Focus Group: White Men [part two]

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Loran (00:00):
This episode is two and a half hours long.
And we did that by design.
Very few people are going to commit toa two and a half hour episode if they
don't know what they're signing up
for.
If you're
here and you continue to listen, this isn't your
first episode of The Spillway.
Welcome back.
And don't worry.
We have breaks plannedthroughout the episode.

(00:22):
I mean, it took Jennyand I about three weeks.
Just to record this whole thing.
I just want to editorialize here for amoment in between the getting to know
you segment and the actual conversation.
If you haven't listened to part one, youwill have no idea what's going on here.
We are not going to recap part one,and we haven't constructed part two

(00:44):
to exist as a standalone episode.
And the purpose here is to show howsuch a surface level interaction
is like really racially loaded.
And if you missed the intros, thenyou've really missed the surface.
Because in part two, we reallystart to see how, when we talk
about race and racism, we bring ourbiases to the table and to be clear,

(01:05):
everyone has a bias and inclinationfor against someone or something.
And with these biases, I want tobring two very important pieces
to the top of this conversation.
First, this is a slice of aslice of who these White men are.
This is by no means these men'sfull selves or characters.

(01:26):
This is a 60 minute windowinto someone's life.
Ultimately, this is a blip of aflash in the timeline of their life.
Secondly, this is a timestamp ofwho they are, were anyone with
Facebook memories enabled to knowthe shit we said earlier in our
lives can be an absolute cringe fast.

(01:49):
We met with these men fiveweeks ago from the time that
we've published this episode.
And within those five weeks,mass murders have occurred in
Buffalo, New York in Uvalde Texas.
The Supreme court has decimated thecornerstone of our justice system by
eliminating starry decisis through theleaked Dobbs v Jackson Women's Health
Organization, preliminary ruling.

(02:09):
I mean, the world is just differentthan it was five weeks ago.
And if I know and hold it,the whole world is different.
And I know that this is true, andI know that these men have changed,
grown and evolved since then to.
You don't know these men any more thanJenny and I do what we do know is that

(02:30):
what they're saying, isn't somethingnew or something we haven't heard
before these men are merely showing uswhat they were taught to believe from
the larger swath of White culture.
And do they represent allof White male culture?
No.
Most of it, maybe it's all subjective.
I will say that this conversation iswhat happens when we speak quickly.

(02:51):
And this focus groupis like that by design.
We are here to listen and respondto soundbites that are circulating
within White male culture.
Jenny and I have taken five weeks totry to fully process this interview.
And even then our takeaways arelimited by our own education, our
training subcultures and worldviews.

(03:12):
We don't interject to shameor ridicule these mountain.
Let's be very clear.
We interject to slow down to unpackto better understand what people are
saying so that we can redirect moreof White culture into compassion,
a empathy and understanding.

(03:32):
I mean, I have come to love these men,and I also wonder who they are as one of
the participants says, the more likelywe are to understand each other, the
less likely we are to harm each other.
We can't fully understand each of thesefour minutes individuals and 60 minutes.

(03:53):
Well, and also if you think, youknow, these literal men and who they
actually are in real life fuck off, theybravely agreed to talk with us so that
we can have this conversation today.
If you come for them, you're committingto setting the movement back.
If we can't make space for otherWhite people to be vulnerable
and show up in the work, we haveto meet people where they're at.

(04:16):
And with that, let's continue
on.

(04:40):
do we want to warm up a little bit or we want to dump right in the deep end.
What do people prefer?
Maybe so we can get to knoweach other a little bit.
Our speeds.
We can kind of weigh in a littlebit, rather than jumping right
in, or what do you prefer?

T. (04:53):
I'm happy to jump in.

Loran (04:56):
Let's jump in.
So I'm going
to share my screen
for a second, because I want you to see what I'm saying.
As I asked the question,
I bring up the covid.cdc.gov website, which holds nearly all
of the data you could ever want onCOVID-19 in the U S and the demographic
breakdowns by race ethnicity.

(05:18):
You're met with a, well, atleast to me, a surprising graft
on the left side of the screen.
Uh, there are these cases ofCOVID-19 and on the right side,
are the deaths by COVID-19.
The left side of the screen shows thatthe percentage of White people in the us
is more than the percent of White peoplewho have contracted COVID and that's by

(05:39):
6.4%, there are more White people thanWhite people who have contracted COVID.
And this includes repeat infectionsto a similar but lesser degree.
The same is true for Asian and Blackpopulations, but the opposite for
Hispanic, native and biracial populations.
Then on the right side of thescreen, it shows that White people

(06:02):
disproportionately make up more COVID-19deaths relative to the percent of
White people in the U S population.
Let me put this another way.
White people.
For 62.5% of all COVID deaths.
Yet we make up 60 point11% of the population.
This 2.39% disproportionate impact is morethan every other race, ethnicity combined.

(06:30):
For example, Asian-Americans make up 3.3%of deaths and 5.7, 6% of the us population
or Black Americans make up 13.5% of deathsand 12.5, 4% of the overall population
making a 0.9, 6% disproportionate impact.
But I just want to point out thatthe percent of White people in the

(06:52):
us is more than the percent of Whitepeople who have contracted COVID-19
by 6.4% and also White people accountfor 62.5% of all COVID deaths.
Yet we make up 60 point11% of the population.
Again, this link is in the shownotes, it's updated weekly.

(07:14):
So these percentage points willchange ever so slightly over time,
but check it out, especially ifyou're a visual learner like I am.
So this is the CDC COVID tracker, uh,and it says, uh, showing that White
people are the only race of peoplethat are less likely to contract COVID.
However, while we make up about 60%of the population, we also account

(07:39):
for 62% of all that's related to.
So why do you think White people aredying of COVID at disproportionate rates?

T. (07:49):
I

Tej (07:49):
mean, I'm sure it's racism within the healthcare system

T. (07:52):
has a lot to do

Sam (07:53):
with it.

T. (07:57):
Uh, my first thought was just that I wonder if it's accurate and if all
deaths of Color are actually reportedor looked at and specified to the extent
that ones in, um, uh, White deathsare, but I couldn't quite hear you.
The other responses from the forest.
Sorry, Sam,

Sam (08:20):
what did you say?
I had said, I think that it's isolatedin the sense of like, there's a luxury
of being able to isolate yourself.
I was like, so your grademotivated your grade of whatever.
You're afraid of you sit andyou die like alone, right?
You don't have that exposureto like things that would, uh,

(08:41):
improve your immune system.

T. (08:44):
Oh, that's interesting that community.
of Color are more likely to stick withthe community is just as isolating,
therefore the pressure, the protectivefactors of the communities, or what's,

Jenny (09:03):
I just want to, like, maybe we should highlight that they
misunderstood what your question was.
I know we're going to get to that,but I feel like at this point we
should probably just drop in realquick and be like, so, cause people
might be like, what's happening right
now.

Loran (09:20):
I was thinking actually of cutting this part, but I thought
it was it's so interesting to mehow they immediately go to racism.

Jenny (09:27):
Oh no, we should keep it.
Absolutely.
I just was like, oh, maybe weshould mention just a little,
just a little be bap in.
Okay.
I'm done.
Okay, bye.

Sam (09:41):
Um, one of my favorite things about, uh, Hispanic cultures is
they hang out on the streets.
And then listen to music, then theyjust chat and like living in Spanish.
And I'm like, that was my favoritething to do people almost street.
Um,

T. (09:58):
I am a firm believer in the power of like community, like in terms of
recovery from trauma and things like that.
So, yeah, it makes sense to me, althoughI think it's hard to, I mean, just with
this data to, to decide on the cause, but

J. (10:12):
so to be clear, could you repeat Loran, the specifics about
the data I'm looking at it onthis, trying to make sense of it
all shouldn't parents, not higher.
There's a higher proportion ofdeaths in White communities than in
communities of Color or, or the opposite,

Loran (10:28):
not all communities
of Color.
Um, where did my questions go here?
Oh,
wait people, so it's the two next to each other.
The left and right.
Are important to keep in mind.
Uh, White people are less likely tocontract COVID, but are more likely
to die of COVID related complications.

J. (10:52):
That makes more sense.
Okay.
The way it was framedearlier, I was a bit confused.
Okay.
So less likely tocontract that makes sense.
Given like privilege and Whitecommunities, to be able to isolate, to
have access to vaccines, um, et cetera,but they increase the likelihood of dying
when contracting it to me says that thereare more folks who aren't vaccinated

(11:12):
contracting it, who are unwilling toseek help, but that is completely.
Anecdotally.
Yes.

Loran (11:23):
Yeah.
It's that, it's the two part of like Samand T's got the first question and Jay
and teach, wait, Salman T got the firstquestion and then J and T we're like what?
Hold on.
And you can hear everyone'slike the click happen when the
question's asked differently.

(11:45):
But I think even when you lookat that data, White people are
dying at disproportionate ratesbecause while we make up like 60%
of the population, it's like 63%of those deaths are COVID related.
I think I'm saying it wrong thatCOVID depths White people make up
63% of COVID deaths, even thoughwe make up 60% of the population.

(12:07):
And so it was a 3% surplusof things happening.
And so it really is.
There's like two questions.
And it's interesting to see wholatched on to which question.
Um,

Jenny (12:19):
what I found very interesting was the, like, I'm a big believer in
community when we're talking about,well, just thinking about their
answers from the, you know, rapid-fireish questions that we did at the
beginning and they're all like, yeah.
Community.

(12:40):
And then it's like none oftheir answers pointed to that.
They live in community.
And all of them, all ofthem are suburby, uh, type.
Um, it's just, it's just interesting.
And I'm sure everyone does this.
It's like inconsistencies where we're at.
We like profess one thing when we'reasked about it, but then, you know, if we

(13:04):
look at our lives, we're like, oh wait.
Right.
Or that really beautiful moment

Loran (13:08):
that we had with Amy Hillyer and like the third episode,
fourth episode, third episode
about inconsistency and how none of us have like a consistent ideology, but
we keep professing on as if like, oh yeah,no, like I'm totally consistent in that.
It's like, everything just keepsmoving and playing together.

(13:29):
But they're like these White men whohave all named to a large part, like a
level of isolation, and yet here theyare talking about the power of community.
Yeah.
That's interesting.
That's a great catch
also

Jenny (13:46):
though, they did show up to the focus group.
Right.
Which
in a way is
a form of community, a form
of community.
How albeit, you know, it's anonymous,there's a lot of caveats there.
Right.
But, um, so I think that want, is therethat I'm I think that belief is there.

(14:10):
But whether or not their livesactually are live that way.
Right?
Yeah.
And

Loran (14:16):
this also, I think, shows the, the weakness of this research
and that it's not immersive.
It really is this kind of liketap into focus group, share what
you want to share and we'll haveto believe it on face value.
And so, yeah, just to have to hold andfind these inconsistencies, we will

(14:37):
never know what the consistent themeis that people will probably think
consistent the most inconsistency.
Um, yeah, but we're not goingand living in their house for a
month and then reporting back.
No,
no, I, I don't, I don't know if this is the way it's
going to go in that direction.

Jenny (14:54):
Well, and you know, you don't have a lab, right.
So, or a ton of people likerunning out to neighborhoods and
knocking on doors or calling folks,or, you know what I mean yet?
Right.
So you to again, start somewhere,
start somewhere.

(15:14):
And these folks were kind enough to show up and be
as vulnerable as they could be.
So there's that?
Yeah, let's do it.

Sam (15:25):
Or you could say that on Jane's point, you could
say that if the vaccine is.
A determining factor in dying permit.
Then these people who have the luxuryof not getting the vaccine, right.
Say they don't want to, forwhatever reason, but they have
more financial mobility, right.

(15:47):
Their jobs might not force them to getthe vaccine, the beards and all the bag.

T. (15:52):
Is there data on that?
Like, uh, uh, broken down by race, onpeople, unwilling to get the vaccine.
Does anybody know?

Sam (16:03):
I'm really just talking to them, like the job that I work for.
Um, it's like a construction company,but there are a lot of people
that aren't, uh, I don't know thatjust, they don't, don't give it up.
Like even if people just as Whitepeople give a debt and then no, one's
forcing them to get that vaccine.

Loran (16:25):
Is there a reason?
Sorry.
Yeah, go fuck her.

Jenny (16:34):
Oh my gosh.
I texted you.
It's going through it says me speak.
Okay.
You go, you

Loran (16:42):
go, um, inconsistency this like this luxury of not wanting
to talk about it.
Um, but then
earlier Sam's like, wait, people only want to talk about race and racism.
And so yeah.
It's like what has happened?

Jenny (16:58):
Right.
And he also, I hope this is right.
You can cut it out if I'm wrong.
But I, I also remember him saying thathe works with a lot of people of Color,

Loran (17:11):
but most come in
later than doesn't know.

Jenny (17:14):
I thought he said it in the beginning part.

Loran (17:17):
Oh, maybe I think so.
Yeah.
He does talk about working
with folks of Color, right?

Jenny (17:21):
Yeah.
And then he's saying like, people thatI work, I'm talking about, the people
that I work with that don't give a damn

Loran (17:31):
wait.
Do you think that Sam is critiquingfolks of Color right now?
Oh
gosh, no.
Uh, well,

Jenny (17:37):
I don't know.
I just thought I wouldn't have to,you know, in case anybody else caught
that, because I don't know if he,I don't, well, we should make sure.
Um, definitely we should listen, you know,go back and listen to that and then if
it doesn't apply, just cut the shit out.
But, um,
yeah.
Wow.

Loran (17:57):
Yeah.
But I think also, you know, you couldbe referring to White people, um,
because the, those incidents, the deathrates, if I remember correctly, it
was like native and Black communitiesboth had like high incidences of
contracting and of death, like out,out of like disproportionate levels.

(18:23):
Um, but like Latina wasn't part of that
Asian wasn't part of that.
And we don't know as like racial, uh, the demography of, uh, the
people at this construction company.
Right, right, right,

Jenny (18:36):
right.
Yeah.
So maybe it's wrong to be like,oh, this thing, but I just
was like, whoa, that's interesting.
Yeah.
Another limitation

Loran (18:46):
of the research, as you know, with it being anonymous route, we can
only go off of any of the informationthat's been shared with us and it kind
of like stops there.
Yeah.
You're ready.

Jenny (18:58):
Let's
do it.
Let's dive in

Loran (19:00):
that.
Uh, wait folks, aren't givinga damn Sam and your experience.

Sam (19:05):
Uh, I think it's just because they can write, like, I mean, I
think, I think that if you reallywant to dive into it, it's the you're
brought into this, this idea that,um, you can't trust the government.
Right?
Like, it's, it's like this weird, thisweird dynamic that I'm seeing, which is
like, you can't trust the government, butyet you want the government to save you.

(19:28):
Right.
So like you distrust this vaccine.
Right.
So you won't get it, but then you're,you're asking for, uh, I don't know
how to word really any of this.
Right.
You're like asking usessentially everything that
they Marshall Washington for.
Right.
Like you're, you're, you're arguingthat like you're a guy should stay in.

