Season One: Key Findings

Episode Transcript
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Jill Nagle (00:00):
I had a personal turning point in 2015, shortly after Dylan
roof had killed a room full of Blackchurch goers in their Bible study group.
And I was looking at a picture of himand he had that same sort of glazed over

(00:20):
dissociated dysregulated look that myautistic son would get in his eyes just
before he had yet another violent tantrum.
He's now a lot better.
Um, but I had this moment where this, thisknowing just kind of suffused my body,
which was, I am not separate from him.

(00:41):
The same system thatcreated him also created me.
We are part of the same.
Collective White psyche.
And right around this time, I noticedthat the White people around me
were doing and saying things prettymuch exactly the opposite of that.
Calling him a monster callingfor him to be locked up forever.

(01:03):
No.
And I thought, oh, wait a second.
You know, from this sense of connection,I started to, um, formulate the idea
for these White on White workshops,how to talk to the other White people.
And I brought my sematic body-oriented,um, counseling skills and help people
slow down their reactions to what,like what happens in our bodies

(01:28):
when we monster Ify, if you will.
And even if you want anotherWhite person, oh my God, what's
actually happening within us.
How do we slow that down and be withit and consider, just consider the
possibility of engaging them as anotherhuman being as if we were members of the
same family and in some profound way,we are all members of the same family.

(01:55):
We would draw them in just likewhen my son was having a tantrum,
I wasn't going to monster by him.
I wanted to draw him inand say, what's going on?
How did this happen?
How do we make you feel more comfortableand safe so that you do this?
And as White people, I think that'swhere, you know, some things that

(02:17):
Lynn and Jared have mentioned aboutdoing the work within ourselves.
How do we expand our capacity for beingwith the hard feelings that come up when
we see other White people doing violentand harmful, sometimes fatal things.

Loran (02:33):
I love what Jill is saying here in episode six.
And I think it kind of speaks for itself.
So I just want to like, stop andappreciate you and just like acknowledge
that I'm loving this conversation.
I don't love you because thisconversation's going so well.
I love you, period.
But also like I've beenjoining this conversation now.

(02:54):
I know, because we've done somuch fucking work on this thing.
And so to like sit at it and reflectand share, and like, even when you're
like, oh, a Bandalan says that too.
I was like, did she just used her time?
Like, oh fuck.
Yeah.
Like there's just so much beautythat we fucking trudged through

(03:16):
to get to this final episode.
And then Jill's over here talkingabout our interconnectedness and our
shared humanity that I'm just like,I got a lot of love on the heart.

Jenny (03:28):
Uh, I have a lot-, a lot of love in my heart for you.
I mean, this whole process hasbeen painful and wonderful.

Loran (03:39):
Yeah, that's the best way to describe it as painful and wonderful.
Well,

Jenny (03:42):
and I didn't even really have to do much.
I just had to just up and I wouldstill, like the night before we
were going to record, I was like,

Loran (03:55):
that's beautiful.
Um, which I think this is actuallya really lovely segue into, uh,
I'm so excited to report out toyou on data from our conversations.
Um, and so we have had on the podcast,I want to make sure that I get this

(04:16):
number, correct, 116,014 words of that.
We say White or a weightness, 1,017 times.
Wow.
We ask at a minimum 816 questions.

(04:42):
Um, we say racism 214 times community,146 times men, 143 culture, 1 28 people of
Color, 118 Black, 107 women, 81, fuck 78.

(05:03):
That sounds right.
I also don't think we said shit awhole lot, but we say 44 times shit.
I feel like isn't the mostlike impactful curse word.
But when you use strategically, itcan be, um, preciousness dirty too.
I mean, that makes sense.

(05:23):
And then tears 13, like I thought wetalked, we talked about tears, like White
women tears a lot more than we actually.
Oh,

Jenny (05:34):
yeah.
That's one of the thingsthat I have on here.
It's like the themes that keep showing up.

Loran (05:40):
Yeah.
So just by the numbers, is thereany word or phrase or it has, yeah,
it has to be a very specific wordor phrase that I could look up.

Jenny (05:51):
Alamo.
Just curious.
Six that's all.
Sorry.
Yes.
Um, but in all seriousness, um, harm

Loran (06:11):
77, that's

Jenny (06:13):
it

Loran (06:14):
dang.
Right.
I feel like that's where I was like, oh, Ifeel like we talked about this a lot more.
And so when I was like coming up with mythemes, I was like, well, maybe we didn't
actually talk about this a whole lot.
And the data says somethingdifferent about we, we.
1089.

(06:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's really good.
I mean, let's try us 134,which is more than culture.
What's

Jenny (06:47):
culture.
1 28.
Oh yeah.
That's right.

Loran (06:52):
When I was little and this is what I thought, the first thing
that you would, this is somethingthat I thought you had access to.
And the afterlife was how manytimes you did our set something.
No way.
Yeah.
I really wanted there to be like adatabase that you could go through of the
life that you had and be like, oh my God.
I said, I love you.
X times I watered the plants X amountof times, I masturbate at X amount

(07:15):
of times and just be like, oh wow.
These are my, these are my stats.
Oh

Jenny (07:21):
only you.
Well, maybe not only, but definitelyyou would be like, baby Loran would
be like, I need a spreadsheet of all.
When I get to get to heaven, I needa spreadsheet of all the things.
Thank you.

Loran (07:40):
Pearly gates.
Where's the database.
Which, which way do I go?

Jenny (07:44):
Do we have an Excel spreadsheet?
You would probably bring your own

Loran (07:51):
if you could.
Well, I guess that's the thing.
If you could bring anything across theriver sticks, what would you bring?
Seltzer?
Here's my cold one.

Jenny (08:06):
Yep.
Just never ending supply of new cells orcause I only liked those first two goals.

Loran (08:34):
welcome to the final episode of season one of The Spillway podcast,
where we try to refocus our lens onwhat it means to be White in the U
S today without supremacy or shame.
Jenny and I have come up withlists of our biggest takeaways,
incredible moments of learning andhighs and lows of this first season.
So this should go without saying,but if you haven't listened to

(08:57):
season one, a whole lot of thisis not going to make sense.
And without further ado,let's just jump right on it.
okay.
Um, yeah, let's just startwith the biggest impact.
Let's uh, so three, I'll do three firstsince I have, I have three of them.
You have two.
Okay.

(09:18):
Um, so the first one I have,it's like a penumbra of clips
and it's about the interconnect.
You just say the penumbra,it's a pin number of clips.

Jenny (09:28):
What is

Loran (09:30):
penumbra?
I love the numbers.
So it's when multiple things kindof overlay themselves, they're
all very different and distinct.
But once you see this overlay andyou like, look through them, it
makes its whole own entire thing.

Jenny (09:48):
So like the thing I think of like a power point or something, no.
Okay.

Loran (09:55):
It is, yeah.
It's like a thing that exists, butdoesn't exist in the actual electric.
But like the feeling, thegist of it kind of does.
And so I think you'll understandas soon as they say, and it is
the interconnectedness of artwork.
And like, when I started The Spillway,I, it was kind of around this, like,

(10:16):
don't you want to stop fucking hurtingyourself and hurting other people?
Like, is your life really that goodwhen you talk about race and racism?
Because I kept seeing people like, likecringe and recoil from conversations
of race and racism and like that to me,like registered as this trauma response.
And it was like, oh, like that, doesn'tlike, I think even Lynn Burnett says
and the White to the round table, Yeah.

(10:39):
Lynn says in the episode, you know, ifyou're a White person and you're wrestling
with experiences of guilt or shame orfeeling embarrassed or being worried that
you're racist or being worried that peoplewill perceive you as racist, or if you're
feeling defensive, um, or if you have fearand anxiety around Black and Brown people,

(11:00):
or if you're turning on Fox news andyou're feeling, you know, a fear reaction
to the narratives, they're like, noneof that is a positive life experience.
You know, like all of that is takingaway from you having a beautiful life.
Like that's not a good quality of life.
Right.
And that's why I started thespelling of like, no, like let's
increase your quality of life.

(11:21):
And then I think, uh, like through,beyond White supremacy and then the
focus group with the men and itsimpact on GLBT folks and women, like
my healing is tied up in your healing.
My wellbeing is tied up in your wellbeing.
And it reminds me of the, uh, the MartinLuther king quote of, I cannot be fully

(11:44):
who I am supposed to be if you werenot fully who you were supposed to be.
Uh, and so that was like never reallyexplicitly sad throughout the piece.
But I feel like there was a coupleof times throughout the series
where it felt like, yeah, there's,there's this really like beautiful
interconnectedness to our world and toour work within the, uh, the combined

(12:05):
destiny, our shared fabric mutuality.
But Martin Luther king talksabout that's my number three.
Okay.
What

Jenny (12:13):
clip was that?
Oh, was it the Lin one?

Loran (12:16):
Um, so the clips, so it is, um, Fred and Pablo
talk about interconnectednessand beyond White supremacy.

Pablo Cerdera (12:27):
Um, of the importance of shared stake in harms, um, and recognizing
that we have obligations to be ingood relation with each other, right.
Um, to care for ourselvesand our collective community.
So it's very much tied up for me in thiskind of concept of collective liberation.
You know, this off quoted idea that,that Loran brought forward that
Fred talked about, but none of usare free until all of us are free.

(12:48):
Right?
And that, that our liberation, as,as White men is directly tied into
the liberation of women, of, ofBlack folks, of indigenous people,
of people, of Color and, and allsorts of other, uh, subjugated,
uh, othered or minoritized groups.
to say that we as White men arenot impacted by racism or sexism or

(13:10):
these other systems that power isI think, a total misrepresentation.
Right.

