April 29, 2025 • 42 mins
Join host Spring Richardson Perry and Althea Lewis as they discuss the ethics of grant writing and the controversial practice of contingency-based compensation.
Here are some key takeaways
• Grant writers should never be paid on a contingency basis or only if a grant is awarded
• Ethical concerns center around integrity, trust, and being good stewards of funder money
• Pay-on-success models incentivize chasing large grants rather than focusing on organizational mission
• Federal grants may allow for indirect costs that can cover grant writing services
• Capacity building grants sometimes permit grant writing expenses but verify with the funder first
• Strong grant proposals require clear directions, alignment with funder priorities, and specific measurable outcomes
• Sustainability plans should leverage partnerships beyond just securing additional funding
• AI should only be used as a thought partner, not to write complete grant proposals
• Grants often go unfunded due to limited money available, not poor proposal quality
• Always request reviewer comments to strengthen future applications
To learn more about ethical grant writing practices or join Althea Lewis's Grant Writing Academy starting May 12th, contact her at contact@lewisgrantwriting.com or find her on Instagram at lewis4grants.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey, nonprofit friends, welcome to the Spring
Forward podcast, where we talkabout all things nonprofit, from
board discord to grant writingand strategic planning tips.
If you're an executive director, nonprofit board member or just
someone heavily involved in thenonprofit sector, then this is
the podcast for you.
Let's spring forward intoexcellence, and this is the
(00:31):
podcast for you.
Let's spring forward intoexcellence.
Welcome, welcome everyone toanother episode of the Spring
Forward podcast.
I'm your host, SpringRichardson Perry, and I'm super
excited today to be talking toyou guys about the ethics of
grant writing.
Recently there's been somethings happening in the grant
writing world, in the nonprofitworld, and I really want to lift
(00:51):
some things up and bring it tolight.
And to help me talk about thattoday I have Ms Athea Lewis.
She is the president of LewisGrant Writing Services, excuse
me and she has a master's degreein business administration and
is currently pursuing a doctoraldegree in educational
leadership let's go, girl andshe has a certificate, or is
(01:14):
pursuing her certificate, innonprofit management as well.
She has over 20 yearsexperience in grant writing and
has successfully secured over$50 million in grant funding for
nonprofits, faith-basedorganizations, school districts
and universities.
She currently teaches variousgrant writing and nonprofit
seminars through the SmallBusiness Center for over a dozen
(01:36):
local community colleges, andshe serves as a peer reviewer
for several federal agencies.
So clearly this is the one youwant on your team, guys, All
right.
So I'm super excited to bringher on today.
She's been at, she's presentedat, several conferences
nationwide, such as the NationalCouncil of University Research
(01:57):
Administrators, GrantProfessionals Association and
the Hampton University MinistersConference.
So, without further ado, let uswelcome Ms Althea Lewis.
Hi, Althea.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Hi Spring, how are you doing?
I am well.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Thank you so much for being here.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (02:17):
today I'm doing well.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm so excited.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
I am super excited to talk about this because when I
first reached out to you, youknow, something kind of weird
happened and I was like is thislike happening, you know, is
this something that's happeningeverywhere?
How often is this happening?
And then it happened again andI was like you know what?
We need to talk about thisbecause, you know, this is
(02:43):
something that I think ishappening more and more in the
grant writing world and we'renot really talking about it.
And what I'm saying, guys, hereis that in the grant writing
world, as grant writingprofessionals, there's a fee for
that right.
There's a fee for service, justfor about anything that you
(03:03):
want someone else to do for you,right?
And so every grant writer hastheir way of working, what their
set price is, what they do forthat price and all those
different things.
But lately I've beenencountering people who ask me
well, can we pay you when we getawarded the grant?
And the professionalassociation of grant writers,
(03:30):
the grant professionalsassociation, they will warn you
against that right.
And so there are a lot ofdifferent associations,
nonprofit associations, grantwriting associations that will
say, well, hey, number one, it'snot really ethical to do it
that way, but number two, likeyou're doing the work, and so,
whether the organization getsawarded the grant or not, you
(03:58):
still need to be compensated forthe work that you've done.
And so we're going to be really, really talking about this
today and lifting this up,because this seems to be more
and more of a common practice,and it really shouldn't be.
And so that's kind of where Iwant to start, althea.
It's like you know what are theethical concerns around that,
(04:19):
where you're only being paid ifthe grant is awarded, and you
know how does that affect thetransparency and the use of
those funds that the grant isactually for?
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yeah, that's an excellent question, Spring, and
really the ethical concerns arecentered around integrity and
trust.
Grant funders really expect usto be, you know, good stewards
of the money that they are, youknow, entrusted to us or any
nonprofits or any organization.
They expect you to spend themoney according to what you said
(04:55):
in the budget.
You know, and more than likely,they're not going to allow you
to put the fee of a grant writerin your budget, okay, and so
they want to see impact.
They want to see their moneybeing used for the community, um
, or things to help get yourproject implemented.
(05:17):
So when it comes to that, it'sreally important that nonprofits
stay focused on their mission.
You know they're.
You know that's why they'rethere, right there.
That's their purpose.
And there's also that concernof the grant writer prioritizing
getting this large commissionor getting all of this money
(05:39):
versus focusing on the missionof their client and helping them
to make a larger impact in thecommunity, and we want to see
those dollars used for thecommunity.
Of course, we know that as agrant writer or any grant
professional, you have to makemoney in order to stay in
business, but that's not the wayto do it.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Absolutely, and I love how you kept centering
around the mission.
Every nonprofit organizationexists because of a specific
mission, because they recognizedthat there was a gap in the
community somewhere.
And so they set out to fill thisgap and that became the mission
(06:25):
of the organization.
And so when you start talkingabout, you know, getting grants
and funding and all thesedifferent things, and you start
talking about paying grantwriters on the back end, well
then that starts to bring upconcerns about how they're going
to write this grant to actuallyget the money, because then it
(06:48):
starts to be like, well, arethey, you know?
Is this truly what theorganization is doing, or what
are the motives that this personhad for even writing this in
the first place?
So that becomes an issue.
But also, I kind of want tocircle back to something else
you said too, when you said thatgrants don't typically allow
for you to put that cost inthere to compensate the grant
(07:12):
writer.
And so there are ways tocompensate your grant writer and
especially if you're going forfederal funding, right, because
in those indirect costs, that'swhat cover those administrative
costs when you're looking atfederal funding.
And sometimes with state andlocal funding, they allow for
(07:33):
those indirect costs too.
But when you're looking atprivate foundations, that's a
whole different ballgame, that'sa whole other story, and the
funds typically are moreflexible in my experience when
it comes to the private sectorand the private foundations that
give out the grant money.
But you have to outline howyou're going to use that money,
(07:57):
and so you know.
It kind of just brings me to,you know, equity in this space,
right?
Yeah, If we're talking aboutthe pay on success model, you
know how is that affecting it?
Speaker 2 (08:16):
you know, well, you know that's a great question too
, because you know, in grantwriting, you know we are, you
know you're expected to havethese high success rates, right.
You know nowhere else in anyother industry.
You know we are, you knowyou're expected to have these
high success rates, right.
