of why I have, why I thoughtcalling this work, "this spillway" was
important because it has this doublemeaning both for the dam, but then
(04:28):
for the ecology and the surroundingarea that can be like incredibly
impacted were that dam to break or.
They're not to be a spillway
Jenny (04:41):
*lauhgs* a
little side wink.
Loran (04:44):
A little wink and a nod.
So in this chute buck, we're going totalk about intergenerational trauma.
Let's get it going.
Jenny (05:20):
Okay.
Loran (05:20):
Intergenerational trauma is a little bit easier to understand.
So this definition is goingto be a little bit shorter.
First.
It's important to understand the roleof epigenetics or that the field of
epigenetics exists in science, epigeneticsstudies, how genes express themselves.
It's really hard to change DNA, buthow our DNA is read or not read by
(05:44):
our biochemical process is learnedthrough our inheritable phenotype chain.
That's a mouthful.
So let's unpack that a little bit.
Roughly, we all have a uniquebiochemical process, which is informed
by our appearance diets, pollutantsthat they lived within and even
major emotional or social events.
(06:06):
Our bodies attempt to adapt to change inour surroundings so that we can survive.
It's how we evolve and adapt.
Our body has passed thatinformation down to our offspring
based on the Punnett square.
Our bodies received this informationfrom the DNA within the egg and the
sperm you were body can end up readingsome DNA, like one person and other DNA.
(06:30):
Like another person.
Our bodies are amazing.
I know I had to go through abiological refresher myself, just
so we could have this conversation.
Uh, but within the past five years, datathat's been published suggests that how
our bodies read its DNA is informed byfive generations of phenotype changes.
That means that the diets, the pollutants,the major social events of your great,
(06:55):
great, great grandparents, still in 2022inform how your body reads it's DNA.
Importantly how even our great,great, great grandparents were
reading their DNA was informed by ourgreat, great, great, great, great,
great, great, great grandparents.
(07:18):
Maybe we'll think about this another way.
Maybe we've gotten too abstractwhen people who menstruate are
born, they're born with all ofthe eggs that they will ever have.
So just in that (07:28):
the egg that was needed to create you or before it was
fertilized was in your grandmother's body.
And this is why we see genetic traits,skipping a generation, the egg that turned
into you was created in your grandmother.
(07:49):
The diet pollutants, social eventsof your grandmother explicitly
informed the creation of you.
And that exact same istrue for your grandma.
From the oldest boomer tothe youngest millennial.
That means that the agriculture,the pollutants and the social events
from as earliest 1646 to 1696 arenegotiated within our bodies today.
(08:17):
Trauma is passed down, not just socially,but chemically how my Irish ancestors
navigated the potato famine in the 1850sor how my Polish ancestors experienced
the pollutants of the south of Polandduring the industrial revolution in
the 1870s or how my American ancestorsresponded to the enslavement of more
(08:39):
than 4 million Africans and theirdescendants that lives within me today.
We study history to know ourselves.
And this isn't about excusingbehavior or past wrongs.
It's about understanding why and how theknot was tied so that we can untangle
ourselves from this hurt, hurts to otherpeople and hurts to ourselves, but really
(09:04):
holding intergenerational trauma assomething that was passed down to us.
Something that is within our bodies.
And adding an additional layer ofperpetration induced, traumatic
stress, I think creates the paradoxof being White in America and that
(09:25):
we are simultaneously perpetratorsand victims of race and racism.
And the paradox goes on appreciatedso often at a social or, or
mainstream discourse level.
And that's where The Spillway comes in tocreate a space where we can openly talk
about and share in and grieve and healand mend White culture so that it is built
(09:51):
in compassion, understanding, patience,empathy, and understanding no more, no
less, but to do that work as White people,I can't heal anyone else, but myself
and I'm on that path as a White person.
And I'd really love for you tojoin us because my healing as a
White person is wrapped up in yourhealing as a White person, too.
(10:13):
Because when that other White personacts out of pocket, that reflects
on me and it reflects on them.
