White Academia & Amy Hillier, MSW, PhD

What does it mean to teach and talk about race and racism in our education systems? What does it mean to be White in academia?

Here we sit down with Dr. Amy Hillier, MSW, Associate Professor at The School of Social Policy and Practice at the University of Pennsylvania with the following outline:

What is CRT look like in your classrooms?

What are we getting right and wrong about CRT today?

What are White students saying in classrooms about race and racism?

How do we translate ideas into praxis? Do you see a role in emotionally and physically locating and embodying ideas?

Do you think de-centering Whiteness supports or undermines Derrick Bell’s concept of interest convergence?

Dr. Hillier's research has focused on historical housing and public health disparities including mortgage redlining, affordable housing, healthy foods, park use and access, and outdoor advertising. Her most recent research focuses on transgender youth and their families. With Dr. Stephanie Boddie, she co-directs The Ward, a research, teaching, and public history project dedicated to sharing the timeless lessons about racism and the role of research in affecting social change based on W.E.B. Du Bois’ 1899 book, The Philadelphia Negro. Her teaching has focused on similar topics as her research. She led the required two-course sequence on American racism within SP2’s social work program and has taught courses in city planning, urban studies, public health, and social policy focused on equity and social justice. She is the founding director of the cross-school graduate LGBTQ certificate and, with Dr. Beverley Crawford, co-created of the online course, The Penn Experience: Racism, Reconciliation and Engagement.

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For a transcript of this episode and more, please visit our website, www.thespillway.org

Mentioned in this episode:

The Spillway Community Guidelines

1. Engage sequentially. The show is a serial not episodic. We do this so we can build relation and find common ground and context. 2. We stay in our own lane. The Spillway is about White people talking to (predominately) White people about White people and White culture. We're not out here to critique anyone's actions but our own. 3. Our combined fabric of destiny. (3a) As Dr. King said, our humanities are deeply interconnected to each other. Racism negatively impacts me, too. (3b) The Spillway is one mechanism within a larger framework needed to sustain racial equity and justice. We're not a one-stop shop. 4. No one right way to liberation. We all share the same goals, but not every method works for every person. If this doesn't work for you. That's okay. Maybe it works for someone else.

Episode Transcript

Loran (00:00):
So like I flash forward.
And I think about when I moved outto the East coast and start talking
about race with people, there wasalways the immediate reputation or kind
of like stereotype around folks outWest and the Midwest that we're just

(00:20):
stupid, that we just don't have thesame education or that like an East
coast education is just so much better.
Um, and I think that

Jenny (00:28):
yes, yes, yep.
Yep.
That was a big thing.
It, our, can I call AMDA byAMDA or should I not call?
AMDA by AMDA.
Our, where, where we went to college,if you will, the first time, um, you
know, I'd say it was from Texas and theywere like, oh, that education system.

(00:58):
Oh, okay.

Loran (01:03):
Is that people in that like assumptions that they were making, part
of it was only semi true, and that we hadvery different, uh, like social sciences.
We were learning very different things.
And so even, even when we think aboutscience, like we could go out and look
at mountains and go look at geologyin a very different way than you could

(01:25):
back east and well, like and vice versa.

Jenny (01:27):
Right.

Loran (01:27):
But, um, one of the major conversations that I kept having was,
uh, that I didn't know the intricaciesof the Civil War as much, because I knew
because that wasn't taught to me in thesame way that it was back East because
it actually happened back East andColorado was never part of the Civil War.
And so when we were talking aboutlike the history of Colorado.

(01:49):
All right.
It's not us.

Jenny (01:54):
That seems, that seems true for me also, but I don't know if I'm just like
latching on to your memory or if, yeah.
Cause we spent, I mean a ton oftime not to roll my eyes because
there's a, you know, but we spendtime learning about the Alamo.

(02:17):
I don't know.
I was busy sweating.
I was busy sweating through my shirts.
I'm thinking of, you know, about sex.
Probably.
I have no idea what themovie with John Wayne

Loran (02:32):
It's a
movie?

Jenny (02:37):
My gosh.
You should watch

Loran (02:38):
The only thing I know about the Alamo is from King of the Hill.
That's all I know.

Jenny (02:45):
You know, more than I do.
Um, yeah, they were.
I dunno, it's one of those.
We were probably trying tosteal something and then, and
then we got stuck in the Alamo.

(03:05):
Everybody died, everybody got killed.
Um,

Amy (03:10):
but I don't know why

Loran (03:11):
is that why you have to remember it?
"Remember the Alamo?"I feellike that's the tagline.

Jenny (03:18):
I even went there.
Like I know it wasn't, itwas for Daria's wedding.
It wasn't as a kid.
I never went there, but Daria I gotmarried and in San Antonio and I
even went there and I still don't
know
this, you know how I don't remember dates or names or any
like really important information

(03:43):
that, yeah.
Wow.
Was it good way to put it?

Loran (03:47):
Yes.
Yeah.
There's no judgment.
There's absolutely no judgmentbecause I am with you.
I am with you 100%.
There's some stuff in Colorado.
I'm like okay it happened so excited.
Oh, another fucking mining town.
Cool.
What did they mine for here?

(04:10):
So exciting.
Although there was,oh, there was this one.
There's this cannibal Alferd PackerI was so terrified when we went to go
visit his city where he lived and ate.
people.
He like ate like one person cause hewas like starving to death and dying.
Um, oh,

Jenny (04:29):
was that person dead already or was it an on-the-road

Loran (04:33):
Probably already dead.
100% will be dead and offered back.
And Alferd Packer was like, Ijust need sustenance to live so

Jenny (04:38):
I'm so hungry.

Loran (04:41):
We went to this restaurant where they like named like the
cheeseburger, like the AlferdPacker victim or stuff like that.
And I was terrified thatI was going to be next
I was like a little kid a hundredyears later, so, and it's just
like the fear of that Alferd Packer

Jenny (05:01):
I just feel your pit sweating.
Cause you're like, oh my God.
Oh my God.

Loran (05:26):
hello.
And welcome to The Spillway podcast.
I'm Loran

Jenny (05:30):
and I'm Jenny.

Loran (05:31):
We believe three things: hurt people can hurt people.

Jenny (05:34):
White people are hurting

Loran (05:36):
and are healing as possible.

Jenny (05:37):
This is a podcast devoted to understanding the complex
nature of living as White people in
America.

Loran (05:43):
Without supremacy or shame.
A few months ago, I started anorganization, The Spillway around
supporting White people to work throughperpetrator induced, traumatic stress
or pits and intergenerational trauma.
And I offer this service with theacknowledgement that healing work is just
one mechanism within a larger networkrequired to sustain our collective
movement towards racial justice.

