White LGBTQIA+ People & Trystan Reese

What does it mean to be White and LGBTQIA+?

Here we sit down with Trystan Reese (seriously, just Google him) to talk about what it means to hold the identities of White and LGBTQIA+ in the US today.

Some questions include:

• What does it mean to be a person who is both White and Queer? A person who is White and trans?
• Is there a difference between a White Queer person and a Queer White person?
• What patterns are you seeing within White queer and trans community as it relates to racial justice?
• How do we make sense of the vast overlap in the Venn diagram of White trans and queer culture and cancel culture?
• How do we show up intersectionally?

Trystan Reese is an established thought leader, educator, and speaker, focusing on issues of transgender inclusion, social and gender justice, diversity, equity, and inclusion. He is a professionally trained facilitator and curriculum designer, studying under Rev. Dr. Jamie Washington at the Social Justice Training Institute, mastering the art of anti-racist facilitation, consulting, and coaching. He studied Intercultural Organizational Development under Beth Zemsky and was mentored by Trina Olson from Team Dynamics. He has completed two immersive leadership training programs at Rockwood Leadership Institute and learned management skills and conflict resolution strategies from Leadership Development in Interethnic Relations. Trystan has also been organizing with the trans community for nearly two decades and has been on the frontlines of this generation’s biggest fights for LGBTQ justice.

Trystan launched onto the global stage as “the pregnant man” in 2017 when his family’s unique journey gained international media attention. He was invited to give closing performances for The Moth Mainstage in Portland, Albuquerque, and Brooklyn; the video of the Brooklyn event has garnered over 2.5 million views. Trystan partnered with many major media outlets, including CNN, NBC, People, and Buzzfeed, to bring his message of love and resilience to the mainstream.

As the founder of Collaborate Consulting, Trystan provides customized training solutions for individuals, organizations, and communities interested in social justice. He has trained hundreds of medical providers on LGBTQ inclusion, has delivered keynotes at dozens of conferences and convenings, and released his first two books just last year, “The Light of You” a book for 3-5 yo reading levels and then a book for older folks “

Episode Transcript

Jenny (00:01):
But it can- so his last statement was the first time
since Fred, that I've cried on
the podcast.

Loran (00:13):
What about this one made you cry or did like, felt so
deeply emotionally resonant?

Jenny (00:19):
The, the, you need to be, I mean, I'm going to need to listen to it again.
Cause I think I was also justlike bubbling over with emotion.
So I was listening and not listeningat the same time, but I think the
directness of like, you need to becomfortable in your own skin, comfortable

(00:41):
with who you are as a White person.
And that way you can showup in anti-racist spaces.
With confidence, speaking with confidence,making mistakes with confidence.
And I was like, oh yeah, I don't...
no.
No idea.

(01:03):
And I think that's whathe does for people.
Is he, like, he's really friendly, buthe comes in and he likes strips you bare.
Right?
So that you can move forward.
Yeah.
Like there's no, there's no.
Yeah.
Like even when you asked himwhy he was here, he was like,

(01:24):
well, I'm a loyal friend.
And also, um, what else did he say?
He said, I'm a loyal friend.

Loran (01:34):
Yeah.

Jenny (01:35):
That's work.
That needs to happen.
Yeah.

Loran (01:36):
Summarizing that

Jenny (01:39):
it wasn't like, oh, well I've, you know, engaged, like looked at your
blah, blah, blah, or blah, blah, blah.
You know, it was like, thisis why these two things.
This also doesn't have to go inthis podcast, but I have, how
did you feel was interested?
Cause I didn't have the monitor on, causeI was looking at the questions when he

(02:02):
said, you know, as a typical White person,you went to the blah, blah, blah to you.
And I was like, oh

Loran (02:10):
my God.
Yeah, no, I appreciate it.
That, because that is what I do.
And I think that that's the, yeah, I'mgoing to intellectualize something,
especially because I feel, I feelscared to be vulnerable around
my gender in this space because Idon't want to center her my gender.
Because they have shame aroundcentering my gender and what that's

(02:33):
done to relationships that it's like,oh no, no, no, let me not go to this
emotional place around my gender.
My therapist is workingovertime on this question.
They were very scared.
They were like, oh, so you're in this.
You don't have to worryabout your gender anymore.
And I was like, oh shit, that's areally interesting way of putting that.
Yeah.
Um, but it is, I'm going to immediatelygo to an intellectualizing level.

Jenny (02:57):
And also that's how you process the world too, as a human.

Loran (03:02):
Right.
But also we have a mentalexperience and emotional experience
and a physical experience.
And I was only showing up in a mental,out, in a physical way, like even like
mentioned that my heart was racing, butlike my emotionality was so disconnected.
Right.

Jenny (03:16):
Yeah.
Even the way you said it, you werelike my heart's racing and then also
this thing, like it was sort of, yeah,

Loran (03:22):
yeah, yeah.
Like two thirds of my body was there.
It was like showing up, but it was,I, to me, it was really helpful.
And also there was like on recording.
I mean, there's so many different timesthat it's like fucked up in this podcast.
Um, but I'm here to dothe work with everybody.
I'm not some, like, you're not

Jenny (03:43):
already.
Fixed or whatever, causethat doesn't exist,

Loran (03:48):
right?
Yeah.
This ideal of perfection ofwithin this space, have I been
working on it a little bit longer?
So I know some different things.
Yeah, sure.
Uh, yeah, but I, yeah, let'sthe, he was talking about like
being messy or being imperfectaround like that's, I'm there too.

(04:09):
I think when you start a business or whenyou run a business, there's this weird
fucking ballsy that you're just supposedto have all your fucking shit together.
Um, and I got a lot ofshit together, I think.

Jenny (04:24):
Yeah.
More than I have.
So there you go.

Loran (04:28):
*singing* it's
not a competition

Jenny (04:51):
Sure.
Is

Loran (04:53):
um, The Spillway podcast, we talk about what it means to be White in the
U S today without supremacy or shame.
And the ultimate goal here is tomove beyond supremacy, culture
and shame culture, and invite morecompassion, understanding, empathy,
and patience into the heart ofWhite people and White culture.
We're doing this as wait.
People are just beginning toacknowledge the real ways that

(05:14):
our humanities and futures are allintertwined and inextricably linked.
Despite the fact that people of Colorhave been saying this for centuries.
Because we can have so manydifferent experiences within this
identity of big White and Whiteness.
This first season is devoted toexploring White people and White
culture at the intersection ofgender and right out of the gate.

(05:36):
And episode two, we spoke withbreakthrough for men, founder,
Fred jealous about White men.
And in episode four, with the amongmany things, co-founder of, we
are finding freedom of Angela andWeiss who works with White women.
And while both of these episodes usethese broad categories of women and
men, we thought it was important todig even deeper and hold space for

(05:58):
gender nonconforming non-binary andtransgender people who some of us
identify within these categories ofwomen and men and some of us don't.
If you've never listened to an episodeof The Spillway podcast or heard the
origin story of The Spillway, you wouldn'tknow yet that gender nonconforming
non-binary and transgender justice andliberation has been my, kind of like my

(06:20):
bread and butter for the past decade.
And I use the shorthand G NB T for gender nonconforming
non-binary and transgender folks.
But my work in the community.
Broadly LGBTQ youth and youngadults inspired me to go to grad
school and come out with threemasters from an Ivy league school.
And I say this because thiswasn't a decision that I took

(06:43):
lately or cheaply through thiseducation work and field hours.
I came to truly understand thetransformational change that comes
through interest convergence.
When says, people says genderpeople show up for GLBT justice,
systemic and interpersonal shit gotfixed a lot faster, a lot faster.

