The Whites of the Round Table: Lynn Burnett, Jared Karol, & Jill Nagle

What does it mean to work to be White while working to end White supremacy and shame cultures?

Loran and Jenny sit down with Lynn Burnett (Founder, CrossCulturalSolidarity.com and The White AntiRacist Ancestry Project), Jared Karol (Founder, JaredKarol.com and author “A White Guy Confronting Racism”), and Jill Nagle (Founder, Evolutionary Workplace and acclaimed author) to talk about working with other White people in conversations of racial equity.

Who's are these Whites of the Round Table?

Lynn Burnett is a former high school history teacher, and the founder of CrossCulturalSolidarity.com and the White Antiracist Ancestry Project. At Cross Cultural Solidarity, he has built over 100 racial justice history resources, and aims to turn the site into a place where people can plug into the entire universe of racial justice history. The premise of the White Antiracist Ancestry Project is that it will be easier to mobilize masses of White people for racial justice if they have powerful and inspiring examples of White antiracism to guide and inspire them. Based on that premise, the project aims to mainstream essential stories and lessons from White antiracist history.

Jared Karol is the founder of JaredKarol.com, a consulting firm specializing in guiding White people to confront racism and be unapologetic antiracists. As a trusted advisor, he guides executives, people managers, and dedicated change agents at Fortune 500 companies, startups, and nonprofits. A sought-after professional speaker, panel moderator, leadership coach, and facilitator of difficult conversations, Jared’s storytelling approach inspires and influences individuals and groups worldwide. His first book, A White Guy Confronting Racism: An Invitation to Reflect and Act, was released in November, 2021. An avid reader, accomplished musician, and active meditator, he lives with his family in the San Francisco Bay Area. 

Jill Nagle has been published or reviewed more than 150 times in the genres of business, personal growth, fiction, nonfiction, poetry, and social commentary, including American Book Review, The Women’s Review of Books, Zendeskblog, and many more. She founded Evolutionary Workplace, and Wisdom of The Body: Beyond Talk Therapy, and cofounded Awake Parent Perspectives. She is a regular contributor to AfroSap-ee-o-file, and you can see her Medium.com articles with a link in our show notes . With Dr. Cleo Muh-nah-go, she co-facilitates the 22nd Century Leaders program for white anti-racist leaders, whose next cohort starts in September 2022.

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During the...

Episode Transcript

Jenny (00:01):
How boring would that be?

Loran (00:04):
That one really damaged us.
Huh?
Happily ever after?

Jenny (00:06):
Oh, God don't even get me started.
I mean, you can get mestarted if you want.
We'll be here for a while.
So buckle in.

Loran (00:15):
Right.
Yeah.
And
I think about every single closerelationship that I've been
in, there has been conflict

Jenny (00:22):
'cause that's life, but we were raised to be like, "okay, well
there's conflict in this relationship.
So that means it's no good."

Loran (00:30):
Yeah.
Conflict helped me understand myselfbetter, but that was only, I think part
of that too, as though that like, Iwanted to understand the conflict more
and my actions and how they contributed.
And co-created a reality inwhich that conflict could occur.

Jenny (00:47):
I'm laughing.
Not because what you just said is like,you are probably the only person who
was like, "I actively wanted to gotowards the fire and figure out how it
started while it was still on fire."

Loran (01:02):
Yeah.
I mean...

Jenny (01:05):
it's burnt you a couple of times, but also

Loran (01:08):
Keeps my therapist busy.

Jenny (01:10):
Keeps your-- bless, bless that human's heart.

Loran (01:15):
Bless.

Jenny (01:16):
Blessings no take backs.
No, but it's true.
You grow.
I mean, I don't think it's the onlyway you can grow in a relationship
is perfect, but it's a veryimportant part of how we learn.

Loran (01:31):
Yeah.
It is.
It is like, even think about likelove languages and how I didn't even
know that they were love languagesuntil I had to use that exact
language of like, "oh, this feels.
Weird that the language that I'm using,isn't landing for you in the same way."
And then that's when partnershave been like, "oh no, this is
the way that I express my love."

(01:53):
And I think it's the same thingwhen we're in conflict of like,
"oh, wait, I feel like I'm receivingthis in a different or weird way.
Is that actually conflict or are youjust expressing yourself in ways that
feel normal or like natural to you?"

Jenny (02:06):
Right.
And how am I receiving your information?

Loran (02:10):
I dated an Italian once.
They were so loud, so loud and Ialways felt like I was being yelled at.

Jenny (02:20):
Oh really?
I wonder who else is Italianand loud in your life?

Loran (02:24):
Hi, Jenny!

Jenny (02:26):
It was not me, by the way.

Loran (02:30):
No, it wasn't.
It was not you.
I had to say this person's like,"um, uh, I wasn't intending for the
conversation to, to go to this likereally heightened or like elevated place."
And they were like, "whatare you talking about?"
And it was like, "I just feel likeyou're yelling at me right now.
Um, you're just being very loud."
And then that's when I like.

(02:50):
I literally got like the Italian hand.

Of like (02:52):
"I'm Italian
I will smack you.
And that is my symbol of love,"but all like not all Italians are
going to smack you as their symbolof love, but that's just like, what
this really lovely human was saying.

Jenny (03:06):
Right?
Like, this is, this is how I respond.
Yeah.
Right, right.
Oh my,

Loran (03:15):
How did we get here?

Jenny (03:16):
I don't know!
We kind of, we went
on a, we went on a journey and weended up in relationship, which is
what we're talking about anyway.

Loran (03:25):
Right.

Jenny (03:26):
Because I think this is the first time--well, no, it is the first time that
we've had more than one other person.
So that changes the dynamic too.
Like how are we goingto talk to each other?
Like, whoa, what does that look like?
What are we, you know,

Loran (03:42):
well, I think too, there's this thing that White people do
when we get together of, especiallylike, especially the White
Liberals, we love to get together.
And then whoever says the, likethe, the most shaming thing.

(04:03):
Other White people are so quickto be like, "yes, absolutely.
Yes, yes, yes."

Jenny (04:07):
Right.

Loran (04:08):
And really try to double down on it.
Uh, and I feel like that's justpart of the shame culture that
we're so deeply invested in of.
"Oh, let me also shame White peopleso that the attention is not on me.

Jenny (04:20):
Right?
Like "I'm going to line up behindthis person, so you can't see me."

Loran (04:25):
Right.
"I will be in a perfect cutout,the perfect silhouette cutout.
So you cannot see me at all because,

Jenny (04:30):
"so you can't see me at all so that you, so that if you do know
I'm there, you know, that I'm on therights, the right side of things."

Loran (04:38):
Right.
And so I'm so excited to be in a room fullof White people that acknowledge this that
are going to be like, "actually, we're notgoing to use shame in this conversation."
What are we supposed to call this?
Like I was thinking of like"White people doing the work".

Jenny (04:58):
What about like something like, so it's, uh, so it's, we're
kind of going around in a circle,

Loran (05:05):
Like a focus group?

Jenny (05:06):
Like a focus group...

Loran (05:08):
Like a White people's focus group?

Jenny (05:09):
Like a White people's focus group, but that sounds kind of clinical.

Loran (05:15):
Hello?

Jenny (05:16):
Hello?
Where a White people focus group.
What about my God?
Whites of the round table?

