June 4, 2022 • 25 mins
What is Perpetration-Induced Traumatic Stress (PITS)?
Moral Injury?
How are White people negatively impacted by racism, too?
In these shorter episodes, called “chute blocks,” Loran and Jenny explore the ideas and concepts which inform the work of The Spillway.
Mentioned in this episode:
The Spillway Community Guidelines
1. Engage sequentially. The show is a serial not episodic. We do this so we can build relation and find common ground and context. 2. We stay in our own lane. The Spillway is about White people talking to (predominately) White people about White people and White culture. We're not out here to critique anyone's actions but our own. 3. Our combined fabric of destiny. (3a) As Dr. King said, our humanities are deeply interconnected to each other. Racism negatively impacts me, too. (3b) The Spillway is one mechanism within a larger framework needed to sustain racial equity and justice. We're not a one-stop shop. 4. No one right way to liberation. We all share the same goals, but not every method works for every person. If this doesn't work for you. That's okay. Maybe it works for someone else.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Loran (00:01):
Reservoirs and dams are these incredibly massive human made structures
that completely changed the ecosystemthey're in for better and worse when
there's too much pressure on the damor there's too much water that cannot
be contained in the reservoir orthe dam, engineers must release this
excess water in a way that doesn'tfurther impact its surrounding.
And the earliest dams simply had floodgates that would open it, releasing
(00:24):
the water and the water would shootout of the flood gate at incredibly
dangerous speeds and pressure,destroying life and habitats downstream.
Just try to imagine wildlife,vegetation, or anyone trying
to live with water constantlyhitting them at 83 miles an hour.
It's just not going to happen.
At the turn of the 20th century,spillways were invented to slow down
(00:47):
the incredible speed and pressure of thewater as it was released from the dam.
Concrete control sections and dischargechannels now guide this water out of
the dam while the water has to encounterthese things called "chute blocks."
These chute blocks are strategicallyengineered and constructed
to absorb a tremendous amountof energy from the water.
(01:09):
This way, the water pressuredoes not destroy life downstream.
And translating the mechanics of us awayinto the Spillway as White people, we can
have a tendency to be a lot like water.
When we talk about race and racism..
Most of the time, we veryrarely like to talk about race.
So these ideas, these experiences andbehaviors, they reservoir inside of us.
(01:31):
And it builds pressure then because Whitepeople don't have any social structures
or supports to release this pressure.
The reservoir can overfill.
Worse yet when race and racism becomepart of everyday conversations through
events that spark national dialoguesto individual exchanges that happen
in our homes and neighborhoods.
These flood gates can open decades andcenturies of unarticulated, sentiments,
(01:56):
and sediment around shame and supremacy.
Unhealed trauma can come outof the dam at 83 miles an hour.
The Spillway exists in theattempt to co-construct control
sections and discharge channelswith, and for other White people.
An organization, exclusively devotedto healing the intergenerational and
historical trauma and perpetrationinduced traumatic stresses of White
(02:19):
people without supremacy or shame.
And there's actual data and sciencebehind the work that we do and
why we do the work that we do.
In what we're calling a "chuteblocks," we've constructed shorter
episodes, where we explore the ideas,the mechanics, and the theories that
inform our work at The Spillway.
Let's continue on with a conversationabout perpetration induced, traumatic
(02:40):
stress.
Are White people just traumatized.
(03:04):
And hurt and victims?
Are we just these things?
No.
I can tell you we're not acting inhealthy ways and we're also not victims.
Like how else do we explainWhite culture or White people?
Do you think people who are mentally wellor quote, "healthy," degrade other people?
(03:26):
Do you think emotionally intelligentpeople become more human when
they'd devalue another human's right
to exist?
No, probably not.
Right?
It's all about perspective.
Having been trained as a socialworker, I approach my work
with trauma informed care.
Did the person who cuts you off intraffic do this because they absolutely
hate you and wanting to ruin your,you very specifically you, your day?
(03:51):
Probably not.
Right?
Maybe they're running late for work.
Maybe they're distracted bythe kids in the backseat.
Maybe they didn't know their blinkersout and they believe they gave you
fair warning when they were merging.
We don't know what'sgoing on in their world.
Outside of this brief interaction.
Yet we immediately jumped to conclusions.
The most common being they're anasshole, not they're being an asshole.
(04:15):
They are.
From the minute they wake upto the minute they go to bed.
They are an awful human being.
Trauma informed care says, "pump thebrakes and imagine a world bigger
than what we immediately experience."
It requires that we hold multiple truths.
This isn't soundbite activism.
If you leave this episode or our workat The Spillway, believing that White
(04:38):
people are only one thing we ask thatyou expand your capacity for multitudes.
Right now, White cultureisn't about nuance.
It's about either or thinking.
It's about one right way mentalities.
