August 8, 2023 • 58 mins
Each sport has it’s own unique considerations when it comes to performance enhancement and injury management. Ice hockey is one of the more unique sports, as skating is a lot different than the demands of field or court sports!
On this episode, I’m joined by Kevin Neeld, the Head Performance Coach for the Boston Bruins, and one of the leading strength coaches when it comes to working with hockey players. We’re going to talk about the role of a strength coach in the NHL and some of the unique considerations when working with hockey players.
Full show notes: https://mikereinold.com/working-with-hockey-players-with-kevin-neeld
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
On this episode of the sportsphysical therapy podcast, I'm
joined by Kevin Nield.
Kevin is the head performancecoach of the Boston Bruins NHL
team, and an expert in workingwith hockey players.
In this episode, we talk abouthis job with the Bruins.
The evolution of strengthcoaches in the NHL, and some of
the unique considerations ofworking with hockey players.
Mike (00:29):
Hey, Kevin, thanks so much for joining me on the podcast
today.
How's everything going?
Kevin (00:33):
Things are going great, Mike, I appreciate you having
me.
Mike (00:36):
Yeah, we've um, uh, we've been talking for months now,
right Kev, about trying to getyou on and obviously it's hard
when you're working in prosports and you know, you're in
season, you're in the grind.
I know it's hard.
So, uh, you know, it's, it'sexciting to be able to get, to
have a chance to speak with youand, and talk a little bit about
your experiences.
So again, thank you for comingon the show.
Kevin (00:56):
No, it's my pleasure.
I, uh, you, you know, youcertainly know the demands of
the in-season schedule as wellas anybody.
It's, uh, I wish we could havedone this earlier, but I'm glad
to be here now.
Mike (01:06):
Exactly.
I like that.
That's a good way of think ofit.
But, and congrats on the season,you know, if anyone here
listening to Boston Bruins fans,like, like I am, um, you guys
had a great season, so, youknow, congrats on everything
and, and I'm sure it just makesyou more hungry for next year.
Right.
Kevin (01:20):
Yeah, I think that's it.
The, you know, obviously the,the ending wasn't what we were
looking for, so you know,everybody.
Uh, as, as individuals, I thinkplayers all the way up through
the whole staff, including ourdepartment is just reflecting
back on anything we could havedone differently and, and things
that we can do to put ourselvesin a position to hopefully have
another great season next year.
So, um, it's been a, an activeearly off season for, for us, so
(01:46):
it's been good.
Mike (01:47):
That's great.
I love it.
I love it.
How, how busy are you in the offseason with the players now?
Because, and the reason why Iask that is, you know, with the
Red Sox, so Kevin and I bothworked in, you know, Boston
professional sports, but nobodyin the, with the Red Sox really
lives here.
So they all take off.
Is it different for you guyswith the Bruins?
Kevin (02:04):
It is.
Yeah.
So the, the off season, youknow, we, after the season wraps
up, generally the first coupleweeks, we're pretty busy just.
Putting final touches on ouroff-season program and getting
that out to the players.
And you know, we, we obviouslyhave a lot of the infrastructure
in place for how we want thatoff-season program to look, but
(02:26):
our timeline is a moving target,meaning we don't know how long
we're gonna play.
So we don't know how long ouroff-season is gonna be until the
season ends.
So we have to make someadjustments to.
Um, it obviously the totalduration of the off-season
program, but then as a result ofthat, we have to make some
business decisions on, you know,what's coming out based on the
timeline that we have and howdoes that change based on, uh,
(02:49):
different goals that we have fordifferent players and, and the
different off-season programtracks that we have them in.
So, um, generally the firstcouple weeks after the season
wraps up are, are pretty busygetting that prepared and
finalized and then, Uh, we havea fair amount of players that
have children that are in schoolstill.
So they, even if they go go hometo Canada or wherever they're
(03:14):
from for the bulk of the off offseason, they still stick around
until their kids are outtaschool.
And what will happen a lot oftimes is.
The players that are in thatsituation will start their
off-season training much soonerbecause they're around, um, you
know, helps get them out of thehouse and kill some time during
the day while their kids are inschool.
So, Um, they'll get an earlierjump and then they may take, you
(03:37):
know, a, a week off here andthere throughout the year
instead of kind of front loadingsome rest at the end of the
season and then, um, jumpinginto a program and sticking with
it straight through theoff-season.
So we, uh, we have 10 playersthat are in town now in
Mike (03:53):
Oh
Kevin (03:53):
which is, you know, about half of our roster.
So that's, uh, it's a lot forthis time of year for us, for
Mike (04:00):
Yeah.
I, I, you know, I always thinkit's fun though, right?
You get to work with theplayers, you know, o oftentimes
we call the in-season like acontrolled fall, right?
And we're just, we're justtrying to get through sometimes
right?
And manage their workloads asbest we can.
But like to work with somebodyin the off-season, I think that
excites all of us.
So, you know, hopefully,hopefully that, uh, you'll have
a fun summer this summer.
Kevin (04:20):
it's al It's already had that feeling.
You know, I think the, you'reright, there's, I've heard it
described as like a fog of war.
Uh, you know, concept throughthat during the season, there's
just so many moving parts that,you know, you're, in some
respects, you're, you're tryingto balance surviving the day
with, you know, longer termplanning and making sure that
everything is staying on trackand, and you're accomplishing
(04:43):
what you need to there.
But the off season there's alittle bit less in terms of
competing demands on theplayers.
And, you know, I think it alsois a, an opportunity to interact
with the players with.
Uh, maybe a little bit differentof a stress load going into it.
And then also just anopportunity to really take a
step back in, in, incollaboration with them, get an
(05:04):
idea of what are they hoping toaccomplish during this period?
What's gonna set them up to havethe best start, uh, possible to
the next season?
And then, you know, what can wedo to help navigate that
process?
And, um, you know, the offseason for a lot of years I was
in the private sector.
The off season was kind of our.
That was our playoff run.
You know, that was ouropportunity to make a real
(05:25):
impact and, um, I still reallyenjoy that, that part of the
process now.
Mike (05:30):
For sure, for sure.
Well, you know, you, you, youbring up a lot of good points
just kind of talking about, youknow, the difference between
in-season, off-season and allthese things.
And it, it, it really makes methink, um, even over the course
of my career now, which is, youknow, almost at the 25 year
mark, I've really seen the roleof the strength and conditioning
professionals, the coaches inpro sports really evolve.
(05:53):
Um, and man, 25 years ago, youcould argue a lot of
professional athletes didn'twork out very hard, right?
They didn't, they didn't trainfor performance as much as they
did now.
And we've seen that evolve.
We've seen that, um, you know,that that push to work on
performance enhancement.
Uh, throughout the year as well,but now I think it's evolved
(06:14):
even more.
And I know you're one of thepeople on the cutting edge with
that, but the focus now, notonly just on performance, but
workload management, recoverytechniques, making sure that
they're optimal for, for eachgame and, and getting ready as
best we can.
Um, why don't, why don't westart off with that?
Why don't, why don't you tell usa little bit about your role
with the Bruins in the N H Land, and maybe what a little bit
of your day-to-dayresponsibilities are like, kind
(06:35):
of around those types of thingsand how that's evolved.
Kevin (06:39):
Sure.
Yeah.
So, um, I'm the head performancecoach with the Bruins.
I have, uh, an assistant TimLABAs here that.
Um, works with me on aday-to-day basis and we are, our
role specific to the NHL team,uh, revolves around the design
and implementation of theperformance training plan during
(07:01):
the season.
And then we also oversee all ofour sports science initiatives.
So, uh, we're fortunate to haveCatapult here.
Um, we have a heart ratemonitoring system that we also
use and then, Uh, we have sometechnology that we've integrated
into our training process aswell.
Um, you know, all of thosethings.
I are really designed to providefeedback to us and to the
(07:25):
coaching staff, uh, and to theplayers about, you know, our,
our things that supportperformance, trending in the
right direction.
So, you know, from a training.
Program standpoint.
You know, we have some goals ofmaintaining speed, of
maintaining power, ofmaintaining strength throughout
the season.
Certain players were hoping tomake progress in one or more of
(07:47):
those areas.
Other players were hoping to,uh, minimize losses with higher
workloads.
And, you know, obviously, Um, asa part of that, that the
durability in making sure thatplayers are healthy and
available is, is a huge piece ofit as well.
So, um, you know, all the, thedata that we collect as part of
our training process is reallymeant to inform, you know, what
(08:10):
is the direction that we'retrending so that we have
constant feedback so that if weneed to make changes, whether
that's changing the type ofstress that we're asking the
player to go through from atraining standpoint, um, whether
that's recommending.
Some sort of, uh, recoveryintervention or asking some
questions about whether there'ssome areas to improve in the
(08:32):
recovery standpoint or whetherit's making some recommendations
to, to manipulate some of theONI stresses too.
And, you know, obviously at thislevel we, we play an 82 game
schedule, um, between traveland, and some of the days off
there's.
There's a, uh, relativelyminimal load associated with
(08:53):
practice compared to some otherlevels where, you know, in
college you might be practicingfour, four days a week and then
playing games on two days.
We play an average of three anda half games a week.
There's at least one day off perweek that leaves, you know, one
to two practices available to,to manipulate some stress there.
But, um, you know, again, our,our.
(09:13):
Feedback from Catapult in theheart rate monitoring system
gives us some valuableinformation about where players
are trending in, um, their shshort and long-term preparation.
Meaning, you know, we want themto build up to a certain level
of workload and then we wantthem to sustain that within a
fairy fairly, uh, narrow margin,meaning we will.
(09:39):
Want to, uh, be really clear onif workload is trending higher
and higher, that that isintentional and stay on top of
that because that typically thenis gonna warrant some changes in
the off ice training, stress.
And then als also our intentionswith the recovery
recommendations.
And then the other side of thatcoin is we want to make sure
that if, because of travel, uh,maybe changes in role, um, as
(10:03):
far as what's being asked ofthem in the game.
If players are in and out of thelineup.
That if players are not gettingas much on ice exposure as they
had been previously, then weneed to make some adjustments on
that end too, to make sure thatthey're still staying physically
prepared.
So if their role, you know, ifthey're then asked to return
back to the lineup, um, youknow, I've seen situations where
a player's gone from a healthyscratch to playing first line
(10:25):
minutes the next game.
So we always have that in theback of our head that players
need to be prepared to play arole above what they're being
asked to do now.
So, You know, we kind of use,uh, the on ice workload
monitoring as a way to almostcreate bumper lanes and say, you
know, is this guy getting toohigh?
What do we need to do to makesure that it's not gonna create
(10:48):
excessive fatigue that's gonnaspill over into the days, into
the weeks ahead?
Um, you know, on the other sideis this player maybe not being
exposed to enough total stressor a specific type of stress?
And we need to make sure thatthat's being introduced
strategically into their plan.
So, You know, I, I think as faras how the roles changed, I, uh,
you know, I, I think when youand I first connected, I was
(11:10):
working in the private sectorand, you know, the, so much of
what you're doing with theathletes in that setting
revolves around the trainingprogram itself, right?
You're, you know, maybe runningthrough some assessments,
getting a baseline of where theplayer is at, what their goals
are, designing a trainingprogram to help get them from
(11:31):
point A to point B.
Um, you might have some built-infeedback loops into the training
process as far as, you know,maybe, uh, feedback from
velocity, uh, tracking or, youknow, if you're doing some sort
of vertical jump tracking orjump analysis in your program.
Um, heart rate and certainconditioning tests, all of that
(11:52):
stuff provides valuable feedbackand helps inform the training
process.
But there's so much about whatgoes on outside of that.
Outside of, you know, the hourto two hours that you spend with
them in your facility thatyou're just not aware of.
And, you know, we've had, youknow, I remember y years ago, I,
(12:13):
I was working with a hockeyplayer that, you know,
multi-sport athlete, playedsoccer, played baseball, um,
played ice hockey, wasexceptional in all three areas.
And at one point, I wanna saybetween the three sports, he was
on five teams at one time.
Because as you know, youthsports has, has spiraled
completely out, out of control.
And, you know, there's clubteams, school teams, um, you
(12:35):
know, select tournament teamsand all of the schedules have
now expanded.
So it's not a true off seasonfor any of those sports.
And, you know, if, if that's anextreme, an ex example, but
there are degrees of.
Of stress that all of theathletes that were coming
through our doors in the privatesector were going through that
(12:57):
we don't really have access to.