(19:51):
Right.
There's all the people that I workedwith were like Trump supporting people.
Um, and they were just like,no one can tell me what to do.
Right.
And like, it's, it's, it's just, it'sweird to me how it sounds like so many
people want the government to stepin and do something, but then they're
also saying like, but I want to be leftalone or I don't tell me what to do.

(20:13):
Right.
But the government's allabout telling you what to do.

Loran (20:21):
How does this differ from what Sam was saying during his intro of,
I don't you to tell me what to do.
I don't want to tell you what to do.
Let's just all what we want to do.
And

Jenny (20:34):
then he's like, well, if you don't want the government to save you, it's
that weird paradox, not weird paradox.
That sort of paradox is God.
I hate when I do that, is that paradoxof folks, especially from the right,
shall we say, um, voting, wanting thingsfor themselves, but voting against

(20:58):
those very things that they want.
Right.
Right.
He's like embodying that.
Right.
That's so
interesting.
Let's go back.
Okay.

T. (21:10):
I see it as selfish, kind of what you're describing, but this
idea of like selfish privilege,I have a right to sort of have.
Viewpoints and to do things how Ithink they should be done and how
actually pissed off, like you have aright to like, contribute to the group
of people or community that you're apart of and harm it or, or help it.
Like, that's what your choice is.

(21:30):
In my opinion, I think that's, what'smissing in this country in general or
what I see a lot of it is a very selfishprivilege, like a stubborn privileged,
like, well, it's because it's my right.
I'm going to exercise it like in, in waysthat are decidedly harmful to others.

J. (21:48):
So you're saying like, even if Eve I'm going to exercise my right
on principle, even if that right.
Heart is me.
Yeah.

T. (21:55):
Or other people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think there's,

Jenny (22:01):
there's that thing again, of like in this country, you know what I mean?
Like that, that, that wall,like, this is what I see as an
outsider, you know what I mean?
I would've never have heard this
well, and it comes from my background.
Right.

(22:21):
Maybe I'm reading into it, but I just,I just like hear that tone of like,
well, that's what I see from over here.

Loran (22:30):
Yeah.
So for our move, even though Imoved here, when I was wet, like
less than 10 years old,
But I do think I really do love, I love that, that lens.
I really appreciate it of selfish,selfish privilege, because I
think that that's what it is.
But even then, like, I, I, going backto what we were saying, like previously,

(22:53):
like everyone should have privilege.
Like every, everyone shouldhave the ability to be
selfish.
Right.

Jenny (22:59):
It
should be.
Yeah.

Loran (23:02):
Um, you're doing it within like, um, uh, like a communal framework.
Like I'm not going to dosomething because I want to do
it, but it's going to harm you.
Like, that'd be awful.
Like you need to do what you need to doas long as it is like good for you and
the community like, oh, I want, yeah.
I mean, there's some reallyintense like straw man arguments.
You could use of like, oh, I want to kill

(23:24):
somebody.
Oh

Jenny (23:26):
yeah.
I guess you could.
Yeah.
You could go down that road ifyou want on it, but it's not going
to be pretty.
Yeah.
No, it's not.
No, because it's notgood for the community.
No, it's
not good for the community.
There's a huge

T. (23:37):
amount of like prince, like people doing things on principle
here that I've noticed that yeah.
The, that justify doingincredible harm to other people

J. (23:50):
and your experiences and that's in juxtaposition to your time
lived in multiple countries, right?

T. (23:55):
Yeah.
Well, it's, I mean, I'm S I'm thinkingspecifically of this sort of collectivist.
I think that's the right one.
Um, a society that, that is sort ofSoutheast Asia communities and Vietnam
and Cambodia, and as just somethingdifferent like this, something decidedly
different that I feel when I'm here, whichis this real selfishness, like it sort of

(24:17):
permeates every part of, sort of, yeah.
This discussion aboutprivilege and or COVID.
And like this sort of divisivenessto me is old focused on me.
Me, me, I have a right for this.
I should get this.
This is my, my expectations should be met.
It's just so selfish sounding

Sam (24:40):
and I'm.
Hmm.
Hmm.
So, um, so I've been readinga lot of, a lot of books, like
copious amount of books lately.
Um, and they're all like financesor they're all, um, people who, uh,
like Tony Robbins books, like, uh,unshakeable or, um, what is it five ways
to, I don't remember what it's called.
Right.
You're pulling Hill's think and growrich and running all these things.

(25:01):
And the common thread, like, um, evenlike the Almanac of devel rabbit camp
tune is a guy who seems like nobody knows.
Um, the common thread of thesebooks is that if you want to be
wealthy, you don't get it for free.
Right.
The law of averages might say that likesomeone wins the lottery somewhere, right?
Someone somewhere, it gets, youknow, something for free and there's

(25:24):
suddenly wealthy, but in general, theonly way that anyone becomes well.
Is by giving of yourself first.
And I think that we've lost sightof realizing that the reason
why people work human beingswork is not for the self, right?
You work so selfishly to giveyou yourself purpose, but you

(25:47):
work for your community, right?
And when that thread breaks, right,then you can no longer see how the
job that I do supports my community.
Then you float off into this hedonisticself, where it's all about me, me,
me, and then your advertisementsthat you receive, they train on that

(26:08):
and they enhance that your politicalleaders, they do the same thing.
Cause they're, they're also trying toget you to buy that right on all of
the stuff, uh, succeeds to separate youfrom what it really means to be human.
And you think that materialpossessions become that way.
Respect.
You need to respect this.

(26:28):
Look how great I am.
I have the, the orange spider.
I have the mansion.
I have the, the moviestar, you know, spouse.
What really like who's thehappiest person weirdly enough.
It's probably the person that like,that was their partner that they suck,
but they loved them to death or theycurse them out like every five seconds.
And they live in squalor and they love it.

(26:51):
And they have company overand everything's just warm and
walking to their households.
You can tell that they loveyou, even though they'll say,
look, be that your fault.

Jenny (27:04):
Um, sorry.
Um, it's very Trumpy of him to me.
Like I'm reading a lot of books, so manybooks, a copious amount of, you can not
put that in there if you want, or you,
I actually

Loran (27:17):
have my notes.
I have pathos written out becausethis human is trying so hard to like
gain legitimacy through character.
And so you should listento me because of my pathos.
It's like, I'm boring out.
It's like on
point.
And like, we all do it.
Right.

(27:38):
Yeah.
But I just, I really love that doublingdown of, oh, I don't want to be seen
as, or received as like an uneducatedTrump voter, which is a very large,
very real stereotype that exists.
Multitudes, multitudes.

Jenny (27:56):
Yes.
This is true.
Something.
I didn't hear the first few timesthat I listened to this, but I'm
hearing now that we're listening in.
Um, and it was going to say incommunity, but that's not what I mean.
Um, is he says like, why doescommunity have to be in squalor?

(28:19):
And they're like foul mouth.

Loran (28:22):
Yeah, yeah.
Fell.
Now they have a lot of like disdainwith there's so much love, I think,
undercurrent within it, to me, Ithink it's this really beautiful
portrait that is like the antikeeping up with the Joneses.
It's like this ideal of perfection,like calling someone like sweetheart

(28:44):
or babe, uh, kind of like critiquingthe Instagram life, everything like
actually real life is like a Reddit life,rather this like really deep cutting
snarky, but homey thoughtful place.
Uh, but it's also just like really rough

(29:05):
around the edges.
Yeah.
Just

Jenny (29:06):
super rough around the edges.
That's
true.
I guess that's true.
I don't think I didn't like

Loran (29:10):
receive it as squalor in terms of like how it can be used in this like
classist way of like impoverished kind
of squalor.
Is that how you received it?
Yes.
Okay.
Yeah.
Huh.
Yeah.
Maybe we just received a different way.

Jenny (29:30):
Oh no, for sure.
But I just don't know why Iparticularly received it that way.

Loran (29:35):
Well, anything to Sam was also talking about like, uh, I
think like with what Fred jealouswas talking about on the second
episode about being a success object.
Like so
much of the, the White heteronormative script has been
about objectivity all of our,our worth being conditional and

(29:57):
the movie star wife, the aright
spider,
what else did he say?
It was so specific.
Clearly there's been some thoughtput into this or someone said
from somewhere else,
but I do really love this idea that we don't work for ourselves.
We work for our community
and the further we get
disconnected from that idea, that reality we get into

(30:21):
this situation where it is about
me, me, me,
I think that that's where it's like showing me, Sam is multitudes of
like, I want to do what I want to do a,you're not going to tell me what I want
to do, but also I work with the community.
That's how I'm receiving itas I'm listening to it for
like time.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Jenny (30:40):
I can see that.
I don't know how I,
yeah,
I can't put my finger on it though.
I think also you says a lot ofthings in a sentence and a lot,
not, that's not a criticism to him.
I just mean that he says a lotof things and I don't always.

(31:01):
Like, I'm still thinking about the lastthing he said and he's on another tracker.
Eddie.
Yeah.
There were two very differentthoughts within the space.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I, I think, I just I'm like,wait, what my brain doesn't have.
Hasn't had.
Yeah.
The first part is about

Loran (31:17):
that collectivist society.
We work for each other and thenthere's that second part of
when we don't
work for a collectivist society, when we're working for our
own, we turn into success, success,objects, and our worth is conditional.
And so you have to respectme because of all of these
pieces that I have.
Yeah.
That demand yourattention on your respect.

(31:41):
Should we keep going?
Yeah, let's do it.

J. (31:43):
Okay.
How'd you mind?
Do you have anything to add?
I have a thought that I'm going totry to connect some of these pieces,

Sam (31:48):
but I don't want.
What I

Tej (31:52):
was wondering then is if, um, we're talking about this, this idea of, well,
you know, I have the right to not take,if it is indeed a correlation of lack
of vaccinations in White populationsthat are leading to increase deaths or
percentage-wise anyway, is that thenhaving to do, or is that a way of White

(32:15):
supremacy turning around and biting us inthe ass for, you know, I have the right
to do this and it's like, well, yeah,well that might not be good for you.
Is that, is that kind of what we could be?
I don't know if that's whatthe data is suggesting.

J. (32:29):
I, yeah, I think, I think that makes sense.
I have a thought I'm going to start witha bold statement and then I'm going to
go backwards and then move back to it.
Um, I think Whiteness is killingWhite people and here's, here's my
thought that embedded in what she wassaying earlier about individualist
versus collectivist cultures andstates is an incredibly individ

(32:51):
individualist culture, or Whitenessis seen as the pinnacle and White
culture is extremely individualistic.
We actually don't see White cultureas a thing that even exists because
White people are seeing justsimply as, as individuals, right.
They're not seen as a collective,whereas people of Color are
often seen as a monolith.

(33:12):
And inside that individualistic.
Way of thinking there's thatprivilege that's baked into.
I can make my own choices aboutwhat's right for me, because I'm
an individual, I'm not part of acollective, I'm not part of a community.
And I have the privilege andthe right to make those choices.
And my choice, I don't careif it affects other people,
because what matters is the self.

(33:33):
And I think that individualistic cultureand Whiteness is so completely bound up.
We couldn't even tease them apart if wetried and it's that it's killing White
people.

Loran (33:43):
Can we complicate this just to add in gender into this?
How does gender and race impact,

Jenny (33:53):
uh, you were saying that in real time and I started laughing,
um,

Loran (33:57):
J just became a teacher again.
I love that.
It was like, I'm going tohave a stapled statement.
I'm going to go into it,then I'm gonna come back.
It's so cute.
So

Jenny (34:08):
cute.
Has he said that thing yet?
Did I miss it where he goes?
I hear what you're saying.
So your favorite part,
and it's said with like the utmost sincerity, like he's like, I am
absolutely hearing what you're saying.
It's not backhanded at all, whichis, if I said it, it would be,

Loran (34:31):
I think Jay is touching on.
To me, why it's so important to framethis focus group is not for individuals
talking, but they are talking as acommunity because we, as White people
love to center individualized experiences.
And we miss the forest for thetrees because we're saying, oh

(34:52):
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
This is just one person's experience.
It can't be this otherperson's experience.
And that to me is why sharingthese focus groups is so
important because it's showing
other people that there are others in the
world who act and think like you do, and that you are not alone

(35:14):
in your experience or in your
identity.
Because I feel like that's what silosus so often I'm like, oh, I've thought
this, but I've never said it out loud.
And so to have someone else say itout loud, you're like, oh wait other
people think that too, maybe I cantalk about this more regularly.
Maybe I should talk about racea little bit more or be more
comfortable talking about it becauseI'm not alone in my experience.

(35:37):
That to me is where the
focus groups are so important.
Yeah.
No, that makes sense.
I'm also thinking about
what Jay said.
I'm trying to think if there's anything
that I wanted to touch on on that.
Was there anything
for you in Jason?
I don't

Jenny (35:48):
think so.
I think I might need to stop
overloading.
Yeah.
Cause I think things are not filtering.
I think they're just.
I'm missing stuff and I don't want to miss
stuff.

Loran (36:01):
Yeah, no, that's totally fair.
Why don't we stop this?
Why don't we?
And we stopped recording that day.
Well, Loran, why didn't you justseamlessly tie this episode together?
Why are you even showing usthis behind the scenes moment?
Because this work isn't momentary, it'sa cultural shift that is supposed to

(36:24):
be sustainable of long lasting shift.
We have to go at a pace thatfeels good to our bodies.
It's to our hearts, to our heads,and importantly, listen to our full
selves when we need to tap out.
However momentarily.
I think it's critical to show thatJenny and I have at this point in the
show catalog roughly nine hours ofwork that we've published and probably

(36:47):
an initial 10 hours that we've hadto leave on the cutting room floor.
Just for the sake of time, thisexcludes the hundreds of hours of
prep and editing that happens beforewe even have to get to the mic.
When you're hosting a show,people look to you as if you have
all of your shit together andthat this just comes easy to us.
No, no, this shit can be exhaustingbecause it requires that we

(37:11):
show up to every single moment.
Not only that in each moment,we're stretching ourselves to be
vulnerable, to be compassionateand curious all at the same time.
And as White people socialized in Whiteculture, this is new for our bodies too.
And part of our experience of being Whitehas meant that we don't always have to
show up or we can show up when we want to.

(37:33):
We can check out of the conversationfor days and weeks, sometimes years and
decades, because we have had the socialadvantage of being able to tap in and out
of race and racism at our own discretion.
And while that's increasinglynot the case, it is so, so,
so, so, so helpful to name.
Hey, I too need a breakand I'll be right back.

(37:57):
So here's your friendly reminder,pause this podcast, not just the
episode, the whole damn series.
If you need a moment or two to catchyour breath and recalibrate, and remember
who we are in this for the long haul.
So the longer we take our breaks, thelonger it takes us to get back into
the mental, emotional muscle memory.

(38:18):
We came back together four days laterto pick up the recording in between
another interview with our next guest.
Regardless, let's jump
back in.
Can we complicate this just toscope, add in gender into this.
How does gender and race impact eachother like it because you're a man.
Do you see being like differentlyor because you're White, you

(38:40):
see being a man different.
Well, I mean, both are on top of the

Tej (38:47):
food chain, obviously.

Sam (38:50):
So I feel like they are

Tej (38:50):
intertwined.
I'm not sure how.