(07:05):
And seeing that there weren't alot of White people consistently
fighting for racial justice.
I refocused my trajectory inthe last semester of loss.
And in changing this trajectory,the oddest thing happened nearly
every White LGB and GNB and person.
I considered a confidant, a comrade orally within broadly the social justice

(07:26):
movement, this particular group of people,a family refused couldn't didn't know
how or wouldn't support my work publicly.
I could jump on a phone call orgo for a long walk with other
White, LGBT, or Jean BT people.
And we couldn't stop talkingabout The Spillway or the work of
White people in racial justice.

(07:47):
And at the same time, they couldn'tdo something as simple as publicly
commenting on our social media, sharingour work with friends or family, how
even liking more than two or three posts.
And I thought maybe it was isolated toindividual experiences and it was just
these specific weight, LGB and GBT folkswho I knew didn't know how to publicly

(08:09):
support a friend or a family member.
Who's starting a new adventure or workingin racial justice as a White person.
But then I started asking White,queer and trans folks who work in
racial justice or racial justice,adjacent spaces to be on the podcast.
And I couldn't get anyone to respond.
This episode was supposed to be sandwichedbetween episodes two and four, but

(08:32):
I got six different rejections frompeople, people who fancy themselves,
community leaders and social justicethat mostly came in the form of not
responding to my emails or referrals.
So this episode just kept gettingpushed back further and further.
I was afraid we wouldn't be ableto include it in season one.
So what the fuck is going on?

(08:54):
My thought was, if I'm doing somethingwrong, surely a friend or a family
member would tell me my therapistpointed response to that was, well,
maybe this is them telling you we canhave this conversation privately, but
we don't talk about this publicly, butwhy is this airing our dirty laundry?
Or is it a conversation we needto have when companies not over.

(09:18):
And then of all people, Tristen,Reese emailed me the Tristen race.
For those of you who haven't tuned intotrans and queer liberation in the past
five or six years, Kristin Reese is anestablished thought leader, educator and
speaker focusing on issues of transgenderinclusion, social and gender justice,
diversity, equity, and inclusion.

(09:38):
He is a professionally trainedfacilitator and curriculum designer
studying under Reverend Dr.
Jamie Washington at the socialjustice training Institute
mastering the art of anti-racistfacilitation consulting and coaching.
He studied intercultural, organizationaldevelopment, other Beth Sinsky and was
mentored by Trina Olsen for team dynamics.
He has completed two immersiveleadership training programs at

(09:59):
Rockwood leadership Institute andlearn management skills and conflict
resolution strategies from leadershipdevelopment in inter-ethnic relations.
Trustin has also been organizingwith the trans community for nearly
two decades and has been on thefront lines of the generation's
biggest fights for LGBTQ justice.
Tristan launched under the globalstage as quote, the pregnant man in

(10:21):
2017, when his family's unique journeygained international media attention,
he was invited to give closingperformances for the moth main stage
in Portland, Albuquerque and Brooklyn.
The video in Brooklyn event hasgarnered over 2.5 million views.
Tristen partnered with many major mediaoutlets, including CNN, NBC people, and

(10:43):
the Buzzfeed to bring his message oflove and resilience to the mainstream.
As the founder of collaborativeconsulting, Tristin provides customized
training solutions for individuals,organizations, and communities
interested in social justice.
He has trained hundreds of medicalproviders on LGBTQ inclusion has
delivered keynotes at dozens ofconferences and convenings and

(11:06):
released his first two books.
Just last year, the light of you, abook for three to five-year-old reading
levels and then a book for older.
How we do family fromadoption to trans pregnancy.
What we've learned aboutlove and LGBTQ parenthood.
He is married to his partner, Beth,and they live in Portland, Oregon with
their three kids, Lucas, Soli, and Leo.

(11:26):
They are very happy trust scent.
It is so wonderful tohave you join us today.
Welcome.
This is so exciting to finallyhave this conversation.
Uh, I don't know if you saw the contextpart of this on the script that we've
worked out for this, but it as, uh,this episode is now I think number

(11:48):
13, maybe 12, I think on the order.
And it was supposed to be number three,we reached out to so many different
people to try to have this conversationand we continually got ghosted or

Trystan Reese (12:01):
no.
Like, did people write you backand say why they could weren't
interested in having a conversation?
No, they just didn't write back at all.

Loran (12:09):
I didn't write back at all at all at all.
And so.
Yeah.
Like two things are coming up for me.
One.
Why did you say yes, cause that feelslike a, just after no after no after
no, uh, what to, you said yes, likelet's have this conversation or this
conversation is important to have,or I want to show up in that space.
Um, but then to, yeah, go ahead.

(12:31):
I'll do one at a time.
Sorry, go for it.

Trystan Reese (12:33):
Well, number one, like I'm a very, very loyal person.
And if a friend asks for afavor, I try to do it, you know?
And so of Angela and being like,Hey, these are some people that
I love that I'm like, great.
I'm happy to have that conversation.
And then number two, thingsare still pretty locked down

(12:54):
here in Portland, Oregon.
And so even if like thingsaren't legally locked down,
there's still so much separation.
And so honestly, like being aguest on podcast is one of the few
social interactions that I get.
It's an opportunity for me to really havelike a deep, thoughtful conversation.
It just happens to be recorded.

(13:14):
And I hope that I don't say anythingthat, you know, causes any kind of harm.
And if I do, that'sfine, I'll hear about it.
And then, you know,I'll try to tend to it.
Um, but it was just a chance for me totalk about something that I really care
about and hopefully be challenged often.
That's what happens with the questions,you know, it deepens my learning as well.
So it's.

Loran (13:32):
That's so great.
Yeah.
You've answered both oneand two that I had help.
Yeah.
Cause it is it's like, why, why did youwant to show up in have this conversation?
Uh, and I think it's also withlike the email that I sent out.
I kind of sending like the sameemail of, Hey, I want to talk about
White people, White people with Whitepeople, uh, so that we can be better.
And this like combined destiny and ourmutuality and our shared fabric of destiny

Trystan Reese (13:58):
combined best.
What

Loran (13:59):
did you say?
Combined destiny?
Oh,

Trystan Reese (14:01):
combined destiny.
Yes.
Yeah.
I mean, ever since, I mean, I've beenworking with White people for years, but
ever since I've heard Resmah Medicam in aninterview basically say like, he doesn't
want to work with any White people whohaven't been working with White people
creating a new White culture for them.
Years.
I was like, yes, great.

(14:22):
I'm on the right track, you know?
Um, cause that's what I feel called to do.
Um, but I think maybe one of thereasons that people go to do is
because it is so fraught, you know,it is, it's almost embarrassing at
times to be like, oh, I'm a Whiteperson that works with White people.
That's just not our, I don't think there'sa large cultural understanding of how
very important that work actually is.

(14:44):
Um, particularly for people whoare brand new to this work, it
feels very counterintuitive.
And unfortunately thatnewness, I think sits, right.
Like one of the other markers of thatnewness is like so much externality, so
much, you know, performance, um, thatunfortunately you kind of hit that spot
where people who are new are like, ohmy gosh, you shouldn't be doing that.

(15:07):
And also I want to talk about how youshouldn't be doing that, like really loud.
Um, so, so yeah, it can be.

Loran (15:15):
Well, I think with that scariness, the thing that was, I think, striking
for me was, and I think we're going tostart jumping into the questions here.
Um, I noticed that every single personI was having this conversation in
private, uh, and just my social circleby who I am was a majority of lake

(15:36):
GLBT folks, LGBT folks, um, just likethis beautiful LGBTQ rainbow of like
family members that I'm surrounded by.
And we would have these conversationsabout White people and showing
up in racial justice in private.
But as soon as this conversation wentpublic and I'm making social media
posts, creating a podcast, trying toget people into this conversation,

(15:58):
that's where there's a wholeother level of ghosting occurred.
And so it almost felt very.
Uh, intentional, but also curious oflike, what is going on with this overlap
with queer folks, with trans folks,uh, who are so invested in this work
in private spaces, why can't we thentranslate that into public spaces?
I'm wondering if you have any thoughtsabout the kind of intersection of gender

(16:19):
and sexuality and race and how we tryto show up in spaces collectively?