(06:04):
And that I seek to grow theseservices rather than redistribute
where we put our efforts in funding.
And to get this message out there,I have asked one of the most
compassionate ferociously tender,hilarious and incredibly smart humans.
I know she's the most smartestJenny Skinner to join me
on this podcasting journey.
Jenny and I come from similaryet separate backgrounds.

(06:26):
And importantly, we offer incrediblydifferent perspectives sometimes just by
who we are as people and other times bythe different identities that we hold.

Jenny (06:34):
We are committed to building compassion, understanding, empathy,
and patience into the present andfuture of Whiteness and White culture.
We cannot change the past, butwe can change the future through
the actions we take today.

Loran (06:46):
And we seek to embody that through the work of James Baldwin,
Sonya Renee Taylor, Kazu Haga ResmaaMenakem Kai Cheng Thom and countless
others asking for White people to inso many words, get our shit together.
And since The Spillway there'sbeen consistent feedback, sometimes
within the same space that Whitepeople are engaging this work with

(07:06):
closed hearts and closed minds,

Jenny (07:08):
this work can be difficult and beautiful.
It isn't an exercise in vulnerabilityand unlearning perfectionism with
real-world consequences in anage of seven, second judgements.
We hope The Spillway and our livingin it can give others the courage
that is needed to join in this way.
We know that attempting

Loran (07:26):
to be vulnerable and consenting to learn in public
is incredibly terrifying work.
And yet we have to start somewhereconversations of race and racism.
Aren't going away anytime soon and givenour incredibly different places in the
world that we're trying to create a middleground where White people can get together
and talk and create action around theparadox of being White in the U S where

(07:47):
we are simultaneously the perpetratorsand the victims of race and racism.

Jenny (07:52):
We seek to embody the work of countless activists of Color.
Who've been calling White folks to seekour own healing around race and racism.
So here we are two White peoplecommitting to the work of individual
and collective healing aroundrace and racism for White people.
Healing ourselves is no one'sresponsibility, but our own let's heal

(08:12):
together and grow to stop the impactsof race and racism in the lives of
people of Color and our lives as well.

Loran (08:20):
Welcome to our podcast.
Last episode, I asked Fred Jealousif the key to racial justice was
more education or more relation.
And he simply said "both" so often whenwe talk about preventative services
within race and racism, we immediatelylook to education as the magic key as if

(08:44):
all of the book clubs in the world thatsprung up in the summer and fall of 2020
following the murders of Breonna Taylorand George Floyd would forever change the
trajectory of the racial equity movementin the U S well, it didn't hurt either.
It was as if we could mentallyuntangle the emotional and

(09:07):
embodied knots of American racism.
We could intellectualize it.
And if we're only thinkingabout it, we're not feeling it.
And that's exactly what a lotof White people like to do when
it comes to race and racism.
I think this is why we struggled so muchas conservative White people with the CRT

(09:27):
question in the school board electionsin 2021, we can talk about race sure.
As a historical artifact, but we can't.
Well, we actually should legislate thatthere shouldn't be any emotional component
to educational units on race or racism.

(09:47):
But I think this is also where westruggled to as liberal White people
and that many liberals that I interfacedwith much like conservatives didn't
actually know the tenants of CRT.
We just knew the talking points handed tous from either the media or our book club.
As it currently posits, critical racetheory, doesn't translate into a reality

(10:09):
understood by many White Americans,beginning in Ivy and Ivy + schools
throughout the 1970s and eighties.
The crux of CRT was born in tandem andopposition with critical legal studies, as
affirmative action marginally, increasedenrollment of students of Color in
universities, still educational systems.

(10:31):
Hadn't updated their studies outsideof the interest of White populations
and mainly led by students.
CRT slowly took form to createmeaningful action around schools,
ostracizing curricula, and thecolorblind culturalism of Reaganomics
and colorblind culturalism is primarilyunderstood as the rights, social and

(10:52):
political movements to counteractthe advances of the freedom movement.
CRT varies widely fromscholar to sect to industry.
Yet CRT's three foundationaltenants serve as these touchpoints
between the multitudes of theories,around critical race studies.
First is racism is commonplace.

(11:12):
Racism happens every day.
Second White people dictatethe terms of racial liberation
through interest convergence.
Third race is socially constructed.
This list is introduced in "CriticalRace Theory: an Introduction" by Richard
Delgado and Jean Stefancic in 2017.

(11:34):
And it is served as required readingfor many schools of social work
and departments that study race andracism across the United States.
There is tremendous truth in each of thesestatements, if they exist in isolation.
And if a society doesn't change.
And this brings about our firstguest on The Spillway podcast our

(11:56):
first guest ever to talk about howwe talk about the evolving nature
of race and racism in society andhow we do that in the classroom, the
college classroom, to be more precise.
Amy Hillier MSW PhD as a social worker andan associate professor in the School of
Social Policy and Practice also lovinglyreferred to as SP2 at the University of

(12:17):
Pennsylvania, her research has focusedon historical housing and public health
disparities, including mortgage redlining,affordable housing, healthy foods, park
use, and access and outdoor advertising.
Her most recent research focuses ontransgender youth and their families
with Stephanie Boddie she co-directsThe Ward, a research teaching and public

(12:40):
history project dedicated to sharing thetimeless lessons of racism and the role
of research in effecting social change.
Based on W.E.B.
Du Bois' 1899 book.
"The Philadelphia Negro", her teaching hasfocused on similar topics as her research.
She led the required two coursesequence on American racism with an
SP2 social work program and has taughtin city planning, urban studies,

(13:04):
public health and social policyfocused on equity and social justice.
She is the founding director of thecross-school graduate LGBTQ certificate.
And with Dr.
Beverly Crawford co-created the onlinecourse, the Penn Experience: Racism,
Reconciliation, and Engagement.
It's so great to have you Amy.
Welcome to the podcast.

Amy (13:25):
Thanks.
Very happy to be here.

Jenny (13:27):
First question that we have, where did it go?
Is Amy, um, talking about race andeducation has become increasingly
controversial, approximately 75% of Whiteconservatives and 25% of White liberals
think talking about slavery and ourhistory of racism in this country is bad.

(13:50):
So how is that?
How do you approach thatwithin your classrooms?

Amy (13:56):
Um, that's a great question and I don't have it.
I don't have an easy answer.
Um, I would say with humility becausedoing it and doing it well is not.
You know, it's not somethingI take for granted.
Um, and I, you know, I started teachingclasses about racism, not because I was an
expert, but because I needed help sortingthrough my own sort of lens on the world.