J. (38:54):
Yeah.
I think for me, as a, as anindividual, my Whiteness makes me
feel like I belong everywhere andeverything, and every space is mine.
I can walk anywhereand I should feel safe.
I should be comfortable.
I have a belief that there'snowhere that I can't go, that I
shouldn't be afforded certain things.

(39:14):
Um, that's the Whiteness.
And then the maleness is liketaking up space, being big,
being dominant, being in control.
So then when I walk into those spaces,not only do I expect to be respected
in those spaces, but I also expectto be able to take up space, even
if it's not my space to take up.
And I don't mean that overtly.
I think that's a subconsciousthing that's going on.

(39:36):
I need that just happens becauseI'm a male and because I'm
White, I don't want to do that.
I'm not doing that consciously orpurposely, but I guarantee that that's
happening pretty much everywhere I go.

Jenny (39:50):
The food chain thing came up again.
I know you saw me right in the chat, but
yeah.
So there, so who I, CIS men are on top of the food chain three times, right?
White.
Straight man.

(40:12):
Can you get more than on top of the food chain?
Is it like the tea thing when he'snegative 42 on the Kinsey scale is
I think so.

Loran (40:20):
I think if you add class,
oh man, that's true.
Yeah.
If you had class, if you add inthe U S if you had class, if you
had Christian, uh able-bodied
yeah.

Jenny (40:33):
Oh my gosh.
You can just keep going.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.

Loran (40:40):
Those seem to be like the major ones.

Jenny (40:43):
Yeah.
Maybe Jay, like, you know, somebody whodoesn't experience the world or didn't
experience the world as he did, came tohim and said this, hello, this thing.
Yeah.
Right.

Loran (40:56):
Yeah.
I guess it's just, I'm receiving it outof the context of what he says later.
And I, like, I completely
forgot that he says that later on.
Or was it

Jenny (41:05):
later
that he says that

Loran (41:08):
he says, yeah, he says it towards the back, but that's um, I guess that's,
it's just interesting to hold and thatlike the context that like we require
of other people and of
ourselves when we're situating ourselves in the work, because they
don't think, and I think that, that goesback into the, um, dislike, the inherent
quality or the inherent nature of people.

(41:29):
And anything think thatthat's maybe where this yeah.
I think that's where thespeech back is coming for me.
Is that not all men take up space.
No, that's true.
Not all White people thinkeverything is theirs.
Right.
And so for him to say that it makes me feel like, oh, part of this feels
like this, um, this repetition of whatthe left does of just like holding onto

(41:52):
these talking points about what all Whitepeople do are all White or all men do.
Yeah.
So

Jenny (42:00):
I guess I'm coming back to win at the, at the beginning, when
we were talking about how we'reholding these stories as an example
of White men living in this culture.
And I was like, no individuals.
And now I feel like we're onthe flip side of that now.

(42:22):
I feel like I'm like group experience.
And you're like, but notall, you know what I mean?
I don't know.
I mean, again, it's like yousaid, I believe you said that
it's, you know, it's, uh, youknow, you can hold both, I guess.
Right.
We

Loran (42:36):
have to hope both anything.
Yeah.
That's what it is.
Yeah.
What is the majority experience,but also, um, it just feels
so dependent on what circles
you're running on.
Yeah,

Jenny (42:52):
sure does.
Yeah.
When you're in your safe space, Iremember you talked about, I remember you
talked about safe space versus healingspace when you're in your safe space.
That's the view with whichyou look at the world,
right?

Loran (43:10):
Well, I think one of the other things too is I was thinking recently, I
don't have a lot of says women in my life.
Um, like I think a lot of like thefeminine energy comes from non binary
folks, trans women, uh, uh, fluidfolks, um, like, yeah, I know CIS women.

(43:35):
Um, but because I know so few, if someonewere to tell me or say like, oh, like,
how are you showing up as a White woman?
Or like, what are the like keythings of like White womanhood
or womanhood in general?
I'd be like, well, I, I know three,well that I can probably say something
on, but like those three people thatcreate this like broader universalized

(43:57):
experience, I don't feel like it's a fair
jumper assessment to make.

Jenny (44:02):
And when you say feminine energy, like when you meet, when you
talk about femininity, what do you mean
by that?

Loran (44:09):
Um, something that is like not stereotypically or received
as perceived as male or masculine.
Yeah, maybe as I'm thinking thisthrough, maybe this is just like
our warmup and we
won't include this in the thing.

Jenny (44:29):
I think also too, you're probably in the Tristan
Headspace.
I have a little bit, I am a little bit,
so this, this might be not a good day to do
this one.
I think

Loran (44:41):
if we, I think we're okay to do this one.
Yeah.
I think we are.
I think I just maybe needed to havelike a word vomit and get myself caught
up to speed here because there's somereally good things that are said, but
also this is so discursive this littletangent that what I've taken us on.
So I like it doesn't feel likeit moves the focus group forward.

Jenny (45:06):
Gotcha.
Okay.
Let's start over that's kidney.

Sam (45:14):
And when you can't do that, do you feel that it's something
that you deserved to do, right.
If someone like resisted youfrom doing that, which would be.

J. (45:23):
Yeah.
Like if I'm, if I'm really honest aboutit, if I go into a space full of people,
of Color, whatever it may be, maybe it'smaybe it's like somewhere in Harlem.
I had, uh, you know, myfiance used to live in Harlem.
So I used to go to places inHarlem and I would walk into a
place or a restaurant or wherever.
And I would be one of the onlyWhite people there, if not
the only White person there.
And there was a piece of me, some deeppart of me that felt like that was wrong.

(45:47):
Like this shouldn't happenbecause everywhere else in
the world has been mined.
So why shouldn't that be mine too?
Like some piece of me has that.
I don't like to admit it, but it's true.

Jenny (46:00):
So I wonder, so he's telling the story and I'm like, I wonder where you
thinking that, oh, this, there shouldn'tbe this many Black people in one space,
or were you thinking, or this manypeople of Color in one space or were you
thinking, oh, Hey, no one looks like me.
And that's weird because yourlife is full of White folks, but

(46:25):
you know, no judgment on that.
I'm just saying like what?

Loran (46:29):
That's a really good
question.

Jenny (46:31):
I don't know if part of me just doesn't believe him.
Not, I'm not saying he's making a Februarysong, certainly thing, but part of me
just maybe thinks that maybe he waslike, oh, no one in here looks like me.
And also I have that experience too.
And I walk into spaces wherepeople are predominantly.
Uh, folks of Color where I'mlike, oh, should I not be here?

(46:54):
Right.
Like, is my body not, ismy body not welcome here?
Because you know, I'm, I don'tneed to be in this space.
Like there are other spaces where Ican go or my presence isn't hurting
people or making them uncomfortable.

Loran (47:12):
Right.
Well, well, I feel like ifit is a healing space yeah.
It is about asking about, um, if youshould be in that space or not, and
being really clear and transparent.
Um, but if it is a safe space,uh, or if it's a public space,
like a restaurant that feels
different, but do you think also, like he's talking about Harlem

(47:37):
and so
they're very specific geographical places in our world that are healing
spaces for very specific communities.
And so
I understand what he's saying of like, oh wait, I should be
able to come into this restaurant.

(47:58):
Um, just like anyone else,but also do you need to,
right.
Aren't there

Jenny (48:06):
other places that you can go.

Loran (48:10):
Like I think, okay.
So this actually makes me thinka lot about, um, bachelorette
parties and the gayborhood
and how, uh, so many, uh, straightsays women like flock to a gay bar,

(48:30):
uh,
during a bad show.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Drag drag up for, forbachelorette parties.
Um,
and as a queer
person, as non binary person, that always just feels a little bit
like, is your world so sad that youhave to come into this, like cornucopia

(48:51):
of love and vibrancy and the color?
Um,

Jenny (48:56):
there's also something really exciting about experiencing a world that
you are not supposed to be a part of,or you're not invited to be a part of.
At least I've found that like whenI was, when I only identified as
straight and I would go into queerspaces and I'd be like, oh, I don't

(49:22):
belong here, but this is a wicked fun.
Yeah.
I mean, that might be different,you know, depending on the.
Community you're walkinginto or the situation, but

Loran (49:33):
yeah, there's something that feels different about like being,
I think like, even as Jay's saying,like being someone's partner and going
into a restaurant together and beingone of the very few White people,
like that feels very different.
You going into, uh, like an LGBT bar, uh,with a friend or with a colleague, like
that feels very different than bringing in

(49:55):
your own culture
into someone else's culture and saying, oh no, no, no, no, no.
We actually need to focus in centralthis, but I need you to entertain
me either
through a drag show or through the cuisine that we're having.
I need to be entertainedby your other mess.

Jenny (50:13):
Oh yeah.
No, that's tricky.
That's tricky for sure.
Like, oh, entertain me withyour, how you operate in the
world.
Yeah.

Loran (50:24):
With your ethnic ness, with your queerness, right?
Like that.
I think that that's what he's heading on.
Oh, wait, uh, we shouldn'thave this barrier one.
I think that that's likeimplicit, but that's also very
generous, but there's this?
Um, no, this is mine.

(50:45):
Mm,

Jenny (50:46):
and this is mine and this is mine.
Look at this place.
I was thinking of Steve Martin and in the jerk taking this.
And also then this chair also, that's it.
I don't need anything else.

(51:12):
Okay.

T. (51:13):
Kind of makes me think about like, uh, a common thing.
Something that I fell intooverseas, again, was this sort
of, because one gets treated assort of the pinnacle of privilege.
It's easy to slip into that.
And I would see a lot of ex-pats overseaswho sort of lived and acted in a way

(51:34):
that they deserve to be treated likeKings and sort of taken care of because
it was responded to, it was reinforced.
So there's sort of privilege.
And there were others who recognizevery quickly why, where there was a
boundary and where there was nice kindbehavior and where it was too much
and made efforts to sort of limit it.
Um, yeah, so I absolutely lost my train

(51:57):
of

Loran (51:57):
thought
now.

J. (51:58):
Well, real quick, I think this actually relates to a text message.
I received two days ago.
I have a good friend.
Who's a White female.
Um, who's currently overseas andshe texted me and said, the people
here have told me I'm one of thenicest White people they've ever met.
And this is someone who does a significantamount of anti-racist training.

(52:19):
Who's a queer identified professionalwho does, does this for a living.
And I said, yeah, you probablyare one of the only White people.
That's treated them with respect andhumility, which was back to your point
about being an ex-pat and expectingpeople to treat you a particular way.
And she's not doing that because sherecognizes how White supremacy that is.

Tej (52:39):
I had a thought too.
Um, I'm not quite sure how this relates,but when I was in my early twenties, like
I was a little fucker, like I used toget in trouble with the cops a lot, and
I didn't like the cops and I would alwaysgive the cop shit and I would just kind of
push it, just to see how far I could pushit past the trouble for something minor.

(52:59):
And

Sam (53:00):
I know that

Tej (53:02):
the reason I got away with it to an extent is because
I'm White and I don't know.
Another reason I got away with itto an extent is because of a man
or a male at the time, whatever.
I feel like there was, there was lessof a chance of being either violated
or hurt or something to that effect.

Loran (53:22):
And I,

Tej (53:24):
I don't know how that relates to other than they feel like the same thing,
like the Whiteness and the malenessare two things that are going to save
me in this scenario, even though I'm

Sam (53:32):
creating it myself.

J. (53:33):
When I was in college, I was 19 years old and there was a stoplight
stop sign, right by my dorm room.
In one month, I rolledthrough that stop sign.
Three times got pulled over by the sametop three times, never got a ticket.

(53:54):
On the third time I stopped at night,midnight stepped out of my car and
started to walk towards the cop carbecause that's how dumb and naive I was.
And he started screaming.
Stop, stop, stop.
Of course I stopped cause I was scared andI turned around and I got back in my car.
Had I been a Black male?
I don't know that I'd be alive right now.

T. (54:17):
Yeah.
I mean, I've got a similar story.
I mean, in terms of race and privilegein those terms, I was, uh, arrested.
And, um, what was this?

Loran (54:28):
This would have been when I first,
uh,

T. (54:33):
when I suppose the initial calls at any rate, I was arrested for using
a Metro card, my grandmother's Metrocard, um, a figure, um, this was,
uh, and I got locked up and I spenta night in prison, down in the tombs.
And, uh, and, uh, I guy at one pointsaid to me, how are you doing number 73?

(54:56):
And I was like, what do you mean 73?
And he quoted the statistics andI'm misremembering the number
probably, but that one in, um, 12Black guys goes to prison wanting 17
Latino, or, uh, people go to prison.
And then one in 73 White guysgoes to prison at anyway.
It was interesting that he quoted thatas we were like in our little chain

(55:17):
gangs that have chained together.
Um, because of the entire time Iwent through that full process, I
was the only White guy in, you know,sometimes in a cell with, you know, a
hundred other guys or something like.
I was the only White person there.
And then when it came time, we were inthis little cell behind the courtroom.
Um, and the first person they calledwas me and everyone was like, ah, yeah.

(55:42):
You know, like giving me a lot of shit.
And I like felt completely sheepish.
And like, I was happy to bethe first in front of the
judge and subsequently be free.
But, um, it was very, it was justso blatantly clear that I was
getting preferential treatment.
Um, and I stuck out with like a

Loran (56:00):
sore thumb.
Yeah.
And I just looked up at those statistics.
Um,
oh wait, my search terms were one in 73 White men
go to jail.
There are a few government run

(56:20):
organizations.
Uh, there's one called prevalence inthe imprisonment of U S population,
imprisonment of U S population.
This is just like sitting so weird.
So TSA one in 73, and it's likeprobably misremembering it from
1974 to 2001, it was one in 17

(56:41):
White
men, one
in three Black males,
one in six Hispanic males and one in 17 White
males.
That's what this paper says.
And this paper was published.
In 2003,
which I feel like places this around, like when this happened.
Yeah.
When did they say it was

(57:02):
like, just thinking about, um, like why he was ticketed.
It was because he hadhis grandmother's Metro
card
and so it has to be before.
And so that would fall.
This would fall within that 1974 to 2001.
So that's the, like the one piece thatI feel like is really interesting,

(57:23):
but the second is the most recent.
And I said this in the first partof the episode, White men make up
30% of the us population and make up61.8% of the us prison population.
That's,

(57:44):
that's huge.
That's a huge discrepancy.
And for I, and they believelike, here we go, it's from
the federal bureau of prisons.
1.5% of inmates that are currentlyincarcerated are Asian 38.3% are Black.
2.5% are native Americanand 57.7 are White percent.

(58:06):
So Hispanics not included, which is
important
because, oh, interesting.
So in looking at ethnicity, A majorityof people who are incarcerated
are non-Hispanic it's 69.5%.
So I think there is overlap there.
And so something shiftedsomething's changed or, yeah,

(58:27):
I'm just like, kind of wonderingwhere tea was coming from with 73.
I wonder if

Jenny (58:33):
that's just what the person told him.
Like maybe he didn't look it up.

Loran (58:39):
Right.
Well, and he had also said a coupleof times, maybe I'm misremembering
it, but that's like a fast mess
remembrance.
Yeah.