It's about perfectionism.
Our realities and lived experiences arefar more complex, nuanced and flawed than
(05:00):
White supremacy and shame make space for.
Am I asking us to extend a littlebit of empathy and compassion and
understanding to White people?
Yeah.
Who doesn't want a worldwith more of these things?
Have White people historicallybeen afforded these things.
Absolutely.
But are White people currentlybeing afforded these things?
(05:22):
And I think our answer can be found in theshared heart of cancel culture on the left
and conspiratorial culture on the right.
What I'm not asking you to dois to create excuses, defend, or
justify your actions or someoneelse's if or when racism shows up.
We're here to try to makesense of the bigger picture.
We cannot miss the forest for the trees.
(05:44):
I really wanted to say it this at thetop of the episode, because so many
White people believe other White,people are just one thing: perpetrators.
And we do this without imaginingor considering the environment or
the world that's needed to create
perpetrators.
(06:05):
Coined by Dr.
Rachel McNair in the titular bookpublished in 2002 "perpetration
induced, traumatic stress or PITSlooks at how creating harm and
trauma to others creates traumaticstressors within the perpetrator.
PITS is controversial because itasks our culture to see murderers,
rapists, executioners, anddomestic abusers as human beings.
(06:27):
Historically, and currently
it's been much easier to name any ofthese individuals or groups of people
as inhuman, as animals, monsters.
As a them not part of an us.
As Dr.
McNair says, quote, "suggestingthey're traumatized is suggesting
they might be human" end quote.
(06:47):
Suggesting they might be human impliesthey are capable of being complete,
complex, and nuanced human beings
that aren't static.
We don't have to like thisfact, but we can't ignore it.
If we refuse to acknowledge thatperpetrators are human, we don't allow
for the possibility that the unethicaltreatment could have been prevented.
(07:08):
The perpetrator needs support orhealing or rehabilitation is possible.
And over the last 12 years,military psychology has looked into
quote, "moral injury" end quote.
Which this can oftenoccur for combat vetrans.
Moral injury is the quote "lasting,psychological, biological,
(07:30):
spiritual, behavioral, and socialimpact of perpetrating, failing
to prevent or bearing witness toacts that transgress deeply held
moral beliefs and expectations."
End quote.
As trauma requires an inability tomove beyond the traumatic event or a
"stuckness" as Resmaa Menakem calls it.
Two people can share an experience,but if one person gets mentally
(07:54):
or emotionally stuck in thatexperience, it turns into trauma.
Moral injury informs PITS.
20 years ago Dr.
McNair's work focused on PTSD.
Primarily used in the few decades,leading up to the new millennium.
And during this time, PTSD wasalmost exclusively utilized, to
understand the consequences ofcertain occupations, soldiers,
(08:17):
first responders, police officers.
However, over the last two decades PTSDhas come to encompass the experiences
of some social identities in response tothe traumatizing impacts of rape culture,
of White supremacy, or heterosexism.
And in the context of race andracism, many White people consistently
experience a moral injury.
(08:39):
What we do with this moral injuryplaces us in a different dimensions
of shame or supremacy culture.
Some White people, want to avoidconversations of race and racism all
together, because it makes us feel badwhen talking about race and racism.
There are White people whohyper fixate on race and racism
to maintain White dominance.
Uh, we see this in the greatreplacement conspiracy theory.
(09:02):
Some White people believe thatnothing good comes from talking
about race and doing so only makesthe problem worse for everyone.
Some White people are quick to point outrace to silence, conversations of racism.
For example, "why do you haveto make everything about race?"
Or "my stepdaughter is Asian.
So.
dot dot dot."
These four points, intrusive recollection,avoidance, negative connotations and
(09:24):
mood, and alterations and arousaland reactivity have been going on for
decades, centuries, even creating anenormous distress within White people.
We don't know what lifewould be like without them.
And yet all of these points are thecriteria for textbook PTSD symptoms.
Do we, as individuals havePTSD around race and racism?
(09:46):
Yes.
And no.
Yes, shame and supremacy culturehave made individuals do some
really regretful and heinous things.
These events and actions can and havecreated a level of stuckness for many
White people, unable to move past the painthat we've caused or bear witness to, or
feel like we've not been able to prevent.
(10:07):
And also because this form ofstuckness has gone on for so long,
we've begun to understand it asnothing more than White culture.
In reality, so much of Whiteculture is a trauma response.
A response to the pain andstruggle as we were fleeing in
Europe, before we immigrated.
But also a response to theintergenerational trauma, our bodies hold.
(10:28):
A current and historical response andPITS we have from perpetrating failing
to prevent the violence of other Whitepeople or bearing witness, to acts against
people of Color that transgress deeplyheld moral beliefs and expectations.
As we know it today, Whiteculture is built around PTSD and
responses to that traumatic stress.