And we live in a hyperindividualized society that wants
to say, "oh, no, no, no, no, no.
I am not that I am this"
Jenny (10:27):
I was actually talking to my mom about this last night.
You know, that my grandmother, Iwas present in my grandmother's
(10:48):
body, which is crazy to thinkabout because I never met her.
She died long before my mom movedto the states, but in my heart,
I like in my body and my DNA.
So not in my heart cause that'slike too abstract, but in my
body and in my DNA, I know her.
I ha I carry her struggles and herpain and her joys and all that.
(11:11):
It's just so crazy to think abouthow you can have never met someone.
You've never knew someone and then,but you are, they are such a huge
part of who you are as a person.
And in terms of, you know,what The Spillway is about.
Thinking about how they handled, youknow, that, that side of the family,
(11:35):
Irish and English, how they handled allthat stuff, pain and societal pressures
and trying to fit into whatever.
Box.
They had to, and never, you know,"stiff upper lip" is a thing.
So never, never having to deal with that.
And then watching my momhave to deal with that.
(11:56):
And then watching me have to deal withthat is, you know, that pain has never.
Never been dealt with and by dealtwith, I mean, I don't mean that sounds
very harsh and dismissive to the pain.
What I mean by "dealt with"is held compassionately.
So that, that, that idea.
(12:17):
You talk about, it's just crazyto me that we were all present
within our grandmother's bodies.
Loran (12:24):
Yeah.
I never understood it until I, yeah.
That like a visceral kind of connectionand feeling it in your body of like
oh, wow, I was my grandmother's body,literally the DNA that has made me.
And so when thinking about my parentstalking about race and racism is
from this different time, likethat different time lives in us.
(12:45):
And so while we're trying to healour hurts, we're also trying to
heal like our ancestral hurts.
And so it feels much larger, but insome ways it feels more manageable
of like, oh, wow, let me justactually learn my family history.
And let me see what those hurts are ratherthan just kind of like willy-nilly going
out in the world and being like I'm hurtbecause of intergenerational trauma.
(13:10):
I'm a victim.
Jenny (13:12):
Oh, you mean that doesn't work?
Loran (13:14):
No.
It's.
What is your specific family's history?
What did your family go through ratherthan just like flinging all the spaghetti
on the wall and seeing what sticks?
Jenny (13:26):
That's
interesting.
Isn't it?
And an analogy.
Loran (13:32):
It's not like you have to throw something on the wall to see if it sticks.
And what does that
paint might as well be spaghetti, like
I think I have like 0.5% Italian,something, something in there somewhere.
Jenny (13:44):
I'm sure.
Yeah, it gets, it gets mixedin there for me personally.
It's a super overwhelmingthought up until very recently.
I've always just assumed thatI was dealing with patterns of
behavior that were passed down.
(14:06):
And instead of like, it'sactually in the makeup of my body.
So I was always like, well, once I startmeditating or whatever, I'll fix it, but
that's, that's not how that goes too.
So to me, it makes it feel really big.
And, uh, out of reach,
Loran (14:23):
I feel like it would just be more liberating.
That's kind of how I experience it,of like, oh, these aren't my patterns.
These are patterns that were given to me.
And so sometimes when thingshappen, I'm like, "oh, all right.
grandma."
Yes.
Let's stop that.
Let's stop trying to blameother people when they're late.
(14:48):
Cause like punctuality,
Jenny (14:50):
right?
Not in my world, but I, I seeit in other people's worlds.
Loran (14:54):
But it like shows like I was like, even in our meeting today, like
showing up five minutes later, I waslike, "oh my God, I can't believe it.
I can't be late I can't be late",but it's also Jenny, like, Jenny
knows that, like, I'm just going toshow up when I'm going to show up.
But then there was this other thing oflike, oh, I learned punctuality somewhere.
Mm.
Jenny (15:09):
I see.
Yeah.
No, for me it still feelsreally, really overwhelming, but
it's also makes me really sad.
