June 4, 2022 • 47 mins
What does it mean to be a White person in the US today?
If you mention or see race, you're racist.
If you don't mention or see race, you're racist.
A few months ago, I (Loran) started an organization, The Spillway, around supporting White people to work through Perpetrator Induced Traumatic Stress (PITS) and interGenerational trauma. I offer the services within The Spillway with the acknowledgment that healing work is merely one mechanism within a larger network required to sustain our collective movement towards racial justice. I seek to grow the services available rather than redistribute where we put our efforts and funding. To get this message out there, I’ve asked one of the most compassionate, ferociously tender, hilarious, and incredibly smart humans I know, Jenny, to join me on this podcasting journey.
Jenny and I come from similar yet separate backgrounds. Importantly, we offer incredibly different perspectives, sometimes just by who we are as people and other times by the different identities we hold.
We are committed to building compassion, understanding, empathy, and patience into the present and future of Whiteness and White Culture. We cannot change the past. But, we can change the future through the actions we take today.
We seek to embody the work of James Baldwin, Sonya Renee Taylor, Kazu Haga, Resmaa Menekem, and Kai Cheng Thom and countless others asking for White people to (in so many words) get our shit together. Since starting The Spillway, there’s been consistent feedback—sometimes within the same space—that White people are engaging this work with closed hearts and minds
This work can be difficult and beautiful. It is an exercise in vulnerability, in unlearning perfectionism, with real-world consequences, in an age of 7-second judgments. We hope The Spillway and our living in it can give others the courage that is needed to join us in this work.
We know that attempting to be vulnerable and consenting to learn in public is incredibly terrifying work. And yet we have to start somewhere. Conversations of race and racism aren’t going away anytime soon. Given our incredibly different places in the world, we’re trying to create a middle ground where White people can get together to talk and create action around the paradox of being White in the US, where we are simultaneously the perpetrators and victims of the race and racism.
We seek to embody the work of countless activists of color who have been calling White folks to seek our own healing around race and racism. So here we are, two White people committing to the work of individual and collective healing around race and racism for white people. Healing ourselves is no one's responsibility but our own.
Let’s Heal together and Grow to stop the impacts of race and racism in the lives of People of Color, and our lives as well.
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Welcome to our podcast. We’re so glad you’re here refocusing on Whiteness without supremacy or shame. Listen. Like. Follow.
Instagram: @the.spillway | Facebook: @WithoutSupremacyorShame
For a transcript of this episode and more, please visit our website, www.thespillway.org
Mentioned in this episode:
The Spillway Community Guidelines
1. Engage sequentially. The show is a serial not episodic. We do this so we can build relation and find common ground and context. 2. We stay in our own lane. The Spillway is about White people talking to (predominately) White people about White people and White culture. We're not out here to critique anyone's actions but our own. 3. Our combined fabric of destiny. (3a) As Dr. King said, our humanities are deeply interconnected to each other. Racism negatively impacts me, too. (3b) The Spillway is one mechanism within a larger framework needed to sustain racial equity and...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Loran (00:25):
I feel like,
Jenny (00:29):
I feel like we're.
Frodo and whoever
Loran (00:35):
Oh my god stop.
Jenny (00:36):
I don't know any of their names where they, you know, me and names where
they drop their ring into the fire.
And that's, we're on like a Tolkien quest
Loran (00:50):
that's
Jenny (00:51):
yes.
It's.
I mean, I'm not mad about it, but I.
Loran (00:58):
Um, I worked so hard on those.
Not that I made it, but then like Iworked with someone who worked so hard.
Jenny (01:08):
Okay.
What do I feel like we're in, um,uh, an episode of The Hours, not
an episode that was a movie perfectfor our guests, the hours where.
Virginia Woolf doesn't endup at the bottom of the Creek
with rocks in her pocket.
(01:30):
And Ed Harris, doesn't throwhimself out of the window.
And, you know,
Loran (01:36):
if there were one year that they could have given out two Oscars,
It should have been the year thatNicole Kidman lost to Halle Berry.
Cause they both deserved that Oscarevery time I think of Nicole Kidman,
I always just think, oh, you shouldhave gotten it from Moulin Rouge
and then I remember that that's theyear that Halle Berry one, I think.
Ah, yeah, if only we could have
Jenny (01:57):
Was she nominated for Moulin Rouge?
Little Loran was devastated thatshe lost to Halle Berry I mean,
she was so good.
Well, you know, me and myNicole Kidman problem, um,
Loran (02:10):
IRR regardless IRR regardless, regardless this.
Okay.
So I'm glad you brought up TheHours because it has Phillip
Glass who did the score for this
Jenny (02:21):
that's what I was.
That's why I was saying
Loran (02:23):
perfect.
Okay.
So it was like thinking about music.
And I was like, what has thislike incredibly repetitive theme?
And it's ostinato and that'slike what Phillip Glass does of
*hums ostinato rhythm*
Jenny (02:39):
It works so
Loran (02:40):
well
um, and I feel like that, causeit was like, what is Whiteness?
It's just like these themes that just keeprepeating over and over and over again.
Um, and so that's how I like went to this.
Amazing artist and it was like,Hey, I'm looking for a theme song.
That's like built on ostinato becausethat is Whiteness the same thing for
repeating over and over and over again.
(03:03):
And this beautiful person, BrianStevenson was like, oh, say less got it.
And he worked at this like reallytalented composer and he like came up
with all of this really amazing stuff.
Um, but now when I play it forpeople, they're like, whoa, the only
time I've ever heard ostinato is inthese like really epic film scores.
Jenny (03:28):
So that's one
Loran (03:32):
that's one, but then two also, like we're still, we're
talking about race and racism.
Like, we don't want this to belike, oh, Hey, this doesn't matter.
Right?
Like lo-fi hip hop, beat.
Jenny (03:46):
I mean, sorry.
Loran (03:49):
I put a lot of thought.
Jenny (03:51):
Yeah, I see that.
I don't, so I don't,
I guess when I hear my voice,I don't think ostinato or
deep, you know what I mean?
I feel like I hear like, What's thatthing on Instagram, that song like *sings
a jaunty circus-like carnival song.
Or maybe, like an ice-creamtruck* whatever that that song is.
(04:16):
Um, but I think it's, it's beautiful.
It is
Loran (04:21):
very lovely.
I think so, too.
Thank you.
I do.
I think we're just trying to in culturebuilding, this is, it's a huge task.
It's not some little tiny thing that we'retrying to shy away from it in some ways,
like, if we want to extend that metaphor.
Yes, we are trying to take this ring.
White supremacy and White shameand throw this into the fires of
Jenny (04:45):
release Gollum
from yeah.
Loran (04:50):
And yeah, like race and racism is some serious work no that's serious.
Yeah.
And I think we're also twovery silly people sometimes.
Gosh.
So yeah, I don't, I justdidn't want to make light no,
Jenny (05:09):
no.
And it definitely doesn't do that.
Um, it's definitely.
Oh,
*cackles* *lots of
laughs* oh,
(05:32):
I am my mother's daughter.
Bless her heart.
It
speaks to exactly what's at the heartof the matter, which is something.
That, like you said isrepeated over and over again.
And something.
That's going to take a lot ofwork and a lot of care and time
(05:57):
to rectify and it's a lofty goal.
And I don't think we're expectingourselves to fix it all.
But we're reaching towards making a wayso that others can join in the work and,
and together we can fix the problem.
(06:18):
Right.
A pretty huge
problem.
So I think it's perfect is what I'm trying to say.
Loran (06:27):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Cause I worked really hard on it.
*both laugh*
Jenny (06:32):
You didin't make it.
Loran (06:57):
I am a social worker by trade and by training and one of the very first
things that you learn on the groundrunning is you have to meet your clients
where they are not where you want themto be, not where they were, but where
they are walking through your door thatday, and it's going to change constantly.
(07:18):
And so you have to always be mindfuland always be present as to who and how.
Someone is showing up to, uh, becomemore happy, healthy, and productive
humans in this large co-created world.
And we're all defining that for ourselves.