You know, nowhere else in anyother industry, you know, for
example, federal grants can takeyou 100 plus hours to write.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Oh my gosh don't even get me started on federal
grants.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Exactly.
And people expect you to havethese high returns on their you
know success rates and hey, whodoesn't want to be successful in
writing grants and federalgrants?
But that's a lot of work to not, of course, be paid for your
work.
So sometimes people say, hey,wait till the grant is funded.
Well, what if the grant is notfunded?
(09:00):
Ok, what if that happens?
Because that rejection happensin this industry.
So you have put all of thissweat equity, all this work in
to that grant proposal and youhaven't, you're not going to get
paid.
So that's an issue, right.
And so you know.
(09:20):
I've heard someone say that whenyou go to the doctor and they
prescribe you a medicine, youdon't tell well, if this doesn't
work or I don't get better, youcan't do my insurance, ok, so
you've got to have that samemindset.
You can't do that with grantwriting, right.
So you have to be able tounderstand that it takes a lot
of work.
(09:41):
Takes a lot of work, but whenit comes to that equity piece
that you were talking about, itcan be a problem, because if a
grant writer is only working onthis contingency basis, they're
going to be looking for theselarge grants so that they can
get a higher commission, and tome, that means you are not
(10:02):
focusing on first of all.
That's not ethical, but you'renot focusing on the right things
.
You're focusing on the moneyversus focusing on first of all.
That's not ethical, but you'renot focusing on the right things
.
You're focusing on the moneyversus focusing on, like I said,
helping your client to obtain.
You know um the course offunding, but you want to help
them to get their mission outthere right.
To focus on the mission.
You need to be mission drivenum, and so it can't be all about
(10:23):
the money.
You know, grant writing goesbeyond that.
It's also about buildingrelationships with some of these
funders.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Yes, and that's one of the biggest things that I
tell my clients is yes, we'regoing to be going after the
money because we need to fundyour mission, and that's why I
got started in this industry inthe first place, because I want
to see these organizations havea greater impact and I want to
(10:50):
be able to help them to have agreater impact.
It's not about the money,because having a greater impact
goes beyond the money.
There are other ways to haveimpact, and that's and that's
what I'm always looking at waysto have impact, and that's what
(11:11):
I'm always looking at.
What else can we do so that youguys have a greater impact in
the community?
So it goes far beyond justwriting grants.
Don't get me wrong, that is asignificant portion of what I do
, but it goes beyond that.
Because, in order for anonprofit organization to be
successful, or a school or youknow, the faith based
(11:32):
organizations because these are,these are the ones who are
typically out there gettingthese grants, looking for these
grants, in order for them tohave the impact that they need
to have, they also need to havea sound structure, internal
structure.
And so those are some of thethings that I help them with as
well, so that they can continueto have a larger impact in the
(11:55):
community.
And when the community seesthat your organization is always
there to serve, then they inturn want to support you, and
that turns into individualcontribution dollars, that turns
into corporate partnerships youknow what I mean.
(12:16):
That turns into partnershipswith other maybe nonprofits or
other organizations in the areawhere you have sort of
complimentary services, right.
And so it's about more thanjust the money and to expect
someone to do all this work.
(12:38):
And, mind you, this is why youwent and got this person to do
the work, because you couldn'tdo it yourself.
Not because you don't know how,but because, simply, you either
don't have the time, maybe youdon't have the know-how or can
really put the words together inan impactful way to you know,
state what it is that you'redoing in your community, right,
(12:58):
but there was a reason why youwent to go seek someone to do
this for you, and the simplefact that you felt that it was
valuable to have an externalperson come in to help you.
Or to hire a full-time grantwriter as a W-2 employee what
have you?
Whatever way you're doing it,they deserve to be compensated
(13:20):
fairly and whatever thatcompensation is, if they're a
contract employee, thenunderstand the way that they
work, how their fees arestructured, and if that's within
your budget or what you're okaywith, go for it.
If it's not, then you need tofind someone that is.
But clearly I'm on a tangentand this is near and dear to my
(13:41):
heart.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
No, this is really tough because you said you said
something so important about theinfrastructure you know, and a
lot of times people don't havethat in place and they just see,
oh, there's money available andthey're not even ready to go
out the grant.
So that's also an issue, too,as well.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
But I want to talk about this because you know in
the beginning, when youmentioned not being able to
write in the grant writer's feeinto most of your grants, you
know, like we said, some federalgrants allow for you to put in
the indirect costs that you canuse to reimburse, compensate or
(14:20):
however you're going to do yourbudget for that particular grant
.
But what are some other waysthat organizations can fund this
?
What are some ways that theycan find the money to pay the
grant writer?
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Yeah, so a lot of times, some nonprofits may have
some general operating fundsfrom other ways, from other
sources.
They may have some unrestrictedfunds.
They may have some donations,other sources, um, they may have
some unrestricted funds.
They may have some donations.
That may be another way to getyou know a lot of non-profits.
That's so important that you'relooking for multiple streams of
(14:53):
income coming in versus justrelying solely on grants, which
is another issue here.
You always want to havemultiple streams of revenue
coming in for your nonprofit,but you have to sustain.
As we look at the currentlandscape right now with grants,
there is some uncertainty aboutthe future even of some of the
federal grants, and so a lot ofpeople are shifting away from
(15:14):
the federal grants.
I'm not saying that they'regoing to be gone forever.
No, they're going to be there.
They may not be as many as theywere in the past, but we have
to think about how other waysyou can fund these kind of
things, and so your foundationmoney is going to be restricted
about, you know, restrictiveabout how you can spend those
funds as well, too.
(15:34):
You're not going to be able to,more than likely, place a grant
writer into the budget now.
There are maybe very fewcapacity building grants out
here that might allow somethinglike that, but that's when I
would be extremely careful aboutthose grants.
You want to get it in writingfrom the funder that this is an
allowable cost, but you want todo everything that you're
(15:58):
supposed to do with the funding.
And it's all about trust.
Nonprofit funders are fundersof nonprofits all these
foundations, federal grants,whoever.
They're looking to know.
They're looking to see if theycan trust you and if they cannot
trust you with their funds, ifyou go and pay a grant writer
and you didn't get permission todo that or it wasn't something
(16:20):
that was allowable, then they'regoing to question well, what
else would you do with our money?
Yes, you know.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
That's just.
That's just like, if you are,if you're in a.
I'm going to give y'all anexample.
Okay, yeah, I was like, so it'sa funny story, because I was in
labor with my baby girl.
It was about two years agoexactly and the school called
(16:53):
and I was like what is going on?
Like they know, I'm in labor,what is happening?
So they were telling a storyabout my daughter.
She had brought a lot of moneyto school that day and they
thought it was very odd, becausethey were like, well, yeah,
because there was a book fairgoing on.
And they were like, well, yeah,it was a book fair, but we know
(17:18):
, ms Perry, you don't reallyoperate like this.
So we just thought it was kindof odd.
So we, you know, we took, wetook the money, we put it in an
envelope, we're going to send itback home with her.
Well, she got into my husband'srainy day fund jar and had a
field day, right.
And so we were like girl, whatare you doing?