Jenny (58:46):
Well, and also he was in a space where he was the only White person.
Right.
So maybe he just picked avery high number in his brain.
Like his brain picked a very high number.
Right,

Loran (58:58):
right.
Also 7, 18 73, like the seventh are
strong 7 77 seconds are strong.
They're strong.

Jenny (59:09):
So can I say that teach comes in to the conversation with like, you
don't hear from him a ton, but whenyou do he's, he's got a humility that
maybe the others don't necessarily have.

(59:29):
Yeah, but he's like, oh, well,can I say something, you know?
Right.
The other thing he said, and thisisn't a quote, cause I couldn't write
festival, but about his White malenesswill save me, even though I am creating
it myself or something along thoselines, which I thought was interesting.

(59:50):
Also three White men interactions withcops, which could have been violent,
but weren't so that's interesting too.
And also

Loran (01:00:00):
demographically, they are the three
that were non Trump people.
Like we haven't heard from Sam,not yet about the ways that he
would benefit from his being White.
Yeah, he

Jenny (01:00:15):
has.
He's been uncharacteristically quiet in
the phone.
I think too.
I'm just going to say this now.
So I don't forget.
We need to put like one of us sayingand disclaimer about his story of, um,
potential violent violence is a trigger
for folks later.

(01:00:37):
Yeah.

Loran (01:00:37):
Maybe we should talk about that.
Cause I don't, there's somany different triggers
in this.
Yeah.
So many triggers, but that one

Jenny (01:00:44):
is particularly hard because it has sex in it.
And he says that he wouldhave killed that person.
I remember those words.
Right?
So that's something.
Given what we've experienced recently,we'd need to just, I think, just touch
that and you could, we could, oh,

(01:01:06):
sorry.
Love.
Go ahead.
And I was just thinking weneed to put like a trigger at
the top of the entire thing.
It comes

Loran (01:01:12):
out, which, which should have been for part one.
I'm not a big fan of trigger warnings.
Um, and so I think that that's somethingelse that I've got to sit with.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.

Jenny (01:01:22):
Yeah.
That's fair.
Um, only because it does talkabout, uh, White men, White men
considering killing someone.
I think it's important given the recentevents that we, I don't know, I would
want to hear that must be like somethingalong the lines of like, we know this
is sort of a tough conversation ingeneral, but you're about to hear

(01:01:44):
something come up that may, you know,be a trigger for you, especially folks,
you know, who may have experienced likerape or, you know, whatever, but yeah,
you do.

Loran (01:01:58):
Yeah.
I mean, we just, we haven't done anydisclaimers as we're talking about racism
and like the atrocities of racism.
Um, but then to start
at
the atrocities of sexism, um,

Jenny (01:02:12):
but have we actually talked about like physical violence

Loran (01:02:17):
cap ended and the pen piece specifically about like
cutting open a pregnant one.
Oh, yeah.
Oh

Jenny (01:02:25):
yeah.
That's right.
That was really jarring.
Yeah.
That was really jarring.
Okay.
Just a thought.
Yeah.

Loran (01:02:33):
I just saw something about that.
Yeah.
I know.
I appreciate that.
I agree.
Cause I've thought like, yeah,someone's going to want this
chair and
people want that.
Some
people want it.
Yeah.
And

Jenny (01:02:47):
I think it's helpful because I do remember Ben saying that in the, the
panel and I was like, oh, not ready, but
also, yeah, we didn't do onelast episode for suicide suicide.
Um, I

Loran (01:03:04):
do at the very top suicidal ideation and also, yeah, Ben again.
And the episode before that Whitemen have the highest rates of
suicide, I guess

Jenny (01:03:14):
maybe it feels a little different because he's saying it's somebody
admitting to it from themselves ratherthan us talking about it in, you know,
as somebody else's experience, butwhatever you do, you do, you okay.
Should we get back in?
What time
is it?

(01:03:34):
It's 45.

Loran (01:03:36):
Okay.
Uh, so maybe we hold off.
Yeah.
We took a break from this conversationfor a few hours before jumping back in.
I remember eating my sandwich insilence then having to turn on
king of the hill reruns just so Icould try to reset my head space.
I'm saying all of this, now itremind you too, if you want or need

(01:03:57):
to recalibrate when you're ready.
We jumped back yet.
As a reminder, ti was just talkingabout being arrested after using
his grandma's subway affair.

T. (01:04:08):
Yeah, I actually, it propelled me to go on and then do work
educational workshops with adolescents.
And again, when I was there, Ithink I saw maybe two White kids
in the groups I worked with overthe course of an academic year.
And yeah, the racial disparity is massive.
Um, but I guess we all know this, so

Loran (01:04:30):
yeah,

J. (01:04:31):
I wonder.
And I'm totally making this up.
I don't know what kind of statisticswould substantiate this or qualitative
research, but what we're both whatwe're all saying and themes is
that we just got away with stuff.
We just, we just live in a worldwhere we just get away with stuff.
So why couldn't we get awaywith not taking a vaccine and

(01:04:52):
it's the same

Loran (01:04:53):
mentality.

T. (01:04:54):
Yeah.
And it's never, nothinghas been stopped before.
No barriers have been put in place.
So why wouldn't people behave in acertain yeah, but it's so distressing
that like, I'd like to think thateven without barriers, we don't
throw children off of toll buildingsor like, you know what I mean?
Like, um, w we're I'd like tothink we're decent people at heart.

Sam (01:05:16):
Isn't that also like a figment of the times,
right?
Like.

Jenny (01:05:25):
Also it's weird because the, the statistics that you're quoting
are saying that more White menare incarcerated and everybody's
like, no, definitely more folks
of Color, specifically,

Loran (01:05:41):
Black people.
You know, the thing is, is thatit is disproportionately Black
men who are incarcerated whenyou look by population figures.
So like, it makes more sense.
There's more White men in theus than there are Black men.
And so they should make uptheir own sizable share.

(01:06:03):
Like if it was like all proportional,like if there's 30% of White men
in the U S there should be 30%of the prison population, that's
White men, but that's not the case.
It's like 60 whatever percent.
And the same should be true for Black men.
Like if Black men, where is it?
12.4% of all people living in theU S are Black or African-American

(01:06:25):
ethnicity from cintas.gov.
And so if we take that roughly 50 ishpercent of the population is going to be,
uh, assigned male at birth
or assigned female at birth, we'll say approximately 50.
That means that 6.2% of the us populationare Black mountain, but they make up.

(01:06:48):
30% of the prison population, 33%.
And so that's 6, 12, 18, 24, 30you're five times more likely to
be incarcerated, uh, as a Blackman by that number, then you are
two times as likely as a White man.

(01:07:08):
And so yeah, it is it's disproportional.
Um, and
because of there are just numerically, not percentage wise, but
numerically where White people, you'regoing to see more White people, but it's
also, yeah, like he's talking about, um,I don't think we're going to actually
be able to say that person's name.
We can't say any names actually.

(01:07:29):
So wherever he was, wherever incarceratedwas like specific to a population
center that is highly diversifiedin terms of the racial category.
Um, but I think that they're alsotouching on that other thing that, um,
I think a lot about when we talk aboutdisproportionate rates, that doesn't mean

(01:07:50):
that White
people don't experience that thing
either.
Right?
Like I think a lot about,
um, like Black lives matter, spoke at length about, uh, police
brutality and police killingof unarmed, uh, American folks.
Um, and they were very clear thatlike, we're talking about everybody.

(01:08:13):
Right.
And it's disproportionately impactingBlack people, but they were like, whoa,
this is also happening to White people.
So you should probably bepaying attention to this.
Oh, you to jump back in

Sam (01:08:30):
and go back to the Holocaust babies with thrown up in the air
to San lieutenants who could shootthem for the depth of the ground.
Like, I dunno.
I mean, it's extreme example.
Um, but, but it's, it's tunnellike the same thing and it's
just not as extreme now.
It's like, what can I, what can I right.
Like exactly what we're saying.
Will I get away with,

J. (01:08:51):
I almost, I hear what you're saying and I don't want to that you
just said, cause that's horrific.
But if you look at massshootings, it's all White men.
They still think that there's a spaceto do that, to just go into a place and
start shooting and just see what happens.

(01:09:12):
I mean,

Loran (01:09:17):
again, the data point is pointing that it's not
I'll wait, man.
Right?

Jenny (01:09:22):
Um, this most recent one was in a White man.
Yeah.
I also

Loran (01:09:26):
talked about this and the first part of the
thing,
51.7% of all mass
shootings are White men.
95% of them are met.
There's only, there's onlybeen four mass shootings.
Since 1966 that have been performed by
a non man

(01:09:47):
woman.
Yeah.
Only four.
And so we sometimes get stuck in thatpotentially, you know, w how, how do we
get to that place where we confuse allmen with, and then this is just making
weight people that default that's like,

Jenny (01:10:05):
That's just J the teacher.
But, um, I think a lot of it has to dotoo with like, this sounds awful, but
like Netflix and the true crime genre,like it, a lot of those stories are White

(01:10:27):
about White dudes doing, doing shit.
Right.
A lot of the serial killers that likeare famous within the true crimes genre.
I think most of them are White.
So White guys in a way.
So I wonder if it comes fromthere, like not there specifically,

(01:10:50):
but like a media entertainment
thing.

J. (01:10:57):
I don't know what their motivations are.
I'm sure.
It's way beyond the psychology of goingon is much bigger than let's just see what
happens, but there's gotta be somethingbaked in to White masculine culture.
Creating this notion that thatmass shootings and gun violence
is somehow a right or a privilege

Sam (01:11:14):
in some way when I was younger.
And I think I still believe it now.
Um, I started on thinking about whythese shootings would happen and I get
the feeling that they happen becausethere's no, there's no space for people
to express how they really feel inside.

(01:11:34):
Right?
Like if you do listen to what theaverage person says, or even just
everybody says, they feel say X inside.
So we tell people that we're wide.
Right.
And then saying, and then telling peoplethat we're, Y reinforces the fact that
like we're uncomfortable with being X.

(01:11:55):
And we feel judged all the time.
And I remember nightly thinking,like I was into kink like years ago.
Um, and now I'm just way toolazy for, um, but I was into it.
And I remember thinking, ah, seeif, if you know these violent young
men or violent men in general, orthat people could go into a space

(01:12:17):
express their violence and someone'slike, you know, cool with it.
Maybe even make a scenario where it'scon non-con or something like that.
You'd get that impulse out.
And then why would you want tobe aggressive towards anyone
you've already expressed it?
That was a really.
That's not necessarily the answer,because it's so much more than
just an aggression that you feel.

(01:12:39):
What do you like, what doyou feel aggressive about?

J. (01:12:43):
You just said it.
I think, which is part of, and this reallyhas to do with maleness and masculinity
is that we're not raised or socializedin any kind of emotional sense, right?
We're, we're taught to cutoff from our own emotions.
So when we feel X, whatwe do is we say we're up.
And then that emotion goes somewhere,that emotion, that pain, that hurt, it

(01:13:07):
goes inside of that heaps up, it comesout as aggression towards self or others.
Some people, it comes out asaggression in substance abuse and
that's like aggression towards self.
But in those rare cases that comes out

Sam (01:13:19):
as mass shootings.
Um, let me, let me take that step further,which is, so the person that I'm dating

Loran (01:13:30):
there is I think a lot of talk in this focus group in general, about
a lot of violence that happens, uh,emotional, mental, physical, and Sam is
about to share an instance of physicalviolence that comes up, uh, that has to
do with impacting someone that he knows.

(01:13:52):
Well,

Jenny (01:13:53):
also, it's interesting how violence is tied to sex for him.
And the release of violence is throughsex for him, which is terrifying,
terrifying.

Loran (01:14:12):
And then we'll
pick up there that we're no, that's fine.

Jenny (01:14:15):
I just couldn't even realize.
I was like, oh, that's a through line.
Sorry.
Okay.

Sam (01:14:24):
So the person that I'm dating, I was talking to her about how, like
know the other night I was just like,I was like in, in like a fit of rage
and I just couldn't get out of it.
And like, she's not here.
Right.
Not even close.
Um, and I was in this rage andI just couldn't get out of it
no matter how hard I tried.
And, and it took every bit of motivationor strength or whatever, just like

(01:14:49):
call her and be like, all right,I need to talk to you about this.
Like I wanted to sit and wallow in itand I said, wanted to sit in the one to
hate the world, but I wanted to do allof these things or do the one thing that
I knew that I knew would make it better.
Right.
And the second that we started talking,it was suddenly instantly, instantly.

(01:15:12):
And when we kept talking, I realized thatthe reason why I was in a state of rage
and like I tell you, I hated everyone.
What was not a person in my lifethat I was like, oh, they're,
they're, they're a nice person.
I was like, I hate you.
And I hate you when I hit you.
And we talked about it and it really was.
I don't tell people the smallest thing.

(01:15:34):
If someone bothers me, somethingbothers me, or I feel disrespected.
I say, Hey, you know what?
It's not a big deal.
Right.
It's just, it's just like one small thing.
Right.
I guess I should just like,you know, be a man about it.
Be an adult about it.
Be whatever about it.
Cause it doesn't matter.
And I filed that away.
So now I have a whole lot ofindividual anger episodes and

(01:15:59):
the reason behind the anger.
Right.
That I don't remember what thereason was, so I can't address it.
And then the, um, the angeritself that lingers, right.
That's stored up somewhere.
So then I go through like a fit of rage.
Right.
It's not as bad as years ago, but Iremember, I remember years ago I was

(01:16:20):
dating someone and I had a horrible dayand she goes and says, Hey, um, we had, we
had that stereotypical relationship wherelike, I want sex more than she wanted sex.
And I come home from work and I've beenat work with 72 hours and I'm just done.
And she's like, let's go,let's let's, let's go do this.
I'm interested.
Uh, we're waiting foryou for all this time.

(01:16:41):
And she's seeing all these lovelythings, but I'm in a bad mood.
And so she convinces me,oh, this is so much better.
Right.
So I say yes.
And then we're together.
And I was, I almost murdered this person.
And then.
I lost it.
And I called up my teacher.
I was like, I need help.

(01:17:02):
Like I really need help, but it wasn'tuntil something horrible happened.

Loran (01:17:07):
Can we just, I'm sorry.
Can we just
silence all of our electronicstuff and figure out, do you know

Sam (01:17:11):
how on that to make it stop doing

J. (01:17:13):
this to yourself when you're not talking?
At least

T. (01:17:19):
there is something in the notifications.
I think that one can adjust that I had to

Sam (01:17:23):
do it once.
I think

Jenny (01:17:28):
technical debt,
we were

Loran (01:17:31):
in some ways saved by the bell.
Um, but we got distracted by the bell.
Um,
it's to me, it's so interesting that now he knows that he needs to
talk about, and it needs to, uh, buildbetter relationships with people.
But before it was, I don'teven know how to talk.

(01:17:53):
I actually, I can't actuallyarticulate what's happening for
me until it we're so far past.
And

Jenny (01:18:00):
yeah, it's just, I still am like, whoa, there's like this through
line of like anger and sex, you know,even when he's able to talk about it
with somebody it's with the person thathe's sleeping with, you know, it's.
Like, why does she need to be theperson to hold your anger for you?