Loran (13:16):
Um, and then the focus group with men, uh, to see them talk about.
It's interconnectedness and race andthen interconnectedness and gender.
Sure.
And I think that that's what really likebrought it home for me was the beyond
White supremacy and the focus groups.
There were, you know, Whitemen talking about racism.
And then there were White mentalking about gender and to see

(13:40):
both of those times the impact thatit has on people of Color and then
on women and gender nonconforming,non binary, transgender folks.
That, to me, it was the like, oh, here'sthis thing that we're not talking about.
That's actually here in those two pieces.
Does that make sense?
Yes,

Jenny (13:56):
it sure does.
Okay.
I was just trying to like, not visually,cause you don't see anybody cause it's
a podcast, but like in my head, thinkof like examples though, overlay Palumbo
era or whatever you open them, bruh.

Loran (14:15):
All right.
What was your number two?

Jenny (14:17):
My number two was.
Um, in the men's focusgroup when teach said,

Teej (14:23):
and I'd say to all White people, that the only thing you're entitled to is
love.

Jenny (14:28):
So the reason why I think, and also our discussion about it tied
into that where you said your view

Loran (14:39):
was, I just need to say this around the, the only thing you're entitled to
is love, because I feel like this was areally important Eureka moment for me.
When I hear that there is part ofme, this really, uh, unfortunate
shaming part of me, this is my shameculture talking that says a White

(15:02):
man is entitled one of course, huh.
But then to, to love is skeevy.
It sounds rapey.
Um, And it sounds manipulative.
I don't know.
I am entitled to your lab.
I'm entitled to your body.

(15:23):
And however I'm defining love.
And it has taken me like a couple ofweeks of like listening and sitting
with this, this episode specificallyto like really set in acknowledging
my like roots and shame culture andhow deeply embedded I was in that and

(15:45):
how it wasn't until there was a momentlike this, where someone who, and we've
talked about this multiple times, howthis person basically just repeats Fred
jealous, but I couldn't hear it from him.
I couldn't hear it from teach, but I couldhear it from, from Fred and just the work
that I need to do unpacking my fucking

Jenny (16:08):
shame.
My feeling was, you know, like,oh, how you know how hopefully.
You know that a straightWhite man is, is saying this.
And I think that highlighted for me howdifferently we hear the same words, not
you, you and I specifically, but anyone.
Right.

(16:28):
And how much of that is impactinghow people approach the work
specifically White people?
Um, because we can say.
Anything, and two people in the roomwill hear them completely differently.
Right.

(16:48):
And also there's the difference on howyou, you are saying something and your
context and your lens through whichyou are saying, these things, they,
they're not gonna know that the peoplewho are listening to you or reading
whatever you're writing necessarily.
Right.
So that has made me very mindful ofwhat I read and consume and say to

(17:15):
folks around race and racism, whichis humbling, you know, like I don't
know where people are coming from.
Yeah.
Um, so when I'm talking, when I hearsomebody say something racist, I,
I step into the conversation withmore compassion, which is, which

(17:40):
is not what I would've done before.
I would've just been like, ohmy gosh, that person is racist.
Fuck off.
You know, but now, you know, Igently, I gently probe I'm like,
oh, what makes you feel that way?
Or, um, what do you mean?
You know, just trying to openup more of a conversation.

(18:02):
Sometimes it works and sometimesit doesn't, but I think
that's what that did to me.

Loran (18:08):
It's interesting because my number two is also shame and that's not also
shame, but it's like sh it's about shame.
And I think, because for me inthat moment, it was shame culture.
Speaking of shame on you, White man,you're not entitled to anything.
Right.
That's what you said.

Jenny (18:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Loran (18:25):
Um, and having to, it's interesting that you bring up that clip.
I wasn't thinking about that clipas much as I was thinking about and
talking about shame and social justiceas being this intercultural kind
of legacy that we leave for each.

Trystan Reese (18:41):
Oh, I've thought about this a lot.
And it's because it's because ofpower for so many years, perhaps all
of our modern existence, the onlysocial political power that queer
people have had is the power to shame.
That's it?
We weren't elected officialswho weren't teachers.
In many cases, we weren'tparents, we weren't bosses.

(19:04):
We didn't have the abilityto hire and fire people.
We didn't have the ability to shutdown businesses or to regulate.
Our only power was to make peoplefeel like crap in the hopes that
they would feel bad enough thatthey would stop doing harmful
things against the queer community.
It was our only tool.

(19:25):
And so we got really used to using it.
And I don't think that the queermovement has sufficiently evolved for
people to understand like, If you, ifwhatever, where they say, like, if all
you have is a hammer,everything looks like a nail.
People are acting like, all
they have is hammers.

Loran (19:39):
You don't like, um, and we've taken to fighting ourselves
rather than it places and policiesthat can be changed or be made.
Shame shows us our otherness, just wantingto be seen, heard, and respected, but
how collectivized that shame has becomewhen we as like leftist, liberal social

(19:59):
justice types project, that racism thathappens to POC onto ourselves and feel
like it's ours and that's not empathy.
That's a lack of boundariesor self regulation skills.
And then we experience thatas an emotional contagion and
it's really fucking unhealthy.
And that cycle turned into howhurt people can hurt people like
I was doing with fucking Teej.

(20:22):
Right.
Beautiful human.
I don't know.
You're entitled to love"fuck you, White man."
Yeah.

Jenny (20:27):
It's so easy though.
So fucking easy.
It's so easy.
And I, I just finished before westarted recording, listening to
the Evangeline episode cause Iwanted to get some stuff from it.
And one of the things that shesays in there is like, it's so
lazy to just canceled people.
It's so lazy to just belike, Angry and shut down.

Evangeline Weiss (20:53):
That's why cancel culture is so
easy
because it doesn't require anything of us.
It's just lose your
temper.
And like the only place that I'mdown with calling out is like, if
I'm standing in front of Capitol hill
holding a sign, like, yes,let's call, like we call out up.
Right.
It's like we punch up.
We don't punch down.
That's what's so intoxicating forso many people about cancel culture.

(21:16):
Is that it's lazy.
It's easy.
Right?
I can just block you.
I can just discard you.
I don't need to engage you.
I can walk away from those 53% ofWhite women who voted for Trump.
I don't need to try to figureout how to talk to them.
Right.
It's it's an incredible shift
to think.
Well, actually, how do I support?
How do I support people to makeanother step in their journey?

(21:40):
All right.

Loran (21:41):
Carlin Quinn talks about that.
And the, uh, she had, uh, Educationfor Racial equity and she said,
"whenever I feel comfortable.
I know that White supremacyhas a foot whenever I'm at
ease or things are easy for me.
I know that White supremacy is a foot."
I don't think that that's like a reallygood example of, oh yeah, this is so easy.

(22:04):
Like let's just fucking roll into it.
Don't even have to stand upjust fucking slide and do it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a huge impact on me becauseit has reminded me how fucking, yeah.
Some names lazy that I am intellectually,

Jenny (22:21):
emotionally.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Because also being alive asks a lotof us, just everyone in general.
So, and you can't possibly emotionallyshow up for everything in life
there's you wouldn't, you can't.
So, so being intentional aboutshowing up for this work.

(22:48):
Takes effort.
And, and then also just being,being present for it is work also.
So, so it's easier just to like, youknow, shut people down because then
you don't have to do any work yourself.

Loran (23:02):
Okay.
I've never even thought aboutit that way, but that's exactly
why the shutdown happens.

Jenny (23:06):
Yeah.
Cause you're like, oh, okay.
I hate you.
You're awful.
Or, Hey everyone, lookat this awful person.
Okay.
By

Loran (23:13):
holding multitudes, I have a feeling we're both going to say
the same thing for number one.
If there's one word that youcould say, say it in 3, 2, 1

Loran and Jenny (23:24):
preciousness.

Fred Jealous (23:28):
I think I would ask them a question.
I would just ask them, can you access thetruth of your own preciousness and that's
the starting place for the discussion.
Can you access that?
And if you can access that,that place, can you stay there?

(23:53):
And you use it as a starting place to,from which to connect to all of life?
And from which, and from whichto take a look at where you put
your attention with other humans?

Loran (24:12):
I'm so shocked.
It's amazing.
No,

Jenny (24:16):
it's like changed how I operate in the world.
Why?
Because when people are being shitty orI'm being steady or things feel shitty,
and it's just like, I don't want todeal with anyone, including myself.
It reminds me that I have to, and it'snot at first, I was like, oh, I can

(24:37):
just feel that everyone's precious.
There's that laziness.
Right.
But it actually call it calls you to.
To be active about it.
Like at my favorite coffee shop,there was a human wearing these
shorts that had the American flagmade out of a K assault rifles.

Loran (25:00):
Oh, interesting.
Okay.

Jenny (25:02):
And he was standing next to an elementary school kid who was probably
around the same age as the Uvalde.
This was after the shooting, um, there,and, and I looked at the parent of the
kid, I'm assuming it was the parent.

(25:22):
I don't know for sure.
But the, the adult that was with thechild and we like had this moment
where we looked at each other andspoke to each other through our
eyes, because we were both lookingat the shorts at the same time.
And then we looked at each other and.
I was so angry at first.
And I was like, well, fuck that guy.

(25:44):
And then I was like, I rememberedpreciousness in my hand.
And I was like, wow, somebody feels sounsafe in their skin and their environment
that they have to put on clothing thatspeaks to potential violence to go to the

(26:05):
coffee shop in their neighborhood on awhatever day it was, it was like a Friday.
And that person's inability to feelsafe, clothing themselves in violence.
It doesn't just affect them.
It affects everybody.
And especially, you know, this childwho probably didn't register the shirts

(26:30):
as much as we did, but maybe I haveno idea, but that human, the adult
that was with the child was so aware.
You know what I mean?
So it's like, this guy probablythinks, I shouldn't say what he
probably thinks, but you know, that'smy shorts, my personal property.
I'm an American do whatI want type of deal.

