June 4, 2022 • 32 mins
How should White people respond/act/feel/think after another White nationalist massacre?
In this special episode Jenny and Loran hold space for each other and other White people in a way that honors the paradox of being White in the US. We’ll reconvene with our regularly scheduled focus group next week.
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In the episode Loran references the Ashtin Berry Instagram post which may be found here.
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For a transcript of this episode and more, please visit our website, www.thespillway.org
Mentioned in this episode:
The Spillway Community Guidelines
1. Engage sequentially. The show is a serial not episodic. We do this so we can build relation and find common ground and context. 2. We stay in our own lane. The Spillway is about White people talking to (predominately) White people about White people and White culture. We're not out here to critique anyone's actions but our own. 3. Our combined fabric of destiny. (3a) As Dr. King said, our humanities are deeply interconnected to each other. Racism negatively impacts me, too. (3b) The Spillway is one mechanism within a larger framework needed to sustain racial equity and justice. We're not a one-stop shop. 4. No one right way to liberation. We all share the same goals, but not every method works for every person. If this doesn't work for you. That's okay. Maybe it works for someone else.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Loran (00:04):
When violence happens against and to people of Color, White people
have a vast spectrum of responses fromcomplete inaction and not thinking
about it and refusing an emotionalresponse to a hyper fixation on
action round the clock thinking andvigilant emotional dysregulation.
Both of these responses, completelyrefuse to acknowledge our own humanity
(00:29):
and the need to put on our own oxygen mask
first.
In 1963, Martin Luther King wrotein Strength to Love "In a real
sense, all life is interrelated.
All people are caught in aninescapable network of mutuality,
tied in a single garment of destiny."
(00:53):
Paralyzing responses happen frominaction to being stuck in overdrive.
Neither of these are sustainableand here, Jenny and I want to hold
space for each other and for otherWhite people in a way that honors the
paradox of being White in the U S.
We'll reconvene with our regularlyscheduled focus group next week.
But for now, join us in this space.
(01:14):
If you'd like.
(01:45):
I feel like my brain is going a hundredmiles a minute and I don't really
sure where to start or what to do.
Jenny (01:50):
Um, why don't you
talk about what came up for you?
We can start there.
I mean, we don't have to use it.
Loran (02:03):
My very first thought as soon as a notification popped
up on New York Times on my phonewas, oh, I hope my friends arew
okay.
Two humans that I lovethat are in Buffalo.
And then my second thought was, "wow,this is becoming more common, like just
a few weeks before was, uh, the shootingand the New York city subway system."
(02:27):
Uh, and so like the uptick inincidents, like of this level of
this magnitude, cause mass shootingshappen, unfortunately every day.
Hmm.
Um, that was point twoand then point three.
Was this like really awful scratch?
Just like in the back of my headof like, "I really hope this wasn't
racially motivated" and then it was, Imean, they're still saying allegedly,
(02:51):
but based off of all of the piecesthat are coming through the news about
like what was inscribed on his gun.
Uh, the great replacement theory thathe was talking about, like on his live
stream, on his way up there, uh, likeall of these signs are like clearly
pointing to this is White supremacy.
(03:12):
This is White supremacists,White nationalism, terrorism.
Uh, and just the fact that like,having to say allegedly, because he
hasn't been convicted yet, or thatlike, when he went in front of a
fucking judge, he pled not guilty.
Like the fuck what the fuck like that.
And when I get really sad,
(03:36):
So fucking frustrated that Blackpeople can't go grocery shopping
without fearing for their lives.
Like, it just feels so intentional tobe like, you can't have food, I will
kill you while you try to get food tosustain your life to nourish your body.
(03:57):
And then I had this moment.
Um, so you texted methat the morning after.
With the New York Times article thatwas like updating as it was going on.
And I know this wasn't your intention.
Your intention was for it to like landas a compliment, but I became terrified.
(04:21):
Uh, when you said, ah, "I didn't knowabout the great replacement theory until
you told me about it, or I wouldn't haveknown about this without your work."
And then I immediately felt.
Because I guess the just likelarger context, we're also in the
process of people receiving TheSpillway podcasts out of context,
and then contacting us and being.
(04:42):
Whoa, this is so problematicand we're like, whoa, hold on.
This is a serial, it'snot an episodic show.
What do you mean?
Oh, well I didn't read or listenedto the other episodes, but you
need to change this regardless.
And so this whole, like outof context thing has been
like in the back of my mind.
(05:03):
Because we're having these conversations,these recorded conversations and people
are dipping in whenever they want to.
And so what if there's some stupid fuckingWhite nationalists listening to this?
And it's like, oh, because of The SpillwayI know about the great replacement theory.
Let me go over here to Four Chan and fuckup some shit and then became like, oh my
(05:23):
God, how, how, how do we do this work?
How, how do I do this work in public?
And again, I'm reiterating, Iknow that wasn't your intention.
At all.
And so it's been really, I have had a lot of, um, a lot of
like deep sads, a lot of grief.
Uh, I like greive for the futuresthat we won't know because these types
(05:48):
were taken from us from the world.
And also like, it just makes me want todo the work all that much more because
like, it's such a clear demonstration.
Uh, that White people are fucking hurtingand hurting so bad, but not calling
it hurt and killing people because wedevalue mental health because we devalue
(06:10):
education because we devalue community.
I mean, those are somebold statements that, yeah.
