June 4, 2022 • 53 mins
What does it mean to be a White man in the US today without supremacy or shame?
Loran and Jenny sit down with Fred Jealous, founder of Breakthrough Men's Community, to talk about the intersection of gender and race as it applies to White men.
Questions include:
- What are we missing when we raise boys in the US?
- What’s so harmful about men being masculine and women being feminine? How does patriarchy hurt men?
- Who’s a better educator: shame or love?
- Men have held power and decision-making capabilities in this country since its founding. Why did they need an additional space like Breakthrough, when the world is their proverbial oyster?
- What does it mean to be fully human?
- How do you feel the societal definition of what a “man” is affects white men and how they approach race and racism?
- In the key practices of the BMC there is mention of a “boy” who needs healing and nurturing, how much of that is related to race for White men?
- In your work of helping men heal, how central to that work was your own experience of Whiteness and masculinity, and how do you believe that impacted your work with men of Color?
=====
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Mentioned in this episode:
The Spillway Community Guidelines
1. Engage sequentially. The show is a serial not episodic. We do this so we can build relation and find common ground and context. 2. We stay in our own lane. The Spillway is about White people talking to (predominately) White people about White people and White culture. We're not out here to critique anyone's actions but our own. 3. Our combined fabric of destiny. (3a) As Dr. King said, our humanities are deeply interconnected to each other. Racism negatively impacts me, too. (3b) The Spillway is one mechanism within a larger framework needed to sustain racial equity and justice. We're not a one-stop shop. 4. No one right way to liberation. We all share the same goals, but not every method works for every person. If this doesn't work for you. That's okay. Maybe it works for someone else.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Loran (00:01):
Hello?
Yeah.
Jenny (00:04):
I put mascara on my bottom lashes.
Cause I didn't think I was going to cry.
That was very
beautiful.
Thank you.
Loran (00:15):
Yeah.
Isn't he
wonderful?
Jenny (00:19):
I mean,
I don't know if I ever felt.
In the presence of someone that'sjust embodies love, but not in a weird
fake way, like, which happens a lot.
Loran (00:36):
Right?
Like there's just so muchauthenticity that comes with
each syllable, which is just,
Jenny (00:48):
I
know, I just, like, I don't evenknow what to do with myself.
Like my face hurts causeI was smiling so hard.
And then like, I was like, some of, Iwill have to listen to this again because
some of what he was saying, I didn'teven catch cause I was trying not to cry.
So I was like a
mess just.
Loran (01:12):
Fred set a bar here, huh?
Jenny (01:14):
Fred, uh, Fred made my life simultaneously more
beautiful and more complicated.
It's really not complicated.
Loran (01:27):
I just, you know, it makes it complicated because we've, we have
actually gone into relationshipsor situations that we now currently
find ourselves that are conditional.
Fred (01:38):
And so
Loran (01:38):
we're like, oh, how do I break free of that condition?
And just.
Love you, accept you valueyou at your base just
Jenny (01:47):
because you
are, oh my gosh,
I can't function like this.
It's like shitting yourpants, but with your face,
you know what?
I'm super conscious of too?
(02:08):
White women tears.
Loran (02:10):
Why?
Jenny (02:13):
Because I heard about how much it was hated so much
not to be like, oh, poor me.
But like, you know what I mean?
Like on social media, like I heard, I waslike, oh shit, I got a rail that shit in.
And then I'm like, but Iam who I am as a person.
I cry all the time.
(02:35):
All right.
So we're going back to the top!
(02:57):
Hello and
Loran (03:00):
welcome to The Spillway podcast.
I'm Loran.
Jenny (03:03):
And I'm Jenny.
Loran (03:04):
We believe three things hurt.
People can hurt people.
Jenny (03:07):
White people are hurting
Loran (03:09):
and are healing as possible.
Jenny (03:11):
This is a podcast devoted to understanding the complex nature of
living as White people in America,
Loran (03:17):
without supremacy or shame.
And a few months ago, I started anorganization, The Spillway around
supporting White people to work throughperpetrator induced, traumatic stress
or PITS and intergenerational trauma.
And I offer this service with theacknowledgement that healing work is
merely one mechanism within a largernetwork required to sustain our collective
movement towards racial justice.
(03:39):
I seek to grow services availablerather than redistribute, where
we put our efforts and funding.
And to get this message outthere, I've asked one of the most
compassionate ferociously tender,hilarious and incredibly smart humans
I know Jenny Skinner to joinme on this podcasting journey.
Jenny.
And I come from similaryet separate backgrounds.
And importantly, we offerincredibly different perspectives
(04:02):
sometimes just by who we are aspeople and other times by the very
different identities that we hold.
Jenny (04:08):
But we're both committed to building compassion, understanding,
empathy, and patience, into to the presentand future of Whiteness and White culture.
We can't change the past, butwe can change the future through
the actions that we take today
Loran (04:23):
and we do that by trying to embody the work of James Baldwin,
Sonya Renee Taylor, Kazu Haga ResmaaMenakem and Kai Cheng Thom well, and
countless others asking for White peopleto, in so many words, get our shit
together since starting The Spillway
there's been consistent feedbacksometimes within the same space that
White people are engaging this workwith closed hearts and closed mind.
(04:47):
We know that attempting to bevulnerable and consenting to learn in
public is incredibly terrifying work.
And yet we have to start somewhereconversations of race and racism.
Aren't going away anytime soon.
And given our incredibly differentplaces in the world, we're trying
to create a middle ground wherepeople can get together and talk
and create action around the paradoxof being White in the U S where we
(05:11):
are simultaneously the perpetratorsand the victims of race and racism.
We seek to embody the work ofcountless activists of Color who have
been calling White folks to seek ourown healing around race and racism.
So here we are two White peoplecommitting to the work of individual
and collective healing aroundrace and racism for White people.
(05:34):
Healing ourselves is no one'sresponsibility, but our own let's
heal together and grow to stopthe impacts of race and racism.
Jenny (05:43):
And.
in the lives of people ofColor and our lives as well.
Loran (05:57):
in social services.
We often look at solving problems.
One of two ways, the first and the mostcommon is through supported service.
Uh, problem has happened and we'retrying to fix the problem and we
try to fix it by one, making surethat the client is physically,
emotionally safe following the problem.
And two, by supporting the clientwith a specific skill or tool needed
(06:21):
to confront the problem again.
Like let's use homelessness as an example,supportive services, make sure that
people experiencing homelessness havea roof over their heads in shelters,
temporary housing or crisis centers.
Then some programs haveemployment, education and job
training programs to assist withfinding and sustaining an income.
(06:45):
And there are variations ofthis model all over the country.
And what I've grossly generalized intwo sentences is far more complex,
but the core of what happens is there.
And yet, without trying to preventhomelessness from existing, this
cycle of supportive servicescontinues over and over again.
(07:06):
So, how do we truly makehomelessness a thing of the past?
How do we permanentlyprevent homelessness?
And to figure that out, we haveto figure out what the real
problem of homelessness is.
And it's actually money, income.
It's capitalism.
The most successful transitionalhousing programs in the country,
supplement clients who have experiencedhomelessness before in their programs
(07:31):
by paying their rents for months, ifnot years, they pay people's rents
or they own the buildings outright.
And this helps the clients buildsavings, build income, and build credit.
These programs work where capitalismis essentially put on pause.
Jenny (07:51):
In 1987, our guest Fred jealous founded Breakthrough Men's
Community, a nonprofit organizationto provide men with the skills to free
themselves from non-productive painfulor abusive aspects of their lives.
What if Fred asked by helpingmen, the impacts of sexism and CIS
(08:15):
heterosexism would subside not onlyin the shared culture, but also
for men who are conditioned andtrained into a culture of harm.
What if there were a community ofmen dedicated to making real change
in the quality of men's lives?
Loran (08:36):
The mission statement for the Breakthrough Men's Community.
Was something that I used whenthinking about creating the
mission statement for The Spillway.
So I'd like to share that with youhere, the Breakthrough Men's Community
empowers all men to participate fully andconfidently in building deeply meaningful
relationships and connected lives.
The Breakthrough workshop is aguided life-changing exploration,
(08:59):
where we work together hands-on totackle the challenges all men face.
The foundation of this is the BreakthroughMen's Community education program.
The natural extension of thiscommitment brings us to the
following promote clear and positive.
Thinking about ourselves,others in the world.
Celebrate uniqueness and break freefrom restrictive rules, imposed by
(09:21):
society, create community supportsystems and encourage all people
to act as leaders, allies, andadvocates, and act in conjunction with
other like missioned organizations.