(26:54):
Not thinking that like this parentor caretaker of this child is
experiencing anxiety or trauma.
Right.
Um, because of the shorts he's wearing.
So then I also was like,oh, they are also precious.

(27:14):
And it.
Fucked me up.
It's like, like crying over mymuffin, just like in this coffee shop.
Um, but yeah, that, that's how,that's how that has changed me.
Also, the remembrance that, that humanthat was wearing those assault rifles

(27:34):
shorts was once the age of that childand the children who died by died.
in Uvalde..

Loran (27:41):
Yeah.
I mean, I just want tosit in that for a minute.
It just feels like.
I'm holding what you're saying.
It's interesting because when you talkabout preciousness, you're thinking
about other people's preciousness.
And because I was so investedin shame culture, I didn't
think that my life had value.
And so I always centered the parts ofme that were marginalized because those

(28:05):
parts have social credit and socialpower and social justice, leftist spaces.
But like my full humanitydidn't mean anything.
It was, oh, no, no, no, no.
I'm going to make myself this twodimensional, queer and trans human.
Um, but that my life has valueand my life has meaning like my
full, complete complexity of it.

(28:25):
And not because of any identity that'sassociated with it, but just because
inherently we are all precious.
And I lost that.
Or perhaps they like never hadthat understanding or that kind
of connection to my own humanity.
And so that's why it was so easyfor me to take away other people's
humanity, because I was trying togain something from myself or trying

(28:49):
to like, Hey, if I take some of yoursaway, maybe I can add it into my bucket.
Um, and yeah, this like, um, reallylimited understanding of power.
The power is not infinite poweris this, this scarce resource that
I have to extract from you andthat's takes away my preciousness.

(29:10):
What do you think in,

Jenny (29:11):
I'm just sitting with that for a minute because we've
known each other for a long time.
So I can see that, you know, if youhadn't have said that, I don't think
I would have associated, um, Past youwith with that and how that plays out.

(29:32):
But that, it just makes me reallysad because we don't, life is very
short and we've spent where, you know,mid thirties, so spent a lot of our
lives, maybe all of our lives, notbeing connected with our preciousness.

(29:53):
But I think when we're both, when we wereborn, that was there, you know, that was
something like, I don't know how muchbabies know, but I think the feeling of.
Being alive and in the world.

(30:14):
And, and knowing that there arethings that will care for you
is something that babies have.
That's just my own view.
And then something happens alongthe way where we lose that.

Loran (30:28):
Yeah.
I mean, my theory is we start totalk because, and I genuinely believe
that, um, well, there's a couple ofquotes out in the universe that are,
you know, an infant is nothing but areflection of the parent before you talk.
It's literally, it's everythingthat the parent wants the kid to be.

(30:50):
Um, infants don't have a personality.
It is who their parents.
And how their parents interpret orexpress who the kiddos, but then as soon
as you start talking that fragments andthen, oh, wait, you're actually your own
person with your own hopes and dreamsand aspirations and wants and desires.

(31:11):
You're not me.
Oh shit.
And so there's like these yearswhere you build this, like,
oh, this is an extension of me.
This is an extension of my body.
And so of course you love.
And you're like, oh my God.
Now I can like, literallyhold and love myself.
And then this fuckingthing starts to talk.
And you're like, what?
Okay.
Who, and it's not you anymore.

(31:33):
And so that's where I think.
And as soon as we start talking, westart memory and we start development
and, uh, like developmentalcognition around our understandings
and environmental assessments.
Um, and that's the shitthat we start to remember.
And like Fred was saying,

no, I think underneath it all, we're built for love, you know,
as part of the fabric of life, Andyou know, that the, the disappointment
that our childhoods weren't aboutthat, that they were about a training.
us into a role is profound.
Hmm.

Loran (32:09):
We are so pissed that our childhoods weren't about love, but
our infancy probably was better.
And I think that that distinctionbetween infancy and childhood
is a pretty important marker.
You know,

Jenny (32:23):
we assume that babies are blank slates.
As people say like, oh, it's justa mushy mush of nothing, you know,
which is always what I assume.
I'm like, oh, very cute mushy creativecreature, but they're starting to find
that babies actually understand theworld better than we think they do.

(32:49):
So.
People do project themselvesonto babies because they think
that that's blank slate time.
And then when they start talking,it is very jarring because they're
like, oh wait, you have all ofthese things and you're not just
gonna do whatever I want you to do.

(33:09):
And like parenting, I think, Imean, I don't know, but I think
it's how you respond to that.
Like, do you get angry?
And I think that's the same withthis work, you know, learning
to not be reactive, but tobe curious and thoughtful.
Yeah.
I

Loran (33:28):
think that's really interesting for them on parenting too.

Jenny (33:33):
I've been thinking I'll, I mean, you know that I've been
thinking a lot about it, um, and it'ssort of seeped into other parts of.
My life, like, how am Iresponding to these things?
Why am I responding this way?
Who does that harm?
Who does that help?
You know?
And I think, yeah, responding out

Loran (33:54):
of curiosity,

Jenny (33:57):
which I don't regularly do.
Like I have to think about doing that.
Like, I'll get mad if somebody cutsme off and start cussing, and then
I'm like, well, what's going onin their life, but it takes, you
know, I have to make that switch.
And like we just spoke about I'm lazy.

Loran (34:15):
I mean, the more repetitions we do of anything the better we're
going to get at it's true practice.
Yeah.
All right.
So let's maybe do this next one as well.
In the reverse order.
3, 2, 1.

Jenny (34:26):
The three clips.

Loran (34:28):
What are the three clips that kept, what are the, what three clips
kept creeping into your consciousnesswhen you least expected them?

Jenny (34:36):
So, number three was
it's, like we say, at the beginning ofevery episode, you know, hurt people,
hurt people, and that's easy to turnaround to do when you're hurting.

Loran (34:50):
Also, I think I just want to like name that the tagline is hurt.
People can hurt people because theythink would have Angela is doing,
is trying to support people to moveinto the canned territory rather
than just like, oh, you're hurting.
So you're inevitably gonnahurt this other person.

Jenny (35:10):
Yeah.

Loran (35:12):
I think what you just did is like you show.
Exactly what, like the liberal leftmovement is like, oh no, you're
this woman, you will always be hurt.
Oh, you're White.
You'll always be racist.
Right.
That's like the, alwaysthe inevitability of your

Jenny (35:24):
experience.
Yeah.
And it's not like the echo, itdoesn't have to be that way.
It doesn't have to be that way.
And

Loran (35:30):
so like, I totally get what you said it because I sometimes
get tripped up with that tail.
Right.

Jenny (35:34):
Because yeah, I think I've also heard it so much without the
can, like just in the world, like,I've heard that phrase before,
but in my head it's always hurt.
People, hurt people, not hurt.
People can hurt people.

Loran (35:50):
Right.
It goes back to redemption.
It goes back into reformation.
Can you do, do humans havethe ability to change?
And that can, to me makesthe world of difference.
Yeah.

Jenny (36:02):
And that made me think about how I did assume that
all hurt people, hurt people.
Um, and that possibility.
Has followed me every daywhen I see something because.
Should always happens.
And I see shitty things and I think,okay, hurt people can hurt people,

(36:27):
but that doesn't have to be how Irespond to this, whatever it was.
So that one, that one,I think about a lot.

Loran (36:35):
My number three is it's actually in the bonus materials.
That's listed on a website.
It's the conversation thatEvangeline and I have.
Uh, about fuck the individual experience.

I actually,
I actually, I don't know.
Let's try this on Loran.
I don't give a shit aboutpeople's individual experience.
Like I don't think I am so over a Whitepeople's individual experience and
every little snowflake that exists.
That's where the term snowflake comes.
Right?
Think like I'm special and unique.
You need to understand myparticular perspective here.

(37:10):
And if I was going to just like,maybe it's cause it's 9:00 AM on
Friday and I've had a hell of a week.
But like my response, when yousay individual people is like,
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
I don't care about individual people.
I'm building a conversation thatis across the group, a group.
And the thing with White people
is we hate.

(37:32):
Our
group identity.
We hate it.
That's where the trauma is.
We are not at peace withthis group identity.
And the reason we're not atpeace with this group identity
is because it's meaningless.
It's both the, one of the most meaningfulsocial constructs in the country right
now because of structural racism.
But the reason that it's traumatizingis that it's meaningless.

(37:54):
It has no meaning.
Whiteness
has no meaning.

Loran (37:57):
And how Evangeline really tries to pull the micro work into a macro lens.
And it's like, when you're talkingto people, they're telling you
all of their cultural shit.
And so it's, it is, it's likeuniversalized within Whiteness thing
that's happening, but we are so hellbent on being these individuals and

(38:20):
individual freedom and individuality,which is like a huge, like cornerstone
of our American democracy and founding,uh, that we have taken it and just
obliterated the concept of community.
And I was, it actually remindedme of, um, did you watch the, the,

(38:45):
Alok on The Man Enough podcast?
Yeah.
Yes.

Jenny (38:49):
That I didn't watch the whole thing, but I watched
the clips on Instagram.

Loran (38:53):
There's this actually want to bring this into the two hour podcast here for
a second, just for educational purposes,because they feel like they're saying the
exact same thing and it reminds me againof the interconnectedness of our work.