Trystan Reese (16:23):
Yeah, I mean, I can't speak for anybody else.
I can just say for myself, you know, beinga queer person, being a trans person, I've
been out as trans and on the front linesof trans movements for over 20 years.
And I think that I know even morelike at a deeper level, the physical,
emotional, spiritual toll of makinga public mistake, um, for me.

(16:47):
Being in the queer movement, like I'vebeen called out, I've been called in.
I've been canceled just likeover and over and over again.
That's part of how you learn.
It's also part of how you getdestroyed by your community.
And so for me, thestakes feel really high.
I'm not naive about what the stakes are.
And so my guess would be that a lot ofqueer and trans folks know that doing

(17:08):
or saying the wrong thing on such animportant insensitive topic comes with
grave consequences for many of us.
Um, and so for me, I know that's whyI have to be really thoughtful and
intentional about who I have thisconversation with what I say when I have
this conversation, you know, who theaudience is, how public or private it is.
So again, like, I don't know, I'mnot other queer people, but for

(17:31):
myself, the stakes just always feelsuper, super, super high because
our community is particularlyprone to destroying each other.
Yeah.

Jenny (17:43):
With that in mind, um, Some, sometimes the simplest
questions are the hardest one.
So, um, what does it mean to be aperson who is both White and queer,
a person who is, you know, White andtrans and you know, of course, like
you said, you can't speak for others,but what, what has your experience been

Trystan Reese (18:07):
where like, in what way?

Jenny (18:11):
Um, so to be, so somebody who's White and queer, what does that feel
like within that community, um, for youin terms of your social justice work?

Trystan Reese (18:25):
Yeah.
You know, it's so funny.
It feels like I used to be aperformer, a professional performer.
And you know, when I was a dancer, the.
You know what you would say whenperformers or dancers are doing
something again, like sort of asbeginners on stage, but what you

(18:46):
would say is, you know, it was good,but I could see the choreography.
Right.
And that means like, you can kind ofjust see them saying, and now I go here
and now I do this, and now I do that.
There's a sort of an awkwardness of it.
And I think I spent like at least 10years in it, in that awkwardness, you
could sort of see the choreography.
And for me, the, it reallyis about right-sizing your

(19:08):
humility and your confidence.
So as a White person, how are you humble?
How are you willing to followthe lead of other people?
But then as a queer person, how doyou trust your voice, your experience,
your expertise, to really be able tobe part of a conversation, be part
of a movement, not be so small thatyou never do anything ever, you know?

(19:32):
And so I feel like it isn't really untilrecent years when I've been able to more.
Fluently more gracefully, do both,you know, be able to be humble and
know, okay, this is the time when I'msitting back and listening and learning.
And when are you confident?
When are you like, okay, I reallydo have something that is needed
in this conversation as a queerperson, as a trans person, as a queer

(19:54):
parent, as a trans person, who'sgiven birth, you know, trying to
figure out what's that ebb and flow.
And the times when I look back andI have the most regrets are when
I was not humble enough or when Iwas not confident enough, you know?
And so that's, that's really been for me.
What does it mean to have someexperiences of marginalization, but some

(20:14):
experiences of privilege is trying tofind that flow and it's always imperfect.

Loran (20:23):
I think with that flow.
There's I I've experienced this asI think when we start go around,
when we're in shared space and youkind of like name your positionality
and share that with everybody.
And I've always been really curious,uh, when wait people show up or
talk, you're either a White queerperson or you're a queer White person

(20:44):
and that distinction that happens.
And I'm like really curious if you like,experienced a difference with that,
because as you're talking about thisflow of the confidence, but also needing
to take up space sometimes within yourvulnerabilities, how we then identify
ourselves and then put ourselves forwardin public spaces, kind of depends on where
we're at with that conversation, right?

Trystan Reese (21:05):
Yeah.
I mean that, that distinctionbetween being a queer White person
or a White queer person, I don'tknow that I'm familiar with that.
I'm wondering if you can say more.

Loran (21:14):
Yeah.
I, so for me it really startedto capitalize itself into this
really beautiful point whenI was in a mixed space and.
A lot of my coworkers would talkabout their experiences, being a Black
people and centering their Blackness.
First, I am a Black lesbian,I'm a Black queer person.
I'm a Black gay person.

(21:34):
Um, but then White people, we wouldshow up and say, oh no, I'm queer.
Oh.
And then wait.
And this Whiteness was almostlike afterthought, uh, to then,
oops, wait, I need to bringthat back into the conversation.
And so I've always, it's been this kindof, uh, it's just something that I've
been more attuned to since I've hearda lot of folks of Color talk about,

(21:56):
oh no, I'm going to send her my racefirst because that is what you see.
That is what you understand thatme first from across the room.
Hmm.

Trystan Reese (22:03):
Um, Well, I mean, I think that's also developmental, you
know, I think when any of us reallybegin to explore our identities, I
think it's very natural that we wantto go to the place of marginalization.
First, we want to really avoidthe conversation about privilege
and the ways in which our livesmay have been easier than others.

(22:24):
And so it's also interesting to thinkabout, well, of course people may
center their Blackness, whereas queerfolks may center their queerness.
Well, yes, we're both centeringour points of marginalization.
We're both censoring theparts of ourselves that feel
most under attack most often.
And I don't think it's until lateron when, you know, it's interesting

(22:45):
to be in mixed spaces and tohave, you know, people of Color,
particularly Black folks center there.
there's this gender identitiesor their heterosexual identities.
And they're really whined to leaninto where as their own privilege, you
know, and not falling back on theirmarginalization similarly for White queer
folks, when are we willing to center ourpoints of privilege and not, you know,

(23:09):
so, so yeah, I think it's interesting forme, my Whiteness is the thing that I feel
colors my life more than anything else.
Um, so I always think of myself asWhite first because it just feels to me
like that's the thing that most, yeah.
Like every part of my life is probablyimpacted most by my Whiteness than

(23:33):
my queerness and my transness thanany other part of my identity.
But that's just true for me.
Yeah.

Loran (23:39):
I think in doing this and in shifting, I think a lot of my focus.
Refocusing away fromqueer and trans justice.
That's what I went toschool predominantly for.
And then shifting into racial justice.
I've begun to notice how frequentlywithin White spaces, White racial
justice spaces, how two-dimensionalthe conversation can be.

(24:02):
And we're only talking about race.
Uh, never have I ever been.
So mis-gendered than when I startedshowing up in weight anti-racist
spaces, uh, even if my pronouns are inthe zoom link where we do a go around
and we're naming our positionalityand who we are and how we like to
be addressed, the mis-genderingjust feels consistent and constant.

(24:25):
And that feels like a scratch.
And I'm.
And then I wonder, is thislike White non-binary human?
When do I start to assert mynonbinary desks in this space?
Because then it might then distractingfrom the racial conversation.
And I don't want to do that.
And so I feel like if you have anypointers tips or tricks as to how
to like navigate the conversationof being consistent in the, the,

(24:54):
um, it's weird, I'm feeling myheart accelerating a little bit.
This feels like more of a tenderquestion than I anticipated.
Uh, when, when we show up for racialjustice and gender justice and
sexuality justice, how do we do that?
Simultaneously intersectionally withoutsacrificing parts of our humanity.

Trystan Reese (25:19):
Yeah.
I mean, firstly, I'd love to hearfrom you more, you know, like
what, what, what do you lose?
What does the group lose when you are?
Mis-gendered
like, what's the impact on you?