(14:19):
Um, and I think that my answer tothat question is shifting I've,
there's been times where I'vejust wanted to be a self-righteous
liberal and say, "this is right.
This is what we do.
That's wrong and get on board and,and, and I'm not going to budge."
Um, but I think, um, I had a colleaguejust, um, introduce, which is Fugitive

(14:42):
Pedagogy, which is about Carter G Woodson.
Um, and, and the basic argument,which I haven't read this yet.
The basic argument is.
The Blacks learning to read was, was,was out of bounds in terms of education.
Um, and that, that, that teaching,teaching Black people in public schools

(15:02):
and, and, and you know, much less teachingcivil rights history, and about slavery,
much less teaching, critical race theory.
So, you know, there's a, there'sa very long history of resistance.
So I think seeing, seeing what'shappening now with legislators across
the country, kind of playing politicswith what's happening in my classroom,
in your class, You know, to think ofthat as is, you know, that's resistance

(15:25):
because, because racism is so strong.
Um, and, um, you know, to think ofit is, um, you know, part of, we
can't just being right, is not theanswer addressing that resistance is.
Um, so if I'm not down withdoing that, then I've no business
doing this kind of work, I

(15:45):
guess

Loran (15:46):
When you talk about that resistance, Amy, do you think that
these policies that are out there, youbeing an author of some policy yourself,
do you think that this policy has anykind of, um, some time, some distance
that it can stay in the, on the books?
Or is it going to beoverturned immediately?

Amy (16:05):
Ya know, that's a great question.
I mean, similar with, uh, you know,the, the policies around trans kids,
um, there's some pretty terrifying,um, you know, abortion rights.
So there's a lot of changesthat we could be seeing.
Um, and I'm, you know,I'm always optimistic.
Um, but optimism has, has not sort ofguided, um, you know, has I, haven't been

(16:29):
on the right side of sort of things interms of, I wouldn't have predicted all
of this happened in the last few years.
So, um, you know, I do worry thatthis might be a larger pendulum
swing, um, uh, you know, a largerform of resistance, um, and, and.
We, um, you know, it might, it mightbe affecting their reality and at least

(16:50):
in some places around the country fora long time, w what it seems to be is
we're having extremes where we have, youknow, I'm pretty protected at a private
wealthy university in the Northeast.
Um, and my kids in public schools herein Philadelphia, um, are, are learning
like everything I want, you know, we,there are no restrictions on our teaching.

(17:10):
So I really worry that stateby state, um, we can have very
different public education.
Um, and you know, familiesmay be, may have to move.
Um, and it may start to influencewhere, you know, where people go to
college and where people want to work.
I am.
I'm definitely worried.
What about you,
Loran?

Loran (17:30):
I feel like.
Uh, I'm really confused as to what's goingon with the conservative side of pieces,
especially the, from, from my growingup in the nineties and early '00s, the
conservative angle was always freedomand Liberty, do whatever you want to do.
Just make sure that you'renot hurting anyone else.
And so now that there's this anti Libertyor like anti freedom framework, um, that's

(17:55):
like taking over the conservative side,um, specifically the Republican party.
It's rather unsettling.
Uh, only in that, like I used toknow who I was talking about when
I talked about Republicans and I'mseeing the shift happen over my
lifetime over how we're defining.
Certain political parties and italways just didn't make a lot of sense
to me is how Abraham Lincoln was aRepublican, seeing the Republicans that

(18:19):
I knew in the nineties or 00's whenI was first learning about different
political ideologies or parties.
And it's, it's fascinating to watchthat happen in real time, but also to
not know that you're like witnessingit real time, you kind of have to
like sit in it and then kind ofturn back and reflect a little bit.
So, yeah, I'm, I'm terrified.
And also, uh, I'm really curiousas to where this is going because

(18:39):
I-- don't what's the end game?
And do they think that this is goingto be permanent is something that, uh,
kind of keeps me up at night sometimes.
I really don't know.

Amy (18:51):
You know, and so at some level, like I can dismiss a lot of the conservative
pushback as being, you know, justtrying to rally troops get votes.
Um, but I also see some of it is like,you know, and so critical race theory,
like the tenants of critical race theory.
Like should be very threatening topeople who hold privilege that's

(19:13):
based on race and whose wealthis based on sort of being White.
Um, and so at some level, I see thatthis sort of increase in resistance is
showing that people get it that, that,that White supremacy, like we really
are serious about attacking some ofthe, you know, the basic tenant of, um,

(19:35):
you know, privilege in this country.
Um, you know, and, and, and, andmaybe, maybe this is the last, you
know, th the, the la the last big sortof resistance, or maybe not, maybe
it's just, um, one of, you know, manymore decades of, um, pushing back
against, um, you know, civil rights.
Um, you know, especially, I thinkmaybe the most disturbing is actually

(19:56):
the voting rights, the, the pushbackon voting rights, because that's,
yeah, that's, there's, there's,there's such implications and it's so.
Um, I think so disturbing, especiallyfor folks who fought Jim Crow and,
you know, in the south and, uh, youknow, got the, got the right to vote.

Loran (20:16):
Do you think that, uh, the role of CRT or it's kind of scapegoating as it's
happening and legislatures across thecountry, do you think that that's kind
of, uh, misdirected by what CRT is, or arethere misconceptions about what are there
good or bad stereotypes about what CRT is?

Amy (20:37):
I do think that at some level, no, one's taking the time to read, you know,
Derrick Bell or, you know, folks who arefoundational to critical race theory.
Um, you know, because, and I, and I'vehad colleagues liberal, like liberal
colleagues and academics push back.

(20:58):
Um, and i- if, whether it wasfrom a practical standpoint or
it was a more deeper theoretical.
Um, so I, you know, I do think thatthere's a superficial sort of knee jerk.
It's, it's, it's a, it's aconvenient, um, it's a convenient
way to, to, to, to resist.
Um, because I think when peopleread it, it's about, it's about

(21:20):
understanding racism as ordinary.
And that's not the same as saying Whitepeople are evil and always have been.
You know, to feel guilt.
Right.
But, but to say that racism is ordinary,um, is to accept that there's a long
history, you know, it's ordinaryand it's, and it's not anywhere.
Um, and that, that the, that, thatthere's one White self-interest in,

(21:44):
in often in, in civil rights, uh, youknow, concessions, um, and that Black
voices and the voices of people ofColor should be privileged to listen
to, and people would live to experience.
Um, you know, and so in some ways Ifeel like these are just such basic,
the tenants of CRT are so basic, um,to, to my understanding, um, and to, you

(22:05):
know, a lot of, you know, contemporaryauthors that, you know, people are
taking the time to understand it.
You know, that said, I do think for,for folks who are deeply invested in
White supremacy, that, um, Criticalrace theory is threatening and
it should be seen as threatening.
Um, and the fact that it's madeits way into, you know, public
schools, um, I think is shaking thefoundation for, for some people,

Loran (22:32):
Amy, I'm wondering how we hold the contradictions within these
conversations about critical race theoryand thinking about what Jenny was saying.
With the, with that data at that saidthat, you know, about 75% of Republicans
don't want us talking about race orracism in public classrooms, um, or

(22:57):
that liberals, at least the onesthat I've been speaking to couldn't or
can't actually name what the tenants ofcritical race theory actually are, but
still want them taught within publicschools, uh, these contradictions around
CRT, how do we make sense of them?
Uh, or how do we try to reconcilethem within this larger conversation
of racial equity and justice?