Loran (05:26):
I hate you so much.
"The Whites of the Round Table"

Jenny (05:36):
I hate me too.
It's okay.

Loran (05:38):
Wow.

Jenny (05:39):
I mean, right though?

Loran (05:42):
What is the story?
It's the King Arthur's like court, right?

Jenny (05:45):
You're asking the wrong
person.

Loran (05:47):
With Sir Lancelot?
I don't know the Alamo so, but yes.
Yep.
Camelot?
This is what this is all about?
Yeah.

Jenny (05:56):
This is all about Camelot and The Sword and the Stone
is also a part of that story.
So we're coming back to Disney.
You're welcome.

Loran (06:06):
You are a gift.
You are a gift and a treasure.

Jenny (06:09):
Oh, just here to serve

Loran (06:33):
hello and welcome to The Spillway podcast.
I'm Loran

Jenny (06:37):
and I'm Jenny.

Loran (06:38):
We believe three things hurt.
People can hurt people,

Jenny (06:41):
White people are hurting

Loran (06:42):
and our healing is possible.

Jenny (06:45):
This is a podcast devoted to understanding the complex nature of
living as White people in America,

Loran (06:51):
without
supremacy or shame.
A few months ago, I started anorganization, The Spillway around
supporting White people to work throughperpetrator-induced, traumatic stress
PITS, and intergenerational trauma.
I offer this service with theacknowledgement that healing work is
merely one mechanism within a largernetwork required to sustain our collective
movement towards racial justice.

(07:12):
I seek to grow services availablerather than redistribute, where we put
our efforts in funding and to get thismessage out there, I've asked one of the
most compassionate ferociously tender,hilarious, and incredibly smart humans
right now, Jenny, to join me in thispodcasting journey, Jenny and I come
from similar yet separate backgrounds.
Importantly, we offer incredibly differentperspectives sometimes just by who we

(07:34):
are as people and other times may by thevery different identities that we hold.

Jenny (07:38):
We are committed to building compassion, understanding, empathy,
and patience into the present andfuture of Whiteness and White culture.
We cannot change the past, butwe can change the future through
the actions we take today.

Loran (07:53):
We seek to embody the work of James Baldwin, Sonya Renee Taylor,
Kazu Haga, Resmaa Menakem and KaiCheng Thom and countless others
asking for White people to, in somany words, get our shit together.
Since starting The Spillway.
There's been consistent feedbacksometimes within the same space
that White people are engaging.
This work with closedhearts and closed minds.

Jenny (08:16):
This work can be difficult and beautiful.
It is an exercise in vulnerability andunlearning perfectionism with real world
consequences in an age of seven, secondjudgments, we hope The Spillway and our
living in it can give others the couragethat is needed to join us in this work.

Loran (08:34):
We know that attempting to be vulnerable and consenting to learn in
public is incredibly terrifying work.
And yet we have to start somewhere.
Conversations of race and racism.
Aren't going away anytime soon and givenour incredibly different places in the
world, we're trying to create a middleground where White people can talk
together and create action around theparadox of being White in the U S where

(08:56):
we are simultaneously the perpetratorsand the victims of race and racism.

Jenny (09:01):
We seek to embody the work of countless activists of Color who have
been calling White folks to seek ourown healing around race and racism.
So here are.
Two White people committing to thework of individual and collective
healing around race and racism forWhite people, healing ourselves.
It's no one's responsibility, but our ownlet's heal together and grow to stop the

(09:22):
impacts of race and racism in the livesof people of Color and our lives as well.

Loran (09:28):
Welcome to our podcast.

Jenny (09:36):
Lynn Burnett is a former high school history teacher and the founder
of Cross Cultural Solidarity.comand the White Anti-Racist Ancestry
Project at Cross Cultural Solidarity.
He has built over 100 racial justicehistory resources, and aims to
turn the site into a place wherepeople can plug into the entire

(09:56):
universe of racial justice history.
The premise
of the White Anti-Racist AncestryProject is that it will be easier to
mobilize masses of White people forracial justice if they have powerful
and inspiring examples of Whiteanti-racism to guide and inspire them.
Based on that premise, the project aimsto mainstream essential stories and

(10:21):
lessons from White anti-racist history.

Loran (10:24):
Jill Nagle has been published or reviewed more than 150 times in
the genres of business, personalgrowth, fiction, nonfiction poetry, and
social commentary, including AmericanBook Review, the Woman's Review of
Books, Zendeskblog, and many more.
She founded Evolutionary Workplaceand Wisdom of the Body: Beyond

(10:45):
Talk Therapy and the co-foundedAwake Parent Perspectives.
She is a regular contributor toAfroSapiophile and you can see her
on Medium.com with those articlesand a link on our show notes with Dr.
Cleo Manago.
She facilitates the 22nd CenturyLeaders Program for White
anti-racist leaders whose nextcohort starts in September, 2022.

(11:09):
And last but not least is Jared Karol,who is the founder of Jared Karol.com
a consulting firms specializing inguiding White people to confront racism
and be unapologetic anti-racists.
As a trusted advisor, he guidesexecutives, people, managers, and
dedicated change agents at Fortune 500companies, startups and nonprofits.

(11:29):
He is a sought after professional speakerpanel moderator, leadership coach and
facilitator of difficult conversations.
Jared's storytelling approachinspires and influences
individuals and groups worldwide.
His first book, "A White Guy ConfrontingRacism: An Invitation to Reflect
and Act" was released in November,2021, an avid reader accomplished

(11:51):
musician and active meditator.
He lives with his family inthe San Francisco bay area.
Folks who are listening in.
I don't really know what theamazingness that I gotta see right now.
And so it may be helpfulfor us to actually situate
your name with your voice.
That way we know who's talking.

(12:13):
So I'm going to maybejust throw this out there.
There's like a little popcorn question,just so we can get names with voices.
Um, but if you could introduceyourself in the ways that you like
to introduce yourself, but then alsoif you could add the work that you
do, but if you could tell us as ifit were a Hollywood blockbuster movie

(12:34):
title or tagline, what would that be?

Jared Karol (12:38):
Okay.
Alright I'll go first.
I'll go first.
This is, this is Jared Karol.
He him pronouns callin in from Oakland.
California.
The 510, for people, uh, unfamiliar.
Um, and I work with White folks.
Really, my specialty is facilitatingconversations as holding space for
people to have the conversation.

(12:59):
Um, and gosh, if I were to put atagline, which is interesting because
I'm actually preparing for a TEDx talkand I have to kind of come up with like
the title of my talk and it's going tobe something taken off of the Lao Tzu
quote, "if you want to awaken all of,uh, humanity awaken all of yourself.
So something around that, itprobably won't be that exactly,

(13:20):
but something around that idea ofto do this work, uh, you have to
really do the work on yourself,which I have been doing for decades.
As I imagine, all of us have been
That's really lovely, Jared.
Thank you.
Welcome.

Jill Nagle (13:37):
I'm Jill Nagle.
My company is Evolutionary Workplace and
I help White people dismantle Whitesupremacy from the inside out.
And often that involves helpingthem find their own superpower
that they weren't aware of becausenot everybody can or should try

(13:57):
to do this work in the same way.

Loran (14:01):
That's a really lovely way to put that.
Thank you.
Welcome Jill.