(01:18:24):
I don't know.
I just, I mean, that's fine.
Like it's his relationship.
I'm not, you know, but alsothen he's like, and honestly he
said before, get your anger out.
Like, you know, through sex,like do these, these things,
he quoted some, some stuff.

(01:18:45):
And then now he's telling a storyabout when he was releasing his anger
through sex and it didn't go well.
So I don't know.
I mean, people can contradict themselves.
I just, I think I'm also having a visceralresponse to it and I'm just like, Ooh.

Loran (01:19:06):
Yeah.
That to me is, I think one of thelarger themes, like violence, yes.
Sex.
Yes.
Um, but contradictions, I mean, everysingle person has contradicted themselves
and we contradict ourselves all the time.
Um, but we don't, we don't holdtheir belief that we do that.

(01:19:26):
We are just these consistent beings.
Right.
Yeah.
And I think I'm still really stuck at me.
He knows what the answer is.
Um, but sometimes isn't always able totap into that, even though he knows that
that's the thing that's going to help up.
And I think about how we do that.
So often to ourselves, just as peopleI know, I know the right thing to do.

(01:19:50):
I know what I should be doing.
Am I going to do it?
No, not at all.
Because my conditioning has told me thatthis is, what's kind of be my thing.
I'm going to like wearthis as an identity.
Yeah.
Um, let's go back in.
Okay.

T. (01:20:09):
If you go to system preferences or type in the thingy go to sleep or
that thing that puts on your sleep,because then it would silence things.
Um, just to sort of speak towhat you were talking about.
Actually, the, for me, the, a largepart, like when we're talking about well
aggression, and when we're talking aboutsort of, uh, race and gender, even lack

(01:20:31):
of knowledge for me, what was incrediblymeaningful so far in my education in this
past year was, um, having my mind openedor being exposed to thoughts and ideas
that made me much more compassionate,basically exposing blind spots.
I didn't even know I had or thingsI did that I wasn't aware of.

(01:20:54):
Um, in terms of race, um, I dunno.
I think, I think at the heart of this,when we talk about the selfishness, that
our, what I talked about, the selfishnesshere, um, what I think can be learned
from collectivist cultures is this ideathat like, if you're constantly around
people, if you're not isolated, if you'reconstantly talking to those with whom you

(01:21:15):
live and interact, if you're closer tothe things that you, that means something.
Um, if you start to slip, if you start tohave different thoughts, ideas, feelings,
or if your feelings and thoughts aredecidedly aggressive or mean, someone
will say something you'll know it like thebrew real benefit of communities is not

(01:21:37):
allowing us to go off on our own sort of,

Loran (01:21:42):
I dunno,

T. (01:21:43):
around emotional intellectual tangential BS, uh,
communities keep us in check.
I, I feel like the disconnect, a bigdisconnect with COVID and also just in
the states in general, is this trendtowards being isolated individual.
And that right there has somany massive repercussions.

(01:22:05):
May I

J. (01:22:05):
respond to that?
Would that be okay.
So I love what you said and justbecause I happen to know a little
bit of your life and history, I thinkit sounds like there was a, there
was a time this past year that youreally opened up that you blossomed
and started to understand a lot more.
Is that correct?

T. (01:22:24):
And

J. (01:22:24):
we, especially when it comes to issues like race and systemic problems, right?
Yes.
And what I would, whatI would hope and pray.
I know, just because of your history,that, that came from a master's
degree that came from coursestaken in a master's program and
courses taught by a Black female.
And that's huge, but not a lot ofpeople have access to master's degree.

(01:22:48):
Educations taught by women of Colorwho have been trained in this for years
and who are willing to do the work.
What I would love is to go back to whatyou said about community and have our
community do that for us so that we don'thave to lean on people of Color or have to
get master's degrees to figure this out.
But that White men, like youand me can do it together.
So we don't put the burden of thelabor on people of Color a hundred

T. (01:23:11):
percent.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's hugely important.
And I agree

J. (01:23:15):
with you 'cause I just want like John down the street, who is a construction
worker that works with Sam to be ableto feel that, to have what you had
this year and the only way that Johndown the street is going to get that
is if guys like me who live next to himare willing to have that conversation

T. (01:23:33):
so difficult, but it's, I mean, I think it's a.

Loran (01:23:41):
It's the amount of helping men helping me.
Uh, and I, again really liked how tiwas using community as this antidote
to Sam's individualized problems.
And it made me think a lot about what Samwas saying earlier in his introduction
of, I want to do what I want to do and,and you would do what you want to do.

(01:24:04):
Uh, and we'll all be happy.
Uh, and I think the response that Ithink Tia has going for is we need
to do what we need to do, uh, ratherthan I need to do what I need to do
anything that that's a really important,uh, distinguishing kind of like
crime, that's it, that's all I had.

(01:24:28):
There's

T. (01:24:29):
a, it's difficult.
I've tried to sort of, since thatcourse, I've tried to have those
conversations and in some cases it'sbeen meaningful and sort of yeah.
A positive, constructive thing, butI've found it oftentimes sort of
quickly pushed aside or like shut down.

(01:24:50):
Um, I guess what I'm saying is,yeah, I agree easier said than done.
Yeah.

Loran (01:24:58):
What do, uh, what do White men need in this moment?
I'm starting to hear some ideas about whatthat could be, but I'm curious if there's
something specific that you're thinkingWhite men need that if we had the.
Everything would be fine

Jenny (01:25:19):
when T was like, I'm really comfortable with
having those conversations.
And then these, like, they're really hard.
And I don't know, because I thinkin theory, when you're just asking

(01:25:39):
someone, are you comfortabletalking about race and racism?
They're like, yeah.
Cause I think that like,that's the right answer.
But then when you start to get vulnerable,which is probably at this point where
they are now, they're like, oh no, wait
not that's it

Loran (01:26:02):
let's go back.

Sam (01:26:05):
Can I share something?
Um, so I have, and thisis not my own thought.
Um, someone else's, Ican't remember who it is.
Um, but I listened to a lecture andthey said that men and women are talking
specifically that side of it, men.
Are both at war with one another, becausethey're both oppressing one another right.

(01:26:26):
Men are doing and telling womenthat like of many things, but
this is like a main thing.
Men are going and telling women,we need you to carry the emotional,
you know, torch and, and burden.
And we need you to bring spirituality.
And then women are telling men,we need you to be utility, right?
We need you to succeedand do these things.

(01:26:49):
And even, even if these roles arechanging now, it doesn't mean that for
a hundreds and hundreds of years, thatthe, the congealed energy and the, the
ingrained generational feeling of, uh,men are utility, women are nurturing

(01:27:09):
or whatever stereotypes that we have.
Um, isn't still there.
Like even if every woman was aCEO of a company and every man
was a stay-at-home father, I don'tthink that it would be fixed.
And so men and women need to givethe medicine, which is the thing
that they hold like men, don't awomen's and like, I'm sorry, women

(01:27:31):
going to men saying, I'm sorry.
And the same thing also comeswith the race issues, right?
Like, like racism, not onlyis it, is that, that violent
aggression, but it's also lookingat someone as if they're inferior.
And I think that it also is a poison.
To think of yourself as superior, right?

(01:27:54):
Like forgive yourself and say like, I'm sosorry for thinking that I was greater than
I was because someone did that example.
But my brother was telling me aboutlike, like a story about Kanye west.
And it was like, yeah, like peopleget upset with Kanye because Kanye
walks around, like, he's a God.

(01:28:15):
And if you really pull the curtain backfrom it, you look at it and you realize
that what Connie is actually sayingis that you're only upset with me or
offended by me because you can't acceptthat I'm not actually putting you down.
Right.
I just think that I'm great.

(01:28:35):
And if you thought that you werejust as great as me, we could get on.
Right.
So, so superiority is somethinglike you have every right to it
so long as you don't put otherpeople down by being that right.
So long as you think that you're a great,you don't have to put anybody else down.

Loran (01:29:00):
Remember when Kanye west got up at the VMAX and was like, Beyonce,
I mean, it's a really importantjust like exception to the rule.
I'm sure.
And I don't know Kanye west thatwell, but that was really just
sticking out to me right now.

Jenny (01:29:19):
Well, and then Beyonce got up and was like, actually I remember
when I, when my VMA and it was thebest thing that ever happened to me.
So Taylor, please.
Cause she's a class act that lady,

Loran (01:29:33):
um, the antidote is I'm sorry.
I really love that.
That if we could meetconflict with humility.
Oh, that would be so lovely.

Jenny (01:29:50):
but, but, uh, I mean, and I feel like people of Color don't need
to be apologizing to White people

Loran (01:29:58):
100%,

Jenny (01:30:01):
but I believe what you're saying is, uh, you know, going
into situations with humility is

Loran (01:30:09):
huge.
I was thinking more about like Whitepeople talking with other White

Jenny (01:30:13):
people.
Oh yeah, of course.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like in the county council culturesituation, like instead of somebody
being like, you're awful goodbye withyour life, having somebody be like, Hey

Loran (01:30:25):
yeah, once we're getting into a cross-cultural space, well,
that's a completely different story.
We have the smell.
We are not here to tellfolks of Color, how to talk.
Think behave, do stand in ourlane, staying in our lane.
Um, but White people, we can'teven come to a cross-cultural
conversation and apologize.

(01:30:46):
Not all, all of us can.
And some of us think that it's actuallyridiculous to, um, one of the things I
actually wanted to like pull back fromthe thing with Jay, um, when Jay was
talking a lot about how like, uh, Whitemanner, um, you know, predominantly

(01:31:07):
mass shooters and we're getting awaywith us because we're waiting on, um,
to me, I was thinking like, this is areally good example of the shame culture,
narrative, um, of taking a few instancesand then, um, universalizing them.

(01:31:28):
And so it does, to me, I thinksome of, not all of what JS said, I
think stems from that shame culture.
And I think it's interesting to have.
I am on one side andSam on the other side.
Yeah.
That's like a really weird spectrumfor, I think a lot of them, I think

(01:31:50):
there is a lot of ebb and flow.
Um, but it is interesting to hear the,the talking points from the left and
right show up and in nuanced ways withinboth of their bodies, it's all I got.

T. (01:32:02):
I would tend to disagree a little in that superiority.
I think that conceptis, is somewhat flawed.
I just did through all of what you'vebeen saying, like for me, the, the,
the primary thing is awareness.
It's, it's sort of, I don't know.
I think superiority in and ofitself requires someone to be less

(01:32:24):
than, um, uh, I think, and, andall of this stuff we're discussing.
Like, I dunno, I think everyone needs morelessons in mindful behavior because if
each aid you took each individual personin this country and were able to actually
give them the patients the time and theresources to sort of understand their own

(01:32:47):
actions and the impact on other people.
I don't think we have alot of the issues we have.

Loran (01:32:52):
I think people are far

T. (01:32:55):
too caught up in too many things to be able to examine their own
behavior and actually logicallysee the through line from their
behavior to how it impacts others.
And if the actually saw thatand actually understood it.
So many of the sort of, I don't know,aggressive or violent or angry or
hurtful behaviors that people involvethemselves in wouldn't actually come.

(01:33:20):
If that

J. (01:33:20):
makes sense.
I, I have, I have a thought youmind, so yeah, I'm I'm with you.
And I, I'm starting to think about myself.
Like, I don't know that I can answerLoran's question about what we need right
now, without reflecting on what I neededto get where I am and what I continue

(01:33:43):
to need to get to where I want to be.
And what I needed to get, where Iam was I needed both men and women.
I needed women to hold me accountable formy massage, Annie and I needed White folks
to hold me accountable for my racist,subconscious ways of being and acting.

(01:34:04):
But I needed that accountability to beheld in the same exact moment with love.
I needed to know that as I wasbeing held accountable, the
person holding accountable,cared about me at a deep level.
And they cared about where I was going asa person and what I was going to become.
And that accountability with love togetheris what has shaped where I am today.

(01:34:28):
And it's going to be the same thingthat I need as I keep moving through.

Loran (01:34:37):
Like if I could make, um, a soundbite for The
Spillways mission statement.
It's that, it's that exact thinglove me through my mistakes.
Hold me in my mistakes.
That's uh, I just wanted to pause itfor that, that it's just so it's so
fucking profound, profound for me.
I love that.

Jenny (01:34:57):
I, I don't know why, and I didn't feel like this when we listened to it
the first few times, but for whateverreason, I was sitting here and he
was like, what I needed was women tohold me accountable for my misogyny.
And I was like, excuse me, like, why didyou need women to hold you accountable?

(01:35:22):
And then I was like, oh, this islike, I'm not saying that it's the
same exact thing, but it's similar towanting people of Color to hold you
accountable for your racism, right.
Or no, it's a

Loran (01:35:41):
different, I think now I think it's, I think there,
they can be very similar.
I think, I mean

Jenny (01:35:46):
different experiences, right?
I'm not trying to say like,

Loran (01:35:50):
I think because, because these are social identities,
there really is something that'sspecial about it being in relation.
Um, rather than it beinganti relational, Yeah.
I think that this is where it getstricky because this is where we start
getting into, like, cross-culturaltalk, um, because you're right.

(01:36:15):
We don't want to put more emotional laborat the foot, the doorstep of folks, of
Color, of women, of trans folks, folkswho are disabled, like none of that.
And we learned through lived experience.
Like I don't, I don't know thatyou're hurting until you say owl.

(01:36:39):
Um, and I don't know.
You're happy until I see you smile.
And so there has, there has to be likesome kind of cue, it comes back for
me to know what to do or not to do.
Got

Jenny (01:36:49):
you.
I guess it, maybe it wasthe way he phrased it.
Like, it was very much like I need this.
And I think he was just being passionateabout what he was saying, but I think
what it triggered in me was why dowe all have to be your eye-opener?

(01:37:11):
You know, like, I guess I thinkmaybe I'm feeling a little,
like, I don't know the way.
I think I'm just feeling a littletender because of the way that women
have been talked about in this.
Focus group.
So I think I'm just being, I'mtaking it personally and I shouldn't,

Loran (01:37:33):
um, my, why shouldn't you as a woman take what?

Jenny (01:37:38):
Oh, no, just cause we're, we're just trying to, um, you know,
listen and comment, but I'm, I'mlike getting upset and I didn't
realize that I was getting upset.

Loran (01:37:52):
Yeah, no, it's important.
And thank you for naming that andbringing that into this conversation.
What else would you like tobring into the conversation?
Okay.
Um,

Jenny (01:38:02):
no, that's it.
Sorry.
I was just thinking, yeah, I didn'trealize that that was coming up for me,
but I understand what Jay's pointwas he wasn't, you know, and now that
you've explained it, I like that, butI don't know, you know, that you're

(01:38:24):
happy and you smile and all that.
That makes

Loran (01:38:27):
yeah.
And a lot of it is just from like a, asociological and psychology, psychological
place, outgroup differences, or just.
Like you don't know what anothergroup of folks are doing or
thinking or saying or doing untilyou start to talk to each other.
And so that requiressome oops and some ouch.