Fred has been sharing this life forthe past 55 years with the incomparable
and Todd jealous and has sinceretired from his role in Breakthrough.
(09:43):
As the organization continueson, he's been a teacher from
preschool to graduate schools.
He loves to garden, read and write, andyou should see how his face lights up
when he gets to talk about his family.
Fred, welcome.
Thank you so much for joining us.
Fred (09:59):
Thank you for that introduction.
If something to hear that read back.
Thank you.
Jenny (10:11):
So our first question, um, Fred, is he, you said that your
starting place for Breakthroughwas the belief that the mainstream
raising of boys in the United Statesis socially sanctioned, child abuse.
Um, what are we missing whenwe raise boys in the U.S.?
Fred (10:30):
I think where, where, well, I think we're missing how normalized
the abusive treatment of littleboys is how institutionalized it is.
How so we just, um, in terms of theemphasis on sports and militarism
(10:53):
and toughening, Little boys.
The idea that they, that vulnerability,weakness and fear are taboo things to
experience and show you experienced them.
You'd better keep them to yourselfbecause there's not gonna be any resources
(11:13):
that are going to be forthcoming.
When you show vulnerability feeling.
self doubt weakness.
It's deeply, deeply ingrainedright from the beginning.
And if you want to see a grownup manreveal his hidden hysteria, just ask
(11:34):
him to explore the terror that hecarries about exposing feelings of
weakness and helplessness and powerless.
Hmm, those are absolutely taboo.
In fact, they're not even consideredfeelings after a certain point, they're
(11:54):
considered a kind of subterraneanreality that you don't want to go near.
So if you begin to experience them,you're going to flip into some
sort of depressed, aggressive,angry, um, withdrawing behavior.
Because there are no many havelearned very, very early on.
(12:18):
There's no place for that.
And, and that's, that carries not onlyfear, it's not only fear of that, but it's
the shame that you're experiencing it.
So you learn to become obedient toa role and not your own humanity.
(12:41):
And that's the way, that's theonly safe way to be in the world.
Wow.
It's more complicated than that,but that's a place to start,
Loran (12:49):
Fred, when you were talking, you used the word taboo a couple
of times and I'm, and I'm wonderinghow we work with taboos and.
In a social space or a, how doI, how do we learn that socially?
Fred (13:12):
You know, it's, it's, uh, I, um, I interviewed some
of the Breakthrough graduates.
Who've been around a long timebecause my, uh, I tend to be a harsher
critic of my own work than anybodyelse, because I'm, I'm looking for
the next step in the evolution.
(13:33):
So I sit in a pretty, um, you know,in a pretty critical place when it's
interesting, what everyone said is, um,the men are invited to have physically
and emotionally intimate experienceswith each other as part of the workshop.
(13:55):
And they're paced intothat very gradually.
For example, um, when I say gradual,I, I have to tell the leadership
team before the workshop, "Alrightyou guys no touching each other."
With a generally, when they'reengaging, they're very affectionate
(14:16):
and appreciative of each other.
That's kind of the tone of thebeing together in community.
But if you do, and we've actually hadthis happen when you do an introductory
workshop, if the guys who come.
See the leaders standing aroundholding each other or sitting close
together or demonstrating any kindof closeness, then they assume it's a
(14:41):
gay group and they run out the door.
This is like a gay cultor something, sadly.
And.
Um, so what the men that I interviewedtold me was we it's the intimate
experiences with men that youwould not ordinarily engage with.
(15:05):
That breaks up both the homophobiaand the racism and the classism.
It disrupts the pattern in avery safe and intimate way.
So it was interesting that they saw,um, you know, someone might say, oh,
(15:27):
I, you know, I, I never had any contactwith a Black person before and now I'm
sitting there active listening with him,holding his hands and discovering, this
is one of the most intelligent humanbeings I've ever met and it breaks.
So it, it.
Unusually intimate, alsoopen and everybody in the
(15:50):
room is sharing their fears.
So it's that kind of a climatethat allows for the shifting
that you were asking about?
Loran, am I answering the question?
Loran (16:04):
Oh for sure, for sure.
I think one of the things that I'm tryingto also hold is the idea that why can't
we just let boys be boys, let men be men.
We don't have to do this work.
Why, why is it important for mento be able to be in close contact
with each other to be vulnerable?
(16:26):
What's its value.
Fred (16:27):
Well, you're asking what's the value of intimacy.
Certainly makes the world a lot saferfor women for starters, because very
often men are using women, whether it'semotionally or physically or sexually.
To get relief from the isolation and fear.
The, the less fear you have of othermen and other men's bodies, the more
(16:53):
grounded you are in your own sense ofworth, then the less likely you are to
need to use another human being, to getrelief from the isolation that's caused
by that, you know, combination of feeling.
Jenny (17:11):
Loran you and I talk a lot about the, the power of platonic touch.
Um, And that I feel that came to mymind when you were talking about that.
But, um, these men living in a worldwhere the only touch that is allowed
is, is, you know, attached maybe tosexuality, um, or a sexual need, um,
(17:37):
and being able to touch someone elsein a way that's not tied to that.
Um, ha might have, mighthave a lot of power.
Fred (17:47):
It does.
It does.
And when you, and when, and when itbecomes, safe um, gradually over, you
know, the, the workshop is long for areason because you have to gradually walk
people into you, provide opportunities fornew behavior, you know, and affection and
(18:08):
appreciation, ultimately are irresistible.
You know?
From a point of view of love, butwhen you put people in a small group
that's different every week and theyoffer each other physical support
during the time, when it's their timeto receive attention, then eventually
(18:30):
people just kind of slide into it.
Always welcoming the no,the no is as good as a "yes"
so it's not manipulative.
It's just like, oh, and then thatlonging, that's all, that's deep in the
cells of us all for that kind of lovingattention calls for what your response is.
(18:53):
If you give people time anddon't manipulate them, make
it, you know, insist on it.
Now, if you just keep welcoming, it's likeRumi's quote, you know, there's one quote
from Rumi about, um, welcome, welcome,welcome, welcome you 10,000 times.
If that's what it takes for you tocome to the world of love, something
(19:17):
like that, I'm paraphrasing, but it'sthat kind of repetitive, welcoming
that allows for the, both the depth ofthe shifting and the shifting and the
people that I interviewed last nighttalked about, you know, um, it was the,
(19:37):
it was the, the, uh, the touch and theintimacy and the sense I'm sharing, you
were sharing our fears with each other
and our struggles with each other,honestly, across all kinds of class and
racial and or sexual orientation lines.
And eventually you start to see theperson separate from the, oh, the layers.
(20:02):
Not that you still don't have noise inyour head or fears to work out, but there
is a shift that they all said takes place.
I can keep going.
I keep wondering if I'm justdrifting off the topic *laughs*
No!
I'm just
Jenny (20:22):
drinking it in
Fred (20:26):
You'll tell me, Loran
Loran (20:27):
We will tell you,
Fred (20:30):
I'm wondering too far afield.
Loran (20:33):
One of the, when you were talking about welcome, welcome,
welcome, and love and Rumi'squote and this kind of repetitive.
Um, exposure to love whatthat can do to shame.
One of the things that I've been thinkingabout in preparation for our conversation
was, uh, I was trying to figure out whowas a better educator, shame or love.
(20:56):
And I don't know if I know thatanswer, but I, I think in hearing
you talk about love, I wonderif love wins out in your answer.
Fred (21:07):
Yes.
Um, and to, you know to differentdegrees depending on your, your history?
I mean, if I'm looking at, youknow, watching people go through
Breakthrough, I mean, one of the mostdramatic, and it was a common example
(21:29):
for men who had experienced a lot ofhumiliating abuse in their childhood.
They ended up hooking up with partnerswho were all, who were humiliated.
So they lived in this paradigm.
People who love you, abuse you.
(21:51):
I mean, they had thatconfusion in their heads.
Wh-With abuse and love were linked.
And as they would move through theBreakthrough and get a little bit more
self-worth on board from participatingin the community and the exercises,
you know, considering the possibilitythat you've always been good enough
(22:12):
to love or something like that.
They suddenly, they, that, that the linkbetween abuse and love starts breaking.
And the suddenly being, you know,having someone who says they love
you, abuse, you becomes intolerable.
So that that's, uh, and I saw that oftenI saw that often just tragic, I mean,
(22:38):
kinds of abuse that, and of course youlove me because you have sex with me.
Right.
So you can say whatever youwant, do whatever you want.
Humiliate me, abuse me, but justprovide the relief from it too.
And that's that?
I mean, it was, it was,that was rough to witness.
(23:00):
Ya know?