We don't have the ability tonecessarily manipulate those to
have, you know, an impact onwhat their coaches are asking of
them to do.
And in the team setting, it'sone of the things that excites
me about this environment is,you know, you, you see the
athletes on a daily basis.
You have conversations with thecoaches and the medical staff
(13:18):
and.
Uh, the support staff as far as,you know, any external
resources, chiropracticconsultants, massage therapists,
et cetera, that you, you havethe, uh, ability as a group, as
a team to kind of dial upcertain areas and dial back
certain areas on a day-to-daybasis to make sure that we, you
know, we keep trending in apositive direction over the
(13:40):
course of the season.
So, you know, I, I think the,that's the exciting part.
The challenge is that, There hasbeen just an absolute explosion
of research and of information,uh, a lot of which is
conflicting in all of thedifferent areas that support
player performance.
(14:01):
And, you know, I think nutritionis, is a powerful one.
Um, you know, the expandingumbrella of sports science is a
powerful one.
I think.
Um, you know, even, eventhroughout my career, the.
Discussion around conditioningand what that should look like
in, in the role that, you know,maybe aerobic training plays in
(14:22):
supporting high intensityefforts.
And, you know, the strategiesthat are available to address
aerobic training, um, are, aresignificantly different now
than, you know, I rememberlearning 15 years ago.
So, you know, I, I think it's,it's a fun challenge and I, you
know, it, it.
It certainly what makes the jobexciting is that there's, you
(14:45):
know, no two days are alike.
There's always new informationthat, um, you can learn and,
and, you know, kind of marrythat with your, your process and
your philosophy.
But, um, it changes fast andthere's a lot to, there's a lot
to keep up with.
Mike (15:00):
But if you do, that's what sets yourself apart, and that's
why people like yourself havegotten to these points in their
career is that we are alwaysevolving.
And I, I think you, you justbrought up a ton of great points
of how your profession's changedover the years and how it's
grown.
And I mean, it, it, you know,strength coaches just 20 years
ago, I'm used to.
You know, try to chase theplayers down to, to drag them
(15:20):
into the weight room to get aworkout in.
Now, now it's, it's completelyflipped where you're, they're
almost like they're conciergefor their, their total body,
everything, right?
Recovery, workloads, you know,how does that all play together?
It's, it's, it's really, uh,it's really been fun to see all
this.
Evolve and how much, uh, theimpact has been on the sports.
I, I don't know if any of us arereducing injury rates as much as
(15:43):
we want in pro sports, right.
But hopefully we're getting ourplayers, uh, performing at their
peak more often.
Is that a good way of saying it?
Kevin (15:51):
Yeah, I think so.
I mean, I, I think there's beena lot of attention paid, uh, a
across our profession in theimportance of minimizing injury
risk.
And obviously, you know,minimizing injury risk
throughout the training processis a.
A huge, uh, goal that I think wedo have a lot of control over
(16:12):
minimizing risk within sport.
You know, I, I think, hasgarnered a lot of research
attention because it's adichotomous outcome variable.
The way it's tr traditionallymeasured, you know, you have
some factors, a player gets hurtor they don't get hurt, you
know, what may have contributedto one outcome versus the other.
But, you know, I, I think ifthat's all we're looking at,
(16:33):
we're missing a lot in.
The, the goal of minimizinginjury risk, there's so many
factors that, that come intoplay there.
And I think, Mike, if we'rereally looking at what we're
asking of the players and whatthe players are coming into us,
the state that they're arriving,they have substantially more
(16:58):
wear and tear and volume of workon them than was present.
20 years ago, or 25 years ago.
So it's not really an apples toapples comparison to look at
injury rates now compared toinjury rates 25 years ago and
say, you know, this, we have allthis technology and all these
interventions and assessmentsand, and injury rates aren't
(17:21):
changing.
And if injury rates are stayingthe same, I think you can make
the argument that that's, uh,that's a victory because the
players are.
They're, in most cases, they'rebigger, they're stronger,
they're faster.
They are, uh, in our sport,playing a game that is less
obstructed, so there's moreopportunity for higher speed
(17:45):
collisions.
They've done that intentionallyto improve the playing speed of
the game, but as an outcome ofthat, now there's less slowing
people up to create space forother people.
So you're seeing more high speedcollisions.
Um, so, you know, I, I thinkwhen you look at all, and not to
mention the fact that, you know,there was no year round hockey
participation when, when I firstwas introduced to the game.
(18:08):
Now that is a, it, it's morecommon than it is not.
And for the players that areattempting to do the right thing
and participate in multiplesports, like I referenced
earlier, now you have.
Year round sport participationin multiple sports.
So the total volume of load thatthe players are experiencing is
(18:28):
wildly different now than it wasy, you know, few decades back.
So, you know, it certainlydoesn't mean that that
realization is a justificationto stop trying.
I think we're always examining.
What are potential risk factorsthat we can identify in
individual players?
(18:49):
Um, you know, the, the totalvolume of work at this level
that we're asking them toperform is a big one.
So if we can minimize exposure,Um, beyond points that we feel
may be, uh, the risk rewardscale may be tipped, then that
certainly helps.
You know, I think there's casesfor certain range of motion
testing and, and looking atstrength around certain joints
(19:10):
and, and all of those thingsthat I think have been around
for a while I think have a lotof merit.
But, um, I don't know that justchasing the let's prevent
injuries, um, as an end goal isrealistic.
And I think it also, Y you know,as, as, uh, somebody that works
(19:30):
as a performance coach, I thinklooking at minimizing injury
risk as a primary training goalmakes it easy to overlook the
impact that we can have on, onimproving and maximizing
performance in the athlete,which is, which is, uh, part of
our goal too.
So, you know, there's, there'ssome cases where the
(19:52):
interventions may even be thesame.
Whether we're trying to minimizeinjury risk or positively impact
performance, but the lens thatyou're looking through, those
things are different.
So you know, as an example, whenpeople think of mobility work or
flexibility, range of motion,That is almost always framed as
an injury risk reductionstrategy.
(20:15):
You know, there's a loss ofmobility.
You're putting excessive wearand tear on that and or a
neighboring joint, so we need toopen that up so that it moves
freely.
You know, there's a little bitmore movement variability both
within that joint and thenwithin the system as a whole,
and that may, uh, positivelyimprove the athlete's durability
or resiliency to, to movementstress.
(20:36):
Another way of looking at thatis that athletes need to be able
to get into certain positionswithin their sport to perform a
movement within that sportoptimally.
And if they can't, because theyhave some individual joint
restriction, it's gonnanegatively impact their
performance in, uh, whatevermovement skill is relevant
(20:56):
there.
So, you know, in hockey there'sa couple, there's a couple
basic, you know, you need ankledorsiflexion to get into a
deeper skating position.
In order to maintain a deepskating position and get full
extension of the stride leg, youneed to have a certain amount of
hip abduction.
That's, there's a trade offthere that a lot of people
overlook, I think, where if, ifyou don't have the abduction,
(21:19):
it's gonna force you to adopt ahigher skating position to get
your, your leg through that fullstride.
So, you know, those are areaswhere ankle mobility, uh, and
hip mobility.
R really have a positive impacton skating performance, let
alone the potential impact itcan have on on injury risk
reduction.
Mike (21:40):
That, that's huge.
And, and I think that's whereyour unique experience with
this.
Again, I consider you unique.
I've, I've worn similar shoes asyourself, where you've worked so
many years outside of the gameand then you worked so many
years inside the game.
You, you realize that.
If you just have one of thoseexposures, you probably miss a
little bit.
So I really love yourperspective on some of these
(22:00):
things.
So it it, let's keep going onwhat you just said there because
I love that part.
I, if I'm, if I'm a strengthcoach or even a physical
therapist, but a strength coachat a gym and I'm working with a
bunch of high school players andI don't necessarily specialize
in hockey just yet, but I'msuper interested in it.
Keep going.
Along those lines there, thosetypes of pearls, so like ankle,
dorsey, flexion's, huge hipabduction.
(22:21):
What are the other things thatyou think, uh, uh, you train
uniquely for hockey players thatwe don't do for other sports,
like football, basketball,baseball, those sorts of things.
What are the, some of the thingsthat you focus on?
Kevin (22:33):
Yeah, I think from a range of motion standpoint, you
know, I, I used hip abduction asa, as an example, but I think
really multiplayer hip mobilityis huge for the sport.
You know, you.
There's an interplay betweenankle dorsiflexion and hip
flexion that allows you to adopta low skating position.
Then, you know, like Imentioned, you need a certain
amount of hip abduction tomaintain that deep skating
(22:57):
position.
But then it's, that's linearskating, right, which is, uh, an
incredibly important but verysmall segment of what actually
takes place during the game.
So, you know, there's also.
When you are, uh, when you'restriding out on the Ford skating
stride, there's a degree of hipexternal rotation.
There's a, uh, heavy emphasis onabduction and there's a little
(23:21):
bit of hip extension.
When you push under and acrossover stride, there's hip
abduction and there's internalrotation, right?
So, um, On the leg that'sstriding on the stance leg, your
inflection and externalrotation.
So, you know, I, I think you canlook at different phases of
skating, stride patterns.
And really there's an argumentto be built for maximizing
(23:45):
within, you know, theappropriate physiological
ceiling where you're not pushingthrough passive structures.
Um, maximizing multiplayer hipmobility for hockey players.
The other big one.
It is just thoracic spinerotation.
So you know, obviously thewhatever's going on in the lower
segment, typically the oppositeis happening in the upper body
(24:06):
to counterbalance that movement.
Right?
So, you know, you're stridingout to the, with your right leg,
your upper body is gonna turntowards the left to
counterbalance that.
So, You know, be between theskating stride itself, between,
uh, shooting obviously is, youknow, a analogous to a baseball
swing or a golf swing whereyou're going through a high
velocity rotational movement.
(24:28):
Having free thoracic rotation,uh, is, is huge as far as being
able to open up that motion.
You know, I think another I.
Important expression of that is,you know, there's a lot of
opportunities, uh, where, youknow, a player sends you a pass
and it may not lead you and beon your stick in front of you
where you're gonna have torotate backward.
(24:50):
So your stick blade then becomesan extension of your body to be
able to access more of the areaaround yourself.
So, you know, having some, uh,having good rotation through
your hips, having good rotationthrough your thoracic spine, it
allows you then to.
Use your stick around a widerarc of motion, and whether
(25:11):
that's collecting passes thatmaybe are, uh, not able to be
directly in front of you becauseof the way the, uh, opposition
is lined up.
Whether that's, you know, movinga puck across a wider arc of
motion to evade defenders, um,whether that's using your stick
stick in a defensive strategyto, to help close or eliminate
(25:32):
some space for the other team.
Um, passing lanes, shootinglanes, uh, those sorts of
things.
I think, you know, that'sanother, uh, another example of
where having really goodthoracic rotation can be really
helpful is just expanding yourarc of influence with your, your
stick there.
So those are the big ones.
You know, I, I've brought up theidea of, of adopting lower
(25:54):
skating positions a coupletimes, so general ideas.
The lower you are, the longeryour stride is.
And the longer your stride is,the more your skate blade is
making contact with the ice.
So there's a longer opportunityfor you to put force in the ice
to propel yourself forward.
So there's been, uh, you know,as you can imagine, there's not
(26:17):
a ton of research on, on hockeythat's been published, but there
have been a few studies lookingat the Ford skating stride and,
and there's been a prettyconsistent finding that.
Lower skating positions, uh, aallow players to skate faster.
It's, it's a characteristic thatI think everybody that works in
hockey is, is familiar with.
(26:38):
You know, you go to any youthhockey rink, you're gonna hear
the coach telling people to, tobend their knees or to get
lower.
And that's really the reason whyis that it allows you to
lengthen your stride.
It's more time to put force intothe ice, which then gives you a
larger force impulse to propelyour body forward with each
stride.
So, Um, you know, kind of tyingeverything together.
(26:59):
I think, you know, havingmobility and even just low
position endurance, being ableto maintain those positions are
two things, even at the youthlevel that, that we harp on
pretty early on with kids tomake sure that they're checking
that box.
And, um, you know, you see a lotof kids where, Range of motion
may not be limited, but theyjust don't have the strength to
(27:19):
get into and the, the localmuscular endurance to hold those
positions.
So that's kinda low hangingfruit to address those that can
have a positive impact on speed.
