June 27, 2023 • 53 mins
There is no doubt that Dr. Glenn Fleisig, from the American Sports Medicine Institute, has been the leading authority on baseball pitching biomechanics.
He’s spent his entire career researching the science of baseball in an effort to reduce pitching injury rates.
In the episode, we will dig deep into the last 30-plus years of his research to learn about baseball pitching injuries.
Full show notes: https://mikereinold.com/baseball-pitching-biomechanics-with-glenn-fleisig
Want to learn more from me? I have a variety of online courses on my website!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
On this episode of the sportsphysical therapy podcast.
I am joined by Dr.
Glenn Fleisig.
Glenn's a biomechanics anddirector of research at the
American sports medicineInstitute in Birmingham,
Alabama, with Dr.
James Andrews.
Glenn has spent his entirecareer working on baseball,
pitching biomechanics, and hasreally helped shape much of what
we know about the science ofbaseball.
(00:21):
In addition to ESMI.
Glen is the founder of theAmerican baseball, biomechanics
society and advisor to MLB USAbaseball in little league
baseball.
In this episode, we're going totalk about Glenn's research over
the last 30 plus years on tryingto help reduce pitching injury
rates in baseball.
Mike (00:49):
Hey Glen, thanks so much for joining me on the podcast
today.
How is everything going?
Glenn (00:54):
Everything's great spring's here.
Baseball season's here.
Work's gone great.
Uh, life's good.
Yeah.
Mike (01:01):
I like it in an amazing baseball season too, with the
pitch clock and shorter games.
I know, you know, we'll probablyget into a little bit of that as
we get into the podcast, but Ifeel like baseball's been a
whole lot more fun this summerfor me at least.
You know, having these two and ahalf, two hour and 45 minute
games instead of four hourendeavors, right?
Glenn (01:18):
For sure.
I mean, I, I'm enjoying it fromtwo point sides of, of the coin.
Uh, as a fan, I'm, I'm lovingit.
I'm watching a game, and I'mwatching a whole game before I
have to go to sleep.
But as a, uh, sports mess andscientist, I'm involved with
Major League Baseball as anadvisor, as a consultant, and
I'm working with them on thesepitch timer rules.
And, uh, it's really been quite,uh, quite successful I think.
Mike (01:42):
Yeah.
No, I completely agree.
But, um, I'm super excited tohave you on the show.
You and I have been talkingabout doing this for a few
months now.
Um, so it's good to finally getyou on.
Um, I, I, I don't know if peoplerealize this, but you and I have
known each other for a longtime, over 25 years now.
So, um, I think that means acouple things.
One is, um, we're both old.
I think that's part of it,maybe, perhaps, but, uh, but
(02:03):
also to be honest, I, I'velearned so much from you over
the years.
But, but I really am a proudmember of the asmi family.
I'm really proud to call you oneof my mentors.
Uh, you were part of thefellowship program I did back in
the day.
Uh, but more importantly, you'rea great friend.
So, uh, I'm really excited ifthere's this episode, I know you
and I are gonna have a greatconversation because we have
these conversations and just forthe first time, we're gonna hit
(02:26):
record and share it with otherpeople, right.
Glenn (02:28):
For sure, for sure.
You know, you say things likethat and, and I am proud of
mentoring people like you.
I'm very proud of you, Mike, bythe way.
And, um, But, uh, uh, the, thecomment that really gets me best
is when people say, uh, you're agood friend.
Cuz I, I, I think personalquality's really important and,
um, I, I take that compliment.
Well, yeah.
Mike (02:47):
That's awesome.
That's awesome.
You know, I do share oftentimes,um, how we first met, which was,
um, me calling you cause Ithought this was funny.
A lot of people ask me, Hey,how'd you get into sports?
How'd you get into baseball?
How'd you get into pro sports?
And I always talk about how I,you know, I, you know, back in
the nineties, you.
You had to search out.
I'm like, so who are the bestpeople in baseball, sports,
(03:07):
medicine?
And obviously I found you in theAmerican Sports Medicine
Institute and um, I'll neverforget the day.
Um, I literally called you likeon a phone.
Like I had a landline.
You had a land.
This is before the internet,before cell phones.
And I remember, I'm like thesecond ring you just answered
like a s m i.
This is Glen.
And that's, you still answer thephone that way 25 years later
(03:27):
when I call.
It's amazing.
Um, but you picked up the phone,Glen, it was amazing.
Glenn (03:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I, I don't know if I remem, Idon't remember you've told me
this story.
I don't remember that cause Igot so many calls and stuff, but
Yeah.
Uh, I enjoyed, um, you reachingout to me and, uh, I remember
you being a, a, a fellow, or Idon't remember what it is
called, under Kevin Wilk.
And also you did research herein the lab.
I remember we did some.
Early research on, uh, emg themuscle activity during, uh, that
(03:55):
are used in exercises forbaseball pitchers and yeah, it
is.
I, I remember this journey.
Well, I'm glad it's worked outwell.
Yeah.
Mike (04:01):
Yeah, it was fun.
Some running and cutting stuffwith Gene and Steve and Nigel
and I mean, tho those were thedays.
That was, that was a fun time.
But, um, but yeah, I mean, youknow, moral of the story again
is, you know, I, I sought outthe best and I reached out and I
was just fortunate enough tofind somebody like yourself that
actually cared about givingback.
And actually, you're so open, sopatient with me, so, you know.
(04:23):
Yeah.
Come.
Come to Alabama, come doprojects with us.
Um, it was, it was really, uh,refreshing.
So, um, you know, I try to alsodo that and give back just the
way that you guys did that forme.
So thank you so much for allthat.
Glenn (04:35):
I, I wanna say on that, um, I also learned from my
mentors, uh, Dr.
Andrews and Dr.
Chuck Diman.
And I, I learned, well, maybe itwas my personality anyway, but I
learned from them, they'realways team players and
listening to other people andnever too big to listen to other
people and always willing towork with others and, and help
younger people.
So I think I give credit to someof my mentors.
Mike (04:58):
That's great.
Yeah.
We all get better together,right?
I think that's a great way ofsaying that.
So, um, well let, let's talkabout you, right?
Not about me, but let's talkabout you.
Um, you've spent your, yourentire professional life almost
studying baseball, right?
And, um, really a strict niche.
And don't get me wrong, you'vedone so many other things to so
many other sports and to rehaband surgery and all those other
(05:19):
things.
But baseball's always been yourthing.
Um, why don't we start withthat?
What, why don't, why don't youkind of tell the audience a
little bit, what made you wannafocus on this, you know, how'd
you get started working in thisarea?
Tell me a little bit about like,the origin and the beginning of
as m I.
I'd love to hear some of thatstory.
Glenn (05:35):
Well, I mean, the original plan was to be the
center theater for the New YorkMets, you know, um, as when I
was a kid, I loved baseball likea lot of our listeners do.
Um, and, uh, when I was at highschool and I did not make the,
uh, high school baseball team,but I made the high school math
team.
I thought maybe, maybe I need anew plan here, you know?
So, um, so I liked baseball andI just, uh, I went to a school
(05:58):
up in your neighborhood.
I went to MIT for college and,um, and did, did mechanical
engineering.
It, Mike and I just figured mylife would be, uh, doing
mechanical engineering, buildingmechanical things and just
playing and watching baseball onthe side.
But then at MIT there's a seniorthesis project and, uh, one lab
was doing welding of metal andone lab was doing, Circuitry for
(06:20):
cars.
And one lab was analyzing golfswings.
And I'm like, well, this, thislooks like fun.
And I walked in and talked tothat professor there, Dr.
Uh, Robert Mann.
And I said, um, what's this?
Can I do my senior project here?
Sure.
And I worked with this other,uh, master graduate student
doing a, a golf swing.
And uh, afterwards I told Dr.
Man, 1984, this was 1983, Isaid, uh, I want to, um, get a
(06:44):
job doing this biomechanics,this sports biomechanics, and.
It's, it's, uh, 40 years ago,but I remember this was still to
the day, Mike.
I said, Dr.
Mann, I want to do a job doingsports biomechanics.
And he, and he laughed in myface.
He said, Glen, there are no jobsdoing this, you know, and so,
uh, uh, but he said, I do know,uh, that there's a internship,
(07:04):
uh, at the Olympic, UnitedStates Olympic Training Center
in Colorado Springs, Colorado.
And so he hooked me up with aprofessor there.
And, uh, I went there and Iworked for, Uh, for 1984, I
worked under, uh, Dr.
Chuck Diman, who I've mentionedalready.
And, um, 1984 was very excitingfor the old timers who remember
the Olympics were in the UnitedStates that year in Los Angeles.
(07:25):
So it was very exciting and Iworked for Dr.
Diman and uh, and then I said, Iwant to get into baseball and do
a career like this.
He said, there's a young up andcoming doctor named Dr.
Jim Andrews, and he introducedme to Dr.
Andrews in 1980.
Four, you know, and, um, and Italked to Dr.
Andrews in 1984 and we reallyhit it off on the phone.
And he's telling me his vision.
He was still working in, uh,Georgia at the time.
(07:48):
And, uh, anyway, um, great.
I thought I had something goinghere and, and at the end he
said, okay, but I'm not ready tostart my institute, he said.
So it was kind of a way.
So I hung up and went on with mylife.
Uh, three years later, threeyears later, I'm visiting my mom
and dad for Thanksgiving in NewYork.
And, uh, mom says, uh,Thanksgiving 1987 says a phone
(08:11):
call for you, Glen, up.
I'm like, who's calling me at myparents' house?
I don't live here anymore.
And, um, it is a, a guy whoworked with Dr.
Andrews and they said, we'reready.
He's still interested.
And I'm like, yeah.
And then so I rearranged my lifeand dropped everything and
started the Asm I with Dr.
Andrews and others in 1987.
I, I, I, you know, you'retalking about pre-internet.
(08:32):
Um, for when you called me, Italked to these guys in 1984 and
three years later I, maybe hekept my mom and dad's phone
number on a piece of paper.
I mean, I, I don't know.
But anyway, they found me andthe rest is history.
Started a nine as m i in 1987.
I was 25 and it was, uh, Ididn't know.
I was just, I was confident and,uh, um, and, uh, we'd done well.
(08:57):
Yeah, that's the start of asi.
Mike (08:59):
That's, that's pretty amazing.
And you know, obviously you'vedone more than, well, I mean, I,
I don't even know at this point.
How many publications do youhave?
Do you even keep track anymore?
Glenn (09:07):
I do, well first, uh, I have to give my CV sometimes to
people with all my papers andpresentations and, uh, cuz I'm
giving a conference talk orwhatever and they're like, wow.
It, my, my CV is 75 pages and soit has hundreds of presentations
and, uh, thousands ofpresentations and hundreds of
publications and.
(09:27):
Uh, I don't know.
Yeah.
A
Mike (09:29):
it's, it, it's impressive.
It's impressive.
I, I just looked you up onPubMed to see, you know, I
always like to see when peopleare coming on the podcast, like,
obviously I follow you in yourresearch, but I wanted to see
what, what you've done in thelast, you know, few months to
year, just to see what's kind oflike brewing in your head.
And again, just like, it's,it's, it's dozens, so it's,
it's, you know, so I'm like, allright, we'll stick to baseball.
(09:49):
We'll have a fun talk onbaseball cause we can talk about
so many
Glenn (09:52):
one of the, one of the, uh, hidden secrets though is uh,
uh, As m i, we've published alot of things on baseball and
other things, you know, andrunning and cutting and, and
knee surgery.
But, uh, one of the hiddensecrets is we don't have the
size of a staff of a universitywith, with 10 professors and 30
graduate students.
We're just a handful of peoplewith a dozen doctors, and, uh, I
(10:16):
I, I think it's prettyefficient.
While we do, we, we, we've beenvery productive.
Yeah.
Mike (10:20):
You call it efficient, I'll call it impressive for you
because I guess you can't dothat to yourself.
But, um, but yeah, no, I mean,super impressive.
But, but more important thanimpressive or efficient clan.
Impactful.
And that's the thing, you guysstarted something in 1987 that,
um, was so ahead of the game,which was just so different with
what you did and how youanalyzed things and the amount
(10:42):
of scientific information thatyou started putting together in
sports.
Um, it, it changed the game.
And I think it, it reallychanged a lot of people like
myself in, in like the healthallied fields to see
differently, to seemechanically, to see stresses
and the effect of the way thebody moves on torque and things
like that.
So, uh, you, you guys have had adramatic impact on that stuff.
(11:05):
So again, like I, I don't wantto keep thanking you for things
cuz this, this is becoming aweird podcast, but, but thank
you for all you've done for us.
Glenn (11:14):
Yeah, I wanna say, uh, one, one of the things we've
tried to do is to be differentthan a university where we're
not just trying to do a researchthat goes on some academic
bookshelf or some on theinternet.
Uh, and we're not just trying tobe a clinic like you have at, at
Champion Sports Medicine.
We're, we're kind of an odd birdand we, we set it up, we
designed it 35 years ago to be aresearch center.
(11:34):
But has practical use toclinicians, physicians, physical
therapists, and, and ourbaseball course that you speak
at every year.
Um, I think that that's one ofthe highlights of our, our our
year because we have ourresearch.
But again, we don't just want togo on the bookshelf.
We wanted to get in the hands ofthe people listening to this
podcast, uh, physicaltherapists, et cetera, and have
(11:56):
it be, uh, practical andscientific.