Amy (23:21):
We're all full of contradictions and we have this capacity, I mean, I think
particularly White people and, you know, Iclearly identify as White being here that.
We have these brilliantdefense mechanisms, right.

(23:43):
That protect us, like why, youknow, why do I have all the material
wealth in the world that I do?
Why do I have all thecomforts and privileges?
Right.
I have all these defense mechanismsthat protect me and, and, and
some of those are racialized.
Um, so I think that, you know,White liberals are as full
of full of contradictions as,you know, White conservative.

(24:06):
Um, so it, it doesn't,it doesn't make sense.
It, you know, a lot of it is irrational.
It's not, it's not consistent.
It's not, I think most of us do not havea consistent ideology that, you know,
that, that runs through our parenting,like how we treat one another, like how we
teach, how we vote, like how we, you know,and, and I, you know, I see this with,

(24:28):
you know, when, when, when you challengeparents were in my peer group, around
their kids, Public school privileges.
Right?
You see those contradictions,you see those?
Wait a minute.
Aren't you for equity?
Well, well maybe, but, you know,so, so yeah, I think that that's,
that's how I would understand it.

(24:48):
That we're all full of contradictions.
And, um, so looking for some consistency,isn't going to work, but, but
understanding where people feel fear, um,and it's not something that, you know,
we generally take time, you know, weget angry, like I get angry at people.
Um, but to really take the time andsay, let me understand your fear.
Like what, what, what is, why doyou feel so insecure in this world?

Jenny (25:12):
You know, where I go immediately, personally is shame.
That's where I go.
Instead of fear, it's shame as a, youknow, I would consider myself liberal.
Um, but I go immediatelyto, to shame and, and self,
um,

(25:33):
I don't want to say hate, but that seemstoo strong for where I am now, but I have
in the past, definitely hated myself foreverything that I, that I benefit from,
you know, in terms of race and racism.
And, um, that's my knee jerk.
Of course I'm working to change that,but, uh, because that doesn't help

(25:56):
anybody, but yeah, that's, you know,Amy, you're talking about fear and I
was thinking, oh man, you know what?
Mine is
shame.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Loran (26:08):
I wonder how shame and or fear is showing up in the classroom right now,
when we're talking about race and racism.
Amy.
Do you have any experience with that?

Amy (26:18):
Yeah, and I mean, in showing up, not just among students, but among faculty.
Right.
Um, I'm really, I had, I've had a toughrun, like as a, as a teacher in the
racism sequence, both teaching onlineand then in person, um, and you know, a
lot of growing, but a lot of pain, um,a lot of, sort of anxiety on my part.

(26:42):
Um, some shame, um, and disappointmentin myself, um, you know, and,
and being ill at ease a lot.
Uh, and I remember that was in the class.
You know, 20 years ago that I teachand it was during the OJ Simpson
trials and I White person from NewHampshire had grown up and gone
to a predominantly White college.

(27:03):
Like I was, I just, I felt, I felt soclueless and I, so I think, I think,
yes, I think that that shame and fearshowing up, um, not only for White
students, but a lot for White studentsand some of it looks like I'm afraid,
I'm going to say something mean orhurtful that I don't realize, or I'm
going to say something inappropriate.

(27:25):
And so I'll just, youknow, I'll just be quiet.
Um, and some of it ends up coming out asanger, like resentment that you're, you
know, that, that, that I'm somehow, youknow, you're trying to, you're trying to
rewrite your near the narrative, right?
Like we've along what we, you know,we grew up with some version of a
narrative about US history and aboutour ancestors, you know, our White
European ancestors or our other ans-.

(27:47):
And.
You know, to come in and to have on packthat, and it, it forces us to change,
you know, our sense of, I think notjust who we are as Americans, but who
we are, you know, within our family andwithin our, you know, as individuals.
Um, and that's so such hard work, um,in class today, or it's hard to create

(28:07):
a loving environment for that to happen.
You know, people talk about safe, butI'd say like a loving environment.
It's really hard to do that.
Um, um, especially acrossrace, across class.
Um, and the last thing I want to do isask students of Color and particularly
Black American students to come in, youknow, and to be gentle with everybody,
because it just seems like, you know,like we, you know, an inappropriate ask.

(28:32):
Um, and so, you know, Loran, you knowthis we've, we've moved to a model
that we have classes across race,and we have some racial affinity
groups to try to create a space.
Th that can, that can do some of that,that work, um, with White people.
Um, and I feel like we're just startingto lean into how do we do that?
Well, which is why I'm soexcited about The Spillway.

(28:55):
Yeah.

Jenny (28:55):
That's one of the things that I love the most is, um, Loran has created
this space to have those conversations,to explore these feelings, like the fear
and shame and other things that come alongwith being a White person in America.
And, um, Take it off of thedoorstep of people of Color.

(29:16):
Because I think when, um, you know,George Floyd died, there was a lot of
White people reaching out to peopleof Color being like, what can I do?
And, and that caused its own problems.
And so Loran has made bravely, madethis space where we can come in and have
these conversations like we're havingnow, which I think is really wonderful.

Loran (29:40):
I think it's also hard too, because Amy, as you were talking about
trying to create a loving space, that'sconsistent what I'm trying to do with
The Spillway and especially the socialmedia pages for The Spillway and they
have become anything but that in that,as soon as we start talking about
race, then, oh wait, you're racist.

(30:01):
Because the person who was talkingabout race is the person who's racist.
Um, and racism doesn't exist anymore.
It was on death's doorstep and you'rebringing it up again or "thanks.
Obama, everything was fine until Obama".
And so there's this huge pushthere's huge pushback that race,

(30:21):
um, should remain colorblind.
We should go back to colorblind racism.
That was so prevalent in my,at least my socialization.
I still remember growing up in GrandJunction, Colorado, there was a bus
stop poster and there was this, um,like a conference table and there
were two like cutouts of people,just the, the shadows of the mis-.

(30:45):
Silhouette.
So you can actually see them.
And one person said, o"h,ask that person over there."
And then the other person said, oh, "askthat Puerto Rican person over there".
And then they crossed outthe word," Puerto Rican".
And then underneath it said,"a person is just a person."
And I remember like thinking, "oh yeah,person is just a person that person's

(31:05):
not Puerto Rican, they're a person."
And that was so foundational for meand how I started to think about race.
And I could barely evenstart to read at this point.
I think I probably had to havea parent translate this for me.
And so what the, what was on the sign.
Um, but I am, I'm thinkingabout, it's a weird tangent.