Mike (27:30):
That was awesome.
And I, I gotta take a break in amoment here to say this too, and
I don't, hopefully I, I don'tfloat your ego too much here,
Kevin, but that was an amazinganswer.
And I gotta just say for thelisteners here too, um, isn't
it, Awesome.
When somebody's such an expertin the field, like Kevin is with
hockey right now, that theseanswers and the depth of, of the
(27:51):
information that is just spewingout of Kevin right now is just
absolutely amazing.
Like, I want to hang out withyou for like a whole weekend and
just talk hockey.
Like that's that, that's what Igot out of that question, like.
Uh, I mean, just your level ofdepth into these, these just
shows your, your brain focuseson, on pretty much hockey and
nothing else would be my guesswith you, Kevin.
So this is, this has been reallyfun.
(28:13):
So I apologize.
I had to take that break andpoint that out to the listeners.
Like that's the sort of thingthat, that, that.
Uh, separates experts in my mindis just the, the casual amount
of information that Kevin takesfor granted probably each day
that he just shared with us injust a five minute question.
I, I thought that was amazing.
So thank you for that.
So sorry for that break.
Kevin (28:34):
No, I appreciate that.
I'd probably benefit from havingsome more hobbies, but yeah,
I've spent a, spent a lot oftime thinking about this stuff.
Mike (28:42):
Uh, well, every golfer I know that quit, I mean, every
hockey player I know that quitshockey goes to golf and
dominates.
So you should, uh, you shouldstart looking into that because,
uh, everybody seems to be agreat golfer, but, uh, That, uh,
but again, amazing.
Uh, one other area I wanted tohit on you.
I'll, I'll get back on focus, Iapologize.
But, uh, one other area I wantedto hit on, just like what you
(29:03):
just answered right there istell the listeners a little bit
about the injuries you're seeingin hockey nowadays, because
again, I think everythingevolves over time, right?
And, and the, the injuries thatthey saw probably 20 years ago
and 10 years ago maybe are alittle different than today.
What do you think are some ofthe things that you're seeing
the most in hockey these days?
Kevin (29:21):
Yeah, I mean, I, I think there's, uh, there's a few
things that have probably beenfairly consistent over the years
as far as impact injuries withconcussions with, uh, AC
separations.
Um, those are significantly morecommon than, uh, shoulder
dislocations.
But, you know, let me get thoseevery few years as well.
(29:42):
Um, you know, I think the bigones are, That we certainly put
a high emphasis on preventing,um, our soft tissue injuries
around the hip, whether that'ship flex or strains, adductor
strains.
Um, and then also lowerabdominal tears.
And I, I think the, you know,we, there's been, uh, over the
(30:03):
last 10 years in particular,there's been a lot more
attention paid tofemoroacetabular impingement and
the downstream consequencesthat.
The, you know, for the listenerthat maybe isn't familiar, you
know, femoroacetabularimpingement or f fai is
essentially a bony overgrowth,either of the, you know, the
(30:24):
femoral head neck offset or ofthe acetabular hood, or, which
is probably the most common.
Some, some degree of both.
That limits hip flexion range ofmotion because of the bony
obstruction.
So, You know, there's certainlysome, uh, things that you can do
to help navigate that oncethat's present.
But as a general rule, that's astructural block and that's not
(30:48):
something that you can, youknow, mobility work your way out
of opposed to somebody that mayhave a more functional
limitation, but know.
Uh, F FAI may respond a lot, uh,a lot better or, um, to a larger
extent than somebody that doeshave that structural block.
So, you know, with that, whenyou have players that are
(31:10):
attempting to navigate intothese positions that the game is
requiring of them.
While also working around astructural block like fai, you
can get some maybe excessivemotion at the pubic synthesis,
um, or, you know, the SI areathat can create some issues
around that entire pelvic ring.
(31:31):
So whether that's, you know,sitis, pubic, and you have some
inflammation at that pubicsynthesis joint, whether that's,
you know, SI related issues,whether, um, somebody has, uh,
uh, hip flex or strain or.
Um, you know, adductor, longis,pec tinius, we tend to see a lot
more of those opposed to, uh,the other adductors.
(31:52):
Um, all of those things may berelated to how the athlete is
positioning their pelvis andattempting to navigate around a
structural block.
So, you know, I, I think in, inattempting to address that, we
first need to identify is therea structural block?
Is this something that.
You know, this has, uh, thisbony overgrowth has progressed
(32:13):
to a point where we need tostart looking for strategies to
work around it instead of tryingto improve it, if that makes
sense.
Um, and with that, you know,we've, we obviously are
fortunate in this setting where,you know, we have multiple,
multiple physical therapists.
We have, uh, two chiropracticconsultants.
(32:35):
We have a full and part-timemassage therapist, you know,
within our staff.
Um, you know, we have peoplethat can dry needle, obviously,
uh, boney manipulation, um, youknow, a a lot of the, uh, common
soft tissue schools that peopleare familiar with.
Um, we try to, you know, open uprange of motion using those
(32:57):
strategies, then reinforce itusing, um, you know, whether
corrective exercise is still abad word.
Now, I, I don't know, but.
Um, you know, we try to open uprange of motion and then create
some stability and control withthe new range of motion and just
make sure that we're not pushingthrough ranges that that
(33:17):
individual structure doesn'tallow.
And, you know, I, I think Mike,the injury prevention side of
it, um, goes hand in hand withthe performance side of it too,
which is, you know, half thebattle is for, for players at
this stage that.
Have some accumulated wear andtear.
You know, pretty much everybodyhas some injury history.
(33:38):
The older the player, typicallythe, the more, uh, significant
the list is of things that theyhave gone through, the surgeries
they've had, the injuries thatthey've healed from.
So, you know, half the battle isknowing what not to do with
certain players.
Where, where maybe, uh, theirstructure really doesn't lend
(33:58):
itself to, you know, there's asignificant enough hip
restriction that.
The skating stride, whichrequires extremes of hip range
of motion at high velocities, atrepetitive high volumes.
Maybe that's a real challengefor their structure to, uh, to
accommodate and to perform at.
But they're here, right?
(34:18):
So they've obviously, they'vefound a way to be successful
enough to, to work aroundwhatever limitations they have.
So a significant part of ourjob.
Is to make sure that we're notthen adding excessive negative
stress that's going to increasethe, uh, demand that they need
to recover from in some of theseareas.
(34:39):
So, you know, there might be amore conservative exercise or a,
a more narrow exercise selectionfor certain players, where we're
really focusing on, you know, weknow these patterns are safe.
We know that the player respondswell to these things.
So we can really focus ourloading strategies on these few
patterns where, you know, ayounger player that doesn't have
(35:02):
that same wear and tear, maybedoesn't have structural
limitations, they're gonna havea, a larger bandwidth to
introduce variability in theexercise selection, uh, stage of
the process.
So, um, you know, hopefully allthat makes sense, but injuries,
heads, shoulders, hips, andthen, The other one is, is, uh,
(35:23):
contact injuries to the knee, towhich, you know, we, we having
strong hips, um, y you know,making players aware from an
anticipation standpoint.
I think that's probably anoverlooked part of it.
And, and frankly, it's a hardthing to, to implement
regardless of who that messageis coming from, whether it's us,
(35:44):
the medical staff, coachingstaff, skills coaches.
Um, the more a player cananticipate contact without it
distracting from them doingtheir job and, and.
Um, you know what, whatever thatis, moving the puck or just
being aware that a player'sapproaching them and that
they're likely to, uh, withstandsome contact.
(36:06):
The, the more aware they are andthe better they prepare, prepare
for that.
I think that that has asignificant impact on how
they're absorbing that contact,which can have an impact on
head, shoulder and kneeinjuries, but it's a fast game,
um, and there's a lot of chaoson the ice.
So, you know, that's kind ofthe.
One of the occupational hazardsof the sport is that
(36:27):
occasionally you get some kneeinjuries as well.
Mike (36:30):
For sure, for sure.
H h how many, how many people,how many young players do you
see entering the game now withwell established FAI symptoms?
Is, is that something that'sgrowing?
Are we, are we, are weidentifying asymptomatic ones
earlier now?
Like how has that evolved justin your short career so far,
(36:51):
like in the last 10 years or so?
Kevin (36:54):
Y Yeah, there was a, there was a study, I think it
was published in 2013 fromPhilippine's group out in
Colorado.
And, and they did a, uh, theyperformed, you know, IM imaging
on the hips of youth hockeyplayers.
And essentially what they foundwas that, you know, when players
are roughly in the, you know,13, 14 year old age group, so,
(37:18):
you know, think eighth, ninthgraders that.
About a third of them alreadyhad a hip structure that would
allow them to be diagnosed withf a I.
Um, there was a slightly higherpercentage, if I'm remembering
correctly, I think closer to 40%that had labral tears at that
age.
And then you go up another fewyears, so 15, 16 year olds, and
(37:41):
those numbers both jumped toabout 67%.
About two-thirds of the playershad diagnosable f A I and hip
labral tears.
Next age group up, you know,which is essentially the end of
high school by the time theseplayers are entering.
Junior, you know, on the earlierend of college, it was 93% that
had diagnosable f a i, and Ibelieve it was a hundred percent
(38:03):
that had hip labral tears.
So, you know, I, I think the,there's a couple important
messages there.
One is that, The significant,uh, majority of those
populations were asymptomatic.
So, you know, I think this isanother example in, in, you
know, there's several looking atimages of different joints and
(38:23):
different populations, but I.
Um, you, you can't just rely onthe findings of images to
dictate the, the path forward.
You know, if you have all thesepositive findings of, of fai and
labral tears and asymptomaticplayers, and if a player has
symptoms, then that's certainlya piece of the puzzle.
I think it's helpful to knowwhat might be going on, you
(38:45):
know, take a peek under the hoodand see structurally what may be
contributing.
But at the same time, I thinkyou have to marry those imaging
findings with.
Your movement assessments withthe onset of symptoms of, uh,
what type of movement patterns,maybe provoke symptoms and, and
how they respond to somedifferent soft tissue
modalities, and then exerciseinterventions as well.
(39:08):
So that's, that's part of it, isthat for youth players that
maybe don't have the same volumeof, you know, they're, they're
not hearing, uh, about as manyplayers getting x-rays and MRIs
on their hips and.
They don't know that that's asprevalent of a finding as it is.
They might be scared if theyhear that they have a hip label
(39:29):
tear and think like, I need toget this operated on as fast as
possible.
Um, you know, I, I think there'sreason to give yourself pause
and to, to maybe explore someother options before just
defaulting to surgery.
So that's one part of it.
I think from, from myperspective, uh, I now enter a
(39:50):
relationship with an athlete,assuming that they have some
stage of structural limitationat the hip, and likely a hip
labral tear until they prove tome otherwise.
So
Mike (40:03):
Right.
Isn't that, isn't that crazy?
Kevin (40:05):
case, I think, early on, starting in my career where, you
know, you assume health until,until something, uh, until some
information comes to light thatpoints you in a different
direction.
I think now, I'm assuming thatthere are limitations in
assuming that there's probablysome underlying damage to the
hip labrum and some otherstructures around the hip un
(40:26):
until we have enough water underthe bridge of working with that
athlete and knowing that theyrespond favorably to, to certain
strategies that they almost testtheir way into, you know, deeper
ranges of motion or, you know,some different exercises that I
might steer clear from as ageneral rule, general rule for
the population.
Mike (40:48):
Yeah, I great insight.
And I can tell you as a, uh,father of a, uh, 10 year old
girl that's been playing, uh,quite a bit of hockey lately,
uh, it's getting worse.
It's gonna get worse.
She skates.
She's getting all year nowbecause she's, you know, she's
learning.
So she's trying to get throughthese things.
And what we're seeing at theyouth level with some of these
sports is, is just crazy.
(41:08):
I, I, I can only imagine thefuture, but, um, it sounds like
I need to work on her Dorseyflexion.
I need to work on her hipabduction, multi-directional
stop.
So this whole episode was purelyfor my daughter.
So thank you, Kevin.
I appreciate that.
Kevin (41:22):
Yeah.
You know, and it's, uh, so backin the private sector, we used
to work with a lot of youthhockey programs and youth soccer
programs and.
You know, as, uh, when we wouldhave these teams that would come
in, we would take them through abasic screening process.
And one of the things that welooked at was ankle
dorsiflexion.
And, you know, I was reallyquick, uh, tangent to that
(41:46):
story.