(17:39):
What are you thinking?
You know better than this.
You don't just go in there andjust take money.
I'm thinking, oh my gosh, Ihave a criminal on my hands.
This is like, let me get mybail money together for this
child as we get older.
Okay, first of all, extreme, notthe case at all.
This happens.
She can do this, it is okay,she's fine now.
(18:00):
But right then, and there, inthat short time period when
things will go missing, we'relike, oh, did you take it?
You know, and this is howfunders see things right, and
you break that trust and maybeunknowingly you're breaking that
trust.
Is what she did?
She knew she did somethingwrong, but she didn't realize
(18:20):
how big of a deal it was Right.
And so you know, you have to bevery careful with how you do
this because, um, becausefunders want to help you with
your mission.
If, what?
If what you do aligns with whatthey fund, then, uh, if, if
(18:40):
it's, if it's enough moneyavailable to fund all the people
who are asking, who are inalignment with them, then
they're more than likely goingto do it.
But what you outline in thatproposal has to be what you're
spending the money on, and Ithink that's where a lot of
(19:01):
organizations lose sight ofthings they do, and especially
the ones that are smallernonprofits with smaller budgets,
who don't have a larger staff,or they maybe have a program
coordinator.
They may have an accountingperson, program coordinator.
(19:27):
They may have an accountingperson, whether it's a
bookkeeper or a CFO or someonein the finance industry, that is
dedicated to watching the funds.
This may surprise you all, butnot all nonprofit organizations
even have a finance person onstaff Exactly, and so sometimes
the executive director is doingthe best that they know how to
(19:48):
do in terms of carrying out themission, using the money
appropriately, and sometimesthings just kind of fall through
the cracks.
And then, when the funders askfor their report and ask for,
you know, a printout of how youuse the funds, and they're going
through it with their finetooth comb, they're like wait a
(20:10):
minute, that's not what you saidin this proposal.
So now they're going to saysome some put you on a list and
you can't ever.
So now they're going to saysome some put you on a list and
you can't ever, you know, applyagain.
Some say, ok, you have to waittwo years, three years, maybe
five years before you canreapply.
And so you just, you just haveto be very careful.
(20:39):
But but also, I want to talkabout this too, because you
mentioned capacity buildinggrants, right, and I actually
saw a lot of those last year.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
But, with the new administration they put,
building grants are exactly whatthe name says it builds your
capacity to be able to carry outyour mission Right.
So sometimes a lot of thesesmall nonprofits especially them
, even some larger ones can getthem, of course, but these small
nonprofits may not have theability to, like you said, write
(21:29):
a grant.
Maybe they don't have theirboard fully developed, maybe
their board needs some training,maybe you might need to
purchase some type of equipmentor technology, so in order to
get your project off the groundright.
And so these grants arespecifically to help to
(21:49):
strengthen your capacity or you,and to make that, of course,
that large impact in thecommunity.
But there's, you know,specifically designated to help
to strengthen your capacity tocarry out your project.
But, like I said, you're goingto find some that are going to
more focus on, of course, likeyour board development.
Like I said, I've seen one ortwo here that might allow a
(22:11):
grant writer.
But, like I said, you want tobe extremely careful to make
sure that, even with thesecapacity building grants, that
you are using them in thecapacity that should be used,
and so you still want to be, youknow, extra careful.
But, like I said, it isdefinitely for organizations
that don't have theinfrastructure in place that
(22:32):
they need in order to getstarted, and a lot of funders
understand that that noteveryone starts out at the same
level, at the same playing field, right, some nonprofits need
that extra support they need fortheir maybe their board doesn't
have the knowledge that theyneed in order to help run the
(22:53):
nonprofit.
You know, investing in somekind of training like that,
maybe they can help pay forstaff development.
Maybe your staff you have a newexecutive director that doesn't
have the knowledge.
Like you said, they may be doingall that they can just to keep
things afloat, but maybe theydon't have the skills of how to
know how to write a grant, maybethat can help to build the
(23:16):
capacity of your staff, of yourorganization, your board.
So those are ways that you canuse those grants.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Absolutely, and I love you know how you really
define this, because it isreally just that simple y'all.
Capacity building grants are tobuild your capacity to be able
to carry out your mission.
So whatever that looks likeright, your board has to be
trained.
They have to understand whattheir role is in governance of
(23:47):
the organization and I find alot of times board members are
comprised of good people thatwant to do good work but they
don't understand what it meansto actually be on the board of a
nonprofit organization,understand what it means to
actually be on the board of anonprofit organization, and that
(24:09):
looks very different.
If you were on the board of adirectors for a for-profit
organization, you know.
One of the most obvious ways isthat sometimes for-profit
boards are compensated, whereasin nonprofit boards they're
often not.
They can be it's not illegal,it has to be disclosed but
oftentimes they're notcompensated as a board member of
a nonprofit organization.
(24:31):
But there are stark differencesin for-profit boards and
nonprofit boards and a capacitybuilding grant Sometimes I've
seen these as well that canbuild capacity for your board so
that they can be the steeringcommittee of the organization in
(24:52):
the appropriate way.
So there's grants out therethat can help with those things.
But again, if you're thinkingof hiring a grant writer, you
have to make sure that youunderstand how that grant writer
works.
You have to understand whattheir fees are, what that
(25:13):
structure looks like.
And then you have to I mean youhave to either you agree to it
or you don't.
And if you don't, then you knowmove on and find someone who
fits into your budget.
But you cannot expect thatsomeone is going to work on a
contingency basis or for free orfor free at all, because
(25:34):
because there's a lot of workthat goes into writing these
grants, and this is kind of whatI want to segue into here.
Althea, is, you've been onreview boards and having to, you
know, review grants, whetherthey get awarded or not, and
I've been in that capacity aswell.
(25:54):
And so I want to kind of shiftand talk about what makes a
strong grant proposal, because,for our listeners, I think this
will be super helpful for them,for the ones who are trying to
do it all, wearing all the hatsthat need to figure out okay, I
can't afford a grant writerright now, so I need to figure
out how I'm going to do this andwrite these grants in an
(26:16):
impactful way.
So how can they do that?
What makes a strong grantproposal?
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Excellent question.
I would say first of all, youwant to follow the directions.
That is the golden rule ingrant writing Follow the
direction.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
No, that sounds like the craziest thing to say, but
I'm telling you, when you'vebeen on a review board, a grant
review board, I look at thedirections and you look at board
.
You will look at the directionsand you'll look at the proposal
and you'll look at thedirections again and you'll be
like well, I know, I said, maybeI'm reading this wrong because
that's not what they did.
And so, yes, follow directions.
(26:53):
This is the most basic thing,right?
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Yes, because that is a sure way of your grant more
than likely getting rejected.
More than likely OK.
So I would say, after you haveread the directions and follow
the directions, making sure thatthere is alignment with what
the funder is looking to fund.
If you're a project inalignment with their funding
priorities and if it's not, thisis not the funding opportunity
(27:18):
for you and if it's not, this isnot the funding opportunity for
you.
Stop, take the time and findanother grant that fits your
project perfectly.
I always believe that there'ssomething out there that can
fund your mission.
