Golf Injuries and Performance with Mike Scaduto - Episode 35 - The Sports Physical Therapy Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Mike Reinold (00:57):
Hey Mike, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you so much for joining ustoday.
How's everything going?

Mike Scaduto (01:02):
Everything's going great.
Thanks for having me.

Yeah, no, I, I, this is probably a long overdue,
uh, episode, right?
We, um, you and I work together,uh, every day, you know, face to
face, so we see each other.
We talk a lot about injuries.
Um, we, we spend a good amountof time ourselves thinking and
dreaming about golf.
So, um, you know, having youcome on and do a podcast about
this specialty area that you,you put so much of your energy

(01:26):
towards, I think is a bitoverdue.
So thanks for joining us.

Yeah, I mean, I really appreciate you having me.
Obviously we've worked togetherfor upwards of six years now,
and it's, it's really an honorto be invited onto this podcast.
I'm a big fan of the podcast.

Yeah.
I can't believe it when you saythat too.
I still think, you know,everything in Covid is like a
different timeframe.

We're coming up on six years,

That's amazing.
You know, congrat, you know, butit, it's, it's been awesome to
watch you, uh, grow and develop.
For those that don't know Mikefrom our other podcast, they ask
Mike Rein podcast where we gothrough questions.
Mike's been one of our stafftherapists here at Champion for
six years.
Right.
I mean that's, and that's a longtime working hand in hand with.
With all the therapists here, wehave a champion.
So it's been really awesome tosee you grow.

(02:09):
Not only you know yourself as anindividual, like in within this
profession, but how you wereable to grow a niche in an area
that you wanted to focus onprofessionally and how you
really successfully did that.
Right.
Um, like how much your, yourpatient population right now do
you think revolves aroundgolfers?

Yeah, it does.
It certainly fluctuates over thecourse of the year.
Um, but I would say at, at thepeak it's probably 50% golf and
50% baseball.
Um, pretty even split.
And then as we go through thegolf season, you know, there's,
there's kind of more and moregolfers that will come in.
Um, and then, you know, as weget into the summer, I think a
lot of golfers are, are tryingto go out and play on the

(02:48):
course.
So maybe we see a little bitfewer, but, um, it definitely
fluctuates over the course ofthe year.

Yeah, you, you, you'll see fewer initially until
they all start getting hurt orthey start playing poorly and
then they're back.
Right?

Right?
And they got a big tournamentcoming up in two days.
Let's see what we can do.

That, that's awesome.
Well, well in, in addition tothat, you know, Mike is the, um,
the co-chair or the, the secondchair, I don't know what we call
your chair of, of the Golf Sigof the American Academy of
Sports Physical Therapy.
So, you know, again, this is oneof those areas that Mike's dug
deep on and really.
Started to focus a little bitmore now, not just clinically,

(03:25):
but okay, now how do, how do westart staying on top of the
research?
How do we start collaboratingtogether as a profession to help
each other grow as, as golfspecialists?
Right?
So, um, I guess before we gettoo much into golf injuries and
stuff, um, any updates on, onthe golf sig and what you guys
have been up to?
Two.

Yeah.
Um, I mean, you know, themission of the Golf Sig is to,
is to help.
Um, people that are looking fora resource within physical
therapy, be able to find andconnect with other professionals
that are like-minded, um, thathave some experience in the
field.
Um, so we're putting out contenton the mobilized platform.
Um, we have some plans on how toprogress our content over the

(04:02):
next year.
Um, really excited.
Lindsay Becker is working hardon that.
Um, we're, we sent a fewproposals in for CSM next year.
Um, so we're hoping to get somegood presentations and some
really good content at csm, but,Uh, definitely encourage anyone
that's interested in golf and aphysical therapist or, uh, you
know, part of anyone that's partof the, a PTA to check out the,
the golf sig.

Yeah, and it, it seems like a great resource too,
because if you want to get intogolf specifics, right?
It's, it's a group of people.
You can come, you can come askquestions to us, and I just feel
like it's, it's a good, it's agood community to be able to
grow and develop some of theseskill sets and, and, you know,
Hey, how'd you do this?
How'd you, how, how'd you reachout to your local community and

(04:45):
get.
You know, some more people inyour clinic.
So, um, yeah, so thanks againfor doing that.
Kudos to you for doing that andum, you know, appreciate that.
But, um, but let's, let's dig incause I think we wanna get into
some cooler topics.
I apologize, I shouldn't havestarted with that.
I was just excited.
I wanted to hear how the sig wasgoing, but, um, for, for a more
exciting topic, Let's start withthe top, and I think this is,

(05:07):
you know, the, the easy one tostart with, with, with these
sports specific podcasts, buttell us a little bit about golf
injuries.
What are some of the most commoninjuries that you see in, in,
you know, how does somebody thatjust wants to get started into
this world of golf injuries inworking with golfers?
What do they need to be readyfor in terms of big injury

(05:27):
patterns that you see?

Yeah, I mean, I would start out by saying that,
uh, golf, uh, as a whole.
Um, is, is kind of viewed aswe're getting better at, uh, the
way that we look at golf, butkind of viewed as a leisurely
activity, but really is, it isvery stressful on the body,
right?
So the amount of force thatwe're putting through, um,
certain areas of our body isextremely high.