I, uh, my, my son startedplaying soccer, um, last fall.
And, you know, I, I got a realkick out of.
You know, the first coupleminutes they had all the, my,
he's five at the time, so, um,not quite at the same stage that
your daughter is at, but I got areal kick.
They started practice by likelining all the kids up and
stretching and.
(42:07):
You know, it's like I, I, I sawmy son earlier that day, put his
foot behind his head.
So, you know, I kind of thoughtit was funny.
This population probably don'tneed to set him up and, and go
through stretching as a way toprepare them.
You can probably just get himmoving and that'll do the trick
for him.
But that assumption, uh,disappears faster than I
(42:27):
would've thought.
And with some of those youth,Hockey and soccer teams, we
would see with 11, 12, 13 yearolds, boys and girls, that there
were significant dorsiflexionlimitations in both.
Meaning, you know, if you dothat traditional tests with the,
uh, the FMS kid and you're justmeasuring dorsiflexion in
(42:50):
inches, we had several playersthat could not clear their big
toe, meaning they had, you know,zero inches using that test of
dorsiflexion.
So, Um, you know, I, I thinkthe, the assumption that because
they're kids and they tend to beflexible because of the amount
of volume of, of sport thatthey're going through at younger
(43:11):
ages, um, I think footwear hasa, plays a big role in this as
well.
But, um, dorsa flexion was oneof those things that, uh,
started to.
Become restricted significantlyearlier in the developmental
process than I would've assumedhad we not gone through that
process.
So, um, Doris selection would beone to at least check with your
(43:32):
daughter.
Mike (43:34):
Interesting.
I love it.
Awesome.
Well, Kevin, this is amazing.
I, I feel like we could talkfor, for hours, but, uh, before
we end, I wanna let you, uh,kind of share some things so we
can learn a little bit.
About you, but, uh, littlesequence at the end called the
high five.
Five quick questions, five quickanswers, just to learn a little
bit about your mind, your growthmindset, that sort of thing.
But first question, what are youcurrently working on for your
(43:56):
own continuing education andprofessional development?
What are you doing right now?
Kevin (44:01):
Yeah, that's a good question.
I, uh, my ConEd tends to go incycles.
I, I tend to get fixated on a,an area and, um, you know,
whether that's a new book or, orresearch articles on a topic, I,
you know, tend to get fixated ona topic, digest as much
information as I can on that.
And then, Cycle back throughsomething that maybe I had spent
(44:23):
a lot of time on in years pastand feel like I, I need to
review, um, or freshen up on abit.
And I, uh, you know, the lastfew weeks I went through Peter
Atias new book, outlive, andthought that that was just an
outstanding deep dive into sometopics that are, are very
important from a public healthstandpoint.
(44:44):
Um, you know, obviously as noneof us get younger, right?
So.
Um, I finished that book andthen immediately restarted that
to reread it.
And, uh, looking forward togoing through that a second
time.
But I, I, uh, also pulled out myold t p I manual.
Um, there's a book, uh, calledMaking Numbers Count, I think by
(45:06):
Chip and Dan Heath.
Um, and then I have, uh, acouple books on sleep that I'm,
I'm rereading as well right now.
So those are all some thingsthat I had, uh, g gone through
in years past that I'm justpulling back off the shelf and
gonna give myself a little bitof a refresher here.
Mike (45:22):
Awesome.
What is one thing you'verecently changed your mind
about?
Kevin (45:28):
Yeah, it's a good question.
I, I, uh, I, I think.
Yeah, no, I mean, I, I, I'mconstantly changing my mind
about things.
I, you know, I, I think the, uh,you know, we talked a little bit
about the technology and thesports science area as a whole,
and, you know, when I firststarted to recognize the
importance of that area of, ofwithin sport workload
(45:52):
monitoring, um, in particular,I, I really was going into it
with.
The assumption and, and maybethe hope that y you could have a
very prescriptive, targetedapproach of, you know, we need
to hit these numbers and that'sgoing to, you know, quote
unquote guarantee us theseoutcomes.
And y you know, I, I think asI've spent more time with that
(46:16):
data and understanding where itfits within the.
You know, the, the globalenvironment of team sport,
particularly at this level.
You know, I, I think it's, it'sless of a sniper rifle approach
and more of a, you know, can,like I had mentioned earlier,
can we put some bumper lanes on,on excessive and insufficient
(46:38):
stress on the player?
And, you know, I think about allof those, all of the technology,
and I think I mentioned thisearlier as well as, Just
creating feedback loops.
So no matter what the number is,no matter what the source of
that feedback is, you know, didwe, did we expect the response,
the feedback that we got?
If we didn't expect it, can weexplain it?
(47:01):
So you know, maybe we're testingvertical jump and we just came
off of a long road trip anddidn't get in until 4:00 AM
players had a day off.
The next day we come in andvertical jump numbers are down.
Well, is it because theircapacity has been reduced?
Or is it because they're stillacclimating to a time zone
change and the, uh, circadianshift that results from staying
(47:26):
up until four or 5:00 AM in themorning as a result of the
travel.
So, you know, did we expect it?
Can we explain it?
And then do we need tointervene?
And if we do need to intervene,who's doing the intervening?
And then what is our feedbackfor whether that was a positive
intervention?
So, you know, I, I think, um,my.
My mentality on how, uh, sportscience should inform the
(47:50):
process has evolved quite a bitover recent years.
Mike (47:55):
That's awesome.
That's awesome.
And, and that's, that's how yougrow in that field.
It's.
Through experience.
Right.
So I, I, I think that's a, agreat way of saying it.
Um, next question is, and I'mgonna customize this a little
bit for you a little bit, butwhat is your best piece of
advice for a, a student or anearly career professional that
wants to get into pro hockey at,what would you tell them?
Kevin (48:15):
Yeah, I mean, I, I think the first question I would ask
is, why do you want to get intopro hockey?
You know, I think there's a.
An assumption that, uh, thatworking at this level is a
reflection on, you know, youbeing the best because you're
working with the best players.
And, you know, I I, I have foundworking at this level to be
(48:37):
incredibly rewarding.
It's been, uh, a, a funchallenge for a lot of the
reasons we talked about before,but I, I also would say in the
same breath that I have atremendous amount of respect for
the coaches that.
Can get a 12 year old that hasnot been exposed to formal
training and is going throughthat stage of their development,
(48:59):
where their movement skills andcoordination are really
challenging if a coach can getthem to do things correctly.
I, I think it's every bit asmuch of a feather in their cap
as far as their, their coachingabilities as it is to work with
players at this level.
I think, um, you know, there's.
There's a, a significant needfor great coaches working at the
(49:23):
youth levels, working at, um,division three collegiate
levels.
Uh, certainly working in highschools around the country that,
you know, I would, I wouldencourage people to, to maybe
hold those positions in a higherregard than, uh, you know, I
think most people just.
Want to get to pro sports asfast as possible and, and maybe
(49:44):
overlooking some reallyexceptional opportunities to
make an impact at youth levels.
So that said, um, you know, Ithink to, to earn an opportunity
to interview for a position atany elite level of sport,
whether that's, uh, you know, aquote unquote big time division
(50:05):
one program, whether it's somelevel of professional sport.
You need to have a wide range offoundational knowledge.
You need to have an expansiveand diverse, uh, set of, of
applied experiences.
Um, you need to be well versedin different areas of.
(50:27):
Your education and yourexperience that support
performance?
I don't think it's enough now.
The way that the profession hasevolved to just be a good kind
of traditional strength andconditioning coach, I think you
have to have some supportingknowledge in other areas,
whether that's nutrition,whether that's, um, you know,
the, the familiarity with, uh,rehab strategies and some
(50:52):
comfort in working alongsiderehab professionals.
Um, whether that's more on the.
Uh, the technology side, evendata organization analysis,
presentation.
Um, you know, I, I think thatthose supporting skill sets are
incredibly important, and thatmay be, is a long-winded way of
(51:12):
saying you need to have somesort of valuable and rare
skillset that sets you apartfrom the other people that might
be putting in for those jobs.
And, you know, I, I think, uh,It's important to recognize
that, you know, j jobs at thislevel aren't, they're not posted
on job boards typically for, youknow, people all over the world
(51:34):
to apply for.
Typically people are, and thisis true, you know, I, I was
looking for an assistant acouple years ago, and I have a
group of people that I have atremendous amount of respect for
and trust in, and that was myfirst step in looking to
acquire.
An assistant and to hire for ourAHL organization as well is I'm
(51:56):
gonna look for recommendationsfrom people that I trust.
So one of the best ways, I thinkto develop your, your
experiences and to also maybe beput on the list of candidates
that are considered for these isto find great mentors and to.
(52:17):
Volunteer intern work, uh, youknow, whatever you can do to
provide some value back to thoseindividuals.
Just do that as early aspossible and to continue to work
and expand under the mentorshipof somebody that.
Has either worked in theposition that you are hoping to
(52:38):
one day have an opportunity tointerview for, um, or is at a
minimum, uh, you know, on thelist of people that are being
asked if they have anyrecommendations for people for
those positions.
And there's a lot of thosepeople out there.
Um, and I think people arereally willing to help mentor
(52:59):
younger professionals that, thatare.
In it for the right reasons.
And, um, you know, so that,that, that's what I would say.
I think, I think there's a lotof value in positions at other
levels that, uh, is gettingoverlooked and they're probably
underserved right now, you know,at the same time, um, I, if
people are really set onacquiring a position at higher
(53:22):
levels of sport, I, you know, Ithink you have to, it takes a
lot of work and it, it.
Takes purposeful work to expandwhat you're able to offer to an
organization, and it's not justgetting good grades in school.
I think that is helpful,obviously, but it, it's really
the, the breadth of experiencesand your ability to work within
(53:45):
a team in this setting.
Um, that's really the mostimportant.
Mike (53:50):
That's awesome and I don't think that advice will ever get
old, so this will be a goodepisode to refer back to.
So that was awesome.
Uh, what's coming up next foryou, Kevin?
Kevin (53:59):
Uh, that's a great question.
You know, I think, uh, over thelast couple months, uh, a
colleague of mine, Jesh Pateland I have been editors for a
new book that's coming out fromthe n Sca and Human Kinetics
called Strength Training forHockey.
So, Um, we're in the finalstages of that, so, uh, that's
been a fun project tocollaborate with, with b and,
(54:19):
and the, uh, the authors of theindividual chapters on.
I think, um, for me personally,I'm, I am trying to make a more
purposeful effort to, uh, sharecontent through social media,
primarily on Instagram and, andto get my website and newsletter
back active.
(54:40):
Um, I've taken a little bit of ahiatus as I've.
You know, transitioned into thepro sport world and, uh, that
has coincided with, uh, ushaving two kids at home now.
So,
Mike (54:50):
Sure.
Kevin (54:51):
know, we're starting to get our, our head above water
here on the home front as well.
So, um, hoping to get a littlebit more active on those fronts
too, and, and continue to shareinformation and.
Um, just do what I can to, togive back to people that are
interested, uh, in, in learningon those avenues.
So, um, that's kind of next stepfor me.
And then where things go fromthere, we will, uh, we'll see,
(55:13):
just kind of taking things oneday at a time.
Mike (55:15):
That's awesome.
Congrats on the book.
I look forward to seeing it.
That that'd be great.
Um, so where can people findmore about you then?
What's, what's a good spot?
I know I've, I've followed yourblog for some time.
I don't know how much you'vekept up with that, but obviously
you've done a bunch of stuffover the years, but where can
people find you?
Kevin (55:32):
Yeah, so my website is just kevin neal.com.
Um, you know, I, like I justmentioned, I.
The new content is, uh, notquite as frequent on that site
as it had been in the past, butI, I have something along the
lines of, of over 500 articles,uh, that are already on that
site.
So, um, primarily related to, tohockey and long-term athletic
(55:56):
development, the preparation ofthe hockey athlete across the,
the different stages.
So, Um, if those are areas thatare of interest, there's a lot
of free content on the site thatpeople can check out.
Uh, my Instagram account, I'mjust at Kevin Yield, uh, pretty
easy to find there.
But that's the other area too,where, um, I'm, I'm putting out
(56:17):
more, uh, new content asregularly as I can, uh, squeeze
into the schedule here.
So those are the two main spots.
Mike (56:25):
Awesome.
Well, thanks again for takingtime outta your busy schedule to
do this.