Lynn Burnett (14:05):
Hi, my name is Lynn Burnett.
He/him, East Bay, California, and Irun a website called Cross-Cultural
Solidarity.com, uh, which has over ahundred racial justice history resources.
And I'm hoping to build that into alanding place for people to plug into the
whole universe of racial justice history.
And I'm also building a project calledthe White Anti-Racist Ancestry Project.

(14:29):
And the basic premise of that projectis that it will be easier for us
to mobilize masses of White people.
If there are powerful and inspiringexamples of what truly excellent
White anti-racism looks like.
So I'm not sure how to put it in theHollywood form, but that's what I'm up.
That's what I'm up to.

Loran (14:46):
Thank you.
And welcome.
Why don't we just jump in with someof these questions and make this as
conversational as we want it to be?
Uh, this is such a lovely, I just feelsuch a welcoming and excited presence to
be here, to talk about, uh, Whiteness andhow we are White people showing up doing
the work of dismantling White supremacyand being in fellowship with each other.

(15:10):
I'm wondering with you folks, whatdoes, or do you feel a sense of
community with other White people?
And if so, where are we feeling that?
Or where are we trying tofind that kind of connection?

Jill Nagle (15:22):
I feel some of it right here.
Um, I don't know you so much, Loran,and you Jenny, and by the way, I'm
also, um, Ohlone land in Oakland.
Ohlone land AKA
Oakland, but, um,

Loran (15:36):
Do you hear that echo?
Yeah, we heard it too.
Hi everyone.
It's Loran here about two weeks afterrecorded this conversation, but for
some context, I emailed Jill, Jared,and Lynn the pitch for this episode
on a Monday, what you're listeningto happened only four days later.
Given the short turnaround time, Lynnended up going over to Jill's house

(15:57):
to have a quieter space, which ismore conducive to podcast recording.
Jill and Lynn are physically inthe same room during this otherwise
largely virtual conversation.
This echo is going to go away.
It just took a couple ofminutes to figure out the audio
logistics, but even re-hearing it.
Now I love this echo because it remindsme of the tremendous gift that it is to

(16:19):
be in the same physical spaces, buildinga movement of social equity and justice.
Let's return to the conversation.

Jill Nagle (16:27):
When I started doing this pro cultivators or White anti-racist series,
Jared and Lynn were two of the firstpeople that I found that I reached out to.
And they said, "yes".
And I was so excited and I started gettingto know both of them for a little while.
I was meeting with Jared informally, thecafe, and we would talk about this stuff.

(16:47):
And I'd like to re-up that.
Like for Lynn and Jared to meet eachother since we're all in the same
place, but those things have meanta tremendous amount to me because
I've been at this a long time, youknow, a few decades ago when I first
started talking about this, I couldn'ttalk to other White people about it.
Even my best friends,they would get defensive.

(17:08):
They would start to say, "oh,Jill's got, her little cause you
know, kind of, oh, you know," alittle bit of kind of patronizing
or condescending distancing there.
I, I couldn't get anyoneinterested and to me.
It was such a vital issue.
And so to have other White people whocare and not, not only care, but are
building such a significant portionof their lives around this feels,

(17:31):
extremely validating and welcoming to me.
Um, so yes, like these folks hereand some others too have really felt
like necessary community for me.

Jared Karol (17:44):
Yeah, Jill
and, uh, Loran, I love that.
I love the, just the question, youknow, do we find community with,
you know, with other White folks?
I'll say that not, no, not necessarily,but not, not, not, not, not.
And what I mean by that is this ideaof, you know, when we talk about like
belonging, you know, and you know,Brené Brown, um, I've been influenced

(18:07):
by her a lot in, in my work in general.
And especially my anti-racist work,this idea like to, to belong, we have
to belong to ourselves first and reallylike, know who we are, you know, why
we care, why we're doing what we'redoing, you know, all that stuff.
So I feel like I'm pretty solidon, on that, but I'm sure we'll get
into, you know, in this conversation.
And so it's less about, youknow, where are the White
people to be in community with?

(18:28):
It's about, here's whatI, here's who I am.
And here's what I'm about.
And there's so many differentcommunities that I'm in professional,
social, athletic, musical.
I mean, there's just a lot ofdifferent communities that are, some
are all White, some are mixed someare, you know, they're just, they're
they're, they are what they are.
And so I look at it as like, youknow, if you're interested in these

(18:54):
conversations, like let's talk about itand if you're not, then that's okay too.
But.
If you're not and you're opposed toit, or you have something that's going
against my values or, or, you know,the communities that I'm trying to
create, then, you know, then we'llhave a different kind of conversation.
So it's less about really forme, like seeking community and
trying to find communities.
But it's like when I dohave it, like, it's awesome.

Lynn Burnett (19:16):
I think like many people, I have a desire for stronger community and
kind of coming out of the COVID moment.
It's feeling really alive forme that I want to, you know, do
some rebuilding of community.
When I worked with different Whiteanti-racist groups around the
country, that's something thatfeels alive in pretty much every
organization that I work with.

(19:38):
There's a desire for stronger community.
As for community with White peoplespecifically, it feels important for
me to have White anti-racist community.
And it also feels important forme to have to be in community.
With other White people who are notnecessarily organizing their lives

(19:58):
around strong anti racist commitments.
No, both of those things feel importantto me right now and say there's a core,
maybe half dozen people who are Whitefolks who I really connect with strongly
who I really trust or really admire whoI feel a deep bond of connection with.
And even if we only see each otheronce, you know, once or twice a
year, I feel like that's kind of mylocal community or the core of it.

(20:22):
And then I also feel a sense ofcommunity of White anti-racist community.
Nationally.
Like every time I'm working withgroups across the country, even if
I only see those groups or thosepeople, like one time, I have a sense
that I'm in community with them.
Like we're in this together.
Even when things get difficult or gettense or people aren't necessarily on

(20:44):
the same page or people are giving eachother pushback or whatever's happening.
Like, I feel like that's alsopart of being in community.
Like I feel like even at the nationallevel, I feel like, um, the world
of White anti-racism, I almost feellike we're in a village together.
It's kind of like when you'rein a village, you have to figure
out how to work together andget along together in some way.

(21:04):
So I've had moments like during workshopswhere I'm kind of like, "alright, there's
like some moment of disagreement orsome tension, but we're still here."
Still in community sowork let's work together.
And then I also have this desire toreturn to community with White people
who are not necessarily steeped in astrong White anti-racist commitment.
I used to have that in a spiritualcommunity, but because I had

(21:26):
some political disagreementswith that community, I left
during the Trump administration.
And I have yet to I've yet torebuild a strong sense of community
with White people who might just befocused on other things in their life.
And that feels importantthat I do that as well.

Jenny (21:41):
Why does it?
Why,
why does it in particular feelimportant to you to have that?

Lynn Burnett (21:47):
It feels to me like it's important for me just to, I'm
trying to think of how to say this.

Jenny (21:54):
Is it more on like a personal level or is it, is it also
connected to the work that you do?