We're defining that for our families, forour communities, for our neighborhoods
(07:39):
and the more clients were coming in,having conversations of race and racism.
I realized not only in.
The folks that I was serving, butalso within myself that these were
actually trauma responses that wewere having as White people talking
about race and racism, irritability,hostility, depression, anxiety,
(08:00):
shame, grief, reactions, feelings ofvulnerability, emotional detachment
these are trauma responses.
These are delayed emotional reactionsto trauma that we can get stuck in.
And yet the larger social narrativethat we were having around race and
racism is that White people are thetraumatizers not the traumatized.
(08:25):
So I was trying to figure outhow we reconcile these two pieces
until I began to understandPerpetrator Induced Traumatic Stress.
Uh, but then also intergenerational traumaand how that shows up in our bodies.
And so while we were founded onthe principle that hurt people
can hurt people, White people arehurting and our healing as possible.
(08:46):
We're really driven by the work of undoingtraumas, uh, the traumas of White people
and the traumas of the White experience,uh, and holding that trauma informed work.
Can have radical implications forhow we understand compassion, love,
(09:08):
empathy, understanding, and patience.
This work is not about creating excuses.
It's about better understanding whereWhite people are coming from so that
we're meeting people where they're at andinvesting in healing as prevention work.
Our society has created a fairlysolid single story narrative
(09:30):
about Whiteness and White people.
And it reinforces the desireto shame and isolate Whiteness
and White people and to that.
I simply ask is what we'redoing, actually working?
More White people voted for presidentTrump's make America great again, campaign
in 2020, than in 2016, and CRT becamethe wedge issue of the 2021 elections.
(09:55):
I'd argue that it's not workingand that new approaches are needed.
And when we say we, we mean Whitepeople here at The Spillway.
I am not trying to have this conversationwith anyone other than White people as
a White person, I need to stay and wantthis stay in my lane I'm not trying
(10:16):
to do, nor do I intend to tell folksof Color how to act, think, or behave.
These conversations andactions are for White people.
And because White organizing hashistorically been about maintaining
dominance, White people talkingwith other White people has
happened behind closed doors inback rooms or in secret societies.
(10:36):
And The Spillway is not that.
All of our materials method andpractice is freely available on our
social media channels and website.
And to break this theory down andthis action down, we're going to
have many teach-ins to explorethe underpinnings of The Spillway.
In the first season of The Spillwaypodcast, we're going to unpack
(10:57):
perpetration induced, traumaticstress, intergenerational trauma,
and the origins of The Spillway.
And we'll have longer episodes wherewe interview folks working through
their experiences of being White.
Sometimes that will look like thoughtleaders and scholars in the field.
And other times it will be ingroups of everyday White folks.
Just trying to make sense of thechanging world as White people, we
(11:20):
cannot fit the entire experience ofWhiteness and White culture into a
single season of The Spillway podcast.
If there's a specific or even generaltopic that you'd like to see addressed.
Explored or unpacked in seasontwo, don't hesitate to drop us
a line at info@thespillway.orgI N F o@thespillway.org.
(11:44):
That's a little bit of our roadmapand where we're headed in season one.
For now let's return to our inauguralchat where I'm joined with my
copilot, Jenny, and you can get toknow your crew for this journey.
(12:30):
I just got home from therapy and I wastelling me therapist, uh, about the
podcast and they're super excited about.
Um, but they were wanting toknow who we're talking to.
And so I was telling them some ofour guests and I was telling them
what one of them were saying aboutpreciousness and they stopped.
(12:53):
And they were like, Loran!
That is not the way that we talk aboutWhite people and racial justice at all.
White people are not precious.
Like that's the first thing you learn.
The very first thing that you.
Um, all of our work is about likeun- doing it and un- learning that.
(13:13):
And so here I am, I'm trying tomaybe push back on that a little bit.
Just a skoch um, I think we can geta little bit further with honey than
vinegar, and then I'm just trying tolike genuinely figure out why we're
building, uh, anti-racists movements.
(13:35):
on shame.
Like I get it, like, I think at its core,like I think I understand it of like,
yes, awful atrocities have happened.
Yeah.
And what future, what cultureare we actively trying to build?
And sometimes I think we get stuckin trying to address the hurts and
(13:55):
harms while also trying to address theinfrastructure of our relationships.
And I think that that'swhere if we didn't like lose.
The humanity of each other.
If we lose each, each of our individualpreciousness, not that one person is more
precious than the other, or one personhas more humanity than, than the other.
(14:16):
But if we're able to access that andactually say, oh yeah, we're doing
this because we're human because welove each other because at the very
core of your being is lovability.
Ooh, I like imagine what we could build
Jenny (14:31):
I guess too, you know, it's how do we do that while still
paying homage to our pain, right?
Like you want to, right?
Like, you don't want tonegate pain or suffering.
(14:51):
You want to honor it, which issomething that one guest also said.
Then, if you're not trulyhonoring your pain, you're lying
and you can't move forward.
So it's like, how do we do
both?
Loran (15:11):
The Resmaa Menakem quote that White people need to be doing this work
Black people need to be doing this work.
And we probably should not bedoing this in the exact same space
because we have to heal and to heal.
We've got attended to wounds.
That's our business andthat's no one else's business.
(15:32):
Um, part of the problem withWhite people is that we've
made it other people's business
And so one of the goals of The Spillwayis to make sure that we are making
sure that it's our business and we'renot making it other people's business,
that we're going to stay in our lane.
Right.
And we're going to do our healing workto make sure that we can support the
(15:53):
healing spaces for other folks too.
Yeah.
So in starting this podcastafter probably what was this?
Four or five months of startingThe Spillway on social media.
I realized very quickly thatpeople need to hear these ideas
(16:15):
and conversations in person.
Like there needs to be an actual,like a doing of the thing.
Um, rather than this kind of passive,oh, I just scrolled past your thing or
I like kind of get it, or I don't know.
Uh, there's this, there's a lotof seeing that's happening now.
We've got to do a lot of talking andthen we can go into the, do see hear
(16:35):
that kind of like learning model.
So I have asked one of my favoritepeople in the entire world.
She's ridiculously smart.
She is hilarious.
If you have an opinion aboutan author, She as well has
(16:56):
an opinion about that author.
She has probably read that author andcould maybe quote, a couple of good book
titles, uh, that you should be reading.
She has the heart of like awhale that gets massive and she
cares a great deal about me.
And so she has been incrediblypatient and compassionate in this
(17:18):
journey with me as I was like, HeyJenny, I want to help White people.
Jenny (17:26):
You want to do what?
Loran (17:29):
Uh, and so talking with her, uh, about race and racism
as two White people has been bothsuper, um, educational for me.
Um, but it's also changed the way thatI approach this work uh, especially
because they come from academiawhere everyone likes to talk in
14 syllable words and say, uh, youknow, 20 words when they could have
(17:54):
said one, just to say yes or no.
And Jenny loves to cutthrough the bullshit.
And so, uh, I also felt like it wasimportant to have Jenny here too,
because she's a bullshit cutter.
And we'll just say, I don'tknow that doesn't make sense.
I don't get that.
Don't do that.
Why are you doing that?
Uh, so it grounds me in thisreally lovely way and it also,
(18:17):
I think, elevates the work.
I think it elevates it becauseit makes it more accessible.
It makes it more approachable and itmakes it more personable because of that.
So really I should be thanking
you.
Um, but thank you for joining me so much
Jenny (18:36):
Thanks for having me.
It's very, it's an honor.
Loran (18:39):
Please tell me about this honor.
Jenny (18:41):
*both laugh* Tell me about the honor.
So essentially, so when youstarted this journey, I was like,
God dammit, like why this way?
Why?
But, um, the more that I,and I do care immensely about
you, so you could basically.
(19:03):
You know, anyway, we won't go therebecause it's inappropriate, but
Loran (19:07):
I'm going to go there.
Where are you gonna say,
Jenny (19:09):
I was gonna say you could basically shit in my hand and I'd be
like, oh my God, it's so beautiful.
But this is what that kind of minimizes.
Why we're here.
Um, the more I spoke to you about thiswork and the more you taught me about
social justice, I became aware of.