Loran (25:35):
On me?
I feel invisible.
Um, in that I'm only beingunderstood in one way, uh, in
this like flattened experience.
Um, it's actually interesting.
I didn't realize that you trainedunder Jamie Washington and, uh,

(25:58):
Jimmy Washington did some trainingsfor an organization that I worked
with and it was only like 16 people.
And so it's this very like intimate space.
Um, and he was very clear.
We only talk about race here, neverdeviate from that conversation.
Never deviate from race whatsoever.
And then that was the first timeI think I was ever in a, uh,

(26:19):
Uh, a training space with race.
And so it's always been this kind ofanchor for me of no, don't deviate.
Don't, don't make this about something.
That's not about race.
And so what I feel like when we gointo like, the what's missing is, oh,
sometimes the rest of the world ismissing when we're only focusing on
one part or that like not the restof the world, but like the rest of

(26:40):
the colors, the rest of the cran box.
It's just like not being used right now.
Cause we're focused on this one note.

Trystan Reese (26:47):
Yeah.
Well, the reason I ask about the impact isbecause what I've found is I think you're
able to frame what is respectful dialogue?
What does it mean to bein community with people?
What does it mean to hold nuance?
Which, you know, Whiteculture hates nuance.
We want things to be eitheror good, bad, this, that.

(27:08):
And I think for me, when I'm ableto frame that part of what it means
to be in a community together is tolean into discomfort and to embrace
nuance and to make sure that peopleare able to really show up fully.
And so to me, being able to assert thatpart of this conversation, poking the
space is that we're going to use the namesthat people want us to use for each other.

(27:32):
We're going to use the pronouns.
We're going to pronouncepeople's names correctly.
We're going to be mindful ofhow much space we're taking up.
When are we, you know, shifting in,when are we shifting back to me?
That's not.
I don't know that doesn'tfeel like a distraction.
It's part of how we're calledto do the work, I think.
And so that's usually how I frame itand I do, if it ends up being useful,

(27:55):
you know, I do think talk about theimpact, you know, that the impact of
White people not being willing to holdnuance, you know, not being willing
to understand that, you know, genderis fluid, the impact that that has on
non-binary people in this space is thesame impact that it's going to have
on people of Color when we bring thosesame ideologies to those interactions.

(28:16):
So, yeah, I mean, I love, love Dr.
Washington's work, obviously.
Um, I did study under him andI think there's a way to say
this is not a distraction.
This is the work is how are we goingto treat each other as White people?
How are we going to show up?
Right.
Um, that doesn't feel like a distractionto me, especially if you want.

(28:38):
Super ideological, which Whitepeople love that the gender binary
is a creation of White supremacy.
Right.
Right.
When you get rid of thatbinary as part of the work.
Yeah, go ahead, Jenny.
No,

Jenny (28:51):
I, sorry.
I'm like just like listening andsoaking and because my work is
not in social justice circles.
Um, what I do every day, um, is not in it.
I, I have been learning to, toengage in these conversations and
they make me super uncomfortablebecause I haven't had the practice.

(29:14):
And, um, in, on one of your podcasts thatyou were on that I was listening to just
kind of, um, you know, doing my research.
Um, you said that the only waythat you can sort of get used to.
Leaning in to being uncomfortable andhaving these conversations is practice.

(29:35):
And I think that's how you learnhow to navigate those spaces.
Not you specifically, but a personis if you, if you just dive in and,
um, you know, obviously you want tobe mindful of other people and the
context within your house that you'rehaving those conversations with.
But I think if you don't, um,just kind of go, go towards it.

(30:00):
And that's what Loran has taught me,um, which has been so valuable is like,
just do it, just get in there and, and,you know, you're going to make mistakes.
Um, but you learn from them.
And I was just thinking aboutthat as you were talking.

Trystan Reese (30:15):
I think that's also why I asked the question of Laura
and about the personal impact.
And of course, like, like a typicalWhite person, you like went immediately
to the Headspace, you know, of like,there's this racial justice framework
that teaches a long haul, long haul, butlike also part of how we manage ourselves
is to really honor that that's harmful.

(30:36):
That hurts that's traumatic.
And, you know, you don't have to do theWhite racial justice person thing either
of being like, well, it's not as harmful.
It, it, none of that matters in your body.
You know, when you have that, like, youknow, you said like, oh no, my heart,
you know, I heard a starting to raise.
It's like, we have to really,we have to tend to, that we
have to tend to ourselves.

(30:57):
Um, and so I think, yes, Jenny, likehaving the conversations in safe
places with other White people, youknow, so we're not causing harm.
Um, and having them from that place,hopefully of curiosity and openness
and, um, and, and wonder, you know, asopposed to what, but isn't this true?
Isn't that true?
No, you know, you can ask like,Hey, how do I balance that?

(31:19):
And, um, and, and that way we'reable to tend to ourselves and not
get into some kind of a weird.
Well, your discomfort, Laura,and about being mis-gendered
is less important than racism.
Like how, who does, who does that help?
You know, like it you're, you know,you really, you deserve to be in spaces
where you are able to show up fully.

(31:41):
And I don't think you're asking for toomuch, you know, to have your basic basic
needs met, which is the pronoun stuff.
You know, that, that'swhat it feels like to me.
Um, but yeah, there reallyaren't Jenny, there aren't
enough spaces for people to be.
You know, to be imperfect, to show up andsay the wrong thing and have someone be

(32:01):
like, Ooh, so here's something, you know,

Jenny (32:06):
wait, just, excuse

Trystan Reese (32:07):
me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, that's like why I have a jobto be honest is like, I am a person who
can create those spaces where I'm ableto as a facilitator to say, Ooh, pause.
So let's talk about that word youjust use and let's do a little rewind.
So tell me more about why you usethat word articulate to describe your
Black colleague, you know, like tohave that kind of a conversation,

(32:30):
um, where people aren't, you know,where shame is it used as a weapon.
Um, but people are really able tolearn and grow because goodness knows.
We need those spaces otherwise,how are we going to learn and

Jenny (32:42):
grow?
Um, speaking of your, your work,how does it, so you touched on it
a little bit, like that's what youdo, you go in and you're like, let's
talk about these words that you'reusing, um, and how they're they're
they may be landing for other folks.
Can you talk a little bit more abouthow your consulting, um, group helps

(33:02):
others navigate and thrive in theinterconnectedness of our world?

Trystan Reese (33:06):
Yeah.
Well, I kind of have theopposite path of Loran.
They said that they studied thequeer and trans stuff, came to
the racial justice stuff later.
Um, my professional training is inanti-racism work and I've really
taken those principles and appliedthem to queer and trans equality
and liberation and justice fights.
Um, and more recently I've reallybeen centering my work more

(33:30):
fully in the queer and trans.
Conversations.
Um, mostly because I really want to makesure that the racial justice work goes to
racial justice, practitioners of Color.
And so there are lots of times when thequeer and trans stuff naturally lends
itself to intersectionality, you know,so it does end up seeping into racial

(33:50):
justice, um, uh, disability, justice ages,um, you know, a lot of those other pieces,
but when it goes too far into that realm,I do try to bring in facilitators, uh, you
know, across lines of identity to do that.
Um, but yeah, I work with,uh, I, um, do quite a bit.
Of one-on-one coaching with Whitestaff members, particularly White

(34:13):
staff members who are the subject ofsome kind of discrimination complaint.
So like if a staff member of Color goesto the union and says, I believe that
this my White manager is mistreating mebased on my race or based on my gender.
If it's a man in a non-binary or a person,a woman, um, I'm often like an external

(34:35):
coach that's brought in to help sortof with that White person into shape.
Um, and so that's a lotof the work that I do.
That's actually my most fulfilling workis that one-on-one where again, someone's.
Let's be like, I don'tknow what I did wrong.
I had this interaction and then Ifound out later I did the wrong thing.
I don't get it.
And I'm able to sort of go okay.
Point by point.