Justin Baldoni (39:06):
And I read and I read your book and I understand gender pronouns.
And yet I still find myself sometimesfeeling nervous because I don't want to
mess up or, or hurts you or say the wrongthing, or feel like I'm, I'm taking away
from your identity by calling you a hero.
Um, and so I'm just wondering, doyou feel people be nervous that
they're going to say it wrong?

(39:27):
This is a, a 1 0 1 class forlisteners because I just, cause
I noticed I felt nervous and Ididn't want to make you feel bad.
And so I apologize if I did, Itried to correct it right away.
But for anybody who's listeningwho maybe has never been around a
gender nonconforming person, becausethere's way too many, uh, people that
haven't, um, what, I'm just curious.
So that's kind of where I wanted to start.

Alok Vaid-Menon (39:48):
Sure.
I guess I would say welcome to theawkward choreography of being a human
we're always going to mess up because we
are indoctrinated into a world.
That teaches us ideology,
not compassion.
So it's not
you speaking when you mis-gender me.
It's everyone that has spoken to you
before

(40:09):
and in my
life.
What?
I always try to remind people as
I was not born with genderliteracy, I was born hating
myself and hunting myself.

Loran (40:19):
I don't want to do the whole thing because people just need to go
over and listens last, watch that.
But it feels like they're sayingthe exact same fucking thing.
This isn't okay.
Sure.
Yeah.
You have individual experience.
I get that.
And you were taught everythingthat you're saying to me right now
was taught to you from someplace.

(40:41):
And so we miss that as White people.
And that's what like always keeps creepingup into my consciousness of, oh wow.
Someone taught you this.
Someone taught you to think, believe,or behave in this very specific way.
Yeah.
And so that's why when I, when I hearsomething that like really just feels like
nails on a chalkboard of all right, cool.

Jenny (41:03):
This is, this is,
um, my number two is from themen's focus group from Sam's,
vulnerable, vulnerable confessionof the sexual abuse slash violence.

(41:23):
And I think part of thatis that it scared me.
And part of that is that that livesin that capacity to be violent
and angry or so angry or violentor whatever is within everyone.

(41:44):
So how far away am I?
Like, where does mine lie?
Because I know it's in there.
And what keeps me from, fromprojecting that onto the actual people.
Um, so that, that one, thatone, it also makes me think

(42:06):
how well do you know people?
You can't just look at someone and know,and even if you've known someone for
years, like you and I have, we're alwaysone, we talk being like, oh, I didn't know
that, you know, whatever the case may be.
So, so that one, thatone, I think about a ton

Loran (42:28):
I love that there's this connection between your humanities and that too,
but like in such a, a very scary,violent place, it's so easy to go.
Oh yeah.
That's him.
He's having that experience,but also knowing, oh, wow.
I'm also capable of that.
Yeah.
And where do I lie on that?

Jenny (42:44):
And it reminds me.
Uh, in the never-ending story wherea tray has to look into the mirror,
um, before he goes through whatevergateway, and he's told that men see
their true selves in this mirror.

(43:08):
And a lot of it causes a lot of themto go crazy and kill themselves.
And a lot of people die.
So when he looks in the mirror, hesees whatever the other kid's name is.
Oh my God.
I don't remember.
Um, but the other kid who is actuallyreading Elliot or whatever his name

(43:29):
is, is reading the neverending story.
So Trey's living the neverendingstory and Elliot's reading it and.
I, I thought of that scene when I wasthinking about Sam confessing to this
thing that happened, and me standingacross from him, judging him and

(43:50):
being afraid, but then tying in Fred'spreciousness thing and being like,
oh, I'm just looking at myself, I'mlooking at a possible version of myself.
Um, so that's what I thought of

Loran (44:09):
this feels connected independent, but that if you I'm so
excited to go back and revisit thefocus groups in like a year, a couple
of years, and listen to us talk.
The focus group, as much as it istrying to understand these White
men's perspectives, it's such areflection of who we are and what we

(44:31):
were thinking about or what we weresaying or what we thought was important
to bring into the conversation.
And so as much as it is this likeanalysis and exploration of White men,
it's this huge analysis and explorationof us as humans and how we like receive
and interpret something like violenceor something as mundane as them
introducing themselves and us beinglike, oh my God, there's so inconsistent.

Jenny (44:54):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, that, that goes back to whenwe were talking about teaches, all
you're entitled to is love, you know,how we hear things, how we, how we
take in somebodies words or actions,

Loran (45:10):
which I feel that leads perfectly almost to my number two.
And that's when Fred wastalking about Rumi's quote.

Now, if you just keep welcoming, it's like Rumi's quote, you
know, uh, there's one quote from Rumiabout, um, welcome, welcome, welcome,
welcome you 10,000 times, if that'swhat it takes for you to come to the
world of love, something like that.
I'm paraphrasing.

Loran (45:34):
And as many times, as I've tried to look up this
Rumi quote, I cannot buy that.
Like Fred Fred changed.
It's not, but I just, I keepthinking of that whenever there is
like this quarter disconnect, whensomeone's like, oh fuck you Loran.
Or like, fuck The Spillway.
It's like, okay, that's fine.

(45:55):
I'm just going to keep welcoming you back.
Like at some point you're going tobe ready at some point, you're going
to be here and like, that's fine.
But like, I just have to keep likeholding space for you to know that
this is a space where you can be angryand that you're angry is valid here.
And then so many other places,your anger is not, uh, please
come back when you're ready.
And sometimes even when you'renot ready, but we're here.

(46:18):
Just come back.
Anyway.
Welcome.
Welcome, welcome.
And we're going to keep loving you.
That's me.
Number two.
Yeah, that just keeps fuckingcreeping in because so many people
like to project their shit to me

Jenny (46:30):
and The Spillway.
So

Loran (46:33):
welcome to the work of healing.

Jenny (46:36):
Yeah.
Um, so my, my number one is.

So love
is an important tool and it,it can't happen outside of
an accountability context.
I want both, right.
I want support, which is my word forlove, but y'all are calling love.
Like I want, I want support,but I also want accountability.
If all I'm getting is love andsupport, that's like sappy and
vapid and I don't really believe it.

(47:07):
And if all I get is chastisedand yanked on and told I'm doing
it wrong, then I'm only going tostick around for five minutes.
What we, what I would say is whatwe really need in our organizing
spaces is we need that balance of
support and accountability.
And that can only happen
in relationship.

Jenny (47:25):
Evangeline taught me that love can be support plus accountability.
That's just, I just don'teven know, like that's.
So much harder than hat justbeing like, I love you and then

(47:47):
never showing up for anything.
So like here's an example.
My, one of my best friends had here hada birthday party for her granddaughter.
And I was like, oh no, I don't want,I don't know anybody other than
my friend and her husband really,I'm going to be all by myself.

(48:13):
Now, this friend hasdriven me to the hospital.
This friend put together a COVID bridalshower for me when I got married.
Like this friend is, is legit.
And I thought of evangelism.
I was like, God damn itsupport plus accountability.

(48:37):
So I showed up, I went,it was uncomfortable.
And I was like, for half of it justsitting there by myself, like, like trying
to enter people's conversations, whatwas going on, but she felt, my friend
felt so loved that I just showed up.
Right.
You know, I was just there.

(48:57):
And that that's anexample, but that's what,

Loran (49:01):
and I love that your example is a difficult conversation that with
yourself, we constantly think about thisdialogue as this interpersonal thing,
rather than an intra-personal thing.
I love that example.
My number one justkeeps fucking creep and.
Sam, just like, as a human.

(49:23):
Sam's, humanity just keeps fuckingcreeping into my consciousness
when I'm not even expectingit, I could be doing nothing.
And all of a sudden here comes Sam

Sam (49:34):
it's it's that like, these people grew up, like spend their
lives, thinking that they were good.
And all of a sudden they weretold no, you're the problem.
And they were like, but I followedwhat I was supposed to do.
I, I was good to my family andI was good to my church and
did all these great things.
And now you're telling me that Ifucked up and Sam, Sam, forties

(49:58):
and fifties, I'm so old that like,I couldn't even fathom doing it
different, but I like my life is over.
And now my world has been turnedupside down, struggling to break
free of the cultural scripts thatwe place around straight White men.

Loran (50:16):
And I think of the, to me, I feel like the good ol' boys club, the
good old boys network turned into thisinescapable co-constructed prison.
And Sam just wants to be lovedand to love and to feel valued.
And so when I it's, it's so interesting.
I see Sam everywhere.

(50:39):
Wow.
Everywhere.
Whenever I see her, I see someone who'sasking to be loved and it reminds me
a lot of the, the Kazu Haga quote.
Uh, well actually I think Kazuwas quoting Marshall Rosenberg.
That violence is the tragicexpression of unmet needs.

(51:02):
Yeah.
And so then that just like it's yeah.
When I see violence and so.
While we've been recording this andthe world has turned more violent.
I think of Sam a lot.
And it's not that Samwould do this violence.
I don't want maybe I don't know.
Um, but that it is all fromthis desire to be loved and

(51:22):
seen and have their needs met.

Jenny (51:24):
Yep.
And Evangeline talks about that too.

And then we have to
invite discord, but that discordhas to be relationship relational.
I think we live in a veryconflict avoidant world.
We have, we have lots of examples ofconflicts going really badly, right.
Bombs dropping that's, you know,people losing their tempers,
being violent with one another.

(51:49):
Um, and then we have lots ofexamples of avoidance, right?
Like, mommy, why does thatman only have one leg?
Oh, shut up.
Don't talk about that.
Let's go.
Right.
So like, we don't want to talkabout the hard things or we
want to drop bombs on people.
It's like, these are theextremes that we're living in.
And if we want to be in a negotiatedspace where we're trying to figure
out what does justice mean, or whatdoes equity mean in this organization?