(31:29):
Um, I'm thinking about, um, creatingspace, creating love, um, and making
sure that students, our clients or peoplewho are like entering The Spillway or
even our classrooms Amy are doing so ina way that they are also feeling that
there's value there, that there's valuein their vulnerability or within, well,

(31:54):
I guess let's go back because in oneof these other episodes, Jenny and I
were talking about White women tears.
And can White women cry.
Um, and so is it possible for Whitewomen to show up in a classroom
setting and cry thinking about racismand how it impacts us as White people
or how it impacts folks of Color?

Amy (32:15):
I know the, the, the, what the reference to White women's tears, and I've
heard it in several different, severaldifferent contexts, including a chapter
in Robin D'Angelo's book, White Fragility.
Um, and I feel like there there'sso many different levels, right?
So the, the level of White women showingshock and dismay, um, you know, like the

(32:39):
realization, like, you know, some of thatcan, can, can, can be burdensome in a
classroom and, and, and White women beingcalled out and then being the ones who
are somehow the victim, like I know thosetwo things can be really problematic.
Absolutely.
There has to be space, right.
To cry about, you know, whether it'swhat happened under slavery to Black,

(33:06):
you know, to Black Africans, to, towhat ancestors did to the implications
for us today, to how hard it is tohave these conversations, to what
it's like to go home, to name yourstate and have Thanksgiving dinner
with family that are so objectionable.
Um, so.
No, I think that we're all.

(33:28):
Yeah.
I think there has to be room.
We have to make room.
I have not my classroom.
I think that maybe the White affinityspace might be a better place for that,
because I think that's vulnerability.
There has to be, there has to beroom for anger just as there is
room for Black women's anger, right?
If that's sort of the stereotype Whitewomen's tears, Black women's anger.
And for, for, you know,for Black women to cry.

(33:50):
And I say women because most, youknow, most of the people in our
social work classes are women.
We have increasingly a number oftrans and non-binary folks too.
Um, and a few male men, but it,you know, it really is social
workers is dominated by women.
So, um, you know, if we're talkingabout vulnerability, creating room
for vulnerability, um, yeah, I thinkwe absolutely have to make room

(34:11):
for the the anger on the tiers.

Loran (34:14):
This reminded me of the, uh, the ability to be on zoom and go to
zoom classes for the past two years andengaging in social change conversations
in the comfort of your own home.
Um, and being able to tap intothat from your kitchen table and
how that can feel almost easierto tap into that vulnerability.

(34:38):
And this was just my train of thought,but that I went directly back to, uh, the

work that you did on The Penn Experience: Racism, Reconciliation, and Engagement. (34:43):
undefined
You actually could.
Could you just explain a littlebit about what this project was?
Kind of the implications of thiswork too, and what they, what
they've shown SP2 and Penn Dental.

Amy (34:58):
When, you know, it was typical of my career, you know, there was,
there was an idea that, you know,sort of was workshopped and actually
came initially from students.
And then one that I ran with withanother faculty colleague, but that
has morphed into something much biggerand into more interesting than we could
have imagined as the world has shifted.
Um, but we.

(35:19):
In our setting, um, in, in our program atThe School of Social Policy and Practice
our social work students take a twocourse sequence in race about racism.
And the second one is more intersectionaland looks at gender and social change.
Um, but you know, twofull semesters required.
Um, and it there's beenconflict with that.
We've taught it for 50 years,like five, zero years, and there's

(35:42):
been conflict and limitations.
Um, and it's, it's the kindof thing that's never, you
know, we never quite get.
Right.
Um, but always trying to grow thecourse, um, and students of Color.
And I say some other and White studentswho were more, um, we're more customed
to talking about issues of race andracism were, were lamenting that so many.

(36:04):
The students came in and now this was,you know, mostly they were White students
and young students coming in who hadno preparation for the conversations.
Right.
They were new to the conversations ofthe idea of White privilege and White,
um, um, White supremacy and, you know, anew to understanding about slavery, about
their families and how they've benefited.
Um, and that it just made it,it made it really hard to talk.

(36:29):
In the classroom and to watch sortof folks having the steep learning
curve and other people who were at adifferent point in the conversation,
um, you know what, I'm simplifyingit, but, but basically it was a class.
It was, it was feelingreally it wasn't working.
Um, and so what the, some of thestudents suggested was that we have a
pre-course that everybody, before theystart to racism sequence, everybody has
some, um, basic introduction to issuesaround White supremacy and racism.

(36:53):
And so we created an onlineclass, um, and we were thinking
an online asynchronous class.
So mostly for efficiency.
So before anyone started in,initially it was social work and
then it became dental medicine.
We teamed up together that wewanted to have folks at least
introduced to some basic concepts.
We wanted people toknow about, um, history.

(37:15):
Um, scientific racism, um, and, um, otherforms of racism at Penn at the University
of Pennsylvania, we wanted people toknow about issues in Philadelphia.
Like, you know, like what was theslave trade like in Philadelphia?
People don't think aboutthat, um, necessarily.
And what are some of the currentways that racism plays out?
Um, but also like implicitbias and microaggressions, um,

(37:36):
colorism, xenophobia, antisemitism.
Um, we wanted folks to know have a basicunderstanding of all of these concepts
before they came in the classroom, youknow, so we put together in a package.
Expecting resistance, right?
I mean, not necessarily resistance to thecritical race theory that was embedded
in that, but just resistance to forcingeverybody to do this before, um, you

(37:59):
know, and create carving out space.
Um, and, and then George Floyd wasmurdered and Breonna Taylor was murdered.
Um, and we had in Philadelphia, Youknow, by that, that summer, um, all
kinds of protests, um, and policeresponse and violent police response.
Um, so the context in which we launchedthe class was very different from

(38:20):
the context in which we created it.
And it meant there wasno resistance, right.
There were, everybody was desperate.
Like everybody is desperate tolike, we need to do anti-racism
work and oh, you have thiscourse, let's, let's run with it.
Um, so we're, we're, we're headinginto our third year of doing it.
Um, still not meeting a ton of resistance.
Um, but, um, now I'm forgetting whatyour original question was about it.

Loran (38:46):
Um, that's really great and really helpful.
Um, it was, uh, I think it's, what areyou learning through this process and
how are, how are White people receivingthis or what is the kind of feedback or
the experience of the White students?
Uh, and possibly even like White faculty.

Amy (39:04):
Yeah.
So there's been overwhelmingly,we've had positive feedback.
Um, you know, and, and the students,you know, we have majority White
students at, in, in these, both ofthese schools, um, significant Chinese
population like Chinese born, um,that's the biggest nonWhite population.

(39:24):
Um, and then, you know, a number of,um, US born people of Color as well,
like sort of in the, in the mix.
And then overall we've hadpretty positive response.
Um, we definitely, um, had somefeedback that we weren't talking
about anti-Semitism in a appropriateway or a thoughtful enough.