(34:55):
Here's what I think happened.
Can you understand why that happened?
Here's what this is connected to.
That's larger.
Like I just used the articulateexample, which I use that as, as an
example, a lot, a lot of White peoplehave no idea that the word articulate
is a passive aggressive inside.
Particularly the Black and Brown people,particularly to Black people, they have

(35:16):
no, they would have no knowledge of that.

Jenny (35:19):
Yeah.
I didn't.
I made that mistake and Loran was like,um, and I was like, oh, people don't

Trystan Reese (35:24):
know, people do know.
I know.
Yeah.
And it is so harmful to Black andBrown folks, particularly Black people.
That, of course, if your White managercalls you articulate in a meeting,
that's going to hit you in a rock lake.
And so it's like, how do we thread thatneedle someone's caused harm, but they
legitimately had no idea that was harmful.

(35:45):
Right.
So that's some of the work thatI do is that one-on-one coach.
Um, yeah, and then I do lotsof large group training.
And again, particularly from that LGBTQplus lens and the trans specific lens, and
I do lots of writing and content creation.
So I help people, you know, createinclusion strategies that are, don't just

(36:08):
show up in June, but are year round mighthelp them rewrite their entire website.
I helped them develop a training series.
I helped their employee resourcegroups, uh, partner meaningfully with
organizations, you know, grassrootsorganizations, um, that kind of work.
Yeah, it's great.
I only work with who I want to.
I worked in the nonprofitmovement for 15 years, I guess.

(36:32):
Um, and I left to start my ownbusiness a year and a half ago and
I feel like I've just hit my strideof like really loving what I do.
Oh, great.

Jenny (36:41):
That is lovely.
I feel like a lot of peopleduring the pandemic where.
I'm going to do my own thing.
Like some, I feel I did that too.
I started my own business and I feellike, I dunno, it was something,
I was just like, I'm I don'twant to work for others anymore.
I want to, you know, do my own thing.

(37:01):
I mean, I want to work with other people,but I want to do, you know, I have a
vision and all that, so that's cool.

Trystan Reese (37:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's been hard, you know, thepandemic has been really difficult.
Um, and so, so, so, so,so many ways, but yes,

Loran (37:16):
you mentioned that you're working more with LGBTQ folks.
And one of the things that we've beenasking since this is like a partner
sibling episode, two White men andWhite women, if we're thinking about
White queer and trans folks, um, we'rekind of asking some of the very same
questions and I'm noticing that they'rekind of like sitting differently or

(37:38):
fitting differently in this framework.
Cause we've just kind of copied and pastedsome of the questions just so we could be
consistent as we like do this communityassessment of Whiteness and White people.
Um, but do you see, or are youfinding, um, any patterns within
White queer and trans communitiesas it relates to racial justice?

(37:59):
Okay.

Trystan Reese (38:00):
Well, primarily I don't work with queer folks.
Um, primarily I work with straightfolks on their LGBTQ, like acumen
and, um, competency and fluency andall of those things and humility.
Um, yeah, I mean, I've done a lotof work with White queer folks.

(38:20):
Um, and I'm considered continuingto see the same patterns now that
I have been over the last 20 years.
Um, which is this obsession with,um, putting others down in order to
avoid thinking about your own work,you know, it's, um, it's a point
of real, real trauma for me, um, istreating each other as disposable.

(38:45):
Uh, it it's, it's just, it'sincredibly painful to watch
community members get treated.
Badly by other community membersover and over and over again.
And I keep thinking, we're goingto learn, you know, I keep thinking
about some of the sematic work that'strickled into the mainstream, you
know, with some of the awarenessof trauma trickling in the night.
I just keep thinking, people aregoing to understand like, oh, this

(39:08):
is a trauma response on my part.
And I'm projecting onto somebody else.
This isn't really about them.
And some tweak they did orwhatever, this is really about me.
And I need to do some ofthe healing, you know?
Um, I keep thinking people are gonna,I don't know, kind of assess, like,
what's, what's the goal in my work?

(39:29):
Like, what do I want, doI want like less racism?
Do I want less homophobia feeling still?
Yeah.
Okay.
How do we get there that, and thenlike, what are effective strategies?
Um, how do we build that?
The movement that is, I don't knowthat people are desperate to be a part
of, you know, I just keep thinkingthat shift is going to happen.
And, um, and I've had to sort of developmy own little pockets of community because

(39:51):
I think large scale that's, I would saycontinues to be the, the, the big, the
big pattern theme trend is this obsessionwith rightness, that there's one right
way to do something, um, which is reallyrooted in Whiteness and White culture.
And it's, um, sucks.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Loran (40:10):
That's sucks so much
fucking eat it, eat it.
I didn't even realizethat I was, oh, hi friend.
I didn't even realize,sorry, my dog barked.
Um, I didn't realize that I was evenin that culture until I started to
push back even just like the little bitslightest and then it was, oh, wait.

(40:33):
You're right.
I'm not conforming to the ideology,even by like a degree difference.
Oh shit.
Oh this, oh, now I'm getting othered.
And it was really intense tolike, feel that for the first
time, um, that I had done that toother people of, oh no, no, no.
I need you to be ideologically in lineand I need you to tow this mine forever.

(40:57):
And if you don't, uh, we can'tbe in relationship and thinking

Trystan Reese (41:03):
about something like, just not just, we can't be in a
relationship, but you are a bad person.
When a capital B capital P youare a bad person, you are toxic.
And every single person who knows you isalso a capital B capital P bad person.
Yeah.
And you must be ostracized.
Permanently

Jenny (41:24):
and your life must be destroyed.

Trystan Reese (41:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I've been doxed.
My staff of Color have beendoxed because I am a White person
that works with White people.
And some people don't think thatI should be doing that work.
It's rough

Loran (41:42):
what's needed in this moment.
What's needed to meet this momentbecause I think like, even thinking
about The Spillway, it's like ourmission statement is about trying to
focus and recenter, compassion, andlove and empathy and patience into
the core of what it means to be White.
Um, and I feel like if we just, if Inot, we all don't have to do this if you

(42:08):
don't want to, but I like, I just wantto keep like, yeah, this like perpetual.
Okay.
You just fucked me over.
Let's try again.
Okay.
You just fucked me over.
Let's try it again.
And like the welcome, welcome, welcome.
However many times youneed it to hear welcome.
I don't know, but it'sjust it's so I don't know.
I'm rambling at this point.

Trystan Reese (42:30):
Yeah.
I mean, I don't know.
I don't know how we help peoplemore embrace nuance because
there really is a spectrum.
You know, like if someone fucks youover, that's very different than if
someone used a word that you didn'tlike in a tweet six years ago.
Um, if someone is a sexual predator,that's very different than if they had
a mutually destructive relationshipwhen they were 17, you know, like

(42:53):
they're, it's a, it's a spectrum.
You know, somebody postssomething that you don't like.
Again, like that's verydifferent, you know?
And so I think there is like being ableto understand that people aren't capital,
BP, bad people, you know, maybe they didmake a mistake or maybe you were wrong.
Maybe you misinterpreted what theysaid, and you have an opportunity

(43:13):
to just like ask questions andbe curious and try to bridge that
gap between whatever someone did.
And however it hit you, youknow, but, but large scale, like,
I don't know how we do that.
I just don't.
I mean, I've done a lot ofrestorative justice sessions.
I've done a lot of healing sessions.
I do a lot of conflict resolutionmyself as a practitioner.