And also just for us all, to be honest,about how much it's linked up for us, how
much do we supposed to be able to take.
How much mistreatment, are we supposed tobe able to take as part of our manhood?
Loran (23:17):
It seems like it's supposed to be limitless.
Right?
I feel like that's, that's probablythe, the abuse that you are supposed
to not have any kind of response orreflection as to what you can't do.
You're supposed to be invincible.
Fred (23:32):
Right?
I can take it.
I can take it.
I can take it.
Yeah.
Jenny (23:38):
How do you feel the societal definition of what a man is
affects White men in particular?
And then how does that affect howthey approach race and racism?
Fred (23:57):
Well, I think the nuances in it for each man are going to be slightly
different, but I do think in theworld, uh, mean, um, You know, part
of what happens in Breakthrough isthe White men began to acknowledge
that they are racist, that theyhaven't, they have internalized it.
(24:18):
But not across the board, but for the mostpart, for the most part, because of the
honesty that unfolds, you know, becauseto men of Color, it's no surprise that
they carry racist garbage in their head.
And so there's a little,there's a little bit of space.
Once you have done a lot ofsharing about fear or once the.
(24:43):
You know, for example, um, youknow, a man of Color has admitted
about his, the mythology that hecarries around about, you know,
and handsome White guys with money.
Um, no, he won when, uh, I rememberin one situation there was a 26
(25:04):
year old White male addicted topornography, drove a BMW convertible
dressed well, and he was impotent
He could not have arelationship with a real.
And he, when he admitted this inclass, there was an African-American
(25:28):
man, but very rough background.
He said my whole
worldview has been turned upside down.
I thought you
guys had it made.
I thought you got whatever you wanted.
And you're telling me, you hate yourselfnow, what you know, it's like, now what?
It's like what does it all mean?
You know, if this is what's real what'sand, and that, that actually raised
(25:58):
a lot of questions for guys who hadvery, very issues about materialism
and thinking that was the solution.
And so I think the, um, thecompete win dominate paradigm
that men are raised with that.
(26:19):
Um, you know, you're supposedto be a success object.
You're supposed to be seenas a success that will get
you a really good sex object.
So you're an object looking for an object.
So to that extent, that that, that,that works out, you know, attract
(26:41):
to yourself to the extent that that.
Works out there.
There is this presumption of there's,this fear of the other is the fear of
the other, the other-ing it goes on andthen anyone who's identified as other.
(27:04):
And so I think that that can be.
That can be, uh, um, racial that canbe class-based can be appearance based,
can be, you know, able-bodied base, it'sdifficult to get really inside of it.
It's because the, the, um, itcombined with, you know, I'm
(27:29):
not going to admit my fear.
So I'm going to go to judgment.
of I, you know, judgment is a muchmore comfortable place for me to be in
than admitting that I'm feeling afraid.
Jenny (27:43):
Right.
Fred (27:44):
So I'm gonna do what I do to myself, which is I'm going
to turn him into an object.
Other if I can qualify him asother, turn him into an object
and judge him rather than, yeah.
Rather than look at, rather thanget underneath my own treatment
(28:05):
of myself as an object of themale role that makes sense?
Jenny (28:13):
Yeah, no, it does.
It does.
It does.
I'm just, I'm also just trying tofit all of that in here in terms
of, you know, like it's all, so.
Interconnected all of that.
Um, in, in the key practices ofBMC, um, there's mention of a boy
(28:36):
who needs healing and nurturing.
Um, how much of that healingthat's needed with that boy, um,
is related to race for White men.
I have to take that on a case bycase basis, because there are,
(28:58):
there are stories of the boy.
Um, there are stories of boys beingseparated from friends who were of Color.
There are stories of boys in a White boyshaving been beat up by boys of Color.
So they're terrified from thatkind of violent experience.
(29:22):
Right?
Um, a lot of it, most of it, I wouldsay is in the process of the workshop
where you've got, um, you know, men ofColor and I mean, it's, I would say.
The workshop probably 75%, youknow, White men who identify as
(29:43):
heterosexual, the rest is, is a mixture.
Um, you know, and justcause that's where we live.
Um, so the isolation there's alsoisolation is another fact there weren't
any kids of Color where I grew up.
I never had any interaction.
So I just know thatcrap that's in my head.
(30:08):
Um, so there's, so there's, everybodyhas a slightly different story,
but the isolation, you know, abuseand separation would probably
be the three different themes.
Loran (30:20):
This has
Made me wonder if there's anyinherent character or a trait
that's associated with men
is there anything that's inherent when yousay, oh, or, uh, you, you meet a man for
the very first time someone male identifyto go, oh, then you automatically do this.
You are inevitably, this, isthere something like that?
Fred (30:43):
Well, I know this may sound simplistic, but no, I think underneath
it all, we're built for love.
You know?
As part of the fabric of life and.
You know that the, the disappointmentthat our childhoods weren't about
that, that they were about trainingus into a role is profound.
(31:08):
I've never seen such rage come out ofa man as when we get to that point.
After, you know, 30 weeks andweekends being together where we
look at early hurts and sexuality.
And, and we ha and we, we, we raisedthe question about, when is rage sacred?
(31:34):
When is it a sacred?
When is that anger andrage that you feel sacred?
Well, it's when it's about thattime, you really were helpless and
powerless when you were dependenton the big people for survival.
And they told you thatit wasn't about love.
(31:55):
This is about you being a little man beingobedient, not making us uncomfortable,
making the adults superior and value, youknow, the adultism and all that stuff.
And, um, in that exercise, we say youcan't stop because you feel tired.
(32:21):
You can't wait, we're going togo past tired because tired is
where the depression and thehurts and the everything else.
And when you see the, the physical,the physicality and the stuff put
into the fury about, you know, whywas my childhood not about love?
(32:49):
So that would be, that's a long wayof getting at the answer, but I think,
you know, we're part of the fabricof life and life is, you know, life's
happening and it's feeding us thatit's inviting us to be a part of.
And here we are in this hyperindividualistic, isolated role,
Loran (33:10):
how do we come back?
How do we, how do we build thatconnection or that community.
Uh, in an, in an open or online space?
Um, like I think about with Breakthrough,one of the really lovely pieces is that
people were invited into the workshop.
Um, and it was a designated physicalspace that people got to go to,
(33:31):
uh, that you could enter, uh, oryou could pass, pass a threshold
and say, okay, well now I'm here.
Now I can be present.
And when I think about.
Uh, how individualized we'vebecome through social media
or through an online presence.
Uh, our communitysometimes is in our phone.
It's in our hands.
(33:52):
Um, even though we don't get tocross some sort of threshold.
And I'm wondering how, or if it'spossible to translate those experiences,
uh, into building community digitally.
Fred (34:03):
I don't think you can go as far as, I mean, I think men are so isolated
and so desperate for attention andsupport that, getting it digitally.
I mean, Breakthrough has discoveredthat, you know, going on to zoom and
doing whatever the guys are now doing,um, which is significantly, I mean,
(34:27):
it's taken the easy parts of what I did.
Um, you know, they're all positiveand helpful, but just being in a
place where you can get support and behonest, having that level of community
is so different than what most menhave that, although it doesn't go as
(34:49):
far as I would like it to in, in itstill is a break from the isolation.
You get a break from.
And that can encourage men to keep going.
And I guess people I'm, I'm prettykinesthetically oriented too.
So, um, I know for some people thevisual and the verbal it's, you
(35:16):
know, that's where they connect.
So they might get, you know, they mightget more out of it than I would guess in
Loran (35:24):
thinking about space.
Now, Fred, I'm also wondering.
Why why the, that space is neededgiven the social power that men have.
If men, if men have access to all ofleadership positions, to decision-making
(35:45):
power to choice, why is an additionalspace required when the whole world is
proverbially, proverbially, their oyster.
Why is, why is an additional spaceneeded for men to work through this?
Fred (36:00):
Because they are living conditional lives.
Loran (36:03):
What does conditional lives mean?
Fred (36:05):
Meaning that their values conditional on that
performance and status.
Loran (36:10):
And that's a bad thing?
Fred (36:11):
Yes.
Well, it's it's if you don't know, I mean,if it's for fun, you know, if I'm, if I'm.
If I'm engaging in anactivity because I enjoy it.
And it's an expression of who I am.
And, um, that's one thing.
(36:34):
But if any hope of being seen asgood enough lovable, um, worthwhile
having value is dependent on myperformance, then everything is about.
My performance, you know,I'm an object to myself.
(36:55):
So if I'm seen as a quote successobject or a successful success object,
you know, then I have a certainfriends of entitlement and you see
that, I mean, look at the stories.
Yeah.