(05:50):
So the golf swing is stressfulon the body.
So I think if there is a historyof previous injury, um, it is
very possible that that couldflare up a previous injury.
And I think that's a lot of whatwe see.
Um, so the number one golfrelated injury would be low back
pain.
Um, you know, if someone has ahistory of low back pain, which
would be fairly common, if theygo out and hitting a bunch of

(06:13):
golf balls or at the beginningof the season they're ramping up
their golf program, um, thatcould certainly flare up their
symptoms.
Um, then from there, you know,shoulder pain is another very
common injury in the golf world.
Um, we tend to see a lot ofhyper mobile athletes.
Um, potentially, you know,dealing with some instability at
certain ranges in the golfswing.
Um, but I think the overallpicture is that within the golf

(06:34):
swing, we're moving our jointsto end range of motion at a very
high speed and velocity thatcreates a certain amount of
stress or strain at the joint.
Um, and on other tissues,there's certain tissues that are
gonna be overloaded, uh, andcertain tissues that are gonna
be overloaded because of theasymmetrical nature of the
swing.
Um, so over time these injuriestend to creep up and they, and

(06:54):
they tend to get.
Potentially progressively worseover the course of the golf
season unless we address theunderlying issue.

Right.
And I kind of like how youbrought that up cuz you, you
could argue there's a lot ofunderlying issues in golfers,
right?
I mean, we, you and I both, youknow, we, we've got the bug
ourselves a little bit where,you know, we, we spend a lot of
time practicing and, andthinking about that.
Um, of all the sports, and maybethis is, this is a misconception
I have in my head, but of allthe sports, it seems like you

(07:22):
can have so many.
Different ways to try to hitthat ball.
So many different mechanical,you know, I, I hate to call'em
faults because I don't wannanecessarily call them faults,
but so many different ways thatsomebody can use their body to
hit the ball.
It, it seems like that's one ofthe first things we talk about
as sports physical therapistsall the time is, is optimizing

(07:44):
movement.
Right?
So for, for, for.
You know, energy transfer forminimizing injuries to reduce
stress.
Um, uh, to me it seems likegolf, there's so many bad golf
swings.
I guess they'll just say it.
There's so many bad swing,including our own right.
That, that we do all the time.
You know?
H how much do you think thatthese injuries have to do with a

(08:04):
variety of factors versus it.
Is it poor mechanics?
Is it too much workload?
Are they practicing too much?
Do they, do they not golf for aweek and then get a giant extra
jumbo bucket at the drivingrange and just pound balls?
Like, like, tell me a little bitmore, I mean, uh, about why you
sincerely think that we'reseeing all these injuries.

Well, I think you, you covered a lot of ground
there.
I think there's a lot to, uh, alot to go into.
Um, I would from a technicalside, right?
The golf swing is, is obviouslya highly technical skill.
Um, so the technique can shiftstress around in the body,
right?
The, the goal that we're tryingto accomplish is obviously hit
the ball on the center of theclub face with the maximum

(08:45):
amount of speed, um, for a fullswing, um, to have a consistent
ball flight and have the ball dowhat we want it to do.
Now everyone kind of goes aboutthat in a different way, so
everyone's swing looks a littlebit different.
Um, but there's certain keycharacteristics in the golf
swing.
Early extension, sway, and slideare, are I think the three
biggest ones that we see, um,that have been shown to put

(09:08):
significantly more stress on thelumbar spine.
Um, so a typical driver golfswing at maximum max effort is
about eight times body weight onthe lumbar spine.
Um, compressive force, sopushing down on the spine.
So that's already a lot ofstress on the spine.
If we add in something like anearly extension, which is the

(09:28):
hips moving towards the ball,um, that can increase the sheer
force on the spine as well asthat compressive force we know
that can irritate the neuralstructures, the disc, facet
joints.
Um, there can also be a muscularcomponent to that.
So I think that the technicalside of things, Because it's an
asymmetrical sport that isrepeated, you know, so many
times.

(09:49):
Um, if we have a cumulativeamount of stress and we're
adding in these, these technicalfaults, certainly think that
could be a recipe for someonehaving a pain problem or having
some kind of injury.

Right, and and we always say that too.
It's not that necessarilythere's one great way to swing
or to throw a ball or to kick orto do, you know, any sort of
sport activity.
There isn't one way, but thereare different ways you can
apply.
Stress through it.
Right.
And there's somewhere thatstress is efficient, right.
With producing the task, likeyou said, consistently hit that

(10:23):
ball.
Right.
Um, and sometimes the, the, the,the suboptimal movements that we
see take away from that and putjust stress on the joint.
So, uh, you know, that's, I, tome I think that's fascinating.
Like, like how much stress wehave in the low back.
And, and I can say that.
A lot of people don't move theirbodies probably well enough to
take that stress off.

(10:44):
Right.
Do you, do you see issues like,like, you know, maybe this is
leading into your next questionhere a little bit, but like,
like, like somebody comes inwith low back pain.
How much time are you spendingon looking at their low back
versus looking at the rest ofthe body to see what, maybe
putting that extra stress on theback?

Yeah, absolutely.
I think from a, from a physicaltherapy standpoint, um, our, our
philosophy is we want to try andfind, you know, if the best that
we can, what's, what'sgenerating pain for this person
or if there's a structure thatwe can.
Identify or a test, a certainamount of lumbar spine tests
that we can do to kind of narrowdown, um, pain or in the lumbar

(11:23):
spine specifically if we'relooking for a directional
preference or something likethat.
So we do look at the lumbarspine to try and be as specific
as possible for that personbecause I do think it guides
their.
Their treatment, uh, plan from aphysical therapy standpoint.
Um, but then from a, a movementoptimization standpoint, right,
we're looking at the rest of thebody.
So the lumbar spine obviouslysits between the thoracic spine

(11:45):
and the hips, right?
Those are two key areas thatneed to be able to rotate, um,
in the golf swing.
And we have a pretty good ideaof how much rotation.
We're looking for, um, for outof those two, uh, kind of areas.
And we tend to see a lot ofpeople that are stiff,
particularly in the, uh,thoracic spine and in hip
internal rotation when someonefalls into that pattern, a a lot

(12:07):
of our treatment plan isdesigned around increasing
mobility, um, in order to tryand take some stress away from
the lumbar spine.
Now we do see people that are onthe other end of the spectrum.
People that are hyper mobile.
They have a ton of rotationthrough their thoracic spine, a
ton of rotation through theirhips.
Um, that may also, you know,cause a different type of stress

(12:28):
on the spine, uh, the lumbarspine and our treatment plan for
that person is, is prettysignificantly different.
Uh, different, we're focusing onstrength and stability and motor
control.
Um, so we try and look at, youknow, what's causing the pain
problem.
Try to narrow, narrow that downas much as we can.
And then we're trying tocategorize people roughly into

(12:49):
two or three different groups.
The people that are a littlemore stiff, they, they work on
flexibility, mobility.
The people that are on the morehyper mobile end of the
spectrum, they get, you know,stability, strength, motor
controlled, uh, base program.