Lynn Burnett (22:00):
It's connected to the work that I do, but not in such a way where
I'm like trying necessarily, it doesn'tfeel important for me to be around.
Just let's just say, ordinary White folks,because I want to help move them in.
It's not about that.
It's more like just being present, justbeing present with, with people who don't
necessarily share all of my commitmentsand being in community with them, not

(22:23):
for the sake of any strategy or, ormoving them, but, but almost just for
the sake of me being able to, to, to becomfortable with and to be in connection
with, um, just the, the broader experienceof how White people are showing up in
the world and what their experiences

Jenny (22:40):
yeah.
To, to reach out into an experiencethat maybe you don't know anything
about or feel connected to.
Um, I think that's really importantjust in life in general, to not only be
attracted to things that we agree with.
Um, and people that wecompletely agree with.
Um, one of our other guests was talkingabout being willing to be in conflict

(23:04):
with others, um, in, in a supportive,you know, environment, um, is, is
really important in building community.
And I think that I was attractedto what you were saying.
Cause I felt like that was kind of, um,

Jared Karol (23:19):
yeah, Jenny, me too.
And I'm glad you're saying thatbecause Lynn, um, I've been
heavily influenced-- it feels likeforever, but it's just last summer.
I read this thin volume by Adrienne MareeBrown called "We Will Not Cancel Us."
Yeah, I see some head nods and it, itreally gets at what you said, Lynn,
and then what you were just kind ofsupporting that Jenny, the idea of.

(23:39):
Just because we're, you know, we're all,whatever in this work together, we all
come at it from, and even in these, inour opening kind of statements, right.
We we've kind of, I've felt we'reall coming at it for different
reasons and at different angles, withdifferent skillsets and different.
Uh, you know, kind of hows and whysand all these things, and that's like,

(24:01):
how, how, how would it be otherwise?
And so I think there's sometimesthis dogma of like, wait a second,
you're doing it slightly a littlebit different than I'm doing it.
Or then I would like todo it and that's wrong.
And so in this book, she talksabout like, basically what you
said, Lynn like, wait a second.
Is that really the, the, theconversation we want to be having.

(24:23):
There's so much opportunity to buildcommunity, to build movements across
differences and bridge differences,where there's so much more we can do
together with all our different anglesand skill sets and, and et cetera.
So that really resonated with me.

Jenny (24:37):
Yeah.
We talk a lot.
Well, at least this first season, we'vehad a lot of, um, discussions of other
guests and with each other, uh, Loran andI about how prevalent cancel culture is
within the White anti-racist movement.
How do we make space for White people toheal in racial equality work with that?

(25:02):
Or, you know, is it, is it even necessary?
Which I think it is, but, um, I'minterested to know what you guys think.

Jill Nagle (25:09):
I think it paints a
lot of paradoxes.
And to me, the wonderful thing abouta paradox is that it is an apparent
contradiction and apparent contradictionis not a real contradiction.
So there's apparently a contradictionbetween doing anti-racist work
and centering White people.

(25:32):
And for me, the way to look at this isthat centering White P-- there's different
stages, different levels of the work.
And so if somebody says, "Hey, I wantto create a series about anti-racism,"
and somebody says, "well, whatabout racism against White people?"
In the sort of knee-jerkreactionary unexamined way?

(25:53):
That's an example of centeringWhite people that takes away.
From dismantling White supremacytakes away from anti-racist work.
And I think when people say"centering Whiteness," they're often
talking about that sort of thing.
However, there's another stage whereWhite people who get into this work.

(26:14):
If you get it, you start towade in a little bit and you go,
"whoa, racism impacts me too.
I've been brainwashed.
I've been culturated to these thingsthat are just as much a part of
perpetuating problem as stoppingviolence against Black and Brown people."
Something had to happen to DerekChauvin for him to be able to

(26:37):
commit such a grisly murder.
What happened to him?
That's where I think, um, centeringWhiteness comes in when we center
it in order to examine and repair.
The damage that's been done to Whitepeople that could allow them that
could create the conditions thatthe psyche, the psychic mindsets

(26:59):
that would produce such violence.
And in order to do that, we need to makespace for, for example, White tears.
There's a paradox because in onecircumstance, White tears could
endanger Black and Brown bodiesand another, in a safe space.
White tears may be exactly what'snecessary for a White person to heal

(27:20):
from the trauma that could enablesuch violence in the first place.

Jenny (27:24):
Right.
That's something we've, we've talkedabout a lot also because, you know,
I'm hyper aware of White women tears.
Right.
Um, and we talk about that a lotbecause I cry literally all the time.
Loran and I have just about anything.
It doesn't, you know, whateverit is, I'm crying, Loran and
I have known each other for.
Decades, and this is just true, but nowI'm hyper aware of when I feel emotional

(27:50):
and it is all about context, right?
Like if I'm in a space and my tears aregoing to negatively affect, uh, affect
people of Color, that's different thanif I'm in the space with you guys.
And I'm explaining how I feel grief overwhat something I did or something that
happened, um, related to race and racism.

(28:11):
So it is, I think I agree with you.
I think it's a context thing.

Jared Karol (28:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think, um, I mean, evenbefore you just said that I wrote
down "context is everything."
So maybe some of you have readMichelle Kim's book, uh, "The Wake
Up" and she lives in Oakland too.
She's a, um, she's a 5-1-0.
Um, and she's awesome.
So if you don't follow her on LinkedIn andother places, you know, please do, and her

(28:35):
book is great and it's so multi facetedand dimensional and awesome in many ways.
But one thing she emphasizes is justthat that context is, is everything.
I think sometimes the question, you know,is there, is there, should there be, or.
How is healing for White people,like, uh, you know, a thing?
Or necessary?
Like, absolutely.
And it's, it's within, you know,it's the context in which that is,

(28:59):
uh, you know, achieved or workedtowards is, is, is really important.
Something I've been thinking about,especially more lately, like, uh, that
it is about like my own healing, butnot in like a narcissistic egoistic way,
but like kind of what more towards whatJill was trying to capture, like how
do I heal so that I can show up moreconsistently, more effectively, more

(29:24):
genuinely authentically, et cetera.

Lynn Burnett (29:26):
And I think the thing that I want to lift up is that.
You know, if you're a White person andyou're wrestling with experiences of
guilt or shame or feeling embarrassed orbeing worried that you're racist or being
worried that people will perceive you asracist, or if you're feeling defensive.
Um, or if you have fear, you know,anxiety around Black and Brown people,

(29:48):
or if you're turning on Fox news andyou're feeling, you know, a fear reaction
to the narratives, there, like, noneof that is a positive life experience.
You know, like all of that is takingaway from you having a beautiful life.
So I feel like there'shealing to do there.
But the other thing I want to say isthat in terms of showing up for the

(30:11):
movement, in terms of building a beautifulworld, that works for all of us, like
the movement needs us to have vibrant.
Strong spirits.
The movement needs us to haveclarity and energy and a spirit
of connection and solidarity.
And it's only when we work through theguilt and the shame and the things that

(30:32):
need to be healed, that we can show upfor the movement in the way that the
movement really needs us to show up.
All of those emotions are thingsthat drain us that drain our energy.
Um, they take our focus away from, fromother more beautiful and productive
things that we could potentially focus on.
They prevent us from connectingmore deeply with people.
And so ultimately when we do thathealing, we just on a personal

(30:55):
level, have a more beautiful andinspired life that we can live.
But we also show up and createthe world that we want to live in.