And there's exceptions to everyrule, but like, and then there's
this other piece too, Jenny, wherethis awful massacre has happened.
And I do not want to then and chime in andbe like, Hey, I've got a service that's
(06:33):
going to help with us, or like help withthe pain or the hurt, or try to capitalize
off this in any fucking capacity.
Um, because we are culturally,not at a place, uh, where we are
thinking about our combined destiny.
(06:54):
And that our humanity is wrapped upin this moment too, as White people,
that we are hurting and grieving andhave moral injury, that we have a
perpetrated induced traumatic stressbecause of this fucking asshole.
And some of us are going toget stuck in this moment and
it will radicalize more people.
(07:18):
How did it play outfor you since Saturday?
Jenny (07:24):
Well, I didn't know about it until Sunday actually.
Cause I was, that's why I sent youthe article a day late because I
thought it had ha washappening in real time.
When I was looking atit, it was con I wasn't,
um, I was wrapped up in, in workingand didn't see it until then.
(07:52):
Um, so I actually, my, my partnertold me about it in the car where
we were headed to go have lunch.
And then it was like, so you knowthat, so, or something's happened.
So I was like, okay, buckle in.
And, uh,
(08:16):
he
told me.
You know, break down of what had happened.
My first thought was of just hopelessness,like all of the color drained down in
my face and I was just like, lift some
fucking shit.
And then I was like, okay,well it's already happened.
(08:41):
I can't change that, butwhat can I do moving forward?
And I was like, well,Loran's work is about this.
And I need to take what I've learnedand start having conversations because
that's what I do best is I talk.
(09:01):
So I did, I had it with my partner.
I had it with my relative and.
I don't see a lot of people every day.
So there is that problem, but Iwent through my books and I found
books that would educate me on howto talk more, um, about this with
(09:23):
confidence, but also, and also withcompassion, um, because I, I also.
Learn through books.
That's my, my school, mychurch, like, that's what I do.
So, so that's what I,that's what I've been doing.
It was more, I don't think I amallowing myself to understand the
(09:48):
amount of loss on a personal level.
Um,
I, I just, can't my heart, my heart.
Can't like, I can't, I, I, a partof it is that I don't want to shed
tears that aren't mine to shed.
(10:10):
Um, I th they don't need anotherWhite person crying over them.
They need.
Uh, specifically a White woman.
Um, they need me to get my shit togetherand start talking to other White people.
That's how you save lives.
(10:31):
So,
Loran (10:33):
so that.
Yeah.
I also just want to hold space thatmight get that's how you save lives.
And also like the reason that we'resaving lives is because they are alive.
They are people.
Jenny (10:43):
Oh, for sure.
No, I, and I totallyunderstand that part of it.
I'm not saying that they're notpeople, otherwise I wouldn't care,
but I also, I can't think I wrotein my morning pages this morning
that I like can't think about.
Those people individually,because if I do it'll crush me,
(11:03):
like, I can't think about that.
I think about them as a collective andthere was something great lost, and
that's all I'm allowing myself to feelright now, because if I go any further,
I will be paralyzed by fear and I willand sorrow, and I won't do anything.
I can't think about how each ofthem was a person and had dreams and
(11:25):
worries, and what the last thing theywere thinking before they went to
the grocery store, which was like,maybe like, oh shit, my phone's dying.
Or there's a rock in my shoe.
Or like, who knows?
Just human things.
I can't, I can't allow myself togo there only because I know myself
and then I won't do anything.
(11:46):
So I donated.
With some money to somewhere that Ithought would actually help specifically
the families of the people who died.
And once I am working more this week,and once I get more money, I'm going
to donate to organizations that aregoing to help the wider community.
(12:06):
And I'm going to keep educatingand keep talking and keep
showing up to this podcast.
And I hope that it makes a
Loran (12:12):
difference.
I love that we're having differentexperiences out of best that are both.
Like moving us and propellingour like, make our positions of
advantage and privilege in the world.
And also just acknowledging, youknow, the, the limitations that
(12:34):
we, that we have as just humans.
How, yeah.
How we show up or can't show up.
Jenny (12:38):
I mean, you know, me normally I'm just a puddle with anything,
just a little puddle of tears.
And I don't think that that's wrong.
But what I noticed with myself isthat if I allow myself to go there,
at least initially, when somethinghappens then, or you don't move forward,
(13:00):
I don't find anything to hold on to.
And I just drown.
So I, I made an active choicenot to do that this time.
Loran (13:09):
Yeah.
Yeah, no, I understand that.
I think there's this, um, Rudy Giulianiquote that is coming to my mind.
Jenny (13:22):
Was it when he was in front of the.
Yeah,
Loran (13:28):
He's such a fucking mess.
Um, but like, I want to say likea decade ago, um, my dad was like,
you should read his autobiography.
And I was like, okay, why?
Whatever.
Like, and I was like looking forsomething to read and he's like hit
me at the right time with this recc.
And so he picked it up, like notreally thinking too much about.
(13:51):
He said, "you can miss a wedding,but you can't miss a funeral."
And that's just like his little, like alittle adage that he lives by or lived by.
I'm not sure if he still adheres toit, but I thought like, that's so
brilliant that like, when, when thingsare happy and things are joyful.
It's great to be invited.
It's great to be included, but when weare hurting, when we are like in our
(14:15):
deep hurts and harms, and we don't knowwhich way is up: to be in community,
like what that does for ourselvesand for each other, like, it's huge.
It's huge.