(19:31):
This piece of my life that was missing,um, this piece of understanding
that I didn't have and my abilityto be like, oh, I don't know.
I'm not saying I'm justnow don't see that.
And, uh, I think it happened a lottoo, when we were talking in terms
(19:52):
of your gender and gender in general,that's really where it started.
But then when you began on this pathto help White people and you founded
The Spillway and I was, you know,engaged in your work and we were
talking about it as it was happening,sort of in real time, uh, Uh, realized
how much I avoid discussions aboutrace and racism and real life.
(20:18):
You know, Instagram is one thing, butbeing an actual conversation about it,
because I had so much shame and self hateand, you know, ignorance about the history
of race and racism and, you know, myown, my own background as a White person.
And.
That I realized that, oh, Ire I really need this work.
(20:41):
Cause originally I was justgoing to support you because
you're you and I love you.
Um, but then I was like, ohno, but I need help help me!
So, um, and I believe in the message,you know, I also think the most
important piece for me was to take theresponsibility of White people healing
(21:03):
off of the doorstep of people, of Color
and into, into a space where it's,you know, like away from they've, they
don't need to be our healers, you know,they've had, they have enough and, and
are doing enough and it's our turn.
So to do our own work.
Loran (21:21):
Right.
And that was the only reason thatI felt that it was okay to start.
The Spillway was because of.
Folks of Color had said repeatedlyand have said repeatedly for decades,
if not centuries White people, Ineed you to start loving yourself.
Because once you love yourself,this was James Baldwin.
Once you start loving yourself, the"Black problem" so to speak goes
away, the existence of Blacknessgoes away because all that, that
(21:45):
was was, you're not loving yourself.
Right.
And then that turnsinto like Bayard Rustin.
What is loved can be cured love foryourself, fix that, fix that um, and
so, yeah, this is White people work.
This is the work thatWhite people have to do.
And I, and I think that that was the thingthat I kept hearing in social justice
spaces well White people have to do thework, White people have to do the work.
(22:08):
Okay.
Well, what was the work like?
You keep saying that, but thenlike, what are we supposed to do?
What are we supposed to do?
Because White people andanti-racism work a White people.
Are just supposed tokeep educating ourselves.
Education is supposed tobe this like silver bullet.
That's supposed to change everything.
(22:28):
Um, but then like, as we saw in 2020, whathappens after your book club ends or did
like, did people actually embody this?
Did people actually change theircommunities or their homes?
Their neighborhoods.
And I think in large part, no,because then look at what happened
a year later when we're lookingat the elections, uh, of school
(22:51):
boards and the conversation of CRT.
I think people went backto this like, oh, Nope.
I need to go back to safety,
uh, on this podcast, Jenny and Iare going to take us along on some
really, I think some fun interviews,some challenging interviews, um,
(23:12):
some sad interviews, um, but alsosome really, uh, engaging interviews.
And I think in order foryou, the listener to.
To be on this journey with usand for you to feel like, yeah,
we exist between your ears.
(23:33):
We want, we want to exist between yourheart to open within your heart too um,
so I thought I may be helpful for us tokind of locate ourselves, give a little
bit about like who we are, maybe share alittle bit of our racial origin stories.
Um, Because we're twovery different people.
We're very, very, very similar.
(23:54):
We're very, very different.
And that's what I think makesour relationship really lovely.
Um, so Jenny, I would love to hear kindof your racial origin story growing
up in Texas, and then moving to NewYork city in 2004, where we met each
other, um, that kind of gap between.
(24:19):
Uh, before 2004, who is that person?
Who are you?
Oh man.
* Jenny (24:25):
from Drop Dead Gorgeous* "Who are you?
It's a little game we play".
Um, so first of all, I'm White,which just want to point that out.
I'm from Texas born and raised,spent my formative years there.
(24:48):
My parents were in their latethirties, mid forties when they had me.
One of them is hails from Europe andthe other one came from the east coast.
From an Italian-American background.
(25:09):
So very, very different folksliving under one roof, just,
just to smidge I'm an only child.
So, and we didn't live near family.
So it was definitely a sort of a.
Time capsule of, of hurts and stuff.
(25:30):
There was a lot going on.
Um, in my memory, at least it wasn'tsuper happy, you know, childhood, but
in terms of, of what we're talkingabout though, I was raised to view
myself as, as an actual minority.
Hmm in the town that I lived in, Iwas raised to understand my place
(25:55):
in the world as a victim, not justracially, but in every aspect.
Loran (25:59):
What do you mean by every
Jenny (26:00):
aspect?
So if something wasn't happening theway that I thought it should, or the way
that somebody around me thought it shouldin regards to my advancement in life,
then it was because of someone else.
So, um, it wasn't just something thathappened or maybe I didn't put the
(26:22):
work in or whatever the case may be.
It was always because I wasn't seen assomeone who needed help or assistance.
Right, right.
Um, so at the same time though, I was,I was taught to not expect handouts.
Handouts it's in quotes to not expecthelp, to not ask for help, to, to
(26:46):
keep everything close to the vest.
I think the phrase was don'tair, our dirty laundry.
It was asked of me why I couldn't justshut up, you know, stuff like that.
So anyway, so you know, all of thatsort of informed how I viewed the world.
So with that lens in mind, whenI went into school, Race and
racism, uh, was presented in away that placed them in the past.
(27:10):
So they were taught in history classes.
And so we were, it was, the framing waslike, this happened a long time ago before
you were born for your parents were born.
So, you know, it's, uh, it was awfuland, you know, things were bad, but
now it's over so we can move forward.
And even though all ofthis is sort of going on.
(27:31):
I had most of my friends wereHispanic or, or people of Color I
think I had the whole, like, I don'tsee color thing maybe going on.
My, my worldview was super narrow.
So not only was I sort of likeprisoner to this house of three people
who didn't understand each other.
(27:52):
And there was a lot of turmoil, butI was also, you know, in a schooling
system that focused on race and racism.
As a past thing that happened.
And also, um, didn't reallytake a wider view of the world.
We had a lot of Texas history and so my,yeah, my view of life was super narrow.
(28:13):
It wasn't very nuanced.
That stuff didn't happen untilI moved to New York city.
Loran (28:19):
Yeah.
I definitely get better offeeling the colorblind lens.
Oh, my parents rockedthat one so hard, so hard.
I I'm White.
I grew up in Colorado and one ofthe earliest stories that I ever
heard about race actually camefrom an incident with my grandpa.
(28:39):
My dad was a basketball coachand before the kids came in the
picture, they were bringing someof the, uh, the basketball troop.
What are they called?
Basketball.
Thank you as a team, the team,
Jenny (28:56):
I love that you turned it into
theater.
Loran (29:03):
Troupe came over.
We're like, can we stayat your house, grandpa?
Uh, literally that's what happened?
Um, so my dad was bringing, uh,a basketball player over to.
Uh, their hometown, theylived like six hours away.
(29:24):
Um, and they were like comingin for a night or something and
they were like, oh, he just needsa place to stay for the night.
Cause we're here for thisconference or whatever.
And my grandpa was like,no, he can't stay here.
And then like why, whatare you talking about?
Oh, cause he's Black and I didn'treally, like, I didn't know
that about my grandpa until.
(29:46):
Uh, like my parents told me the story.
I just thought he was like thisreally angry curmudgeonly human,
who just likes hated everybody,
Jenny (29:55):
everybody.
It didn't matter every, yeah.
Loran (29:58):
Except for the dog.
Love for the dog.
Of tippy Joe tippy, Joe tippy, Joe.
Um, but just like hated people andspecifically like, didn't want this
Black person saying under his roof.
Um, and so it was this like storythat my parents told me to like, point
(30:18):
out that they were good White people.
What I was like, oh, I want to put thisroof over the Black person's head or I
want to show you that I am not my grandpa,or I'm like, "I'm not my dad" to kind of
like, create this distance of me, not him.
Um, but also this like,"oh times have changed."
Cause I remember thinking like,why would grandpa say that?
(30:39):
Like that's just bad.
That's racist grandpa.
That that was always the responsetimes are just different.