Loran (31:01):
I really appreciate how there's this really solid through line through
this conversation about context.
And I think we in this space havefound ourselves in many different
contexts, um, talking with Whitepeople about anti-racism and.
One of the pieces of The Spillway isto have in so many words, try to study

(31:22):
Whiteness and study White people sothat we can find these themes so that
they become less opaque so that we canstart to actually hold them tangibly.
And we define them as White peoplefor White people in a neutral,
however much we can space with boththe positives and the negatives
of the experience of being White.
So in trying to find those themes ofwhat Whiteness and White people are or

(31:43):
do or don't do, I'm curious if you find,do you find a consistent pushback in
themes when you work with White people?
Um, anti-racism what are thosethemes sound like or look like?
Or how do they show up?
Cause sometimes they're not actual words.
Sometimes they show up physicallyand we embody that kind of response.

(32:05):
What, what, what's the pushback that'shappening in our workshops or in our
conversations and our relationships?

Jared Karol (32:10):
Well, do we have a couple of weeks?
No, Loran, it's such a, it'sthat's a great question.
Um, and I love how you distinguish, andI think people who do this work, whatever
their racial background understandit, but it's important, the difference
between Whiteness and White people.
Right.
And I think that goes back to the previousquestion discussion we were having, right.

(32:30):
That, you know, when,when we're centering.
Uh, you know, around centering, right?
Like in a way we have to, we have tobring Whiteness to the F to the forefront.
Is that centering?
I don't know.
Maybe it is right.
So that we can recognize it and talkabout it and start to understand it
so that we can be better White people.
So it's, you know, that's, I think that'simportant, but for me pushback, I mean,

(32:54):
there's so many buckets of pushback.
Um, I try, well, I would say I try, butjust the nature of my work, my kinda my
day job, and also my, my other kind ofwork is mostly working with people who are
already at least leaning in a little bit.
And so the pushback isn't like,you know, the, this is stupid
or, you know, what about it?
I mean, there's a little bit of that, butit's really more around the discomfort.

(33:16):
And so it, it centers the, well, I don'tknow how to have that conversation,
or I don't know if I want to challengeso-and-so because he'll probably get
angry if I call him on his racism.
So it's censoring the feelings inthe, in the, you know, the very real
relationships of, you know, that Whitepeople think about when they're not
thinking about, you know, racism andthat's, you know, pretty typical.

(33:39):
And so I think though, that's thepushback, but then I'm trying to say, all
right, well, let's put it in perspective.
So what's more important, your discomfort,at maybe having a tough conversation
with your White colleague or yourWhite family member, or, you know, the
stopping or at least mitigating theharm that is being done by not having
these conversations to people of Color.

(34:01):
So I think that kind of dynamic thatI see a lot, and I would imagine, you
know, Lynn and Jill, you do as well.

Loran (34:07):
And what these buckets, um, with our con I think, yeah, that's consistent.
Of, uh, uncomfortability of the fear ofleaning into these new conversations or,
uh, new relationships that we're having.
I'm also trying to figure out how wecenter love and these relationships, where
we sent her more compassion and empathyand understanding in these conversations

(34:30):
of racial justice and racial equity.
And, and as we were talking earlier aboutcancel culture, uh, and accountability
abuse with in anti-racism work, I'mwondering how we shift this paradigm into
one that is more compassionate and moreconnective and receptive to connectivity
than about shaming and expandingshame culture within justice work.

Jill Nagle (34:54):
Um, I had a personal turning point in 2015, shortly after Dylann
Roof had killed a room full of Blackchurch goers in their Bible study group.
And I was looking at a picture ofhim and he had that same sort of
glazed over dissociated dysregulated.

(35:17):
Look that my autistic son, wouldget in his eyes just before he
had yet another violent tantrum.
He's now a lot better.
Um, but I had this moment where this, thisknowing just kind of suffused my body,
which was, "I am not separate from him.
The same system thatcreated him also created me.

(35:41):
We are part of the samecollective White psyche."
And right around this time, I noticedthat the White people around me
were doing and saying things prettymuch exactly the opposite of that.
Calling him a monster callingfor him to be locked up forever.
No.
And I thought wait a second.
You know, from the sense of connection,I started to, um, formulate the idea

(36:07):
for these White on White workshops,how to talk to the other White people.
And I brought my sematic body-oriented,um, counseling skills in to help
people slow down their reactions,to what, like what happens in our
bodies when we monstrify, if you will.

(36:28):
And even if you want anotherWhite person, "oh my God, what's
actually happening within us?"
How do we slow that down and be withit and consider, just consider the
possibility of engaging them as anotherhuman being as if we were members of the
same family and in some profound way,we are all members of the same family.

(36:49):
We would draw them in just likewhen my son was having a tantrum,
I wasn't going to monstrify him.
I wanted to draw him inand say, "what's going on?
How did this happen?
How do we make you feelmore comfortable and safe?"
So you do this.
And as White people, I think that'swhere, you know, some things that

(37:11):
Lynn and Jared have mentioned aboutdoing the work within ourselves.
How do we expand our capacity for beingwith the hard feelings that come up when
we see other White people doing violentand harmful, sometimes fatal things.

Lynn Burnett (37:27):
Uh I'm going to try to weave the pushback that I receive together
with the question that Loran bringsforward, about how to we love each other.
How do we support each other?
You know?
So I get, uh, three primary types.
Of, I would say critique.
And I would say that they're, uh,well, first of all, just lay them out.

(37:47):
The first type of critique that I getis that lifting up, learning from,
teaching, talking about White anti-racistshistory, there's a concern that it
might veer into White centering orthat it might veer into White savior.
Saviorhood the second type of critiquethat I get is that they're concerned
that if people are giving money tofund the projects that I'm working on,

(38:10):
then they're giving money to a Whiteperson to write about White stuff.
And there's a concern that if peopleare giving their financial resources to
that, that means that they're not givingthe" financial resources, the Black
and Brown led racial justice efforts.
And then the third critique that I, thatI get, I would say happens in like one
out of every three workshops that I do.
There's someone in the workshopwho says, you know what?

(38:33):
Learning from the legacyof Anne Braden or whoever.
This is really interesting,but we're working on a specific
local concrete issue right now.
Like maybe we're trying to fightoff the school board takeovers or
the CRT backlash or whatever it is.
And even though the life of Anne Bradenis interesting, I don't know how it's
going to help us in our organization, doa better job at fighting a specific local

(38:57):
battle that we happen to be fighting."
In other words, there's a critique thatlearning from the history and the legacy
of how White anti-racism has been donewell in the past to some people, it
feels more abs-- it feels too abstract.
But the thing that I want to emphasizehere to connect to Loran's question about
like love and solidarity and connectionis that when these critiques come up

(39:21):
in, in, in this space of community,then even if people have really strong
feelings around them, if we have anopportunity to talk these out, we
develop much more nuanced understanding.
Of how White anti-racism takes placein the context of community, we
can evolve through these critiques.

(39:42):
And I think that each of thosecritiques is valid in its own way and
not only worthy of exploring, but Iwould say very important to explore.
And when we are able to discuss those inthe context of community, not only do we
develop more nuanced understandings, butwe also build community through exploring

(40:03):
some of those topics through exploringthe very topics that there might be some
edges around, you know, that's oftenwhere a lot of community building happens.
Where it gets into a moretoxic kind of pushback.
Typically in my experiences, in an onlinesetting, you know, if it's on some social
media and some response, people canfeel like if someone feels like they're

(40:26):
encountering my project for the firsttime, they think I'm centering Whiteness.
Sometimes they, as a White person, theymight have a feeling that their role as a
White anti-racist, if they see somethingthat's White centering in their eyes,
that their role is to stamp that out.
You know?
And so when that happens, there'sno nuance, there's no community,
there's no connection, you know?