And so maybe, yeah, it's like thisbroken clock moment, but it's.
I keep thinking about, uh,tears and White women tiers.
(14:40):
And that seems to be thislike really intense through
line throughout, not intense.
It's just like thisconsistent through line.
It feels intense to me because like,I think about it a lot too, because
as this non-binary femme-y human.
Like I cry a lot.
I've been like crying during this episodewhile we're recording and thinking.
(15:01):
Like, where are these tears coming from?
What are they doing?
Like, what purpose do they serve?
And I think it is like, it really isconnected to this like broader concept
of humanity and they feel healing.
They don't feel weaponized or like,uh, controlling or manipulative,
but rather we lost lives.
(15:23):
We lost human life this weekendbecause someone didn't like
the color of their skin.
Yeah.
We collectively, and that is so fucked up.
And so I, I grieve for the future that wewon't know, like the moth man prophecy.
(15:46):
The butterfly
Jenny (15:46):
effect.
I was like, wait, the kids in thecornfield with the weird moth thing with
the bridge, that's a different thing.
Yeah.
The butterfly effect.
Yeah.
Like if one thing hadbeen different, right?
Like if he'd gotten stuck in a trafficjam or pulled over, or, you know,
Loran (16:08):
anything, anyone on the fucking livestream, where to have called in
I've been like, This shit is happening.
Yeah, it's probably very clear.
Um, at least right now, from whatI've read through the times and the
AP is that it was well known thatthis person had problems like, uh,
(16:30):
social, emotional, relational problems.
I mean, he allegedly threatenedto shoot up his school, like this
person wasn't running around,trying to be in good relations.
With his community, but the communityfor whatever happened or for whatever
reason there wasn't, uh, like, uh,a White elder or a friend or, um,
(16:55):
another White person in this spaceto collect what is happening or
Jenny (17:00):
maybe there was, but it was went the other way,
Loran (17:04):
radicalize them even more?
Uh, fuck Jenny, that one here, sidewaysand hired and weird because shame culture
is not about building relationships.
I mean, to get into the,like, what about isms of that?
Like, I could only imagine some persondeeply invested in White shame was
just unrelenting and wasn't thereto build a relationship or an in.
(17:28):
I saw a picture online.
Um, and his parents sitting arounda Christmas tree and I kept thinking
about the communication breakdownthat all of them were experiencing,
or like, what, not only like, how didyou fail him as a parent, but like,
how did we fail him as a community,as neighbors, as other White people?
(17:50):
And I feel like that's whereI, that's part of like where
my moral injury comes from.
It's like witnessing or experiencing,failing to prevent like this.
Deeply held at the core beliefthat all life has value and
that Black Lives Matter.
And this human said, Nope.
(18:10):
Um, so Ashtin Berry this post thatwas sent to me by, uh, that I was like
tagged in for The Spillway Ashtin rights.
"White people do not want to hearthis, but if you are not in community
with BIPOC people, you are mostdefinitely raising a racist child.
The questions is will they bepassive or actively racist?
(18:34):
And what level of harm will they commit?
And at what pace will their actionsescalate or plateau and raising
White children in community withBIPOC people, isn't a cure all by any
means, but intimacy requires humanity.
And that is a bare minimum.
And many of you will feel fear over beingidentified as racist, but not concerned
(18:58):
about what that means for you as ahuman, we spend so much time discussing
what trauma does to Black people.
Frankly, I know firsthand whatit does, what I continue to be
perplexed by is the lack of studiesand discussion about Whiteness.
If epigenetics is the study ofheritable phenotype, why is it?
(19:18):
We are not discussing White supremacy.
Culture's traumatic influence onWhite people through generations.
I'm not sure how any White person canhear about what happened in Buffalo
and not question what terroristslie among their own communities.
Unnoticed.
I'm going to lose followersover this, and I don't care.
How many excuses need to be made foryour family members to participate in
(19:39):
White supremacy culture at every level?
If you have people who vote foranti-abortion laws, they are
committed to White supremacy.
If they vote against gun laws,they're committed to White supremacy.
If they are pro-police, they'recommitted to White supremacy.
And just not sure how White people areasking Black people, if we are okay
(20:00):
as if this is one sided, are you okay?
Are you okay with being part of acommunity that keeps cresting terrorists?
It's not normal to have regularpolice killings and violence shootings
of citizens, and it's not normal."
And it to me, like going back tolike, as this was like first heading
me, it was, oh my God, this isbecoming more normalized because of
(20:23):
what just happened in New York city.
Just a few weeks back.
I don't know how to like,do this episode at all.
What is
Jenny (20:30):
your, so what's your goal with this episode?
Loran (20:34):
That's a gret question.
What should our goal be?
Like if we, okay.
Yeah, let's create, let's try to createsome kind of like forward moving space
for White people on this because wecan't become paralyzed by this or frozen.
Uh, and so we continue to do the podcast.
We continue to do this work.
(20:56):
We continue on with The Spillway andhaving these conversations publicly, but
then like, what are we asking of Whitepeople in this moment as White people.
Like
Jenny (21:09):
if you're, if you are feeling any of the things that we're feeling
or you're related, you're relatingto them or feel strongly about
this and don't know where to go.
That's why The Spillway is here.
Reach out email.
Uh, reach out to The Spillwayon Instagram or Facebook.
(21:30):
We can have these conversations togetheras a community, and it can be a place
where we can unpack stuff and have agentle hand to help us move forward.