I know there's never a, an easytime for you to, to break free
and do this sort of thing, so,uh, amazing episode.
Tons of depth to your knowledgethat you shared with us today.
I, I can't thank you enough, sothanks for coming on the show,
Kev.
Kevin (56:40):
Cool.
Thanks Mike.
Appreciate you having me.
On this episode of the sportsphysical therapy podcast, I'm
joined by Kevin Nield.
Kevin is the head performancecoach of the Boston Bruins NHL
team, and an expert in workingwith hockey players.
In this episode, we talk abouthis job with the Bruins.
The evolution of strengthcoaches in the NHL, and some of
the unique considerations ofworking with hockey players.
Mike (00:29):
Hey, Kevin, thanks so much for joining me on the podcast
today.
How's everything going?
Kevin (00:33):
Things are going great, Mike, I appreciate you having
me.
Mike (00:36):
Yeah, we've um, uh, we've been talking for months now,
right Kev, about trying to getyou on and obviously it's hard
when you're working in prosports and you know, you're in
season, you're in the grind.
I know it's hard.
So, uh, you know, it's, it'sexciting to be able to get, to
have a chance to speak with youand, and talk a little bit about
your experiences.
So again, thank you for comingon the show.
Kevin (00:56):
No, it's my pleasure.
I, uh, you, you know, youcertainly know the demands of
the in-season schedule as wellas anybody.
It's, uh, I wish we could havedone this earlier, but I'm glad
to be here now.
Mike (01:06):
Exactly.
I like that.
That's a good way of think ofit.
But, and congrats on the season,you know, if anyone here
listening to Boston Bruins fans,like, like I am, um, you guys
had a great season, so, youknow, congrats on everything
and, and I'm sure it just makesyou more hungry for next year.
Right.
Kevin (01:20):
Yeah, I think that's it.
The, you know, obviously the,the ending wasn't what we were
looking for, so you know,everybody.
Uh, as, as individuals, I thinkplayers all the way up through
the whole staff, including ourdepartment is just reflecting
back on anything we could havedone differently and, and things
that we can do to put ourselvesin a position to hopefully have
another great season next year.
So, um, it's been a, an activeearly off season for, for us, so
(01:46):
it's been good.
Mike (01:47):
That's great.
I love it.
I love it.
How, how busy are you in the offseason with the players now?
Because, and the reason why Iask that is, you know, with the
Red Sox, so Kevin and I bothworked in, you know, Boston
professional sports, but nobodyin the, with the Red Sox really
lives here.
So they all take off.
Is it different for you guyswith the Bruins?
Kevin (02:04):
It is.
Yeah.
So the, the off season, youknow, we, after the season wraps
up, generally the first coupleweeks, we're pretty busy just.
Putting final touches on ouroff-season program and getting
that out to the players.
And you know, we, we obviouslyhave a lot of the infrastructure
in place for how we want thatoff-season program to look, but
(02:26):
our timeline is a moving target,meaning we don't know how long
we're gonna play.
So we don't know how long ouroff-season is gonna be until the
season ends.
So we have to make someadjustments to.
Um, it obviously the totalduration of the off-season
program, but then as a result ofthat, we have to make some
business decisions on, you know,what's coming out based on the
timeline that we have and howdoes that change based on, uh,
(02:49):
different goals that we have fordifferent players and, and the
different off-season programtracks that we have them in.
So, um, generally the firstcouple weeks after the season
wraps up are, are pretty busygetting that prepared and
finalized and then, Uh, we havea fair amount of players that
have children that are in schoolstill.
So they, even if they go go hometo Canada or wherever they're
(03:14):
from for the bulk of the off offseason, they still stick around
until their kids are outtaschool.
And what will happen a lot oftimes is.
The players that are in thatsituation will start their
off-season training much soonerbecause they're around, um, you
know, helps get them out of thehouse and kill some time during
the day while their kids are inschool.
So, Um, they'll get an earlierjump and then they may take, you
(03:37):
know, a, a week off here andthere throughout the year
instead of kind of front loadingsome rest at the end of the
season and then, um, jumpinginto a program and sticking with
it straight through theoff-season.
So we, uh, we have 10 playersthat are in town now in
Mike (03:53):
Oh
Kevin (03:53):
which is, you know, about half of our roster.
So that's, uh, it's a lot forthis time of year for us, for
Mike (04:00):
Yeah.
I, I, you know, I always thinkit's fun though, right?
You get to work with theplayers, you know, o oftentimes
we call the in-season like acontrolled fall, right?
And we're just, we're justtrying to get through sometimes
right?
And manage their workloads asbest we can.
But like to work with somebodyin the off-season, I think that
excites all of us.
So, you know, hopefully,hopefully that, uh, you'll have
a fun summer this summer.
Kevin (04:20):
it's al It's already had that feeling.
You know, I think the, you'reright, there's, I've heard it
described as like a fog of war.
Uh, you know, concept throughthat during the season, there's
just so many moving parts that,you know, you're, in some
respects, you're, you're tryingto balance surviving the day
with, you know, longer termplanning and making sure that
everything is staying on trackand, and you're accomplishing
(04:43):
what you need to there.
But the off season there's alittle bit less in terms of
competing demands on theplayers.
And, you know, I think it alsois a, an opportunity to interact
with the players with.
Uh, maybe a little bit differentof a stress load going into it.
And then also just anopportunity to really take a
step back in, in, incollaboration with them, get an
(05:04):
idea of what are they hoping toaccomplish during this period?
What's gonna set them up to havethe best start, uh, possible to
the next season?
And then, you know, what can wedo to help navigate that
process?
And, um, you know, the offseason for a lot of years I was
in the private sector.
The off season was kind of our.
That was our playoff run.
You know, that was ouropportunity to make a real
(05:25):
impact and, um, I still reallyenjoy that, that part of the
process now.
Mike (05:30):
For sure, for sure.
Well, you know, you, you, youbring up a lot of good points
just kind of talking about, youknow, the difference between
in-season, off-season and allthese things.
And it, it, it really makes methink, um, even over the course
of my career now, which is, youknow, almost at the 25 year
mark, I've really seen the roleof the strength and conditioning
professionals, the coaches inpro sports really evolve.
(05:53):
Um, and man, 25 years ago, youcould argue a lot of
professional athletes didn'twork out very hard, right?
They didn't, they didn't trainfor performance as much as they
did now.
And we've seen that evolve.
We've seen that, um, you know,that that push to work on
performance enhancement.
Uh, throughout the year as well,but now I think it's evolved
(06:14):
even more.
And I know you're one of thepeople on the cutting edge with
that, but the focus now, notonly just on performance, but
workload management, recoverytechniques, making sure that
they're optimal for, for eachgame and, and getting ready as
best we can.
Um, why don't, why don't westart off with that?
Why don't, why don't you tell usa little bit about your role
with the Bruins in the N H Land, and maybe what a little bit
of your day-to-dayresponsibilities are like, kind
(06:35):
of around those types of thingsand how that's evolved.
Kevin (06:39):
Sure.
Yeah.
So, um, I'm the head performancecoach with the Bruins.
I have, uh, an assistant TimLABAs here that.
Um, works with me on aday-to-day basis and we are, our
role specific to the NHL team,uh, revolves around the design
and implementation of theperformance training plan during
(07:01):
the season.
And then we also oversee all ofour sports science initiatives.
So, uh, we're fortunate to haveCatapult here.
Um, we have a heart ratemonitoring system that we also
use and then, Uh, we have sometechnology that we've integrated
into our training process aswell.
Um, you know, all of thosethings.
I are really designed to providefeedback to us and to the
(07:25):
coaching staff, uh, and to theplayers about, you know, our,
our things that supportperformance, trending in the
right direction.
So, you know, from a training.
Program standpoint.
You know, we have some goals ofmaintaining speed, of
maintaining power, ofmaintaining strength throughout
the season.
Certain players were hoping tomake progress in one or more of
(07:47):
those areas.
Other players were hoping to,uh, minimize losses with higher
workloads.
And, you know, obviously, Um, asa part of that, that the
durability in making sure thatplayers are healthy and
available is, is a huge piece ofit as well.
So, um, you know, all the, thedata that we collect as part of
our training process is reallymeant to inform, you know, what
(08:10):
is the direction that we'retrending so that we have
constant feedback so that if weneed to make changes, whether
that's changing the type ofstress that we're asking the
player to go through from atraining standpoint, um, whether
that's recommending.
Some sort of, uh, recoveryintervention or asking some
questions about whether there'ssome areas to improve in the
(08:32):
recovery standpoint or whetherit's making some recommendations
to, to manipulate some of theONI stresses too.
And, you know, obviously at thislevel we, we play an 82 game
schedule, um, between traveland, and some of the days off
there's.
There's a, uh, relativelyminimal load associated with
(08:53):
practice compared to some otherlevels where, you know, in
college you might be practicingfour, four days a week and then
playing games on two days.
We play an average of three anda half games a week.
There's at least one day off perweek that leaves, you know, one
to two practices available to,to manipulate some stress there.
But, um, you know, again, our,our.
(09:13):
Feedback from Catapult in theheart rate monitoring system
gives us some valuableinformation about where players
are trending in, um, their shshort and long-term preparation.
Meaning, you know, we want themto build up to a certain level
of workload and then we wantthem to sustain that within a
fairy fairly, uh, narrow margin,meaning we will.
(09:39):
Want to, uh, be really clear onif workload is trending higher
and higher, that that isintentional and stay on top of
that because that typically thenis gonna warrant some changes in
the off ice training, stress.
And then als also our intentionswith the recovery
recommendations.
And then the other side of thatcoin is we want to make sure
that if, because of travel, uh,maybe changes in role, um, as
(10:03):
far as what's being asked ofthem in the game.
If players are in and out of thelineup.
That if players are not gettingas much on ice exposure as they
had been previously, then weneed to make some adjustments on
that end too, to make sure thatthey're still staying physically
prepared.
So if their role, you know, ifthey're then asked to return
back to the lineup, um, youknow, I've seen situations where
a player's gone from a healthyscratch to playing first line
(10:25):
minutes the next game.
So we always have that in theback of our head that players
need to be prepared to play arole above what they're being
asked to do now.
So, You know, we kind of use,uh, the on ice workload
monitoring as a way to almostcreate bumper lanes and say, you
know, is this guy getting toohigh?
What do we need to do to makesure that it's not gonna create
(10:48):
excessive fatigue that's gonnaspill over into the days, into
the weeks ahead?
Um, you know, on the other sideis this player maybe not being
exposed to enough total stressor a specific type of stress?
And we need to make sure thatthat's being introduced
strategically into their plan.
So, You know, I, I think as faras how the roles changed, I, uh,
you know, I, I think when youand I first connected, I was
(11:10):
working in the private sectorand, you know, the, so much of
what you're doing with theathletes in that setting
revolves around the trainingprogram itself, right?
You're, you know, maybe runningthrough some assessments,
getting a baseline of where theplayer is at, what their goals
are, designing a trainingprogram to help get them from
(11:31):
point A to point B.
Um, you might have some built-infeedback loops into the training
process as far as, you know,maybe, uh, feedback from
velocity, uh, tracking or, youknow, if you're doing some sort
of vertical jump tracking orjump analysis in your program.
Um, heart rate and certainconditioning tests, all of that
(11:52):
stuff provides valuable feedbackand helps inform the training
process.
But there's so much about whatgoes on outside of that.
Outside of, you know, the hourto two hours that you spend with
them in your facility thatyou're just not aware of.
And, you know, we've had, youknow, I remember y years ago, I,
(12:13):
I was working with a hockeyplayer that, you know,
multi-sport athlete, playedsoccer, played baseball, um,
played ice hockey, wasexceptional in all three areas.
And at one point, I wanna saybetween the three sports, he was
on five teams at one time.
Because as you know, youthsports has, has spiraled
completely out, out of control.
And, you know, there's clubteams, school teams, um, you
(12:35):
know, select tournament teamsand all of the schedules have
now expanded.
So it's not a true off seasonfor any of those sports.
And, you know, if, if that's anextreme, an ex example, but
there are degrees of.
Of stress that all of theathletes that were coming
through our doors in the privatesector were going through that
(12:57):
we don't really have access to.
We don't have the ability tonecessarily manipulate those to
have, you know, an impact onwhat their coaches are asking of
them to do.
And in the team setting, it'sone of the things that excites
me about this environment is,you know, you, you see the
athletes on a daily basis.