(40:48):
And so I just really want to encourageanyone listening to this that what we
need to be doing is White anti-racistsis having conversation is listening to
each other is not jumping to conclusionsand judgments because there are a lot,
you know, I can respond well to eachof those critiques, but it takes a
lot of nuanced thinking and we, and wehave to be willing to at least hear out

(41:09):
where the other person is coming from.
And in my experience, when we dothat, once again, it builds community
more nuanced understandings.
And it's typically in my experience,just on the social media side of
things, is that the pushback can, youknow, be negative rather than positive.

Jenny (41:25):
And it's easy on the internet, right?
The anonymity of the internet, becauseyou can make your profile private.
And put a picture of the sea on thereand say anything you want, um, without
really feeling the consequencesof the other person's reaction.
And I'm not saying the internetis bad or social media is bad.

(41:47):
I think it builds alot of great community.
And especially during COVID, you know, itwas how we stayed connected to each other,
um, in a lot of ways for a lot of people.
But I think, I think one of the, the flipsides of that is, is that, and I don't,
I don't believe that the people believethat they're being cruel for no reason.

(42:10):
Like, I think a lot of folkshave this feeling that like, oh,
like you said, I have to stampthis out, but they're not there.
The other person is just alittle circle with a face on it.
Right.
And some texts, they're notactually a living human being
breathing in, in that mindset.
Right.
And so you just write whatever youthink you need to write to get.

(42:31):
Somebody to stop doing or saying whateverthey're doing or saying without being
connected to them, their humanity.
And I think that's soeasy on the internet.

Jill Nagle (42:41):
Yeah.
And I think with not only is, um, arethose conversations building community,
but they're also building a reallyvital skillset, which we all need if
we're going to survive on this planet,you know, slowing down, tuning in.
Um, and that's what I've beenreally excited about this last year.

(43:03):
In fact, I've even started, um,going through like oftentimes on
LinkedIn, for example, A Black personwill post something Black positive,
like Emmanuel Acho, for example,posted about his, um, he wore a
pinstripe suit to an awards ceremony.
And on the pinstripes, you sawthis to Jenny, were the names

(43:24):
of all these different, um,Black people had been killed.
And so I started scrolling throughto find the inevitable White person
who says, "well, what about allthe White police officers who were
killed?", these kinds of things.
And I start engaging them.
And I asked, "would you be willing totalk with me offline about your views
so that I can practice these skillsand provide examples to other people?"

(43:47):
Because I think we need to behaving these conversations.
And as you might guess, very fewpeople are willing to actually
show up face to face and do that.
But I think it's, um, disarming tohave somebody not cancel them, to have
somebody say, "tell me more about that.
What makes you think that way?"
Tell me where that first, you know, to, toactually inquire in a nonjudgmental way.

(44:09):
Um, and it's a skill, it's a skill thatI've been trying to work on in myself
and help other people work on too.

Jared Karol (44:15):
Jill.
I mean, you, just, with that little bit,you just shared, captured several things.
One, I think why we connect so easilyand so well, um, and this idea, you
know, when I was listening to you,Lynn, I wrote down a few things
to say, this idea of weaponizationof gatekeeping of absolutism.

(44:35):
And I'm sure there are other words thatwe can think of that kind of captures
and yes, online, it's a, maybe it'sa, it's exacerbated or more, more
severe, but it's also in person or,you know, in other communities as well.
And you know, this idea that I love,you know, what you said, uh, Lynn,
like "I have to stamp this out" andto me, you know, I've been doing

(44:56):
this work and I, you know, I knowJill, you know, my story, I don't
know if everyone else knows my story.
You know, my dad was a, it was agay man and he was HIV positive
and he died of AIDS in 2000.
He was a White man.
So it was, it wasn't about race.
But my entry into, you know, entrywayinto kind of social justice work and
equity work was through through that.

(45:16):
And so for many years, I was yourclassic social justice warrior
who was not interested in Newark.
Partly because I didn'trealize that there was nuance.
It was good, or it was bad.
But now with my infinitewisdom and maturity, right?
No, but seriously with, with, withtime you look back and I, look, I

(45:38):
see myself how I used to see thingsand interact with people or not.
And I see like what you described Lynn,as, as that, you know, I see things
like, well, my anti-racist educatortold me, it's like, that's great that
you have an anti-racist educator.
But like just one?
One perspective?
And that's kind of your thing,like what does that mean?

(45:59):
My anti-racist educator?
So there's these very kind of,almost like myopic, almost, maybe in
some cases like performative, likethe commitment is genuine, but the
actual embodiment isn't there yet.
So I think that speaks to whatyou were talking about, Jill.
How do we recognize that andabsorb that critique, that

(46:20):
criticism, that weaponization,that, that gatekeeping, right?
That, that kind of Blackor White, no pun intended.
Right.
Um, and I think that's, those are theskills, those are super important skills
for anyone doing this work, whether, youknow, like us who were kind of, you know,
teaching others, facilitating others,uh, holding spaces for others, or whether

(46:41):
you're just kind of, you know, new intothis world and you want to be part of it.
Like those are really important skills.
Cause it's, it's easy to just to go gothe, uh, the cancel route and it's rarely
helpful or, or, you know, productive.

Lynn Burnett (46:56):
Yeah.
W w when people do go that route, Ioften get the feeling that they probably
share a lot of my commitments, youknow, they probably want to see the
same kind of world that I went to see.
So we, we probably, even if that person.
It might in this moment feel likethey need to shut something down.
Um, I'm trying to think ofhow to put, like, we're, we're

(47:17):
probably on the same side here.
And when I see that happening,I try to have some level of
empathy when that happens.
And I'm not saying that this is alwaysthe case, but I think that a lot of
people who are coming with a fiercekind of ""let's shut this down energy.
I think a lot of those people are prettynew to White anti-racist practice.

(47:40):
And I don't think that that's always trueat all, but I think a lot of these people
they're just coming into figuring outwhat it means to be a White anti-racist
they're in a process of learning.
And one of the things that they'velearned as important to do is to
shut down something that seems Whitecentering or, or, or whatever, you know?
So to me, I'm kind of like, you know, thisis the stage that they happen to be at

(48:04):
in their own White anti-racist evolution.
And if anything, theyprobably need people.
In their lives or community in theirlives to help them work through
that and get to the next stage wherethey can actually be more productive
at doing what they're doing.

Jill Nagle (48:20):
Jared, you talked about being the bomb thrower at one point.

Jared Karol (48:24):
Totally.
I, I was, I was throwing bombs atanyone who, who had, you know, sit
under the grenade and go get exploded.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Jenny (48:33):
We've all been there, I think.

Jared Karol (48:35):
Well, I think Lynn Lynn, you captured it, I think.
And maybe this is true for, for all of us.
I, and not that I don't see myself,I don't consider myself or see
myself or title myself as an expert.
Right.
It's not like I have the answers,but what I do have is, you know,
at this point about 22 years ofexperience doing this work, what

(48:57):
you just captured, Lynn, I think isexactly it for, for me personally.
Like I can go back 15 years inmy life for maybe even 10 years.
Right.
And go, yep.
That's kind of how my mind was working.
And so using myself as a barometer,like to see, you know, what my
path has been, you know, as Jillsaid, I do use that, that language.