Or the whole Me Too movement.
What's that about?
(37:16):
I it's about a success objectthinking that he's entitled.
So I think that's where it is.
It is conditional.
Um, remember that movie, Private Ryan.
Very very end of Private Ryan, butvery good man, but that man from
(37:37):
the movie, you know, is standingat some sort of a graveyard.
I can't remember.
I can't get a clear picture of itnow, but he's basically asking,
do you think I was a good man?
Jenny (37:51):
Right?
Was I worth the death of the others?
Fred (37:56):
"Do you think I'm good?"
You know, I mean, ifthat's not a child voice
looking for, you know, you know,is there any hope of me being
loved because it's all conditionaland Love's not conditional.
(38:19):
And as long as they hooked up,it's not, it's not about love.
Loran (38:23):
Right.
But even thinking about SavingPrivate Ryan and saying, am I
lovable after invading Normandy?
Right.
Cause that's what the movie is about.
Right?
The,
Jenny (38:32):
Right.
Fred (38:33):
I think Jenny's got the best memory *laughs*
Loran (38:38):
Good work, Jenny!
You're like, it's this, um,really dangerous slope to
say, oh, I'm only in lovable.
If I do X, Y, and Z.
Fred (38:48):
Right.
Loran (38:48):
And part of that is this, uh, this engagement in, uh, military
forces to say, okay, well now I'mlovable because I've done this or
because they've served my country.
And what does it look like when wedon't follow those tropes of manhood?
Are we still lovable?
Um, if we don't fit into the familialunderstanding of what being success
(39:13):
is or being a success object,
Fred (39:17):
But listen to the question you're answering, asking, you're
making it conditional is saying you're.
I think what you're asking is, is thereany way out of the conditionality?
Loran (39:30):
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
Fred (39:33):
Yeah.
Right.
Well, I'm part of the way outis just to realize if it's
conditional it isn't about love.
Which is why in Breakthrough, wegave them, you know, here's, here's a
functional definition of love when you'redoing these five things you're being
loving and none of them are conditional.
(39:53):
You know, when you're acceptingsomeone, appreciating them,
you know, being affectionate.
Um, being, allowing, being appreciative,all those, when you're doing those engaged
in those behaviors, you're being loving.
That's what being loving is, butthey needed something that concrete,
but it's a wonderful question.
(40:13):
I mean, I mean, it's,it's a beautiful question.
Is there any hope of it ever beingunconditional enough for me to know
that I am loved, loving and love.
Loran (40:28):
Where does, or how does forgiveness work, um, joined into the, the work
of being loved, loving, and lovable?
Because I feel like I'mthinking of two different ways.
There's any that that's like innerchild work and kind of shadow work
that comes up, but then there's also.
(40:49):
Uh, sometimes just writing anopen letter to your parents.
You don't even have to send it.
My mom would do that all the time.
Just try to write something,get it out of your system.
Um, but where does thatforgiveness come in?
And what does that look like in, in our
repairative work?
Fred (41:06):
Um, you have forgiveness will come naturally.
When you have honored thebreadth and depth of your pain
and anger about what happened.
Otherwise it's a rip off andyou know what I'm saying?
You don't have to do that with yourparents or whoever the offender
was, but for your, for ourselves, wehave to honor the depth of our pain
(41:32):
and anger, and then it will flip.
Loran (41:35):
Are there any, um, kind of like breadcrumbs or indicators
that it's about to flip?
Um, I think
Fred (41:43):
our willingness to be, uh, ruthlessly, honest with ourselves
about the pain and the anger.
Can you think about what that persondid to you without feeling any
pain without honestly saying youdon't feel any more pain and anger?
(42:08):
If we do, we have to honor it.
Otherwise it's self abuse.
I'm forgiving you.
So I'll be a good person or they'llaccept me in the 12 step program.
I mean, I saw that so manytimes when people I'm not
objecting to the 12 step program.
So the great parts of 12 step programs,but so many people are coming to
(42:31):
Breakthrough from 12 step program.
"Oh, I forgave myparents a long time ago."
Lie.
Loran (42:40):
That feels so tricky
because they can, I can see, I, it,it, um, like being recalled into
trying to support people and askingthem if something had resolved and
they kept saying, yes, yes, yes.
But it was this.
(43:01):
I actually don't want to touch thatbox because that has Pandora's box.
And the second we touched that.
Things are going to unravelin a really dangerous way.
And I think that that's somethingthat I've experienced a lot with The
Spillway is, oh, no, no, no, no, no.
We just don't talk about race.
Just don't talk about it.
I don't want to touch that.
And so I'm not racist.
(43:22):
I, I don't see color actually.
Fred (43:27):
*laughs* Right.
Loran (43:29):
And because of that, I don't have any problems.
And I think about that in terms offorgiveness, because someone and maybe
that's what colorblind racism is to acertain extent they've forgiven themselves
prematurely in this racial contract,they've forgiven themselves in something
they couldn't forgive themselves inbecause they didn't have the authority
(43:52):
or the responsibility to do that.
Fred (43:57):
And a lot of people are profoundly ignorant about the history.
Loran (44:04):
Do you think that there's more, uh, education or relation needed in the
racism conversation and ending of racism?
Fred (44:16):
Both.
Loran (44:17):
Yeah.
I agree.
Um, we are two minutes to close.
And so Fred, I just want to,uh, you very literally have
this microphone in front of you.
Um, but if you wanted to talk to Whitepeople directly, if you wanted to have an
open and vulnerable, authentic moment withWhite people, as if we haven't been having
(44:41):
that for the past 45 minutes, what do you.
Uh, want to tell to the person who isgoing on a walk right now, or doing
the laundry, or just sitting there intraffic, listening to the podcast, what
do you need them to know right now?
Fred (45:00):
I think I would ask them a question.
I would just ask them, "Can you accessthe truth of your own preciousness?"
And that's the startingplace for the discussion.
(45:20):
Can you access that?
And if you can access that,that place, can you stay there?
You use it as a starting place to, fromwhich to connect to all of life and
from which, and from which to take alook at where you put your attention.
(45:43):
With other humans.
So I'd use that as a place to start.
Loran (45:53):
I love that change starts with understanding your own preciousness.
Jenny (46:14):
I know!
Like I can't like that's whenI was like, like I just, even
now, like I'm, I can't like Iunderstanding your own preciousness.
Fuck Fred, wherever you been
for me.
(46:35):
Precious.
Like, I can't even go there yet.
I don't even know what thatmeans in terms of myself.
Like I can't even,
Loran (46:44):
yeah.
I feel like that's, that's myhomework this week, trying to
figure out why I'm precious.
Jenny (46:50):
Yeah.
I mean, not even why you are, you just are
Loran (46:56):
Fuck, you're right.
Jenny (46:58):
That's what Fred was saying.
That's why it's so fucking crazybecause Fred's like, no, no.
There's no.
Why can you just see that you are?
And I'm like,
no,
Loran (47:12):
you're right.
Thank you for that reminder.
I forgot.
Yeah, because I'm soconditioned on the condition.
I am so predisposed to have to cre-to have to do, to receive that.
It's not just like, oh no.
And even when I was like, oh, solike when you meet a man, like
(47:32):
he's inherently, what a lovable
I'm sorry, what,
Jenny (47:39):
what does he
also, I don't know how comfortableyou feel talking about this.
But you were raised in that,what Fred's talking about.
Like that's not your reality now interms of like how you identify and the
life you're living, but you were raisedin what Fred was fucking talking about.
(48:04):
Like all of that waswhat you were mired in
Loran (48:09):
and I think that that's when Fred was talking about the 12 step
program and saying that people come in,oh no, I forgive my parents years ago.
I think about so much therapy thatI have done and been in and engaged
in and like really committed to overthe past couple of decades, uh, that
I was like, oh yeah, no, I feel likeI've healed from a lot of those.
(48:31):
Um, and then in comes, Fred being Fred
Jenny (48:37):
it's like, you're lying and not, and even when he says that, it's
not like, he's not like you're a liar.
He's just like, noyou're, but you're lying.
Right.
I love you.
And you're like,
Loran (48:50):
right.
Oh my God.
Cause Fred is so fucking affirming Ilove you in your lying and you're like,
damn.
Jenny (48:57):
Yeah, you, that's what I think we should do that for each other this week.
Like, just like, Hey, just popping in toreaffirm your preciousness for no reason.
Other than that, you existand you are precious.
Like, I can't like everytime I like get Misty, like,
there's like a knot right here.
(49:17):
I like.
Loran (49:20):
I just keep
smiling.
There's so much liketension in my cheek bones.