The times were just different than,uh, as if it was okay then right.
And with that, there was thereally intense kind of political
charge that ran through our family.
And I think a lot of thathappened to do with my dad having.
(31:01):
Fairly prominent public positionwith a local public school district.
And so our family was constantlyunder this microscope of what is
acceptable and what is not acceptable.
So we were, we were taught veryearly and very clearly you do not
see color, just don't see color.
Like that was just the, uh,the political thing to do was
(31:24):
to just see people as people.
But not as individualsif that makes sense.
There was, um, respect theirblanket, humanity, but not
their individual differences.
It was like holding that, but alsoat the same time, I'm holding that,
uh, within our family photo albums,there are family members in blackface.
(31:45):
And there are people laughingbecause you know, because
"it's just a different time."
Right?
And so holding these multitudes at thesame time left for this really kind
of confusing, but very clear, uh, kindof narrative that race and racism is
something you just don't talk about.
Um, or when you do you just say,oh, it doesn't happen anymore
(32:08):
because that's a different time.
It's like, oh, now that maybe it'snow that we're in the, there, it's
just going to be completely different.
And I'm like having these conversationsor not having these conversations,
uh, with family, both likeimmediate and extended and like,
uh, like intensely segregated area.
(32:30):
Like if you, there was a town andif you imagine a donut around the
town, Around the perimeter waswhere all of the White people lived.
Um, and then in inside thedonut, the donut hole is where
all of the folks of Color lived.
It was interesting that youwould like live in this like
predominantly White area.
And then when you were to go intotown to go to Walmart, to go to Kmart,
(32:52):
go to the movies, that's where youactually saw people who looked different
from you or looked differently.
And yes, it wasn't like acompletely like 50, 50 split.
Like the town that I, the neighborhoodthat I grew up in was like 60.
I looked at the demographics on thisthat's 65% White, 30% Hispanic, 5%
(33:14):
mixed race and 4% Native, Black orAsian, but then in the city was 44%
White, 49% Hispanic and 6% mixed race.
So it was almost like a switch.
So yeah, it was like we're havingthese conversations, but White
flight has also already occurred.
And so we now don't have tohave these conversations because
(33:35):
we've made it to be that way.
That was kind of my upbringing up to 2004.
I'm moving to New York and then everythingimmediately and rapidly changed.
Once you go and just stand on the cornerof 71st and Columbus for 30 seconds, you
see more and different people than you'veever seen before in your entire life.
(33:56):
And it's magical and important andtransformative and educational.
And.
humbling to have about18 year old going what?
The world looks like this,
there was this.
Really kind of peculiar moment thatI've had on my life that I don't
(34:18):
know if a lot of other White peoplehave shared, um, uh, for a very
long time, I worked at a nonprofit,uh, supporting LGBTQ young folks.
And for about, I want to say maybehalf of the time that I worked there,
I was the only White direct serviceprovider and the majority of our.
(34:38):
Clients and the young people thatcame through the doors, uh, we're
an, our youth of Color and so I hadthis really interesting and unique
experience of sometimes being theonly White person in the space.
And this would go on for months, if notyears, where I came to understand kind of.
(35:03):
But kind of preciousness thatcomes with being the only in
a space when it comes to race.
And there were times when.
I was asked to leave spaces because notbecause of who I am, but because of who
I represented or because who I remindedpeople of, or I would ask permission
to come into spaces because I knew thatit wasn't about me, but it was about
(35:26):
the color of my skin for some folksthat they just needed a healing space.
And actually just to not see a Whiteperson that day, because there had
been some pain that had happened.
Uh, there were also other timeswhere I got to be the spokesperson
for all the White people.
And they would say Loran,"why do White people...?"
Or "Loran, what are Whitepeople doing with..."
(35:48):
"Loran?
What are..., why are..., who are...,"and I would not trade that experience
for the world that it really White me.
Exist and live in my Whiteness in away that I could not hide from it.
I could not say, oh, no, I'm not WhiteI couldn't, I couldn't turn it off.
I couldn't live in this colorblind worldthat my parents had tried to raise me on.
(36:11):
I really had to lean into it.
And so it really uniquely situated me tosee a race in this very different way.
Um, but in that, uh, there were someWhite people that were on staff and we
would talk a lot about what it meantto be White uh, and what it meant to
be White and showing up at that space.
And we would use these, thatcredentialing, these words, these actions,
(36:33):
this rigidity, and thinking, um, sometimesto make it safe, to have conversations
and safe and, and air quotes here.
Um, because we wanted to make surethat we weren't hurting people.
Um, and sometimes hurting peoplemeant also like hurting ourselves.
Um, but we weren't naming that.
Yeah, we were just wanting to makesure that we were doing as much
(36:54):
work as we could on the outside tomake sure that we weren't hurting
folks of Color on the inside.
Um, but to do that, we were completelyburning ourselves at both ends, um,
to make sure that we were like beingthe good White as much as possible.
And it was fucking exhausting.
It was exhausting.
(37:14):
Um, because I didn't think aboutmy own humanity in the process.
Right.
I was so wrapped up in another person'shumanity, um, that I didn't care about me.
And so it wasn't sustainable.
And in that, if it's not sustainable,then it's actually not justice.
Right.
Jenny (37:30):
Right.
Also like, who is it serving?
Loran (37:32):
Right.
Who was it actually serving?
And then is it, oh, are youjust doing this out of guilt?
Right.
That that's really where The Spillwaycame in and that I kept hearing.
No, no, no, no, no Whitepeople will always be racist.
Always, always, always be racist.
And it didn't make sense to me because Ididn't know what we're fighting for then.
Because I kept on this one side seeing,uh, me being this, this quest to be the
(37:56):
good White person where it wasn't causingany harm to any person of Color ever.
But I was completely negatingmyself and then thinking, oh, wow,
it's always going to be this way.
It will forever be this way.
And then I found out that White people aregoing to become a racial minority by 2045.
(38:17):
And then that really hit me twice ofwell, wait, then it can't be that way.
Because what happens when thereare more folks of Color in the U.S.
Than there are White people than howwe're like defining racism as power plus
discrimination, uh, racial discriminationequals racism and social power will shift.
(38:37):
Social power will inevitablyshift, oh wait, racism and race
are also social constructs.
So how can they be these sociallyconstructed things, but have these
inherently defined characteristics,like all of these pieces really
started to kind of zap Into myhead throughout graduate school.
Um, and so bringing in my racialbiography, bringing in, um, my work
(39:02):
history really helped kind of solidifythe need for The Spillway and to see
White people as full complex nuancedhuman beings, uh, who also need to
take care of ourselves and themselves.
Uh, in order to be productive and loving,full rich, nuanced humans in the world.
(39:30):
So this work is different.
Uh, this work is different than what we'reseeing in current social justice circles,
and that this focuses on preventativework and this focuses on harm reduction
in a way that focuses on healing ratherthan an education for White people.
This is a preventative method,uh, thinking about anti-racism,
(39:55):
um, for folks of Color, but thenharm reduction for White people.
Because as the second tenant, Iunderstand them as the second tenant
of critical race theory is interestconvergence, uh, with Derrick Bell
and that is, uh, that nothing.
In terms of racial justice, racial equityis going to happen unless White people
sign on board, um, White people have tounderstand that racism also impacts us.
(40:22):
And part of it is by itsability to completely eviscerate
our own humanity completely.
Um, and so through that, that asharm reduction for us, This is a harm
reduction service for White people.
And that service looks like listeningto this podcast, uh, communing with
(40:42):
the podcast, but also like sharing inthe community and the online spaces.
Um, as much as we can start.
And then from here trying to figureout what we can then build, if there's
additional things that we need to buildin order to start building a positive,
compassionate patient understandingand empathetic root not a branch,
(41:05):
not a tentacle, a root something.
That's going to stay within White culturebecause to me, White culture is already
incredibly textured and incredibly variedand massive, uh, and sometimes beautiful
(41:26):
and inspiring and sometimes terrifying.
Um, and.
And I just want to see a little bitmore emotional connectivity with that.
Yep.