(43:36):
Um, and there are some peoplethat you're able to do that with.
And some people you're not there tohurt, you know, they really just want to
annihilate people that they disagree with.
Okay.
You know, but how do we make surethat we're able to understand
who are the people who are inthis for the right reasons.
You know, and, and who aren't.

(43:57):
I just don't think we'reable to do that yet.
And I think that's another pattern.
And another failing of, of theWhite queer movement is the
tokenization of queer people of Color.
If one queer person of Color sayssomething, then all the White people
are like, well, that must be true.
Right?
It's like, well, that's not true.
You know, if we, and then if otherpeople of Color jump in and they're

(44:19):
like, I disagree, then everyone'slike, well, you're not Black enough,
or you're not clear enough, or you'renot trans, you know, it ends up being
this really brutal thing like that.
I mean, I left social media.
These platforms are notdesigned to eradicate racism.
These platforms are not designed for Whitepeople to build a better White culture.

(44:39):
Um, they're just not, and Ijust can't be, I just can't.
Be a part of that anymore.
It's really, really detrimentalto Whiteness and queerness.
I left because I couldn't do it anymore.
So I don't know.
That's a long way of saying Loran.
I'm sorry, I don't have an answer.
Go ahead, Jenny.
No

Jenny (44:57):
one.
I'm sorry.
I didn't mean, I was like, um, we'veseen that a lot with folks who do
this work, um, like yourself, um, alot of people that we've talked to,
or, you know, not on social media,like maybe they're on LinkedIn.
Um, but they're not onsocial media and have Angela.
And actually her, what she said is, youknow, because most of Loran's work is

(45:22):
on social media right now because we'rejust starting this out and there, you
know, building, um, building The Spillwayessentially from the ground up, um, But
her advice was to have like a group ofpeople that can respond to trolls, like
your group of what did she call it?
Loran, do you rememberlike the troll patrol?

(45:44):
Yeah, the troll patrol.
Um, and so you've built that right.
Love.
I mean, there's obviously me, but

Loran (45:51):
I, well, I think that was the other part.
I reached out to 10 people who I went toschool with, or people who had expressed
interest in The Spillway 10 peopleand a majority of them are all MSWs.
So they like went toschool for social work.
I heard back from two peopleand other eight people just like
didn't even respond to the email.

(46:11):
Uh, and so, yeah, there's, I've got a, uh,too strong troll patrol on a love them and
make them homemade pasta as a thank you.

Trystan Reese (46:20):
I mean, I've, I've had people call that tone police.
You know that if someone were to callme like, and, and people from the
left who've called me really horrific,hateful, transphobic, homophobic
words, you know, removing those things.
Then it was like, well, you'renot, you don't welcome dissent.
Um, your tone policing, youknow, how dare you tell people

(46:42):
how they should engage with you.
Um, and that's when I said, oh,oh, there's no way to win here.
Okay.
Like people really genuinely, aren'tinterested in creating a better culture.
Okay.
That's fine.
We just have different goals then.
So I need to utilize other tools, um,because this is, you know, I can only

(47:03):
work with people who also want the samething that I do, you know, and there
are enough of them that I don't needto engage with people who are solely
interested in making others feel bad.
I don't need to do that work.
Someone else can do that work.
I also can physically write, I physicallycannot do work with people who are only
interested in destroying people's lives.

Loran (47:27):
Yeah.
Why do you think the Venn diagramis so strong between cancel
culture and the queer movement?
Why is the overlap so strong?
Do you think?

Trystan Reese (47:37):
Oh, I've thought about this a lot.
And it's because it's because of power.
Um, for so many years, perhaps allof our modern existence, the only
social political power that queerpeople have had is the power to shame.
That's it?
We weren't elected officials.
We weren't teachers.
In many cases, we weren't parents.

(47:58):
We weren't bosses.
We didn't have the abilityto hire and fire people.
We didn't have the ability to shutdown businesses or to regulate.
Our only power was to make peoplefeel like crap in the hopes that
they would feel bad enough thatthey would stop doing harmful
things against the queer community.
It was our only tool.

(48:22):
And so we got really used to using it.
And I don't think that thequeer movement has sufficiently
evolved for people to understand.
Like, if you, if whatever, wherethey say, like, if all you have is a
hammer, everything looks like a nail.
People are acting like,all they have is hammers.
You don't.
Just the Emmy bro.
You know what I mean?
Like just email me, just call me.

(48:42):
I am not a nail.
You don't have to hammer me.
Yeah.
And when you're being hammered, youronly response is to protect yourself.
That is it.
That's all you can do.
You know?
Um, and so I just don't think thatwe understand as queer folks that
we have so many other tools we canuse to be in community with each
other, you know, everyone's reallyresponding or reacting from that

(49:05):
disempowered place when we're not thatdisempowered in a lot of ways anymore.
Um, yeah.
That's why I think

Loran (49:16):
just need to sit in that for a minute.
That was big.
Right.
And yeah, it just feels like a lot

Trystan Reese (49:23):
and it's also hard.
It's hard to come to someone and say,Hey, I didn't like what you posted.
Can we have a conversation about it?
That's hard.
It's easy.
It's easy to screenshot something, putit in your Instagram stories and tell
everyone what a bad person this person is.
It's easy to destroy.

(49:43):
Someone's life.
It's easy to call someonegarbage and trash.
That's easy.
It's much harder to come to someone like ahuman and say, Hey, can you tell me more?

Jenny (49:56):
So you're also going to get more likes that way.
If you trash somebody that hits thatit's that dopamine or whatever that,
you know, each time you're like, ohyeah, I'm onto something, you know?

Trystan Reese (50:10):
Yeah.

Loran (50:14):
Looking at the time.
I can't believe it's already time.
Uh, but it's about time forlike our last two questions.
Sure.
Um, Jenny, on the list, is thereanything that you really want to get
out into the open before we do the.
The typical last question.

Trystan Reese (50:31):
Oh, let me do it just a very quick story.
Sure.
Um, to hammer home this point,which is that there was, I was
walking down the street in Portlandand I saw a tote bag in the window
that said, um, uh, say his name.
And I screamed.
I like took a picture of it.

(50:51):
Um, it was against police violence.
I took a picture of it and I got readyto post it to my Instagram stories
for this before I left social media.
And then I was like, no,I'm not going to do that.
I didn't do it.
I put my phone away.
I walked in the store andthey said, are you the owner?
And she said, yes.
And I said, I want to talkto you about your tote bag.
The woman who created that hashtagthat campaign say her name specifically

(51:11):
created it to raise awareness and stopthe brutal murders of Black women.
And she has specifically askedpeople to not change it, to say
their name or say his name becauseit's specifically for those people.
And so.
I don't think it's appropriate for youto have that tote bag in the store.
And she was like, ohmy gosh, I had no idea.

(51:32):
I'll take it down now I'll send it backto the company and I won't sell it again.
And so that's just an example oflike, there is a different way.
There is a different way.

Jenny (51:45):
Yeah.
Cause she could've responded any way.
You have no control over howshe was going to respond.
And so to walk intothat space and be like,

Trystan Reese (51:55):
it's hard.
Yeah.
It's hard but much more effective.
How long would it have taken it, takenfor her to see that hashtag and then
everybody pile on and then she's gotlike 84 DMS about how terrible she is.
Right.
Would she have removed the total.
Maybe not what she have doubled up.
I don't know, but just like anotherway as possible as I'm saying,

(52:18):
okay, go with your questions.
Go ahead.
Right.

Loran (52:20):
That was wonderful.
The like, um, how you had to approachthat conversation too, because
you couldn't run in there and juststart screaming and pointing your
finger saying like, how fucking dareyou, you need to take this down.
It was like, you came in with curiosity,you came in with compassion, you
came in with a desire for relation.
And this work is so relational.