Jenny (49:24):
Right here, like just here, because I mean, what, why is this
person not everywhere in the world?
Like I just like, I'm like, what thefuck have I been doing with my time when
there are people like Fred in the world?
(49:47):
How
precious
Loran (49:50):
oh, my God.
What if precious, this becamelike a tagline from The Spillway?
I, or like for The Spillway?
"You're Precious."
Jenny (49:57):
Yeah.
What if we did that at the end, we toldeach other we were precious and then we
told the audience or something like that.
Loran (50:05):
Yeah.
Jenny, you're precious
Jenny (50:07):
You're so
fucking precious.
*giggles*
Loran (50:11):
What
Jenny (50:12):
What
Loran (50:13):
You're precious
Jenny (50:14):
You're precious.
Loran (50:15):
We're precious.
Jenny (50:18):
Everyone's precious.
Hello?
Yeah.
Jenny (00:04):
I put mascara on my bottom lashes.
Cause I didn't think I was going to cry.
That was very
beautiful.
Thank you.
Loran (00:15):
Yeah.
Isn't he
wonderful?
Jenny (00:19):
I mean,
I don't know if I ever felt.
In the presence of someone that'sjust embodies love, but not in a weird
fake way, like, which happens a lot.
Loran (00:36):
Right?
Like there's just so muchauthenticity that comes with
each syllable, which is just,
Jenny (00:48):
I
know, I just, like, I don't evenknow what to do with myself.
Like my face hurts causeI was smiling so hard.
And then like, I was like, some of, Iwill have to listen to this again because
some of what he was saying, I didn'teven catch cause I was trying not to cry.
So I was like a
mess just.
Loran (01:12):
Fred set a bar here, huh?
Jenny (01:14):
Fred, uh, Fred made my life simultaneously more
beautiful and more complicated.
It's really not complicated.
Loran (01:27):
I just, you know, it makes it complicated because we've, we have
actually gone into relationshipsor situations that we now currently
find ourselves that are conditional.
Fred (01:38):
And so
Loran (01:38):
we're like, oh, how do I break free of that condition?
And just.
Love you, accept you valueyou at your base just
Jenny (01:47):
because you
are, oh my gosh,
I can't function like this.
It's like shitting yourpants, but with your face,
you know what?
I'm super conscious of too?
(02:08):
White women tears.
Loran (02:10):
Why?
Jenny (02:13):
Because I heard about how much it was hated so much
not to be like, oh, poor me.
But like, you know what I mean?
Like on social media, like I heard, I waslike, oh shit, I got a rail that shit in.
And then I'm like, but Iam who I am as a person.
I cry all the time.
(02:35):
All right.
So we're going back to the top!
(02:57):
Hello and
Loran (03:00):
welcome to The Spillway podcast.
I'm Loran.
Jenny (03:03):
And I'm Jenny.
Loran (03:04):
We believe three things hurt.
People can hurt people.
Jenny (03:07):
White people are hurting
Loran (03:09):
and are healing as possible.
Jenny (03:11):
This is a podcast devoted to understanding the complex nature of
living as White people in America,
Loran (03:17):
without supremacy or shame.
And a few months ago, I started anorganization, The Spillway around
supporting White people to work throughperpetrator induced, traumatic stress
or PITS and intergenerational trauma.
And I offer this service with theacknowledgement that healing work is
merely one mechanism within a largernetwork required to sustain our collective
movement towards racial justice.
(03:39):
I seek to grow services availablerather than redistribute, where
we put our efforts and funding.
And to get this message outthere, I've asked one of the most
compassionate ferociously tender,hilarious and incredibly smart humans
I know Jenny Skinner to joinme on this podcasting journey.
Jenny.
And I come from similaryet separate backgrounds.
And importantly, we offerincredibly different perspectives
(04:02):
sometimes just by who we are aspeople and other times by the very
different identities that we hold.
Jenny (04:08):
But we're both committed to building compassion, understanding,
empathy, and patience, into to the presentand future of Whiteness and White culture.
We can't change the past, butwe can change the future through
the actions that we take today
Loran (04:23):
and we do that by trying to embody the work of James Baldwin,
Sonya Renee Taylor, Kazu Haga ResmaaMenakem and Kai Cheng Thom well, and
countless others asking for White peopleto, in so many words, get our shit
together since starting The Spillway
there's been consistent feedbacksometimes within the same space that
White people are engaging this workwith closed hearts and closed mind.
(04:47):
We know that attempting to bevulnerable and consenting to learn in
public is incredibly terrifying work.
And yet we have to start somewhereconversations of race and racism.
Aren't going away anytime soon.
And given our incredibly differentplaces in the world, we're trying
to create a middle ground wherepeople can get together and talk
and create action around the paradoxof being White in the U S where we
(05:11):
are simultaneously the perpetratorsand the victims of race and racism.
We seek to embody the work ofcountless activists of Color who have
been calling White folks to seek ourown healing around race and racism.
So here we are two White peoplecommitting to the work of individual
and collective healing aroundrace and racism for White people.
(05:34):
Healing ourselves is no one'sresponsibility, but our own let's
heal together and grow to stopthe impacts of race and racism.
Jenny (05:43):
And.
in the lives of people ofColor and our lives as well.
Loran (05:57):
in social services.
We often look at solving problems.
One of two ways, the first and the mostcommon is through supported service.
Uh, problem has happened and we'retrying to fix the problem and we
try to fix it by one, making surethat the client is physically,
emotionally safe following the problem.
And two, by supporting the clientwith a specific skill or tool needed
(06:21):
to confront the problem again.
Like let's use homelessness as an example,supportive services, make sure that
people experiencing homelessness havea roof over their heads in shelters,
temporary housing or crisis centers.
Then some programs haveemployment, education and job
training programs to assist withfinding and sustaining an income.
(06:45):
And there are variations ofthis model all over the country.
And what I've grossly generalized intwo sentences is far more complex,
but the core of what happens is there.
And yet, without trying to preventhomelessness from existing, this
cycle of supportive servicescontinues over and over again.
(07:06):
So, how do we truly makehomelessness a thing of the past?
How do we permanentlyprevent homelessness?
And to figure that out, we haveto figure out what the real
problem of homelessness is.
And it's actually money, income.
It's capitalism.
The most successful transitionalhousing programs in the country,
supplement clients who have experiencedhomelessness before in their programs
(07:31):
by paying their rents for months, ifnot years, they pay people's rents
or they own the buildings outright.
And this helps the clients buildsavings, build income, and build credit.
These programs work where capitalismis essentially put on pause.
Jenny (07:51):
In 1987, our guest Fred jealous founded Breakthrough Men's
Community, a nonprofit organizationto provide men with the skills to free
themselves from non-productive painfulor abusive aspects of their lives.
What if Fred asked by helpingmen, the impacts of sexism and CIS
(08:15):
heterosexism would subside not onlyin the shared culture, but also
for men who are conditioned andtrained into a culture of harm.
What if there were a community ofmen dedicated to making real change
in the quality of men's lives?
Loran (08:36):
The mission statement for the Breakthrough Men's Community.
Was something that I used whenthinking about creating the
mission statement for The Spillway.
So I'd like to share that with youhere, the Breakthrough Men's Community
empowers all men to participate fully andconfidently in building deeply meaningful
relationships and connected lives.
The Breakthrough workshop is aguided life-changing exploration,
(08:59):
where we work together hands-on totackle the challenges all men face.
The foundation of this is the BreakthroughMen's Community education program.
The natural extension of thiscommitment brings us to the
following promote clear and positive.
Thinking about ourselves,others in the world.
Celebrate uniqueness and break freefrom restrictive rules, imposed by
(09:21):
society, create community supportsystems and encourage all people
to act as leaders, allies, andadvocates, and act in conjunction with
other like missioned organizations.
Fred has been sharing this life forthe past 55 years with the incomparable
and Todd jealous and has sinceretired from his role in Breakthrough.
(09:43):
As the organization continueson, he's been a teacher from
preschool to graduate schools.
He loves to garden, read and write, andyou should see how his face lights up
when he gets to talk about his family.
Fred, welcome.
Thank you so much for joining us.
Fred (09:59):
Thank you for that introduction.
If something to hear that read back.
Thank you.
Jenny (10:11):
So our first question, um, Fred, is he, you said that your
starting place for Breakthroughwas the belief that the mainstream
raising of boys in the United Statesis socially sanctioned, child abuse.
Um, what are we missing whenwe raise boys in the U.S.?
Fred (10:30):
I think where, where, well, I think we're missing how normalized
the abusive treatment of littleboys is how institutionalized it is.