If we're not sure where to go,
Loran (21:46):
I'm not also licensed as an individual practitioner.
Uh, and so I can onlyhelp people like so much.
Uh, by my own professional capacity, butalso like legally, I think that that to
me is where The Spillway spaces are soimportant because I'm only one person
and two people can be in relationship.
(22:07):
Three people are in community.
And so The Spillway, which is anentirely free resource is a space
for White people to get together,to talk about our White feelings.
And to talk about White action todismantle White supremacy from the inside.
So where
Jenny (22:24):
do they do that then?
Like if The Spillway, is that the more,how do they, how do they access that?
Oh
Loran (22:33):
Instagram like Facebook, like, I mean, we're posting every single day.
A majority of my work thusfar has been people DM'ing me.
Gotcha.
And I do have individual conversationswith people, but I am like no
capacity have been asked, uh, tolike hold individual therapy space
for people or to be like, Hey,like, let's jump on this thing.
(22:54):
And like, let's unpack this, but rather.
Someone will share a post with me andbe like, oh, this is really frustrating.
Or, oh, I saw this and it made me thinkof like The Spillway's work, or whoa,
can you believe that this is happening?
And we'll have like a back andforth and I'll hold space for them
and hold space for their feelingsand their like, experience around
whatever's happening for them.
(23:16):
But to create like a consistentspace, it has also this like
larger invitation to invite yourWhite friends to the space too.
Um, because they think in much thesame way, Jenny, like you've said, like
you've used The Spillway to talk withyour partner to talk with your relative.
Um, sometimes you don't know thatthey need to talk too, or they
(23:36):
don't know that they have theaccess to that conversation too.
And so like having multiple peopleseeing the same prompt and then
sharing it, and then suddenly you'rein each other's DM's, just off of the,
like the stowaway prompt for that.
Going, oh my God.
I completely disagree with us.
What are you thinking?
Or this is the dumbestthing I've ever heard.
(23:56):
I don't understand.
And then you can talk it out in yourDM's together, but at least The Spillway
created a prompt for you to have thatconversation with another White person.
Uh, one of the other things that Iwould highly recommend, um, because
our work is so communal and because ourwork is about relationships and it is
relational, send a friendship requeststo everyone that you have unfriended
(24:18):
them because of their racist views,like White person to White person.
And I know that that one's reallyhard and that one can be really.
But we have, I think gone back into theseecho chambers that feel really safe.
And we started to create safe spaceswhen we really wanted a healing space,
because we instinctually knew thatWhite supremacy impacted us too, as
(24:39):
White people, but our privilege turnedinto saviorism and we just like swooped
in and said, oh no, no, no, yourpain is my pain rather than, oh wow.
I have my own fucking pain too.
Yeah.
I'm having more conversations with people.
Like that's I thinkanother immediate, like do.
What are the other things I'mthinking about is around action.
Is there an action.
(24:59):
Policies and laws are our value statementsas a culture and yeah, well, there's
this whole conversation about gun rightsand second amendment claims that will I
get can and should have its own episode.
I, I think it's safe to brieflymention policy around critical
race theory because we've alreadyhad this conversation with Dr.
Amy Hillier.
Um, like CRT is still being debated as weround out the end of the first school year
(25:25):
with this like newly elected school board,um, configuration across the states.
And so it's important to check in, to seehow policies around race and racism in our
education systems have, if at all changedand how we can like safeguard attempts to
create colorblind, culturally irrelevantracially illiterate education for, uh,
(25:46):
our children and within public schools.
And sometimes like, not evenwithin public schools, but just
like education, more broadly.
Jenny, what else are you thinking?
Jenny (25:57):
As a, as a organization, we need a, like you said, a strong community, but
one of the main problems is that Whitepeople don't have that sense of community
or if they do, they don't want it to be.
They want it to be alignedwith people of Color directly.
Loran (26:23):
Right.
And ask people of Colorto make White culture,
right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And to me, um, community and culturebuilding, uh, one of the things that I
just like learned through my educationis that it it's, it takes time.
I am in the clinical sense, Iam doing a community assessment
(26:45):
currently talking with as many Whitepeople as possible and trying to
figure out what White people need.
Jenny (26:50):
So it's like research.
Loran (26:51):
That's all that this podcast is to me is research.
And I think that that's where we've hita couple of snafoos and that like in
the very first episode of the show, Wetalk about the, "do see hear" model of
education, uh, the people need to seewhat's going on hear, what's happening.
(27:12):
And then we can like create into action.
But those first two stepsare incredibly important.
And that's what we're doing right here.
We don't know what the do is yet.
And these snafoos kind of havehappened as people approach the
podcast out of context, becausethey're completely missing.
Um, the foundational understandingthat this podcast is about research.
(27:32):
It's about trying to figure out the seeingand the hearings that we can translate
this all into a do into an action.
I have like, period, like I'vesprinkled, it you'll find like
throughout a few of the episodes.
And I'm like, we're talking about research
you?
Um, you Julia child research,
(27:53):
but we didn't start that way.
Um, rather than like, Hey, come alongon this journey, we're trying to build
White culture and to do White culture.
Part of that does requires research.
Jenny (28:04):
Understand.
Loran (28:07):
Um, how are you feeling about this conversation?
I feel like we've got like a lot forlike a good 20 maybe 30 minute episode.
Yeah.
I think it's going tobe hell to edit for you
though.
So this one I'll be up tomorrow.