There's some kind of fundingout there that can help you get
your mission and vision off theground.
You just have to be diligentand take the time to find that
(27:47):
funding.
I and then I would say if youknow that there is alignment and
this is a perfect fit, likethey're funding priorities
aligned directly with what youwant to do, then I would say to
make sure that you have a strongneed statement.
You know needs, your projectdescription, all of that right,
because you can't have a grantproposal without some type of
problem or something you'retrying to solve.
So it's going to be veryimportant that you know what the
(28:10):
problem is in your communityand then how your project or
program is going to be thesolution to that specific
problem.
And then making sure that youknow what success looks like,
like what success metrics willyou put in place, because you
can't just say, oh, we're gonnaserve 20 people, but then what
(28:32):
else are you going to be doing,right?
So what?
Oh, we're gonna serve people.
You need to be specific.
We're gonna serve this manypeople.
We're gonna do these things by2025, end of 2025, we we're
going to do these things.
You know, by 2025, end of 2025,we're going to be able to do
these things.
(28:54):
So you need to make sure yourmetrics are measurable, your
goals and objectives are clearabout what action sustainability
sustainability, because youhave to think about how are you
going to sustain this program orproject beyond the grant funds.
There's going to be a time thatyou're going to spend all the
(29:16):
money and if you don't have aplan in place that says, once we
spent this money or we've donethis, we're going to continue
this project by doing X, y, z.
You know, do you have otherfunding that you're going to
work?
You know, do you have otherfunding in place that you're
going to use to keep this going?
Do you have some partnershipsthat you have in place?
(29:38):
You want to.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Also, when you talk about sustainability, you also
want to go beyond just securingadditional funding, but you also
want to leverage yourpartnerships and collaborations
with other agencies as well yes,this is perfect, guys, because
I see this a lot where, um in inthe narrative, we're not
(30:00):
describing what those measurableoutcomes will be, what specific
outcomes will happen because ofthis money.
So, for instance, I'm going togive you an example, right, um,
I sit on on on two boards herein my local area.
One is a children's non-profit,one is about domestic violence
and sexual assault, and the oneone for domestic violence.
(30:22):
We are working on building atransitional housing, a women's
shelter, here in this area.
So, as we talk about, as we goout, and we talk about what it
is that we're trying to do, whatoutcome are we looking to
accomplish with thistransitional housing?
Well, it's several things, andI'm going to give you specific
(30:45):
examples, and this is these arethe things that you need to keep
in mind as you're writing yourproposals.
You need specifics, right?
So'm going to give you let mefind it, because I don't want to
(31:07):
tell you the wrong things, butTexas is seventh in the nation
when it comes to femicide, whichis death by an intimate partner
.
And so that's in the top 10.
That's ridiculous, right, inthis area alone we have two
(31:32):
counties.
We have San Patricio andAransas County, right, and so
we're considered rural areas.
The closest shelter is about 45minutes away going to Corpus.
The closest shelter is about 45minutes away going to Corpus or
about an hour away in Victoria.
And so our goal is to be ableto have women to be able to stay
in their community wherethey're supported, where their
(31:54):
children are already in school,already enrolled, where they
want to maintain a sense ofnormalcy for their children's
lives and for their own lives.
Right, they want to get awayfrom their abuser, but they
don't want to be removed fromthe community.
Now, sometimes being removed isnecessary, but not always.
But what outcomes are wespecifically looking for?
(32:17):
So we are going to help womento be self-sufficient, because
what we understand is that whenwomen are in these abusive
relationships, control has ledthe relationship mainly on the
abuser's part, so they're notreally good with money.
So we have financial literacy,legal advocacy so that they can
(32:40):
get some assistance with legallydetaching themselves from this
person.
Also the life skills program,where they get some parenting
classes.
This is a partnership with thechildren's organization that
comes in to help with that.
And so these are specificexamples, guys, of specific
(33:03):
outcomes that we're looking toachieve, and these are the
things that you have to outlinein your narrative that supports
what you need this funding for,because legal fees ain't cheap.
They are not.
Lawyers do not come cheap.
So that's one thing.
(33:24):
Right.
When we talk about financialliteracy, right, that's
something that we can a workshopthat we can hold, but we have
to pay the facilitator.
Right.
When we talk about anindependent life skills program,
we have to pay for thelicensing for that actual
program itself.
So these are all things that I'mgiving you specific outcomes,
(33:47):
what they will achieve becauseof these programs, why there is
a cost, why they're able to getaccess to these things.
So these are the things thatmake a strong grant proposal.
(34:09):
Those are the specifics and howyou sort of outline those
things and talk about thosethings in your grant proposal,
and a lot of times you have tobe able to do it within a
certain amount of words, so Ican help you with those things.
But let me tell you somethingyeah, don't go to AI and say put
in a question, it gives you ananswer, and then you copy and
(34:31):
paste that thank you, Iappreciate you saying that on
record, please.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Technology has its place, but, yes, don't depend on
AI to write your review.
You want your project betterthan AI or anyone else, and if
you can't put it in your ownwords, then, yeah, that can be a
problem.
But you need to be able tocommunicate what the impact is
(34:58):
going to be and what you'regoing to do and what you're
seeking to accomplish.
But don't just put a sentencein and expect AI to give you a
wonderful answer, because one ofthe things it won't be able to
do is give you specifics and thedetail, like you just mentioned
.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Right, because it doesn't know those details.
I know those details AI doesn'tknow.
It can give me suggestions ifI'm feeling stuck and then I can
go take those suggestions.
Just like the sentence starterswhen we were like in first,
second grade and your teacherhad those little things around
the classroom to help you startyour sentences when you need to
(35:34):
write your sentences right.
And so that's what AI is.
It is just a thought partner togive you some ideas so that you
can elaborate on these things,but it don't don't use it to do
the work for you.
Yes, because we can detect that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Yeah, and I won't be surprised that there will be
software eventually out herethat when funders might be able
to do that and they may bealready something out there they
can detect that.
But I mean, ai is, is very.
There's some common words Iwould tell people to trick.
Take out, take a look at someof the common words that ai uses
and that might give some peoplea clue about.
Maybe you want to avoid thesewords, um, but come up with the
(36:17):
idea and you can always use itto.
You know, maybe if you got somegrammar situation or something,
you need to just tighten up orsomething like that, but not to
write your whole proposal.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Absolutely, I agree.
Yeah, well, this was.
This was super, super fun forme because, as y'all know, grant
writing is my jam, but alsojust but also just supporting
nonprofits and helping them tohave a greater impact in their
community.
Those are things I really loveto do, so I really appreciate
you, Althea.
(36:49):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Thank you so much, frank, for having me.
This has been so wonderful.
It's good to have thisconversation because this is
such an important topic andpeople need to understand the
ethics about grant writing andwhat you can and cannot do.
And paying a grant writer afterthe fact is something that no
grant writer should be doing.
Whether you seasoned orestablished or or just starting
(37:15):
out, make sure you don't getpaid after the fact in terms of
excuse me, once, once the grantis funded, that you wait to get
funded to get paid.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Because if it's not funded, then what happens?
What happens to all this workand there's a number of reasons
why grants don't get funded.