Mike (11:59):
Yeah.
And, and, and again, to, to justharp on that one thing, but you,
you, you answered clinicalquestions, right?
And I think that's where, wherethe impact comes from so many
times is that the, the researchyou published was conducted
because somebody had a clinicalquestion and then you guys
sought to, to, to figure it out.
Um, And, and that is, that'ssuch a cool way of, of doing it.
(12:21):
So, um, well, let, let's talkabout that a little bit.
So, o over your career, you've,I don't know, you've focused on
a lot of things, but I, I thinkit's safe to say that you've
placed a very large focus onunderstanding the science of
baseball, but in a way so thatway we can, we can hopefully
reduce injury rates.
It seems to be.
Almost like an underlying themein everything you've done in
(12:41):
your career.
So, um, let's start off withthat, which it could be a six
hour dissertation that we'reabout to talk about here, but
that's the big question.
You know, it's been 30 plusyears.
Can you summarize your researchon what are the biggest risks,
risk factors, what have youlooked at?
What have you identified?
It's a big question.
I apologize for that, but it's agood question and you're the guy
(13:04):
to answer it.
Glenn (13:05):
Yeah.
Um, okay.
So, uh, baseball pitchinginjuries, again, the reason we
it's so well set up for us tostudy is that it's, uh,
repetition injuries and it'sfrom essentially self-inflicted.
Uh, you know, it'd be nice toprevent all the ACL injuries in
football, but you, you know, theadvice would be watch out for
that big guy about to tackleyou, you know, but the baseball
(13:26):
pitchers essentially are, areinjured often too often, and
also it's, uh, from repetitionof the same mechanics again, and
as a biomechanist.
That's why I love studying itbecause we could look at the
mechanics, uh, uh, pitching evenother things like football,
quarterback or, or, or tennis,uh, ground strokes.
(13:47):
They're not totally repeatablecause you're always in a
slightly different position.
But golf swings and baseballpitches are really well suited
for biomechanics.
Um, as far as the, uh, answer toyour question about the factors,
uh, related to baseball pitchinginjuries, There are a few
buckets.
One is pitching biomechanics orpitching mechanics.
(14:09):
Uh, the other one is, uh, howoften you throw and how much you
rest and strength andconditioning.
I think those are, um, you know,how much do you prepare your
body?
Uh, how much do you do and howwell do you do it, essentially?
Okay.
And so if you look at that,strength and conditioning is,
uh, super important for gettingthe body right, and I've seen
you and.
(14:29):
Uh, uh, Kevin and everyone, uh,over the years change how you do
things evolve, which is good.
We, we wanna train baseballpitchers, not football linemen
who are playing baseball in theoff season.
I mean, um, so that's superimportant.
The mechanics and the pitchtypes and the pitch amounts are
important.
We thought curve balls might bethe most important thing for the
(14:51):
kids, but turns out it's not.
The most important thing for theamateur pitchers is amount of
pitching and, uh, Uh, injuriesand Tommy John's surgeries are
up in high school more thanever.
But the thing that's changed,you know, kids have always
thrown curve balls or kids.
Some kids have always had goodmechanics and some had bad
mechanics.
But when I was a kid, you playedbaseball in the spring and then
(15:12):
you play football in the fall orother sports.
But now kids specialize at, atone age, and this is the single
biggest issue, problem,whatever, Mike, for the amateur
baseball player, which is uh,uh, single sports
specialization.
And year round pitching thebody, uh, needs periodization,
whether periodization during theweek or periodization during a
(15:35):
year.
And the playing year round isthe biggest problem from the
pros.
It's a, it is the opposite.
The pros, uh, have professional,uh, people looking after them.
They don't pitch five days aweek on two travel teams or
whatever.
So the pros, uh, the pro teamsare very much, uh, have a handle
(15:55):
on, on work volume.
Some people might say they'reeven Uh, babying them and, you
know, and, and limiting theirwork volume.
But, but they have a handle onit.
They're trying to, uh, balancethe work volume for the pros.
I think the big thing is, uh,mechanics, which is big on both
ends and, uh, and intensity.
Okay.
And, um, and really this lovefor the radar gun, whether it is
(16:18):
high school or a kid in LatinAmerica or the pros, uh, it's
kind of flip-flop Mike.
And, um, and people think the.
The object to get drafted or, orrecruited to a college or to get
caught to the pros is whoeverhas the highest score on the
radar gun.
It used to be whoever had thelowest era A or whatever, but,
um, so the pitchers are, areaiming to max out their velocity
(16:44):
as much as possible, as high aspossible.
And, you know, strength andconditioning and proper
mechanics, part of it'sbackfiring.
We're giving people the properstrength and conditioning.
And the proper biomechanicsenabling their body to get this
maximum velocity.
But they're not using it, right?
They're not tapping it sometimesand backing off sometimes that
(17:04):
is, that's really their, that'sgonna be the, um, secret to
duration and success.
Longevity and, and, andprofessional baseball.
Uh, knowing when to go a hundredpercent and went to back off a
little, but people are justgoing max effort and through
mechanics and, uh, conditioning.
We're able to have the baseballpitchers, uh, get maximum
(17:27):
velocity by, uh, proper timingof their body, proper strength
and power of their muscles.
And the, and the losers in allthis are their ligaments and
tendons, holding the jointstogether because all the
strength and conditioning, allthe mechanics, uh, they are
optimizing what the muscles do,but the ligaments and tendons,
(17:47):
um, are maxed out.
And, and, and that's, that's a30 year summary.
In, uh, five minutes, I guess.
Mike (17:55):
I, I think that's, that's fantastic.
And let, let, let's, let's hiteach one a little bit more in
detail.
Cause I think people really liketo hear this though, but pitch
types.
I think, um, there's been anevolution with pitch types.
I think in the eighties it wasthat the split finger was evil.
The nineties was the curve ballwas evil.
Right.
Um, I, and I think you, youreally started to show that
really that, uh, stress justcomes down to velocity almost.
(18:19):
And when, when you have a changeup or even a curve ball that
maybe at a, a little bit lessarm speed, for example, um,
that's probably more indicativeto stress than some of the, the
differences in pitch types.
Is that a pretty good summary?
Glenn (18:33):
Well, again, we have kids and we have adults, uh, pros or
Mike (18:36):
Good point.
Right.
Glenn (18:37):
we've done, uh, us our lab and other labs have done
numerous biomechanic studies andlet's just talk about what
biomechanic studies are.
Biomechanic studies are, arepitchers, Uh, we put these
reflective dots all up and downtheir body, and we have these
cameras that quantify theirthree-dimensional motion, and
then we measure their motionsand we calculate their forces as
well.
So that's biomechanics in a 30seconds.
(19:00):
But we've done biomechanicstudies, uh, where we measure
what are the forces on the elbowand shoulder during all these
different pitch types.
Um, and what we found, we didstudies for youth, we did
studies for high school and forpros, and what we consistently
find, Is that the fastballcurve, ball and slider are all
(19:21):
high stress pitches on the elbowand shoulder.
The change up consistently showsless stress on the elbow and
shoulder, but the, the point isthe curve ball does not show
more or less on the fast ball.
The curve ball, fast, fastball,and slider are all in this
stress bucket.
All right, and now what we alsofind is picture A and picture B.
(19:44):
If pitcher A has good mechanics,he's pitching all these things
with a certain amount of stress.
Pitcher B, who has the samevelocity, but stinky mechanics,
that's a technical term, stinkymechanic.
He, um, he could have the samevelocity, but he's applying a
lot more force on his elbow andshoulder.
So your mechanics are moreimportant than you pitch type.
(20:07):
And the amount you pitch is moreimportant than you pitch type.
And then the last thing on thismic, uh, I, moving to the next
topic, is the, uh, intensity.
We've done studies looking at,uh, let's say fastballs thrown
at different intensities.
We, we've, uh, we have a, anumber of pitchers who've thrown
fastballs and just by dumb lockat their fastballs ranged about,
(20:28):
let's say five miles per hour.
They were trying to throw, throwfull effort, but they didn't
always.
Anyway, what we found out is,uh, once again, The stress on a
elbow and shoulder for pitcher Aversus pitcher B is really
dictated by if he has goodmechanics or bad mechanics.
But within a pitcher, uh, hisfaster throws are always more
(20:52):
stressful always than his fastballs that are a few miles per
hour slower.
So if you're trying to avoidinjury, you wanna avoid the
accumulation of microtrauma inyour elbow or shoulder, in your,
in your UCL or EL elsewhere.
And so you don't wanna keepdoing max effort pitches that
(21:12):
are doing the maximum attentionon the ligaments and tendons.
You need to mix in some, uh,lower intensity pitches.
Mike (21:21):
I, I think that's a great way of saying it too.
And you've, you, you've kind ofalluded to a couple things here
when you're talking about in ourworld, in the health and fitness
world, where we talk aboutworkload and capacity quite a
bit, and you started this off bytalking about strength and
conditioning on how we've, we'vereally increased our capacity as
much as we can.
Then we talked about overuseand, and thrown with high
velocity.
All year round.
(21:41):
You talked about that workload.
Um, you know, to me, I, I'vealways taken your biomechanical
data that we've, we've learnedover the years and just used it
for, for exactly what you said,each person's different, right.
If, if you or I throw a 95 mileper hour fastball, that's gonna
be a lot stressful to ourbodies, then it is that six
foot, 6, 250 pound guy that'sreally strong, really powerful,
(22:03):
and has much better mechanicsthan you and I.
Right?
So it's not that 95.
Is is the challenge.
It's just that it, it's justthat pitchers are almost, uh,
maximizing everything.
They're maximizing theirstrength, their power, their
mobility.
They're maximizing theirmechanics, and they're putting
themselves at the end of theirphysiological limits more often.
(22:24):
And then, They train that wayall freaking winter now.
Right.
And that's, I think that's thepart that blows my mind is that
they're doing that all winternow and that that's where we're
seeing so much it Does that,does that make sense to you from
a biomechanical perspective?
Is that in line with yourthoughts?
Glenn (22:40):
yeah, a hundred percent.
You know, uh, when you'retalking there, I, I think that
the.
The expression, they're, they'reredlining.
They're, they're, they'repushing themselves to the red
line.
And I thought, if I drive mycar, if you drive your car and
you had your foot floored thegas pedal constantly, and the,
uh, odometer is, uh, is, uh, isit called the odometer?
What?
(23:00):
Teter is all the way, maxed outthe whole time.
Uh, yeah.
Your engine's gonna wear out.
And, and, and same.
So you can't drive maxed out allthe time.
And, and likewise.
Your arms are the same way.
Uh, it's different because we'realive and we, um, and, and we,
we heal.
But, uh, but it is the sameanalogy that, uh, you can't be
(23:23):
max effort every pitch and then12 months a year.
It, it, it's that this is whypeople are breaking down.
Mike (23:30):
Yeah.
And, and you know, to me too, Ithink it's important to realize
this, when, when we develop ourinterval throwing programs and
our progressions that we do, we,we understand a little bit of
the data about it.
Some of the newer rehabclinicians are very linear
thinking and very, like thinkingeverything's perfect.
Um, it, if you're throwing, ifyou throw a nine five mile per
hour fastball and you are in,you're throwing program and
(23:51):
you're throwing 80, 85 mile perhours, that is.
That is a significant reductionin stress on your ligaments,
your capsule, your tendons, allthose things that it, it's, I
don't wanna say it's not veryimpactful, but people don't
understand that if you throw 85miles miles per hour, that is
significantly less stressful onyour body.
(24:12):
You could do that all day andnot get injured.
It's it.
It's when you go max effort thatpeople don't understand.
So, you know, we talk aboutthis, you and I, I think we've
had this conversation.
I know Kevin and I shared this,but the pictures that can sit
91, 2, 3, 4, but then reach backand throw 98 when they're, you
know, when they're, you know,three, two count, or, you know,
bases loaded.
(24:33):
Uh, those pictures tend to be somuch more durable than the one
that their mean velocity is 97and their max velocity is 97.5.
Right.
Have you looked at that at all?
Glenn (24:42):
A hundred percent, no.
Uh, I, uh, some of the MLB teamshave talked to me about this and
they have data analytics peoplelooking at it, but I, I, I, this
is what I've proposed.
I haven't looked at it.
Um, it's not just maximumeffort.
I, I would look at a standarddeviation or, or the range of
your fastball velocities as muchas what your top festival
(25:03):
velocity is and, and the guyswith the bigger range or
standard aviation, I wouldsuspect, I haven't looked at it,
I would suspect they're moredurable.
For this very reason, you know,you're talking about, um, the
ligaments and tendons and, uh,they're, they're really elast,
aplastic, uh, uh, tissue andwhich is like a rubber band
(25:23):
basically.
And if you had a rubber band andyou were stretching it at max
effort a hundred times, um,that's a lot more stress on the
rubber band than's stressing itat half effort, fif, uh, 200
times.
Uh, you could do it all day.
You could stress a rubber bandat half effort all day.
And just like you said, the, thepitcher.
At reduced effort, his ligamentsand antennas could take that,
(25:45):
and I can't say all day, but alot with, with very little
accumulate damage from reducedeffort throws.
Mike (25:52):
Yeah.
And, and I'm seeing, uh, kind ofa flip here too with, with a lot
of the coaches, most of theskill development coaches, but
also some of the younger, youknow, rehab and, and performance
people.