(10:48):
Because PTSD symptoms are held withinthose who have the social power
to enact racist actions, *Whitepeople*: this becomes known as PITS.
A vast majority of White people holdperpetration induced, traumatic stress.
The primary intention of The Spillwayis to help White people acknowledge
our individual and collective PITS findhealing and build the White culture
(11:09):
that's not a tremendous trauma response.
But one of compassion, empathy,patience, and understanding.
The paradox of being Whitein America is that we are
simultaneously the perpetratorsand the victims of race and racism.
And by exploring and understandingthese stressors, we can know
our role as "victims" in quotes.
(11:31):
However, understanding that wehold these PITS helps us to know
our role as the perpetrator too.
Jenny (11:38):
So
we-- you talk a lot about in thefirst couple of episodes, um, about
how we are similar and different.
You and I.
One of the things that we differ on isthe belief that everyone is redeemable.
(12:02):
I struggle with that.
Uh, you, you live it and embodyit, but I, I struggle with that.
Loran (12:09):
What do you struggle with?
Jenny (12:12):
Um, Well, I just don't, I just don't believe that necessarily.
I think there's people who--and I think redemption hinges
on the person wanting it.
Right?
And I don't think everybody does.
Um, and so I don't believethat people, everyone is.
(12:35):
And that's one of the reasons I'm here.
Loran (12:37):
Hmm
Jenny (12:38):
Because I w I want to try to understand that point of view more.
Um, also, you know, I also don't believethat there are good and bad people.
Like I don't, I don't believe that.
I think there's a wide varietyof folks who are complex and
(13:02):
do things for complex reasons.
Um, But I also definitely stand--stand in this camp of like, You know,
somebody will say something and I'llbe like, "oh, okay, you're going to
be over there in that group for me."
Um, but also with PITS, it's hard becauseI know that I'm part of that, right?
(13:26):
Like, so having that grace for myselfmeans I should have it for others.
And that's really hard.
I feel like both of the these mini-sodesare me being like, "no, it's hard.
I don't want
to!"
Um, yeah, that, and that's like, your whole thing is holding space for.
(13:52):
You know, perpetrators in quotes,
Loran (13:56):
right.
holding that frustration.
Yeah, for sure.
Jenny (13:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's hard to look into it andbe like, oh, I'm part of that also.
That's difficult.
Loran (14:06):
Well, the thing that I think makes it easier for me to access
it is the concept of moral injury.
That it is either perpetrating,failing to prevent, or even
just bearing witness to it.
That has an impact on me.
And I think that those last two: failing to prevent and bearing witness. (14:22):
undefined
I think are how we talk a lotabout race and racism today.
We see these like microaggressions or wesee these online comments that are rooted
in ignorance or confusion, and sometimesjust straight up disgust and racism.
(14:47):
Um, and a lot of White people nowwill just check out, "oh, Nope.
I don't have to do that.
That's not my work.
I'm checking out," but I,but "I'm witnessing it.
And I also didn't fail to prevent it.
I'm not intervening."
And so it creates a moral injury withinus because we see that it still goes
on, but we're not interrupting it.
Jenny (15:07):
And a lot of that's done through social media.
I feel like now so much, I feellike more than in person, maybe.
Loran (15:14):
Oh, 100%.
Well, not 100%, but yes, yes.
What you're saying?
Yes.
Like we're also doing anin-person too when you,
I didn't mean
100%.
Yeah.
Sorry.
Jenny (15:26):
Um, no, I, I know what you mean.
Like yeah.
It happens in real life, real
Loran (15:31):
time.
But the majority of thetime it is on social
media
Jenny (15:34):
But social media is how we, especially during COVID how
we all interacted with each other.
Loran (15:39):
Yes.
Yes.
Jenny (15:41):
Because that's all we could do all we could do.
Loran (15:43):
All we could do.
Jenny (15:44):
Sorry.
I digress.
Loran (15:46):
No, you're not digressing at all.
You're gressing.
That's perfect.
Um, but those two pieces.
Make the most sense to me as towhy and how racism still impacts
me as a White person, because Isee other White people acting out
of pocket and acting real messy.
And if I don't intervene or if I don'tlike, if I'm not failing to prevent, then
(16:09):
I feel bad that I didn't do anything.
Right.
And I feel shitty.
And that doesn't mean that I'm a victim.
Right.
Um, but it does mean bylike a textbook definition.
It means victim, but I'm not--I'm not a helpless victim.
I think so often when weuse the word "victim," we
associate it with helplessness.
Jenny (16:28):
Right.
Loran (16:29):
Uh, and so I've always kind of struggled with using that language
on The Spillway (16:32):
"perpetrator" and "victim," but it is, I think the
easiest thing for folks to tap into.
Jenny (16:38):
Right.
You're not being victimized, right.