It isn't necessarily yourproposal wasn't good enough.
Perhaps they didn't have enoughfunding to give to everybody,
and that's typically whathappens.
But if you, if you continue toreach out to that organization,
(37:51):
you start to form relationshipswith, with, with their board
members, their staff members,the review board then, and they
start to learn more and moreabout your program and what it
is that you're doing, you willeventually get funded.
It takes some, some time, someeffort, some consistency, but
it's not always because yourproposal wasn't good enough that
you didn't get funded.
(38:11):
Yeah, you know, most times it'ssimply because there was not
enough to go around foreverybody.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
That's exactly right and, like you said, you served
on a lot of these review panelsand that is something that's
beyond your control.
You know, in terms of you know,if the funder receives so many
grants and if yours didn't riseto the level of excellence, you
might have had a great proposal.
Might have been wonderful, butthere was just so many
(38:39):
applications and, like you said,there's only so much money that
can go around.
And you know I always tellpeople this is that even if your
grant is not funded, you shouldalways get the reviewer
comments back.
And you should always get themback even if you are funded,
because that is a way for you tobe able to strengthen your
proposal.
Just because you were fundeddoesn't mean everything was
(39:01):
perfect either.
There could still be someweaknesses that you need to
identify in your application.
So always get the reviewercomments if the funder will make
them available absolutely.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Some organizations offer that, some don't, um, and
if they don't, then you just gotto keep it moving.
But always ask, and if they get, if they're willing to give you
feedback, then, um, you know,take that feedback and use it
with the next one that you'regoing to write, but I truly
appreciate you being here.
Althea, anyone, if anyone,wants to get in touch with you,
(39:34):
um, how do they?
Speaker 2 (39:35):
do that.
Yeah, so they can reach me atmy email is contact at lewis
l-e-w-i-s.
As in sam grant writing, allone word dot com.
So contact at lewis grantwriting dot com.
You can follow me on linkedinalthea a-l-t.
As in tom h-e-a, lewis um.
(39:56):
Also on instagram is lewis thenumber four grants with an S as
well, so excited to reach out.
If they can reach out to me,I'll be more than happy to
answer any questions.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
Absolutely, and I'll be sure to link this in the
notes online for you guys, andalso any upcoming events or any
things you have going on, altheathat you want to talk about
yeah, and since we and since wewere talking about, you know,
building capacity.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
One of the things that I'm doing right now, given
this current grant you knowlandscape for grants and things
like that I am offering my grantwriting academy.
This is the second cohort.
It starts on May 12th and ithas an option for people to
learn how to write grants.
It is a one-on-one coachingacademy, so it's not like you're
(40:44):
in a class with 10 other people, but it's one-on-one where I am
providing that one-on-onecoaching and feedback, giving
you reviews on your grant asyou're writing it, and it also
comes with video lectures aswell and handbooks and resources
to help you write a grant.
So there is the one-on-onecoaching uh cool, uh.
(41:06):
Part to it, and then there'salso a self-paced part.
Some people say, hey, I knowhow to do that, just need a good
refresher.
Then that is something youmight want to invest in.
So that opens up on may 12thand I'm excited to to get this
next cohort off the ground.
So, and I'm excited to get thisnext cohort off the ground.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
So definitely looking forward to doing it, and that
sounds really good, like havingthat one-on-one support when
you're writing something and tohave somebody to be able to
review it and say, hey, this isgood.
Or come back to you and say,hey, you might want to change
this up before you turn it in.
That's always good to have asecond set of eyes, and so,
whether you're a seasoned grantwriter or you're just coming
into the game, it's always goodto get that little refresher,
(41:48):
because the grant writinglandscape changes so much so
often, so you just never knowwhat's going on in the grant
writing world.
So that's awesome, and againguys, all of this is going to be
linked in the notes and so youcan look in there and click on
the links and reach out toAlthea.
I'll have all of her socialmedia handles on there for you
(42:09):
guys and once again, thanksAlthea for being here.
I appreciate you guys forlistening and tuning in this
week and until next time, guys,on the Spring Forward podcast.
Bye-bye.
Hey, nonprofit friends, welcome to the Spring
Forward podcast, where we talkabout all things nonprofit, from
board discord to grant writingand strategic planning tips.
If you're an executive director, nonprofit board member or just
someone heavily involved in thenonprofit sector, then this is
the podcast for you.
Let's spring forward intoexcellence, and this is the
(00:31):
podcast for you.
Let's spring forward intoexcellence.
Welcome, welcome everyone toanother episode of the Spring
Forward podcast.
I'm your host, SpringRichardson Perry, and I'm super
excited today to be talking toyou guys about the ethics of
grant writing.
Recently there's been somethings happening in the grant
writing world, in the nonprofitworld, and I really want to lift
(00:51):
some things up and bring it tolight.
And to help me talk about thattoday I have Ms Athea Lewis.
She is the president of LewisGrant Writing Services, excuse
me and she has a master's degreein business administration and
is currently pursuing a doctoraldegree in educational
leadership let's go, girl andshe has a certificate, or is
(01:14):
pursuing her certificate, innonprofit management as well.
She has over 20 yearsexperience in grant writing and
has successfully secured over$50 million in grant funding for
nonprofits, faith-basedorganizations, school districts
and universities.
She currently teaches variousgrant writing and nonprofit
seminars through the SmallBusiness Center for over a dozen
(01:36):
local community colleges, andshe serves as a peer reviewer
for several federal agencies.
So clearly this is the one youwant on your team, guys, All
right.
So I'm super excited to bringher on today.
She's been at, she's presentedat, several conferences
nationwide, such as the NationalCouncil of University Research
(01:57):
Administrators, GrantProfessionals Association and
the Hampton University MinistersConference.
So, without further ado, let uswelcome Ms Althea Lewis.
Hi, Althea.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Hi Spring, how are you doing?
I am well.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Thank you so much for being here.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (02:17):
today I'm doing well.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm so excited.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
I am super excited to talk about this because when I
first reached out to you, youknow, something kind of weird
happened and I was like is thislike happening, you know, is
this something that's happeningeverywhere?
How often is this happening?
And then it happened again andI was like you know what?
We need to talk about thisbecause, you know, this is
(02:43):
something that I think ishappening more and more in the
grant writing world and we'renot really talking about it.
And what I'm saying, guys, hereis that in the grant writing
world, as grant writingprofessionals, there's a fee for
that right.
There's a fee for service, justfor about anything that you
(03:03):
want someone else to do for you,right?
And so every grant writer hastheir way of working, what their
set price is, what they do forthat price and all those
different things.
But lately I've beenencountering people who ask me
well, can we pay you when we getawarded the grant?
And the professionalassociation of grant writers,
(03:30):
the grant professionalsassociation, they will warn you
against that right.
And so there are a lot ofdifferent associations,
nonprofit associations, grantwriting associations that will
say, well, hey, number one, it'snot really ethical to do it
that way, but number two, likeyou're doing the work, and so,
whether the organization getsawarded the grant or not, you
(03:58):
still need to be compensated forthe work that you've done.
And so we're going to be really, really talking about this
today and lifting this up,because this seems to be more
and more of a common practice,and it really shouldn't be.