That's awesome.
And I like the way you try totake a large global approach to
that, right?
Versus trying to make everythingso complicated.
Right.
I, I think it's one thing we doas a professional a little bit
here too.
Sure.
You have back pain.
So as a physical therapist,somebody working with this
person, you need to know how totreat low back pain.
Right.
You need to understand how toget that low back pain settled

(13:26):
down, do some baseline thingsto, to kind of work through the
rehabilitation of that low backpain.
But if you don't understand howthe rest of the body interacts
with the sport activity thatyou're dealing with, so the golf
swing, so the hip, the thoracicspine, just as examples here, if
you don't understand that, Ithink that's where sometimes we
probably don't.
Do as best as we can for theperson in front of us.

(13:48):
Right?
So, you know, we talk about thisa lot when we, when we talk
about PTs that wanna specializein a sport is that you have to
understand how to work withjoints and, and body parts and,
and common injuries, but youalso have to understand how the
rest of the body interacts withthat because you can have some
things that you'll never getover the hump with if you don't
address things.

(14:09):
Like you said, maybe the hip,maybe, maybe the mid back.
Right.
And, and I just think that'ssuch a great way of thinking
about it.
Um, you know, how many times doyou think you see somebody that
comes in and, you know,tightness versus hypermobility?
You know, what, what's thepercentage of the equation of
people that you see?
Because again, we're talkingabout a, like a recreational

(14:30):
sport for adults versus, versusa lot of kids.
Right.
And do you, do you see thatchanging as.
The teenage athlete to thecollegiate athlete, to the pro,
to even the adult recreational.
How do these people presentdifferently in your hands?

Yeah, I think it definitely changes throughout
the, throughout the course of,uh, the lifespan, right?
So the younger junior golfersthrough high school and college,
they tend to be more hypermobile.
Um, I think people do get alittle bit stiffer as we age.
Now, some of that is genetic andhereditary, where, you know, if
you're, um, super loose jointperson as you get older, you may

(15:06):
be able to maintain some of yourflexibility.
Um, but I think typically theyounger clients that come in and
they have so much rotationalmobility, they aren't very
strong, they have difficultywith motor control.
They don't know where their bodyis in space.
Um, when we look at their golfswing, it tends to be very long

(15:27):
and there tends to be, um, areaswhere you can see they're just
leaking some power because they,they can't control, um, the
ability basically to stop theirbody from rotating in the
backswing, they get very longand there's a power leak there.
First is, maybe we'll talk aboutthe older, kind of more
hypomobile or stiffer person.
Um, they tend to struggle increating width or turn in the

(15:50):
backswing, and that has a lot ofimplications for how they, how
they come down into thedownswing.
So if you can't create a fullshoulder turn in your backswing,
um, we tend to see an over thetop move with the arms because
the arms will kind of initiatethat downswing.
And cuz we're trying to createspeed, but we can't really
rotate our body very well.
So we see that over the top movetends to be coupled with some

(16:12):
kind of early extension at thehips.
Um, but again, our, ourphilosophy is that your golf
swing is a reflection of howyour body moves.
So if you have a stiff body withnot a lot of mobility, your golf
swing is probably going toreflect that.
Um, and you're going to have tocompensate for any movement
abnormalities or any movementfaults that you have.
Um, so we tend to see all thesedifferent funky things happen in

(16:34):
the golf swing, but if you dotake a step back and, and think
of the body first, a lot ofthose faults tend to make sense,
uh, when you look at it throughthat lens.

Right, for sure.
And, and even not just injuryrisk, but people that are
struggling to make a mechanicalchange, for example, they wonder
why they struggle sometimes,right?
They, they, they, they're tryingto do something over and over
again, but their body isn't inposition to actually allow that
to happen efficiently.
Uh, no wonder why this is a, um,uh, a very frustrating sport.

(17:05):
I'll leave it at that, right?
Where, where.

Yeah, and I'll, I'll tell the, I'll tell the
golfer first session.
Say, it's not, it's not my, Idon't view it as my job to fix
your swing.
For me, I want to be able toallow your bo, uh, teach you how
to move your body in a way thatyou can get into a certain
position.
And then your golf coach takesyou the rest of the way and
they, they teach you how toincorporate that into your
swing.
So we're always a few degreesseparated from the actual golf

(17:29):
swing itself, but we're tryingto allow the body to move to
create context for the feelingthat they will have in the golf
swing.

I, I think that's great too.
And I think that's another areathat sometimes young.
PTs get stuck a little bit, Ithink trying to be, uh, a little
bit of everything and trying togive swing tips and swing
advice, right?
And, um, you know, I, I'm notnecessarily against that, right?
So like, uh, maybe in and ofitself that isn't terrible, but

(18:00):
I think there's always a betterapproach if you work with
somebody that specializes inthese things, right?
So, collaborating with yourlocal PGA professionals, some,
some coaches in your area, it,it just makes a more.
Uh, rewarding environment, Iwould say for probably both you
and the PGA coach, like the, thegolf coach as well as the, the
person, right?
And that, and I think that's,that's something that young

(18:22):
professionals miss sometimes.
Um, let's shift gears for asecond and talk about that,
Mike.
So I know you have some strongrelationships with some, um, Um,
swing coaches in the community.
If, if you are a new physicaltherapist, you're starting to
get in this, what are some ofthe tips that they can do to
establish some of these, theserelationships and, and, and
really help them blossom, right?