(52:42):
And if we forget that, which weare constantly, then we're not
able to actually like be in goodcommunity with ourselves and
with others that's fucking sucks.

Jenny (52:52):
Well, and also you went in there with that, you know, the
example of articulate you wentin there being like, maybe she
doesn't know, maybe she has no idea.
So here's that information.
And then once she had thatinformation, she was like, oh yeah.
Okay.

Trystan Reese (53:11):
Instead that's the strategy.
Like there are different tactics.
Canceling is a tactic, right.
But it's not the first one.
It's when all the other things haven'tworked, then we go to a boycott, you know?
Um, and I think people justdon't always know that.
And as White people, like we have tobe able to do that work because folks
of Color, they shouldn't have to makesure that their bodies are settled

(53:33):
and that they're going to approachit with curiosity and compassion.
Right.
If we don't want to tone police, people ofColor, we have to tone police ourselves.
We are able to be effective.
I'm not personally impacted by,you know, hashtag say his name.
I'm not Black.
I have no right to get to thatplace of being so activated
that I'm yelling at someone.
I don't have any right to do that.
I got to settle and then bring thatsettled, you know, energy to that

(53:57):
conversation so that she has theopportunity to learn and grow, which
doesn't happen if you come in guns,a place, metaphorically speaking.
Okay.

Jenny (54:07):
Was she White?

Trystan Reese (54:09):
Oh, of course.
Okay.
Yeah,

Loran (54:13):
you have this very literal microphone in your ear right now.
And this is a podcast for White people,um, who are seeking to do this work.
Uh, what do you wanna tell them?
What do you want every Whiteperson listening to this to know?
It's a massive question.
Yeah.

Trystan Reese (54:32):
I mean, I mean, I don't think about every White person
because this work is developmental, youknow, everyone's in different stages.
Um, I think for people who are newer.
Th the work I really encourage,especially people who listen
to podcasts for White people.

(54:53):
Um, I really encourage White folks todevelop a sense of pride around your
White identity to think about not just thethings that you're embarrassed about or
ashamed of, but what are the things likewho are the White people who are doing
the work that you admire and look up to?
Um, what are the parts of yourculture that you are really proud of?

(55:13):
Because really it's only when we'reable to feel settled confidence
secure in who we are, that we're ableto engage with other people and not
tokenize the low color, um, and not,you know, shame ourselves and others.
Um, and then for people who've been doingthis work for a little bit longer, the
advice I usually give is to understandthat, like you don't have to do all
the things, you know, racism, Whitesupremacy, White dominance is in every

(55:37):
aspect of our culture, which is bad news,but the good news is wherever you feel
called to do this work, you're needed.
So, if you're an artist, you don'thave to go marching the streets.
If you're marching the streets,you don't have to be hosting
in a way to affinity spaces.
If you're, you don't haveto do all the things.
If you have social anxiety, don'tgo to a March and don't feel bad.

(55:58):
And if someone else says, well,you're not marching the street,
you're not doing the work.
Fuck them.
You know, there's so manydifferent ways to do this work.
We need everyone and we need everyonein there, you know, genius, Eno.
So I think that's what I see asWhite folks really beat themselves
up because they're not able to doall the things and I'm like, stop.
Just like, let that go.
Um, because you can't do all the things

Loran (56:30):
it did feel, I I'm like still struggling to unpack that shame.
It's like this intergenerational traumaof queerness and transness of the only
way that we are able to get anythingdone was to save the people in power and
shame them people in positions of power.

Trystan Reese (56:53):
Oh,

Jenny (56:54):
also it's like, well then does shame work better than love?
You know, we asked Fred that question.
I think we also asked Amy and Angelain that question, if memory serves,

Trystan Reese (57:05):
um,

Jenny (57:08):
and the, the questions were varying degrees of different things,
except for Fred who was just like love.
Absolutely.
Right.
Um, but it's like if, if queer andtrans folks hadn't done that to start,
would there have been any changes?

(57:28):
Right.
Like if they had, if they haddoubled down on love, like, would
anything have happened becausethey weren't getting love.
So like

Trystan Reese (57:37):
what's,

Loran (57:39):
I feel like, yeah, that one's, that one's so tricky.
And then it's like, if we're notreceiving love, it's really hard
to turn around and then give love.
Sorry.
I need to silence my phone.
I think a lot about like, act up, act upwith so successful for, for many reasons.
But one of them was these likedeployed shame tactics to do public

(58:04):
demonstrations about shaming, themainstream, like SIS hat society, and
saying you're not doing anything for us.
You're literally watching us dyingor you're not even watching us down.
You're just ignoringyour problem altogether.
And that had like tremendous, uh,tremendous, like the tremendous

(58:24):
things for the movement.
Um, but those are like hard concrete,actionable things of, I need you to do
more research on, uh, on HIV rather than,Hey, you've got some unconscious bias
here or there's some racism happening.

(58:46):
Yeah.
I feel like that's what we were shaming.
I'm saying we, as if I wasthere, um, shame was used as this
tactic to get a tangible thing.
And like the tangible thing, whenwe're talking about race and racism
and sometimes not, it's a socialthing to, it's a relational thing.

(59:07):
And so it feels reallydifferent to the place.
Shame for relation

Jenny (59:10):
is it though?
I feel like, like queer andtrans folks were dying of aids.
Right.
And like, I mean, other people were too,but we're talking specifically about
queer and trans folks are dying of aids.
Um, and they were like,you need to help us.
Now we have, uh, people of Color dialingfrom police violence, you know, from

(59:36):
healthcare disparities, from all that.
Right.
So it seems, it feels like, Imean, it feels different for sure.
And I think my theory is part ofthat is social media, but I think
it's SIM a similar level of risk,

Loran (59:52):
similar level of risk.
What do you

Jenny (59:54):
mean for the, for the people of Color?

Loran (59:57):
Um, as like queer or gay and trans folks in the late
eighties and early nineties,

Jenny (01:00:04):
right?
Like different circumstances for sure.
Different histories, butlives are on the line still.

Loran (01:00:12):
Right?
Right.
That's the similarity.

Jenny (01:00:16):
I think it's also easy.
For the general population toforget about physical people
because of the COVID experienceand social media mixed together.
And that's how we were able tostay connected to each other.
But then it was easy to forget thatthose people, those little circles
of the face on it are actual humans.

(01:00:38):
Right?
So that I think has made a level ofseparation that allows for more, you know,
cancellation and things of that nature.

Loran (01:00:50):
Well, but it also reminds me of Sam and the focus group from previous
episodes from that period of sort offocus group that Sam was saying, and
then social media happened like eightyears ago and then everything changed.
And that to me is actually people withmarginalized and decentered experiences.
We're actually just given a platformto share their experience that's shale.

(01:01:14):
And so it wasn't that social media changethat it was that, oh, you're actually
hearing people's experiences and ideasthat are different from your own that
have often been invisibilized because themedia, because society, because education,
because religion, because medicine excludethese voices from textbooks, from the

(01:01:35):
news, from, uh, just like entertainment.
And so now here they are.
And so it's not the psych, oh,this was a whole brand new idea.
But rather that ideahas always been there.
And you're just now hearingit for the first time.
Cause you're being introducedand exposed to an integrated
and, uh, being in community.

(01:01:57):
An idea that you maybe havenever had the chance to yet.

Jenny (01:02:02):
Right.
And then you have Tristin, who's utilizingthose very platforms to have his voice
heard and to engage in this conversation.
And then he can't.
Right.
And then it has to leavebecause it's too painful.
Not, you know, it's just too well,I think he said that he, he knew it

(01:02:26):
wasn't the right place to like, makea difference and to him and that
for him, it was damaging personally,

Loran (01:02:35):
right?
Yeah.
They physically, physically can't dothis work anymore on social media.