And so that's kind of where Iwant to start, althea.
It's like you know what are theethical concerns around that,
(04:19):
where you're only being paid ifthe grant is awarded, and you
know how does that affect thetransparency and the use of
those funds that the grant isactually for?
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yeah, that's an excellent question, Spring, and
really the ethical concerns arecentered around integrity and
trust.
Grant funders really expect usto be, you know, good stewards
of the money that they are, youknow, entrusted to us or any
nonprofits or any organization.
They expect you to spend themoney according to what you said
(04:55):
in the budget.
You know, and more than likely,they're not going to allow you
to put the fee of a grant writerin your budget, okay, and so
they want to see impact.
They want to see their moneybeing used for the community, um
, or things to help get yourproject implemented.
(05:17):
So when it comes to that, it'sreally important that nonprofits
stay focused on their mission.
You know they're.
You know that's why they'rethere, right there.
That's their purpose.
And there's also that concernof the grant writer prioritizing
getting this large commissionor getting all of this money
(05:39):
versus focusing on the missionof their client and helping them
to make a larger impact in thecommunity, and we want to see
those dollars used for thecommunity.
Of course, we know that as agrant writer or any grant
professional, you have to makemoney in order to stay in
business, but that's not the wayto do it.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Absolutely, and I love how you kept centering
around the mission.
Every nonprofit organizationexists because of a specific
mission, because they recognizedthat there was a gap in the
community somewhere.
And so they set out to fill thisgap and that became the mission
(06:25):
of the organization.
And so when you start talkingabout, you know, getting grants
and funding and all thesedifferent things, and you start
talking about paying grantwriters on the back end, well
then that starts to bring upconcerns about how they're going
to write this grant to actuallyget the money, because then it
(06:48):
starts to be like, well, arethey, you know?
Is this truly what theorganization is doing, or what
are the motives that this personhad for even writing this in
the first place?
So that becomes an issue.
But also, I kind of want tocircle back to something else
you said too, when you said thatgrants don't typically allow
for you to put that cost inthere to compensate the grant
(07:12):
writer.
And so there are ways tocompensate your grant writer and
especially if you're going forfederal funding, right, because
in those indirect costs, that'swhat cover those administrative
costs when you're looking atfederal funding.
And sometimes with state andlocal funding, they allow for
(07:33):
those indirect costs too.
But when you're looking atprivate foundations, that's a
whole different ballgame, that'sa whole other story, and the
funds typically are moreflexible in my experience when
it comes to the private sectorand the private foundations that
give out the grant money.
But you have to outline howyou're going to use that money,
(07:57):
and so you know.
It kind of just brings me to,you know, equity in this space,
right?
Yeah, If we're talking aboutthe pay on success model, you
know how is that affecting it?
Speaker 2 (08:16):
you know, well, you know that's a great question too
, because you know, in grantwriting, you know we are, you
know you're expected to havethese high success rates, right.
You know nowhere else in anyother industry.
You know we are, you knowyou're expected to have these
high success rates, right.
You know, nowhere else in anyother industry, you know, for
example, federal grants can takeyou 100 plus hours to write.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Oh my gosh don't even get me started on federal
grants.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Exactly.
And people expect you to havethese high returns on their you
know success rates and hey, whodoesn't want to be successful in
writing grants and federalgrants?
But that's a lot of work to not, of course, be paid for your
work.
So sometimes people say, hey,wait till the grant is funded.
Well, what if the grant is notfunded?
(09:00):
Ok, what if that happens?
Because that rejection happensin this industry.
So you have put all of thissweat equity, all this work in
to that grant proposal and youhaven't, you're not going to get
paid.
So that's an issue, right.
And so you know.
(09:20):
I've heard someone say that whenyou go to the doctor and they
prescribe you a medicine, youdon't tell well, if this doesn't
work or I don't get better, youcan't do my insurance, ok, so
you've got to have that samemindset.
You can't do that with grantwriting, right.
So you have to be able tounderstand that it takes a lot
of work.
(09:41):
Takes a lot of work, but whenit comes to that equity piece
that you were talking about, itcan be a problem, because if a
grant writer is only working onthis contingency basis, they're
going to be looking for theselarge grants so that they can
get a higher commission, and tome, that means you are not
(10:02):
focusing on first of all.
That's not ethical, but you'renot focusing on the right things
.
You're focusing on the moneyversus focusing on first of all.
That's not ethical, but you'renot focusing on the right things
.
You're focusing on the moneyversus focusing on, like I said,
helping your client to obtain.
You know um the course offunding, but you want to help
them to get their mission outthere right.
To focus on the mission.
You need to be mission drivenum, and so it can't be all about
(10:23):
the money.
You know, grant writing goesbeyond that.
It's also about buildingrelationships with some of these
funders.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Yes, and that's one of the biggest things that I
tell my clients is yes, we'regoing to be going after the
money because we need to fundyour mission, and that's why I
got started in this industry inthe first place, because I want
to see these organizations havea greater impact and I want to
(10:50):
be able to help them to have agreater impact.
It's not about the money,because having a greater impact
goes beyond the money.
There are other ways to haveimpact, and that's and that's
what I'm always looking at waysto have impact, and that's what
(11:11):
I'm always looking at.
What else can we do so that youguys have a greater impact in
the community?
So it goes far beyond justwriting grants.
Don't get me wrong, that is asignificant portion of what I do
, but it goes beyond that.
Because, in order for anonprofit organization to be
successful, or a school or youknow, the faith based
(11:32):
organizations because these are,these are the ones who are
typically out there gettingthese grants, looking for these
grants, in order for them tohave the impact that they need
to have, they also need to havea sound structure, internal
structure.
And so those are some of thethings that I help them with as
well, so that they can continueto have a larger impact in the
(11:55):
community.
And when the community seesthat your organization is always
there to serve, then they inturn want to support you, and
that turns into individualcontribution dollars, that turns
into corporate partnerships youknow what I mean.
(12:16):
That turns into partnershipswith other maybe nonprofits or
other organizations in the areawhere you have sort of
complimentary services, right.
And so it's about more thanjust the money and to expect
someone to do all this work.
(12:38):
And, mind you, this is why youwent and got this person to do
the work, because you couldn'tdo it yourself.
Not because you don't know how,but because, simply, you either
don't have the time, maybe youdon't have the know-how or can
really put the words together inan impactful way to you know,
state what it is that you'redoing in your community, right,
(12:58):
but there was a reason why youwent to go seek someone to do
this for you, and the simplefact that you felt that it was
valuable to have an externalperson come in to help you.
Or to hire a full-time grantwriter as a W-2 employee what
have you?
Whatever way you're doing it,they deserve to be compensated
(13:20):
fairly and whatever thatcompensation is, if they're a
contract employee, thenunderstand the way that they
work, how their fees arestructured, and if that's within
your budget or what you're okaywith, go for it.
If it's not, then you need tofind someone that is.
But clearly I'm on a tangentand this is near and dear to my
(13:41):
heart.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
No, this is really tough because you said you said
something so important about theinfrastructure you know, and a
lot of times people don't havethat in place and they just see,
oh, there's money available andthey're not even ready to go
out the grant.