Jenny (41:44):
If you could say one thing to White people right now, what, what would it be?
What would be the most importantthing at this moment that you
feel you need to say to them?
Loran (41:58):
Shit, Jenny, um, One thing?So much of White history, uh, and of
White ancestry is about fleeing pain.
A majority of White people in the uspinpoint to their family lineages and
(42:22):
look to Europe and say, we fled soemthing.
We were running from a hurt and we landedhere and we never fully acknowledged
that hurt and we kept running with that.
And what I want to say is come here,
just bring it there.
We'll just bring it right here.
(42:42):
You don't have to run anymore.
You don't have to flee anymore.
Bring it right here.
It's over.
You don't have.
You don't have to, the onlyreason that you would have to
as if you're not ready yet.
And when you're ready, we'regoing to be right here.
(43:03):
And maybe you're not ready today ortomorrow, but when you are, we're going
to greet you the exact same than wewould have if we were to greet you today
but we don't have to holdon to that pain anymore.
That intergenerational trauma that hurt.
The historical trauma that we hold,we didn't choose that for ourselves.
(43:29):
And so let's stop choosingit as an identity.
Let's stop choosing it as a personalitytrait because it's not serving those
around us and it's not serving us.
(43:50):
Yeah, totally
that's
Jenny (43:58):
lovely
Thank
Loran (43:59):
you.
Jenny (43:59):
You're
Loran (44:00):
fucking lovely.
Jenny (44:01):
You're fucking lovely.
Loran (44:01):
I'm so excited to do this with you, and now it's going to be on the fun.
I feel like,
Jenny (00:29):
I feel like we're.
Frodo and whoever
Loran (00:35):
Oh my god stop.
Jenny (00:36):
I don't know any of their names where they, you know, me and names where
they drop their ring into the fire.
And that's, we're on like a Tolkien quest
Loran (00:50):
that's
Jenny (00:51):
yes.
It's.
I mean, I'm not mad about it, but I.
Loran (00:58):
Um, I worked so hard on those.
Not that I made it, but then like Iworked with someone who worked so hard.
Jenny (01:08):
Okay.
What do I feel like we're in, um,uh, an episode of The Hours, not
an episode that was a movie perfectfor our guests, the hours where.
Virginia Woolf doesn't endup at the bottom of the Creek
with rocks in her pocket.
(01:30):
And Ed Harris, doesn't throwhimself out of the window.
And, you know,
Loran (01:36):
if there were one year that they could have given out two Oscars,
It should have been the year thatNicole Kidman lost to Halle Berry.
Cause they both deserved that Oscarevery time I think of Nicole Kidman,
I always just think, oh, you shouldhave gotten it from Moulin Rouge
and then I remember that that's theyear that Halle Berry one, I think.
Ah, yeah, if only we could have
Jenny (01:57):
Was she nominated for Moulin Rouge?
Little Loran was devastated thatshe lost to Halle Berry I mean,
she was so good.
Well, you know, me and myNicole Kidman problem, um,
Loran (02:10):
IRR regardless IRR regardless, regardless this.
Okay.
So I'm glad you brought up TheHours because it has Phillip
Glass who did the score for this
Jenny (02:21):
that's what I was.
That's why I was saying
Loran (02:23):
perfect.
Okay.
So it was like thinking about music.
And I was like, what has thislike incredibly repetitive theme?
And it's ostinato and that'slike what Phillip Glass does of
*hums ostinato rhythm*
Jenny (02:39):
It works so
Loran (02:40):
well
um, and I feel like that, causeit was like, what is Whiteness?
It's just like these themes that just keeprepeating over and over and over again.
Um, and so that's how I like went to this.
Amazing artist and it was like,Hey, I'm looking for a theme song.
That's like built on ostinato becausethat is Whiteness the same thing for
repeating over and over and over again.
(03:03):
And this beautiful person, BrianStevenson was like, oh, say less got it.
And he worked at this like reallytalented composer and he like came up
with all of this really amazing stuff.
Um, but now when I play it forpeople, they're like, whoa, the only
time I've ever heard ostinato is inthese like really epic film scores.
Jenny (03:28):
So that's one
Loran (03:32):
that's one, but then two also, like we're still, we're
talking about race and racism.
Like, we don't want this to belike, oh, Hey, this doesn't matter.
Right?
Like lo-fi hip hop, beat.
Jenny (03:46):
I mean, sorry.
Loran (03:49):
I put a lot of thought.
Jenny (03:51):
Yeah, I see that.
I don't, so I don't,
I guess when I hear my voice,I don't think ostinato or
deep, you know what I mean?
I feel like I hear like, What's thatthing on Instagram, that song like *sings
a jaunty circus-like carnival song.
Or maybe, like an ice-creamtruck* whatever that that song is.
(04:16):
Um, but I think it's, it's beautiful.
It is
Loran (04:21):
very lovely.
I think so, too.
Thank you.
I do.
I think we're just trying to in culturebuilding, this is, it's a huge task.
It's not some little tiny thing that we'retrying to shy away from it in some ways,
like, if we want to extend that metaphor.
Yes, we are trying to take this ring.
White supremacy and White shameand throw this into the fires of
Jenny (04:45):
release Gollum
from yeah.
Loran (04:50):
And yeah, like race and racism is some serious work no that's serious.
Yeah.
And I think we're also twovery silly people sometimes.
Gosh.
So yeah, I don't, I justdidn't want to make light no,
Jenny (05:09):
no.
And it definitely doesn't do that.
Um, it's definitely.
Oh,
*cackles* *lots of
laughs* oh,
(05:32):
I am my mother's daughter.
Bless her heart.
It
speaks to exactly what's at the heartof the matter, which is something.
That, like you said isrepeated over and over again.
And something.
That's going to take a lot ofwork and a lot of care and time
(05:57):
to rectify and it's a lofty goal.
And I don't think we're expectingourselves to fix it all.
But we're reaching towards making a wayso that others can join in the work and,
and together we can fix the problem.
(06:18):
Right.
A pretty huge
problem.
So I think it's perfect is what I'm trying to say.
Loran (06:27):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Cause I worked really hard on it.
*both laugh*
Jenny (06:32):
You didin't make it.
Loran (06:57):
I am a social worker by trade and by training and one of the very first
things that you learn on the groundrunning is you have to meet your clients
where they are not where you want themto be, not where they were, but where
they are walking through your door thatday, and it's going to change constantly.
(07:18):
And so you have to always be mindfuland always be present as to who and how.
Someone is showing up to, uh, becomemore happy, healthy, and productive
humans in this large co-created world.
And we're all defining that for ourselves.
We're defining that for our families, forour communities, for our neighborhoods
(07:39):
and the more clients were coming in,having conversations of race and racism.
I realized not only in.
The folks that I was serving, butalso within myself that these were
actually trauma responses that wewere having as White people talking
about race and racism, irritability,hostility, depression, anxiety,
(08:00):
shame, grief, reactions, feelings ofvulnerability, emotional detachment
these are trauma responses.
These are delayed emotional reactionsto trauma that we can get stuck in.
And yet the larger social narrativethat we were having around race and
racism is that White people are thetraumatizers not the traumatized.
(08:25):
So I was trying to figure outhow we reconcile these two pieces
until I began to understandPerpetrator Induced Traumatic Stress.
Uh, but then also intergenerational traumaand how that shows up in our bodies.
And so while we were founded onthe principle that hurt people
can hurt people, White people arehurting and our healing as possible.
(08:46):
We're really driven by the work of undoingtraumas, uh, the traumas of White people
and the traumas of the White experience,uh, and holding that trauma informed work.
Can have radical implications forhow we understand compassion, love,
(09:08):
empathy, understanding, and patience.
This work is not about creating excuses.
It's about better understanding whereWhite people are coming from so that
we're meeting people where they're at andinvesting in healing as prevention work.
Our society has created a fairlysolid single story narrative
(09:30):
about Whiteness and White people.
And it reinforces the desireto shame and isolate Whiteness
and White people and to that.
I simply ask is what we'redoing, actually working?
More White people voted for presidentTrump's make America great again, campaign
in 2020, than in 2016, and CRT becamethe wedge issue of the 2021 elections.