(01:38:50):
Um, but then it's, oh, wait, I knowthat that's a Knudsen and ouch, let me
make sure that I don't do it again andthat I help spread the word that that's
probably not the best thing to do.
Um, and yeah, that's justlike part of the work.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
But not everyone should have tohurt every single person on earth to
know like, what is right or wrong.

(01:39:11):
Like that's why education is so important.
That's why relationshipsare so important, right?
Yeah.

J. (01:39:17):
So I'm curious from you all, not what the White men need, but what
do you need to be a better man andto be, to be a better White person.
And I still got a long way to go.

Sam (01:39:28):
I have a

Tej (01:39:28):
question for you, Jay, can you expand a little bit on what you're talking
about with regard to I'm paraphrasing?
So some ideas that you had about, youknow, it's not the responsibility of
minorities to teach White people how to beand what not, but I'm just curious, like
how much responsibility we really do haveand how much is it a collective thing?

(01:39:54):
Um, can we police ourselves in this right.
In this case kind of

J. (01:39:58):
thing?
No, that's a good point.
I don't know that I couldput a percentage on it.
I think what I know is.
It's been easier for me to receiveaccountability from White people.
And it's been easier for meto receive accountability from
men because of my identity.
And I think if I'm held accountable bylike a person of Color, especially a
Black woman, I feel a lot more shameand it's a lot harder for me to work

(01:40:23):
through whatever it is I'm dealing with.

Loran (01:40:25):
So you need the ease in.

J. (01:40:28):
Yeah.
It's like, it's like, I need, it's almostlike I need the White identity of the
other person to kind of like, let me knowthat I'm seen and heard and not just, I'm
not just like, feel like I'm the problem.
And then I also need like men to bethere and be like, yeah, you've got
some stuff to work through, but I'ma guy and I've been there too, but I
also still need to hear from peopleof Color and women, women of Color.

(01:40:50):
Like I still need to hear thosenarratives and know, but I think that
like that person who sits me down onthe couch at nine 30 at night and is
like either on a zoom call or on a phonecall or in-person, I need that person
to be like, to really love me throughthe shit that I'm struggling with.
And I don't, I don't expect thatto be a person of Color or to be

(01:41:11):
a woman of Color specifically.
That would be a lot ofemotional labor for, for her.
But
I'm convinced

Loran (01:41:25):
saying,

Jenny (01:41:27):
okay, so it's not just me as like, wait, did I hear him wrong?
Is he just saying what.
Oh, so in terms of misogynyand patriarchy, he wants a
woman to hold him accountable.
He didn't say this, but I'm goingto assume he means a White woman

(01:41:52):
is that, you know what I mean?
And then, but in terms of racism, itneeds to be White dudes and so confused.

Loran (01:42:07):
Yeah.
That's for him.
And how he receives herhere is accountability.
That's the way that itwas going to be the best.
And I think it is because when,when I hear him talk, I think I'm
hearing that like, there's so muchembarrassment and shame around fucking
up in front of a woman of Color, butit's so hard to like, trust to know.

(01:42:36):
Uh, but like he still has value because,you know, he just does not want to
fuck up in front of Black women.
Gotcha.
Um, I think it goes back to the Clementine quote of like, oh, the root
of all conflict is not feeling loved orneeded, not feeling like you have value.

(01:42:57):
And so I feel like forfolks like Jay, a lot of.
His value system is constructedaround his worth being conditional,
um, Black women's acceptance of him.
Uh oh, okay.

(01:43:17):
Yeah.

Jenny (01:43:19):
Yeah.
And I mean, I wouldn't, I don'twant to fuck up in front of
women of Color either, so I get
that.
Yeah.
Okay.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Thanks for opening up that for me.
Cause I was like, excuse
me.

J. (01:43:38):
I would be willing to put that emotional labor on other White men because
that's stuff we got to do together.
I don't, I hope that made sense.
I know that when I used to say and domisogynist shit, I had a woman in my
life who would sit me down on the couchand we would scream it out while I told

(01:44:01):
her that I wasn't him Sergeant, then shewould tell me, okay, maybe you're not, but
here's where, here's where the problem is.
And it took years of that reinforcementfor me to be like, oh yeah, I guess I
was probably pretty shitty of me to do.
I guess I was leaning on my malepower there and it took that kind
of like holding me accountable.
But I also love you for me to see through,see, be seen through to the other.

Tej (01:44:27):
That was something that's easy and maybe I'm just self reflecting here.
I think it's easy for, it's probablyeasy for me to think that I'm doing
something right when like the Whitepeople around me are holding me up
in, for instance, on the, on theinternet, you can post a fucking
hashtag Black lives matter or something.
And like, you know, your White friendswill say you're doing something where
you really like helping the commute.

(01:44:49):
Like, are you really makinga change in our culture?
And you know, thecollective human experience.
I don't know if that really does anything,but you might get like a lot of props
from your White friends or something,or, you know, cleaning or what have you.

T. (01:45:03):
I, I tend to agree, like, I think that I was going to say, but in response
to the sort of gender thing that you weresaying J but the same sort of concept,
like for me personally, it took justa sudden realization that, um, so much
of the behavior I saw around me and toa certain extent, my own behavior was

(01:45:25):
responsible for people, genuinely feelinglike absolute shit, people suffering, like
women's suffering, like the way that menwent out, sort of dated sort of behaved,
um, the way that sort of, yeah, womenare treated as objects, things like that.
Like that just took a suddenslap in the face of realization.
And for me, there was zero support, quitethe opposite, the environment in which I

(01:45:49):
learned that, or sort of began to realizemy own massage genie was one in which.
Everything's supported misogyny.
So it was kind of like a weird, butjust like a realization for me that
actually I could no longer supportwhat I was seeing around me and I
had to remove myself from, from it.

(01:46:12):
So I've just had differentexperience that I had.
But through that same, or thatsame sort of idea or mechanism
that the idea that like, I think ittakes proper serious in your face.
This is what this is doing.
Um, in terms of like racism, when I saw,you know, the story I told about seeing

(01:46:33):
only like a couple of White kids inthe year, I was doing a work at Rikers.
Like I went on to study a bunch of stuffand I suppose I, it was being reported
then, but somehow it wasn't in theforefront, but like, I think awareness
like really, really, really, I don'tknow how properly getting people to
understand just how drastic the impact is.

(01:46:57):
Like, as we say many times, thisis like life or death in each
moment, this is a conversation.
When we talk about race, it'snot just like, oh, this is an
interesting intellectual conversation.
Tell me how this being Black hasimpacted, you know, this is a life
or death patient that like isn't,he's not just a, an academic one.

(01:47:17):
Um, I feel like I'm digressing now.

Loran (01:47:22):
I really just want to double down on tea's point that we, as way
people need explicit examples of racismin order to see that it's a problem.
Like George Floyd was reallyexplicit for a lot of people.
Uh, but it, to me, it was sofascinating because that moment for

(01:47:44):
me was just a huge, fucking repeatI've shut that's already happened.
But for so many people, it was thefirst time they ever saw it as if they
never saw what happened to Tamir riceor what happened to Trayvon Martin or
what happened to Ayana Stanley Jones.

(01:48:06):
That shit happened to years beforeGeorge Floyd, but something major
and something drastic had to happen.
Yeah.

Jenny (01:48:17):
Also, I, I also believe that because it happened during
the pandemic, everyone was ina heightened state of worry and
vulnerability the whole world together.
And so, and the only way people couldconnect with each other was through media.

(01:48:44):
So for people who had been doingthe social justice work had been.
People of Color had, you know, whoare not, we're like, oh, well it's
a repeat, you know, it was a repeat.
But for folks who have been livingtheir fancy middle-class, as you taught

(01:49:06):
me that word middle-class fancy lives.
This yeah.
It was like in their face all the timeand they couldn't not pay attention.

Loran (01:49:17):
Right.
Cause we forgot about right.
And so if we're forgetting the, likein the nineties, Rodney king and
suddenly George Floyd happened, wethink, oh, well this is maybe like
a once in a generation experience.
And so it's fine.
Cause like we had that moment in 2020White folks organized for a hot second and

(01:49:41):
then a flash in the pan and now people arelike, oh no, no, no, I marched some done.
Right.
All right, let's go back.
Oh no, we're done.
We are done.
Are you picking up on thetheme here from Jenny and me?

(01:50:01):
So don't forget it slow and steady wins.
This.
Can we report again, Jennyand I came back a week later.
And so this is another really goodopportunity to just say, I really, really
hope that you're not trying to toughthis out and finish all of this in one go
or that if you're trying to get throughthis episode alone, you know, you can
listen to this podcast and communitywith your family and friends, right?

(01:50:24):
Like that's how we build a better, morecompassionate patient understanding
and empathetic way culture.
We invite others into the work.
All right.
So remember this timestamp come backwhen you're ready, or maybe you have
your settings set up to pick up where youleft off, but we're going to jump back in

T. (01:50:42):
I'm digressing now.

Loran (01:50:44):
Not at all, not at all.
And actually, uh, I would, if we can,I want to do three more questions.
We've got about 15 minutes left.
So I'm going to try to time theseout to about five minutes each.
These are massive questions I hold, andI know that there are massive questions,
um, and you all are just so insightful.
And I would love to get these threequestions out there into the world.

(01:51:06):
How are you impacted negativelyby masculinity and patriarchy?
If at all, I

J. (01:51:15):
have a litany of responses, so I'll let others go.
I just

Sam (01:51:19):
want to do what I want to do.
I don't want to have to think about it.
Like we, we all know, right.
That knows me that I don't think aboutit as much as maybe other people do.
But, um, I was at a, I was at a thriftstore yesterday and I found assless
chaps, and I'm planning on going toa rave and promotions, wearing them
in a jockstrap and I'm in, right.

(01:51:41):
It, I, I don't feel gay when I wear it.
I don't feel like I identify asanything other than straight, but
everyone else, that means something.
And to me, it's justlike, this is fun, right?
Let me have my fun andI'll let you have your.

T. (01:51:57):
I support you fully in that, cause that does sound like fun
and why not be silly or sort ofdo exactly what feels like fun.
I would have a more, my, my problemwith masculinity and patriarchy
and things are the things that Idon't know about that I don't like.
I can recognize when I'm beingtaking advantage of my maleness
or my sort of privilege and actinglike a shithead or something.

(01:52:21):
And I can see those things, butit's the things that I don't see
that have been sort of pushedinto me from the day I was born.
Like I'm gen only bothered by thesort of expectations that are put on
men or the expectations I perceivedto be put on me as a teenage boy.
Like that sucks, man.
That's not fair like that.

(01:52:42):
We were sort of like forcedto be a certain way or sort of
encouraged to be a certain way.
Um, my teenage yearswere you have a minute.
So if that gives context, but,um, uh, yeah, it's, it's not fair.
It

Sam (01:52:54):
bothers me.
I want to weigh in on what you said,but I know that we're on a time crunch.
Um, the couple of years agoI got sick and it was, it was
really bad, really, really bad.
And my whole life fell apart and my motherwas totally supportive of that, of it.
But because like I expected thatit didn't mean enough to, to do

(01:53:15):
a change, anything, but it wascrying in my father's arms that.
Was the most impactful?
Was it like when I was younger, Ididn't have that emotional relationship
with my father passed a certain age.
And then as an older persongetting that back was very healing.
Um, Loran,

Loran (01:53:34):
can you say the question one more time?
Sure.
How, if at all, does patriarchy,does masculinity, does misogyny
impact you as a White man?
Negatively if at all?
Um,

Tej (01:53:50):
I, I mean, I'll agree with what was said already, just as, as far
as expectations go and masculinity.
Um, I mean, everybody has masculineand feminine energies and there's,
there's definitely no expectations.
Like we're all saying, I feel like I'mpushing 35 years old and it's taken
me this fucking long and I'm not evenhaving figured everything out, but like,

(01:54:12):
I'm trying to figure out what is mymasculine side, what's my feminine side.
What does that look like?
As far as who I am, and I'm justtrying, I'm still trying to put it

Sam (01:54:20):
all together.
And it's a lot

Tej (01:54:22):
of unlearning from social conditioning and you know,
where it's me, where am I?
Who am I, where am I?
I have a lot of

Sam (01:54:29):
discovery.

T. (01:54:32):
Um,

Sam (01:54:33):
so you have to peel a lot of the way.

J. (01:54:36):
Yeah, I think the patriarchy for me, um, or at least the way that
my male socialization has taught meto be in the world, cut me off from
my authenticity, who I really want.
Who I really am.
And it continues to in subtle ways.
And every time I reject masculinenorms and accepted the me, that's

(01:54:57):
right in front of me, I feel free.
I feel liberated.
And every time I feel pushed backinto the man box, I feel trapped.
There's a piece of methat cuts off and dies.
And I think that's the most importantthing is there is just, there is freedom
and being me and being me sometimesmeans I put on eye makeup or do my nails

(01:55:20):
or wear clothing that might be a bitambiguous or act flamboyantly or whatever.
Anything that steps outside ofthese really rigid norms of manhood.
Soon as I, as soon as I stepoutside of those in a way that feels
authentic to me, not in a way thatis a, that is a display to others.
There is just this beautiful freedom there

Loran (01:55:43):
let's take that exact same question.
I don't think Sam likes labels.
I don't think a lot of them likelabels, but it just, to me, the.
The assless chaps story.
Very first thing out of hismouth is I don't feel gay.
Right.

(01:56:04):
And

Jenny (01:56:04):
even if you did, why is that a problem?
Right?
Like, and what does feeling gaming andalso when you're drinking, which I'm
assuming when you go to a rave that youmight be doing some sort of substance,
you, you, if someone catches yourfancy, they catch your fancy, right?

Loran (01:56:20):
Yeah.
The multitudes on thishuman that's massive.
But yeah, I think

Jenny (01:56:25):
he just, I, I think there's a lot there undiscovered.
I mean, and it's easy to like,you know, analyst somebody when
it's not your lived experience.
Right.
But I feel, I think that there's, Sammight be having some, some struggles
sexually because of everyone.
He's the only one that'stalked about sex so far,

(01:56:48):
right

Loran (01:56:48):
outside of the, uh, like the Kinsey conversation.
Um, to me, it connects to this largerkind of like White cultural project to
hate labels now, Labels are supposed to bethese like really awful evil things that

(01:57:09):
actually don't help us in any fashion.
And I think that this is to me, it's thislike extension of Colorblind racism or
it's this like colorblind racism, but it'sturned into like colorblind culturalism
of, I don't want to see your culture.
I don't want to see your identity.
I don't want to see your pronouns.
I just want to see you.

(01:57:29):
And however, I see you, that's how Iwill approach you and deal with you
based on how I want to experience you.
It goes back to what Sam saidat the beginning that I want
to do whatever I want to do.
You should do whatever you want to do.
And like what a perfect world thatwould be for me to not have to be told
what to do and how deeply that ideasconnected to both masculinity and

(01:57:54):
Whiteness, that my needs come, thatmy needs come before the community
respect a woman's right to choose.
No, I don't want to do that.
Respect you in BT people's gender.
No, I don't want to do that.
And I'm not saying that that's whatI'm saying, but that's where people
have taken that same ideology of,I want to do whatever I want to do.