So that's also an issue, too,as well.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
But I want to talk about this because you know in
the beginning, when youmentioned not being able to
write in the grant writer's feeinto most of your grants, you
know, like we said, some federalgrants allow for you to put in
the indirect costs that you canuse to reimburse, compensate or
(14:20):
however you're going to do yourbudget for that particular grant
.
But what are some other waysthat organizations can fund this
?
What are some ways that theycan find the money to pay the
grant writer?
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Yeah, so a lot of times, some nonprofits may have
some general operating fundsfrom other ways, from other
sources.
They may have some unrestrictedfunds.
They may have some donations,other sources, um, they may have
some unrestricted funds.
They may have some donations.
That may be another way to getyou know a lot of non-profits.
That's so important that you'relooking for multiple streams of
(14:53):
income coming in versus justrelying solely on grants, which
is another issue here.
You always want to havemultiple streams of revenue
coming in for your nonprofit,but you have to sustain.
As we look at the currentlandscape right now with grants,
there is some uncertainty aboutthe future even of some of the
federal grants, and so a lot ofpeople are shifting away from
(15:14):
the federal grants.
I'm not saying that they'regoing to be gone forever.
No, they're going to be there.
They may not be as many as theywere in the past, but we have
to think about how other waysyou can fund these kind of
things, and so your foundationmoney is going to be restricted
about, you know, restrictiveabout how you can spend those
funds as well, too.
(15:34):
You're not going to be able to,more than likely, place a grant
writer into the budget now.
There are maybe very fewcapacity building grants out
here that might allow somethinglike that, but that's when I
would be extremely careful aboutthose grants.
You want to get it in writingfrom the funder that this is an
allowable cost, but you want todo everything that you're
(15:58):
supposed to do with the funding.
And it's all about trust.
Nonprofit funders are fundersof nonprofits all these
foundations, federal grants,whoever.
They're looking to know.
They're looking to see if theycan trust you and if they cannot
trust you with their funds, ifyou go and pay a grant writer
and you didn't get permission todo that or it wasn't something
(16:20):
that was allowable, then they'regoing to question well, what
else would you do with our money?
Yes, you know.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
That's just.
That's just like, if you are,if you're in a.
I'm going to give y'all anexample.
Okay, yeah, I was like, so it'sa funny story, because I was in
labor with my baby girl.
It was about two years agoexactly and the school called
(16:53):
and I was like what is going on?
Like they know, I'm in labor,what is happening?
So they were telling a storyabout my daughter.
She had brought a lot of moneyto school that day and they
thought it was very odd, becausethey were like, well, yeah,
because there was a book fairgoing on.
And they were like, well, yeah,it was a book fair, but we know
(17:18):
, ms Perry, you don't reallyoperate like this.
So we just thought it was kindof odd.
So we, you know, we took, wetook the money, we put it in an
envelope, we're going to send itback home with her.
Well, she got into my husband'srainy day fund jar and had a
field day, right.
And so we were like girl, whatare you doing?
(17:39):
What are you thinking?
You know better than this.
You don't just go in there andjust take money.
I'm thinking, oh my gosh, Ihave a criminal on my hands.
This is like, let me get mybail money together for this
child as we get older.
Okay, first of all, extreme, notthe case at all.
This happens.
She can do this, it is okay,she's fine now.
(18:00):
But right then, and there, inthat short time period when
things will go missing, we'relike, oh, did you take it?
You know, and this is howfunders see things right, and
you break that trust and maybeunknowingly you're breaking that
trust.
Is what she did?
She knew she did somethingwrong, but she didn't realize
(18:20):
how big of a deal it was Right.
And so you know, you have to bevery careful with how you do
this because, um, becausefunders want to help you with
your mission.
If, what?
If what you do aligns with whatthey fund, then, uh, if, if
(18:40):
it's, if it's enough moneyavailable to fund all the people
who are asking, who are inalignment with them, then
they're more than likely goingto do it.
But what you outline in thatproposal has to be what you're
spending the money on, and Ithink that's where a lot of
(19:01):
organizations lose sight ofthings they do, and especially
the ones that are smallernonprofits with smaller budgets,
who don't have a larger staff,or they maybe have a program
coordinator.
They may have an accountingperson, program coordinator.
(19:27):
They may have an accountingperson, whether it's a
bookkeeper or a CFO or someonein the finance industry, that is
dedicated to watching the funds.
This may surprise you all, butnot all nonprofit organizations
even have a finance person onstaff Exactly, and so sometimes
the executive director is doingthe best that they know how to
(19:48):
do in terms of carrying out themission, using the money
appropriately, and sometimesthings just kind of fall through
the cracks.
And then, when the funders askfor their report and ask for,
you know, a printout of how youuse the funds, and they're going
through it with their finetooth comb, they're like wait a
(20:10):
minute, that's not what you saidin this proposal.
So now they're going to saysome some put you on a list and
you can't ever.
So now they're going to saysome some put you on a list and
you can't ever, you know, applyagain.
Some say, ok, you have to waittwo years, three years, maybe
five years before you canreapply.
And so you just, you just haveto be very careful.
(20:39):
But but also, I want to talkabout this too, because you
mentioned capacity buildinggrants, right, and I actually
saw a lot of those last year.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
But, with the new administration they put,
building grants are exactly whatthe name says it builds your
capacity to be able to carry outyour mission Right.
So sometimes a lot of thesesmall nonprofits especially them
, even some larger ones can getthem, of course, but these small
nonprofits may not have theability to, like you said, write
(21:29):
a grant.
Maybe they don't have theirboard fully developed, maybe
their board needs some training,maybe you might need to
purchase some type of equipmentor technology, so in order to
get your project off the groundright.
And so these grants arespecifically to help to
(21:49):
strengthen your capacity or you,and to make that, of course,
that large impact in thecommunity.
But there's, you know,specifically designated to help
to strengthen your capacity tocarry out your project.
But, like I said, you're goingto find some that are going to
more focus on, of course, likeyour board development.
Like I said, I've seen one ortwo here that might allow a
(22:11):
grant writer.
But, like I said, you want tobe extremely careful to make
sure that, even with thesecapacity building grants, that
you are using them in thecapacity that should be used,
and so you still want to be, youknow, extra careful.
But, like I said, it isdefinitely for organizations
that don't have theinfrastructure in place that
(22:32):
they need in order to getstarted, and a lot of funders
understand that that noteveryone starts out at the same
level, at the same playing field, right, some nonprofits need
that extra support they need fortheir maybe their board doesn't
have the knowledge that theyneed in order to help run the
(22:53):
nonprofit.
You know, investing in somekind of training like that,
maybe they can help pay forstaff development.
Maybe your staff you have a newexecutive director that doesn't
have the knowledge.
Like you said, they may be doingall that they can just to keep
things afloat, but maybe theydon't have the skills of how to
know how to write a grant, maybethat can help to build the
(23:16):
capacity of your staff, of yourorganization, your board.
So those are ways that you canuse those grants.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Absolutely, and I love you know how you really
define this, because it isreally just that simple y'all.
Capacity building grants are tobuild your capacity to be able
to carry out your mission.