(39:44):
way and some of that frustrated meand some of it, I learned a lot.
Like I had a lot ofconversations with folks.
People have had to teach mea lot about how to do that.
We, um, you know, in terms ofresistance, you know, some of it.
Was able to dismiss a bit, but, youknow, I think it's given me more empathy.
What is it to be politically conservative,um, and to have different ideas about

(40:07):
racism, how much of this is ideological?
Like, can we really say, everybody needsto know about critical race theory?
Um, you know, and, and, and there wasa little bit of feedback that said
that, you know, definitely a smallpushback that, that, that we're selling
some kind of selling, uh, like, uh,we're, we're pulling a, up a particular
towing, a particular ideological line.
Um, and I'm sensitive to that.

(40:27):
I mean, What the academy reallystill needs to be a place of,
lots of, um, competing ideas.
Um, there are some people whocomplained again, very few of outright
feeling oppressed as White people.
And I, you know, I think that's partof this larger narrative and I was not
particularly sympathetic, um, to that.
Um, but the other stuff I've learned isjust, is like how people learn, right?

(40:50):
So this idea of people being home aloneto do this in some ways, I think we
created a non-threatening environmentfor people to do at asynchronous,
like in their home, in their pajamas.
Um, Th th th they weren't confronted, theyweren't an inter cross racial classrooms.
Um, they weren't havinganyone to challenging them.
They weren't having a facultymember, challenging them.
They weren't having microaggressionsis that, you know, experiencing

(41:13):
microaggressions as they'retrying to learn about this.
But interestingly, the biggest,uh, feedback we've had the most
common comment has been, I wantto have discussions about this.
Like I want, you know, in-person, I wantto sit down on that's really how I learn.
Um, so, and whether people willactually do that as we create

(41:34):
opportunities for that, becausethere's, there's more discomfort.
Um, but I think, you know what, I guessI'm really recommitted as an educator to.
To grow in, right?
Like move beyond this sortof gray consciousness.
And we definitely had some of that.
Like, what am I, I don't know how I'msupposed to answer these questions.
Like, what's the right.
How do I get the right answer?
How do I get the maximum amount of points?
Like, no, this is notwhat education is about.

(41:56):
Right.
I don't care if it's graduate professionaleducation or it's preschool, right?
It's about growing and learning.
And some of that's growing andlearning about yourself, you know,
and that's part of your, whateverprofession you're going to go into.
Um, so how can we create a space where,where, yeah, we really, we really
facilitate and promote that mindsetthat, you know, the growth mindset.

(42:18):
I mean, this is, you know, some of theliterature about how you teach people.
Um, and making them to beopen-minded about learning.
Um, so, and, and I think that alsohits on some of the themes that
you all are talking about in termsof like, how do we not, how do we
not raise everybody's defenses?
Like how do, how do we make,allow people to feel vulnerable?
Um, and how do we, how do we increasepeople's tolerance for discomfort, right.

(42:41):
Because, and, and, and say, justbecause talking about race feels
makes you feel uncomfortable, like,you know, to lean into that, right.
To lean into that discomfort,that that's where the learning is.
Um, you know, I can't say we succeeded indoing this, but I think I have much more
clarity about, um, about, about, about,you know, where to push and what kind of,

(43:04):
uh, environment that you know, that I wantto, I want to help create for learning.

Loran (43:09):
Right.
That was really powerful.
You mean, can I say that before I continueon, um, you reminded me when you were
talking about the role of the teacher, therole of the professor in the classroom.
There's been this meme that'scirculated specifically.
I remember it around the CRTelections from this past November.

(43:30):
And I had to pull it up on my phone here.
And it says, if your studentsknow your political affiliation,
you have failed as a teacher.
Teachers are there to help studentsthink for themselves, not think like
you, and I've always felt like this iswrong, but I also feel like part of it's.
Right.
I'm wondering what yourthoughts are on this.

(43:51):
I'll repeat it again.
If your students know your politicalaffiliation, you have failed as
a teacher, teachers are there tohelp students think for themselves.
Not think like you.

Amy (44:02):
I think it's, I liked, I liked the, I liked the kernel of
truth in that like, absolutely.
Um, but I teach social work, right.
So I teach social work.
And, um, in the Northeast, you know,at a private institution, um, in a, in
an overwhelmingly Democrat, you know,democratic party, democratic city,

(44:23):
um, I'm not, I'm not getting, I'm notgetting, you know, the general population.
Um, so the idea that I would, I couldsomehow present myself in that setting
is, you know, without making clear, youknow, who I voted for for president or
how I stand on some of these issues,um, to me seems, yeah, just impractical.

(44:46):
Maybe if I was in a Nebraska high schoolhistory class, like, like I, that might
feel a little bit, you know, publichistory class, but I also feel like,
um, like students, I feel like studentseven graduate students are so hungry.
To see their teachers as peoplelike to see their humanity.

(45:07):
So the idea that I'm goingto show up without my values,
that feels like empty, right?
Like I, I think I'm, I'm lessconcerned about political party.
There's, you know, there's very fewpeople who identify as Republican,
who, you know, are, you know, endup in my classrooms, but, um, I
identify as Unitarian Universalistsin terms of my religious faith.

(45:29):
And I'm, I feel like that'swhat I'm, I'm careful about.
Like not pushing or proselytizing,but, but I also feel like I've started
to say it at least once, like, justto sort of say, this is who I am.
Like, I'm bringing my whole self, Ineed you to bring your whole self.
Um, you know, and I, you know,and I, I, I, I hope I will have
the judgment to when, when, whenthere's too much of me in that space.

(45:52):
Um, and I'm, you know, and I'm surethere's been students who thought, oh
my gosh, she layed on really thick, um,as the parent of a trans kid, right?
Like, or as, um, you know, as a, um,you know, as a social worker, as a,
you know, liberal religious person.
Um, but yeah, I, I, so I, so Iwill not make any apologies for

(46:13):
wearing my, uh, ideological hearton my sleeve in my classroom.

Jenny (46:18):
And you said something and I I've lost exactly what the
words were, but, um, that meme.
I agree with both of you.
I think there's like, you know,that little bit of truth in
there, but it also assumes right.
The educators aren't people, youknow, that they're just here to impart

(46:39):
information, um, like facts, if you will.
And that's it.
And, um, that's not any of theprofessors that I've or teachers
that I've had in my life.
Who've made a difference to me, um,had that passion, you know, to, to

(46:59):
bring in a little bit of themselvesas much as they felt comfortable with.
And I think it makes a difference tohow you receive information, right.