Like, instead of, yeah, like Ithink more when you're a victim.
Something happening to you from somebodyelse in a very direct way is how I, I
mean, I don't know what the textbookdefinition is exactly, but that's
like when you're scrolling throughFacebook and you see somebody being
(17:01):
messy, as you said, which is great.
I think that's wonderful.
Um, not them being messy, but likethat term, um, when you scroll
through, through social media, yousee some, a White person being messy.
They're not being victimized.
Right.
So that's, that's what I think thatthat's where that difference lies.
And you're also not being victimizedby watching it and not doing anything.
(17:23):
Right.
Oh, that's what I mean.
Yeah.
Sorry.
I missed that part, but yeah.
Yeah.
You're not being victimized.
You're experiencing moral injury,
Loran (17:32):
correct.
Right.
Jenny (17:33):
But you're not like a victim in that sense.
Loran (17:36):
In a helpless sense, yeah.
Jenny (17:38):
Right?
Like you could do something.
But you didn't.
Loran (17:41):
Right,
Jenny (17:41):
But that doesn't mean that it didn't affect you
Loran (17:45):
In social justice discourse.
White people are not supposedto have full-time jobs
dismantling White supremacy.
It's either part-timework or it's a hobby.
Um, you can bring it intoparts of your job, but.
It's not a thing that can orshould put food on your table.
(18:07):
And I think in soundbite activism,this makes a lot of sense.
Cause the soundbite has always beenit's unethical to perpetrate harm
and then profit off of that harm.
We've heard this over and over again,and we even talked about it last episode.
And that narrative I think isbuilt in to the core argument
of shame that White people arenever victims of race and racism.
(18:28):
White people are onlyperpetrators of race and racism.
Like we are not impactednegatively by racism,
Jenny (18:34):
and this is different than reverse racism, right quick.
That's not, we're not talking about
that.
Loran (18:40):
Thank you for saying that.
That is not what we're saying at all.
I'm saying that this is what, uh,this is what destroys our humanity.
This is, this is moral injury.
This is perpetrationinduced, traumatic stress.
Whenever we have that, like that fightor flight feeling that comes up when
people start talking about race or racism,that's us being impacted by racism.
(19:01):
And this is where I like there's "hurts."
And then there's "harms."
And to me, a hurt isn't as,as, as deep cutting as a harm.
Does that make sense?
Like I'm, I'm hurt by somethingrather than I've been harmed by.
Harmed feels more long-term.
Jenny (19:16):
Oh, I see.
Um, yeah, I guess I've never thoughtabout it before, but that seems true.
Feels true.
Loran (19:22):
So the brilliant Clementine Morrigan--
Jenny (19:27):
Genius.
Loran (19:28):
Differentiates "hurt' and "harm."
And I think it's actually reallyapical-- applicable to the
conversation that we're having here.
And Clementine says, "Every time youare hurt is not an example of harm.
People do not need to be accountablefor hurting your feelings or
behaving in ways you don't like.
There's a difference between someoneacting in the ways that violate
(19:50):
your boundaries and someone actingin ways that end up hurting you.
For example, it might reallyhurt you for your partner to
end their relationship with you.
Or to be unable or unwilling tomeet a particular need of yours.
That will hurt.
And you will have the right to feelhurt, but they haven't harmed you and
(20:10):
they don't need to be accountable.
Disagreements conflicts, mismatched needsand boundaries, and all sorts of normal
human interactions can result in hurt.
That doesn't mean anyone hasdone anything wrong or has
anything to be accountable for.
It's a good thing to be considerateand show concern and care when we have
hurt someone's feelings, but that isnot the same as taking responsibility
(20:34):
for having done something wrong.
It is not wrong to have boundariesto disagree, to be in conflict.
And you don't need toapologize for these things.
A lot of the discourse onharm and accountability
encourages codependent relating.
It's normal for other people'sboundaries and differences
to bring up feelings of hurt.
That doesn't mean they've caused harm.
(20:56):
And so when I think about the hurtversus harm with White people and racism
and how we are impacted, we are hurt.
We are hurt, but we are not seeking,nor should we seek the accountability
of folks of Color in that hurt.
Right?
Jenny (21:13):
Yeah no.
Loran (21:14):
Absolutely not.
Jenny (21:15):
Absolutely not.
Loran (21:16):
If anything, we are accountable for that hurt and that's where we are
simultaneously perpetrators and victimsbecause we are hurting ourselves.
Like cancel culture is perhapsnothing more than untreated and
unchecked moral injury bonding.
Cancel culture and conspiratorial culture.
It makes so much more sense to mewhen I understand them and access
them as moral injury culture.
(21:38):
And because the injury goes untreatedunacknowledged or like unchecked,
people get stuck there and thenit morphs into a trauma response.