You know, the concept that aligament like the Tommy John
ligament, your ucl for example,that it needs stress to get more
resilient.
Um, it, it's, it's taking themodel for muscle mass
(26:13):
development where you have tobreak down the muscle to build
it back up more and applying itto a, a ligament, it doesn't
work that way.
Right, right.
So now I'm just a rehab guy, butcan the biomechanics guy explain
that?
Glenn (26:25):
You totally right.
You're, you're a medical guyand, uh, the vascularity and the
healing of the ligaments andtendons is a different model
than the muscles.
It is poor vascularity comparedto the muscles, and it doesn't
work on that.
Uh, That hill model, uh,approach where you, uh, have
damage to the muscle and then itheals and that's how the muscle,
(26:47):
uh, adapts and becomes stronger.
The ligaments and tendons, Idon't see it that way.
I see it that they are gettingdamage and they, uh, uh, uh, uh,
ligament tendon tear is whenyou've had damage adding up
quicker than you've allowed timefor it to heal because it heals
slower than muscle.
Mike (27:05):
That, that, that's perfect.
And, and we, we see a lot ofpeople that are trying to take
that model and say, well, that'swhy we want to stress them so
aggressively all winter is cuzwe wanna build up capacity to
that ligament.
And what it's actually doing isbackfiring.
It's doing the exact opposite.
Um.
One of the best studies I thinkthat came out, you know, no
offense to all your amazingresearch, but was a charmer's
(27:26):
study with the ultrasound of theligament over the course of a
season, and then after thesubsequent off season that
showed that over the course of aseason, your ligament got loose,
it got swollen.
Over the course of the winter,it actually got tighter and less
swollen.
It healed.
It healed up a little bit fromthat acute trauma.
And if we don't do that, I'mreally scared that you're just
gonna have this ligament gettinglooser and looser and looser and
(27:48):
then just having this microdamage.
And I, I think that is probablysingle-handedly the most, uh,
important thing that we need tochange right now is that people
need to understand that addingstress to a ligament isn't, uh,
it, it's not the same as amuzzle.
I, I don't know how else to sayit, but I think that's huge
right now.
Glenn (28:06):
I, I completely agree.
Completely agree.
Mike (28:08):
Yeah.
Love it.
Oh, let, let, let's talk TommyJohn just for a second, because
I do know that's huge right now.
Tommy John injuries are throughthe roof.
You know, we always joke, youknow, you and I, we speak at a
lot of baseball conferences,right?
And I usually get up there inone of my first intros if it's a
new crowd, right?
Um, I'll say like, you know,this has been an amazing
conference.
Uh, we've been doing this fordecades and injuries seem to get
(28:29):
be getting worse, so I don'tknow what we're doing wrong.
Right.
But let, let's talk UCL in, uh,specifically, just because
again, they're going through theroof.
I think we know that it's thiscombination of velocity and it's
this combination of, uh,workload.
Management where, uh, people arejust doing too much.
But what I want to hear from youis what specifically
(28:50):
mechanically are, are we doingto put extra stress on the
ligament?
Are there certain thingsmechanically that we should work
towards improving that we're,we're almost putting too much
stress on the ligament withcertain types of mechanics.
Glenn (29:05):
Yeah, good question.
So proper mechanics, we've donea lot of studies on this and,
uh, it's kind of a double-edgedsword.
Sometimes, uh, we have peopleoptimize or fix their mechanics
and they get more ball velocity,but it, it is putting a high
stress on your whole body.
Uh, it's a tough question toanswer, Mike.
I could say some of the majorflaws I could explain real
(29:27):
quickly some of the major flaws.
Or a, a late arm, in otherwords, at foot contact, uh, when
the, when the front footcontacts, the throwing hand
should be, uh, raised above theelbow.
Shouldn't be vertically abovethe elbow, but it should be on
their way up.
And, uh, um, a lot, somepitchers who are late for
whatever reason, where theirwrist is still below their elbow
(29:49):
at foot contact, first foottouch, um, they, their arms
playing catch up, and that'sgonna be extra loader on their
elbow and their shoulder.
To try to basically catch up andthrow.
Uh, another thing we see,especially in the kids, is not
using their trunk.
Uh, little kids, not, not evenlittle high school, let's say
pre-pubescent especially, uh,they don't have a core trunk
(30:13):
strength, so they essentiallyrotate their hips or pelvis at
the same time as their uppertrunk.
They just rotated his one unitversus the, uh, skilled adult
pitcher rotates his pelvis belowhis shoulders, keeping his
shoulders.
Uh, in line with, uh, thethrowing target and then have,
then the, the trunk, uh,contributes energy as well.
(30:34):
Um, those are a couple of thethings, and then also the front
knee.
Um, when gonna pitch it pitchesproperly.
The more, more important thanstride length.
Mike is, uh, foot position, andI want the foot a little to the
closed side.
So for right-handed picture alittle.
A little to the, the third baseside and, and point it a little
inward as well because that putsthe foot in a strong position to
(30:56):
land, kind of catch your weight.
And then if the pitcher isstrong enough and has good
mechanics, they will actually,their knee will bend a little
when they catch your weight, butthen they extend their knee or
straighten their knee a little,passing the energy up their lead
hip and up their body.
So those are some of the keymechanics that if you don't do
that, you end up essentiallyjust throwing with your arm.
Mike (31:17):
I, I think that's a great way of saying it too.
Uh, especially with the youth,right?
Just you, you've studied thatspecifically.
You can look up those articles,but you know, to, to see that.
I think that's probably one ofthe bigger things we do with our
youth in the gym.
Is we teach them how todisassociate.
We teach them how to separate,um, not just, Hey, work on this
mobility.
It's actually more learning howto like, hey, keep your
(31:39):
shoulders back and fire yourhips forward, for example.
Right?
There's, there's like a motorcontrol patterning that they
need to develop to be able to dothat.
Um, so it, it, you know, it'sreally interesting that.
To see that in the youth modelwhen we get to the adults, it's
kind of funny.
I feel like we're, we're pushingthe envelope as a profession to
increase velocity and almosteverything we do to increase
(31:59):
velocity seems to also increasestress, right?
So if you're trying to bringyour, your elbow inside 90, for
example, or you're trying to bea little bit late, almost like
that inverted w um, you, youknow, we all get to ball release
at the same time.
Right.
So if you have more time fromfoot plant to ball release and
you have more angles to getthrough, you'll have more
angular velocity.
(32:20):
And that's how we try to explainit to the kids about, like these
things like, you know, inside 90where we're bringing the ball by
the air, it just makes it seemlike everything we're doing to
just get a half tick of a, of amile per hour or a mile per hour
or anything.
It could be, um, we'reincreasing stress and then you
again, you do it over and overagain.
That workload capacity equationthat seems to be.
(32:41):
You know, some of the problemswe're seeing is that we're
trying to eek out everything.
So I, I know we're, we're kindof, we're saying the same thing
over and over again, buthopefully that'll help, uh,
deliver the message, right,Glen?
Glenn (32:50):
I, I, I do, I do wanna add, uh, you, you did point out
one more flaw that's, that'skind of in vogue these days,
which is the short arm for thepitcher, meaning, uh, they're
bringing the ball there, thethrowing hand closer to the ear,
uh, and flexing their elbowmore.
And our studies have shown thatthat is not optimal, that the
elbow should be flexed about 90degrees.
Not more than 90 degrees whereyou hold it.
(33:12):
And so even though that's beingtaught a lot, I biomechanically
it's not as good.
Mike (33:18):
And, and so shortsighted to me.
So what's the benefit of that?
So, okay, you increase angularvelocity of elbow extension by a
little bit.
I mean, that is so low on mylist of important things to
develop in a baseball pitcher,right?
Is, you know, uh, is elbowextension angular velocity?
It just seems
Glenn (33:37):
not even sure.
I'm not even sure it does that.
Uh, there there are a coupleanecdote.
There are a couple anecdotalguys in Major League Baseball
who have done well and theneveryone's kind of jumped on the
bandwagon.
But I think it's a mistake.
I've tested, I've testedthousands of pitchers, hundreds
of pro pitchers, Cy Young Awardwinners, and, and you, and
they've bend their elbow 90degrees.
The successful ones, not more.
Mike (33:58):
That's exactly right.
You know, and, and I hate to sayit, I have to admit, I do work
with a couple of those guys, soI know who you're talking about.
And, and yes, they weresuccessful, got popular people
looked at it.
Uh, to me I almost think it'smore about, uh, hiding the ball
longer than it is anything else.
I think that's why they weresuccessful from it.
Um, but that was just because itwas helpful for them to hide the
(34:20):
ball.
Right.
That doesn't mean it'll behelpful for you to hide the
ball.
So, you know, again, it's, it'severybody has to develop their
own thing.
The worst thing we couldpossibly do for pitching
development right now isInstagram.
Right.
Um, and it's just, you know, ifyou're trying to do something
that worked on somebody else,it's probably not gonna be
optimal for you.
Right.
I'm guilty of that with my golfswing.
Right.
So it's the same thing.
Glenn (34:40):
Yeah.
Again, uh, on the internet thereare a lot of, uh, pro, uh,
experts.
I'm doing my quote.
You can see with the fingerswho, uh, who say, here's how,
here's how so-and-so pitches,and they show, uh, Uh,
photograph a photograph of oneparticular major league pitcher
and say, therefore do this.
And the photograph sometimes isnot taken at the exact time.
They said like, here's picture Aand picture B in comparison, but
(35:02):
they're not taking at the exactsame time.
It's just, it's not fullscientific data that we, we
have.
It's just a blip and ananecdotal observation.
Mike (35:11):
Right, right.
It's tough to draw a conclusionfrom that.
I agree.
So, um, well, you know, oneother thing I wanted to touch
upon in this podcast before weget going is, um, the future.
Um, more and more teams, bothpro and college.
They're, they're building labs.
They're hiring, hiringbiomechanists.
So, Remember, go back to yourprofessor from 1984 that laughed
at you.
Okay.
(35:31):
It, it took 40 years, but we gotit.
We're hiring Biomechanists nowwithin pro baseball.
It's a thing now.
Uh, but we're pushing thatenvelope with that biomechanical
data.
Um, the stadiums have built inbiomechanical.
Cameras everywhere.
It's, it's, it's amazing thetech and baseball.
Uh, can you share with us, Iknow you're involved at MLB at a
higher level with, with stuff,but what, what are some of the
(35:52):
exciting things coming in thefuture for, for biomechanics,
maybe even tech and baseball,but what's really exciting you
right now,
Glenn (35:58):
All right, Mike.
Uh, I, I saw this coming five or10 years ago.
I have this, when I gave one ofthese speeches here, they said,
what do I think of in thefuture?
I said this like 12 years ago,and I said, I think what's gonna
come is a markerless motioncapture.
Uh, that's what I'm excitedabout.
And, and it has come.
And so one day, Dr.
Andrews and I are noticing hereat a S M I, many years ago, five
(36:22):
or 10 years, five years ago, Um,that, uh, less and less teams
are sending pictures to us herein Birmingham.
And, uh, and, uh, I'm thinkingwhat, so we could either stick
our head into the mud, I figuredat this point, and try to be
stubborn and stay where we areor see what's happening.
And I'm so excited now and gladI chose this to, um, to embrace
(36:43):
that we're not the only show intown that biomechanics is coming
throughout baseball.
The markerless motion capturethat it just alluded to is a big
reason.
And so what it is, is, like Ijust said earlier, um,
biomechanics is typically youput these reflective markers up
and down your body just, justlike they do when the video
games or, uh, or special effectsfor movies.
(37:04):
And, and then you, you wearspecial clothes and you have,
uh, reflective markers, specialcameras, computers.
But the technology now, themarkerless motion capture, there
are a few companies that aredoing, uh, multiple camera or
single camera.
I'll touch on this in a second,but essentially, They are
allowing people to do it whohave less biomechanics
(37:27):
expertise.
Plus it's more versatile.
You could actually get in-gamedata cuz very few of the pros
are wearing little silver dotsup and down their body, you
know.
So, uh, we saw this coming and,uh, so one thing we did, uh, we
started what's called theAmerican Baseball Biomechanic
Society.
We started this in 2020.
At the beginning of 2020, we hadno idea a pandemic was about to
(37:50):
start.
But we started a society calledthe, uh, uh, American Baseball
Mechanic Society.
Anyone listening here can join,uh, my treat.
I'll pay for your membershipbecause it's free.
Okay?
And, uh, and, uh, you don't haveto be a biomechanist to join it.
And so this society is tryingto, uh, standardize and share
(38:10):
the knowledge, uh, of what'shappening in baseball
biomechanics.
In addition, the markerlessmotion capture systems has
enabled teams to have their ownequipment.
And hire biomechanist.
Again, with the abbs, with thesociety, we're trying to, um,
standardize or coordinate athing.
So, um, this is what I'm reallyexcited about, that
(38:31):
Biomechanists, uh, is aprofession now baseball
biomechanist, like you said, myprofessor wouldn't laugh at me.
Now, uh, there are jobs doingthis and I'm very excited that
through this A, B B S, we'retrying to, um, uh, share
knowledge and, uh, really helpeverybody.
Mike (38:48):
That's great.
That's awesome.
And it, and it's a great societythat you guys started.
Um, I'm a member.
You should join too.
Um, I think that's, uh, animportant thing to do.