(18:42):
Because it's one thing to go sayhi, bring a coffee and say, Hey,
I'm, I'm down the street.
Send me your patients.
But how do you really get thatrelationship to bloom?

Yeah, I guess I can, I can kind of tell the
origin story of some of therelationships I've made with,
with the PGA coaches and, andMike, I give you a lot of credit
cuz it was kind of your idea ina way.
Um, but so, you know, obviouslya lot of, a lot of the golf
physical therapists, um, thepeople that are really
passionate about golf tend toplay golf.

(19:12):
Right.
So if you're into golf yourself,I think one of the best ways to
make connections in the space isto either go out and get a
lesson from a teachingprofessional or to try and play
golf with, with these people aswell.
I think that's a great way tobuild a connection.
So when I was first startingout, new grad physical
therapists working at Champion,um, this awesome, we heard about

(19:33):
this awesome golf teachingfacility opening up, you know, a
couple miles down the road and Ithink I was.
In the fir the paint wasn't evendry on the walls and the
simulators weren't all the wayinstalled.
Um, and I was getting a lessonfrom, you know, this swing coach
and didn't tell him I was aphysical therapist, didn't tell
him, you know, we were buildingthis, this golf physical

(19:53):
therapy, um, program down tochampion.
But I just took lessons from himcuz I was one, I wanted to get
better at the game myself.
And two, I wanted to kind oflearn his teaching philosophy.
Um, and it ended up blossominginto a pretty good relationship
between the two of us and.
And I would say I credit a lotof the success, um, or, you
know, a lot of clients still tothis day come from, you know,

(20:17):
this individual who has beenhugely helpful in, in my career
and my knowledge base.
So I think the collaborationwith a swing coach is vital.
Um, if you're looking to makethat connection, you don't have
to come out and say, Hey, like,I'm a physical therapist.
I want to work with your, uh,with your clients, you know,
become a client of that person.

(20:37):
And take lessons and build a,build a different type of
relationship and let thatblossom over time into one
that's very trustful.
You know, you're not trying tonecessarily undercut that, that
person in any way.
Um, but you've built a certainamount of trust where they feel
good about sending their clientsto you, knowing that they're

(20:57):
gonna be treated the right way,but also that that line of
communication between the two ofyou is gonna be open.

Yeah.
That's awesome.
And, and I really like how youended it with that too, where
it's not just sending youpeople, but it's also having
that open communication.
And I, I think that's somethingthat, At Champion, you know, we
got from the pro sports model,right?
It's a collaborative approach inpro sports and collegiate
sports, right?
Where coaches, skill coaches,uh, strength coaches,
therapists, every, everything,athletic trainers, everything

(21:24):
under the sun, all come togetherand collaborate.
And at Champion we try to dothat with, with everything.
The, I think one approach thatwe've never done at Champion in
that we never will is we don'tgo around to every golf facility
and just drop off businesscards.
Right.
That's, I mean, you're just,that's random, right?
What we do is we createrelationships with people that

(21:45):
we want to, right.
So if your swing lessons withthat coach Mike, um, went
poorly, do you think youwould've even wanted.
I mean, maybe you wouldbusiness-wise, but Right.
Like you like it, it, itwouldn't have grown.
Right?
It's you guys, you got togetherand you jive.
Right?
There is a connection, there's alike-mindedness and even

(22:05):
personality-wise that led to therelationship growing.
And I think if you go into itwith that, and then also we're
also not selfish about it.
We send as many people there andthen, That they sent to us,
right?
So, um, you know, it, it's abouttaking that different approach,
right, about actually trying todevelop a relationship versus
just a business arrangement,right?

(22:26):
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.
I would say for, for physicaltherapists looking to get into
the golf world, um, obviously PJteaching professionals are a
huge way to get into theindustry and they're really good
at what they do.
Um, I think the, the ch thechallenge and I think as a
profession we're getting betterat this.
And I think golf as a whole is,is really getting better at
understanding.

(22:49):
Um, you know, the golfperformance, physical therapy,
uh, and physical aspect of thegame.
But making sure you communicatewhat you have to offer to that
coach's clients and communicateit in a way where they
understand what you're trying todo, um, and how it compliments
what they're trying to do.
I think that's, that's reallythe key to starting that

(23:10):
relationship.

Yeah.
And, and have it start with you,right?
Like, I like how you went thereand you became a client yourself
because it's so much easier to,to understand and to connect
with somebody when, when you dothat.
And what you did was you said,you said, I trust you.
Right?
And I believe in the concept ofcoaching, like, and.
Paying somebody to help me toget better at something.
So it's a great way to, um, to,to start that relationship.

(23:32):
So, um, so if you're trying todo the same thing, you know,
take some tips from that, Ithink that would be, you know,
very helpful.
It's, it's not about throwingbusiness cards around and buying
lunch and, you know, Showing upwith, with coffee and, and
trying to persuade people tosend'em to you.
It's about buildingrelationships and then
collaborating.
Remember the last thing Mikesaid was it's you open up

(23:53):
communication.
You know, we text back and forthlike, Hey, I think you're seeing
this guy tomorrow.
Here's the three things I'vebeen working on.
Like, what can you do with hisswing to help take some pressure
off his back?
What a great approach.
Right.
Like that, that that's, that'show you, you, you know, you
build successful businesses, Ithink.
Um, and then Mike, you, you,you, let's switch gears now

(24:14):
here, and let's talk to theother end of the spectrum, which
is probably the larger end isevery golfer wants to get
better.
Right.
So, you know, I, I wish, justlike most humans, I wish would
come to physical therapy soonerto try to minimize their
injuries in the future.
I wish golfers came and had alittle bit more of an emphasis

(24:34):
on being proactive with theirbody to not only reduce
injuries, but to get a littlebit better.
Um, how does your.
How does your approach changewhen you don't have an acute
injury, but you're looking toactually enhance somebody's
ability to golf better theirperformance?
What do you do differently?