(01:58:14):
And, and even if you have a moral orethical holdup to respecting women's
bodies, respect to respecting transpeople to respecting Black lives matter.
And even if you have moralethic, To these holdups air
quotes, your morals and ethics.
If you're even using this calling from anoutside moral, ethical code should also

(01:58:35):
hopefully point to don't be an asshole.
So if you really believe everyone shouldbe able to do what they want to do,
even without reason to the community.
Why would your ethics pointto don't be compassionate.
Don't be empathetic.
Don't be patient.
Don't be understanding becauseidentification project started in the
15th century as a way to divide andconquer at the birth of capitalist

(01:58:59):
systems like where White straight says,lane holding men refused anyone else
entry into their rulemaking process.
And over the course of 600 years,identification has turned into a
sense of pride for those who havebeen identified as quote other.
And so many groups who havebeen identified as other have
rightfully critiqued, Whitepeople critiqued straight people.

(01:59:21):
Critiqued says people wealthy people forstarting or knowingly continuing these
systems of identification for subjugation.
And I think when I hear White peopleversus people or straight people hate
identification or labels, it's thisagreement that yeah, White, straight CIS
people shouldn't have started this system.

(01:59:43):
It sucks.
I didn't start this.
So let's just move past it.
Let's just stop talkingabout labels altogether.
And after 600 years later, We aredealing with one hour moral injury
to the fact that we can't take prideopenly and any of the labels that others

(02:00:05):
have created for me, for us and thatthis pervading ideology that I don't
want to put in the work to make thisrelationship work, it's just born out of.
I just want to be seen as a goodperson without having to do any of the
work required to be in good glacier.
Uh, and so, yeah, but to me, whenSam was like, oh, I don't feel gay.

(02:00:27):
Um, I don't feel any type of way in this.
It really is just like this largerdistrict notification project.
Um, but then I think all of them aretalking about the expectations that
come along with those labels or thestereotypes that come with them, which I
think is, yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
Anything jump out.
And when are you thinking?

Jenny (02:00:49):
I wanted to say something about what teach said, and I didn't
have anything specific in mind.
It just impacted me so much.
It was very simple.
Like not like, I mean, like to thepoint where he was basically just
saying like, I have everyone hasmasculine and feminine in them.

(02:01:12):
So being able to access both ofthose and know how they fit into
who I am as a person and what thatsays about my place in the world.
And I was like, whoa, Like he wenta lot deeper than the other two.
Um, because there's where the, bothof both Jay and Sam were talking

(02:01:35):
about external, physical things,like assless, chaps, nail, Polish
clothing affect, you know, all that.
So, and then teach just, I mean, Tjust said, yeah, I agree with Jay.
So the three of them, which is fine,there's nothing wrong with that.
Like having external experiencesis, you know, one of the reasons

(02:01:59):
we process the world, but Tishawas like, I need to be able to put
that in the larger context of who I
am.
Yeah.

Loran (02:02:10):
Yeah.
That's really beautiful.
It's also, as you were talkingabout like the assless chaps
and then he'll Polish and theseexternalized pieces, just say, ask

Jenny (02:02:18):
this chest just to make me laugh.
Sorry.
I don't know why.

Loran (02:02:21):
Um, to me it connects to, uh, like queer and trans community
people who are actively fucking withgender expression and identification.
And that kind of like being yourselfand being authentic and who you are and
being hated and murdered and beaten andyelled at and catcalled and spot on.

(02:02:47):
And for that to go into masculinitybecause it's become more.
Okay.
And I'm saying that like hugeair quotes, um, I think was
really something that it is now.
Uh it's okay.
Question mark for a White, straightman to wear nail Polish, to wear ashlis

(02:03:11):
chops and to think, oh, how progressive?
Well, that's amazing.
Oh, that is, that's really something

Jenny (02:03:17):
like you're taking a risk.
Right,

Loran (02:03:20):
right.
When it's predicated on the fuckingwith gender, the masculinizing of
bodies that were assigned male at birth.
Right.
That's fascinating.
Like I'm wondering likehow that fits and reads.

(02:03:40):
Cause I, I'm not trying to like shamethem in any capacity, but it is like,
how do we make that more authentic intomasculinity that they're not brave?
That they're not doing anythingprogressive by wearing the L
Polish, but rather oh, okay.
It's just another fuckingperson wearing nail

Jenny (02:04:00):
Polish.
I think more of them have to do it.
Yeah.
I think there's always that time whensomebody kind of busts through any sort
of socially held expectations where peopleare like, oh my gosh, you're so brave.
Because in a way they are, if they're likeby themselves, like kick into the curb,

(02:04:24):
you know, whatever is expected of them.
And then after a while it's like,okay, I'm not brave for living
life more than anyone else's.
And I don't know if that's right or wrong.
I just know, like, when you think aboutall the stuff that's gone, that's happened

(02:04:46):
with people who, um, you know, bodystuff like people who are bigger, you
know, getting what's the right verbiage.
Sorry, I don't know.

Loran (02:04:56):
Break body positivity.

Jenny (02:04:58):
No.
Like when like a lot of the larger models,like what's the right verbiage for them.

Loran (02:05:05):
I mean, that's going to change person to person.
I never heard anything fromlike heavy to plump to fat.
Like it's it really it's so user based.

Jenny (02:05:17):
Okay.
Well, You know, I follow a lot of like,love your body folks on Instagram.
And when, um, when that all firststarted, when people were advocating
for larger sizes for men and women andnon-binary folks eventually came into

(02:05:38):
that picture also, um, there was a lotof like, oh my gosh, they're so brave.
Or like Lizzo on the cover of heralbum being naked, like look at her
being so brave and relatively quickly,when you think of the time span of
history, we've gotten to this point nowwhere a lot of those folks are saying,

(02:05:59):
I'm not brave for living in my body.
Like, I shouldn't be seen as brave.
I should just be ableto exist in the world.
Right.
So then it becomes almost a burden.
So I don't know what the right answer was.
I just kind of spout it off at the mouth.
I'm sorry.

(02:06:19):
I'm always here for youwith a good apology.

Loran (02:06:23):
All right.
You want to jump back in and that'sto play it to White supremacy.
How does White supremacynegatively impact you if at all?
How does racism negatively impact youand not in the reverse racism sense,
but in the Whiteness White supremacysteps, there's a whole lot that you

Sam (02:06:40):
don't get to experience because you put yourself above it, right?
Like it is the world is.
The world is, is empty, right?
Like the, the lovely lady that, thatJay was speaking of, who's in town.
Right.
She's doing these crazy things.
Right.
All because she's just beinga person around other people.

(02:07:04):
Yeah, sure.
But like,

T. (02:07:06):
there are people I was going to say with, um, White supremacy, sort
of the same sort of thing, thing thatI said, uh, to the prior question
in that, those ways in which itimpacts me, that I'm not aware of.
And I sort of learned of some of thosewith some, this, this social justice

(02:07:27):
course, but just the things that I'm notso-called cognizant of, um, or ways, I
guess the thing that bothers me was thediscovery that I have all these privileges
that have been stolen or given me, givento me over other people, which have given
me such a leg up from the day I was born,like in some way, I think when I first

(02:07:49):
learned that it, it really bothered me abit like, fuck God, that's not fair, man.
Like, I didn't ask for this.
Like, why do I have to have all this?
Like, you know, it bothered meor it frustrated me at the time,
but, um, I'd say, yeah, I guessthat's, that's sort of, and comment,

J. (02:08:12):
I think.
Thank you.
That's really good.
I think I actually agree.
I agree a lot with.
Um, and I'll say that if I zoom outand look at my life as much as I act
anti-racists, as much as I talk aboutit, as much as I believe in it, if I
zoom out and look at my, my weddinginvitation list of 50 people, there's

(02:08:34):
only a handful of people of Color inthere and not a single Black person.
The people of Color who are invitedare middle Eastern or Asian.
And I have to, I have to recognizethat whether that was by design
or subconscious, I live in aWhitewashed world that limits my
perspective about what is possiblein relationship to other people.

(02:08:57):
And when I spent time at burning man,or when I spend time in anti-racist
trainings for my university, withpeople of Color, and I feel that sense
of community across races and acrossreligions and across ethnicities, I
go back to that feeling of freedom.
Like, holy shit, there's a world outsideof White supremacy that I don't even

(02:09:19):
know if I could even fathom as possible.
So frankly, my life islimited because of it.
And that hurts me,

Sam (02:09:26):
but I think that's the thing, right?
It's because the world is so open outsideof that box, that it's terrifying.
People lean on walls of pain.
People lean on walls of things that hurtthem because they know where the wall is.
Cause it, it has a sensitive.
Like happiness is this idea.
And openness is this idea thatis so open and so impossible to

(02:09:50):
understand having limits that you'relike, I'm in the middle of nowhere.
It's like, it's like that scene inBruce almighty where Morgan Freeman
and, uh, you know, you know, I'm fuckingup this, I don't remember who it is.
Remind me who it is quick.
Give it to me, Jim Carrey, Jim Carrey.
There you go.
Right.
Jim Carrey and Steve, Steve Carell.
Why am I doing this?
Jim Carrey and Morganpremier are in a White room.

(02:10:11):
And it's so White that youcan't tell if it has walls.
You can't even really tell ifit has a floor or a ceiling.
And that's what happiness is.
And that's what freedom is.
But because there is almostnothing you're like, does this
have substance or does it not?
Will the floor fall out?
Um, I'm

Tej (02:10:27):
thinking a lot about as far as his racism and White supremacy and how it
affects me, like naturally I think ofmy child, cause he's, he's biracial.
And, um, that creates this wholeother fear of parenthood that I kind
of like, I can't really access it.
I don't like I can't teach him whatit's like to be Black in America.

(02:10:49):
I just have nothing there.
Like I, I can't, I can't do it.
And if racism didn't exist, if Whitesupremacy didn't exist and I'm not just
talking about it as a concept in theworld, I mean, I'm sure I have some.
Tendencies as well, you know, likethat just kind of, wouldn't be a
concern as far as raising my kid.

(02:11:10):
And not that there's really ashortage of things to worry about
as a parent, but it's, you know,it'd be nice not to have to worry

Loran (02:11:18):
about that.
I have a quick question.

J. (02:11:21):
You're you have a son, correct?
Biracial Black and White son.
Yes.
So there's a piece there that I've, thatI, I learned from other Black men that I
worked with that in America, there is a,there's an interwoven and interconnected
belief that all Black men are eithercriminals or soon to be criminals.
And so what I'm hearing you say, andI don't want to steal words for me.

(02:11:43):
I don't want to try to take, but what I'mhearing you say is that I don't want to
have to worry about the world thinkingthat my son's a criminal and then the
repercussions that, that might bring yes.

Tej (02:11:53):
To an extreme.
Yeah.
But I mean, there's plenty ofother social dinner disadvantages
that will take place for since.
I mean, I don't know if I have anotherexample that would be, that would be an
extreme or just like, you know, on thatend of the spectrum, but there's a whole
host of disadvantages that minoritiesface that I just don't know about

(02:12:13):
that are a reality in American in the

Sam (02:12:16):
world.

J. (02:12:17):
If he's, if he's straight, then if he bring, if he goes to a White
girl's house for problem, that Whitedaughters, father might not like him.

Tej (02:12:28):
Two summers ago, when, when racial uproar in the country really cut, it
hit a peak with the George Floyd murder.
He, he, he started to gain someawareness as far as like his own
disadvantages and being a person inthe world is pretty light-skinned.
But he, he, you know, it's there,he he's really worried that

(02:12:50):
the police are gonna kill him.
And I don't know how to tell him.
I don't want to tell him it's going tobe okay because that's not necessarily
true, but I also don't want themto think that the cops are just
going to kill people for no reason.
Yeah.
There's supposed to protect you, but basedon the color of your skin, that doesn't
always go as smoothly as we'd like it.
And I don't know how to teach him that.

(02:13:12):
I mean, there's a lot of things aboutbeing a parent in general that I
don't know, but it's just, it makes itpretty complicated, which I just wish
I didn't have to worry about that part.

Jenny (02:13:27):
I just want to hold that shit for a second.
That a child is worried thatthe cops are gonna kill him.
And that a dad does not know, ora parent does not know how to.

(02:13:51):
Tell reassure him because he himselfknows that it, that could be a reality.
And then you sort of add in
the
fact that the son is biracial and the father is White.

(02:14:17):
And I think that's one of themost vulnerable things that has
been said so far is teach beinglike, I don't know how to do this.

Loran (02:14:30):
Right.
Well, I think to me that's a majorcornerstone of what both masculinity
and Twite mess of always havingto have the answers and to hear a
White man say, I don't know is huge.
It was

Jenny (02:14:45):
huge.
Goes back to that bravery thing thatwe were talking about, but I don't
think he thinks of it that way.
I think he's just like,well, yeah, I'm conjecturing.
I don't know.
But I feel like he's justlike, I don't know what to do.
Like there was almost panic there.

Loran (02:15:06):
And it's really interesting to hear Jay's support of that panic of all right.
Well, let's troubleshoot.
So like what would happen?
Uh, if someone sees them on the streetand they think he's a criminal or will
be a criminal, or let's troubleshootif it's prom night and it's fucking
date dates, parent is racist.

(02:15:27):
As you can hear, I hear like terror,I hear terror and Tejas voice.
Yeah.
The,

Jenny (02:15:40):
the time I heard it the most was when Jay asked him.
So are you worried about when somebodylooks at him, they'll see a criminal and
he was like, I mean, not at the extreme,you know, but it's like, you can tell
that that's of course, exactly what he's.
I mean, I'm sure he's worried about,you know, I was reading, um, I'm still

(02:16:04):
here by Austin, Channing brown, andshe writes that her parents named her
Austin, which is typically in thiscountry, a White boy's name, White
man's name because they wanted her.
To be able to get her foot in the doorof opportunities that had they named her

(02:16:26):
something else she would not have been.
And then she says, as an adult, I getinvited into these spaces and I walk in
and people don't know what to do withthemselves because they're expecting a
White man, regardless of what I've puton my cover letter or anything like that.

(02:16:47):
She's like, I always say who I am andI walk in and people are still like,
what, what do we do with this person now?
So it's like that same.
Like they put that in place toprotect her and now she's having
to navigate life with that.
And I think I see that wassaying about his son.

Loran (02:17:11):
And I think the difference is that Austin's parents had the foresight to
need to get Austin and here's teach going.
I don't know what the fuck to do.

Jenny (02:17:20):
Yes.
Yes.
It's very different.

Loran (02:17:24):
Um, I really am liking the, like the misconnections, the, we
didn't ask for this, the limitedpossibility is, um, yeah, these
are all really, really profoundand really special kind of insights
into how Whiteness impacts them too.
And.

(02:17:45):
I think I'd also like to invite themto think more fully about what their
experience or commitment to the work is.
I mean, this is the first timewe're really hearing one of
these White men really groundthis work into vulnerability.
When we're talking about his kid, thisis deeply personal for TJ in a way
that, like, it just feels differentfrom what the others have said.