Loran (47:08):
And that we could, I love that you were talking about impartiality
to me being impartial or being.
Objective is such a White construct.
This power of, oh no, I can actuallyremove myself from the situation
and be this neutral observer.
I don't think that that exists.
I don't think it can exist.
And I think that it exists, um, as a form,as a rule, um, to exert a rule, um, rather

(47:33):
than saying, oh, Hey, I'm a human too.
I'm fallible.
Uh, I have, I have a vestedinterest in this too.
One of the last things that you weretalking about though, Amy before we
wrap up, as you were saying, uh, tolean into uncomfortability, White people
need to lean into uncomfortability.
And I'm wondering as I think a lotabout critical race theory to me,

(47:54):
one of the second tenants after,uh, racism is commonplace, right?
Racism happens every day.
The second I always think of withDerrick Bell is interest convergence.
And ththaten.
Uh, true equity cannot take form,cannot take place until White.
People sign up until White people signon board and say, oh yeah, this is
actually in my interest too, um, I amhurt by racism or I think our school

(48:17):
should be desegregated or, oh, wow.
We actually look really badto the Russians right now.
We should probably sign this 1964civil rights bill so that they
stopped doing some anti US propaganda.
What is the role of trying to, orlike, how do we reconcile interest
convergence and asking White peopleto be uncomfortable to de-center

(48:41):
Whiteness from the conversation?
How do we hold thesethings simultaneously?
Or can we, or should we not be, isthere maybe a fault happening or not

Amy (48:50):
Intriguing question, you know, and I take critical race theory as, you know,
as a lens, not the only lens, but a lens.
At least, at least as we look at policiesand histories, personal motivations.
But if we look at sort of bigchanges, like the 1964 civil rights
act that this, this idea of interestconvergence is really helpful, right.

(49:13):
To power can, you know, powerpeople do not give up power, right?
Like people have ways of protectingpower and they may look like
their concessions to civil rights.
Um, the, the, the callfor decentering Whiteness.
Um, I I'd like, I don't want myWhite students to take that as don't
say anything in class, like don'tspeak up or to a person of Color.

(49:37):
Um, what I wanted to, what I wantde-centering Whiteness to be is just to
an awareness of how you, as a White personwho may have been socialized, you know,
in, in spaces, private institutions,you know, elite institutions like
Penn might make it easy for you to.
Jump in and answer a questionwhere might somebody longer hasn't

(50:03):
been sort of socialized in thosespaces to speak to, to just, to
just be aware, like, am I speaking?
Cause I have something really thoughtfull to say or am I speaking because
it's really comfortable for me.
I feel really comfortable in thisclassroom, in the dead space.
And so I wanna, fill it, I, you know,I don't want White people to shut up.
Um, you know, I do think that listeningto folks of Color is, is a big part of it.

(50:27):
And, and, and, and, and, and readingthings written by people from different
perspectives is a big part of it.
Um, but I don't, I, yeah, I don'tknow if that's an answer to your
question about how you can reconcile.
This idea of interest convergenceand de-centering Whiteness.
Um, I think it's more shining alight on, you know, and Dubois

(50:48):
talks about this, where it's W.E.B.
Du Bois wrote "The Soul of Black Folk"which most of us know brilliant book
about what it is to be Black, um, andto be considered less than, you know,
and everywhere that he turned, but healso wrote "The Souls of White Folk."
Um, and, and he it's remarkablethat, you know, somebody who's
writing, writing so early.

(51:08):
So this early 20th century he's writingabout, like, we just acknowledge
that Whiteness is something that,that, that it's not just about
anti-Black racism, um, that why doesit, he didn't use White supremacy.
Um, but the.
But the people use theirWhiteness all the time.
And I know that is part of my insulation.

(51:29):
As I walk over out through an institutionlike Penn, uh, which is, you know, a tough
place to learn and to be in, to navigate.
Um, and yet I do it with relativecomfort and that's because, you
know, I figured out how to do it.
And a lot of it is because of my, Ithink my socialization as a White person,
um, that makes that relatively easy.

Loran (51:50):
In starting The Spillway, trying to be really intentional
about not wanting the space to feelunloving like we were talking about
earlier and for, it to feel safe.
And so often the feelings of discomfortdon't feel safe or they don't feel loving.
And it reminds me a lot of bell hookswho was talking about our expectations

(52:12):
sometimes as people to never experienceor never want to experience any kind
of friction or, uh, Upset within ourrelationships as if we've never had that
with our partners or with our family.
Um, because it's part of the inevitableand there's no relationship that it's,
it doesn't have a few rocky roads in it.
Um, so yeah, I really appreciateyou expanding on that.

(52:37):
Um,

Amy (52:38):
yeah.
And I think just, just the role ofconflict, like you talk about that, the
role of conflict, and then that's oneof the beautiful things, Loran, about
knowing you and that, that there there'sbeen conflict in ideas and pushback.
And for me, it's led to a lot of growth.
It doesn't, you know, that's notthe same as being uncivil or yelling
at each other or mean, but I thinkthis idea that there can be conflict

(52:59):
and disagreement that we all needto increase our tolerance for that.
Right.
Right.

Jenny (53:05):
And tolerance for grace in those situations too.
Um, I was just thinking about a lot of thething we've talked about that fear and,
um, that lean into the discomfort makesme think of, um, you know, how prevalent
cancel culture is and how prevalent, um,how much it plays a role in people not

(53:27):
being willing to lean in, um, to thatdiscomfort because they're scared, um,
and White, White people, but everyone,you know, at least I believe that it
plays a big role in people not wanting to
lean in.

Amy (53:42):
Thank you for saying grace.
I that's such a, a lovely word.
Right.
And not one that I think ofin this context very often.
Um, and yeah.
Right.
It's it's, it's, it's, it's notone that we use in the university,

(54:03):
whether it's within faculty, becausejust what's playing out among
students in the classroom, playsout among faculty all the time.
They, these tensions and sortof, you know, generational and
intellectual and ideological and, um,across race and, um, the theories.
And, um, yeah, I just, I, I thinkthat's a really, um, I'm gonna,

(54:26):
I'm gonna carry that with me.
That idea of Grace

Jenny (54:30):
Loran's
taught me a lot about grace.

Loran (54:33):
I'm trying to actually embody it myself.
Cause I feel like that's one of thethings that I learned so much in
college and everything so much throughmy life, but then how do I embody it?
How do I put it into my muscles,into my bones and then breathe and
do it and then feel it rather thanjust over intellectualize, anything.
And that I feel likeis where The Spillway.

(54:55):
Just like natural extension of, oh, wait,there's no space to feel this knowledge
to, to actually like sit in that and tryto like, try it on as much as you can, um,
in a space that is loving and graceful.

Jenny (55:11):
So, I mean, the last question we have is, um, if you could say one
thing to White people that are listeningand what would, what would you say

Amy (55:21):
We can do this.
You know, we, we must do it.
We Must do it for our children.
Um, you know, we must do it forare the people of Color we know,
and we don't, we don't know.
Um, and we must do it for ourselves.
Um, I think, you know, you talk aboutthe shame, the fear, that the only way

(55:46):
there's no way around this, there'sonly through this and, um, So there
is, there is no liberation for anyof us without moving through this.
Um, so let's, yeah, let'sfind ways to do this together.