Yeah, I think, uh, the, in the absence of an acute
injury, it kind of opens up, uh,more assessment tools for me.
So our assessment is we, we do aTPI based assessment.
We've added in some differenttype of movement screens as
well, but we u utilize the TPIscreen to, um, pick up on any,
you know, mobility, flexibility,um, or motor control issues in

(25:16):
the swing.
Um, that's a pretty standardassessment.
And then in the absence of aninjury, or even with an injury,
we'll we'll move into our powertesting.
So from a performancestandpoint, we try to break down
the components of how peoplecreate club head speed and power
in the golf swing.
We test those to compare thoseto our normative data and find
out where we wanna spend, uh,the most of our time.

(25:38):
In the gym, um, in order toimprove those metrics.
So, for example, vertical jumphas been a really key metric for
us, and we come in and wecompare, you know, on the force
plates, we have all types ofdata that we can gather on, on
golfers.
Um, but we, we compare that toour normative data and say, you

(26:00):
know, based on your age group,your handicap, here's where you
rank compared to other golfers.
Um, if we got these numbers up,you know, this may unlock some
more clubhead speed for you, ifwe can kind of carry that into
your swing.
Now, let's, let's emphasize thatin your next program, let's give
you some more vertical forcedevelopment.
Uh, maybe we're doing some kindof jumping.

(26:21):
Uh, weighted jumping or somedeadlift, but with an emphasis
on speed.
Um, so I think the, from aperformance standpoint, our
assessment really does, um,change our, our treatment and
change our strength andconditioning program, um, to
maximize those qualities thatwe're, that we're going after.

Yeah.
And I, I like the way youapproach that too.
It's, it's, you could blindlysay, well, just, you know, start
a generic program.
Right.
Get stronger.
Right.
But, you know, I think one thingthat our crew at Champion, you
know, Dush Podell, Jonah MonLock, they've really taken the,
the lead on the sports scienceinitiatives and actually looking
at force data and saying, Um, isstrength what you need or is

(27:03):
power what you need?
Is to move that strength faster?
Is that what you need?
Um, and, and you know, to methat's some like next level
details for a recreational,adult golfer that has huge
impact, right?
So, you know, for me, I, I thinkit's been awesome to see you
guys develop that to, to havesuch a comprehensive program.
Um, Is it the same in golf as itis for baseball?

(27:24):
Where for us, we, we get a lotof people when they're dealing
with an injury for the firsttime and then they become
clients with us forever.
Right.
They just, they, they continueto, to, to see now like, oh, I
should have been doing thisbefore I get, I got hurt.
Um, is that a similar thing thatyou see with golfers?

Yeah, absolutely.
I think, you know, a, again, itcomes down to.
Um, every golfer wants to playmore golf and play better golf.
So if you can, if you can makean impact on how their body
feels every time they go outonto the T, um, I think that's
gonna create a lot of buy-in.
And they're gonna, they're gonnareally adhere to that program,

(28:03):
um, that you give them.
And of course, the programchanges over time.
Um, but again, we want to, we,we want them to feel as good as
possible every time they playgolf.
So that is certainly in the backof my mind when I'm writing a
program or working with thestrength coaches.
Um, and depends on the time ofyear when they're in season.
You know, we're, we're, we'retrying to minimize muscle

(28:24):
soreness.
Um, we're trying to optimize,you know, how they feel in
performance.
So I would say if we do it theright way, golfers will, will
see a pretty immediate, um,benefit and they'll be, they'll
adhere to the program, um, for apretty long time.

That's awesome.
And it's been pretty good.
It's been almost a half hour,and I haven't asked any
questions specific to my golfgame yet.
So, um, I think we're, I thinkI'm overdue, but, you know,
bringing up that point is veryinteresting.
I just had this conversationwith one of the clients that
you're working with, um, out onthe golf course, and we were, we
were talking about this, but youknow, We don't spend the winter

(29:01):
wa taking a four hour walk rightup and down hills and doing
those, those sort of things.
Like, so what, what, you sit ata desk job all day, right?
And then you just get up and yougo golf and you're walking the
chorus, you're carrying yourbag, you're doing all these
things.
Our bodies get tight and soreand stiff, and then that impacts
the swing.
Right?
And it's funny, we, we've talkedlike sometimes I'm not even sore

(29:23):
from golfing.
I'm sore from, from walking andcarrying my bag more than I am
from golfing, right?

Yeah.
Uh, this would be an interestingstudy and I, I don't know if it
exists, but, um, you know, wetalked about vertical force
production and, uh, the impactit has on clubhead speed.
I wonder, you know, fatigue inrelation to your ability to
crave vertical force over thecourse of a round, uh, be an
interesting study.
I know from, for myself.

(29:49):
As soon as my legs start gettingtired, um, I, I kind of lose the
swing a little bit.
I start getting very upper bodydominant.
I'll start hitting some poles,um, so I can feel it coming,
like as I get further into around, maybe 14, 15th hole, my
legs are tired.
Um, especially if we're playingat Oakley where it's a little
bit hilly.
Um, and then my swing, my swingchanges and, you know, it, it

(30:12):
becomes very upper bodydominant.
And for someone, With an injuryhistory, um, particularly
shoulder, elbow, even low back,that, that could be a time in
the realm where they startfeeling it.
Maybe they feel pretty good atthe beginning and, and over the
course of the round it creepsup.