(09:55):
I'd argue that it's not workingand that new approaches are needed.
And when we say we, we mean Whitepeople here at The Spillway.
I am not trying to have this conversationwith anyone other than White people as
a White person, I need to stay and wantthis stay in my lane I'm not trying
(10:16):
to do, nor do I intend to tell folksof Color how to act, think, or behave.
These conversations andactions are for White people.
And because White organizing hashistorically been about maintaining
dominance, White people talkingwith other White people has
happened behind closed doors inback rooms or in secret societies.
(10:36):
And The Spillway is not that.
All of our materials method andpractice is freely available on our
social media channels and website.
And to break this theory down andthis action down, we're going to
have many teach-ins to explorethe underpinnings of The Spillway.
In the first season of The Spillwaypodcast, we're going to unpack
(10:57):
perpetration induced, traumaticstress, intergenerational trauma,
and the origins of The Spillway.
And we'll have longer episodes wherewe interview folks working through
their experiences of being White.
Sometimes that will look like thoughtleaders and scholars in the field.
And other times it will be ingroups of everyday White folks.
Just trying to make sense of thechanging world as White people, we
(11:20):
cannot fit the entire experience ofWhiteness and White culture into a
single season of The Spillway podcast.
If there's a specific or even generaltopic that you'd like to see addressed.
Explored or unpacked in seasontwo, don't hesitate to drop us
a line at info@thespillway.orgI N F o@thespillway.org.
(11:44):
That's a little bit of our roadmapand where we're headed in season one.
For now let's return to our inauguralchat where I'm joined with my
copilot, Jenny, and you can get toknow your crew for this journey.
(12:30):
I just got home from therapy and I wastelling me therapist, uh, about the
podcast and they're super excited about.
Um, but they were wanting toknow who we're talking to.
And so I was telling them some ofour guests and I was telling them
what one of them were saying aboutpreciousness and they stopped.
(12:53):
And they were like, Loran!
That is not the way that we talk aboutWhite people and racial justice at all.
White people are not precious.
Like that's the first thing you learn.
The very first thing that you.
Um, all of our work is about likeun- doing it and un- learning that.
(13:13):
And so here I am, I'm trying tomaybe push back on that a little bit.
Just a skoch um, I think we can geta little bit further with honey than
vinegar, and then I'm just trying tolike genuinely figure out why we're
building, uh, anti-racists movements.
(13:35):
on shame.
Like I get it, like, I think at its core,like I think I understand it of like,
yes, awful atrocities have happened.
Yeah.
And what future, what cultureare we actively trying to build?
And sometimes I think we get stuckin trying to address the hurts and
(13:55):
harms while also trying to address theinfrastructure of our relationships.
And I think that that'swhere if we didn't like lose.
The humanity of each other.
If we lose each, each of our individualpreciousness, not that one person is more
precious than the other, or one personhas more humanity than, than the other.
(14:16):
But if we're able to access that andactually say, oh yeah, we're doing
this because we're human because welove each other because at the very
core of your being is lovability.
Ooh, I like imagine what we could build
Jenny (14:31):
I guess too, you know, it's how do we do that while still
paying homage to our pain, right?
Like you want to, right?
Like, you don't want tonegate pain or suffering.
(14:51):
You want to honor it, which issomething that one guest also said.
Then, if you're not trulyhonoring your pain, you're lying
and you can't move forward.
So it's like, how do we do
both?
Loran (15:11):
The Resmaa Menakem quote that White people need to be doing this work
Black people need to be doing this work.
And we probably should not bedoing this in the exact same space
because we have to heal and to heal.
We've got attended to wounds.
That's our business andthat's no one else's business.
(15:32):
Um, part of the problem withWhite people is that we've
made it other people's business
And so one of the goals of The Spillwayis to make sure that we are making
sure that it's our business and we'renot making it other people's business,
that we're going to stay in our lane.
Right.
And we're going to do our healing workto make sure that we can support the
(15:53):
healing spaces for other folks too.
Yeah.
So in starting this podcastafter probably what was this?
Four or five months of startingThe Spillway on social media.
I realized very quickly thatpeople need to hear these ideas
(16:15):
and conversations in person.
Like there needs to be an actual,like a doing of the thing.
Um, rather than this kind of passive,oh, I just scrolled past your thing or
I like kind of get it, or I don't know.
Uh, there's this, there's a lotof seeing that's happening now.
We've got to do a lot of talking andthen we can go into the, do see hear
(16:35):
that kind of like learning model.
So I have asked one of my favoritepeople in the entire world.
She's ridiculously smart.
She is hilarious.
If you have an opinion aboutan author, She as well has
(16:56):
an opinion about that author.
She has probably read that author andcould maybe quote, a couple of good book
titles, uh, that you should be reading.
She has the heart of like awhale that gets massive and she
cares a great deal about me.
And so she has been incrediblypatient and compassionate in this
(17:18):
journey with me as I was like, HeyJenny, I want to help White people.
Jenny (17:26):
You want to do what?
Loran (17:29):
Uh, and so talking with her, uh, about race and racism
as two White people has been bothsuper, um, educational for me.
Um, but it's also changed the way thatI approach this work uh, especially
because they come from academiawhere everyone likes to talk in
14 syllable words and say, uh, youknow, 20 words when they could have
(17:54):
said one, just to say yes or no.
And Jenny loves to cutthrough the bullshit.
And so, uh, I also felt like it wasimportant to have Jenny here too,
because she's a bullshit cutter.
And we'll just say, I don'tknow that doesn't make sense.
I don't get that.
Don't do that.
Why are you doing that?
Uh, so it grounds me in thisreally lovely way and it also,
(18:17):
I think, elevates the work.
I think it elevates it becauseit makes it more accessible.
It makes it more approachable and itmakes it more personable because of that.
So really I should be thanking
you.
Um, but thank you for joining me so much
Jenny (18:36):
Thanks for having me.
It's very, it's an honor.
Loran (18:39):
Please tell me about this honor.
Jenny (18:41):
*both laugh* Tell me about the honor.
So essentially, so when youstarted this journey, I was like,
God dammit, like why this way?
Why?
But, um, the more that I,and I do care immensely about
you, so you could basically.
(19:03):
You know, anyway, we won't go therebecause it's inappropriate, but
Loran (19:07):
I'm going to go there.
Where are you gonna say,
Jenny (19:09):
I was gonna say you could basically shit in my hand and I'd be
like, oh my God, it's so beautiful.
But this is what that kind of minimizes.
Why we're here.
Um, the more I spoke to you about thiswork and the more you taught me about
social justice, I became aware of.
(19:31):
This piece of my life that was missing,um, this piece of understanding
that I didn't have and my abilityto be like, oh, I don't know.
I'm not saying I'm justnow don't see that.
And, uh, I think it happened a lottoo, when we were talking in terms
(19:52):
of your gender and gender in general,that's really where it started.
But then when you began on this pathto help White people and you founded
The Spillway and I was, you know,engaged in your work and we were
talking about it as it was happening,sort of in real time, uh, Uh, realized
how much I avoid discussions aboutrace and racism and real life.
(20:18):
You know, Instagram is one thing, butbeing an actual conversation about it,
because I had so much shame and self hateand, you know, ignorance about the history
of race and racism and, you know, myown, my own background as a White person.
And.
That I realized that, oh, Ire I really need this work.
(20:41):
Cause originally I was justgoing to support you because
you're you and I love you.
Um, but then I was like, ohno, but I need help help me!
So, um, and I believe in the message,you know, I also think the most
important piece for me was to take theresponsibility of White people healing
(21:03):
off of the doorstep of people, of Color
and into, into a space where it's,you know, like away from they've, they
don't need to be our healers, you know,they've had, they have enough and, and
are doing enough and it's our turn.
So to do our own work.
Loran (21:21):
Right.
And that was the only reason thatI felt that it was okay to start.
The Spillway was because of.
Folks of Color had said repeatedlyand have said repeatedly for decades,
if not centuries White people, Ineed you to start loving yourself.
Because once you love yourself,this was James Baldwin.