Jenny (21:46):
What a mind fuck.
Loran (21:47):
Isn't it?
And so that to me iswhere really keeping in
that White people are hurt by thisWhite people are impacted by this.
And because we have to be accountableto ourselves and by our own actions,
we have to be doing this work too.
Right.
I know, it's just reallyfreaking frustrating.
That's when I know that I'mfrustrated, I won't cuss.
(22:09):
I will use "freaking"
Jenny (22:13):
just so gosh, darn frustrating.
Loran (22:42):
Dagnabbit!
Reservoirs and dams are these incredibly massive human made structures
that completely changed the ecosystemthey're in for better and worse when
there's too much pressure on the damor there's too much water that cannot
be contained in the reservoir orthe dam, engineers must release this
excess water in a way that doesn'tfurther impact its surrounding.
And the earliest dams simply had floodgates that would open it, releasing
(00:24):
the water and the water would shootout of the flood gate at incredibly
dangerous speeds and pressure,destroying life and habitats downstream.
Just try to imagine wildlife,vegetation, or anyone trying
to live with water constantlyhitting them at 83 miles an hour.
It's just not going to happen.
At the turn of the 20th century,spillways were invented to slow down
(00:47):
the incredible speed and pressure of thewater as it was released from the dam.
Concrete control sections and dischargechannels now guide this water out of
the dam while the water has to encounterthese things called "chute blocks."
These chute blocks are strategicallyengineered and constructed
to absorb a tremendous amountof energy from the water.
(01:09):
This way, the water pressuredoes not destroy life downstream.
And translating the mechanics of us awayinto the Spillway as White people, we can
have a tendency to be a lot like water.
When we talk about race and racism..
Most of the time, we veryrarely like to talk about race.
So these ideas, these experiences andbehaviors, they reservoir inside of us.
(01:31):
And it builds pressure then because Whitepeople don't have any social structures
or supports to release this pressure.
The reservoir can overfill.
Worse yet when race and racism becomepart of everyday conversations through
events that spark national dialoguesto individual exchanges that happen
in our homes and neighborhoods.
These flood gates can open decades andcenturies of unarticulated, sentiments,
(01:56):
and sediment around shame and supremacy.
Unhealed trauma can come outof the dam at 83 miles an hour.
The Spillway exists in theattempt to co-construct control
sections and discharge channelswith, and for other White people.
An organization, exclusively devotedto healing the intergenerational and
historical trauma and perpetrationinduced traumatic stresses of White
(02:19):
people without supremacy or shame.
And there's actual data and sciencebehind the work that we do and
why we do the work that we do.
In what we're calling a "chuteblocks," we've constructed shorter
episodes, where we explore the ideas,the mechanics, and the theories that
inform our work at The Spillway.
Let's continue on with a conversationabout perpetration induced, traumatic
(02:40):
stress.
Are White people just traumatized.
(03:04):
And hurt and victims?
Are we just these things?
No.
I can tell you we're not acting inhealthy ways and we're also not victims.
Like how else do we explainWhite culture or White people?
Do you think people who are mentally wellor quote, "healthy," degrade other people?
(03:26):
Do you think emotionally intelligentpeople become more human when
they'd devalue another human's right
to exist?
No, probably not.
Right?
It's all about perspective.
Having been trained as a socialworker, I approach my work
with trauma informed care.
Did the person who cuts you off intraffic do this because they absolutely
hate you and wanting to ruin your,you very specifically you, your day?
(03:51):
Probably not.
Right?
Maybe they're running late for work.
Maybe they're distracted bythe kids in the backseat.
Maybe they didn't know their blinkersout and they believe they gave you
fair warning when they were merging.
We don't know what'sgoing on in their world.
Outside of this brief interaction.
Yet we immediately jumped to conclusions.
The most common being they're anasshole, not they're being an asshole.
(04:15):
They are.
From the minute they wake upto the minute they go to bed.
They are an awful human being.
Trauma informed care says, "pump thebrakes and imagine a world bigger
than what we immediately experience."
It requires that we hold multiple truths.
This isn't soundbite activism.
If you leave this episode or our workat The Spillway, believing that White
(04:38):
people are only one thing we ask thatyou expand your capacity for multitudes.
Right now, White cultureisn't about nuance.
It's about either or thinking.
It's about one right way mentalities.
It's about perfectionism.
Our realities and lived experiences arefar more complex, nuanced and flawed than
(05:00):
White supremacy and shame make space for.
Am I asking us to extend a littlebit of empathy and compassion and
understanding to White people?
Yeah.
Who doesn't want a worldwith more of these things?
Have White people historicallybeen afforded these things.
Absolutely.
But are White people currentlybeing afforded these things?
(05:22):
And I think our answer can be found in theshared heart of cancel culture on the left
and conspiratorial culture on the right.