I would rather, uh, stop and likeacknowledge this moment and try to
like organize and also grieve and likeit's, again that like duality be like
(28:30):
really fucking sad and frustrated.
Gutted and, uh, not stop and keepworking because this is huge fucking
reminder of to why we do this work.
Here's to Aaron Salter, RuthWhitfield, Pearly Young, Katherine
(28:52):
Massey, Deacon Heyward Patterson,Celestine Chaney, Roberta Drury.
Margus Morrison.
Andre MackNeil, Geraldine Talley.
We wish we knew your names andlives under different circumstances.
When violence happens against and to people of Color, White people
have a vast spectrum of responses fromcomplete inaction and not thinking
about it and refusing an emotionalresponse to a hyper fixation on
action round the clock thinking andvigilant emotional dysregulation.
Both of these responses, completelyrefuse to acknowledge our own humanity
(00:29):
and the need to put on our own oxygen mask
first.
In 1963, Martin Luther King wrotein Strength to Love "In a real
sense, all life is interrelated.
All people are caught in aninescapable network of mutuality,
tied in a single garment of destiny."
(00:53):
Paralyzing responses happen frominaction to being stuck in overdrive.
Neither of these are sustainableand here, Jenny and I want to hold
space for each other and for otherWhite people in a way that honors the
paradox of being White in the U S.
We'll reconvene with our regularlyscheduled focus group next week.
But for now, join us in this space.
(01:14):
If you'd like.
(01:45):
I feel like my brain is going a hundredmiles a minute and I don't really
sure where to start or what to do.
Jenny (01:50):
Um, why don't you
talk about what came up for you?
We can start there.
I mean, we don't have to use it.
Loran (02:03):
My very first thought as soon as a notification popped
up on New York Times on my phonewas, oh, I hope my friends arew
okay.
Two humans that I lovethat are in Buffalo.
And then my second thought was, "wow,this is becoming more common, like just
a few weeks before was, uh, the shootingand the New York city subway system."
(02:27):
Uh, and so like the uptick inincidents, like of this level of
this magnitude, cause mass shootingshappen, unfortunately every day.
Hmm.
Um, that was point twoand then point three.
Was this like really awful scratch?
Just like in the back of my headof like, "I really hope this wasn't
racially motivated" and then it was, Imean, they're still saying allegedly,
(02:51):
but based off of all of the piecesthat are coming through the news about
like what was inscribed on his gun.
Uh, the great replacement theory thathe was talking about, like on his live
stream, on his way up there, uh, likeall of these signs are like clearly
pointing to this is White supremacy.
(03:12):
This is White supremacists,White nationalism, terrorism.
Uh, and just the fact that like,having to say allegedly, because he
hasn't been convicted yet, or thatlike, when he went in front of a
fucking judge, he pled not guilty.
Like the fuck what the fuck like that.
And when I get really sad,
(03:36):
So fucking frustrated that Blackpeople can't go grocery shopping
without fearing for their lives.
Like, it just feels so intentional tobe like, you can't have food, I will
kill you while you try to get food tosustain your life to nourish your body.
(03:57):
And then I had this moment.
Um, so you texted methat the morning after.
With the New York Times article thatwas like updating as it was going on.
And I know this wasn't your intention.
Your intention was for it to like landas a compliment, but I became terrified.
(04:21):
Uh, when you said, ah, "I didn't knowabout the great replacement theory until
you told me about it, or I wouldn't haveknown about this without your work."
And then I immediately felt.
Because I guess the just likelarger context, we're also in the
process of people receiving TheSpillway podcasts out of context,
and then contacting us and being.
(04:42):
Whoa, this is so problematicand we're like, whoa, hold on.
This is a serial, it'snot an episodic show.
What do you mean?
Oh, well I didn't read or listenedto the other episodes, but you
need to change this regardless.
And so this whole, like outof context thing has been
like in the back of my mind.
(05:03):
Because we're having these conversations,these recorded conversations and people
are dipping in whenever they want to.
And so what if there's some stupid fuckingWhite nationalists listening to this?
And it's like, oh, because of The SpillwayI know about the great replacement theory.
Let me go over here to Four Chan and fuckup some shit and then became like, oh my
(05:23):
God, how, how, how do we do this work?
How, how do I do this work in public?
And again, I'm reiterating, Iknow that wasn't your intention.
At all.
And so it's been really, I have had a lot of, um, a lot of
like deep sads, a lot of grief.
Uh, I like greive for the futuresthat we won't know because these types
(05:48):
were taken from us from the world.
And also like, it just makes me want todo the work all that much more because
like, it's such a clear demonstration.
Uh, that White people are fucking hurtingand hurting so bad, but not calling
it hurt and killing people because wedevalue mental health because we devalue
(06:10):
education because we devalue community.
I mean, those are somebold statements that, yeah.
And there's exceptions to everyrule, but like, and then there's
this other piece too, Jenny, wherethis awful massacre has happened.
And I do not want to then and chime in andbe like, Hey, I've got a service that's
(06:33):
going to help with us, or like help withthe pain or the hurt, or try to capitalize
off this in any fucking capacity.
Um, because we are culturally,not at a place, uh, where we are
thinking about our combined destiny.
(06:54):
And that our humanity is wrapped upin this moment too, as White people,
that we are hurting and grieving andhave moral injury, that we have a
perpetrated induced traumatic stressbecause of this fucking asshole.
And some of us are going toget stuck in this moment and
it will radicalize more people.