So, um, yeah, the future'sexciting.
Um, all right, last question.
And it goes back to thebeginning, right?
We're gonna come full circle,just like a Seinfeld episode,
but.
Pitch clock, what do we got?
Is it good?
Is it is?
(39:08):
Is it gonna harm people?
What do you think?
Is there gonna be an injury riskon the pitch clock?
Because the satisfaction of thegames, from the perspective and
from the players, everybodyloves it.
But is there a concern?
Is this, you know, fatigue unitthat we should be looking at
with people pitching so rapidly?
Are you worried about it in.
Glenn (39:24):
well, you know, in 1968 they lowered the mound and they
gave it a try and, and thingsworked out well, you know, and,
uh, and so, but we we're live ina different time.
Now, you don't just kind of say,Hey, let's give it a try.
So Major League baseball hassystematically got to this
place.
They've asked myself and otherscientists to try to study some
of these things.
There've been some studies on,uh, whether, uh, it, whether
(39:49):
timing affects pitchers.
Uh, plus then it, major leaguebaseball, professional baseball
starts slowly and does it inminor league baseball before
major league baseball.
So it's not just willy-nilly.
It's um, It's systematicallygone about it in minor leagues.
I don't have the data in frontof me, but I, my understanding
is it really did not have aneffect on the injury rates to
(40:13):
minor league pitchers.
If it did, they'd back offbefore we put it in pro, in
major league baseball.
But in major league baseball,there's not enough data yet.
It's just been a few months and,uh, and it's not, it's been an
adjustment period.
Obviously we see it from aperformance point of view with
the, uh, umpires calling, um,Pitch, pitch time or violation
(40:33):
on batters and pitchers.
It's a learning thing.
Bottom line is I am confident,uh, that it will not have an
effect on the risk of injuries,uh, for pitchers, for, uh, and
the intangibles.
I think, um, the positionplayers and everybody, uh,
shorter games, less timestanding out there.
(40:54):
I think, uh, for the health ofeverybody, mental, physical
health, I think the shortergames are gonna be good.
Mike (41:01):
Yeah, that's, I, I, I think that's enormous.
And I would say just anecdotallyfrom one team experience, it's
been, you know, a couple monthsinto the season now, this is
when Glen and I are recordingthis.
Um, I don't think anybody hasany impact right now.
Um, at the beginning there, itwas an adjustment.
There.
It was, it was rapid.
So they, you know, they were alittle fatigued going through it
the first few times, but wetrained that way.
(41:22):
We did our bullpens that waythis winter.
We got spring training goingthat way, and I, I think they,
uh, you know, they acclimated tothe, to the stress.
So I think it went, um, Youknow, really well.
Um, but, you know, I, Iremember, you know, to your last
point, I think that was a greatpoint, is the position players
too.
And not everybody realizes that,but I remember one year with the
Red Sox, we had a decent amountof, of injuries and I was trying
(41:45):
to do some risk analysis stuffand try to figure out what this
was.
Um, and I remember this, the RedSox were the number one team.
In minutes played per game, youknow, because they led the
league, I think that year inpitches per played appearance
among other things.
But that was a big thing.
But we had the longest games.
The shortest team, I think thatyear was the Baltimore Orioles
and I did the equivalent of theMajor League mean, uh, minutes
(42:08):
per game.
And the Red Sox played theequivalent of 16 more games than
the Orioles by minutes.
That's crazy, right?
So think about that.
Every, every pitch the secondbasement has to.
Do a squat, right, like a minisquat to get in that position.
You know, they, you know, theirknees start to get banged up.
It, it was impactful.
So, um, but that's great tohear.
(42:28):
I'm glad you don't think thatthere's, uh, you know, a
negative effect because it seemslike it's really helping the
game.
So, um, you know, appreciatepeople like yourself being
involved with that because it's,it's been great.
All right, before we let you go,the high five, we're gonna end
five quick questions, five quickanswers, kind of learn a little
about, about, about you, anexperienced, established leader
in this field.
I, I, I want to hear a littlebit more about you.
(42:50):
So first question is, what areyou, Glen, currently doing
yourself for your ownprofessional development?
What are you working on?
What are you reading?
What are you trying to getbetter at?
Where are you right now?
Glenn (42:59):
Yeah, uh, um, I'm trying to get better.
Uh, I'm, I'm really thismarvelous motion capture.
I'm really studying it from topto bottom.
Not only is it used in baseball,it's gonna be used in physical
therapy.
And I, I alluded to it before,there's multi-camera and there's
single camera systems.
A multi-camera systemessentially works like the
multi-camera marker systemwhere, um, where it tries to
(43:21):
figure out in three dimensionspace where they are.
The single camera systems arepretty interesting.
They're artificial intelligenceand, um, they're gonna be using
physical therapy clinic.
You basically set up a, a cellphone and try to do things.
So I'm really trying to learn.
How that's, uh, working, notjust trust the people making it,
that it works.
I'm trying to validate it andunderstand how it works.
(43:42):
Uh, I guess that's one thing I'mworking on.
Another thing I'm working on,uh, that's new in our lab is,
uh, you alluded to it beforeabout the big guy versus the
little guy pitching.
We're one of the studies we, westarted here at Asmis in our
cadaver lab where, as you know,we do research on cadavers and
elbows and shoulders and kneesand stuff.
And we're, I'm trying to see if,um, If, if, uh, body height and
(44:05):
weight, uh, are proportional toUCL strength, your ligament
strength, uh, if a guy is 30%bigger, uh, was his ligament 30%
stronger or is it unrelated?
Because, um, in biomechanics wescale the forces and torques by
weight and height.
(44:25):
But, uh, but should we be doingthat?
I don't know.
I don't know.
If a guy is 30% bigger, has abigger ligament, A strong, a
ligament or not.
So that's one thing we'reworking on also.
Mike (44:36):
Yeah, that's a good question.
Everybody's different, right?
I mean that, that's a goodquestion.
Um, I know this is supposed tobe like the fast, lightning
round, but I got anotherquestion I gotta ask.
So are, are iPhones ever gonnaget to the point where we can
measure depth?
Is it gonna be there?
Glenn (44:48):
Yeah.
So that's what's happening.
These, these, uh, some of thesemarkerless single camera thing?
Yeah.
It, it, um, it measures depthonly.
If the cell phone has a body ofknowledge in it, in other words,
it can't look at the firstbaseball pitcher or a first
fisherman or first personballing or whatever, and know
what, but if, if it has adatabase of knowing what a, a
(45:10):
baseball pitcher looks like,then it could look at a new
baseball pitcher and figure outthe three dimensional angles.
Uh, that, that, that's theartificial intelligence.
It's called a neural network or,or deep learning.
And that's what's.
Some of the technology companiesare doing, and Mike, I'm really
pretty impressed.
I, I've been trying to validate,uh, the three dimensional, the
(45:30):
multi-camera and the singlecamera ones and even the single
camera ones are, are workingpretty good.
Mike (45:36):
Right.
Right.
Especially if you ask the rightquestions and you know, the
limitations.
Right.
And I, I think that's, I thinkthat's awesome.
So, uh, exciting stuff for sure.
Um, second question.
What's one thing you've recentlychanged your mind about
professionally?
Not the Mets.
That the, they don't count that,that more professionally.
Glenn (45:53):
Um, you know, uh, recently, uh, we, we talk about
a lot about, uh, strengtheningthe shoulder, the, the
flexibility and the strength ofthe shoulder muscles to get our
basal pitchers ready because theshoulder and elbow essentially
mechanically are related andconnected.
But recently I'm thinking, Ithink we need more emphasis.
(46:13):
I think we need more focus alsoon the forearm muscles.
The flexor pronator, mass.
The, the, the, the fingerflexors and the, uh, forearm
wrist flexors.
I, I think, uh, not for thewrist point of view, but I, I
think, uh, for the elbow pointof view, I think we could put
more emphasis on having thosemuscles, uh, strengthen.
Mike (46:36):
Yeah.
I love that.
That's great.
And we've, we've, we've evolvedthat thought as well over the
last, like, probably five to 10years too.
So it looks like we got anotherepisode to talk about in the
future, is how that works out.
But, um, what's your favoritepiece of advice that you give,
uh, early career professionals?
You have a lot of fellows,orthopedic surgeons, and rehab
professionals that you see.
What, what, what's your bestpiece of advice that you like to
(46:57):
give new people?
Glenn (46:58):
Uh, I'd say two things.
One, one, be confident inyourself, but don't be cocky.
Okay?
And, and, um, And that speaksfor itself.
I mean, uh, be confidentyourself, but don't be a jerk
about it.
And the second one is basicallybe a, a team player.
And, uh, what I mean by that iswhen the young guy starting,
whether for a major league teamor in a clinic or in a research
(47:20):
lab, uh, listen to other people,you get a lot to learn.
I, I have a lot to learn.
Uh, and, um, and, uh, you know,we don't do it in politics or
whatever, but in, in science, weshould do it.
Listen to other people withother views.
And learn from other views and,and not be stuck in our
thoughts.
And really, um, I think that'show science works together,
especially the scientists andthe clinician working together.
(47:43):
We, we see things the samethings from different
perspectives and, uh, I thinkreally listen to each other and
work together.
Mike (47:50):
I think that's great too.
And I, I bet you that'ssomething you take for granted
too, because you've worked insuch a dynamic environment for
so long that that's just normalfor you.
Right?
That's, that's something thatyou're used to.
Glenn (48:00):
I, I wanna say I also saw that from Dr.
Andrews over the years.
He was always famous and greatfrom the beginning, but he was
never so cocky that he didn'tthink he could, couldn't learn
from other people, and helistened.
And I, I listened still to otherpeople and try to work as a
group.
Yeah.
Mike (48:17):
That's great.
Awesome.
Uh, what's coming up next foryou?
Glenn (48:21):
I got, I got a couple things coming up.
First of all, in, um, we'rerecording this right now in May,
but in June I'm gonna go to theMLB combine and Major League
Baseball started this combine acouple years ago, like the other
sports do.
And it's really exciting and I'minvolved, uh, with Major League
Baseball to try to help see howwe're testing the athletes.
The other thing is, this summerI'm going to Korea, I'm going
(48:43):
to, um, Give a, we're going on afamily vacation, but we're also,
I'm giving a couple of speechesat, uh, two different Korean
orthopedic society meetings, andI'm really excited about that.
I've been to Korea and Japanbefore, but uh, baseball is big
in America, but in Korea andJapan, uh, uh, I'm a rockstar
there.
They, they love our stuff and,uh, and uh, they're really
(49:06):
excited about all science andbaseball and, um, yeah.
So those are the things comingup now.
Yeah.
Mike (49:13):
That's fun.
And you're a rockstar here too,
Glenn (49:15):
Okay.
Thank.
Thank you, Mike.
Mike (49:16):
uh, so, uh, I, there's a lot of things.
I'm gonna put some links in theshow note.
I'm gonna put link to the, uh,American Baseball Biomechanic
Society.
Obviously asm, I, the, uh, ASMIInjuries in Baseball course is,
is one of the highlights of myyear of the course every year in
late January.
I, I, I know that's great.
Um, but where else can we learnabout you, Glen?
(49:37):
I.
Think you've, you've startedsomething new recently that it
would probably be worth peoplelearning about, but where else
can people find more about you?
Glenn (49:45):
And this is, this is an example of learning from other
people.
I learned this from you andKevin Wil at our as m i Baseball
course last January.
You and Kevin, eachindependently said Glenn.
Glenn, you gotta, besides givingthese presentations in this
conference, you gotta get onInstagram and other things like
that.
And really, Uh, that's totallytrue.
So, um, I'm on Instagram now.
(50:06):
I'm having so much fun doing it,Mike, and what I'm doing is I'm
breaking down my years and yearsof studies into 92nd blips.
Okay.
And, uh, on Instagram, I'm thebiomechanical man, uh, the
underlying, biomechanicalunderlying man.
And I'm posting again, you know,what's the difference of some of
these things we're talking aboutthrowing in full effort or, or,
(50:27):
uh, fast balls versus curveballs.
And, uh, I, I think the thing isAsmi and myself, I've done a
wonderful job of reaching sportsmedicine clinicians who read our
articles or comp to our courses,but we have not done as good a
job yet at reaching the millionsof people, uh, whether moms and
dads or the physical therapistsat this clinic here or there, or
(50:49):
you know, the type of peoplelistening to your podcast.
And so with Instagram, thebiomechanical man, I'm trying to
do this and having a good time.
Mike (50:57):
That's awesome.
And when Kevin and I first saidthat to you, right?
I, we meant to share yourresearch and your education.
We didn't mean start a TikTokand explore new dance routines
and all those things, but you'redoing, you're doing a great job.
But, uh, no, I, I, to me it'sthe power of social media.
Right, you're, um, it's you,your account's amazing because
it's authentic.
(51:17):
It's you, it's your personality,it's your humor, which like, it,
I, I think that's what makes itawesome and that's what makes
social media so special is thatyou get to put yourself out
there and, and share and, andyou're doing a great job.
So it's awesome to see that.
You gotta follow Glen and Asm I,SMI is also now in the game,
which is probably you, butthat's fine.
Um, uh, also in the game onInstagram, so, so definitely
(51:39):
check them out.
Um, and follow some of thoselinks in the show notes to learn
more about Dr.
Fleisig and some of the thingsyou can see, uh, from him in the
future.