(52:13):
Or what does power look like?
Whatever the question on the table isthat negotiated space needs to be able
to tolerate a certain amount of discord.

Loran (52:23):
What was the hardest thing to learn?
Slash hold and why, as we're talkingabout the pain and the sludge and the
shit for me, it is the cancel culture isan extension of White supremacy culture.
And it reinforces White supremacyculture just by using the same tactics.
Not that it's trying to say that Whitepeople are more important, but that the

(52:45):
tactics which have rooted White supremacycancel culture, which is supposed to be
about liberation and justice and equityand diversity are using the exact same
tools that are shown to be divisive andto hurt people and to create conflict.

(53:07):
And so Audre Lorde's "the master's toolswill never dismantle the master's house."
It just makes me fucking wonder, like howand why I drank that juice for so long.
And it just like gives meso much empathy and love.
For the people who are still deeplyinvested in cancel culture, because I

(53:30):
know that they can come out of that.
I know that we can change.
I know that we can evolve, but like thehardest fucking thing is to know like, oh
God, the amount of damage that I have doneby perpetrating White supremacy in the
name of justice, in the name of diversity.

(53:50):
And that I was not that I was likefighting fire with fire, but like the
image that comes to my mind is thatlike I was trying to help drowning
people by adding more water, like Whitesupremacy is a fucking piece of shit.
Like everyone's justdrowning in White supremacy.
And I was like, here's some morewater get out, you know, like

(54:10):
it's not a ladder arms, likethrowing buckets of water in there.
Uh, and so, yeah, that's been really, it'sbeen hard to hold and hard to learn about
the ways that I have perpetrated harder.
And how I can, like still, if I'mlazy, I'm not thinking about it.

Jenny (54:36):
So mine's very similar, but not because I didn't come
to this work until The Spillway.
Let's be honest about that.
But so mine, mine was that I'm both aperpetrator and the victim of racism.
And as you were talking, I thoughtabout something you said to me, I said,

(55:01):
uh, I said something, it's not comingto mind what, what it was right now.
I don't know.
But I said something and you kind of,you were very kind and said, you know,
um, You shouldn't say that becauseof X, Y, and Z or whatever, not you

(55:21):
shouldn't, but you know, a lot of timeswhen people say that it's connected
to this, I can't remember what it was.

Loran (55:28):
Oh yeah.

Jenny (55:29):
It was.
Yes.
And I said, oh my gosh, I wouldn'teven have thought of that.
Cause I use, you know, the articulateto say someone is articulate.
I use that for everyone, you know?
Um, and you said exactly, like,if you didn't know, if you

(55:50):
don't know, you don't know.
Right.
And so that's.
It makes me think of, of you pouringwater into the drowning people's full
because if you don't know, you don't know.
Right.
And even evangelists and tells thatstory of when she first started doing

(56:10):
this work and she went, I know she wentin full of, you know, hell and brimstone
and everybody was like, no, thanks.
And then she went in with likehumility and vulnerability and
was like, here's what I've done.
That's not okay.
And, and she says that youhave to be able to fail.

(56:34):
So I think, because my thing was thatI'm, I'm a perpetrator when I don't do
anything when I stand by and allow shittystuff to happen without doing anything.
Cause I'm like, oh, it's not me.
So.
So, but, you know, having that compassionfor ourselves and the willingness to

(57:02):
see and move forward is I think bigand the fact that you were putting
anything in the pool, you know, youdidn't just walk away from the pool.
Sure.
You may, or you may, you know, turnon some water and some faces, but

(57:27):
you, you were there, you showed up.
Right.
And then when something differentpresented itself, you didn't
just keep doing what you had beendoing, because that was comfortable

Loran (57:38):
right now that you know, that, you know, are you going to change?

Jenny (57:41):
What are you going to do?
Right.
Yeah.
And sometimes, sorry, I keep going backto Evangeline and I think it's partly
because I just listened to that up.
That was like the, the one thatI was needed to listen to, to
remember something that she said.
So, um, but she said, youknow, you need to say you get
something on the 58th, try will.

(58:04):
You need to have failedthe 57 times before that.
Right?
You, you do stuff.
You fail, you learn, you do it again.
And you're like, damn it.
And then, you know, you keep going,

Loran (58:19):
failure is such an important part of our work.
It is such an important part of our work.
And to me, this connects to myhardest thing to hold them learn
is perfectionism being this tenantof White supremacist culture says
that you cannot make mistakes.

(58:40):
And so for us.
Massive majority of my life.
It has been about perfectionism.
And so if I can't be messy,if I can't make mistakes,
then I can't grow or change.
And I think when you apply thisto a social justice framework,
it is, well, when you makemistake, people are dying, right?

(59:03):
And so it becomes this very like elevatedhypervigilant stance around mistakes,
but then where are we supposed to,if I can do trial and error, right?
Where are we supposed to learnand grow and share and do?
Cause it's like, we're saying, like wehave to keep putting these reps in, in
order for us to be able to do this work.
And so we have to be able to dothese reps, these repetitions with

(59:28):
each other and cancel culture.
Doesn't allow that.

Jenny (59:33):
And the people who.
Are pointing and saying like, oh no, youknow, you screwed up whatever, you're,
you can't be a part of this work anymore.
Like, are they really doing anything?
Because if they were,they'd be screwing up too.

Loran (59:54):
Right.
Well, and I think thatthat's where this is.
If this is a hard thing for me to haveto learn too, is that not everyone
is invested in healing spaces.
It's true.
Uh, and so that's been reallyhard to hold them learn.

(01:00:16):
And so there, there are many, many,many White people who listen and
learn from, uh, BiPAP authors andintellects and scholars who are hurting
and then they turn around and thenthey use the hurt that is not ours.
And then they say, no, you don'thave space or time to heal.

(01:00:39):
Right.
As White people.
And that's part of thatis very legitimate.
And another part of that is,well then how do we change?
How do we grow?
And it's this incredible, both end.
But if you, Jenny could haveevery White person in the
United States here, one clip.

Jenny (01:00:59):
So it would be you stop at the beginning.
Well, it's not the very beginning, butat the intro to the men's focus group,

Loran (01:01:12):
I mean, I have come to love to these men
and I also wonder who they are as one ofthe participants says, "the more likely
we are to understand each other, theless likely we are to harm each other."
We can't fully understand each of thesefour men as individuals and 60 minutes.

(01:01:33):
Well, and also if you think, youknow, these literal men and who they
actually are in real life fuck off, theybravely agreed to talk with us so that
we can have this conversation today.
If you come for them, you're committingto setting the movement back.
If we can't make space for otherWhite people to be vulnerable
and show up in the work, we haveto meet people where they're at.

Jenny (01:01:58):
And the reason why that's powerful to me is because one of the
things that I think perpetuates racismand harm and patriarchy, and you
know, all that stuff, capitalism isthat we think we know who people are.

(01:02:20):
We think we know who peopleare and what people want.
When we do that, we get in troublebecause then people aren't human anymore.
They're an idea in our head or an object.
No.
Yeah, exactly.

Loran (01:02:40):
So I have four.
I fucked up.
I

Jenny (01:02:46):
know we've got to get started, then go.

Loran (01:02:48):
I wrote the rules.
I'm going to break the rules.
Um, one, everyone in the U Sjust needs to listen to the Fred
jealous episode from start to

Jenny (01:02:57):
finish.
That's the classic.
Well, and I didn't say that onebecause we've talked about that
one so much that I feel like it'sobvious, but yes, absolutely.
Yes.

Loran (01:03:06):
Um, and to me, it is also this like women and non binary folks are
so implicated in our shared fabric.
And so, yes, it's about White menand like buzzing beneath the surface.
Is this like huge gendered conversationthat a far extends beyond the masculinity.
Uh, second are the Chute Blocks theyare the most under listened to episodes.

(01:03:31):
Of the entire series and it bafflesme because this is the foundational
work of The Spillway visit.
Like stop trying to like,guess what The Spillway is.
There's literally these two 20 minuteepisodes that tell you exactly what
we're doing, why we're doing itand the data and research that goes
into the work that we're doing.

(01:03:51):
But they're the most underlistened to episodes.
And it just, yeah, because people likejump into an episode out of context.
I'm like, what the fuck is this?
Well, okay, we're a serial.
You didn't listen to the whole thing.

Jenny (01:04:05):
Relax.
Also, I think they don'thave a name attached to them.
Like I think a lot of people.
Maybe came and you cancorrect me if this is wrong.
Cause I don't know the data, but cameto the episodes because of a name or
a person or an organization that maybeposted it or was attached to it, I think.

(01:04:28):
And I think when people share stuff,they're like, oh, listen to me.
In this episode of the podcast, not listento this whole podcast and I am on episode
because that's, that's what anybodywho's promoting themselves would do.
Um, so I think that might be part of

Loran (01:04:44):
why.
Yeah.
Maybe.
Um, but then the actual literal clips,since I'm trying to answer the question,
like I was dead, it's a mashup.
It's just about the theme.
The idea of inconsistent.
And inconsistent ideology.
And so Pablo Cerdera's introductionon beyond White supremacy when

(01:05:05):
Pablo first starts talking.
And then Amy Hillier's piece oninterest convergence, uh, both
with like restorative practice andthen critical race theory and how
these are like these huge buzzwordsin liberal and leftist spaces.
But then we're so very often, likecherry picking, which parts of
restorative practice and criticalrace theory to actually engage and do.