Yeah.
It's, it's super interesting,like, and I would say the part
I'd share, cuz I'm, I'm similarmyself, um, when, if I'm in a
match, like in like a compcompetitive type thing or
something and I'm in a cart, I,I'm better, I'm, I'm, I, I golf
better when I take a cart.
Now I never take a cart cause Idon't wanna take a cart.
Right.
But like, I'm, I am.

(30:47):
I golf better, I'm moreconsistent.
My swing is more consistent.
So that actually motivated me alot this winter to get on a
strength training program to, toget, you know, a little bit
more, you know, I was doingmore, you know, I was riding my
peloton a little bit more,trying to get some leg endurance
stuff going right.
Like, um, and it worked.
And, and, and, you know, I mean,I'm a busy guy, just like all
us.
I didn't put that much effortinto it, but I did some and it

(31:10):
worked.
And, you know, my body feels somuch better going into this golf
season.
So, um, you know, it's aninteresting thing.
But again, taking a step backfrom the lens of us and the
listeners of this podcast now,like this, this is where you can
grow a golf business so easilyin my mind.
Right.
If, if you're passionate aboutgolf yourself, right.
And, you know, some of thethings we talked about in this
episode already, you know, isunderstanding the common

(31:33):
injuries, understanding a bit ofthe swing, seeing how they play
together, um, and really just.
You know, helping people, notjust, not just get rid of that
back pain, but to optimize theirbody so they feel better next
round.
You've got a lifelong clientthat's gonna come to you for,
for various things.
So, um, you know, really, reallygood stuff.
Um, Mike, before we switchgears, it's one other thing I

(31:54):
wanted to talk about, but beforewe switch gears, any, what other
advice do you have for someone,you know, continuing down this,
this, this, this.
This thought process.
What advice do you have forpeople that are looking to get
started specializing in golf?
You know, what are some areasthat they can learn from?
So, obviously you mentioned tpi.
Maybe you can, you know,elaborate a little bit on that.
But what are some areas thatthey, they can start learning

(32:15):
from and other advice that you'dgive them?

Yeah, I think there's, there's so many
resources out there.
Um, I think TPI is a very, um,it's a great resource to learn
from.
That's the Titleist PerformanceInstitute.
Um, you know, they have beenaround for a while now and kind
of been at the forefront of, ofgolf, uh, from a physical
standpoint.

(32:38):
So I think that would be thefirst place.
Take the TPI level one, learnthe movement screen, learn the
body swing connection.
I think that's a no-brainer.
Um, I think you gotta startthere.
Um, from there, I think youcould, you could go into, um,
mastering each joint inindividually, so, you know, as a
physical therapist.

(32:59):
Learning how to treat eachjoint, learning how to, um,
improve mobility.
So there's all different kindsof courses and, uh, philosophies
around that.
I think you don't have to marryyourself to one philosophy or
one type of treatment.
Um, but being able to blend allof those together to achieve the
goal that you're trying to get,I think is super important.

(33:20):
Um, from there, I think goinginto strength and conditioning
principles, Um, learning how toover the long term train these
athletes, um, and or, and orbuilding a relationship with a
strength coach, um, that, youknow, either specializes in golf
or has an interest like yourselfin, in growing into the game of

(33:41):
golf.
Um, would be hugely helpful.
Someone to collaborate andbounce ideas off.
Um, and then learning from golfcoaches.
So I think it's, it's kind of,you know, being a, being a
really good physical therapist,learning how to treat different
kind of, uh, each of these kindof common injuries in the golf
world.
Learning how from strength andconditioning coaches, um, how to

(34:03):
train these athletes in the gym.
And then learning from.
PGA professionals and, and, uh,about the technical aspects of
the swing and how, how golferslearn how to play golf.

Yeah.
And, and I, I think that ifthere's two key partners in this
that I would try to build on is,I think first and foremost, find
some good swing coaches nearyou.
Um, I think that's gonna be the,the, probably the.
Best relationship.
But don't underestimate alsofinding that strength coach too,
right?
Like, you know, especially ifyou're a physical therapist,

(34:34):
that you just have a small gymin like an, in an office, right?
And it's not equipped to reallyhandle that.
Like, I don't wanna say don'tforce it, right?
Because that's, that's not thepoint getting at.
But it's much better if you, ifyou get a collaborative
relationship with this nice gymdown the street that focuses on
golfers, I think what you'll dois you, you kind of all kind of
like, you know, Hit yourskillset, the, the best and

(34:55):
probably get the most out of itfor the person.
So, you know, find a good swingcoach, find a good strength
coach that specializes in that,because when we put the three
heads together, wow, that's agreat outcome for golfers.
Right?
So, um, you know, really, reallycool thing to do.
Um, So Mike, thanks so much for,for joining us for this one.
One other thing we wanted totalk about, this is a real

(35:17):
interesting topic that I thinksome PTs are, are gonna be
interested in, but you'veactually just recently released
a product.
You're selling, and I know it'sfunny, we're gonna almost sounds
like we have a golf swingtraining aid that we're about to
announce.
Right.
But no, that's not it.
Right.
Um, as a physical therapist, youjust, you just started
manufacturing and selling adevice for people that just had

(35:40):
shoulder surgery and helpingthem sleep at night.
Right.
The shoulder sleeper.
Right.
So, um, I, I've, you know, been,I've been watching you do this
for a couple years now, I think.
Right.
Um, it's a long process.
I mean, you, you invented, youmade up a thing and made it
appear in real life and then nowyou're trying to sell it.

(36:02):
It's amazing.
Right.
But like, you know, to come upwith a physical product to help
people, it was amazing.
But tell us a little bit aboutthe shoulder sleeper.

Yeah.
Uh, it's definitely been, it'sbeen a long journey and it's
been kind of a wild ride, um, inlearning every single day.
Things I didn't know, uh, andthings I didn't even know
existed that I, that I just needto learn and kind of figure out
with my, with my partners.
Um, but really, you know, westarted the company with the
mission of helping people sleepbetter after shoulder surgery.