But again, thank you so much,Glen.
Uh, I can't thank you enough forbeing on the show again today,
taking out time and your day todo this.
Uh, that was an absolute blast.
So appreciate it.
Glenn (51:56):
I always enjoy it, mate.
Always enjoy it.
On this episode of the sportsphysical therapy podcast.
I am joined by Dr.
Glenn Fleisig.
Glenn's a biomechanics anddirector of research at the
American sports medicineInstitute in Birmingham,
Alabama, with Dr.
James Andrews.
Glenn has spent his entirecareer working on baseball,
pitching biomechanics, and hasreally helped shape much of what
we know about the science ofbaseball.
(00:21):
In addition to ESMI.
Glen is the founder of theAmerican baseball, biomechanics
society and advisor to MLB USAbaseball in little league
baseball.
In this episode, we're going totalk about Glenn's research over
the last 30 plus years on tryingto help reduce pitching injury
rates in baseball.
Mike (00:49):
Hey Glen, thanks so much for joining me on the podcast
today.
How is everything going?
Glenn (00:54):
Everything's great spring's here.
Baseball season's here.
Work's gone great.
Uh, life's good.
Yeah.
Mike (01:01):
I like it in an amazing baseball season too, with the
pitch clock and shorter games.
I know, you know, we'll probablyget into a little bit of that as
we get into the podcast, but Ifeel like baseball's been a
whole lot more fun this summerfor me at least.
You know, having these two and ahalf, two hour and 45 minute
games instead of four hourendeavors, right?
Glenn (01:18):
For sure.
I mean, I, I'm enjoying it fromtwo point sides of, of the coin.
Uh, as a fan, I'm, I'm lovingit.
I'm watching a game, and I'mwatching a whole game before I
have to go to sleep.
But as a, uh, sports mess andscientist, I'm involved with
Major League Baseball as anadvisor, as a consultant, and
I'm working with them on thesepitch timer rules.
And, uh, it's really been quite,uh, quite successful I think.
Mike (01:42):
Yeah.
No, I completely agree.
But, um, I'm super excited tohave you on the show.
You and I have been talkingabout doing this for a few
months now.
Um, so it's good to finally getyou on.
Um, I, I, I don't know if peoplerealize this, but you and I have
known each other for a longtime, over 25 years now.
So, um, I think that means acouple things.
One is, um, we're both old.
I think that's part of it,maybe, perhaps, but, uh, but
(02:03):
also to be honest, I, I'velearned so much from you over
the years.
But, but I really am a proudmember of the asmi family.
I'm really proud to call you oneof my mentors.
Uh, you were part of thefellowship program I did back in
the day.
Uh, but more importantly, you'rea great friend.
So, uh, I'm really excited ifthere's this episode, I know you
and I are gonna have a greatconversation because we have
these conversations and just forthe first time, we're gonna hit
(02:26):
record and share it with otherpeople, right.
Glenn (02:28):
For sure, for sure.
You know, you say things likethat and, and I am proud of
mentoring people like you.
I'm very proud of you, Mike, bythe way.
And, um, But, uh, uh, the, thecomment that really gets me best
is when people say, uh, you're agood friend.
Cuz I, I, I think personalquality's really important and,
um, I, I take that compliment.
Well, yeah.
Mike (02:47):
That's awesome.
That's awesome.
You know, I do share oftentimes,um, how we first met, which was,
um, me calling you cause Ithought this was funny.
A lot of people ask me, Hey,how'd you get into sports?
How'd you get into baseball?
How'd you get into pro sports?
And I always talk about how I,you know, I, you know, back in
the nineties, you.
You had to search out.
I'm like, so who are the bestpeople in baseball, sports,
(03:07):
medicine?
And obviously I found you in theAmerican Sports Medicine
Institute and um, I'll neverforget the day.
Um, I literally called you likeon a phone.
Like I had a landline.
You had a land.
This is before the internet,before cell phones.
And I remember, I'm like thesecond ring you just answered
like a s m i.
This is Glen.
And that's, you still answer thephone that way 25 years later
(03:27):
when I call.
It's amazing.
Um, but you picked up the phone,Glen, it was amazing.
Glenn (03:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I, I don't know if I remem, Idon't remember you've told me
this story.
I don't remember that cause Igot so many calls and stuff, but
Yeah.
Uh, I enjoyed, um, you reachingout to me and, uh, I remember
you being a, a, a fellow, or Idon't remember what it is
called, under Kevin Wilk.
And also you did research herein the lab.
I remember we did some.
Early research on, uh, emg themuscle activity during, uh, that
(03:55):
are used in exercises forbaseball pitchers and yeah, it
is.
I, I remember this journey.
Well, I'm glad it's worked outwell.
Yeah.
Mike (04:01):
Yeah, it was fun.
Some running and cutting stuffwith Gene and Steve and Nigel
and I mean, tho those were thedays.
That was, that was a fun time.
But, um, but yeah, I mean, youknow, moral of the story again
is, you know, I, I sought outthe best and I reached out and I
was just fortunate enough tofind somebody like yourself that
actually cared about givingback.
And actually, you're so open, sopatient with me, so, you know.
(04:23):
Yeah.
Come.
Come to Alabama, come doprojects with us.
Um, it was, it was really, uh,refreshing.
So, um, you know, I try to alsodo that and give back just the
way that you guys did that forme.
So thank you so much for allthat.
Glenn (04:35):
I, I wanna say on that, um, I also learned from my
mentors, uh, Dr.
Andrews and Dr.
Chuck Diman.
And I, I learned, well, maybe itwas my personality anyway, but I
learned from them, they'realways team players and
listening to other people andnever too big to listen to other
people and always willing towork with others and, and help
younger people.
So I think I give credit to someof my mentors.
Mike (04:58):
That's great.
Yeah.
We all get better together,right?
I think that's a great way ofsaying that.
So, um, well let, let's talkabout you, right?
Not about me, but let's talkabout you.
Um, you've spent your, yourentire professional life almost
studying baseball, right?
And, um, really a strict niche.
And don't get me wrong, you'vedone so many other things to so
many other sports and to rehaband surgery and all those other
(05:19):
things.
But baseball's always been yourthing.
Um, why don't we start withthat?
What, why don't, why don't youkind of tell the audience a
little bit, what made you wannafocus on this, you know, how'd
you get started working in thisarea?
Tell me a little bit about like,the origin and the beginning of
as m I.
I'd love to hear some of thatstory.
Glenn (05:35):
Well, I mean, the original plan was to be the
center theater for the New YorkMets, you know, um, as when I
was a kid, I loved baseball likea lot of our listeners do.
Um, and, uh, when I was at highschool and I did not make the,
uh, high school baseball team,but I made the high school math
team.
I thought maybe, maybe I need anew plan here, you know?
So, um, so I liked baseball andI just, uh, I went to a school
(05:58):
up in your neighborhood.
I went to MIT for college and,um, and did, did mechanical
engineering.
It, Mike and I just figured mylife would be, uh, doing
mechanical engineering, buildingmechanical things and just
playing and watching baseball onthe side.
But then at MIT there's a seniorthesis project and, uh, one lab
was doing welding of metal andone lab was doing, Circuitry for
(06:20):
cars.
And one lab was analyzing golfswings.
And I'm like, well, this, thislooks like fun.
And I walked in and talked tothat professor there, Dr.
Uh, Robert Mann.
And I said, um, what's this?
Can I do my senior project here?
Sure.
And I worked with this other,uh, master graduate student
doing a, a golf swing.
And uh, afterwards I told Dr.
Man, 1984, this was 1983, Isaid, uh, I want to, um, get a
(06:44):
job doing this biomechanics,this sports biomechanics, and.
It's, it's, uh, 40 years ago,but I remember this was still to
the day, Mike.
I said, Dr.
Mann, I want to do a job doingsports biomechanics.
And he, and he laughed in myface.
He said, Glen, there are no jobsdoing this, you know, and so,
uh, uh, but he said, I do know,uh, that there's a internship,
(07:04):
uh, at the Olympic, UnitedStates Olympic Training Center
in Colorado Springs, Colorado.
And so he hooked me up with aprofessor there.
And, uh, I went there and Iworked for, Uh, for 1984, I
worked under, uh, Dr.
Chuck Diman, who I've mentionedalready.
And, um, 1984 was very excitingfor the old timers who remember
the Olympics were in the UnitedStates that year in Los Angeles.
(07:25):
So it was very exciting and Iworked for Dr.
Diman and uh, and then I said, Iwant to get into baseball and do
a career like this.
He said, there's a young up andcoming doctor named Dr.
Jim Andrews, and he introducedme to Dr.
Andrews in 1980.
Four, you know, and, um, and Italked to Dr.
Andrews in 1984 and we reallyhit it off on the phone.
And he's telling me his vision.
He was still working in, uh,Georgia at the time.
(07:48):
And, uh, anyway, um, great.
I thought I had something goinghere and, and at the end he
said, okay, but I'm not ready tostart my institute, he said.
So it was kind of a way.
So I hung up and went on with mylife.
Uh, three years later, threeyears later, I'm visiting my mom
and dad for Thanksgiving in NewYork.
And, uh, mom says, uh,Thanksgiving 1987 says a phone
(08:11):
call for you, Glen, up.
I'm like, who's calling me at myparents' house?
I don't live here anymore.
And, um, it is a, a guy whoworked with Dr.
Andrews and they said, we'reready.
He's still interested.
And I'm like, yeah.
And then so I rearranged my lifeand dropped everything and
started the Asm I with Dr.
Andrews and others in 1987.
I, I, I, you know, you'retalking about pre-internet.
(08:32):
Um, for when you called me, Italked to these guys in 1984 and
three years later I, maybe hekept my mom and dad's phone
number on a piece of paper.
I mean, I, I don't know.
But anyway, they found me andthe rest is history.
Started a nine as m i in 1987.
I was 25 and it was, uh, Ididn't know.
I was just, I was confident and,uh, um, and, uh, we'd done well.
(08:57):
Yeah, that's the start of asi.
Mike (08:59):
That's, that's pretty amazing.
And you know, obviously you'vedone more than, well, I mean, I,
I don't even know at this point.
How many publications do youhave?
Do you even keep track anymore?
Glenn (09:07):
I do, well first, uh, I have to give my CV sometimes to
people with all my papers andpresentations and, uh, cuz I'm
giving a conference talk orwhatever and they're like, wow.
It, my, my CV is 75 pages and soit has hundreds of presentations
and, uh, thousands ofpresentations and hundreds of
publications and.
(09:27):
Uh, I don't know.
Yeah.
A
Mike (09:29):
it's, it, it's impressive.
It's impressive.
I, I just looked you up onPubMed to see, you know, I
always like to see when peopleare coming on the podcast, like,
obviously I follow you in yourresearch, but I wanted to see
what, what you've done in thelast, you know, few months to
year, just to see what's kind oflike brewing in your head.
And again, just like, it's,it's, it's dozens, so it's,
it's, you know, so I'm like, allright, we'll stick to baseball.
(09:49):
We'll have a fun talk onbaseball cause we can talk about
so many
Glenn (09:52):
one of the, one of the, uh, hidden secrets though is uh,
uh, As m i, we've published alot of things on baseball and
other things, you know, andrunning and cutting and, and
knee surgery.
But, uh, one of the hiddensecrets is we don't have the
size of a staff of a universitywith, with 10 professors and 30
graduate students.
We're just a handful of peoplewith a dozen doctors, and, uh, I
(10:16):
I, I think it's prettyefficient.
While we do, we, we, we've beenvery productive.
Yeah.
Mike (10:20):
You call it efficient, I'll call it impressive for you
because I guess you can't dothat to yourself.
But, um, but yeah, no, I mean,super impressive.
But, but more important thanimpressive or efficient clan.
Impactful.
And that's the thing, you guysstarted something in 1987 that,
um, was so ahead of the game,which was just so different with
what you did and how youanalyzed things and the amount
(10:42):
of scientific information thatyou started putting together in
sports.
Um, it, it changed the game.
And I think it, it reallychanged a lot of people like
myself in, in like the healthallied fields to see
differently, to seemechanically, to see stresses
and the effect of the way thebody moves on torque and things
like that.
So, uh, you, you guys have had adramatic impact on that stuff.
(11:05):
So again, like I, I don't wantto keep thanking you for things
cuz this, this is becoming aweird podcast, but, but thank
you for all you've done for us.
Glenn (11:14):
Yeah, I wanna say, uh, one, one of the things we've
tried to do is to be differentthan a university where we're
not just trying to do a researchthat goes on some academic
bookshelf or some on theinternet.
Uh, and we're not just trying tobe a clinic like you have at, at
Champion Sports Medicine.
We're, we're kind of an odd birdand we, we set it up, we
designed it 35 years ago to be aresearch center.
(11:34):
But has practical use toclinicians, physicians, physical
therapists, and, and ourbaseball course that you speak
at every year.
Um, I think that that's one ofthe highlights of our, our our
year because we have ourresearch.
But again, we don't just want togo on the bookshelf.
We wanted to get in the hands ofthe people listening to this
podcast, uh, physicaltherapists, et cetera, and have
(11:56):
it be, uh, practical andscientific.
Mike (11:59):
Yeah.
And, and, and again, to, to justharp on that one thing, but you,
you, you answered clinicalquestions, right?