Loran (56:04):
Amy, thank you so much for joining us today.

Amy (56:06):
This is my pleasure.
It was such a nice way to, to yeah.
To spend the afternoon with you two.
And I look forward to, um, I'm just,I'm so excited, Loran, and I'm just
starting to like catch on to like thiswork and what it means and um, yeah.
It's uh, it's it's yeah, it's really,uh, having a great impact on me.
So thank you.
And Jenny was a delight to meet you.

Jenny (56:28):
Thank you so
much.

(56:50):
I like how she, wasn't afraid to say that she had been wrong in spaces
or not wrong, but like hadn't expandedfully or was still a work in progress.
I've really appreciated that becauseso often where, when you're a professor

(57:11):
or, you know, whatever you are, you'reexpected to be perfect or whatever it is.
Right.
And I really think it speaks toher, um, ability to make changes
as an educator that she wasable to be like, yeah, I didn't.
I went in and I didn't do this, or, well,yeah, that made me mad or, you know, just

(57:33):
kind of, um, yeah, I really enjoyed it.
I learned a lot.
I learned I could totally imagineher being just a great professor
and someone to learn from.

Loran (57:46):
Yeah.
It was really lovely to see andto hear, especially ever like
just coming out of grad school, aprofessor being so vulnerable, because
that is so very rarely the case.
It doesn't ever really feel likethere's an emotional connectivity that
you can have, especially when you'retalking about such huge topics, like
social change and within social work.

(58:06):
And I think even when, like, when shewas talking about being your full,
authentic self showing, showing up in aclassroom, like how can you not do that?

Jenny (58:13):
Right?
Like how can you teach without?
Okay.
And I think, I think a lot of peoplethink that teaching is just like, well,
here here's a timeline of events thathave happened in the world or here's how
you solve a problem equation, whatever.
And then all of the introspective work,I think people probably apply mostly to

(58:34):
art or theater teachers or music teachers.
Right.
When, when that heart and that soul, thatshe exhibited exhibits in her answers, it
has to be there in whatever you're doing.
Like any, any, any professor who'smade a difference in my life, whether

(58:56):
it be math, science, you know, hasbelieved in and loved what they did.
And when you believe in andlove something, you can't help,
but bring your passion passion
to it.

Loran (59:07):
Nope.
Nope.
You cannot.
Uh,

Jenny (59:13):
yeah, I just really appreciate it.
You know, I guess in my head as a collegedropout, I feel like a lot of people who
are academically inclined or professors.
Have a know, it all kind of feel tothem, which in a way I think they do

(59:34):
know because, you know, they spentall this money on education and that's
where they spend their lives then.
But I think a lot of it too is,um, and, and a fear like that, same
sort of where that fear and shamecomes from to be like, I don't know.
What do you think?
Which was what Amy, I think didso well was she was just like,

(59:55):
I'm just starting to understandwhat this means and what this is.
And it's, you know, she was really takenwith it and she was willing to dive in.
And I, I think that's speaks volumesof the type of person she is and
the type of educator that she is.
Right.
I was very impressed.

Loran (01:00:14):
And I think too, that there's, uh, it's like push back of.
This is White privilege thatyou didn't have to have these
conversations earlier, or that yeah.
You can be newer to these conversations,but that's because you're White.
Amy.
I think in, as a White person isshowing me, yeah, we can be late
to the party and we're showing up.

(01:00:36):
Yeah.
And we're showing yeah.
And we can hold these multipletruths at the same time.
Yes.
There's this privilege that's occurring.
And, uh, Amy is doing a lotof really amazing things.
And then how can I embody that andtry to then do that in my own work and

Jenny (01:00:52):
taking risks in that could potentially, you know, make her career
harder, you know, make her trajectoryand her career more difficult,
but saying, this is what's needed.
This is the work that's needed.
These are the spaces that are needed.
Um, and using her privilegeis such a weird word.

(01:01:13):
Uh, but e-- but I guess using thatfor lack of a better word, to, to
open up these conversations andhave the conversation that we.

Loran (01:01:22):
Right.
That's advantages.
I think the

Jenny (01:01:25):
Advantages,

Loran (01:01:26):
right

Jenny (01:01:26):
yeah.

Loran (01:01:27):
Um, for me, going through social work programs in both the
undergraduate and graduate levels, youare taught to have empathy, compassion,
and understanding for your clients.
Doesn't matter who your client is.
You're going to have those things,

Jenny (01:01:45):
right?
You need to have

Loran (01:01:47):
those things, right.
And that's the National Associationof Social Workers, Code of Ethics.
It's just what you do.
You have an ethicalstandard to meet of care.
And if you don't meet that care,then people can file grievances
against you as a social worker.
And so it's not necessarily whatto think, but it's, yeah, it is.
It's a how to think, butit's a, what to think.

(01:02:08):
It's an oh no, every person has value.
Every person is precious.

Jenny (01:02:13):
Every person is precious.
And I think Fred taught me to love,and Amy taught me to have courage, you
know, to, to look at situations withan amount of, of like, okay, that's
scary, but how am I going to enter it?

(01:02:34):
You know?
Yes, I'm afraid or, you know, whatever,but how, how can I move forward into it?
But I think both are

Loran (01:02:40):
needed love and courage in the role of racial equity
ab-so-freakin-lutely yeah.
Those are two amazing pointsthat I definitely feel as well.
Yeah.
I feel like with Fred it's about,for me, I think yes there's love,
and I think there's also the, theunconditionality of the human existence.

(01:03:02):
Oh, yeah.
That to me, like it's really hard.
And then with Amy, there's just so muchchange that she's been trying to enact
both within her own life, but also withinthe university and within her classroom.
But it feels like change isalmost limitless or like that
our power is limitless and thatpower power is not limited.

(01:03:28):
The whole concept of poweris a social construction.
And so if you say that you don'thave power, how can you tap into it?
How can you build a connective power?
Uh, and power is onlylimited by your imagination.
Like, yes, there's like politicalpower, there's social power,

(01:03:49):
but then there is your power.
One of the things that I learned inlaw school, it was from, uh, Stacey
Abrams, uh, "Minority Leader."
Uh, and she talks a lotabout power being infinite.
Uh, the having limitless power means beinga citizen with moral purpose to ourselves.

(01:04:13):
We are not in traffic.
We are the traffic and thatdistinction, uh, defines our ability
to harness and, uh, actually likeembody our, our sense of power.

(01:04:33):
And I, I really think that Amy islike our time here with Amy really
drove that point home for me today.
The, the limitless ness ofour power as compassionate
understanding empathetic patients.
People trying to do good in this world.