(07:18):
How did it play outfor you since Saturday?
Jenny (07:24):
Well, I didn't know about it until Sunday actually.
Cause I was, that's why I sent youthe article a day late because I
thought it had ha washappening in real time.
When I was looking atit, it was con I wasn't,
um, I was wrapped up in, in workingand didn't see it until then.
(07:52):
Um, so I actually, my, my partnertold me about it in the car where
we were headed to go have lunch.
And then it was like, so you knowthat, so, or something's happened.
So I was like, okay, buckle in.
And, uh,
(08:16):
he
told me.
You know, break down of what had happened.
My first thought was of just hopelessness,like all of the color drained down in
my face and I was just like, lift some
fucking shit.
And then I was like, okay,well it's already happened.
(08:41):
I can't change that, butwhat can I do moving forward?
And I was like, well,Loran's work is about this.
And I need to take what I've learnedand start having conversations because
that's what I do best is I talk.
(09:01):
So I did, I had it with my partner.
I had it with my relative and.
I don't see a lot of people every day.
So there is that problem, but Iwent through my books and I found
books that would educate me on howto talk more, um, about this with
(09:23):
confidence, but also, and also withcompassion, um, because I, I also.
Learn through books.
That's my, my school, mychurch, like, that's what I do.
So, so that's what I,that's what I've been doing.
It was more, I don't think I amallowing myself to understand the
(09:48):
amount of loss on a personal level.
Um,
I, I just, can't my heart, my heart.
Can't like, I can't, I, I, a partof it is that I don't want to shed
tears that aren't mine to shed.
(10:10):
Um, I th they don't need anotherWhite person crying over them.
They need.
Uh, specifically a White woman.
Um, they need me to get my shit togetherand start talking to other White people.
That's how you save lives.
(10:31):
So,
Loran (10:33):
so that.
Yeah.
I also just want to hold space thatmight get that's how you save lives.
And also like the reason that we'resaving lives is because they are alive.
They are people.
Jenny (10:43):
Oh, for sure.
No, I, and I totallyunderstand that part of it.
I'm not saying that they're notpeople, otherwise I wouldn't care,
but I also, I can't think I wrotein my morning pages this morning
that I like can't think about.
Those people individually,because if I do it'll crush me,
(11:03):
like, I can't think about that.
I think about them as a collective andthere was something great lost, and
that's all I'm allowing myself to feelright now, because if I go any further,
I will be paralyzed by fear and I willand sorrow, and I won't do anything.
I can't think about how each ofthem was a person and had dreams and
(11:25):
worries, and what the last thing theywere thinking before they went to
the grocery store, which was like,maybe like, oh shit, my phone's dying.
Or there's a rock in my shoe.
Or like, who knows?
Just human things.
I can't, I can't allow myself togo there only because I know myself
and then I won't do anything.
(11:46):
So I donated.
With some money to somewhere that Ithought would actually help specifically
the families of the people who died.
And once I am working more this week,and once I get more money, I'm going
to donate to organizations that aregoing to help the wider community.
(12:06):
And I'm going to keep educatingand keep talking and keep
showing up to this podcast.
And I hope that it makes a
Loran (12:12):
difference.
I love that we're having differentexperiences out of best that are both.
Like moving us and propellingour like, make our positions of
advantage and privilege in the world.
And also just acknowledging, youknow, the, the limitations that
(12:34):
we, that we have as just humans.
How, yeah.
How we show up or can't show up.
Jenny (12:38):
I mean, you know, me normally I'm just a puddle with anything,
just a little puddle of tears.
And I don't think that that's wrong.
But what I noticed with myself isthat if I allow myself to go there,
at least initially, when somethinghappens then, or you don't move forward,
(13:00):
I don't find anything to hold on to.
And I just drown.
So I, I made an active choicenot to do that this time.
Loran (13:09):
Yeah.
Yeah, no, I understand that.
I think there's this, um, Rudy Giulianiquote that is coming to my mind.
Jenny (13:22):
Was it when he was in front of the.
Yeah,
Loran (13:28):
He's such a fucking mess.
Um, but like, I want to say likea decade ago, um, my dad was like,
you should read his autobiography.
And I was like, okay, why?
Whatever.
Like, and I was like looking forsomething to read and he's like hit
me at the right time with this recc.
And so he picked it up, like notreally thinking too much about.
(13:51):
He said, "you can miss a wedding,but you can't miss a funeral."
And that's just like his little, like alittle adage that he lives by or lived by.
I'm not sure if he still adheres toit, but I thought like, that's so
brilliant that like, when, when thingsare happy and things are joyful.
It's great to be invited.
It's great to be included, but when weare hurting, when we are like in our
(14:15):
deep hurts and harms, and we don't knowwhich way is up: to be in community,
like what that does for ourselvesand for each other, like, it's huge.
It's huge.
And so maybe, yeah, it's like thisbroken clock moment, but it's.
I keep thinking about, uh,tears and White women tiers.
(14:40):
And that seems to be thislike really intense through
line throughout, not intense.
It's just like thisconsistent through line.
It feels intense to me because like,I think about it a lot too, because
as this non-binary femme-y human.
Like I cry a lot.
I've been like crying during this episodewhile we're recording and thinking.
(15:01):
Like, where are these tears coming from?
What are they doing?
Like, what purpose do they serve?
And I think it is like, it really isconnected to this like broader concept
of humanity and they feel healing.