And I think that's where, wherethe impact comes from so many
times is that the, the researchyou published was conducted
because somebody had a clinicalquestion and then you guys
sought to, to, to figure it out.
Um, And, and that is, that'ssuch a cool way of, of doing it.
(12:21):
So, um, well, let, let's talkabout that a little bit.
So, o over your career, you've,I don't know, you've focused on
a lot of things, but I, I thinkit's safe to say that you've
placed a very large focus onunderstanding the science of
baseball, but in a way so thatway we can, we can hopefully
reduce injury rates.
It seems to be.
Almost like an underlying themein everything you've done in
(12:41):
your career.
So, um, let's start off withthat, which it could be a six
hour dissertation that we'reabout to talk about here, but
that's the big question.
You know, it's been 30 plusyears.
Can you summarize your researchon what are the biggest risks,
risk factors, what have youlooked at?
What have you identified?
It's a big question.
I apologize for that, but it's agood question and you're the guy
(13:04):
to answer it.
Glenn (13:05):
Yeah.
Um, okay.
So, uh, baseball pitchinginjuries, again, the reason we
it's so well set up for us tostudy is that it's, uh,
repetition injuries and it'sfrom essentially self-inflicted.
Uh, you know, it'd be nice toprevent all the ACL injuries in
football, but you, you know, theadvice would be watch out for
that big guy about to tackleyou, you know, but the baseball
(13:26):
pitchers essentially are, areinjured often too often, and
also it's, uh, from repetitionof the same mechanics again, and
as a biomechanist.
That's why I love studying itbecause we could look at the
mechanics, uh, uh, pitching evenother things like football,
quarterback or, or, or tennis,uh, ground strokes.
(13:47):
They're not totally repeatablecause you're always in a
slightly different position.
But golf swings and baseballpitches are really well suited
for biomechanics.
Um, as far as the, uh, answer toyour question about the factors,
uh, related to baseball pitchinginjuries, There are a few
buckets.
One is pitching biomechanics orpitching mechanics.
(14:09):
Uh, the other one is, uh, howoften you throw and how much you
rest and strength andconditioning.
I think those are, um, you know,how much do you prepare your
body?
Uh, how much do you do and howwell do you do it, essentially?
Okay.
And so if you look at that,strength and conditioning is,
uh, super important for gettingthe body right, and I've seen
you and.
(14:29):
Uh, uh, Kevin and everyone, uh,over the years change how you do
things evolve, which is good.
We, we wanna train baseballpitchers, not football linemen
who are playing baseball in theoff season.
I mean, um, so that's superimportant.
The mechanics and the pitchtypes and the pitch amounts are
important.
We thought curve balls might bethe most important thing for the
(14:51):
kids, but turns out it's not.
The most important thing for theamateur pitchers is amount of
pitching and, uh, Uh, injuriesand Tommy John's surgeries are
up in high school more thanever.
But the thing that's changed,you know, kids have always
thrown curve balls or kids.
Some kids have always had goodmechanics and some had bad
mechanics.
But when I was a kid, you playedbaseball in the spring and then
(15:12):
you play football in the fall orother sports.
But now kids specialize at, atone age, and this is the single
biggest issue, problem,whatever, Mike, for the amateur
baseball player, which is uh,uh, single sports
specialization.
And year round pitching thebody, uh, needs periodization,
whether periodization during theweek or periodization during a
(15:35):
year.
And the playing year round isthe biggest problem from the
pros.
It's a, it is the opposite.
The pros, uh, have professional,uh, people looking after them.
They don't pitch five days aweek on two travel teams or
whatever.
So the pros, uh, the pro teamsare very much, uh, have a handle
(15:55):
on, on work volume.
Some people might say they'reeven Uh, babying them and, you
know, and, and limiting theirwork volume.
But, but they have a handle onit.
They're trying to, uh, balancethe work volume for the pros.
I think the big thing is, uh,mechanics, which is big on both
ends and, uh, and intensity.
Okay.
And, um, and really this lovefor the radar gun, whether it is
(16:18):
high school or a kid in LatinAmerica or the pros, uh, it's
kind of flip-flop Mike.
And, um, and people think the.
The object to get drafted or, orrecruited to a college or to get
caught to the pros is whoeverhas the highest score on the
radar gun.
It used to be whoever had thelowest era A or whatever, but,
um, so the pitchers are, areaiming to max out their velocity
(16:44):
as much as possible, as high aspossible.
And, you know, strength andconditioning and proper
mechanics, part of it'sbackfiring.
We're giving people the properstrength and conditioning.
And the proper biomechanicsenabling their body to get this
maximum velocity.
But they're not using it, right?
They're not tapping it sometimesand backing off sometimes that
(17:04):
is, that's really their, that'sgonna be the, um, secret to
duration and success.
Longevity and, and, andprofessional baseball.
Uh, knowing when to go a hundredpercent and went to back off a
little, but people are justgoing max effort and through
mechanics and, uh, conditioning.
We're able to have the baseballpitchers, uh, get maximum
(17:27):
velocity by, uh, proper timingof their body, proper strength
and power of their muscles.
And the, and the losers in allthis are their ligaments and
tendons, holding the jointstogether because all the
strength and conditioning, allthe mechanics, uh, they are
optimizing what the muscles do,but the ligaments and tendons,
(17:47):
um, are maxed out.
And, and, and that's, that's a30 year summary.
In, uh, five minutes, I guess.
Mike (17:55):
I, I think that's, that's fantastic.
And let, let, let's, let's hiteach one a little bit more in
detail.
Cause I think people really liketo hear this though, but pitch
types.
I think, um, there's been anevolution with pitch types.
I think in the eighties it wasthat the split finger was evil.
The nineties was the curve ballwas evil.
Right.
Um, I, and I think you, youreally started to show that
really that, uh, stress justcomes down to velocity almost.
(18:19):
And when, when you have a changeup or even a curve ball that
maybe at a, a little bit lessarm speed, for example, um,
that's probably more indicativeto stress than some of the, the
differences in pitch types.
Is that a pretty good summary?
Glenn (18:33):
Well, again, we have kids and we have adults, uh, pros or
Mike (18:36):
Good point.
Right.
Glenn (18:37):
we've done, uh, us our lab and other labs have done
numerous biomechanic studies andlet's just talk about what
biomechanic studies are.
Biomechanic studies are, arepitchers, Uh, we put these
reflective dots all up and downtheir body, and we have these
cameras that quantify theirthree-dimensional motion, and
then we measure their motionsand we calculate their forces as
well.
So that's biomechanics in a 30seconds.
(19:00):
But we've done biomechanicstudies, uh, where we measure
what are the forces on the elbowand shoulder during all these
different pitch types.
Um, and what we found, we didstudies for youth, we did
studies for high school and forpros, and what we consistently
find, Is that the fastballcurve, ball and slider are all
(19:21):
high stress pitches on the elbowand shoulder.
The change up consistently showsless stress on the elbow and
shoulder, but the, the point isthe curve ball does not show
more or less on the fast ball.
The curve ball, fast, fastball,and slider are all in this
stress bucket.
All right, and now what we alsofind is picture A and picture B.
(19:44):
If pitcher A has good mechanics,he's pitching all these things
with a certain amount of stress.
Pitcher B, who has the samevelocity, but stinky mechanics,
that's a technical term, stinkymechanic.
He, um, he could have the samevelocity, but he's applying a
lot more force on his elbow andshoulder.
So your mechanics are moreimportant than you pitch type.
(20:07):
And the amount you pitch is moreimportant than you pitch type.
And then the last thing on thismic, uh, I, moving to the next
topic, is the, uh, intensity.
We've done studies looking at,uh, let's say fastballs thrown
at different intensities.
We, we've, uh, we have a, anumber of pitchers who've thrown
fastballs and just by dumb lockat their fastballs ranged about,
(20:28):
let's say five miles per hour.
They were trying to throw, throwfull effort, but they didn't
always.
Anyway, what we found out is,uh, once again, The stress on a
elbow and shoulder for pitcher Aversus pitcher B is really
dictated by if he has goodmechanics or bad mechanics.
But within a pitcher, uh, hisfaster throws are always more
(20:52):
stressful always than his fastballs that are a few miles per
hour slower.
So if you're trying to avoidinjury, you wanna avoid the
accumulation of microtrauma inyour elbow or shoulder, in your,
in your UCL or EL elsewhere.
And so you don't wanna keepdoing max effort pitches that
(21:12):
are doing the maximum attentionon the ligaments and tendons.
You need to mix in some, uh,lower intensity pitches.
Mike (21:21):
I, I think that's a great way of saying it too.
And you've, you, you've kind ofalluded to a couple things here
when you're talking about in ourworld, in the health and fitness
world, where we talk aboutworkload and capacity quite a
bit, and you started this off bytalking about strength and
conditioning on how we've, we'vereally increased our capacity as
much as we can.
Then we talked about overuseand, and thrown with high
velocity.
All year round.
(21:41):
You talked about that workload.
Um, you know, to me, I, I'vealways taken your biomechanical
data that we've, we've learnedover the years and just used it
for, for exactly what you said,each person's different, right.
If, if you or I throw a 95 mileper hour fastball, that's gonna
be a lot stressful to ourbodies, then it is that six
foot, 6, 250 pound guy that'sreally strong, really powerful,
(22:03):
and has much better mechanicsthan you and I.
Right?
So it's not that 95.
Is is the challenge.
It's just that it, it's justthat pitchers are almost, uh,
maximizing everything.
They're maximizing theirstrength, their power, their
mobility.
They're maximizing theirmechanics, and they're putting
themselves at the end of theirphysiological limits more often.
(22:24):
And then, They train that wayall freaking winter now.
Right.
And that's, I think that's thepart that blows my mind is that
they're doing that all winternow and that that's where we're
seeing so much it Does that,does that make sense to you from
a biomechanical perspective?
Is that in line with yourthoughts?
Glenn (22:40):
yeah, a hundred percent.
You know, uh, when you'retalking there, I, I think that
the.
The expression, they're, they'reredlining.
They're, they're, they'repushing themselves to the red
line.
And I thought, if I drive mycar, if you drive your car and
you had your foot floored thegas pedal constantly, and the,
uh, odometer is, uh, is, uh, isit called the odometer?
What?
(23:00):
Teter is all the way, maxed outthe whole time.
Uh, yeah.
Your engine's gonna wear out.
And, and, and same.
So you can't drive maxed out allthe time.
And, and likewise.
Your arms are the same way.
Uh, it's different because we'realive and we, um, and, and we,
we heal.
But, uh, but it is the sameanalogy that, uh, you can't be
(23:23):
max effort every pitch and then12 months a year.
It, it, it's that this is whypeople are breaking down.
Mike (23:30):
Yeah.
And, and you know, to me too, Ithink it's important to realize
this, when, when we develop ourinterval throwing programs and
our progressions that we do, we,we understand a little bit of
the data about it.
Some of the newer rehabclinicians are very linear
thinking and very, like thinkingeverything's perfect.
Um, it, if you're throwing, ifyou throw a nine five mile per
hour fastball and you are in,you're throwing program and
(23:51):
you're throwing 80, 85 mile perhours, that is.
That is a significant reductionin stress on your ligaments,
your capsule, your tendons, allthose things that it, it's, I
don't wanna say it's not veryimpactful, but people don't
understand that if you throw 85miles miles per hour, that is
significantly less stressful onyour body.
(24:12):
You could do that all day andnot get injured.
It's it.
It's when you go max effort thatpeople don't understand.
So, you know, we talk aboutthis, you and I, I think we've
had this conversation.
I know Kevin and I shared this,but the pictures that can sit
91, 2, 3, 4, but then reach backand throw 98 when they're, you
know, when they're, you know,three, two count, or, you know,
bases loaded.
(24:33):
Uh, those pictures tend to be somuch more durable than the one
that their mean velocity is 97and their max velocity is 97.5.
Right.
Have you looked at that at all?
Glenn (24:42):
A hundred percent, no.
Uh, I, uh, some of the MLB teamshave talked to me about this and
they have data analytics peoplelooking at it, but I, I, I, this
is what I've proposed.
I haven't looked at it.
Um, it's not just maximumeffort.
I, I would look at a standarddeviation or, or the range of
your fastball velocities as muchas what your top festival
(25:03):
velocity is and, and the guyswith the bigger range or
standard aviation, I wouldsuspect, I haven't looked at it,
I would suspect they're moredurable.
For this very reason, you know,you're talking about, um, the
ligaments and tendons and, uh,they're, they're really elast,
aplastic, uh, uh, tissue andwhich is like a rubber band
(25:23):
basically.
And if you had a rubber band andyou were stretching it at max
effort a hundred times, um,that's a lot more stress on the
rubber band than's stressing itat half effort, fif, uh, 200
times.
Uh, you could do it all day.
You could stress a rubber bandat half effort all day.
And just like you said, the, thepitcher.
At reduced effort, his ligamentsand antennas could take that,
(25:45):
and I can't say all day, but alot with, with very little
accumulate damage from reducedeffort throws.
Mike (25:52):
Yeah.
And, and I'm seeing, uh, kind ofa flip here too with, with a lot
of the coaches, most of theskill development coaches, but
also some of the younger, youknow, rehab and, and performance
people.
You know, the concept that aligament like the Tommy John
ligament, your ucl for example,that it needs stress to get more
resilient.
Um, it, it's, it's taking themodel for muscle mass
(26:13):
development where you have tobreak down the muscle to build
it back up more and applying itto a, a ligament, it doesn't
work that way.