(49:19):
Like I was a bomb thrower.
I saw something that was, you know,wrong, you know, in air quotes or bad.
And I was gonna, I was gonna fix it.
I was gonna stop it.
Or if I couldn't stop it, I was going tolet everyone know that it wasn't okay.
And that I wasn't going tostand for it to what end though.
I was much less effective.

(49:39):
Uh, people, it was easier to dismissbecause there weren't very many, if
any people like we're describing,as you said, Lynn, like that say,
"Hey, tell me more about why youfeel so strongly about that."
Right.
I'm sure there were people, butI think a lot of it was, you
know, just getting like, wait asecond, let me be reflective here.
Like, is this actually working now?

(50:01):
No.
It's not.
So I think that it's, you know, to seeourselves in other White folks is really
part of this work without shaming orjudging, but recognizing, so, yeah,
I'm glad you bring that in a Jill.

Jill Nagle (50:14):
So, um,
I also wanted to flag, you know,we're all being human is to be a
receiver and transmitter of theculture or cultures that we grow up in.
And all of us in the United States ofAmerica are steeped in White supremacist,
capitalist heteropatriarchy and part ofgrowing up and finding that, that puts

(50:39):
us out of alignment with our values isthe kind of time and labor intensive
process of noticing how we reproduce.
Those ways of being those artifactswithin ourselves, like with individualism,
like with this intense right/wrongpolarization and making people wrong.
And I, you know, I got off on beingright when I was younger, I got off

(51:02):
on being able to talk circles aroundpeople and it didn't occur to me that
this itself was part of the culturethat I was purporting to transform.
And that my way of showing up inthe world was not transformative.
It was in fact reinscribing that.
So it takes time to realize practice,to undo them and find other ways

(51:24):
of showing up when you're, youknow, you recognized or rewarded
for being an arrogant know at all.

Loran (51:32):
I like to think that we can all change, that we're
not stuck ideologically.
Uh, emotionally, physically, and theplaces that we find ourselves in.
And I, I don't see that a lot inour movement work as there is.
I really, I connect a lot to the words,"accountability abuse", and that once we

(51:53):
hold someone accountable, we then-- howdo we move forward and pass that to say,
yes, uh, rehabilitation, reconnectionand restoration have happened.
And we are now mindful of the past, andwe're still going forward into a future
that is co-created and that is loving andempathetic and compassionate and full.
And I'm wondering how we send hermore forgiveness and more grace in our

(52:18):
work, not only for ourselves, but forthe people that we're working with and
for the people that we're trying tobe in connection and community with.
Moving this conversation forward.

Jill Nagle (52:29):
Loran, could you just give a brief definition of accountability abuse?
I think I understand what you mean,but I'm not a hundred percent sure.

Loran (52:35):
Sure.
So it's fairly similar and connectedto cancel culture in that "we want to
hold you accountable, but then we willnever let that accountability on, uh,
w we'll never, we're never, we're nevergoing to take our foot off the gas.
You will forever be heldresponsible for these actions."
And so that would be the abuse ofholding accountability, abuse with them.

(52:56):
Um, we'll also put in the shownotes, uh, some really great pieces
that have, uh, been generatedaround accountability abuse.
So that folks can take a look and readthat because it's a really fascinating
kind of lens and understanding,cancel culture as, as a form of abuse.

Jared Karol (53:12):
Uh, I love that Loran and I liked, I liked the way you described it.
It closely, you know, Imentioned weaponizing before.
It's kind of like weaponizing,you know, truth or web
weaponizing, you know, history.
Uh, and, uh, and I don't want to godown the, like, you know, oh, White
people are abused, you know, likereverse racism route or anything.

(53:33):
But I think there is that, uh,I know I've experienced that.
And, and to your point earlier,Jenny, like a lot of it online, um,
especially the last couple of years.
Cause you know, most everythingI'm I've been doing is been virtual
or on social media, but yeah.
Um, one thing I learned from like doingleadership development, this isn't really
necessarily related to anti-racism work,but I bring it in is like this idea

(53:57):
of like assuming future capability.
Right.
And I think that speaks to, you know,maybe, maybe the antithesis of what
Loran, how, how you were describing,you know, accountability abuse,
because of the accountability abuse.
It's like, yeah.
Foot on the gas, like you did this thing.
There's no hope for you.
But assuming future capabilitysays, Hey, you know what?
You messed up, you caused harm.
Let's talk about it.

(54:18):
And you know, let's see how you change.
And if, and when you do change,then, then we're good or at least
we're on the path to better.

Jill Nagle (54:27):
Can I piggy back on that?

Jared Karol (54:29):
Yeah, please.

Jill Nagle (54:30):
So one of the phrases that, um, I've been really alive
around lately is "normalize repair."
Normalize repair.
Because if you look at all of you, ifall of human history were, let's say
packed into 24 hours, it's only beenin the last 15 minutes that we have had

(54:51):
the luxury of canceling one another.
Because before that, you know,I had to rely on your killing
the bison and you gathering theberries and you making the fire.
And this person watching my kidswhile I went to gather, you know,
fruits or something, we were, wehave been interdependet for so long.
We couldn't afford to cancel each other.

(55:13):
And now we have the quote unquote luxury.
We have the capability of cutting peopleoff, who we love, and people are quicker
to go and repair their cars and theircomputers and their broken fingernails.
And they are a freaking relationshipthat they love and it breaks my heart.
So I want us to normalize repair andoftentimes people are more afraid...

(55:36):
They build up in their minds that comingface to face and working things out.
And I'm speaking here as someone who'sdone a lot of mediation, um, and seen
that, you know, when people are willing tocome to the table, that's 88% of the work.
And the rest is, is pretty easy to dowith some skills, some basic skills.

(55:57):
Um, but people build up in theirminds that somehow I'm coming face to
face with the person that they havea conflict with is going to be bad.
It's going to be harmful.
It's going to be painful.
And usually they feel somuch better at the end.
And so I want to find ways to normalizerepair, which is a whole other, have a
lot of thinking, a lot of projects, a lotof spilled, a lot of pixels on that one.

(56:21):
And I think it's deeply,deeply connected to.
Um, what we're talking about hereand how we can get through some of
the disconnects that anti-racistWhite people find ourselves in

Loran (56:31):
Looking at the time we're going to go into our last question.
Unfortunately/fortunately, uh, as wecontinue moving on with our work in our
lives, uh, so I want to actually, if wecan do a go-around moment, cause I would
love for everyone to respond to this one.
It's a two-parter.
Do you want to share a little bitabout where we can find you in
the work that we can engage withyou in outside of the podcast?

(56:55):
Please let us know that here.
And then there's part two.
You've got this very literalmicrophone in front of you, uh, with
a whole bunch of presumably Whitepeople listening to this podcast.
What do you want to tellWhite people from you to them?
What do, what do you want them to hear?
What you want them to know?
Um, or what do you want to askWhite people in this moment?

(57:17):
Second question's a littlebit bigger than the first one.
So...

Lynn Burnett (57:22):
SO people can follow my work at Cross Cultural Solidarity.com.
That is also the home of the WhiteAnti-Racist Ancestry Project.
So people can find thoseresources there as well.
Uh, there are multiple ways tosupport the project and when people
do, they also stay plugged intoall the forthcoming resources.