Once you start loving yourself, the"Black problem" so to speak goes
away, the existence of Blacknessgoes away because all that, that
(21:45):
was was, you're not loving yourself.
Right.
And then that turnsinto like Bayard Rustin.
What is loved can be cured love foryourself, fix that, fix that um, and
so, yeah, this is White people work.
This is the work thatWhite people have to do.
And I, and I think that that was the thingthat I kept hearing in social justice
spaces well White people have to do thework, White people have to do the work.
(22:08):
Okay.
Well, what was the work like?
You keep saying that, but thenlike, what are we supposed to do?
What are we supposed to do?
Because White people andanti-racism work a White people.
Are just supposed tokeep educating ourselves.
Education is supposed tobe this like silver bullet.
That's supposed to change everything.
(22:28):
Um, but then like, as we saw in 2020, whathappens after your book club ends or did
like, did people actually embody this?
Did people actually change theircommunities or their homes?
Their neighborhoods.
And I think in large part, no,because then look at what happened
a year later when we're lookingat the elections, uh, of school
(22:51):
boards and the conversation of CRT.
I think people went backto this like, oh, Nope.
I need to go back to safety,
uh, on this podcast, Jenny and Iare going to take us along on some
really, I think some fun interviews,some challenging interviews, um,
(23:12):
some sad interviews, um, but alsosome really, uh, engaging interviews.
And I think in order foryou, the listener to.
To be on this journey with usand for you to feel like, yeah,
we exist between your ears.
(23:33):
We want, we want to exist between yourheart to open within your heart too um,
so I thought I may be helpful for us tokind of locate ourselves, give a little
bit about like who we are, maybe share alittle bit of our racial origin stories.
Um, Because we're twovery different people.
We're very, very, very similar.
(23:54):
We're very, very different.
And that's what I think makesour relationship really lovely.
Um, so Jenny, I would love to hear kindof your racial origin story growing
up in Texas, and then moving to NewYork city in 2004, where we met each
other, um, that kind of gap between.
(24:19):
Uh, before 2004, who is that person?
Who are you?
Oh man.
* Jenny (24:25):
from Drop Dead Gorgeous* "Who are you?
It's a little game we play".
Um, so first of all, I'm White,which just want to point that out.
I'm from Texas born and raised,spent my formative years there.
(24:48):
My parents were in their latethirties, mid forties when they had me.
One of them is hails from Europe andthe other one came from the east coast.
From an Italian-American background.
(25:09):
So very, very different folksliving under one roof, just,
just to smidge I'm an only child.
So, and we didn't live near family.
So it was definitely a sort of a.
Time capsule of, of hurts and stuff.
(25:30):
There was a lot going on.
Um, in my memory, at least it wasn'tsuper happy, you know, childhood, but
in terms of, of what we're talkingabout though, I was raised to view
myself as, as an actual minority.
Hmm in the town that I lived in, Iwas raised to understand my place
(25:55):
in the world as a victim, not justracially, but in every aspect.
Loran (25:59):
What do you mean by every
Jenny (26:00):
aspect?
So if something wasn't happening theway that I thought it should, or the way
that somebody around me thought it shouldin regards to my advancement in life,
then it was because of someone else.
So, um, it wasn't just something thathappened or maybe I didn't put the
(26:22):
work in or whatever the case may be.
It was always because I wasn't seen assomeone who needed help or assistance.
Right, right.
Um, so at the same time though, I was,I was taught to not expect handouts.
Handouts it's in quotes to not expecthelp, to not ask for help, to, to
(26:46):
keep everything close to the vest.
I think the phrase was don'tair, our dirty laundry.
It was asked of me why I couldn't justshut up, you know, stuff like that.
So anyway, so you know, all of thatsort of informed how I viewed the world.
So with that lens in mind, whenI went into school, Race and
racism, uh, was presented in away that placed them in the past.
(27:10):
So they were taught in history classes.
And so we were, it was, the framing waslike, this happened a long time ago before
you were born for your parents were born.
So, you know, it's, uh, it was awfuland, you know, things were bad, but
now it's over so we can move forward.
And even though all ofthis is sort of going on.
(27:31):
I had most of my friends wereHispanic or, or people of Color I
think I had the whole, like, I don'tsee color thing maybe going on.
My, my worldview was super narrow.
So not only was I sort of likeprisoner to this house of three people
who didn't understand each other.
(27:52):
And there was a lot of turmoil, butI was also, you know, in a schooling
system that focused on race and racism.
As a past thing that happened.
And also, um, didn't reallytake a wider view of the world.
We had a lot of Texas history and so my,yeah, my view of life was super narrow.
(28:13):
It wasn't very nuanced.
That stuff didn't happen untilI moved to New York city.
Loran (28:19):
Yeah.
I definitely get better offeeling the colorblind lens.
Oh, my parents rockedthat one so hard, so hard.
I I'm White.
I grew up in Colorado and one ofthe earliest stories that I ever
heard about race actually camefrom an incident with my grandpa.
(28:39):
My dad was a basketball coachand before the kids came in the
picture, they were bringing someof the, uh, the basketball troop.
What are they called?
Basketball.
Thank you as a team, the team,
Jenny (28:56):
I love that you turned it into
theater.
Loran (29:03):
Troupe came over.
We're like, can we stayat your house, grandpa?
Uh, literally that's what happened?
Um, so my dad was bringing, uh,a basketball player over to.
Uh, their hometown, theylived like six hours away.
(29:24):
Um, and they were like comingin for a night or something and
they were like, oh, he just needsa place to stay for the night.
Cause we're here for thisconference or whatever.
And my grandpa was like,no, he can't stay here.
And then like why, whatare you talking about?
Oh, cause he's Black and I didn'treally, like, I didn't know
that about my grandpa until.
(29:46):
Uh, like my parents told me the story.
I just thought he was like thisreally angry curmudgeonly human,
who just likes hated everybody,
Jenny (29:55):
everybody.
It didn't matter every, yeah.
Loran (29:58):
Except for the dog.
Love for the dog.
Of tippy Joe tippy, Joe tippy, Joe.
Um, but just like hated people andspecifically like, didn't want this
Black person saying under his roof.
Um, and so it was this like storythat my parents told me to like, point
(30:18):
out that they were good White people.
What I was like, oh, I want to put thisroof over the Black person's head or I
want to show you that I am not my grandpa,or I'm like, "I'm not my dad" to kind of
like, create this distance of me, not him.
Um, but also this like,"oh times have changed."
Cause I remember thinking like,why would grandpa say that?
(30:39):
Like that's just bad.
That's racist grandpa.
That that was always the responsetimes are just different.
The times were just different than,uh, as if it was okay then right.
And with that, there was thereally intense kind of political
charge that ran through our family.
And I think a lot of thathappened to do with my dad having.
(31:01):
Fairly prominent public positionwith a local public school district.
And so our family was constantlyunder this microscope of what is
acceptable and what is not acceptable.
So we were, we were taught veryearly and very clearly you do not
see color, just don't see color.
Like that was just the, uh,the political thing to do was
(31:24):
to just see people as people.
But not as individualsif that makes sense.
There was, um, respect theirblanket, humanity, but not
their individual differences.
It was like holding that, but alsoat the same time, I'm holding that,
uh, within our family photo albums,there are family members in blackface.
(31:45):
And there are people laughingbecause you know, because
"it's just a different time."
Right?
And so holding these multitudes at thesame time left for this really kind
of confusing, but very clear, uh, kindof narrative that race and racism is
something you just don't talk about.
Um, or when you do you just say,oh, it doesn't happen anymore
(32:08):
because that's a different time.
It's like, oh, now that maybe it'snow that we're in the, there, it's
just going to be completely different.
And I'm like having these conversationsor not having these conversations,
uh, with family, both likeimmediate and extended and like,
uh, like intensely segregated area.
(32:30):
Like if you, there was a town andif you imagine a donut around the
town, Around the perimeter waswhere all of the White people lived.
Um, and then in inside thedonut, the donut hole is where
all of the folks of Color lived.
It was interesting that youwould like live in this like
predominantly White area.