Right, right.
So now I'm just a rehab guy, butcan the biomechanics guy explain
that?
Glenn (26:25):
You totally right.
You're, you're a medical guyand, uh, the vascularity and the
healing of the ligaments andtendons is a different model
than the muscles.
It is poor vascularity comparedto the muscles, and it doesn't
work on that.
Uh, That hill model, uh,approach where you, uh, have
damage to the muscle and then itheals and that's how the muscle,
(26:47):
uh, adapts and becomes stronger.
The ligaments and tendons, Idon't see it that way.
I see it that they are gettingdamage and they, uh, uh, uh, uh,
ligament tendon tear is whenyou've had damage adding up
quicker than you've allowed timefor it to heal because it heals
slower than muscle.
Mike (27:05):
That, that, that's perfect.
And, and we, we see a lot ofpeople that are trying to take
that model and say, well, that'swhy we want to stress them so
aggressively all winter is cuzwe wanna build up capacity to
that ligament.
And what it's actually doing isbackfiring.
It's doing the exact opposite.
Um.
One of the best studies I thinkthat came out, you know, no
offense to all your amazingresearch, but was a charmer's
(27:26):
study with the ultrasound of theligament over the course of a
season, and then after thesubsequent off season that
showed that over the course of aseason, your ligament got loose,
it got swollen.
Over the course of the winter,it actually got tighter and less
swollen.
It healed.
It healed up a little bit fromthat acute trauma.
And if we don't do that, I'mreally scared that you're just
gonna have this ligament gettinglooser and looser and looser and
(27:48):
then just having this microdamage.
And I, I think that is probablysingle-handedly the most, uh,
important thing that we need tochange right now is that people
need to understand that addingstress to a ligament isn't, uh,
it, it's not the same as amuzzle.
I, I don't know how else to sayit, but I think that's huge
right now.
Glenn (28:06):
I, I completely agree.
Completely agree.
Mike (28:08):
Yeah.
Love it.
Oh, let, let, let's talk TommyJohn just for a second, because
I do know that's huge right now.
Tommy John injuries are throughthe roof.
You know, we always joke, youknow, you and I, we speak at a
lot of baseball conferences,right?
And I usually get up there inone of my first intros if it's a
new crowd, right?
Um, I'll say like, you know,this has been an amazing
conference.
Uh, we've been doing this fordecades and injuries seem to get
(28:29):
be getting worse, so I don'tknow what we're doing wrong.
Right.
But let, let's talk UCL in, uh,specifically, just because
again, they're going through theroof.
I think we know that it's thiscombination of velocity and it's
this combination of, uh,workload.
Management where, uh, people arejust doing too much.
But what I want to hear from youis what specifically
(28:50):
mechanically are, are we doingto put extra stress on the
ligament?
Are there certain thingsmechanically that we should work
towards improving that we're,we're almost putting too much
stress on the ligament withcertain types of mechanics.
Glenn (29:05):
Yeah, good question.
So proper mechanics, we've donea lot of studies on this and,
uh, it's kind of a double-edgedsword.
Sometimes, uh, we have peopleoptimize or fix their mechanics
and they get more ball velocity,but it, it is putting a high
stress on your whole body.
Uh, it's a tough question toanswer, Mike.
I could say some of the majorflaws I could explain real
(29:27):
quickly some of the major flaws.
Or a, a late arm, in otherwords, at foot contact, uh, when
the, when the front footcontacts, the throwing hand
should be, uh, raised above theelbow.
Shouldn't be vertically abovethe elbow, but it should be on
their way up.
And, uh, um, a lot, somepitchers who are late for
whatever reason, where theirwrist is still below their elbow
(29:49):
at foot contact, first foottouch, um, they, their arms
playing catch up, and that'sgonna be extra loader on their
elbow and their shoulder.
To try to basically catch up andthrow.
Uh, another thing we see,especially in the kids, is not
using their trunk.
Uh, little kids, not, not evenlittle high school, let's say
pre-pubescent especially, uh,they don't have a core trunk
(30:13):
strength, so they essentiallyrotate their hips or pelvis at
the same time as their uppertrunk.
They just rotated his one unitversus the, uh, skilled adult
pitcher rotates his pelvis belowhis shoulders, keeping his
shoulders.
Uh, in line with, uh, thethrowing target and then have,
then the, the trunk, uh,contributes energy as well.
(30:34):
Um, those are a couple of thethings, and then also the front
knee.
Um, when gonna pitch it pitchesproperly.
The more, more important thanstride length.
Mike is, uh, foot position, andI want the foot a little to the
closed side.
So for right-handed picture alittle.
A little to the, the third baseside and, and point it a little
inward as well because that putsthe foot in a strong position to
(30:56):
land, kind of catch your weight.
And then if the pitcher isstrong enough and has good
mechanics, they will actually,their knee will bend a little
when they catch your weight, butthen they extend their knee or
straighten their knee a little,passing the energy up their lead
hip and up their body.
So those are some of the keymechanics that if you don't do
that, you end up essentiallyjust throwing with your arm.
Mike (31:17):
I, I think that's a great way of saying it too.
Uh, especially with the youth,right?
Just you, you've studied thatspecifically.
You can look up those articles,but you know, to, to see that.
I think that's probably one ofthe bigger things we do with our
youth in the gym.
Is we teach them how todisassociate.
We teach them how to separate,um, not just, Hey, work on this
mobility.
It's actually more learning howto like, hey, keep your
(31:39):
shoulders back and fire yourhips forward, for example.
Right?
There's, there's like a motorcontrol patterning that they
need to develop to be able to dothat.
Um, so it, it, you know, it'sreally interesting that.
To see that in the youth modelwhen we get to the adults, it's
kind of funny.
I feel like we're, we're pushingthe envelope as a profession to
increase velocity and almosteverything we do to increase
(31:59):
velocity seems to also increasestress, right?
So if you're trying to bringyour, your elbow inside 90, for
example, or you're trying to bea little bit late, almost like
that inverted w um, you, youknow, we all get to ball release
at the same time.
Right.
So if you have more time fromfoot plant to ball release and
you have more angles to getthrough, you'll have more
angular velocity.
(32:20):
And that's how we try to explainit to the kids about, like these
things like, you know, inside 90where we're bringing the ball by
the air, it just makes it seemlike everything we're doing to
just get a half tick of a, of amile per hour or a mile per hour
or anything.
It could be, um, we'reincreasing stress and then you
again, you do it over and overagain.
That workload capacity equationthat seems to be.
(32:41):
You know, some of the problemswe're seeing is that we're
trying to eek out everything.
So I, I know we're, we're kindof, we're saying the same thing
over and over again, buthopefully that'll help, uh,
deliver the message, right,Glen?
Glenn (32:50):
I, I, I do, I do wanna add, uh, you, you did point out
one more flaw that's, that'skind of in vogue these days,
which is the short arm for thepitcher, meaning, uh, they're
bringing the ball there, thethrowing hand closer to the ear,
uh, and flexing their elbowmore.
And our studies have shown thatthat is not optimal, that the
elbow should be flexed about 90degrees.
Not more than 90 degrees whereyou hold it.
(33:12):
And so even though that's beingtaught a lot, I biomechanically
it's not as good.
Mike (33:18):
And, and so shortsighted to me.
So what's the benefit of that?
So, okay, you increase angularvelocity of elbow extension by a
little bit.
I mean, that is so low on mylist of important things to
develop in a baseball pitcher,right?
Is, you know, uh, is elbowextension angular velocity?
It just seems
Glenn (33:37):
not even sure.
I'm not even sure it does that.
Uh, there there are a coupleanecdote.
There are a couple anecdotalguys in Major League Baseball
who have done well and theneveryone's kind of jumped on the
bandwagon.
But I think it's a mistake.
I've tested, I've testedthousands of pitchers, hundreds
of pro pitchers, Cy Young Awardwinners, and, and you, and
they've bend their elbow 90degrees.
The successful ones, not more.
Mike (33:58):
That's exactly right.
You know, and, and I hate to sayit, I have to admit, I do work
with a couple of those guys, soI know who you're talking about.
And, and yes, they weresuccessful, got popular people
looked at it.
Uh, to me I almost think it'smore about, uh, hiding the ball
longer than it is anything else.
I think that's why they weresuccessful from it.
Um, but that was just because itwas helpful for them to hide the
(34:20):
ball.
Right.
That doesn't mean it'll behelpful for you to hide the
ball.
So, you know, again, it's, it'severybody has to develop their
own thing.
The worst thing we couldpossibly do for pitching
development right now isInstagram.
Right.
Um, and it's just, you know, ifyou're trying to do something
that worked on somebody else,it's probably not gonna be
optimal for you.
Right.
I'm guilty of that with my golfswing.
Right.
So it's the same thing.
Glenn (34:40):
Yeah.
Again, uh, on the internet thereare a lot of, uh, pro, uh,
experts.
I'm doing my quote.
You can see with the fingerswho, uh, who say, here's how,
here's how so-and-so pitches,and they show, uh, Uh,
photograph a photograph of oneparticular major league pitcher
and say, therefore do this.
And the photograph sometimes isnot taken at the exact time.
They said like, here's picture Aand picture B in comparison, but
(35:02):
they're not taking at the exactsame time.
It's just, it's not fullscientific data that we, we
have.
It's just a blip and ananecdotal observation.
Mike (35:11):
Right, right.
It's tough to draw a conclusionfrom that.
I agree.
So, um, well, you know, oneother thing I wanted to touch
upon in this podcast before weget going is, um, the future.
Um, more and more teams, bothpro and college.
They're, they're building labs.
They're hiring, hiringbiomechanists.
So, Remember, go back to yourprofessor from 1984 that laughed
at you.
Okay.
(35:31):
It, it took 40 years, but we gotit.
We're hiring Biomechanists nowwithin pro baseball.
It's a thing now.
Uh, but we're pushing thatenvelope with that biomechanical
data.
Um, the stadiums have built inbiomechanical.
Cameras everywhere.
It's, it's, it's amazing thetech and baseball.
Uh, can you share with us, Iknow you're involved at MLB at a
higher level with, with stuff,but what, what are some of the
(35:52):
exciting things coming in thefuture for, for biomechanics,
maybe even tech and baseball,but what's really exciting you
right now,
Glenn (35:58):
All right, Mike.
Uh, I, I saw this coming five or10 years ago.
I have this, when I gave one ofthese speeches here, they said,
what do I think of in thefuture?
I said this like 12 years ago,and I said, I think what's gonna
come is a markerless motioncapture.
Uh, that's what I'm excitedabout.
And, and it has come.
And so one day, Dr.
Andrews and I are noticing hereat a S M I, many years ago, five
(36:22):
or 10 years, five years ago, Um,that, uh, less and less teams
are sending pictures to us herein Birmingham.
And, uh, and, uh, I'm thinkingwhat, so we could either stick
our head into the mud, I figuredat this point, and try to be
stubborn and stay where we areor see what's happening.
And I'm so excited now and gladI chose this to, um, to embrace
(36:43):
that we're not the only show intown that biomechanics is coming
throughout baseball.
The markerless motion capturethat it just alluded to is a big
reason.
And so what it is, is, like Ijust said earlier, um,
biomechanics is typically youput these reflective markers up
and down your body just, justlike they do when the video
games or, uh, or special effectsfor movies.
(37:04):
And, and then you, you wearspecial clothes and you have,
uh, reflective markers, specialcameras, computers.
But the technology now, themarkerless motion capture, there
are a few companies that aredoing, uh, multiple camera or
single camera.
I'll touch on this in a second,but essentially, They are
allowing people to do it whohave less biomechanics
(37:27):
expertise.
Plus it's more versatile.
You could actually get in-gamedata cuz very few of the pros
are wearing little silver dotsup and down their body, you
know.
So, uh, we saw this coming and,uh, so one thing we did, uh, we
started what's called theAmerican Baseball Biomechanic
Society.
We started this in 2020.
At the beginning of 2020, we hadno idea a pandemic was about to
(37:50):
start.
But we started a society calledthe, uh, uh, American Baseball
Mechanic Society.
Anyone listening here can join,uh, my treat.
I'll pay for your membershipbecause it's free.
Okay?
And, uh, and, uh, you don't haveto be a biomechanist to join it.
And so this society is tryingto, uh, standardize and share
(38:10):
the knowledge, uh, of what'shappening in baseball
biomechanics.
In addition, the markerlessmotion capture systems has
enabled teams to have their ownequipment.
And hire biomechanist.
Again, with the abbs, with thesociety, we're trying to, um,
standardize or coordinate athing.
So, um, this is what I'm reallyexcited about, that
(38:31):
Biomechanists, uh, is aprofession now baseball
biomechanist, like you said, myprofessor wouldn't laugh at me.
Now, uh, there are jobs doingthis and I'm very excited that
through this A, B B S, we'retrying to, um, uh, share
knowledge and, uh, really helpeverybody.
Mike (38:48):
That's great.
That's awesome.
And it, and it's a great societythat you guys started.
Um, I'm a member.
You should join too.
Um, I think that's, uh, animportant thing to do.
So, um, yeah, the future'sexciting.
Um, all right, last question.
And it goes back to thebeginning, right?
We're gonna come full circle,just like a Seinfeld episode,
but.
Pitch clock, what do we got?
Is it good?
Is it is?
(39:08):
Is it gonna harm people?