You have conversations with thecoaches and the medical staff
(13:18):
and.
Uh, the support staff as far as,you know, any external
resources, chiropracticconsultants, massage therapists,
et cetera, that you, you havethe, uh, ability as a group, as
a team to kind of dial upcertain areas and dial back
certain areas on a day-to-daybasis to make sure that we, you
know, we keep trending in apositive direction over the
(13:40):
course of the season.
So, you know, I, I think the,that's the exciting part.
The challenge is that, There hasbeen just an absolute explosion
of research and of information,uh, a lot of which is
conflicting in all of thedifferent areas that support
player performance.
(14:01):
And, you know, I think nutritionis, is a powerful one.
Um, you know, the expandingumbrella of sports science is a
powerful one.
I think.
Um, you know, even, eventhroughout my career, the.
Discussion around conditioningand what that should look like
in, in the role that, you know,maybe aerobic training plays in
(14:22):
supporting high intensityefforts.
And, you know, the strategiesthat are available to address
aerobic training, um, are, aresignificantly different now
than, you know, I rememberlearning 15 years ago.
So, you know, I, I think it's,it's a fun challenge and I, you
know, it, it.
It certainly what makes the jobexciting is that there's, you
(14:45):
know, no two days are alike.
There's always new informationthat, um, you can learn and,
and, you know, kind of marrythat with your, your process and
your philosophy.
But, um, it changes fast andthere's a lot to, there's a lot
to keep up with.
Mike (15:00):
But if you do, that's what sets yourself apart, and that's
why people like yourself havegotten to these points in their
career is that we are alwaysevolving.
And I, I think you, you justbrought up a ton of great points
of how your profession's changedover the years and how it's
grown.
And I mean, it, it, you know,strength coaches just 20 years
ago, I'm used to.
You know, try to chase theplayers down to, to drag them
(15:20):
into the weight room to get aworkout in.
Now, now it's, it's completelyflipped where you're, they're
almost like they're conciergefor their, their total body,
everything, right?
Recovery, workloads, you know,how does that all play together?
It's, it's, it's really, uh,it's really been fun to see all
this.
Evolve and how much, uh, theimpact has been on the sports.
I, I don't know if any of us arereducing injury rates as much as
(15:43):
we want in pro sports, right.
But hopefully we're getting ourplayers, uh, performing at their
peak more often.
Is that a good way of saying it?
Kevin (15:51):
Yeah, I think so.
I mean, I, I think there's beena lot of attention paid, uh, a
across our profession in theimportance of minimizing injury
risk.
And obviously, you know,minimizing injury risk
throughout the training processis a.
A huge, uh, goal that I think wedo have a lot of control over
(16:12):
minimizing risk within sport.
You know, I, I think, hasgarnered a lot of research
attention because it's adichotomous outcome variable.
The way it's tr traditionallymeasured, you know, you have
some factors, a player gets hurtor they don't get hurt, you
know, what may have contributedto one outcome versus the other.
But, you know, I, I think ifthat's all we're looking at,
(16:33):
we're missing a lot in.
The, the goal of minimizinginjury risk, there's so many
factors that, that come intoplay there.
And I think, Mike, if we'rereally looking at what we're
asking of the players and whatthe players are coming into us,
the state that they're arriving,they have substantially more
(16:58):
wear and tear and volume of workon them than was present.
20 years ago, or 25 years ago.
So it's not really an apples toapples comparison to look at
injury rates now compared toinjury rates 25 years ago and
say, you know, this, we have allthis technology and all these
interventions and assessmentsand, and injury rates aren't
(17:21):
changing.
And if injury rates are stayingthe same, I think you can make
the argument that that's, uh,that's a victory because the
players are.
They're, in most cases, they'rebigger, they're stronger,
they're faster.
They are, uh, in our sport,playing a game that is less
obstructed, so there's moreopportunity for higher speed
(17:45):
collisions.
They've done that intentionallyto improve the playing speed of
the game, but as an outcome ofthat, now there's less slowing
people up to create space forother people.
So you're seeing more high speedcollisions.
Um, so, you know, I, I thinkwhen you look at all, and not to
mention the fact that, you know,there was no year round hockey
participation when, when I firstwas introduced to the game.
(18:08):
Now that is a, it, it's morecommon than it is not.
And for the players that areattempting to do the right thing
and participate in multiplesports, like I referenced
earlier, now you have.
Year round sport participationin multiple sports.
So the total volume of load thatthe players are experiencing is
(18:28):
wildly different now than it wasy, you know, few decades back.
So, you know, it certainlydoesn't mean that that
realization is a justificationto stop trying.
I think we're always examining.
What are potential risk factorsthat we can identify in
individual players?
(18:49):
Um, you know, the, the totalvolume of work at this level
that we're asking them toperform is a big one.
So if we can minimize exposure,Um, beyond points that we feel
may be, uh, the risk rewardscale may be tipped, then that
certainly helps.
You know, I think there's casesfor certain range of motion
testing and, and looking atstrength around certain joints
(19:10):
and, and all of those thingsthat I think have been around
for a while I think have a lotof merit.
But, um, I don't know that justchasing the let's prevent
injuries, um, as an end goal isrealistic.
And I think it also, Y you know,as, as, uh, somebody that works
(19:30):
as a performance coach, I thinklooking at minimizing injury
risk as a primary training goalmakes it easy to overlook the
impact that we can have on, onimproving and maximizing
performance in the athlete,which is, which is, uh, part of
our goal too.
So, you know, there's, there'ssome cases where the
(19:52):
interventions may even be thesame.
Whether we're trying to minimizeinjury risk or positively impact
performance, but the lens thatyou're looking through, those
things are different.
So you know, as an example, whenpeople think of mobility work or
flexibility, range of motion,That is almost always framed as
an injury risk reductionstrategy.
(20:15):
You know, there's a loss ofmobility.
You're putting excessive wearand tear on that and or a
neighboring joint, so we need toopen that up so that it moves
freely.
You know, there's a little bitmore movement variability both
within that joint and thenwithin the system as a whole,
and that may, uh, positivelyimprove the athlete's durability
or resiliency to, to movementstress.
(20:36):
Another way of looking at thatis that athletes need to be able
to get into certain positionswithin their sport to perform a
movement within that sportoptimally.
And if they can't, because theyhave some individual joint
restriction, it's gonnanegatively impact their
performance in, uh, whatevermovement skill is relevant
(20:56):
there.
So, you know, in hockey there'sa couple, there's a couple
basic, you know, you need ankledorsiflexion to get into a
deeper skating position.
In order to maintain a deepskating position and get full
extension of the stride leg, youneed to have a certain amount of
hip abduction.
That's, there's a trade offthere that a lot of people
overlook, I think, where if, ifyou don't have the abduction,
(21:19):
it's gonna force you to adopt ahigher skating position to get
your, your leg through that fullstride.
So, you know, those are areaswhere ankle mobility, uh, and
hip mobility.
R really have a positive impacton skating performance, let
alone the potential impact itcan have on on injury risk
reduction.
Mike (21:40):
That, that's huge.
And, and I think that's whereyour unique experience with
this.
Again, I consider you unique.
I've, I've worn similar shoes asyourself, where you've worked so
many years outside of the gameand then you worked so many
years inside the game.
You, you realize that.
If you just have one of thoseexposures, you probably miss a
little bit.
So I really love yourperspective on some of these
(22:00):
things.
So it it, let's keep going onwhat you just said there because
I love that part.
I, if I'm, if I'm a strengthcoach or even a physical
therapist, but a strength coachat a gym and I'm working with a
bunch of high school players andI don't necessarily specialize
in hockey just yet, but I'msuper interested in it.
Keep going.
Along those lines there, thosetypes of pearls, so like ankle,
dorsey, flexion's, huge hipabduction.
(22:21):
What are the other things thatyou think, uh, uh, you train
uniquely for hockey players thatwe don't do for other sports,
like football, basketball,baseball, those sorts of things.
What are the, some of the thingsthat you focus on?
Kevin (22:33):
Yeah, I think from a range of motion standpoint, you
know, I, I used hip abduction asa, as an example, but I think
really multiplayer hip mobilityis huge for the sport.
You know, you.
There's an interplay betweenankle dorsiflexion and hip
flexion that allows you to adopta low skating position.
Then, you know, like Imentioned, you need a certain
amount of hip abduction tomaintain that deep skating
(22:57):
position.
But then it's, that's linearskating, right, which is, uh, an
incredibly important but verysmall segment of what actually
takes place during the game.
So, you know, there's also.
When you are, uh, when you'restriding out on the Ford skating
stride, there's a degree of hipexternal rotation.
There's a, uh, heavy emphasis onabduction and there's a little
(23:21):
bit of hip extension.
When you push under and acrossover stride, there's hip
abduction and there's internalrotation, right?
So, um, On the leg that'sstriding on the stance leg, your
inflection and externalrotation.
So, you know, I, I think you canlook at different phases of
skating, stride patterns.
And really there's an argumentto be built for maximizing
(23:45):
within, you know, theappropriate physiological
ceiling where you're not pushingthrough passive structures.
Um, maximizing multiplayer hipmobility for hockey players.
The other big one.
It is just thoracic spinerotation.
So you know, obviously thewhatever's going on in the lower
segment, typically the oppositeis happening in the upper body
(24:06):
to counterbalance that movement.
Right?
So, you know, you're stridingout to the, with your right leg,
your upper body is gonna turntowards the left to
counterbalance that.
So, You know, be between theskating stride itself, between,
uh, shooting obviously is, youknow, a analogous to a baseball
swing or a golf swing whereyou're going through a high
velocity rotational movement.
(24:28):
Having free thoracic rotation,uh, is, is huge as far as being
able to open up that motion.
You know, I think another I.
Important expression of that is,you know, there's a lot of
opportunities, uh, where, youknow, a player sends you a pass
and it may not lead you and beon your stick in front of you
where you're gonna have torotate backward.
(24:50):
So your stick blade then becomesan extension of your body to be
able to access more of the areaaround yourself.
So, you know, having some, uh,having good rotation through
your hips, having good rotationthrough your thoracic spine, it
allows you then to.
Use your stick around a widerarc of motion, and whether
(25:11):
that's collecting passes thatmaybe are, uh, not able to be
directly in front of you becauseof the way the, uh, opposition
is lined up.
Whether that's, you know, movinga puck across a wider arc of
motion to evade defenders, um,whether that's using your stick
stick in a defensive strategyto, to help close or eliminate
(25:32):
some space for the other team.
Um, passing lanes, shootinglanes, uh, those sorts of
things.
I think, you know, that'sanother, uh, another example of
where having really goodthoracic rotation can be really
helpful is just expanding yourarc of influence with your, your
stick there.
So those are the big ones.
You know, I, I've brought up theidea of, of adopting lower
(25:54):
skating positions a coupletimes, so general ideas.
The lower you are, the longeryour stride is.
And the longer your stride is,the more your skate blade is
making contact with the ice.
So there's a longer opportunityfor you to put force in the ice
to propel yourself forward.
So there's been, uh, you know,as you can imagine, there's not
(26:17):
a ton of research on, on hockeythat's been published, but there
have been a few studies lookingat the Ford skating stride and,
and there's been a prettyconsistent finding that.
Lower skating positions, uh, aallow players to skate faster.
It's, it's a characteristic thatI think everybody that works in
hockey is, is familiar with.
(26:38):
You know, you go to any youthhockey rink, you're gonna hear
the coach telling people to, tobend their knees or to get
lower.
And that's really the reason whyis that it allows you to
lengthen your stride.
It's more time to put force intothe ice, which then gives you a
larger force impulse to propelyour body forward with each
stride.
So, Um, you know, kind of tyingeverything together.
(26:59):
I think, you know, havingmobility and even just low
position endurance, being ableto maintain those positions are
two things, even at the youthlevel that, that we harp on
pretty early on with kids tomake sure that they're checking
that box.
And, um, you know, you see a lotof kids where, Range of motion
may not be limited, but theyjust don't have the strength to
(27:19):
get into and the, the localmuscular endurance to hold those
positions.
So that's kinda low hangingfruit to address those that can
have a positive impact on speed.
Mike (27:30):
That was awesome.
And I, I gotta take a break in amoment here to say this too, and
I don't, hopefully I, I don'tfloat your ego too much here,
Kevin, but that was an amazinganswer.
And I gotta just say for thelisteners here too, um, isn't
it, Awesome.