And then when you were to go intotown to go to Walmart, to go to Kmart,
(32:52):
go to the movies, that's where youactually saw people who looked different
from you or looked differently.
And yes, it wasn't like acompletely like 50, 50 split.
Like the town that I, the neighborhoodthat I grew up in was like 60.
I looked at the demographics on thisthat's 65% White, 30% Hispanic, 5%
(33:14):
mixed race and 4% Native, Black orAsian, but then in the city was 44%
White, 49% Hispanic and 6% mixed race.
So it was almost like a switch.
So yeah, it was like we're havingthese conversations, but White
flight has also already occurred.
And so we now don't have tohave these conversations because
(33:35):
we've made it to be that way.
That was kind of my upbringing up to 2004.
I'm moving to New York and then everythingimmediately and rapidly changed.
Once you go and just stand on the cornerof 71st and Columbus for 30 seconds, you
see more and different people than you'veever seen before in your entire life.
(33:56):
And it's magical and important andtransformative and educational.
And.
humbling to have about18 year old going what?
The world looks like this,
there was this.
Really kind of peculiar moment thatI've had on my life that I don't
(34:18):
know if a lot of other White peoplehave shared, um, uh, for a very
long time, I worked at a nonprofit,uh, supporting LGBTQ young folks.
And for about, I want to say maybehalf of the time that I worked there,
I was the only White direct serviceprovider and the majority of our.
(34:38):
Clients and the young people thatcame through the doors, uh, we're
an, our youth of Color and so I hadthis really interesting and unique
experience of sometimes being theonly White person in the space.
And this would go on for months, if notyears, where I came to understand kind of.
(35:03):
But kind of preciousness thatcomes with being the only in
a space when it comes to race.
And there were times when.
I was asked to leave spaces because notbecause of who I am, but because of who
I represented or because who I remindedpeople of, or I would ask permission
to come into spaces because I knew thatit wasn't about me, but it was about
(35:26):
the color of my skin for some folksthat they just needed a healing space.
And actually just to not see a Whiteperson that day, because there had
been some pain that had happened.
Uh, there were also other timeswhere I got to be the spokesperson
for all the White people.
And they would say Loran,"why do White people...?"
Or "Loran, what are Whitepeople doing with..."
(35:48):
"Loran?
What are..., why are..., who are...,"and I would not trade that experience
for the world that it really White me.
Exist and live in my Whiteness in away that I could not hide from it.
I could not say, oh, no, I'm not WhiteI couldn't, I couldn't turn it off.
I couldn't live in this colorblind worldthat my parents had tried to raise me on.
(36:11):
I really had to lean into it.
And so it really uniquely situated me tosee a race in this very different way.
Um, but in that, uh, there were someWhite people that were on staff and we
would talk a lot about what it meantto be White uh, and what it meant to
be White and showing up at that space.
And we would use these, thatcredentialing, these words, these actions,
(36:33):
this rigidity, and thinking, um, sometimesto make it safe, to have conversations
and safe and, and air quotes here.
Um, because we wanted to make surethat we weren't hurting people.
Um, and sometimes hurting peoplemeant also like hurting ourselves.
Um, but we weren't naming that.
Yeah, we were just wanting to makesure that we were doing as much
(36:54):
work as we could on the outside tomake sure that we weren't hurting
folks of Color on the inside.
Um, but to do that, we were completelyburning ourselves at both ends, um,
to make sure that we were like beingthe good White as much as possible.
And it was fucking exhausting.
It was exhausting.
(37:14):
Um, because I didn't think aboutmy own humanity in the process.
Right.
I was so wrapped up in another person'shumanity, um, that I didn't care about me.
And so it wasn't sustainable.
And in that, if it's not sustainable,then it's actually not justice.
Right.
Jenny (37:30):
Right.
Also like, who is it serving?
Loran (37:32):
Right.
Who was it actually serving?
And then is it, oh, are youjust doing this out of guilt?
Right.
That that's really where The Spillwaycame in and that I kept hearing.
No, no, no, no, no Whitepeople will always be racist.
Always, always, always be racist.
And it didn't make sense to me because Ididn't know what we're fighting for then.
Because I kept on this one side seeing,uh, me being this, this quest to be the
(37:56):
good White person where it wasn't causingany harm to any person of Color ever.
But I was completely negatingmyself and then thinking, oh, wow,
it's always going to be this way.
It will forever be this way.
And then I found out that White people aregoing to become a racial minority by 2045.
(38:17):
And then that really hit me twice ofwell, wait, then it can't be that way.
Because what happens when thereare more folks of Color in the U.S.
Than there are White people than howwe're like defining racism as power plus
discrimination, uh, racial discriminationequals racism and social power will shift.
(38:37):
Social power will inevitablyshift, oh wait, racism and race
are also social constructs.
So how can they be these sociallyconstructed things, but have these
inherently defined characteristics,like all of these pieces really
started to kind of zap Into myhead throughout graduate school.
Um, and so bringing in my racialbiography, bringing in, um, my work
(39:02):
history really helped kind of solidifythe need for The Spillway and to see
White people as full complex nuancedhuman beings, uh, who also need to
take care of ourselves and themselves.
Uh, in order to be productive and loving,full rich, nuanced humans in the world.
(39:30):
So this work is different.
Uh, this work is different than what we'reseeing in current social justice circles,
and that this focuses on preventativework and this focuses on harm reduction
in a way that focuses on healing ratherthan an education for White people.
This is a preventative method,uh, thinking about anti-racism,
(39:55):
um, for folks of Color, but thenharm reduction for White people.
Because as the second tenant, Iunderstand them as the second tenant
of critical race theory is interestconvergence, uh, with Derrick Bell
and that is, uh, that nothing.
In terms of racial justice, racial equityis going to happen unless White people
sign on board, um, White people have tounderstand that racism also impacts us.
(40:22):
And part of it is by itsability to completely eviscerate
our own humanity completely.
Um, and so through that, that asharm reduction for us, This is a harm
reduction service for White people.
And that service looks like listeningto this podcast, uh, communing with
(40:42):
the podcast, but also like sharing inthe community and the online spaces.
Um, as much as we can start.
And then from here trying to figureout what we can then build, if there's
additional things that we need to buildin order to start building a positive,
compassionate patient understandingand empathetic root not a branch,
(41:05):
not a tentacle, a root something.
That's going to stay within White culturebecause to me, White culture is already
incredibly textured and incredibly variedand massive, uh, and sometimes beautiful
(41:26):
and inspiring and sometimes terrifying.
Um, and.
And I just want to see a little bitmore emotional connectivity with that.
Yep.
Jenny (41:44):
If you could say one thing to White people right now, what, what would it be?
What would be the most importantthing at this moment that you
feel you need to say to them?
Loran (41:58):
Shit, Jenny, um, One thing?So much of White history, uh, and of
White ancestry is about fleeing pain.
A majority of White people in the uspinpoint to their family lineages and
(42:22):
look to Europe and say, we fled soemthing.
We were running from a hurt and we landedhere and we never fully acknowledged
that hurt and we kept running with that.
And what I want to say is come here,
just bring it there.
We'll just bring it right here.
(42:42):
You don't have to run anymore.
You don't have to flee anymore.
Bring it right here.
It's over.
You don't have.
You don't have to, the onlyreason that you would have to
as if you're not ready yet.
And when you're ready, we'regoing to be right here.
(43:03):
And maybe you're not ready today ortomorrow, but when you are, we're going
to greet you the exact same than wewould have if we were to greet you today
but we don't have to holdon to that pain anymore.
That intergenerational trauma that hurt.
The historical trauma that we hold,we didn't choose that for ourselves.
(43:29):
And so let's stop choosingit as an identity.
Let's stop choosing it as a personalitytrait because it's not serving those
around us and it's not serving us.
(43:50):
Yeah, totally
that's
Jenny (43:58):
lovely
Thank
Loran (43:59):
you.
Jenny (43:59):
You're
Loran (44:00):
fucking lovely.
Jenny (44:01):
You're fucking lovely.
Loran (44:01):
I'm so excited to do this with you, and now it's going to be on the fun.
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