How so we just, um, in terms of theemphasis on sports and militarism
(10:53):
and toughening, Little boys.
The idea that they, that vulnerability,weakness and fear are taboo things to
experience and show you experienced them.
You'd better keep them to yourselfbecause there's not gonna be any resources
(11:13):
that are going to be forthcoming.
When you show vulnerability feeling.
self doubt weakness.
It's deeply, deeply ingrainedright from the beginning.
And if you want to see a grownup manreveal his hidden hysteria, just ask
(11:34):
him to explore the terror that hecarries about exposing feelings of
weakness and helplessness and powerless.
Hmm, those are absolutely taboo.
In fact, they're not even consideredfeelings after a certain point, they're
(11:54):
considered a kind of subterraneanreality that you don't want to go near.
So if you begin to experience them,you're going to flip into some
sort of depressed, aggressive,angry, um, withdrawing behavior.
Because there are no many havelearned very, very early on.
(12:18):
There's no place for that.
And, and that's, that carries not onlyfear, it's not only fear of that, but it's
the shame that you're experiencing it.
So you learn to become obedient toa role and not your own humanity.
(12:41):
And that's the way, that's theonly safe way to be in the world.
Wow.
It's more complicated than that,but that's a place to start,
Loran (12:49):
Fred, when you were talking, you used the word taboo a couple
of times and I'm, and I'm wonderinghow we work with taboos and.
In a social space or a, how doI, how do we learn that socially?
Fred (13:12):
You know, it's, it's, uh, I, um, I interviewed some
of the Breakthrough graduates.
Who've been around a long timebecause my, uh, I tend to be a harsher
critic of my own work than anybodyelse, because I'm, I'm looking for
the next step in the evolution.
(13:33):
So I sit in a pretty, um, you know,in a pretty critical place when it's
interesting, what everyone said is, um,the men are invited to have physically
and emotionally intimate experienceswith each other as part of the workshop.
(13:55):
And they're paced intothat very gradually.
For example, um, when I say gradual,I, I have to tell the leadership
team before the workshop, "Alrightyou guys no touching each other."
With a generally, when they'reengaging, they're very affectionate
(14:16):
and appreciative of each other.
That's kind of the tone of thebeing together in community.
But if you do, and we've actually hadthis happen when you do an introductory
workshop, if the guys who come.
See the leaders standing aroundholding each other or sitting close
together or demonstrating any kindof closeness, then they assume it's a
(14:41):
gay group and they run out the door.
This is like a gay cultor something, sadly.
And.
Um, so what the men that I interviewedtold me was we it's the intimate
experiences with men that youwould not ordinarily engage with.
(15:05):
That breaks up both the homophobiaand the racism and the classism.
It disrupts the pattern in avery safe and intimate way.
So it was interesting that they saw,um, you know, someone might say, oh,
(15:27):
I, you know, I, I never had any contactwith a Black person before and now I'm
sitting there active listening with him,holding his hands and discovering, this
is one of the most intelligent humanbeings I've ever met and it breaks.
So it, it.
Unusually intimate, alsoopen and everybody in the
(15:50):
room is sharing their fears.
So it's that kind of a climatethat allows for the shifting
that you were asking about?
Loran, am I answering the question?
Loran (16:04):
Oh for sure, for sure.
I think one of the things that I'm tryingto also hold is the idea that why can't
we just let boys be boys, let men be men.
We don't have to do this work.
Why, why is it important for mento be able to be in close contact
with each other to be vulnerable?
(16:26):
What's its value.
Fred (16:27):
Well, you're asking what's the value of intimacy.
Certainly makes the world a lot saferfor women for starters, because very
often men are using women, whether it'semotionally or physically or sexually.
To get relief from the isolation and fear.
The, the less fear you have of othermen and other men's bodies, the more
(16:53):
grounded you are in your own sense ofworth, then the less likely you are to
need to use another human being, to getrelief from the isolation that's caused
by that, you know, combination of feeling.
Jenny (17:11):
Loran you and I talk a lot about the, the power of platonic touch.
Um, And that I feel that came to mymind when you were talking about that.
But, um, these men living in a worldwhere the only touch that is allowed
is, is, you know, attached maybe tosexuality, um, or a sexual need, um,
(17:37):
and being able to touch someone elsein a way that's not tied to that.
Um, ha might have, mighthave a lot of power.
Fred (17:47):
It does.
It does.
And when you, and when, and when itbecomes, safe um, gradually over, you
know, the, the workshop is long for areason because you have to gradually walk
people into you, provide opportunities fornew behavior, you know, and affection and
(18:08):
appreciation, ultimately are irresistible.
You know?
From a point of view of love, butwhen you put people in a small group
that's different every week and theyoffer each other physical support
during the time, when it's their timeto receive attention, then eventually
(18:30):
people just kind of slide into it.
Always welcoming the no,the no is as good as a "yes"
so it's not manipulative.
It's just like, oh, and then thatlonging, that's all, that's deep in the
cells of us all for that kind of lovingattention calls for what your response is.
(18:53):
If you give people time anddon't manipulate them, make
it, you know, insist on it.
Now, if you just keep welcoming, it's likeRumi's quote, you know, there's one quote
from Rumi about, um, welcome, welcome,welcome, welcome you 10,000 times.
If that's what it takes for you tocome to the world of love, something
(19:17):
like that, I'm paraphrasing, but it'sthat kind of repetitive, welcoming
that allows for the, both the depth ofthe shifting and the shifting and the
people that I interviewed last nighttalked about, you know, um, it was the,
(19:37):
it was the, the, uh, the touch and theintimacy and the sense I'm sharing, you
were sharing our fears with each other
and our struggles with each other,honestly, across all kinds of class and
racial and or sexual orientation lines.
And eventually you start to see theperson separate from the, oh, the layers.
(20:02):
Not that you still don't have noise inyour head or fears to work out, but there
is a shift that they all said takes place.
I can keep going.
I keep wondering if I'm justdrifting off the topic *laughs*
No!
I'm just
Jenny (20:22):
drinking it in
Fred (20:26):
You'll tell me, Loran
Loran (20:27):
We will tell you,
Fred (20:30):
I'm wondering too far afield.
Loran (20:33):
One of the, when you were talking about welcome, welcome,
welcome, and love and Rumi'squote and this kind of repetitive.
Um, exposure to love whatthat can do to shame.
One of the things that I've been thinkingabout in preparation for our conversation
was, uh, I was trying to figure out whowas a better educator, shame or love.
(20:56):
And I don't know if I know thatanswer, but I, I think in hearing
you talk about love, I wonderif love wins out in your answer.
Fred (21:07):
Yes.
Um, and to, you know to differentdegrees depending on your, your history?
I mean, if I'm looking at, youknow, watching people go through
Breakthrough, I mean, one of the mostdramatic, and it was a common example
(21:29):
for men who had experienced a lot ofhumiliating abuse in their childhood.
They ended up hooking up with partnerswho were all, who were humiliated.
So they lived in this paradigm.
People who love you, abuse you.
(21:51):
I mean, they had thatconfusion in their heads.
Wh-With abuse and love were linked.
And as they would move through theBreakthrough and get a little bit more
self-worth on board from participatingin the community and the exercises,
you know, considering the possibilitythat you've always been good enough
(22:12):
to love or something like that.
They suddenly, they, that, that the linkbetween abuse and love starts breaking.
And the suddenly being, you know,having someone who says they love
you, abuse, you becomes intolerable.
So that that's, uh, and I saw that oftenI saw that often just tragic, I mean,
(22:38):
kinds of abuse that, and of course youlove me because you have sex with me.
Right.
So you can say whatever youwant, do whatever you want.
Humiliate me, abuse me, but justprovide the relief from it too.
And that's that?
I mean, it was, it was,that was rough to witness.
(23:00):
Ya know?
And also just for us all, to be honest,about how much it's linked up for us, how
much do we supposed to be able to take.
How much mistreatment, are we supposed tobe able to take as part of our manhood?
Loran (23:17):
It seems like it's supposed to be limitless.
Right?
I feel like that's, that's probablythe, the abuse that you are supposed
to not have any kind of response orreflection as to what you can't do.
You're supposed to be invincible.
Fred (23:32):
Right?
I can take it.
I can take it.
I can take it.
Yeah.
Jenny (23:38):
How do you feel the societal definition of what a man is
affects White men in particular?
And then how does that affect howthey approach race and racism?
Fred (23:57):
Well, I think the nuances in it for each man are going to be slightly
different, but I do think in theworld, uh, mean, um, You know, part
of what happens in Breakthrough isthe White men began to acknowledge
that they are racist, that theyhaven't, they have internalized it.