(57:42):
And events.
So that's one way to stay in touchwith, uh, with what's going on.
And what I would say is because I'mfocused on White anti-racists history, and
I see that history as providing sourcesof guidance and inspiration of, for White
people doing White anti-racists work well.
And I would hope listeners would walk awaywith would be, you know, I hope that they

(58:04):
might find some guidance and inspirationin the history that I'm lifting up.
But beyond that, I hope that you feelinto your own, uh, what, what you need
in your life to feel inspired, to feelsustained, to feel your own growth.
And I hope that whateverit is that you find that.

Loran (58:20):
That's really lovely, Lynn.
Thank you.

Jared Karol (58:23):
So, um, you people can find me at Jared Karol
it's J a R E D K a R O l.com.
Um, and there's a link to the book thatI wrote, uh, that came out last fall
called A White Guy Confronting Racism.
You can also go to that.
A White guy confronting racism.comand not super active on social media.

(58:44):
I do have a, uh, an Instagramhandle, A White Guy Confronting
Racism , mostly active on LinkedIn,although decreasingly these days.
Cause I actually have a full-timejob, uh, in this space, by the
way, uh, at a great company calledTranslator, a great company.
Um, so those are, those arethere's where you can find me.
What do I want White people to know?
Um, I want White folks listening tothis to recognize that racism impacts

(59:12):
you just as much as it does a maybe notjust as much, but it impacts us all.
And that this isn't a.
You know, saving or, uh, you know,uh, it's not an altruistic thing or a
philanthropic thing to save or do betterfor Black people or for Brown people, for

(59:34):
other people of Color and recognize thatit's about humanity, including your own.
It's about healing as we talkedabout earlier, including your own.
And so tap into that part about,um, when you're not feeling your,
and other's full humanity, when youfeel like there's something missing,

(59:57):
I don't have an answer for you.
I don't think any of us does, but tapinto that and sit with that and see what
is it calling you to do differently?

Jill Nagle (01:00:07):
I like that, Jared Karol!

Jared Karol (01:00:11):
Thank you, Jill.

Jill Nagle (01:00:15):
So, I am at EvolutionaryWorkplace.com.
I also, my medium.com workssometimes appears on AfroSapiophile.
I love that word.
Um, I am seeking agent representationright now for a book I'm working on

called "Skin in the Game (01:00:38):
How White People Benefit from Dismantling White Supremacy."
Um, and I sometimes poston LinkedIn as well.
And I have a group on Facebook called"Whites, Dismantling White Supremacy,"
which everyone is welcome to join.
For White people.
I want to invite you to getcurious, especially around the

(01:01:02):
places where you find yourself,you notice your body feeling tense,
or you feel ashamed or defensive.
I want to invite you to get curious,really allow spaciousness, to just be
with, be with what's happening in body.
Because I think that's whereall of this repair starts.

(01:01:26):
How is White supremacist mythologyliving in our own bodies in so many
different ways and to not fight itor judge it, but simply be with that.

Loran (01:01:37):
It's a really lovely way to end this.
On a lovely note, Jill.
Thank you so much.
Jill, Jared, Lynn, this has beenan absolute pleasure and dream come
true to bring you all together inthis space and talk about these
very important topics of dismantlingWhite supremacy as White people.
Thank you all so muchfor joining us today.

Jenny (01:02:11):
It's so great to see people out in the world doing this work.

Loran (01:02:17):
Oh my god, right.

Jenny (01:02:18):
However, it differs from how we would do it, or they would,
you know, each of them would do it.
It's so hope inducing that wehave folks out there who are
willing to put all of their livesinto, you know, anti racist work.

(01:02:40):
But again, not on the doorsteps of peopleof Color, not putting White healing,
you know, taking it out of their court,letting them do all the things that they
have to do to even survive in this world.
That that's really wonderful.

Loran (01:02:58):
I, and the thing that keeps blowing my mind is
them, unless I was doing this work where Iintentionally changed my search key terms.
Right.
But that had to do with like myown awakening as a White person,
trying to find and commune withother White people about dismantling
White supremacy and shame as a Whiteperson with other White people.

Jenny (01:03:22):
Right.
I've never, ever would have thoughtabout that if it wasn't for you.
So I never would've knownthey existed without you,

Loran (01:03:32):
right?
Well, and I that's because Iwas so deeply invested in this,
like anti-racist woke culture.
That was "no, no, no, actuallyWhite people don't have any
answers and cannot be trusted.
Shouldn't be trusted."
Yeah.
And so I think that that was reallylovely thing about the space was
seeing and experiencing these reallybeautiful humans doing this work.

(01:03:59):
Showing up for each otherand showing up for ourselves.

Jenny (01:04:02):
Yeah.
Like they know each other andlike hang out and do stuff.
And like, you know, that's notmany of them are on social media.
I noticed.

Loran (01:04:14):
Right.
That was also really tellinglike, what does that mean?
Should we take The Spillway off of social?

Jenny (01:04:20):
You know, I've thought about asking you about that.
Like, is it really helping anyoneor is it just creating a space for
people to, for, you know, for lackof a better word, trolls to come in
and be like, man, you know, like, isthat taking, but then also then you

(01:04:47):
limit, you kind of limit your audience.
But then also, what kind ofaudience do you have from that?

Loran (01:04:56):
I think to me, it's like the TikTok phenomenon of, I didn't know that other
people existed until I was on Tik TOK,that like act, think, believe, behave
have the same riduclous idiosyncrasies.
Yeah.
As I did until Tik TOK was like, oh wow.
You and thousands of other people havethis exact same similar experience.
I wouldn't have known that unlessI was on that social media.

(01:05:19):
And so for me, being on social media,it's also this, like, I don't know if it's
like beacon to say, Hey, here's anotherWhite person trying to do this work.
Like let's join.
And, and I have found some like,really beautiful people through that
experience, but I think, and alsoThe Spillway is this giant, like, um,

(01:05:46):
Like foam pit for people to jump intowith their anger and their hurts and
their frustrations and as confusingas it is for me, sometimes I know
actually, oh, well, this isn't about me.
This is, this is about them.
Uh, and their experience withtheir own concept of being White
or Whiteness or White supremacy.

(01:06:09):
And that's why I think that TheSpillway channels are so important.
Uh, social media channels is becauseit is sometimes the only foam
pit that people are jumping into.
That there's going to be anotherWhite person there with their hand
outstretch saying "here, let mehelp you out of this foam pit."
Like you just needed a faceplant in here, get it out.

(01:06:30):
Um, and come on, like,let's just talk about this.
It's like Jill was saying, uh, likegoing through the comments, like,
actually let's talk about this.
Like, tell me more about this.
Where, why do you feel this way or what'sleading you to believe these things?
Uh, let's talk about it.
Let's talk it out.
And if we don't have a space to talk itout, if we're just going to continually,

(01:06:52):
uh, block and cancel and unfriend,anyone who we disagree with, then we're
just gonna, you know, devolve furtherand further into our echo chambers
and, uh, devolving into that space.
Isn't really helping anyone, uh,at it's hurting us in the long run.

(01:07:12):
We have to figure out a way back toeach other and sometimes we just kinda
make an ass of yourself to get there.