What I'm not asking you to dois to create excuses, defend, or
justify your actions or someoneelse's if or when racism shows up.
We're here to try to makesense of the bigger picture.
We cannot miss the forest for the trees.
(05:44):
I really wanted to say it this at thetop of the episode, because so many
White people believe other White,people are just one thing: perpetrators.
And we do this without imaginingor considering the environment or
the world that's needed to create
perpetrators.
(06:05):
Coined by Dr.
Rachel McNair in the titular bookpublished in 2002 "perpetration
induced, traumatic stress or PITSlooks at how creating harm and
trauma to others creates traumaticstressors within the perpetrator.
PITS is controversial because itasks our culture to see murderers,
rapists, executioners, anddomestic abusers as human beings.
(06:27):
Historically, and currently
it's been much easier to name any ofthese individuals or groups of people
as inhuman, as animals, monsters.
As a them not part of an us.
As Dr.
McNair says, quote, "suggestingthey're traumatized is suggesting
they might be human" end quote.
(06:47):
Suggesting they might be human impliesthey are capable of being complete,
complex, and nuanced human beings
that aren't static.
We don't have to like thisfact, but we can't ignore it.
If we refuse to acknowledge thatperpetrators are human, we don't allow
for the possibility that the unethicaltreatment could have been prevented.
(07:08):
The perpetrator needs support orhealing or rehabilitation is possible.
And over the last 12 years,military psychology has looked into
quote, "moral injury" end quote.
Which this can oftenoccur for combat vetrans.
Moral injury is the quote "lasting,psychological, biological,
(07:30):
spiritual, behavioral, and socialimpact of perpetrating, failing
to prevent or bearing witness toacts that transgress deeply held
moral beliefs and expectations."
End quote.
As trauma requires an inability tomove beyond the traumatic event or a
"stuckness" as Resmaa Menakem calls it.
Two people can share an experience,but if one person gets mentally
(07:54):
or emotionally stuck in thatexperience, it turns into trauma.
Moral injury informs PITS.
20 years ago Dr.
McNair's work focused on PTSD.
Primarily used in the few decades,leading up to the new millennium.
And during this time, PTSD wasalmost exclusively utilized, to
understand the consequences ofcertain occupations, soldiers,
(08:17):
first responders, police officers.
However, over the last two decades PTSDhas come to encompass the experiences
of some social identities in response tothe traumatizing impacts of rape culture,
of White supremacy, or heterosexism.
And in the context of race andracism, many White people consistently
experience a moral injury.
(08:39):
What we do with this moral injuryplaces us in a different dimensions
of shame or supremacy culture.
Some White people, want to avoidconversations of race and racism all
together, because it makes us feel badwhen talking about race and racism.
There are White people whohyper fixate on race and racism
to maintain White dominance.
Uh, we see this in the greatreplacement conspiracy theory.
(09:02):
Some White people believe thatnothing good comes from talking
about race and doing so only makesthe problem worse for everyone.
Some White people are quick to point outrace to silence, conversations of racism.
For example, "why do you haveto make everything about race?"
Or "my stepdaughter is Asian.
So.
dot dot dot."
These four points, intrusive recollection,avoidance, negative connotations and
(09:24):
mood, and alterations and arousaland reactivity have been going on for
decades, centuries, even creating anenormous distress within White people.
We don't know what lifewould be like without them.
And yet all of these points are thecriteria for textbook PTSD symptoms.
Do we, as individuals havePTSD around race and racism?
(09:46):
Yes.
And no.
Yes, shame and supremacy culturehave made individuals do some
really regretful and heinous things.
These events and actions can and havecreated a level of stuckness for many
White people, unable to move past the painthat we've caused or bear witness to, or
feel like we've not been able to prevent.
(10:07):
And also because this form ofstuckness has gone on for so long,
we've begun to understand it asnothing more than White culture.
In reality, so much of Whiteculture is a trauma response.
A response to the pain andstruggle as we were fleeing in
Europe, before we immigrated.
But also a response to theintergenerational trauma, our bodies hold.
(10:28):
A current and historical response andPITS we have from perpetrating failing
to prevent the violence of other Whitepeople or bearing witness, to acts against
people of Color that transgress deeplyheld moral beliefs and expectations.
As we know it today, Whiteculture is built around PTSD and
responses to that traumatic stress.
(10:48):
Because PTSD symptoms are held withinthose who have the social power
to enact racist actions, *Whitepeople*: this becomes known as PITS.
A vast majority of White people holdperpetration induced, traumatic stress.
The primary intention of The Spillwayis to help White people acknowledge
our individual and collective PITS findhealing and build the White culture
(11:09):
that's not a tremendous trauma response.
But one of compassion, empathy,patience, and understanding.
The paradox of being Whitein America is that we are
simultaneously the perpetratorsand the victims of race and racism.