(24:18):
But not across the board, but for the mostpart, for the most part, because of the
honesty that unfolds, you know, becauseto men of Color, it's no surprise that
they carry racist garbage in their head.
And so there's a little,there's a little bit of space.
Once you have done a lot ofsharing about fear or once the.
(24:43):
You know, for example, um, youknow, a man of Color has admitted
about his, the mythology that hecarries around about, you know,
and handsome White guys with money.
Um, no, he won when, uh, I rememberin one situation there was a 26
(25:04):
year old White male addicted topornography, drove a BMW convertible
dressed well, and he was impotent
He could not have arelationship with a real.
And he, when he admitted this inclass, there was an African-American
(25:28):
man, but very rough background.
He said my whole
worldview has been turned upside down.
I thought you
guys had it made.
I thought you got whatever you wanted.
And you're telling me, you hate yourselfnow, what you know, it's like, now what?
It's like what does it all mean?
You know, if this is what's real what'sand, and that, that actually raised
(25:58):
a lot of questions for guys who hadvery, very issues about materialism
and thinking that was the solution.
And so I think the, um, thecompete win dominate paradigm
that men are raised with that.
(26:19):
Um, you know, you're supposedto be a success object.
You're supposed to be seenas a success that will get
you a really good sex object.
So you're an object looking for an object.
So to that extent, that that, that,that works out, you know, attract
(26:41):
to yourself to the extent that that.
Works out there.
There is this presumption of there's,this fear of the other is the fear of
the other, the other-ing it goes on andthen anyone who's identified as other.
(27:04):
And so I think that that can be.
That can be, uh, um, racial that canbe class-based can be appearance based,
can be, you know, able-bodied base, it'sdifficult to get really inside of it.
It's because the, the, um, itcombined with, you know, I'm
(27:29):
not going to admit my fear.
So I'm going to go to judgment.
of I, you know, judgment is a muchmore comfortable place for me to be in
than admitting that I'm feeling afraid.
Jenny (27:43):
Right.
Fred (27:44):
So I'm gonna do what I do to myself, which is I'm going
to turn him into an object.
Other if I can qualify him asother, turn him into an object
and judge him rather than, yeah.
Rather than look at, rather thanget underneath my own treatment
(28:05):
of myself as an object of themale role that makes sense?
Jenny (28:13):
Yeah, no, it does.
It does.
It does.
I'm just, I'm also just trying tofit all of that in here in terms
of, you know, like it's all, so.
Interconnected all of that.
Um, in, in the key practices ofBMC, um, there's mention of a boy
(28:36):
who needs healing and nurturing.
Um, how much of that healingthat's needed with that boy, um,
is related to race for White men.
I have to take that on a case bycase basis, because there are,
(28:58):
there are stories of the boy.
Um, there are stories of boys beingseparated from friends who were of Color.
There are stories of boys in a White boyshaving been beat up by boys of Color.
So they're terrified from thatkind of violent experience.
(29:22):
Right?
Um, a lot of it, most of it, I wouldsay is in the process of the workshop
where you've got, um, you know, men ofColor and I mean, it's, I would say.
The workshop probably 75%, youknow, White men who identify as
(29:43):
heterosexual, the rest is, is a mixture.
Um, you know, and justcause that's where we live.
Um, so the isolation there's alsoisolation is another fact there weren't
any kids of Color where I grew up.
I never had any interaction.
So I just know thatcrap that's in my head.
(30:08):
Um, so there's, so there's, everybodyhas a slightly different story,
but the isolation, you know, abuseand separation would probably
be the three different themes.
Loran (30:20):
This has
Made me wonder if there's anyinherent character or a trait
that's associated with men
is there anything that's inherent when yousay, oh, or, uh, you, you meet a man for
the very first time someone male identifyto go, oh, then you automatically do this.
You are inevitably, this, isthere something like that?
Fred (30:43):
Well, I know this may sound simplistic, but no, I think underneath
it all, we're built for love.
You know?
As part of the fabric of life and.
You know that the, the disappointmentthat our childhoods weren't about
that, that they were about trainingus into a role is profound.
(31:08):
I've never seen such rage come out ofa man as when we get to that point.
After, you know, 30 weeks andweekends being together where we
look at early hurts and sexuality.
And, and we ha and we, we, we raisedthe question about, when is rage sacred?
(31:34):
When is it a sacred?
When is that anger andrage that you feel sacred?
Well, it's when it's about thattime, you really were helpless and
powerless when you were dependenton the big people for survival.
And they told you thatit wasn't about love.
(31:55):
This is about you being a little man beingobedient, not making us uncomfortable,
making the adults superior and value, youknow, the adultism and all that stuff.
And, um, in that exercise, we say youcan't stop because you feel tired.
(32:21):
You can't wait, we're going togo past tired because tired is
where the depression and thehurts and the everything else.
And when you see the, the physical,the physicality and the stuff put
into the fury about, you know, whywas my childhood not about love?
(32:49):
So that would be, that's a long wayof getting at the answer, but I think,
you know, we're part of the fabricof life and life is, you know, life's
happening and it's feeding us thatit's inviting us to be a part of.
And here we are in this hyperindividualistic, isolated role,
Loran (33:10):
how do we come back?
How do we, how do we build thatconnection or that community.
Uh, in an, in an open or online space?
Um, like I think about with Breakthrough,one of the really lovely pieces is that
people were invited into the workshop.
Um, and it was a designated physicalspace that people got to go to,
(33:31):
uh, that you could enter, uh, oryou could pass, pass a threshold
and say, okay, well now I'm here.
Now I can be present.
And when I think about.
Uh, how individualized we'vebecome through social media
or through an online presence.
Uh, our communitysometimes is in our phone.
It's in our hands.
(33:52):
Um, even though we don't get tocross some sort of threshold.
And I'm wondering how, or if it'spossible to translate those experiences,
uh, into building community digitally.
Fred (34:03):
I don't think you can go as far as, I mean, I think men are so isolated
and so desperate for attention andsupport that, getting it digitally.
I mean, Breakthrough has discoveredthat, you know, going on to zoom and
doing whatever the guys are now doing,um, which is significantly, I mean,
(34:27):
it's taken the easy parts of what I did.
Um, you know, they're all positiveand helpful, but just being in a
place where you can get support and behonest, having that level of community
is so different than what most menhave that, although it doesn't go as
(34:49):
far as I would like it to in, in itstill is a break from the isolation.
You get a break from.
And that can encourage men to keep going.
And I guess people I'm, I'm prettykinesthetically oriented too.
So, um, I know for some people thevisual and the verbal it's, you
(35:16):
know, that's where they connect.
So they might get, you know, they mightget more out of it than I would guess in
Loran (35:24):
thinking about space.
Now, Fred, I'm also wondering.
Why why the, that space is neededgiven the social power that men have.
If men, if men have access to all ofleadership positions, to decision-making
(35:45):
power to choice, why is an additionalspace required when the whole world is
proverbially, proverbially, their oyster.
Why is, why is an additional spaceneeded for men to work through this?
Fred (36:00):
Because they are living conditional lives.
Loran (36:03):
What does conditional lives mean?
Fred (36:05):
Meaning that their values conditional on that
performance and status.
Loran (36:10):
And that's a bad thing?
Fred (36:11):
Yes.
Well, it's it's if you don't know, I mean,if it's for fun, you know, if I'm, if I'm.
If I'm engaging in anactivity because I enjoy it.
And it's an expression of who I am.
And, um, that's one thing.
(36:34):
But if any hope of being seen asgood enough lovable, um, worthwhile
having value is dependent on myperformance, then everything is about.
My performance, you know,I'm an object to myself.
(36:55):
So if I'm seen as a quote successobject or a successful success object,
you know, then I have a certainfriends of entitlement and you see
that, I mean, look at the stories.
Yeah.
Or the whole Me Too movement.
What's that about?
(37:16):
I it's about a success objectthinking that he's entitled.
So I think that's where it is.
It is conditional.
Um, remember that movie, Private Ryan.
Very very end of Private Ryan, butvery good man, but that man from
(37:37):
the movie, you know, is standingat some sort of a graveyard.
I can't remember.
I can't get a clear picture of itnow, but he's basically asking,
do you think I was a good man?
Jenny (37:51):
Right?
Was I worth the death of the others?
Fred (37:56):
"Do you think I'm good?"
You know, I mean, ifthat's not a child voice
looking for, you know, you know,is there any hope of me being
loved because it's all conditionaland Love's not conditional.
(38:19):
And as long as they hooked up,it's not, it's not about love.
Loran (38:23):
Right.