(01:05:26):
But if we actually didthem, Pablo says, here

Pablo Cerdera (01:05:30):
we are.
As partial or total beneficiaries andas Loran and Fred talked about in the
spiritual and psychic harms that happenas a result of being perpetrators
or benefiting from armful systems.
So recognizing that we all haveneeds that require attention, um,

(01:05:51):
including those of us who cause orbenefit from harm, I think is a really
critical part of the restorativephilosophy and resonates really deeply
with, with what's been said so far.
Um, so if we're working on healing andwe're ignoring folks who are causing
harm, uh, we risk doing a lot moreharm, uh, in the, in the longterm.
Um, and I'll add also, uh, you know, Ithink that Loran, you talked about sort

(01:06:16):
of hatred within Whiteness and White folksdistancing themselves from each other.
Um, I think a lot ofthat also needs to do.
Trying to separate ourselves from theseharms distance ourselves from these
harms to set ourselves up as, as thegood White people or as blameless, or
as not implicated in these systems, um,through our critique and saying, and, and

(01:06:39):
through, uh, a diff identification withWhiteness, um, as opposed to thinking
about what our individual and collectiveharms needs and obligations, right?
As people who are implicated in thesestructures, in these systems and these
patterns, um, And I also will say to buildon Fred and then I'll wrap up for now.

(01:06:59):
It's um, this idea about thecentrality of community, um,
the importance of community,uh, I couldn't second it harder.
Um, I really do thinkthat we need practice.
We need support to be vulnerable with oneanother, especially as men, um, especially
as White men, who, as you said, are,are trained from youth to, uh, shy away

(01:07:22):
from vulnerability and deep connection.
And so a big part of what we do inrestorative work is try to create
containers where that vulnerability canbe accessed and where people can practice
being in closer realer, a more authenticrelationship with each other, which I
think has a huge role to play in healing.

Loran (01:07:39):
And then as Amy says here

Amy Hillier (01:07:40):
And histories, not personal motivations:
but if we look at sort of bigchanges, like the 1964 civil rights,
That this, this idea of interestconvergence is really helpful, right?
To power can power.
People do not give up power, right?
Like people have ways of protectingpower and they may look like
their concessions to civil rights.

(01:08:01):
Um, the, the, the call forde-centering Whiteness.
Um, I I'd like, I don't want myWhite students to take that as don't
say anything in class, like don'tspeak up or to a person of Color.
Um, what I wanted to, what I wantde-centering Whiteness to be as just
an awareness of how you, as a Whiteperson who may have been socialized,

(01:08:26):
you know, in, in spaces, privateinstitutions, you know, elite institutions
like Penn might make it easy for youto jump in and answer a question.
Where might somebody longer hasn't beensort of socialized in those spaces to
speak to, to just, to just be aware, like,am I speaking because I have something

(01:08:49):
really thought full to sane or am I
speaking because it's really comfortable
for me.
I feel really comfortable in thisclassroom, in the dead space.
I want to call it.
Um, I, you know, I don'twant White people to shut up.
Um, I, you know, I do think that listeningto folks of Color is, is a big part of it.
And, and, and, and, and reading thingswritten by people from different

(01:09:09):
perspectives is a big part of it.
Um, but I don't, I, yeah, I don'tknow if that's an answer to your
question about how you can cycle.
This idea of interest convergenceand de-centering Whiteness.
Um, I think it's more shining a lighton, you know, and Dubois talks about this
so WEB Dubois wrote "The Souls of BlackFolks", which most of us know brilliant

(01:09:31):
book about what it is to be Black, um,and to be considered less than, you
know, and everywhere that he turned.
But he also wrote "TheSouls of White Folks".
Um, and, and he, it's remarkablethat, you know, somebody who's
writing, writing so early.
So this early 20th century he's writingabout, like, we just acknowledge that

(01:09:53):
this is something that, that, thatit's not just about anti-Black racism,
um, that why does it, he didn't useWhite supremacy, um, but that, but that
people use their Whiteness all the time.
And I know that as part of myinstallation, as I walk over out
through an institution like Penn,

Loran (01:10:11):
then if we're actually engaging in things that we keep trying to hold.
Sure we could move mountains.
Um, did anything surpriseyou when making all of this,

Jenny (01:10:21):
how resistant I was?

Loran (01:10:24):
What were you resistant

Jenny (01:10:25):
to?
I was afraid of so afraid.
Um, I think, I mean, obviously there'sthe cancel culture thing, which you knew
about, but there was also that I wasafraid that I would have to uncover my
own racism and biases, which did happen.

(01:10:47):
Um, and then I would have tolike grow afraid of growing.

Loran (01:10:56):
Um,

Jenny (01:10:58):
and I did it anyway.
Right.
And actually what motivated me wasn'tthat I necessarily wanted to change.
How I operated to begin with thatwas, was because I love you so much.
So even though I was scaredand I didn't want to do it, I

(01:11:20):
showed up anyway, because of you.
And then that opened the door, mejust processing what we were learning.
And now I show up, I've shown up tospaces, both in-person and online
that I wouldn't have had, I hadI not been engaged in this work.

(01:11:45):
I've read books and watched thingsthat I wouldn't have if I, I would've,
you know, overlook them and been like,or been like, oh, that's not for me.
Or, you know, what kindof difference can I make?
You know, those kinds of, youknow, avoidant thoughts, um, and.

(01:12:07):
I realized that I really love people.
You know, if you had asked me beforethis, I'm like, oh, people are the
worst, which sometimes I still do say,but that's just because, you know,
they kind of are, but also I love themand I didn't want to do that either.
I was like, I love who I love,but everybody else get outta here.

(01:12:31):
Yeah.
So that's that surprise.
Those are, there's a lotin there, but that's what,

Loran (01:12:37):
um, just a little behind the scenes magic.
Um, folks don't know that we actuallyrecorded an episode, our very
first episode that we never aired.
We required a whole thing.
And then, uh, I think I even edited itand then you listened to it and you were
like, I, I don't want this out in the

Jenny (01:12:58):
universe.
Can't do it.
Yeah.
Cause I was such a weenie.
I wasn't ready.

Loran (01:13:05):
Yeah, well, but I think too, it was just like, it was this lesson
in vulnerability, I think for bothof us, like the ask that I had of
you, but also the ask that you hadof yourself, like there's, there was
a lot of pressure on your shoulders.
I think for someone who's neverdone this work, this isn't your
like your vocation or like your lineof work to be like, Hey, do this

(01:13:27):
thing, jump into it, be vulnerable.

Jenny (01:13:32):
But if you had an absurd on me in the pool, I wouldn't have done.

Loran (01:13:37):
I mean, if we keep using that metaphor, but also like, there was not
a lot of, there's a lot of water in thepool, but I wasn't actively putting water
into the pool, but rather to, no, you

Jenny (01:13:46):
weren't, you, you gave me a life best.
And then you were like, youdidn't throw water in my face.
You were just like, here's your life best?
And then you went, boop.
And I went and then how that went.

Loran (01:14:02):
Um, mine is boring and that it's only a repeat.
Um, but the thing that surprisedme was that cancel culture
is White supremacy culture.
Like I knew that White, that cancelculture was bad, but I could never
really like point my finger on it orlike figure out what the pulse of it was.
And I think of Angela and, andthen Tristan, just like doubling
down on it was like, oh God.

(01:14:24):
Yeah, that's what it is.
Yeah.
Like I think even in some of theearlier social media posts for this
boy kind of like hint towards it.
Uh, but to hear the articulationfrom of Angela and interest in
was like, oh, whoa, here it is.
Um, speaking of, is there anythingthat you wish you could do with.

(01:14:47):
I

Jenny (01:14:47):
wrote two words on my paper, the Alamo.
And you would think that Iwould have looked it up, did to

Loran (01:14:59):
look up the Alamo yet.
That's totally fine.

Jenny (01:15:04):
I just, I really listened to that.
And I was like, oh my God.
And we were talking about what my,my husband, that was so funny about
it was that you and I were actuallytalking about how people perceive people
from, um, the west, like Northeastfolks, see people from the west as
not having as good an education.

(01:15:25):
And then I'm like a cornerstoneof my, um, my history education.
I don't know what it is.

Loran (01:15:34):
No, that's fine.
I think it's fair.
I would also like charge any newEnglander to perfectly recite what
happened at the Alamo from memory.
Yeah.
Yeah, I am sure there'sgoing to be a few sure.
Exception to the rule, but a majority ofwe're all with you, we're all with you.

Jenny (01:15:52):
I know like my parents wouldn't be so mad at me though.

Loran (01:16:01):
Um, mine, if there was ever a do-over I, I love the do over question and
I hate the do-over question only on that.
Like, I wouldn't be sitting in thisplace of knowledge if I hadn't made
all of the mistakes that I had made.
And so I love mistakes and trying tolike encourage the messiness of growth
and learning and changing and knowledge.
Um, so one, if I could do this again,and this is definitely going to be

(01:16:24):
incorporated in this season, two isplanning with time allowing for time,
because I so deeply, deeply, deeply regretnot having a women's focus group energy.
It'd be focused.
And so much of that camedown to timing issues.

(01:16:47):
I'm like, no matter I startedtrying to find those focus
groups all around the same time.
Um, but for one, for personalreasons, the GNBT focus group, uh,
needed to just like, be put on pause.
And then second, uh, there,I was just like in the middle

(01:17:08):
of a cancellation campaign.
And so people were really nervousabout working with me or The Spillway
because I'm was in the process ofgetting canceled in this sad little
community, this hurting community.
Um, and so I just neededto plan for more time.

Jenny (01:17:29):
Also, it was your first venture, so you didn't really know
how long things were going to take,you know, and it felt very urgent.
Like we needed to get it done.
And also momentum is definitely importantwhen you're doing something like this.
So, so I get, I hear you.