When somebody's such an expertin the field, like Kevin is with
hockey right now, that theseanswers and the depth of, of the
(27:51):
information that is just spewingout of Kevin right now is just
absolutely amazing.
Like, I want to hang out withyou for like a whole weekend and
just talk hockey.
Like that's that, that's what Igot out of that question, like.
Uh, I mean, just your level ofdepth into these, these just
shows your, your brain focuseson, on pretty much hockey and
nothing else would be my guesswith you, Kevin.
So this is, this has been reallyfun.
(28:13):
So I apologize.
I had to take that break andpoint that out to the listeners.
Like that's the sort of thingthat, that, that.
Uh, separates experts in my mindis just the, the casual amount
of information that Kevin takesfor granted probably each day
that he just shared with us injust a five minute question.
I, I thought that was amazing.
So thank you for that.
So sorry for that break.
Kevin (28:34):
No, I appreciate that.
I'd probably benefit from havingsome more hobbies, but yeah,
I've spent a, spent a lot oftime thinking about this stuff.
Mike (28:42):
Uh, well, every golfer I know that quit, I mean, every
hockey player I know that quitshockey goes to golf and
dominates.
So you should, uh, you shouldstart looking into that because,
uh, everybody seems to be agreat golfer, but, uh, That, uh,
but again, amazing.
Uh, one other area I wanted tohit on you.
I'll, I'll get back on focus, Iapologize.
But, uh, one other area I wantedto hit on, just like what you
(29:03):
just answered right there istell the listeners a little bit
about the injuries you're seeingin hockey nowadays, because
again, I think everythingevolves over time, right?
And, and the, the injuries thatthey saw probably 20 years ago
and 10 years ago maybe are alittle different than today.
What do you think are some ofthe things that you're seeing
the most in hockey these days?
Kevin (29:21):
Yeah, I mean, I, I think there's, uh, there's a few
things that have probably beenfairly consistent over the years
as far as impact injuries withconcussions with, uh, AC
separations.
Um, those are significantly morecommon than, uh, shoulder
dislocations.
But, you know, let me get thoseevery few years as well.
(29:42):
Um, you know, I think the bigones are, That we certainly put
a high emphasis on preventing,um, our soft tissue injuries
around the hip, whether that'ship flex or strains, adductor
strains.
Um, and then also lowerabdominal tears.
And I, I think the, you know,we, there's been, uh, over the
(30:03):
last 10 years in particular,there's been a lot more
attention paid tofemoroacetabular impingement and
the downstream consequencesthat.
The, you know, for the listenerthat maybe isn't familiar, you
know, femoroacetabularimpingement or f fai is
essentially a bony overgrowth,either of the, you know, the
(30:24):
femoral head neck offset or ofthe acetabular hood, or, which
is probably the most common.
Some, some degree of both.
That limits hip flexion range ofmotion because of the bony
obstruction.
So, You know, there's certainlysome, uh, things that you can do
to help navigate that oncethat's present.
But as a general rule, that's astructural block and that's not
(30:48):
something that you can, youknow, mobility work your way out
of opposed to somebody that mayhave a more functional
limitation, but know.
Uh, F FAI may respond a lot, uh,a lot better or, um, to a larger
extent than somebody that doeshave that structural block.
So, you know, with that, whenyou have players that are
(31:10):
attempting to navigate intothese positions that the game is
requiring of them.
While also working around astructural block like fai, you
can get some maybe excessivemotion at the pubic synthesis,
um, or, you know, the SI areathat can create some issues
around that entire pelvic ring.
(31:31):
So whether that's, you know,sitis, pubic, and you have some
inflammation at that pubicsynthesis joint, whether that's,
you know, SI related issues,whether, um, somebody has, uh,
uh, hip flex or strain or.
Um, you know, adductor, longis,pec tinius, we tend to see a lot
more of those opposed to, uh,the other adductors.
(31:52):
Um, all of those things may berelated to how the athlete is
positioning their pelvis andattempting to navigate around a
structural block.
So, you know, I, I think in, inattempting to address that, we
first need to identify is therea structural block?
Is this something that.
You know, this has, uh, thisbony overgrowth has progressed
(32:13):
to a point where we need tostart looking for strategies to
work around it instead of tryingto improve it, if that makes
sense.
Um, and with that, you know,we've, we obviously are
fortunate in this setting where,you know, we have multiple,
multiple physical therapists.
We have, uh, two chiropracticconsultants.
(32:35):
We have a full and part-timemassage therapist, you know,
within our staff.
Um, you know, we have peoplethat can dry needle, obviously,
uh, boney manipulation, um, youknow, a a lot of the, uh, common
soft tissue schools that peopleare familiar with.
Um, we try to, you know, open uprange of motion using those
(32:57):
strategies, then reinforce itusing, um, you know, whether
corrective exercise is still abad word.
Now, I, I don't know, but.
Um, you know, we try to open uprange of motion and then create
some stability and control withthe new range of motion and just
make sure that we're not pushingthrough ranges that that
(33:17):
individual structure doesn'tallow.
And, you know, I, I think Mike,the injury prevention side of
it, um, goes hand in hand withthe performance side of it too,
which is, you know, half thebattle is for, for players at
this stage that.
Have some accumulated wear andtear.
You know, pretty much everybodyhas some injury history.
(33:38):
The older the player, typicallythe, the more, uh, significant
the list is of things that theyhave gone through, the surgeries
they've had, the injuries thatthey've healed from.
So, you know, half the battle isknowing what not to do with
certain players.
Where, where maybe, uh, theirstructure really doesn't lend
(33:58):
itself to, you know, there's asignificant enough hip
restriction that.
The skating stride, whichrequires extremes of hip range
of motion at high velocities, atrepetitive high volumes.
Maybe that's a real challengefor their structure to, uh, to
accommodate and to perform at.
But they're here, right?
(34:18):
So they've obviously, they'vefound a way to be successful
enough to, to work aroundwhatever limitations they have.
So a significant part of ourjob.
Is to make sure that we're notthen adding excessive negative
stress that's going to increasethe, uh, demand that they need
to recover from in some of theseareas.
(34:39):
So, you know, there might be amore conservative exercise or a,
a more narrow exercise selectionfor certain players, where we're
really focusing on, you know, weknow these patterns are safe.
We know that the player respondswell to these things.
So we can really focus ourloading strategies on these few
patterns where, you know, ayounger player that doesn't have
(35:02):
that same wear and tear, maybedoesn't have structural
limitations, they're gonna havea, a larger bandwidth to
introduce variability in theexercise selection, uh, stage of
the process.
So, um, you know, hopefully allthat makes sense, but injuries,
heads, shoulders, hips, andthen, The other one is, is, uh,
(35:23):
contact injuries to the knee, towhich, you know, we, we having
strong hips, um, y you know,making players aware from an
anticipation standpoint.
I think that's probably anoverlooked part of it.
And, and frankly, it's a hardthing to, to implement
regardless of who that messageis coming from, whether it's us,
(35:44):
the medical staff, coachingstaff, skills coaches.
Um, the more a player cananticipate contact without it
distracting from them doingtheir job and, and.
Um, you know what, whatever thatis, moving the puck or just
being aware that a player'sapproaching them and that
they're likely to, uh, withstandsome contact.
(36:06):
The, the more aware they are andthe better they prepare, prepare
for that.
I think that that has asignificant impact on how
they're absorbing that contact,which can have an impact on
head, shoulder and kneeinjuries, but it's a fast game,
um, and there's a lot of chaoson the ice.
So, you know, that's kind ofthe.
One of the occupational hazardsof the sport is that
(36:27):
occasionally you get some kneeinjuries as well.
Mike (36:30):
For sure, for sure.
H h how many, how many people,how many young players do you
see entering the game now withwell established FAI symptoms?
Is, is that something that'sgrowing?
Are we, are we, are weidentifying asymptomatic ones
earlier now?
Like how has that evolved justin your short career so far,
(36:51):
like in the last 10 years or so?
Kevin (36:54):
Y Yeah, there was a, there was a study, I think it
was published in 2013 fromPhilippine's group out in
Colorado.
And, and they did a, uh, theyperformed, you know, IM imaging
on the hips of youth hockeyplayers.
And essentially what they foundwas that, you know, when players
are roughly in the, you know,13, 14 year old age group, so,
(37:18):
you know, think eighth, ninthgraders that.
About a third of them alreadyhad a hip structure that would
allow them to be diagnosed withf a I.
Um, there was a slightly higherpercentage, if I'm remembering
correctly, I think closer to 40%that had labral tears at that
age.
And then you go up another fewyears, so 15, 16 year olds, and
(37:41):
those numbers both jumped toabout 67%.
About two-thirds of the playershad diagnosable f A I and hip
labral tears.
Next age group up, you know,which is essentially the end of
high school by the time theseplayers are entering.
Junior, you know, on the earlierend of college, it was 93% that
had diagnosable f a i, and Ibelieve it was a hundred percent
(38:03):
that had hip labral tears.
So, you know, I, I think the,there's a couple important
messages there.
One is that, The significant,uh, majority of those
populations were asymptomatic.
So, you know, I think this isanother example in, in, you
know, there's several looking atimages of different joints and
(38:23):
different populations, but I.
Um, you, you can't just rely onthe findings of images to
dictate the, the path forward.
You know, if you have all thesepositive findings of, of fai and
labral tears and asymptomaticplayers, and if a player has
symptoms, then that's certainlya piece of the puzzle.
I think it's helpful to knowwhat might be going on, you
(38:45):
know, take a peek under the hoodand see structurally what may be
contributing.
But at the same time, I thinkyou have to marry those imaging
findings with.
Your movement assessments withthe onset of symptoms of, uh,
what type of movement patterns,maybe provoke symptoms and, and
how they respond to somedifferent soft tissue
modalities, and then exerciseinterventions as well.
(39:08):
So that's, that's part of it, isthat for youth players that
maybe don't have the same volumeof, you know, they're, they're
not hearing, uh, about as manyplayers getting x-rays and MRIs
on their hips and.
They don't know that that's asprevalent of a finding as it is.
They might be scared if theyhear that they have a hip label
(39:29):
tear and think like, I need toget this operated on as fast as
possible.
Um, you know, I, I think there'sreason to give yourself pause
and to, to maybe explore someother options before just
defaulting to surgery.
So that's one part of it.
I think from, from myperspective, uh, I now enter a
(39:50):
relationship with an athlete,assuming that they have some
stage of structural limitationat the hip, and likely a hip
labral tear until they prove tome otherwise.
So
Mike (40:03):
Right.
Isn't that, isn't that crazy?
Kevin (40:05):
case, I think, early on, starting in my career where, you
know, you assume health until,until something, uh, until some
information comes to light thatpoints you in a different
direction.
I think now, I'm assuming thatthere are limitations in
assuming that there's probablysome underlying damage to the
hip labrum and some otherstructures around the hip un
(40:26):
until we have enough water underthe bridge of working with that
athlete and knowing that theyrespond favorably to, to certain
strategies that they almost testtheir way into, you know, deeper
ranges of motion or, you know,some different exercises that I
might steer clear from as ageneral rule, general rule for
the population.
Mike (40:48):
Yeah, I great insight.
And I can tell you as a, uh,father of a, uh, 10 year old
girl that's been playing, uh,quite a bit of hockey lately,
uh, it's getting worse.
It's gonna get worse.
She skates.
She's getting all year nowbecause she's, you know, she's
learning.
So she's trying to get throughthese things.
And what we're seeing at theyouth level with some of these
sports is, is just crazy.
(41:08):
I, I, I can only imagine thefuture, but, um, it sounds like
I need to work on her Dorseyflexion.
I need to work on her hipabduction, multi-directional
stop.
So this whole episode was purelyfor my daughter.
So thank you, Kevin.
I appreciate that.
Kevin (41:22):
Yeah.
You know, and it's, uh, so backin the private sector, we used
to work with a lot of youthhockey programs and youth soccer
programs and.
You know, as, uh, when we wouldhave these teams that would come
in, we would take them through abasic screening process.
And one of the things that welooked at was ankle
dorsiflexion.
And, you know, I was reallyquick, uh, tangent to that
(41:46):
story.
I, uh, my, my son startedplaying soccer, um, last fall.
And, you know, I, I got a realkick out of.
You know, the first coupleminutes they had all the, my,
he's five at the time, so, um,not quite at the same stage that
your daughter is at, but I got areal kick.