They don't feel weaponized or like,uh, controlling or manipulative,
but rather we lost lives.
(15:23):
We lost human life this weekendbecause someone didn't like
the color of their skin.
Yeah.
We collectively, and that is so fucked up.
And so I, I grieve for the future that wewon't know, like the moth man prophecy.
(15:46):
The butterfly
Jenny (15:46):
effect.
I was like, wait, the kids in thecornfield with the weird moth thing with
the bridge, that's a different thing.
Yeah.
The butterfly effect.
Yeah.
Like if one thing hadbeen different, right?
Like if he'd gotten stuck in a trafficjam or pulled over, or, you know,
Loran (16:08):
anything, anyone on the fucking livestream, where to have called in
I've been like, This shit is happening.
Yeah, it's probably very clear.
Um, at least right now, from whatI've read through the times and the
AP is that it was well known thatthis person had problems like, uh,
(16:30):
social, emotional, relational problems.
I mean, he allegedly threatenedto shoot up his school, like this
person wasn't running around,trying to be in good relations.
With his community, but the communityfor whatever happened or for whatever
reason there wasn't, uh, like, uh,a White elder or a friend or, um,
(16:55):
another White person in this spaceto collect what is happening or
Jenny (17:00):
maybe there was, but it was went the other way,
Loran (17:04):
radicalize them even more?
Uh, fuck Jenny, that one here, sidewaysand hired and weird because shame culture
is not about building relationships.
I mean, to get into the,like, what about isms of that?
Like, I could only imagine some persondeeply invested in White shame was
just unrelenting and wasn't thereto build a relationship or an in.
(17:28):
I saw a picture online.
Um, and his parents sitting arounda Christmas tree and I kept thinking
about the communication breakdownthat all of them were experiencing,
or like, what, not only like, how didyou fail him as a parent, but like,
how did we fail him as a community,as neighbors, as other White people?
(17:50):
And I feel like that's whereI, that's part of like where
my moral injury comes from.
It's like witnessing or experiencing,failing to prevent like this.
Deeply held at the core beliefthat all life has value and
that Black Lives Matter.
And this human said, Nope.
(18:10):
Um, so Ashtin Berry this post thatwas sent to me by, uh, that I was like
tagged in for The Spillway Ashtin rights.
"White people do not want to hearthis, but if you are not in community
with BIPOC people, you are mostdefinitely raising a racist child.
The questions is will they bepassive or actively racist?
(18:34):
And what level of harm will they commit?
And at what pace will their actionsescalate or plateau and raising
White children in community withBIPOC people, isn't a cure all by any
means, but intimacy requires humanity.
And that is a bare minimum.
And many of you will feel fear over beingidentified as racist, but not concerned
(18:58):
about what that means for you as ahuman, we spend so much time discussing
what trauma does to Black people.
Frankly, I know firsthand whatit does, what I continue to be
perplexed by is the lack of studiesand discussion about Whiteness.
If epigenetics is the study ofheritable phenotype, why is it?
(19:18):
We are not discussing White supremacy.
Culture's traumatic influence onWhite people through generations.
I'm not sure how any White person canhear about what happened in Buffalo
and not question what terroristslie among their own communities.
Unnoticed.
I'm going to lose followersover this, and I don't care.
How many excuses need to be made foryour family members to participate in
(19:39):
White supremacy culture at every level?
If you have people who vote foranti-abortion laws, they are
committed to White supremacy.
If they vote against gun laws,they're committed to White supremacy.
If they are pro-police, they'recommitted to White supremacy.
And just not sure how White people areasking Black people, if we are okay
(20:00):
as if this is one sided, are you okay?
Are you okay with being part of acommunity that keeps cresting terrorists?
It's not normal to have regularpolice killings and violence shootings
of citizens, and it's not normal."
And it to me, like going back tolike, as this was like first heading
me, it was, oh my God, this isbecoming more normalized because of
(20:23):
what just happened in New York city.
Just a few weeks back.
I don't know how to like,do this episode at all.
What is
Jenny (20:30):
your, so what's your goal with this episode?
Loran (20:34):
That's a gret question.
What should our goal be?
Like if we, okay.
Yeah, let's create, let's try to createsome kind of like forward moving space
for White people on this because wecan't become paralyzed by this or frozen.
Uh, and so we continue to do the podcast.
We continue to do this work.
(20:56):
We continue on with The Spillway andhaving these conversations publicly, but
then like, what are we asking of Whitepeople in this moment as White people.
Like
Jenny (21:09):
if you're, if you are feeling any of the things that we're feeling
or you're related, you're relatingto them or feel strongly about
this and don't know where to go.
That's why The Spillway is here.
Reach out email.
Uh, reach out to The Spillwayon Instagram or Facebook.
(21:30):
We can have these conversations togetheras a community, and it can be a place
where we can unpack stuff and have agentle hand to help us move forward.
If we're not sure where to go,
Loran (21:46):
I'm not also licensed as an individual practitioner.
Uh, and so I can onlyhelp people like so much.
Uh, by my own professional capacity, butalso like legally, I think that that to
me is where The Spillway spaces are soimportant because I'm only one person
and two people can be in relationship.
(22:07):
Three people are in community.
And so The Spillway, which is anentirely free resource is a space
for White people to get together,to talk about our White feelings.
And to talk about White action todismantle White supremacy from the inside.
So where
Jenny (22:24):
do they do that then?