(36:35):
Um, as a physical therapist, youknow, treat who treats a lot of
shoulders and, and elbows.
Um, you know, a lot of patientscome in and say, I have, I have
trouble sleeping.
Um, and it's not just for thefirst, you know, four to six
weeks after shoulder surgery,uh, while they're in the sling.
I think nobody likes being inthe, in the sling.
It's uncomfortable.
The next strap is, isirritating, uh, especially while

(36:58):
in bed.
Um, sometimes people have tosleep in a recliner.
Um, it's also when they comeoutta the sling, sometimes it's
difficult to prevent that personfrom sleeping on their surgical
side and that can irritate theshoulder as well.
Um, so we wanted to come up witha product that, that kind of met
that goal, um, but was also verycomfortable.

(37:18):
So, um, you know, the, thecompany was founded by myself
and Sam, Jacob Sack, my businesspartner, um, who was actually a
patient of mine who had shouldersurgery.
And, you know, he, he came to meone day.
He's a, he's a professionalbaseball player as well.
Um, he came to me one day and,and said, Hey, like, my shoulder
feels great, but like every timeI wake up, like it's pretty

(37:40):
sore.
Um, I, I roll onto it at nightand.
And it wakes me up.
Um, everything else feels great.
I just, I can't sleepcomfortably.
Uh, what should I do?
And I showed him a way to kindof stuff a few pillows under his
arm and I was like, Hey, just,just do this.
And he is like, can I just buythat?
And we looked around online and,and, and literally couldn't find
anything that we saw that wouldbe, you know, uh, stable, stable

(38:04):
enough, or comfortable enough tokind of solve his problem.
And I will say, Sam, Uh, youknow, convinced me, kind of like
had to push me.
He's like, let's build it man.
Let's make it, um, and it tookabout 14 months, uh, to, to get
a viable product that we could,that we could offer to
customers.

(38:25):
Um, and it's still a day in, dayout struggle.
There's still a lot of thingsthat pop up that are difficult.
So I would say building aphysical product, um, is, is not
the easiest thing to do.
Um, and it's, it's definitelyvery time consuming.

Yeah, I mean, you had to design it.
You had to find a person to makea mold, to make them for, you
had to manufacture it.
You're, you have to then figureout how to get it from there to.
Uh, to be able to ship it topeople when they, they sell.
Right.
Like what, what are some of the,the, the things that surprised
you the most about this process?

Yeah.
Uh, um, you know, obviously the,the amount of time that it
takes.
Um, I think you have an idea inyour head and trying to
communicate that to people thatmaybe don't understand the, um,
the specifics of the product,right?
So you're dealing with a lot ofengineers, um, that understand,
you know, the body, but notnecessarily what we are trying

(39:24):
to achieve.
So trying to communicate that todifferent professions, um, to,
for example, to build the 3Dcomputer model that we could
send to.
An engineering company, um, tocarve that model out of a block
of foam for our very firstprototype, right?
So, um, that was, that was thefirst challenge I think from a
legal standpoint.
Um, you know, trying to applyfor these patents, um, becomes

(39:47):
very expensive.
Um, but you, I think that'ssomething that you definitely
have to do.
So if you are looking to developa physical product that is
patentable, um, get yourself apatent attorney.
Um, I think that's somethingthat, you know, is, is worth it
in the long run, but an addedexpense.
Um, and then from amanufacturing standpoint, it is,
it's expensive.

(40:08):
Everything is expensive.
The, the materials, the labor,um, so, you know, if you're,
again, it's, it's an endeavor,um, to, to, to try and create a
physical product and bring it tomarket.
Um, but it is exciting at thesame time.
And, you know, it's, it's.
We've gotten some good feedbackabout the product and that's,

(40:28):
that makes it worth it.

Yeah, I think every person when they see it,
they say, I wish I had thisright.
I mean, it's, it's, it's prettycommon.
So, uh, where can people findout more about the shoulder
sleeper?
Mike?

Yeah.
The best place would be at ourwebsite, shoulder sleeper.com.
Um, we do try and put out someeducational content as well.
We have a blog, um, with, youknow, very much shoulder surgery
and shoulder surgery.
Trouble sleeping relatedcontent.
Um, so we, we try and educatepeople as well, not just sell
the product.

(41:01):
We have a free e-book that couldbe downloaded, that's a
pre-operative guide, um, toshoulder surgery, talks about
all the things that you wouldneed to know heading into
shoulder surgery.
Um, so again, we want thateducational component from our
company.
Our mission is to, is to helppeople, um, the best that we
can.
So there are some good resourceson the website.
And then we're active on socialmedia.

(41:22):
Um, Instagram is at the shouldersleeper.
Those would probably be the twotop places.

Yeah, and if, obviously if you're dealing with
some, some patients withshoulder surgery, this is
something where you can justsend them to the website, right
Mike?
They can get this themselvesand.

Absolutely.
It's, it's a, you know, directto consumer model.
They can order it on.
Our website gets delivered in afew days and, you know,
hopefully they're on their wayto better sleep.

Yeah, I mean, to sleep better for 150 bucks for,
you know, four to six weeksafter shoulder surgery.
I think a ton of people would dothat.
So, um, you know, kudos to you.
I maybe we, we have to doanother episode where we just
talk about, uh, the, the makinga physical therapy product
because man, you just, you juststarted a business.
This is like a whole thing.

It's a whole thing.
I, I, I didn't realize when I,when Sam and I started, but it's
a whole thing.

Yeah, it's crazy.
It's crazy.
Uh, well we look forward tocontinuing to see that grow.
Uh, Mike, before we let you go,I'm gonna end with the high
five.
Five quick questions, five quickanswers to learn a little bit
about you and your thoughts andyour head and that sort of
stuff.
But first question, what are youcurrently doing yourself?
What are you reading?
What are you working on?
What are you doing for your ownprofessional development?