(01:17:51):
I understand what you're saying.
And I think it is definitelysomething that'll make season two,
not only better, but also easier, noteasier, but like more livable, more

Loran (01:18:01):
on the football.
Yeah.
I don't think I should beproducing, writing and directing
and editing the episodes theweek or two before they come out.
But rather like a month ortwo before they come out.

Jenny (01:18:14):
Yeah.
And also.
You're doing it all by yourself right now.
Yeah.
So I feel like in between the timeof now and season two, once you know,
you're going to do some stuff whilewe're away and then hope maybe you'll
have somebody who can help you withthat kind of stuff, which I can't do

(01:18:37):
because I don't know anything about it.
And B I've got a kind of business

Loran (01:18:45):
coming into like our last three major questions here.
What's your biggesttakeaway from the series?
Mine is that community has to happen.
Community just has to happen.
That's the biggest takeaway.
And I remember starting TheSpillway social media channels,
and there was a friend of a friend.

(01:19:07):
Talk to a friend about The Spillwaysuper complicated, because no one would
talk to me about what was going on.
I would see all of these people likelooking at, uh, The Spillways posts,
because I think that that was theother shit with starting The Spillway.
As you can see, who's lookingat your shit and not because
you have this business account.

(01:19:28):
Um, and so it's the obviouspeople looking at it and
engaging in it behind the scenes.
And so I was like, what's going onon this friend of a friend said, oh,
it's because we don't have an ask yet.
We don't know what to do.
So I was like, oh, we actuallyhave to like do something.
We have to like mobilize it, do something.
And then through this communityassessment, it's like, oh no,
actually I was already doingwhat we needed to be doing.

(01:19:51):
And that was trying to build community.
But people wanted this like more andpeople need, yeah, people do need this,
like really tangible, oh, I need thislike 10 point list about what we need
to do so that I can like mark these off.
But rather it's Hey friend, allof the people that you unfriended
because they're racist, maybe numberone, they need to do number two.

(01:20:15):
Um, check in with each other'shumanity, three, be empathetic,
compassionate patient, understandingpatient, all these things.
Um, and that list is so much harder.
That was just so much harder.
Um, because it's about buildingrelationships and the, um, the relational
aspects that forge our work forward.

Jenny (01:20:39):
Great.
And they're never done, likeyou can't check them off really

Loran (01:20:43):
well.
I think that they are in that theycan be and should be only, well, like
community can get larger and bigger.
But one of the things that I like topush back against within, uh, like social
justice spaces is this idea that ourwork has never thought because then like,
what the fuck are we fighting for sure.

(01:21:06):
Sure.
Like, there's never this time whereyou can like, take a breath or
like be at ease, just being human.
Right.
That's like, actually there are someplaces these like milestones that we
have to like co-create and co identifyto say, okay, this feels better.
We can take like a breath.

Jenny (01:21:22):
Oh, sure.
I mean, like there's always going to besomething in our lifetimes, for sure.
Yeah.
Like we're planting seeds.
And I think we talked about this episode,somebody about planting seeds for
trees that you're never going to see.
Um, I don't know who said, that's notsomething I came up with that was a quote

(01:21:43):
from somebody, but I don't know who it is.
Um, but I think, yeah,so, so not that we're not.
Well, there's not an end goal, butthat we're always going to come
up with more ways to make thingsbetter because that's what humans.

Loran (01:22:00):
Right.
And I think for me, itis, I really like that.
See it, and treat metaphor.
Because as soon as you plant thetree, you still have to water it.
You still have to tend to it, but youdon't have to be like hypervigilant and
focused on it in a way that's only goingto be detrimental to the tree survival.
Because if you over-water somethingit's going to fucking back, it's

Jenny (01:22:17):
going to die.
Also.
You don't have to be theonly one watering the tree.
Like you can plant the tree andlike bring somebody over and like
show them how to care for the tree.
And then you can move on to plantanother seed somewhere else.
If that's your thing, or you can stickwith that seed and just take care of
that, you know, like there's, that's oneof the things Tristan talks about that

(01:22:38):
was so powerful is, you know, everybodyhas their own way to approach the work.
Like you don't have to, you know,if you're an artist and you're
doing artwork around social justiceand, and, you know, inclusion and
whatever else, um, you know, if.

(01:22:59):
Have the capacity to March in the streetsor can, or don't want to like that's okay.
Like find your thing and do that.
So my, one of my biggest takeaways is,um, how everything that we do affects

(01:23:21):
others and with the not with rememberingthat we're all human and we're going
to make mistakes and that's okay.
And also being mindful of that.
So my biggest, so an example ofthis would be the White woman tears.

(01:23:42):
So I've always just been like,well, I was sad, so I cried.
Yeah.
And I've had to look at mytears and think, yes, I've
weaponized my tears before.
Not necessarily against people of Color.
Although I can think of a couple oftimes where I may have done that.
I don't, I have to dive deeperinto those things, but again,

(01:24:06):
you know, to get what I wanted.
Absolutely.
Like, yes, I was sad.
And also as like, I'mgoing to cry these tears.
So I got what I want, not necessarilythat conscious, but definitely.
And so being aware of how I respondin situations and it's made me a

(01:24:28):
lot less reactive and it's made me.
You know, a lot of times whenI would cry, I would shut down.
And now when I'm feeling sad andI'm crying, I try to reach forward.
Like as somebody actually, like myhusband's trying to comfort me instead
of just being like, no, leave me alone.
I like actively try toengage and give love.

(01:24:49):
Also, even though I'm in a sadplace and that makes me so much
more aware of what's happening.
Um, so that's, that's my biggest takeaway.
I mean, there's a lot of them, right?
Like you can't just boil it down, but if Ihad to choose one, I think that would be,

Loran (01:25:10):
and they feel like you've already touched on this a little bit.
Maybe you've got something elseto share about like what in your
life has changed since the series.
Began as flash and thensince the series success.

Jenny (01:25:24):
Yeah, I think it does go back to what I said before.
I, I go towards the spaces where Iknow I'm going to feel uncomfortable.
Um, um, I'm aware of how my physicalpresence are more aware of how
my physical presence and how, howI'm reacting to certain situations

(01:25:48):
is affecting people around me.
Um, and finding a balance betweenbeing self-conscious and aware is
something that I'm also working with.
Um, I speak up more.
I am very aware of thethings that I consume.

(01:26:10):
So books, movies, you know, stand up.
Clothing, anything I'm trying to be awareof where those things come from and who
they support or who they don't support.
Um, and even in my business, um, I'mtrying to be aware of not picking clients

(01:26:36):
based on who they believe or what theybelieve or what they, how they operate
politically or socially or whatever.
Um, but being aware of wherethey're at and trying to engage
in appropriate ways and see if Ican just leave a seed of thought.
Right, right.

(01:26:57):
Um, so yeah, that's, that'show my life has changed.

Loran (01:27:01):
That's a pretty big change

Jenny (01:27:04):
and it's, I mean, I don't always operate in those way every day.
Right.
Like I have some days whereI'm like, I'm so tired.

Loran (01:27:13):
Right?
We'd like default back to the laziness,
maybe laziness.
Isn't the right word.
Maybe it's like defaultingback into patterns.

Jenny (01:27:24):
You have patterns.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think laziness isalso part of it though.
Like not lazy in that wherewe don't want to do the work.
It's that we're tired.
Yeah.

Loran (01:27:36):
Right.
We know that the work is there.
We know we need to do the work.
And also, and

Jenny (01:27:40):
also, yeah, we're all I think, I don't remember who said this.
Maybe it was Evangeline and like,you can't do it at all by yourself.
And sometimes it just feelsreally overwhelming and it's like
other things happen in life too.
Right?
Like death and, and loss ofjobs and, um, moving, you know,
all those things that are huge.

(01:28:02):
Personally.
So then it's like, you don'thave a lot of space left.
So really trying to take time to restand rebuild because if you, you push
through, as the Ventolin says, you'rejust perpetuating supremacist culture,

Loran (01:28:21):
which that laps into the thing that's really changed in my-- in my life
is pushing back on White supremacistculture that I didn't even know was
inside of my body, uh, perfectionism one,right way mentality either or thinking.

(01:28:41):
And so now I'm trying to embracecuriosity and contradictions
a whole hell of a lot more.
And so when I receive frustration andanger and pushback, Um, I'm, I'm just
greeting it with so much more love andcuriosity now, uh, rather than, um, I

(01:29:05):
think earlier in The Spillway process,I think before the podcast, more of
it was this like righteous petty,uh, because it was so like overlapped
in that I think, um, cancel culture.
Um, I feel like I have the,I have the answers and you
don't and this is the answer.

(01:29:25):
And now it's, oh, if someone hadthe fucking answer, we wouldn't be
having this conversation at all.
If this work were profitable,this work wouldn't exist.
Yeah.
So those are the things.
Let's go into the themes.
This is the like overarching outof everything we've talked about.

(01:29:47):
What are like the most common thingsthat we've been talking about, but also
maybe there's something else that hasn'tcome up and it really is just like
a connection of these multiple dots.
What's the very, uh, doyou have yours in an order?
I don't really either.
I'll just start with one andthen that of this contradictions
contradictions seem to be a huge theme.

(01:30:07):
I think starting withAmy was the first one.
I think that we started to really talkabout it with these contradictions
by episode three were already there.
And it's interesting to see it kindof show up throughout these pieces
of, uh, the multitudes that we hold.
And then how that can like re bereembody with Sam or how it can be in

(01:30:30):
leftist spaces where we're not fullyworking through critical race theory
or interest convergence, uh, how cancelculture is White supremacy culture.
Just these contradictions aremassive and how we embody that.
It seems to be like apretty massive theme.