Which sounds like, "oh, you poorthing", but not like, just thinking of
like, if we didn't have that, I mightas a person who menstruates and as
(15:33):
a person who has a uterus that couldcarry another human being that's in
turn carrying another human being, youknow, I could change that narrative.
But I am too frightenedand sad to do that.
Also we've talked about this.
I don't, my life is such thatI don't want to, you know,
(15:55):
bring a child into the world.
That's just not separate from all that.
But like what little free time I have.
I like it.
You know, but yeah, there's justmakes me sad, which is Naval gazing.
I realized, but I also just, youknow, I was just like, oh, that's sad.
womp womp
Loran (16:14):
I think if we can acknowledge where things come from, I think it
feels a little bit easier, but yeah,I do understand the pull towards
it feeling really overwhelming.
Not knowing who, what, where, when,why and how sometimes of how we act,
because the other piece too is ifwe leave them unchecked, um, we just
(16:35):
kind of disassociate from our ownpersonal experience and we just call
it like a personality trait, butthe more that we invest in our own.
Education of ourselves.
I just feel like that will change.
And it does change how future generationsunderstand themselves and access it, like
what your grandparents were doing impactsyou, but also what you do impacts you too.
(17:01):
And so if we were to have kids, ourgrandkids would then look back to us and
be like, what the fuck were they doing?
Right.
And in some ways, like, that's what we'redoing with our grandparents right now.
Right, right, right.
Yeah.
And so we have agency, you know, as muchas like agent agency is like, uh, a choice
(17:23):
or an illusion under capitalism, but ourindividual responses to each other would
be held in question by our own grandkids.
Jenny (17:32):
also, I'm perfect.
So I don't want any littlegrandbabies being like.
Fuck you doin' grandma?
There's grandma's Skinner
or grandma
Loran (17:47):
Skinner and her insert personality trait here,
Jenny (17:52):
her inability to let other people talk in a conversation
which you like to join this.
Do you have something to share?
Like, I think the goal of The Spillwayis super lofty, which is why I love it.
Um, and I think it's important,but it can also, for me feel like,
(18:16):
like, "oh my God, this is so muchlarger than I know what to do with",
there's a quote that's been floatingaround the internet that I've seen.
I don't know who it is and I'llprobably butcher it because
that's who I am as a person.
But essentially it says.
'You're planting seeds for trees thatyou will never sit under.' Essentially.
(18:40):
I love that it's, um, you know, you'replanting seeds that that hopefully
when we're gone, people will still becultivating these trees and watering them
and taking care of them and whatever.
We may never see them
but the hope is that by planting theseeds, you know, there'll be there.
Loran (19:01):
This reminds me of Amy Hillier's interview because she said
we have to do this for our kids.
It's true.
And I was like, okay,
sure.
Like kids that felt yeah.
Like,
Jenny (19:12):
yeah, cause we're we're children-less folks.
Yeah.
Loran (19:15):
We're not going to have kids.
Nope.
But if I learn how to metabolize andprocess racialized conversation, And
were I to have kids, then they wouldinherently biologically chemically
have a better understanding as to howto metabolize racial conversations.
And so, yeah.
Yeah.
We're not trying to, we can't actuallychange all of White culture right.
(19:41):
Through The Spillway within our lifetime.
Right, right, right.
It's going to be a couple of generations
Jenny (19:47):
at least.
I mean, we shouldn't start.
Loran (19:49):
Oh no, that means we have to start now.
Right.
Jenny (19:53):
Yeah, I was just, sorry.
I meant that like for myself, cause myself was like, well just don't do it.
That someone else do it.
Loran (20:02):
You're not having kids.
So it doesn't matter.
Doesn't matter.
Nope.
Control alt delete backspace,backspace that controls the undo.
Undo.
Yes, we were given this likeintergenerational trauma and we
(20:24):
were also given intergenerationalstrengths and intergenerational
compassion and love and empathy andunderstanding and patience and support.
And like, let's just not losesight that we were given so much.
So, so, so much, uh, each and everyone of us in our preciousness.
We also have these reallygreat strengths too.
(20:47):
So let's cultivate those too.
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