Jenny (01:02:42):
That's super sad.
And it, he said it wasn't, I mean,he, I don't know if he said this
explicitly, but he said it was due to the.
Actions of his own community.
Right.
Which is cuckoo bananas.

Loran (01:03:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I still can't get, I stillcan't wrap my head around that.
Like I understand it.
I see it.
I witness it and like, I, I guess I justlike don't understand the, how and why
as queer and trans folks, we have put upso much shit from the outside world that

(01:03:26):
then we like turn and do it to each other.
And I think in some like categoricalway, it makes sense in that like, oh,
Hey, you are a family or I trust, or Isee you that you can still hold me in.
So I'm going to like unleashmy anger because they know
we're still going to be okay.
Uh, kind of like how you're alwayslike meet to your partner sometimes
when you're like hangry, you know,everything's going to be fine where
you're just like, oh, I need desperate.

(01:03:47):
And I'm going to bereally angry about that.
Um, but that is just not what's happening.
Within cancel culture and specificallyWhite queer and trans cancel culture.
It almost made me wonder though, too.
It's like, if cancel culture is thislike dog whistle for queer and trans
people for people on the right.

(01:04:08):
If it is, if it's like, okay, so likea dog whistle, it's like something that
only other people who know what you'retalking about can hear it or see it.
So like, uh, if people are saying, oh,no, cancel, cancel culture to actually
saying cancel queer and trans people.

(01:04:28):
Because when I look at, um, like PragerU or Ben Shapiro, or I think it's the
daily wire daily caller, and there'slike a daily, it's very confusing.
They're the ones that are liketrying to start their own, like
kid's show, um, to fight woke media.
Um, They are always bringing up,uh, trans folks as tech talks or

(01:04:53):
Instagrams, and like putting them upon the screen and then making fun of
them all the time, all of the time.
And they get like hundreds of thousandsof views and likes and comments on these
pieces about how awful and stupid transpeople are when it's really just like
a really cute human who just got a newhaircut and is like doing a pet check.
And they're like, oh, mis-gendermis-gender mis-gender oh,

(01:05:15):
mis-gender mis-gender, it's awful.
Um, but then they're like, oh, thisis just like some stupid pronoun
in the bio liberal with blue hair.
We need to, we need tocancel the cancel culture.
Huh?
It doesn't make me think of maybecancel the cancel culture is.

(01:05:39):
Well, no, it's cancelculture as a problem.
Cancel culture is a problem.
And it's also a problem, theway that people are receiving
counsel culture, sometimes.
So as something that is like markedly,uh, largely queer and trans driven, I
was going to say that cause to cancel,cancel culture where like these dog
whistles or homophobia or transphobia.
And I just, I feel likepower is different.

(01:06:02):
I mean like trans people in GBT ratesare used as a wedge issue politically.
And that just means that one partybelieve that Jean BT people should
be seen as human and the other sidefeels differently or like we should
just treat humans differently.
And I mean, regardless one side, whichis already in places of political
power, believes GLBT people are people.

(01:06:24):
And that's a huge step from where we werejust like 10 years ago, 15 years ago.
And.
I dunno, I guess it just depends on howyou look at, uh, like if we, as Jean
meaty, people are just these powerlessminority victims, or if there's this
coalition of power pushing GLBT rights andjustice into the mix of policy and law.
And I think the truth is that it's both,it's both, and it's not this either or

(01:06:48):
thinking it's a GLBT population, not acommunity and laws and policy are nothing
but a specific cultural value statement.
And right now it's both somepockets of the U S LGBT people who
are vulnerable to discriminatoryvalues and policy and other pockets.
Gene BT people are claimingpositions of social power in

(01:07:09):
government and rewriting policy.
Uh, so I guess unless one sitedecides to budge or we can both
budge together cause we're,co-creating our future cancel culture.
It's just going to be here for awhile.

Jenny (01:07:26):
Well, it's also just like that doesn't make any sense.
Cancel, cancel culture.
Like, are we just gonna keepcanceling, canceling culture and
canceling more culture and canceling,like it isn't making any sense.
That's where I got

Loran (01:07:37):
cancel, cancel culture from Caitlin Jenner.

Jenny (01:07:42):
I know, I forgot about her.

Trystan Reese (01:07:49):
I forgot that she's still like

Jenny (01:07:50):
doing stuff.

Loran (01:07:51):
She was running for governor.
Oh, stop.

Jenny (01:07:54):
Really

Loran (01:07:55):
in California that make that make sense.
And she was like standing out by thislike factory or this like I, in my head,
I see this like large dirt pile and she'slike, we need to cancel, cancel culture.
And that this whole speech about that.

(01:08:17):
Oops.

Jenny (01:08:19):
She probably didn't know what she was talking about.
Also.
I said, I just said like,oh my God, that man.
Her running for governorand I'm in California, but
she's Republican, isn't she?
Yeah, no.
Then that doesn't make sense.

Loran (01:08:37):
I think that that's where I think Caitlyn Jenner is maybe like this
really beautiful example of someonewho I don't agree with and then talking
about cancel culture and how unfortunatean awful cancel culture has become.
And then I like try to hold thecomplexities and multitudes of
someone like Caitlyn Jenner.

(01:08:59):
And I am not going to like try to docsor like go on her page and troll her

Jenny (01:09:07):
stocks mean Tristin used that too.
I have no idea what that means.

Loran (01:09:11):
We can very intentionally try to get some of that.

Jenny (01:09:15):
Okay.

Loran (01:09:16):
Gotcha.
Let me just confirm.
Cause it's D O X, X cat

Jenny (01:09:22):
hair keeps tickling my lip on my microphone.

Loran (01:09:26):
Yeah.
It's oh God.
Yeah.
Nevermind.
That was wrong.
Doxxing.
Um, uh, is by publicly exposing someone'sreal name or address on the internet.

Jenny (01:09:39):
Oh, right.
Yeah.
I've heard about that.
That's happened to afair amount of people.

Loran (01:09:47):
Um, and I also don't, uh, actively want to engage Caitlyn
Jenner, but I'm not going to

Jenny (01:09:56):
like, yeah.
Yeah.
You're not out to shut her down.
You're just like, I don't agree with

Loran (01:10:00):
you.
Yeah.
It goes back to, we all, don'thave to be friends and family
and best friends together.
And if you say something thathurts, we'll talk about it.
Um, but also.
I'm not going to force you intothat conversation either, right?

Jenny (01:10:17):
Yeah.
Well, and having those conversationstakes longer, then social media
lets us or life lets us, youknow, we're all on our phones.
Like boop, boop, boop.
As on my phone, scrolling throughstuff and you know that I've had
some mental health issues lately.
And like I said to my partner,I was like, oh, I'm so sad.

(01:10:39):
And he was like, it's probably your fault.
And it was just like, and, and thenI started, I was like, no, it's fine.
And then I was like watching amonkey in a lab, be tested on and
it just like crying and he waslike, you need to, you need to stop.
And I was like, I didn't evenrealize I was looking at it again.

(01:11:02):
Like I thought like I didn't even, yeah.
It's not crazy.
Yeah.
That's great.
It's like makes me wantto get off social media.

Loran (01:11:13):
That's not good for our brains.

Jenny (01:11:16):
And I'm not saying, like, I think a lot of beautiful and necessary things
have come up social media, not sayingwe should shut it all down, but I think
it, I don't know where it's going to.
It's just, it feels like it'sspiraling out of control, but that
also feels like how the rest ofthe world, it feels a little bit,

Loran (01:11:33):
so yeah.
Yeah.
We just need to beresponsible to each other.

Jenny (01:12:07):
should we do like a little thing where I'm like, Hey
friends, thanks for listening.
Just a little reminder rate, review,subscribe, share with your friends.
It helps us out there.
It just didn't.