What do you think?
Is there gonna be an injury riskon the pitch clock?
Because the satisfaction of thegames, from the perspective and
from the players, everybodyloves it.
But is there a concern?
Is this, you know, fatigue unitthat we should be looking at
with people pitching so rapidly?
Are you worried about it in.
Glenn (39:24):
well, you know, in 1968 they lowered the mound and they
gave it a try and, and thingsworked out well, you know, and,
uh, and so, but we we're live ina different time.
Now, you don't just kind of say,Hey, let's give it a try.
So Major League baseball hassystematically got to this
place.
They've asked myself and otherscientists to try to study some
of these things.
There've been some studies on,uh, whether, uh, it, whether
(39:49):
timing affects pitchers.
Uh, plus then it, major leaguebaseball, professional baseball
starts slowly and does it inminor league baseball before
major league baseball.
So it's not just willy-nilly.
It's um, It's systematicallygone about it in minor leagues.
I don't have the data in frontof me, but I, my understanding
is it really did not have aneffect on the injury rates to
(40:13):
minor league pitchers.
If it did, they'd back offbefore we put it in pro, in
major league baseball.
But in major league baseball,there's not enough data yet.
It's just been a few months and,uh, and it's not, it's been an
adjustment period.
Obviously we see it from aperformance point of view with
the, uh, umpires calling, um,Pitch, pitch time or violation
(40:33):
on batters and pitchers.
It's a learning thing.
Bottom line is I am confident,uh, that it will not have an
effect on the risk of injuries,uh, for pitchers, for, uh, and
the intangibles.
I think, um, the positionplayers and everybody, uh,
shorter games, less timestanding out there.
(40:54):
I think, uh, for the health ofeverybody, mental, physical
health, I think the shortergames are gonna be good.
Mike (41:01):
Yeah, that's, I, I, I think that's enormous.
And I would say just anecdotallyfrom one team experience, it's
been, you know, a couple monthsinto the season now, this is
when Glen and I are recordingthis.
Um, I don't think anybody hasany impact right now.
Um, at the beginning there, itwas an adjustment.
There.
It was, it was rapid.
So they, you know, they were alittle fatigued going through it
the first few times, but wetrained that way.
(41:22):
We did our bullpens that waythis winter.
We got spring training goingthat way, and I, I think they,
uh, you know, they acclimated tothe, to the stress.
So I think it went, um, Youknow, really well.
Um, but, you know, I, Iremember, you know, to your last
point, I think that was a greatpoint, is the position players
too.
And not everybody realizes that,but I remember one year with the
Red Sox, we had a decent amountof, of injuries and I was trying
(41:45):
to do some risk analysis stuffand try to figure out what this
was.
Um, and I remember this, the RedSox were the number one team.
In minutes played per game, youknow, because they led the
league, I think that year inpitches per played appearance
among other things.
But that was a big thing.
But we had the longest games.
The shortest team, I think thatyear was the Baltimore Orioles
and I did the equivalent of theMajor League mean, uh, minutes
(42:08):
per game.
And the Red Sox played theequivalent of 16 more games than
the Orioles by minutes.
That's crazy, right?
So think about that.
Every, every pitch the secondbasement has to.
Do a squat, right, like a minisquat to get in that position.
You know, they, you know, theirknees start to get banged up.
It, it was impactful.
So, um, but that's great tohear.
(42:28):
I'm glad you don't think thatthere's, uh, you know, a
negative effect because it seemslike it's really helping the
game.
So, um, you know, appreciatepeople like yourself being
involved with that because it's,it's been great.
All right, before we let you go,the high five, we're gonna end
five quick questions, five quickanswers, kind of learn a little
about, about, about you, anexperienced, established leader
in this field.
I, I, I want to hear a littlebit more about you.
(42:50):
So first question is, what areyou, Glen, currently doing
yourself for your ownprofessional development?
What are you working on?
What are you reading?
What are you trying to getbetter at?
Where are you right now?
Glenn (42:59):
Yeah, uh, um, I'm trying to get better.
Uh, I'm, I'm really thismarvelous motion capture.
I'm really studying it from topto bottom.
Not only is it used in baseball,it's gonna be used in physical
therapy.
And I, I alluded to it before,there's multi-camera and there's
single camera systems.
A multi-camera systemessentially works like the
multi-camera marker systemwhere, um, where it tries to
(43:21):
figure out in three dimensionspace where they are.
The single camera systems arepretty interesting.
They're artificial intelligenceand, um, they're gonna be using
physical therapy clinic.
You basically set up a, a cellphone and try to do things.
So I'm really trying to learn.
How that's, uh, working, notjust trust the people making it,
that it works.
I'm trying to validate it andunderstand how it works.
(43:42):
Uh, I guess that's one thing I'mworking on.
Another thing I'm working on,uh, that's new in our lab is,
uh, you alluded to it beforeabout the big guy versus the
little guy pitching.
We're one of the studies we, westarted here at Asmis in our
cadaver lab where, as you know,we do research on cadavers and
elbows and shoulders and kneesand stuff.
And we're, I'm trying to see if,um, If, if, uh, body height and
(44:05):
weight, uh, are proportional toUCL strength, your ligament
strength, uh, if a guy is 30%bigger, uh, was his ligament 30%
stronger or is it unrelated?
Because, um, in biomechanics wescale the forces and torques by
weight and height.
(44:25):
But, uh, but should we be doingthat?
I don't know.
I don't know.
If a guy is 30% bigger, has abigger ligament, A strong, a
ligament or not.
So that's one thing we'reworking on also.
Mike (44:36):
Yeah, that's a good question.
Everybody's different, right?
I mean that, that's a goodquestion.
Um, I know this is supposed tobe like the fast, lightning
round, but I got anotherquestion I gotta ask.
So are, are iPhones ever gonnaget to the point where we can
measure depth?
Is it gonna be there?
Glenn (44:48):
Yeah.
So that's what's happening.
These, these, uh, some of thesemarkerless single camera thing?
Yeah.
It, it, um, it measures depthonly.
If the cell phone has a body ofknowledge in it, in other words,
it can't look at the firstbaseball pitcher or a first
fisherman or first personballing or whatever, and know
what, but if, if it has adatabase of knowing what a, a
(45:10):
baseball pitcher looks like,then it could look at a new
baseball pitcher and figure outthe three dimensional angles.
Uh, that, that, that's theartificial intelligence.
It's called a neural network or,or deep learning.
And that's what's.
Some of the technology companiesare doing, and Mike, I'm really
pretty impressed.
I, I've been trying to validate,uh, the three dimensional, the
(45:30):
multi-camera and the singlecamera ones and even the single
camera ones are, are workingpretty good.
Mike (45:36):
Right.
Right.
Especially if you ask the rightquestions and you know, the
limitations.
Right.
And I, I think that's, I thinkthat's awesome.
So, uh, exciting stuff for sure.
Um, second question.
What's one thing you've recentlychanged your mind about
professionally?
Not the Mets.
That the, they don't count that,that more professionally.
Glenn (45:53):
Um, you know, uh, recently, uh, we, we talk about
a lot about, uh, strengtheningthe shoulder, the, the
flexibility and the strength ofthe shoulder muscles to get our
basal pitchers ready because theshoulder and elbow essentially
mechanically are related andconnected.
But recently I'm thinking, Ithink we need more emphasis.
(46:13):
I think we need more focus alsoon the forearm muscles.
The flexor pronator, mass.
The, the, the, the fingerflexors and the, uh, forearm
wrist flexors.
I, I think, uh, not for thewrist point of view, but I, I
think, uh, for the elbow pointof view, I think we could put
more emphasis on having thosemuscles, uh, strengthen.
Mike (46:36):
Yeah.
I love that.
That's great.
And we've, we've, we've evolvedthat thought as well over the
last, like, probably five to 10years too.
So it looks like we got anotherepisode to talk about in the
future, is how that works out.
But, um, what's your favoritepiece of advice that you give,
uh, early career professionals?
You have a lot of fellows,orthopedic surgeons, and rehab
professionals that you see.
What, what, what's your bestpiece of advice that you like to
(46:57):
give new people?
Glenn (46:58):
Uh, I'd say two things.
One, one, be confident inyourself, but don't be cocky.
Okay?
And, and, um, And that speaksfor itself.
I mean, uh, be confidentyourself, but don't be a jerk
about it.
And the second one is basicallybe a, a team player.
And, uh, what I mean by that iswhen the young guy starting,
whether for a major league teamor in a clinic or in a research
(47:20):
lab, uh, listen to other people,you get a lot to learn.
I, I have a lot to learn.
Uh, and, um, and, uh, you know,we don't do it in politics or
whatever, but in, in science, weshould do it.
Listen to other people withother views.
And learn from other views and,and not be stuck in our
thoughts.
And really, um, I think that'show science works together,
especially the scientists andthe clinician working together.
(47:43):
We, we see things the samethings from different
perspectives and, uh, I thinkreally listen to each other and
work together.
Mike (47:50):
I think that's great too.
And I, I bet you that'ssomething you take for granted
too, because you've worked insuch a dynamic environment for
so long that that's just normalfor you.
Right?
That's, that's something thatyou're used to.
Glenn (48:00):
I, I wanna say I also saw that from Dr.
Andrews over the years.
He was always famous and greatfrom the beginning, but he was
never so cocky that he didn'tthink he could, couldn't learn
from other people, and helistened.
And I, I listened still to otherpeople and try to work as a
group.
Yeah.
Mike (48:17):
That's great.
Awesome.
Uh, what's coming up next foryou?
Glenn (48:21):
I got, I got a couple things coming up.
First of all, in, um, we'rerecording this right now in May,
but in June I'm gonna go to theMLB combine and Major League
Baseball started this combine acouple years ago, like the other
sports do.
And it's really exciting and I'minvolved, uh, with Major League
Baseball to try to help see howwe're testing the athletes.
The other thing is, this summerI'm going to Korea, I'm going
(48:43):
to, um, Give a, we're going on afamily vacation, but we're also,
I'm giving a couple of speechesat, uh, two different Korean
orthopedic society meetings, andI'm really excited about that.
I've been to Korea and Japanbefore, but uh, baseball is big
in America, but in Korea andJapan, uh, uh, I'm a rockstar
there.
They, they love our stuff and,uh, and uh, they're really
(49:06):
excited about all science andbaseball and, um, yeah.
So those are the things comingup now.
Yeah.
Mike (49:13):
That's fun.
And you're a rockstar here too,
Glenn (49:15):
Okay.
Thank.
Thank you, Mike.
Mike (49:16):
uh, so, uh, I, there's a lot of things.
I'm gonna put some links in theshow note.
I'm gonna put link to the, uh,American Baseball Biomechanic
Society.
Obviously asm, I, the, uh, ASMIInjuries in Baseball course is,
is one of the highlights of myyear of the course every year in
late January.
I, I, I know that's great.
Um, but where else can we learnabout you, Glen?
(49:37):
I.
Think you've, you've startedsomething new recently that it
would probably be worth peoplelearning about, but where else
can people find more about you?
Glenn (49:45):
And this is, this is an example of learning from other
people.
I learned this from you andKevin Wil at our as m i Baseball
course last January.
You and Kevin, eachindependently said Glenn.
Glenn, you gotta, besides givingthese presentations in this
conference, you gotta get onInstagram and other things like
that.
And really, Uh, that's totallytrue.
So, um, I'm on Instagram now.
(50:06):
I'm having so much fun doing it,Mike, and what I'm doing is I'm
breaking down my years and yearsof studies into 92nd blips.
Okay.
And, uh, on Instagram, I'm thebiomechanical man, uh, the
underlying, biomechanicalunderlying man.
And I'm posting again, you know,what's the difference of some of
these things we're talking aboutthrowing in full effort or, or,
(50:27):
uh, fast balls versus curveballs.
And, uh, I, I think the thing isAsmi and myself, I've done a
wonderful job of reaching sportsmedicine clinicians who read our
articles or comp to our courses,but we have not done as good a
job yet at reaching the millionsof people, uh, whether moms and
dads or the physical therapistsat this clinic here or there, or
(50:49):
you know, the type of peoplelistening to your podcast.
And so with Instagram, thebiomechanical man, I'm trying to
do this and having a good time.
Mike (50:57):
That's awesome.
And when Kevin and I first saidthat to you, right?
I, we meant to share yourresearch and your education.
We didn't mean start a TikTokand explore new dance routines
and all those things, but you'redoing, you're doing a great job.
But, uh, no, I, I, to me it'sthe power of social media.
Right, you're, um, it's you,your account's amazing because
it's authentic.
(51:17):
It's you, it's your personality,it's your humor, which like, it,
I, I think that's what makes itawesome and that's what makes
social media so special is thatyou get to put yourself out
there and, and share and, andyou're doing a great job.
So it's awesome to see that.
You gotta follow Glen and Asm I,SMI is also now in the game,
which is probably you, butthat's fine.
Um, uh, also in the game onInstagram, so, so definitely
(51:39):
check them out.
Um, and follow some of thoselinks in the show notes to learn
more about Dr.
Fleisig and some of the thingsyou can see, uh, from him in the
future.
But again, thank you so much,Glen.
Uh, I can't thank you enough forbeing on the show again today,
taking out time and your day todo this.
Uh, that was an absolute blast.
So appreciate it.
Glenn (51:56):
I always enjoy it, mate.
Always enjoy it.
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