And by exploring and understandingthese stressors, we can know
our role as "victims" in quotes.
(11:31):
However, understanding that wehold these PITS helps us to know
our role as the perpetrator too.
Jenny (11:38):
So
we-- you talk a lot about in thefirst couple of episodes, um, about
how we are similar and different.
You and I.
One of the things that we differ on isthe belief that everyone is redeemable.
(12:02):
I struggle with that.
Uh, you, you live it and embodyit, but I, I struggle with that.
Loran (12:09):
What do you struggle with?
Jenny (12:12):
Um, Well, I just don't, I just don't believe that necessarily.
I think there's people who--and I think redemption hinges
on the person wanting it.
Right?
And I don't think everybody does.
Um, and so I don't believethat people, everyone is.
(12:35):
And that's one of the reasons I'm here.
Loran (12:37):
Hmm
Jenny (12:38):
Because I w I want to try to understand that point of view more.
Um, also, you know, I also don't believethat there are good and bad people.
Like I don't, I don't believe that.
I think there's a wide varietyof folks who are complex and
(13:02):
do things for complex reasons.
Um, But I also definitely stand--stand in this camp of like, You know,
somebody will say something and I'llbe like, "oh, okay, you're going to
be over there in that group for me."
Um, but also with PITS, it's hard becauseI know that I'm part of that, right?
(13:26):
Like, so having that grace for myselfmeans I should have it for others.
And that's really hard.
I feel like both of the these mini-sodesare me being like, "no, it's hard.
I don't want
to!"
Um, yeah, that, and that's like, your whole thing is holding space for.
(13:52):
You know, perpetrators in quotes,
Loran (13:56):
right.
holding that frustration.
Yeah, for sure.
Jenny (13:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's hard to look into it andbe like, oh, I'm part of that also.
That's difficult.
Loran (14:06):
Well, the thing that I think makes it easier for me to access
it is the concept of moral injury.
That it is either perpetrating,failing to prevent, or even
just bearing witness to it.
That has an impact on me.
And I think that those last two: failing to prevent and bearing witness. (14:22):
undefined
I think are how we talk a lotabout race and racism today.
We see these like microaggressions or wesee these online comments that are rooted
in ignorance or confusion, and sometimesjust straight up disgust and racism.
(14:47):
Um, and a lot of White people nowwill just check out, "oh, Nope.
I don't have to do that.
That's not my work.
I'm checking out," but I,but "I'm witnessing it.
And I also didn't fail to prevent it.
I'm not intervening."
And so it creates a moral injury withinus because we see that it still goes
on, but we're not interrupting it.
Jenny (15:07):
And a lot of that's done through social media.
I feel like now so much, I feellike more than in person, maybe.
Loran (15:14):
Oh, 100%.
Well, not 100%, but yes, yes.
What you're saying?
Yes.
Like we're also doing anin-person too when you,
I didn't mean
100%.
Yeah.
Sorry.
Jenny (15:26):
Um, no, I, I know what you mean.
Like yeah.
It happens in real life, real
Loran (15:31):
time.
But the majority of thetime it is on social
media
Jenny (15:34):
But social media is how we, especially during COVID how
we all interacted with each other.
Loran (15:39):
Yes.
Yes.
Jenny (15:41):
Because that's all we could do all we could do.
Loran (15:43):
All we could do.
Jenny (15:44):
Sorry.
I digress.
Loran (15:46):
No, you're not digressing at all.
You're gressing.
That's perfect.
Um, but those two pieces.
Make the most sense to me as towhy and how racism still impacts
me as a White person, because Isee other White people acting out
of pocket and acting real messy.
And if I don't intervene or if I don'tlike, if I'm not failing to prevent, then
(16:09):
I feel bad that I didn't do anything.
Right.
And I feel shitty.
And that doesn't mean that I'm a victim.
Right.
Um, but it does mean bylike a textbook definition.
It means victim, but I'm not--I'm not a helpless victim.
I think so often when weuse the word "victim," we
associate it with helplessness.
Jenny (16:28):
Right.
Loran (16:29):
Uh, and so I've always kind of struggled with using that language
on The Spillway (16:32):
"perpetrator" and "victim," but it is, I think the
easiest thing for folks to tap into.
Jenny (16:38):
Right.
You're not being victimized, right.
Like, instead of, yeah, like Ithink more when you're a victim.
Something happening to you from somebodyelse in a very direct way is how I, I
mean, I don't know what the textbookdefinition is exactly, but that's
like when you're scrolling throughFacebook and you see somebody being
(17:01):
messy, as you said, which is great.
I think that's wonderful.
Um, not them being messy, but likethat term, um, when you scroll
through, through social media, yousee some, a White person being messy.
They're not being victimized.
Right.
So that's, that's what I think thatthat's where that difference lies.