They started practice by likelining all the kids up and
stretching and.
(42:07):
You know, it's like I, I, I sawmy son earlier that day, put his
foot behind his head.
So, you know, I kind of thoughtit was funny.
This population probably don'tneed to set him up and, and go
through stretching as a way toprepare them.
You can probably just get himmoving and that'll do the trick
for him.
But that assumption, uh,disappears faster than I
(42:27):
would've thought.
And with some of those youth,Hockey and soccer teams, we
would see with 11, 12, 13 yearolds, boys and girls, that there
were significant dorsiflexionlimitations in both.
Meaning, you know, if you dothat traditional tests with the,
uh, the FMS kid and you're justmeasuring dorsiflexion in
(42:50):
inches, we had several playersthat could not clear their big
toe, meaning they had, you know,zero inches using that test of
dorsiflexion.
So, Um, you know, I, I thinkthe, the assumption that because
they're kids and they tend to beflexible because of the amount
of volume of, of sport thatthey're going through at younger
(43:11):
ages, um, I think footwear hasa, plays a big role in this as
well.
But, um, dorsa flexion was oneof those things that, uh,
started to.
Become restricted significantlyearlier in the developmental
process than I would've assumedhad we not gone through that
process.
So, um, Doris selection would beone to at least check with your
(43:32):
daughter.
Mike (43:34):
Interesting.
I love it.
Awesome.
Well, Kevin, this is amazing.
I, I feel like we could talkfor, for hours, but, uh, before
we end, I wanna let you, uh,kind of share some things so we
can learn a little bit.
About you, but, uh, littlesequence at the end called the
high five.
Five quick questions, five quickanswers, just to learn a little
bit about your mind, your growthmindset, that sort of thing.
But first question, what are youcurrently working on for your
(43:56):
own continuing education andprofessional development?
What are you doing right now?
Kevin (44:01):
Yeah, that's a good question.
I, uh, my ConEd tends to go incycles.
I, I tend to get fixated on a,an area and, um, you know,
whether that's a new book or, orresearch articles on a topic, I,
you know, tend to get fixated ona topic, digest as much
information as I can on that.
And then, Cycle back throughsomething that maybe I had spent
(44:23):
a lot of time on in years pastand feel like I, I need to
review, um, or freshen up on abit.
And I, uh, you know, the lastfew weeks I went through Peter
Atias new book, outlive, andthought that that was just an
outstanding deep dive into sometopics that are, are very
important from a public healthstandpoint.
(44:44):
Um, you know, obviously as noneof us get younger, right?
So.
Um, I finished that book andthen immediately restarted that
to reread it.
And, uh, looking forward togoing through that a second
time.
But I, I, uh, also pulled out myold t p I manual.
Um, there's a book, uh, calledMaking Numbers Count, I think by
(45:06):
Chip and Dan Heath.
Um, and then I have, uh, acouple books on sleep that I'm,
I'm rereading as well right now.
So those are all some thingsthat I had, uh, g gone through
in years past that I'm justpulling back off the shelf and
gonna give myself a little bitof a refresher here.
Mike (45:22):
Awesome.
What is one thing you'verecently changed your mind
about?
Kevin (45:28):
Yeah, it's a good question.
I, I, uh, I, I think.
Yeah, no, I mean, I, I, I'mconstantly changing my mind
about things.
I, you know, I, I think the, uh,you know, we talked a little bit
about the technology and thesports science area as a whole,
and, you know, when I firststarted to recognize the
importance of that area of, ofwithin sport workload
(45:52):
monitoring, um, in particular,I, I really was going into it
with.
The assumption and, and maybethe hope that y you could have a
very prescriptive, targetedapproach of, you know, we need
to hit these numbers and that'sgoing to, you know, quote
unquote guarantee us theseoutcomes.
And y you know, I, I think asI've spent more time with that
(46:16):
data and understanding where itfits within the.
You know, the, the globalenvironment of team sport,
particularly at this level.
You know, I, I think it's, it'sless of a sniper rifle approach
and more of a, you know, can,like I had mentioned earlier,
can we put some bumper lanes on,on excessive and insufficient
(46:38):
stress on the player?
And, you know, I think about allof those, all of the technology,
and I think I mentioned thisearlier as well as, Just
creating feedback loops.
So no matter what the number is,no matter what the source of
that feedback is, you know, didwe, did we expect the response,
the feedback that we got?
If we didn't expect it, can weexplain it?
(47:01):
So you know, maybe we're testingvertical jump and we just came
off of a long road trip anddidn't get in until 4:00 AM
players had a day off.
The next day we come in andvertical jump numbers are down.
Well, is it because theircapacity has been reduced?
Or is it because they're stillacclimating to a time zone
change and the, uh, circadianshift that results from staying
(47:26):
up until four or 5:00 AM in themorning as a result of the
travel.
So, you know, did we expect it?
Can we explain it?
And then do we need tointervene?
And if we do need to intervene,who's doing the intervening?
And then what is our feedbackfor whether that was a positive
intervention?
So, you know, I, I think, um,my.
My mentality on how, uh, sportscience should inform the
(47:50):
process has evolved quite a bitover recent years.
Mike (47:55):
That's awesome.
That's awesome.
And, and that's, that's how yougrow in that field.
It's.
Through experience.
Right.
So I, I, I think that's a, agreat way of saying it.
Um, next question is, and I'mgonna customize this a little
bit for you a little bit, butwhat is your best piece of
advice for a, a student or anearly career professional that
wants to get into pro hockey at,what would you tell them?
Kevin (48:15):
Yeah, I mean, I, I think the first question I would ask
is, why do you want to get intopro hockey?
You know, I think there's a.
An assumption that, uh, thatworking at this level is a
reflection on, you know, youbeing the best because you're
working with the best players.
And, you know, I I, I have foundworking at this level to be
(48:37):
incredibly rewarding.
It's been, uh, a, a funchallenge for a lot of the
reasons we talked about before,but I, I also would say in the
same breath that I have atremendous amount of respect for
the coaches that.
Can get a 12 year old that hasnot been exposed to formal
training and is going throughthat stage of their development,
(48:59):
where their movement skills andcoordination are really
challenging if a coach can getthem to do things correctly.
I, I think it's every bit asmuch of a feather in their cap
as far as their, their coachingabilities as it is to work with
players at this level.
I think, um, you know, there's.
There's a, a significant needfor great coaches working at the
(49:23):
youth levels, working at, um,division three collegiate
levels.
Uh, certainly working in highschools around the country that,
you know, I would, I wouldencourage people to, to maybe
hold those positions in a higherregard than, uh, you know, I
think most people just.
Want to get to pro sports asfast as possible and, and maybe
(49:44):
overlooking some reallyexceptional opportunities to
make an impact at youth levels.
So that said, um, you know, Ithink to, to earn an opportunity
to interview for a position atany elite level of sport,
whether that's, uh, you know, aquote unquote big time division
(50:05):
one program, whether it's somelevel of professional sport.
You need to have a wide range offoundational knowledge.
You need to have an expansiveand diverse, uh, set of, of
applied experiences.
Um, you need to be well versedin different areas of.
(50:27):
Your education and yourexperience that support
performance?
I don't think it's enough now.
The way that the profession hasevolved to just be a good kind
of traditional strength andconditioning coach, I think you
have to have some supportingknowledge in other areas,
whether that's nutrition,whether that's, um, you know,
the, the familiarity with, uh,rehab strategies and some
(50:52):
comfort in working alongsiderehab professionals.
Um, whether that's more on the.
Uh, the technology side, evendata organization analysis,
presentation.
Um, you know, I, I think thatthose supporting skill sets are
incredibly important, and thatmay be, is a long-winded way of
(51:12):
saying you need to have somesort of valuable and rare
skillset that sets you apartfrom the other people that might
be putting in for those jobs.
And, you know, I, I think, uh,It's important to recognize
that, you know, j jobs at thislevel aren't, they're not posted
on job boards typically for, youknow, people all over the world
(51:34):
to apply for.
Typically people are, and thisis true, you know, I, I was
looking for an assistant acouple years ago, and I have a
group of people that I have atremendous amount of respect for
and trust in, and that was myfirst step in looking to
acquire.
An assistant and to hire for ourAHL organization as well is I'm
(51:56):
gonna look for recommendationsfrom people that I trust.
So one of the best ways, I thinkto develop your, your
experiences and to also maybe beput on the list of candidates
that are considered for these isto find great mentors and to.
(52:17):
Volunteer intern work, uh, youknow, whatever you can do to
provide some value back to thoseindividuals.
Just do that as early aspossible and to continue to work
and expand under the mentorshipof somebody that.
Has either worked in theposition that you are hoping to
(52:38):
one day have an opportunity tointerview for, um, or is at a
minimum, uh, you know, on thelist of people that are being
asked if they have anyrecommendations for people for
those positions.
And there's a lot of thosepeople out there.
Um, and I think people arereally willing to help mentor
(52:59):
younger professionals that, thatare.
In it for the right reasons.
And, um, you know, so that,that, that's what I would say.
I think, I think there's a lotof value in positions at other
levels that, uh, is gettingoverlooked and they're probably
underserved right now, you know,at the same time, um, I, if
people are really set onacquiring a position at higher
(53:22):
levels of sport, I, you know, Ithink you have to, it takes a
lot of work and it, it.
Takes purposeful work to expandwhat you're able to offer to an
organization, and it's not justgetting good grades in school.
I think that is helpful,obviously, but it, it's really
the, the breadth of experiencesand your ability to work within
(53:45):
a team in this setting.
Um, that's really the mostimportant.
Mike (53:50):
That's awesome and I don't think that advice will ever get
old, so this will be a goodepisode to refer back to.
So that was awesome.
Uh, what's coming up next foryou, Kevin?
Kevin (53:59):
Uh, that's a great question.
You know, I think, uh, over thelast couple months, uh, a
colleague of mine, Jesh Pateland I have been editors for a
new book that's coming out fromthe n Sca and Human Kinetics
called Strength Training forHockey.
So, Um, we're in the finalstages of that, so, uh, that's
been a fun project tocollaborate with, with b and,
(54:19):
and the, uh, the authors of theindividual chapters on.
I think, um, for me personally,I'm, I am trying to make a more
purposeful effort to, uh, sharecontent through social media,
primarily on Instagram and, andto get my website and newsletter
back active.
(54:40):
Um, I've taken a little bit of ahiatus as I've.
You know, transitioned into thepro sport world and, uh, that
has coincided with, uh, ushaving two kids at home now.
So,
Mike (54:50):
Sure.
Kevin (54:51):
know, we're starting to get our, our head above water
here on the home front as well.
So, um, hoping to get a littlebit more active on those fronts
too, and, and continue to shareinformation and.
Um, just do what I can to, togive back to people that are
interested, uh, in, in learningon those avenues.
So, um, that's kind of next stepfor me.
And then where things go fromthere, we will, uh, we'll see,
(55:13):
just kind of taking things oneday at a time.
Mike (55:15):
That's awesome.
Congrats on the book.
I look forward to seeing it.
That that'd be great.
Um, so where can people findmore about you then?
What's, what's a good spot?
I know I've, I've followed yourblog for some time.
I don't know how much you'vekept up with that, but obviously
you've done a bunch of stuffover the years, but where can
people find you?
Kevin (55:32):
Yeah, so my website is just kevin neal.com.
Um, you know, I, like I justmentioned, I.
The new content is, uh, notquite as frequent on that site
as it had been in the past, butI, I have something along the
lines of, of over 500 articles,uh, that are already on that
site.
So, um, primarily related to, tohockey and long-term athletic
(55:56):
development, the preparation ofthe hockey athlete across the,
the different stages.
So, Um, if those are areas thatare of interest, there's a lot
of free content on the site thatpeople can check out.
Uh, my Instagram account, I'mjust at Kevin Yield, uh, pretty
easy to find there.
But that's the other area too,where, um, I'm, I'm putting out
(56:17):
more, uh, new content asregularly as I can, uh, squeeze
into the schedule here.
So those are the two main spots.
Mike (56:25):
Awesome.
Well, thanks again for takingtime outta your busy schedule to
do this.
I know there's never a, an easytime for you to, to break free
and do this sort of thing, so,uh, amazing episode.
Tons of depth to your knowledgethat you shared with us today.
I, I can't thank you enough, sothanks for coming on the show,
Kev.
Kevin (56:40):
Cool.
Thanks Mike.
Appreciate you having me.
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