Jenny (01:30:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, one of minus community,community, community, you have
to do this work in community.
It's not a nice it's youcan't do it in isolation.
That seems

Loran (01:30:57):
I also have community.
And I'm thinking about.
Fred talked, I think twice about he wouldonly start an organization or another
group if there were multiple people onboard and then he would start up, it has
to be done in a group so that if someoneleaves other people can join on Amy's
working in classrooms of Angela and isworking on accountability and enjoy Bennis

(01:31:18):
talking about like White men and suicidefor not having fucking community Pablo
and vulnerability with other White men.
And then Tristan, even coming on thepodcast was like, this is like, the
pandemic has made this really isolating.
And this is a way for me to connectwith community that feels really lovely.

Jenny (01:31:35):
And the men's focus group, um, when you asked the question about
COVID and they misunderstood what youwere asking, they went and immediately
to White people being isolated.

Loran (01:31:48):
Yeah.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
I also had community onmy list if you can't tell.
So yeah, we've got a we'vedouble done community.
Do you have name another.

Jenny (01:31:59):
This is more an observation maybe than a theme, but that almost none of the
people that we spoke with social media.
No, I mean, evangelist on she'son Instagram, but it's through her
organization and Facebook, but mostly, youknow, trusted and got off of social media.

(01:32:25):
Um, the Whites of the round table.
Nope.
White to the round table.
The most, any of them are on his LinkedIn.
Oh no.
Lynn is on Facebook, butwith his organization.
Okay.
Before solidarity,

Loran (01:32:39):
right?
Yep.
Yeah.
Jared like completely went off LinkedIn.
He just made a post about itrecently, but that was Joel Nagel.
Pretty active on LinkedIn sometimes.
Um, but then just startat a Tik TOK account.
That's really exciting, butthat was like the only time.
Right.

(01:32:59):
But there's the thing like, oh, Imade a new account out of the 13

Jenny (01:33:03):
people we talked to.
Yeah.
In the men's focus group, you know,Jay was like, I used to post, you know,
anti-racist stuff, but not really anymore.
And Tish was the only realone that had like a lot of
interaction on social media, social

Loran (01:33:20):
media theme of social media, social media.
Yeah.
I just, I don't know how or why,or if change can happen there after
this, it just seems like there'ssuch a, there's such a space for it,
but no one wants to take up becauseit is so fucking terrifying though.
Yeah.
Um, another one that I hadwas curiosity and mistake.

(01:33:43):
That seemed really large, not all of it.
And I think in this, like maybe larger,maybe like another synonym would be
vulnerability, maybe this larger kind ofconsistent theme throughout the pieces?

Jenny (01:33:56):
Fear,
White people fear.
Hmm.
Um, which maybe wasn't explicit,but I think it was definitely
an undertone, especially withgetting people onto the podcast.
You had to do a lot of like reassuringeven with, I mean, especially

(01:34:17):
with me, you know what I mean?
I think it was yes there for

Loran (01:34:21):
sure.
That's interesting.
I didn't even think about.
It that way with White peoplefear, but looking at the first
like five or six episodes, theywere all people that I knew.
And so it was very easy for them to,like, as evangelists says, when White
people work with other White people, youhave to name who you are and name your
contacts, name, your heart name, whereyou're coming from in order for people to

(01:34:43):
be able to hold you accountable with love.
And yeah, I think it was,as Jay was saying, hold me
with love and lead with love.
And so to reach out to peoplewho didn't know me from Adam
were like, fuck, is this mass?
And so people were receivingit in these weird ways.
And so you really had to like positionyourself in a way that almost felt

(01:35:07):
in human with caveat after caveat,after caveat of this is who I am.
Yeah.
There's there was a lot.
Yeah.
It's a really good, there'sa lot of weight, fear.
I still fucking think aboutthose six fucking human.
Who I reached out for, for the LGBTQWhite people episode that just never
fucking responded, but that these peoplehave made these public commitments

(01:35:30):
to racial justice and equity.
But the second it was like, Hey,let's, let's work on White people.
They couldn't even fucking respond.

Jenny (01:35:38):
Right.
And the fear, White people fear,just to clarify, isn't afraid
of people of Color it's afraid.
Well, the, the fear that I, thetheme of fear that I'm talking about
is a fear of other White people.
You know what I mean?
It's

Loran (01:35:59):
yeah.
Yeah.
Wait, people love to not trust other waypeople, uh, which leads to my last theme.
Yeah, that shit.
Aye.
How often we talk about council culture?
66 times 66 times.
Yeah, we talked about that a lot.

(01:36:21):
Wow.
I did not realize how much of this.
My work was going to be about thisvast overlap of cancel culture.
Wait, cancel culture.
Yeah.
Jonah, all last theme was that

Jenny (01:36:33):
five of them.
Let's see.
1, 2, 3, 4, 5.
No, that wasn't five of them.
I have two more.
I have two left.
So what you might be missing one counted.
So mine was White women tears.
And I think that one's like veryselfish cause I just, it affects me.

Loran (01:36:53):
Right.
Well, we did talk, I think to me itkind of went into the vulnerability.
He wouldn't talk aboutWhite women tears probably.
Five of the 12 episodes.
Yeah, mine was community socialmedia, curiosity, mistakes,
vulnerability, cancel culture.
And then contradictions.

Jenny (01:37:11):
Oh, maybe you did

Loran (01:37:11):
them.
I overlapped on your community.
I like double loud.

Jenny (01:37:16):
Oh, I forgot.
Yes.

Loran (01:37:19):
Cause community.
Yeah.
That's the number one theme.

Jenny (01:37:23):
Do you want to hear

Loran (01:37:23):
my last one?
No, we're done.
We can go home now.
The end.

Jenny (01:37:28):
Um, it was love.

Loran (01:37:30):
Oh, ah.
Oh, I love that.
That's where we're like coming tothis natural conclusion of love.
You were so right.
There is a huge theme of lovethroughout this entire thing.

Jenny (01:37:41):
I feel like that's the, like if you just take all of the layers away
of everything, that's important andunimportant, the reason why you're doing
this is because of love ultimately.
And not that love of, like we talkabout with evangelists, not like the.

(01:38:01):
Not the greeting card love, but thesupport, accountability type, like
that deep, that deep connection tohumans and the world that we live in.

Loran (01:38:14):
I think when I there's something about the word accountability,
that's like rubs me wrong.
And I think it's because I hear it sooften in social justice and left spaces.
And so I guess for me, I'm also justthinking about this extemporaneously, but
rather like love and interconnectedness.

(01:38:36):
And so if you do something thatimpacts our interconnectedness or
interwoven newness or mutualityvignette, we're going to talk about it.
We're going to explore it.
We're going to excavate it.
We're going to like totally holdspace for whatever the fuck happened.
But there's no one rightway to repair fabric.

(01:38:56):
And so yeah, through accountability tothat, whatever that is, but like, yeah.
Love, love at those, this, that,ah, you have this very literal
microphone in front of you right now.
There are people who are sitting intraffic or folding their laundry or
listening to this podcast, White people.
What do you want them to know?

Jenny (01:39:16):
Don't be afraid or be afraid, but do it anyway.
That's better.
Oh yeah.
If you're afraid, that's okay.
That's super human of you and you're notalone in that and show up anyway, the best
you can in the best way that you know how,even if it feels insignificant to you,

(01:39:39):
even if it's just giving someone of Colorvisibility at the grocery store saying,
hello, meeting their eyes, how are you?
Or, you know, riding to your.
Um, representatives and showing up toa caucus space or, um, an anti-racist

(01:40:03):
class or setting up, um, a book club,you know, people talk a lot of shit
about book clubs, but, you know,for some people that's the best way
they know how to engage the work.
So be afraid if you areand know that that's okay.
And do it anyway.

(01:40:27):
I mean, there's a lot of,
you always make me do one thing or thenlike five things and it's hard to choose,

Loran (01:40:41):
you know?
Right.
Cause there's no one right thingfor people to hear, you know,

Jenny (01:40:48):
So, so Loran, you have this very literal microphone in front of you.
There's some White folks, foldinglaundry, taking their dog for
a while, sitting in traffic.
What is one thing that you would sayto them at the end of season one?

Loran (01:41:11):
I think I'm going to take a note from Fred and ask a question.
Can you see how compassion, empathy,patience, and understanding are not tools

(01:41:33):
within the master's tool box to go back tothe Audrey Lorde quote, the master's tools
will never dismantle the master's house.
Patience.
Understanding compassion and empathy areso foreign to White supremacist culture.

(01:41:55):
That if we start to build thosetools within our toolboxes and belts,
imagine what we can do when we bringmore love into our work, because
love, when I think of love, I donot believe that I was taught that

(01:42:17):
as a White supremacist doctrine.
I never understood love has beenconnected to White supremacy.
And so that's my that's.
I think my charge go upyourself, go left your neighbors.

(01:42:40):
Hmm.
Go live your community
and show up with general genuine curiosityfor how to make your relationship better.
And that's not to say thateveryone has to get along.
And this whole, like now kind of utopichippy-dippy Woodstock lifestyle, but

(01:43:04):
rather we are all interconnected.
My humanity is wrapped upin yours and yours and mine.
And so if you want to treat me likeshit out, we're going to get a shit.
If you want to treat me withlove, we're going to get us love.
And we're going to get so muchfurther in this conversation.
If we use so much morehoney than we do better.

(01:43:28):
And so this may not feel right.
It may feel like super counterintuitive.
And maybe that's why it's theexact answer or one of the answers.
Because it's the one

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