And you're also not being victimizedby watching it and not doing anything.
(17:23):
Right.
Oh, that's what I mean.
Yeah.
Sorry.
I missed that part, but yeah.
Yeah.
You're not being victimized.
You're experiencing moral injury,
Loran (17:32):
correct.
Right.
Jenny (17:33):
But you're not like a victim in that sense.
Loran (17:36):
In a helpless sense, yeah.
Jenny (17:38):
Right?
Like you could do something.
But you didn't.
Loran (17:41):
Right,
Jenny (17:41):
But that doesn't mean that it didn't affect you
Loran (17:45):
In social justice discourse.
White people are not supposedto have full-time jobs
dismantling White supremacy.
It's either part-timework or it's a hobby.
Um, you can bring it intoparts of your job, but.
It's not a thing that can orshould put food on your table.
(18:07):
And I think in soundbite activism,this makes a lot of sense.
Cause the soundbite has always beenit's unethical to perpetrate harm
and then profit off of that harm.
We've heard this over and over again,and we even talked about it last episode.
And that narrative I think isbuilt in to the core argument
of shame that White people arenever victims of race and racism.
(18:28):
White people are onlyperpetrators of race and racism.
Like we are not impactednegatively by racism,
Jenny (18:34):
and this is different than reverse racism, right quick.
That's not, we're not talking about
that.
Loran (18:40):
Thank you for saying that.
That is not what we're saying at all.
I'm saying that this is what, uh,this is what destroys our humanity.
This is, this is moral injury.
This is perpetrationinduced, traumatic stress.
Whenever we have that, like that fightor flight feeling that comes up when
people start talking about race or racism,that's us being impacted by racism.
(19:01):
And this is where I like there's "hurts."
And then there's "harms."
And to me, a hurt isn't as,as, as deep cutting as a harm.
Does that make sense?
Like I'm, I'm hurt by somethingrather than I've been harmed by.
Harmed feels more long-term.
Jenny (19:16):
Oh, I see.
Um, yeah, I guess I've never thoughtabout it before, but that seems true.
Feels true.
Loran (19:22):
So the brilliant Clementine Morrigan--
Jenny (19:27):
Genius.
Loran (19:28):
Differentiates "hurt' and "harm."
And I think it's actually reallyapical-- applicable to the
conversation that we're having here.
And Clementine says, "Every time youare hurt is not an example of harm.
People do not need to be accountablefor hurting your feelings or
behaving in ways you don't like.
There's a difference between someoneacting in the ways that violate
(19:50):
your boundaries and someone actingin ways that end up hurting you.
For example, it might reallyhurt you for your partner to
end their relationship with you.
Or to be unable or unwilling tomeet a particular need of yours.
That will hurt.
And you will have the right to feelhurt, but they haven't harmed you and
(20:10):
they don't need to be accountable.
Disagreements conflicts, mismatched needsand boundaries, and all sorts of normal
human interactions can result in hurt.
That doesn't mean anyone hasdone anything wrong or has
anything to be accountable for.
It's a good thing to be considerateand show concern and care when we have
hurt someone's feelings, but that isnot the same as taking responsibility
(20:34):
for having done something wrong.
It is not wrong to have boundariesto disagree, to be in conflict.
And you don't need toapologize for these things.
A lot of the discourse onharm and accountability
encourages codependent relating.
It's normal for other people'sboundaries and differences
to bring up feelings of hurt.
That doesn't mean they've caused harm.
(20:56):
And so when I think about the hurtversus harm with White people and racism
and how we are impacted, we are hurt.
We are hurt, but we are not seeking,nor should we seek the accountability
of folks of Color in that hurt.
Right?
Jenny (21:13):
Yeah no.
Loran (21:14):
Absolutely not.
Jenny (21:15):
Absolutely not.
Loran (21:16):
If anything, we are accountable for that hurt and that's where we are
simultaneously perpetrators and victimsbecause we are hurting ourselves.
Like cancel culture is perhapsnothing more than untreated and
unchecked moral injury bonding.
Cancel culture and conspiratorial culture.
It makes so much more sense to mewhen I understand them and access
them as moral injury culture.
(21:38):
And because the injury goes untreatedunacknowledged or like unchecked,
people get stuck there and thenit morphs into a trauma response.
Jenny (21:46):
What a mind fuck.
Loran (21:47):
Isn't it?
And so that to me iswhere really keeping in
that White people are hurt by thisWhite people are impacted by this.
And because we have to be accountableto ourselves and by our own actions,
we have to be doing this work too.
Right.
I know, it's just reallyfreaking frustrating.
That's when I know that I'mfrustrated, I won't cuss.
(22:09):
I will use "freaking"
Jenny (22:13):
just so gosh, darn frustrating.
Loran (22:42):
Dagnabbit!
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