But even thinking about SavingPrivate Ryan and saying, am I
lovable after invading Normandy?
Right.
Cause that's what the movie is about.
Right?
The,
Jenny (38:32):
Right.
Fred (38:33):
I think Jenny's got the best memory *laughs*
Loran (38:38):
Good work, Jenny!
You're like, it's this, um,really dangerous slope to
say, oh, I'm only in lovable.
If I do X, Y, and Z.
Fred (38:48):
Right.
Loran (38:48):
And part of that is this, uh, this engagement in, uh, military
forces to say, okay, well now I'mlovable because I've done this or
because they've served my country.
And what does it look like when wedon't follow those tropes of manhood?
Are we still lovable?
Um, if we don't fit into the familialunderstanding of what being success
(39:13):
is or being a success object,
Fred (39:17):
But listen to the question you're answering, asking, you're
making it conditional is saying you're.
I think what you're asking is, is thereany way out of the conditionality?
Loran (39:30):
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
Fred (39:33):
Yeah.
Right.
Well, I'm part of the way outis just to realize if it's
conditional it isn't about love.
Which is why in Breakthrough, wegave them, you know, here's, here's a
functional definition of love when you'redoing these five things you're being
loving and none of them are conditional.
(39:53):
You know, when you're acceptingsomeone, appreciating them,
you know, being affectionate.
Um, being, allowing, being appreciative,all those, when you're doing those engaged
in those behaviors, you're being loving.
That's what being loving is, butthey needed something that concrete,
but it's a wonderful question.
(40:13):
I mean, I mean, it's,it's a beautiful question.
Is there any hope of it ever beingunconditional enough for me to know
that I am loved, loving and love.
Loran (40:28):
Where does, or how does forgiveness work, um, joined into the, the work
of being loved, loving, and lovable?
Because I feel like I'mthinking of two different ways.
There's any that that's like innerchild work and kind of shadow work
that comes up, but then there's also.
(40:49):
Uh, sometimes just writing anopen letter to your parents.
You don't even have to send it.
My mom would do that all the time.
Just try to write something,get it out of your system.
Um, but where does thatforgiveness come in?
And what does that look like in, in our
repairative work?
Fred (41:06):
Um, you have forgiveness will come naturally.
When you have honored thebreadth and depth of your pain
and anger about what happened.
Otherwise it's a rip off andyou know what I'm saying?
You don't have to do that with yourparents or whoever the offender
was, but for your, for ourselves, wehave to honor the depth of our pain
(41:32):
and anger, and then it will flip.
Loran (41:35):
Are there any, um, kind of like breadcrumbs or indicators
that it's about to flip?
Um, I think
Fred (41:43):
our willingness to be, uh, ruthlessly, honest with ourselves
about the pain and the anger.
Can you think about what that persondid to you without feeling any
pain without honestly saying youdon't feel any more pain and anger?
(42:08):
If we do, we have to honor it.
Otherwise it's self abuse.
I'm forgiving you.
So I'll be a good person or they'llaccept me in the 12 step program.
I mean, I saw that so manytimes when people I'm not
objecting to the 12 step program.
So the great parts of 12 step programs,but so many people are coming to
(42:31):
Breakthrough from 12 step program.
"Oh, I forgave myparents a long time ago."
Lie.
Loran (42:40):
That feels so tricky
because they can, I can see, I, it,it, um, like being recalled into
trying to support people and askingthem if something had resolved and
they kept saying, yes, yes, yes.
But it was this.
(43:01):
I actually don't want to touch thatbox because that has Pandora's box.
And the second we touched that.
Things are going to unravelin a really dangerous way.
And I think that that's somethingthat I've experienced a lot with The
Spillway is, oh, no, no, no, no, no.
We just don't talk about race.
Just don't talk about it.
I don't want to touch that.
And so I'm not racist.
(43:22):
I, I don't see color actually.
Fred (43:27):
*laughs* Right.
Loran (43:29):
And because of that, I don't have any problems.
And I think about that in terms offorgiveness, because someone and maybe
that's what colorblind racism is to acertain extent they've forgiven themselves
prematurely in this racial contract,they've forgiven themselves in something
they couldn't forgive themselves inbecause they didn't have the authority
(43:52):
or the responsibility to do that.
Fred (43:57):
And a lot of people are profoundly ignorant about the history.
Loran (44:04):
Do you think that there's more, uh, education or relation needed in the
racism conversation and ending of racism?
Fred (44:16):
Both.
Loran (44:17):
Yeah.
I agree.
Um, we are two minutes to close.
And so Fred, I just want to,uh, you very literally have
this microphone in front of you.
Um, but if you wanted to talk to Whitepeople directly, if you wanted to have an
open and vulnerable, authentic moment withWhite people, as if we haven't been having
(44:41):
that for the past 45 minutes, what do you.
Uh, want to tell to the person who isgoing on a walk right now, or doing
the laundry, or just sitting there intraffic, listening to the podcast, what
do you need them to know right now?
Fred (45:00):
I think I would ask them a question.
I would just ask them, "Can you accessthe truth of your own preciousness?"
And that's the startingplace for the discussion.
(45:20):
Can you access that?
And if you can access that,that place, can you stay there?
You use it as a starting place to, fromwhich to connect to all of life and
from which, and from which to take alook at where you put your attention.
(45:43):
With other humans.
So I'd use that as a place to start.
Loran (45:53):
I love that change starts with understanding your own preciousness.
Jenny (46:14):
I know!
Like I can't like that's whenI was like, like I just, even
now, like I'm, I can't like Iunderstanding your own preciousness.
Fuck Fred, wherever you been
for me.
(46:35):
Precious.
Like, I can't even go there yet.
I don't even know what thatmeans in terms of myself.
Like I can't even,
Loran (46:44):
yeah.
I feel like that's, that's myhomework this week, trying to
figure out why I'm precious.
Jenny (46:50):
Yeah.
I mean, not even why you are, you just are
Loran (46:56):
Fuck, you're right.
Jenny (46:58):
That's what Fred was saying.
That's why it's so fucking crazybecause Fred's like, no, no.
There's no.
Why can you just see that you are?
And I'm like,
no,
Loran (47:12):
you're right.
Thank you for that reminder.
I forgot.
Yeah, because I'm soconditioned on the condition.
I am so predisposed to have to cre-to have to do, to receive that.
It's not just like, oh no.
And even when I was like, oh, solike when you meet a man, like
(47:32):
he's inherently, what a lovable
I'm sorry, what,
Jenny (47:39):
what does he
also, I don't know how comfortableyou feel talking about this.
But you were raised in that,what Fred's talking about.
Like that's not your reality now interms of like how you identify and the
life you're living, but you were raisedin what Fred was fucking talking about.
(48:04):
Like all of that waswhat you were mired in
Loran (48:09):
and I think that that's when Fred was talking about the 12 step
program and saying that people come in,oh no, I forgive my parents years ago.
I think about so much therapy thatI have done and been in and engaged
in and like really committed to overthe past couple of decades, uh, that
I was like, oh yeah, no, I feel likeI've healed from a lot of those.
(48:31):
Um, and then in comes, Fred being Fred
Jenny (48:37):
it's like, you're lying and not, and even when he says that, it's
not like, he's not like you're a liar.
He's just like, noyou're, but you're lying.
Right.
I love you.
And you're like,
Loran (48:50):
right.
Oh my God.
Cause Fred is so fucking affirming Ilove you in your lying and you're like,
damn.
Jenny (48:57):
Yeah, you, that's what I think we should do that for each other this week.
Like, just like, Hey, just popping in toreaffirm your preciousness for no reason.
Other than that, you existand you are precious.
Like, I can't like everytime I like get Misty, like,
there's like a knot right here.
(49:17):
I like.
Loran (49:20):
I just keep
smiling.
There's so much liketension in my cheek bones.
Jenny (49:24):
Right here, like just here, because I mean, what, why is this
person not everywhere in the world?
Like I just like, I'm like, what thefuck have I been doing with my time when
there are people like Fred in the world?
(49:47):
How
precious
Loran (49:50):
oh, my God.
What if precious, this becamelike a tagline from The Spillway?
I, or like for The Spillway?
"You're Precious."
Jenny (49:57):
Yeah.
What if we did that at the end, we toldeach other we were precious and then we
told the audience or something like that.
Loran (50:05):
Yeah.
Jenny, you're precious
Jenny (50:07):
You're so
fucking precious.
*giggles*
Loran (50:11):
What
Jenny (50:12):
What
Loran (50:13):
You're precious
Jenny (50:14):
You're precious.
Loran (50:15):
We're precious.
Jenny (50:18):
Everyone's precious.
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