(02:18:08):
And then, I mean, this is a dailyconversation and struggle for teach in
a way that everyone else hasn't namedit as something that is continual or
like there's no real, um, like calendaror timeframe associated with it.
It's like they can turn it off or on if,and when they want to like thinking about

(02:18:30):
what we don't know, making our worldmore full than limiting us, like thinking
about these things can be really episodic.
And like, what does that show other Whitemen who are in community with them when
the work of racial equity is episodic.
Um, I'm currently in this classright now, the repaired of community
consultations for White bodies.

(02:18:52):
And the facilitator said this reallyhaunting thing that recently in
response to White people, missingmeetings or not showing up to
community, and it's like 400 Whitepeople coming together to work through.
And with racial justice under this likesomatic framework, and the facilitator
said, if we were giving you a freecar at the end of this program, we

(02:19:13):
wouldn't be having this conversation.
But every year we have to plead with Whitefolks to stay consistent with the program.
And the program is like being betterWhite people in our bodies so that we
can go into racial justice and not feelas like triggered, or we can start to
like temper our, uh, like our moralinjury or our, um, traumatic responses.

(02:19:38):
And with Sam and T and J it feelsa little bit like, take it or
leave a, like, I'll get to it.
And like, I can empathize with that.
Like, it's a station we holdourselves up in before committing
to the work in the long term.
And sometimes the station is thislike comfort zone that can help us

(02:20:00):
return back into ignorance or apathy,or like non-movement and yeah,
like I'd love a more full world.
Oh, it's too bad.
We didn't get there.
Maybe next generation we'll do it.
But do you remember what you weresaying in the shoot block for
intergenerational trauma and howwe're planting the seeds for trees?
We will never sit under these responsesexcept for teach feel like, oh, we bought

(02:20:24):
the seed packet and we could water them,or we could not, but like they did buy
the seed packets and that's beautiful.
That was like a wonderfulstep in the right direction.
I like, just invite them to like, considerif that commitment is sustainable and
if they're here to plant and water,or if they just wanna hold on to

(02:20:47):
these seeds and kind of like, holdthem around and like, that's, that's
as much as they can do right now.
And like, yeah, for right now, I'm sure.
But like what's happening down the road?
How are we making this sustainable?
No, what I

Jenny (02:21:01):
noticed about T specifically, and I don't mean this to sound, cause
I think I sent this in different waysthroughout our, uh, throughout this.
Um, and I don't mean to judge him, likethat's, you know, where I like laid
into him about the British, but, um, Inoticed that he, like, when he talks, he

(02:21:21):
doesn't take responsibility for stuff.
What do you mean?
Like, like it's always, when hementions how the states do stuff, I
did that in air quotes and I'm like,you're, you're living here, you know?
Or like when he said all this stuff wastaken from me and that's not fair, like

(02:21:43):
there's no, I don't feel like there's alot of responsibility taking there and why
I bring that up is not to judge him, butbecause it, it exposes in me that saying.
Same willingness to belike, yeah, that shit sucks.
And like, somebody else didit and now I'm suffering.

(02:22:05):
You know what I mean?
And also allowing White men to do stuffand me being like, oh, that's cause
patriarch, he helped hurts you too.
But then being like, no, no, wait,I also need to hold you accountable.
I also need to hold myself accountable.
Right?

(02:22:25):
So it's like, where is that balance?
Does balance exist?
Both.
And I can stop talking.
I suddenly went from tired to like,

Loran (02:22:38):
and it's a focus group.
I'll do it to you.
Um, to me, this is why likethe very second or third post
that The Spillway ever did onsocial media was about pronouns.
And it was, we will always use, wewhen talking about White people,
conservative White people, liberalWhite people, independent White people.

(02:22:58):
It's we, it's not, they, it's notthose people over there in this weird
amorphous, no responsibility land.
Um, but in this interconnectedness,it's a way it's an us.
And I think that that is where, so,so many White people, this identical

(02:23:20):
disidentify with other White peopleor with even being White in general,
'cause we're just supposed tobe better than, and I think that
that's even what Sam touches on.
Yeah.
Let's go back in.

Sam (02:23:36):
And then also, how do you give him his innocence back or his confidence?
Right.
If you're sitting around fearingthings or sitting around and I'm like,
you've been thrust into an opposite,it's like an external perspective,
but you've been thrust into thisworld where danger is everywhere.
Right.
And like bad things happen everywhere.
Like he can't be a kid anymore.

(02:23:56):
He can't be a kid.
Who's just like, I'm going to gorun and play and do my own thing.
Like it's like, nah, I'malways looking behind my back.
Yeah.
I mean, there's

Tej (02:24:04):
a million ways you can fuck up kid.
Right.
But want to, I'm not, I'm not gonna, Ijust don't have the chops for that topic.
You

Loran (02:24:12):
know, I really don't want to in this conversation, uh, and we need to,
so if I can, if you can just indulgeme with 60 seconds for each of you,
I would like, I just want to ask eachof you to pull out your soap box.
You have this very littlemicrophone right in front of you.
There's going to be a whole bunch ofWhite people that are listening to this

(02:24:33):
so far within the episodes that we have.
It's even hitting internationalairwaves, which is really interesting.
I think people are really interestedin the hungry for this conversation.
What do you want to tell White people?
You have this microphonein front of you get it out.
Uh, people are folding theirlaundry right now, listening to you.
People that are sitting in traffic,people are just trying to commute to work.

(02:24:56):
What do you need totalk to them right now?
I'm going to give everyoneeach person 60 seconds.
And then we will say our goodbyes.
I think what I have to say

Sam (02:25:03):
is a little bit of a repetition of things that I've said so
far, but it would go with that.
Everybody wants to be good, right?
No one wants to look in the mirrorand think, oh, I'm a terrible person.
Right.
Raise issues.
As we were talking about,like, they hit a head, right.
And, and the talked about everywhereall the time now on that taken advantage

(02:25:25):
for political means, and they areused to isolate and ostracize people.
But the only thing that like has beenaccomplished is division and, um,
and justice is about balance and raceissues have become less about justice.
And more of that, that I said like amoment ago, but, but also like kind of

(02:25:46):
like revenge, like people are made to feellike invisible, like White, White people
are made to feel invisible the same waythat they made minorities feel invisible,
but that's not gonna, it's not gonna work.
Um, it goes to like asense of identity, right?
Like it's very important for people tohave an identity for better or worse.

(02:26:07):
And,
uh,
it's it's that like, these people grew up, like spend their
lives, thinking that they were good.
And all of a sudden theywere told no, you're the.
And they, they were like, but, butI followed what I was supposed to.
I was good to my family and I was good tomy church and did all these great things.

(02:26:29):
And now you're telling me that I fucked upand say, I'm the same forties and fifties.
I'm so old that like, I couldn'teven fathom doing it different, but
like, my life is over and now myworld has been turned upside down.
So I don't know if I necessarilyhave an answer, but that's
just kind of how I see it.

Loran (02:26:52):
I would say to all

Tej (02:26:53):
White people, that the only thing you're entitled to is

Sam (02:26:56):
loud.

Loran (02:26:57):
Oh, thank you.

T. (02:27:00):
I liked that a lot.
Thank you.
I was going to say for me, like, I'mspeaking when you're saying people now
it'll work or anything, I encourageevery single person to take just 60
seconds and breathe, become more awareof yourself, how you react to people,
how you interact with people, becausethe more you're aware of yourself, the

(02:27:22):
more you can become aware of others,frankly, the more we understand each
other, the less likely we are to harm each

Loran (02:27:28):
other.

J. (02:27:31):
I would like to say that I am a White man who grew up in rural
Ohio toiling in hayfields anddairy farms, shin deep in calcium.
Nothing was easy for me.
I grew up.
My mother didn't eat at times so thatI could, that doesn't mean that I

(02:27:54):
haven't I've had, I've had, I've hada hard life, but I've also had other
advantages and having privilege doesn'tmean I haven't that someone's taking
away how difficult my life has been.
It's just saying that therehave been things there've been
fewer barriers along the way.
For me, I haven't had to worryabout housing discrimination or

(02:28:17):
voting rights discrimination.
I haven't had to worry about wholived near me or whether or not I was
going to get healthy food or whetheror not a cop was going to hurt me.
I just haven't had thatstuff in front of me.
And in all the years that I'vedone this work, I felt shame.
I felt guilt.
And if you're listening right now andyou feel shame and you feel guilt and

(02:28:40):
you feel like you're the problem, I wantyou to know that you are not the problem.
The way we have beensocialized is a problem.
You are not the problem.
And that there are people out therewho are going to be willing to get
in the dirt with you and work throughthis and love you through the process.
Because as Taj beautifully said, theonly thing you're entitled to is love.

(02:29:02):
And there are other White people that arewilling to love you through that process.

Loran (02:29:05):
Thank you so much for joining me.
Um, why is there an extra five minutes?
I feel like this is such agift that we were just given.

Jenny (02:29:17):
Um, it is a wonderful gift.
I think it's the music.
And is it like didn't, we record alsolike a, I think we did an after for
this already, because this is a first

Loran (02:29:29):
draft.
Uh, I'm going to in therecording here, we ended up,

Jenny (02:29:41):
that was a lot.
We're going to unpack that
in a different episode

Loran (02:29:51):
and here we are.
Can we, or we're in adifferent episode now?
Um, again, I, okay.
I just need to say this around the,the only thing you're entitled to is
love, because I feel like this was areally important Eureka moment for me.
When I hear that there is part of me,this really, uh, unfortunate shaming part

(02:30:14):
of me, this is my shame culture talkingthat says a White man is entitled one of
course, but then to, to love is skeevy.
It sounds rapey.
Um, and it sounds manipulate.

(02:30:37):
I don't know, I am entitled to your love.
I am entitled to your body.
And however I'm defining love.
And it has taken me like a couple ofweeks of like listening and sitting
with this, this episode specificallyto like really set and acknowledging
my like roots and shame culture andhow deeply embedded I was in that and

(02:31:02):
how it wasn't until there was a momentlike this, where someone who, and we've
talked about this multiple times, howthis person basically just repeats Fred
jealous, but I couldn't hear it from him.
I couldn't hear it from cage, butI could hear it from, from fraud.
Right.
And just the work that I needto do unpacking my fucking shame

Jenny (02:31:27):
and also you're
hurt.
Yeah.

Loran (02:31:30):
I mean, I actually think I've got some gendered harms.
Yes.
Yeah.
Like full-blown H a R M not a hurt.
Yeah.

Jenny (02:31:39):
You've got, you've got some, some stuff that has happened that isn't
just that you need to fix your thinking.
Right.
There's like some healingthat probably needs to go on.

Loran (02:31:51):
Right.
Well, and I think that this is where,when we're talking about cancel culture,
it's the inability to believe that peoplecan change, can change, can culture.
And so if it is, you know, here's thisbeautiful human who's talking about
the ability and the power of love.
I have to know that I can change myperception of others and that this person

(02:32:14):
can change how they are experiencing loveand like putting it out into the world.
And so that's yeah.
That's, that's on me too.
Yeah,

Jenny (02:32:24):
I guess so I just, maybe it's because I love you
and I'm like, oh, don't be so
hard on your zonal or whatever, but

Loran (02:32:35):
our futures are co-created right.
So created.
So I had to take ownership in what Iam doing and yeah, he's got to take
ownership in what he's doing too,but I'm responsible for my own damn
self that's the like gender piece.
But then the weight piece it'slike, yes, at the core of every

(02:32:57):
single person is lovability ispreciousness is connectivity,

Jenny (02:33:03):
but can you heal that gendered piece with, you know, I'm S I know
you're saying it, you know, you'retaking responsibility for it, but can you
heal that gendered piece in isolation?
Is that what you're saying?
Or is it like,

Loran (02:33:15):
I think, I think they're totally connected.
Um, I think they're connectedand they think they're isolated.
It has, that's another, both, and it'sanother nuance piece in that, like,
gender is its own thing, but also whatdoes that mean to hold his experience?
And my experience withus, both being White.

(02:33:36):
And so I can, and don'twant him to get that either.
Right?
Like I w I would rather makehealing be intersectional about
this flat two dimensional,sad, one, bump, something else.
I wanted to say that I lost.
Oh, right then it's your core ispreciousness is lovability, but

(02:33:58):
your Whiteness didn't do that.
Your being White didn't make youprecious or lovable, you're being
manned and make you precious or lovable.
Just the fact that you're here,devoid of every single identity,
every single one of them.
Well, I guess the only identity youwould need is that you're alive.
You're living.

Jenny (02:34:20):
I don't really know if I have anything to add to that.
Oh, no.
Are you broken?
Um, that I really just feel like, yeah.
And I get why, you know, you justexplained to me why you received teaches
you received teaches thing that way.

(02:34:41):
Um, so I totally totally understand it.
And also, um, I just, it,for me, it was a moment of
hope.
Um,
however, throughout this entire thing, I have had multiple moments
of like stuff showing up for me.

(02:35:05):
Where I'm like, oh, I needto, I need to look at that.
That's a painful place what's in there.

Loran (02:35:13):
It's open it.
Um, I don't know if you can see mynotes, but I have this line down the
middle of the screen and on the rightside are my notes from my therapist.
It's like, oh, that'ssome, you gotta work out,

Jenny (02:35:28):
buddy.
Yeah.
Well, and your therapist, agreat vacation, which they're not
supposed to be able to allow to do.
So get back to biz nest.

Loran (02:35:37):
I need to send you my PowerPoint, my 10 point plan about how
we're supposed to get back on track.
The other thing I was thinking, andthis is maybe the last thing that I'm
thinking in terms of what they were saying

Jenny (02:35:51):
before.

Loran (02:35:53):
I think privilege only works for conversations of privilege, only
work when you're in a mixed space.
And I think that this is why so many Whitepeople don't understand privilege because
we live in such segregated society.
Now, That it's, I dunno, it'sreally hard for me to get a job.
It's really hard for me to paymy bills and like the whole class
conversation that comes in with it.

(02:36:15):
And a lot of that I think is becausethere's so much segregation, that
race becomes invisibilized whenyou're in this like all White place.
And then, so it becomes about class.
And so I think it was actually,it was Jay that was probably
talking about pro at the very end.
And I was like, oh wait, I actuallydon't know if all White people are
going to be able to tap into thisconversation of privilege based on

(02:36:38):
how segregated we have become maybe.

Jenny (02:36:41):
I mean, Tesia and Sam both work like labor jobs, you know, blue
collar type jobs, J and T are theones that are in academia if you will.
So I think, I think it mightbe, and none of them, or maybe

(02:37:01):
I wasn't paying attention, butnone of them said or heard it.
Right.
We're like, or like Sam and teach,didn't say like, I am struggling.
You know what I mean?
Like there wasn't, I'm notarticulating myself correctly,
but I think, you know what I mean?

Loran (02:37:17):
I think we've maybe also gone so far past the point
of like, talking about this.
We have talked this one to death.
Oh my

Jenny (02:37:23):
gosh.
Into the grave.

(02:37:54):
should we do like a little thing where I'mlike, Hey friends, thanks for listening.
Just a little reminder rate review,subscribe, share with your friends.
Helps us out there.
It just didn't.

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