Like if The Spillway, is that the more,how do they, how do they access that?
Oh
Loran (22:33):
Instagram like Facebook, like, I mean, we're posting every single day.
A majority of my work thusfar has been people DM'ing me.
Gotcha.
And I do have individual conversationswith people, but I am like no
capacity have been asked, uh, tolike hold individual therapy space
for people or to be like, Hey,like, let's jump on this thing.
(22:54):
And like, let's unpack this, but rather.
Someone will share a post with me andbe like, oh, this is really frustrating.
Or, oh, I saw this and it made me thinkof like The Spillway's work, or whoa,
can you believe that this is happening?
And we'll have like a back andforth and I'll hold space for them
and hold space for their feelingsand their like, experience around
whatever's happening for them.
(23:16):
But to create like a consistentspace, it has also this like
larger invitation to invite yourWhite friends to the space too.
Um, because they think in much thesame way, Jenny, like you've said, like
you've used The Spillway to talk withyour partner to talk with your relative.
Um, sometimes you don't know thatthey need to talk too, or they
(23:36):
don't know that they have theaccess to that conversation too.
And so like having multiple peopleseeing the same prompt and then
sharing it, and then suddenly you'rein each other's DM's, just off of the,
like the stowaway prompt for that.
Going, oh my God.
I completely disagree with us.
What are you thinking?
Or this is the dumbestthing I've ever heard.
(23:56):
I don't understand.
And then you can talk it out in yourDM's together, but at least The Spillway
created a prompt for you to have thatconversation with another White person.
Uh, one of the other things that Iwould highly recommend, um, because
our work is so communal and because ourwork is about relationships and it is
relational, send a friendship requeststo everyone that you have unfriended
(24:18):
them because of their racist views,like White person to White person.
And I know that that one's reallyhard and that one can be really.
But we have, I think gone back into theseecho chambers that feel really safe.
And we started to create safe spaceswhen we really wanted a healing space,
because we instinctually knew thatWhite supremacy impacted us too, as
(24:39):
White people, but our privilege turnedinto saviorism and we just like swooped
in and said, oh no, no, no, yourpain is my pain rather than, oh wow.
I have my own fucking pain too.
Yeah.
I'm having more conversations with people.
Like that's I thinkanother immediate, like do.
What are the other things I'mthinking about is around action.
Is there an action.
(24:59):
Policies and laws are our value statementsas a culture and yeah, well, there's
this whole conversation about gun rightsand second amendment claims that will I
get can and should have its own episode.
I, I think it's safe to brieflymention policy around critical
race theory because we've alreadyhad this conversation with Dr.
Amy Hillier.
Um, like CRT is still being debated as weround out the end of the first school year
(25:25):
with this like newly elected school board,um, configuration across the states.
And so it's important to check in, to seehow policies around race and racism in our
education systems have, if at all changedand how we can like safeguard attempts to
create colorblind, culturally irrelevantracially illiterate education for, uh,
(25:46):
our children and within public schools.
And sometimes like, not evenwithin public schools, but just
like education, more broadly.
Jenny, what else are you thinking?
Jenny (25:57):
As a, as a organization, we need a, like you said, a strong community, but
one of the main problems is that Whitepeople don't have that sense of community
or if they do, they don't want it to be.
They want it to be alignedwith people of Color directly.
Loran (26:23):
Right.
And ask people of Colorto make White culture,
right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And to me, um, community and culturebuilding, uh, one of the things that I
just like learned through my educationis that it it's, it takes time.
I am in the clinical sense, Iam doing a community assessment
(26:45):
currently talking with as many Whitepeople as possible and trying to
figure out what White people need.
Jenny (26:50):
So it's like research.
Loran (26:51):
That's all that this podcast is to me is research.
And I think that that's where we've hita couple of snafoos and that like in
the very first episode of the show, Wetalk about the, "do see hear" model of
education, uh, the people need to seewhat's going on hear, what's happening.
(27:12):
And then we can like create into action.
But those first two stepsare incredibly important.
And that's what we're doing right here.
We don't know what the do is yet.
And these snafoos kind of havehappened as people approach the
podcast out of context, becausethey're completely missing.
Um, the foundational understandingthat this podcast is about research.
(27:32):
It's about trying to figure out the seeingand the hearings that we can translate
this all into a do into an action.
I have like, period, like I'vesprinkled, it you'll find like
throughout a few of the episodes.
And I'm like, we're talking about research
you?
Um, you Julia child research,
(27:53):
but we didn't start that way.
Um, rather than like, Hey, come alongon this journey, we're trying to build
White culture and to do White culture.
Part of that does requires research.
Jenny (28:04):
Understand.
Loran (28:07):
Um, how are you feeling about this conversation?
I feel like we've got like a lot forlike a good 20 maybe 30 minute episode.
Yeah.
I think it's going tobe hell to edit for you
though.
So this one I'll be up tomorrow.
I would rather, uh, stop and likeacknowledge this moment and try to
like organize and also grieve and likeit's, again that like duality be like
(28:30):
really fucking sad and frustrated.
Gutted and, uh, not stop and keepworking because this is huge fucking
reminder of to why we do this work.
Here's to Aaron Salter, RuthWhitfield, Pearly Young, Katherine
(28:52):
Massey, Deacon Heyward Patterson,Celestine Chaney, Roberta Drury.
Margus Morrison.
Andre MackNeil, Geraldine Talley.
We wish we knew your names andlives under different circumstances.
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