Yeah, I've been, uh, I've been nervous about
these questions.
I listened to your podcast.
I knew they were coming.
Um, no, I think it's been a lotof, um, Recently it's been a lot
of marketing related content.
Um, so digital marketer andtrying to, to learn how to
promote the shoulder sleeperpillow.
Um, from a clinical standpoint,um, I've been doing a deep dive

(42:54):
into the shoulder trying to, toreally understand, you know,
shoulder surgeries and thedifferent, uh, surgical
procedures that are going on,um, and how those are evolving
over time, um, from a clinicalstandpoint and from from the
shoulder sleeper standpoint.

That's awesome.
I like it.
Um, and you know, to give Mikecredit too, I, we, this, this is
seven o'clock on a Mondaymorning that we, um, that we did
this and we both just woke upand I'm like, oh man, I forgot
to send you questions ahead oftime.
Sorry about that.
So he's going blind here, so Igive him credit.
So luckily a past listener, Ilike that.
That's awesome.
But, um, all right.

(43:28):
Second question.
What's one thing that you'verecently changed your mind
about?
Professionally.

Okay.
Um.
You know, I'm, I'm awkwardsilence here.
Awkward pause.
Um, yeah, I would say probablythe emphasis, you know, if we're
going specific to golf, I thinkwe've learned a lot about the
vertical force requirements inthe golf swing.
And, you know, I think a lot ofwhat I used used to do, looking

(43:57):
back at it, was very rotationalpower focused.
Um, and maybe I missed thatvertical force component.
So I would say, you know, theaddition of more.
Vertical force training ingolfers versus just working on
rotational power productionwould be something.

Right.
I like that.
That's a good one.
I think a lot of people, uh,have done that in their careers.
Right.
We, you know, and not to saythat rotation's not important,
but I think we've all learnedthat.
Vertical, you know, since wehave technology now and we look
at the amount of force that wesee, that vertical is huge.
So, um, that's a great one.
I like that.
Um, you work with a lot of ourstudents at Champion, obviously.
What's the best piece of advicethat you like to give our

(44:36):
clinical students at Champion?

Yeah, I think we see, we see so many different
students coming in the door withall different types of
experience levels, um, anddifferent interests, right?
I think that there's, there's alot of reasons why students get
attracted to Champion.
Um, but I think, you know, mybiggest piece of advice for them
is try to absorb, um, as much asthey can and apply it to their
own special niche.

(44:59):
So they all come in with, withsome type of interest level in
some area.
Um, take what they, they learnfrom a business standpoint, from
a physical therapy standpoint,and try to apply that to their
own niche.
And I think they'll be verysuccessful.
Um, now as a new grad, sometimesthat's a little bit difficult.
I think you definitely have tomaster the basics first.
Um, but, you know, have, have agoal in mind of where you're

(45:21):
trying to work and try to applythose principles into a specific
niche to help, uh, to help asubset of the population.

Yeah, that's a great one.
I like it.
Um, I feel like for the next twowe've kind of been talking about
a little bit, but what's comingup next for you?

Yeah, I think from the, from the golf, um, golf
Sig, again, we're putting outcontent on the, on the mobilized
platform.
Um, you know, Lindsay Becker isa great resource and we work in
collaboration with that.
Check us out at CSM next yearfor sure.
Um, we're, we're puttingtogether some really good,
really good talks, um, at leastin our proposals, so, um, that

(45:57):
would be a big thing to checkout.
Um, shoulder sleeper is, is outthere, it's out in the world.
Um, so, you know, feel free tocheck that out if you're a
physical therapist or if you're,you know, of, of some
potentially a patient.
Um, I mean, I would say thoseare really the big things that
are going on right now.

Awesome.
And then where can we learn moreabout you and all this stuff?
And, and I think we shouldprobably, this is probably a
good spot to mention too, like,you know, we we're always humble
about these things, right?
But you've, you've built areally good golf performance
training program that we sell onthe internet to people, to
golfers, right?
So if, if I was.

(46:36):
A PT or a strength coach thatwas starting to work with
golfers.
I just wanna see what yourtemplated training program is.
Now, obviously in person, wecustomize that a bunch, but we,
where can people learn moreabout, you know, that sort of
stuff and, and more about you ingeneral, Mike, on social media
and stuff.

Yeah, I would say the, uh, on the, the Champion
PTN performance website, we havekind of my bio in our golf, uh,
philosophy, um, golf performancephilosophy.
We also have the ChampionAdvanced Golf Performance
Program.
Uh, bit of a mouthful, butthat's, that's a great program,
um, that we developed for peoplethat have some gym experience.

(47:14):
And are looking to, you know,improve their performance
through a, through a gym-basedtraining program.
Um, and then we also, I alsohave in help develop a, an
at-home, um, you know, golfperformance program.
It's called Fit for Speed.
That's in collaboration withAdam Koff at Pure Drive Golf.
Um, so that is more of a athome, very minimal equipment,

(47:38):
um, golf performance trainingprogram.
It also comes with six weeks oflessons and six weeks of a speed
program.
Um, so those would really be thetop two programs.
Um, and then social media atMike Ski, d p t, um, would be
another place to find some golfrelated content.

Yeah.
Awesome.
It's great stuff and definitely,uh, a bunch of great resources,
uh, for you to check out ifyou're interested in
specializing in golf injuries orperformance training and really
just starting to grow thatbusiness within your own niche.
I think that'd be some greatstuff.
So Mike, thank you so much forjoining us and coming on the
podcast.

Thanks for having me, Mike.
Really appreciate it.

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Golf Injuries and Performance with Mike Scaduto - Episode 35

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Golf Injuries and Performance with Mike Scaduto - Episode 35