So whatever that looks likeright, your board has to be
trained.
They have to understand whattheir role is in governance of
(23:47):
the organization and I find alot of times board members are
comprised of good people thatwant to do good work but they
don't understand what it meansto actually be on the board of a
nonprofit organization,understand what it means to
actually be on the board of anonprofit organization, and that
(24:09):
looks very different.
If you were on the board of adirectors for a for-profit
organization, you know.
One of the most obvious ways isthat sometimes for-profit
boards are compensated, whereasin nonprofit boards they're
often not.
They can be it's not illegal,it has to be disclosed but
oftentimes they're notcompensated as a board member of
a nonprofit organization.
(24:31):
But there are stark differencesin for-profit boards and
nonprofit boards and a capacitybuilding grant Sometimes I've
seen these as well that canbuild capacity for your board so
that they can be the steeringcommittee of the organization in
(24:52):
the appropriate way.
So there's grants out therethat can help with those things.
But again, if you're thinkingof hiring a grant writer, you
have to make sure that youunderstand how that grant writer
works.
You have to understand whattheir fees are, what that
(25:13):
structure looks like.
And then you have to I mean youhave to either you agree to it
or you don't.
And if you don't, then you knowmove on and find someone who
fits into your budget.
But you cannot expect thatsomeone is going to work on a
contingency basis or for free orfor free at all, because
(25:34):
because there's a lot of workthat goes into writing these
grants, and this is kind of whatI want to segue into here.
Althea, is, you've been onreview boards and having to, you
know, review grants, whetherthey get awarded or not, and
I've been in that capacity aswell.
(25:54):
And so I want to kind of shiftand talk about what makes a
strong grant proposal, because,for our listeners, I think this
will be super helpful for them,for the ones who are trying to
do it all, wearing all the hatsthat need to figure out okay, I
can't afford a grant writerright now, so I need to figure
out how I'm going to do this andwrite these grants in an
(26:16):
impactful way.
So how can they do that?
What makes a strong grantproposal?
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Excellent question.
I would say first of all, youwant to follow the directions.
That is the golden rule ingrant writing Follow the
direction.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
No, that sounds like the craziest thing to say, but
I'm telling you, when you'vebeen on a review board, a grant
review board, I look at thedirections and you look at board
.
You will look at the directionsand you'll look at the proposal
and you'll look at thedirections again and you'll be
like well, I know, I said, maybeI'm reading this wrong because
that's not what they did.
And so, yes, follow directions.
(26:53):
This is the most basic thing,right?
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Yes, because that is a sure way of your grant more
than likely getting rejected.
More than likely OK.
So I would say, after you haveread the directions and follow
the directions, making sure thatthere is alignment with what
the funder is looking to fund.
If you're a project inalignment with their funding
priorities and if it's not, thisis not the funding opportunity
(27:18):
for you and if it's not, this isnot the funding opportunity for
you.
Stop, take the time and findanother grant that fits your
project perfectly.
I always believe that there'ssomething out there that can
fund your mission.
There's some kind of fundingout there that can help you get
your mission and vision off theground.
You just have to be diligentand take the time to find that
(27:47):
funding.
I and then I would say if youknow that there is alignment and
this is a perfect fit, likethey're funding priorities
aligned directly with what youwant to do, then I would say to
make sure that you have a strongneed statement.
You know needs, your projectdescription, all of that right,
because you can't have a grantproposal without some type of
problem or something you'retrying to solve.
So it's going to be veryimportant that you know what the
(28:10):
problem is in your communityand then how your project or
program is going to be thesolution to that specific
problem.
And then making sure that youknow what success looks like,
like what success metrics willyou put in place, because you
can't just say, oh, we're gonnaserve 20 people, but then what
(28:32):
else are you going to be doing,right?
So what?
Oh, we're gonna serve people.
You need to be specific.
We're gonna serve this manypeople.
We're gonna do these things by2025, end of 2025, we we're
going to do these things.
You know, by 2025, end of 2025,we're going to be able to do
these things.
(28:54):
So you need to make sure yourmetrics are measurable, your
goals and objectives are clearabout what action sustainability
sustainability, because youhave to think about how are you
going to sustain this program orproject beyond the grant funds.
There's going to be a time thatyou're going to spend all the
(29:16):
money and if you don't have aplan in place that says, once we
spent this money or we've donethis, we're going to continue
this project by doing X, y, z.
You know, do you have otherfunding that you're going to
work?
You know, do you have otherfunding in place that you're
going to use to keep this going?
Do you have some partnershipsthat you have in place?
(29:38):
You want to.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Also, when you talk about sustainability, you also
want to go beyond just securingadditional funding, but you also
want to leverage yourpartnerships and collaborations
with other agencies as well yes,this is perfect, guys, because
I see this a lot where, um in inthe narrative, we're not
(30:00):
describing what those measurableoutcomes will be, what specific
outcomes will happen because ofthis money.
So, for instance, I'm going togive you an example, right, um,
I sit on on on two boards herein my local area.
One is a children's non-profit,one is about domestic violence
and sexual assault, and the oneone for domestic violence.
(30:22):
We are working on building atransitional housing, a women's
shelter, here in this area.
So, as we talk about, as we goout, and we talk about what it
is that we're trying to do, whatoutcome are we looking to
accomplish with thistransitional housing?
Well, it's several things, andI'm going to give you specific
(30:45):
examples, and this is these arethe things that you need to keep
in mind as you're writing yourproposals.
You need specifics, right?
So'm going to give you let mefind it, because I don't want to
(31:07):
tell you the wrong things, butTexas is seventh in the nation
when it comes to femicide, whichis death by an intimate partner
.
And so that's in the top 10.
That's ridiculous, right, inthis area alone we have two
(31:32):
counties.
We have San Patricio andAransas County, right, and so
we're considered rural areas.
The closest shelter is about 45minutes away going to Corpus.
The closest shelter is about 45minutes away going to Corpus or
about an hour away in Victoria.
And so our goal is to be ableto have women to be able to stay
in their community wherethey're supported, where their
(31:54):
children are already in school,already enrolled, where they
want to maintain a sense ofnormalcy for their children's
lives and for their own lives.
Right, they want to get awayfrom their abuser, but they
don't want to be removed fromthe community.
Now, sometimes being removed isnecessary, but not always.
But what outcomes are wespecifically looking for?
(32:17):
So we are going to help womento be self-sufficient, because
what we understand is that whenwomen are in these abusive
relationships, control has ledthe relationship mainly on the
abuser's part, so they're notreally good with money.
So we have financial literacy,legal advocacy so that they can
(32:40):
get some assistance with legallydetaching themselves from this
person.
Also the life skills program,where they get some parenting
classes.
This is a partnership with thechildren's organization that
comes in to help with that.
And so these are specificexamples, guys, of specific
(33:03):
outcomes that we're looking toachieve, and these are the
things that you have to outlinein your narrative that supports
what you need this funding for,because legal fees ain't cheap.
They are not.
Lawyers do not come cheap.
So that's one thing.
(33:24):
Right.
When we talk about financialliteracy, right, that's
something that we can a workshopthat we can hold, but we have
to pay the facilitator.
Right.
When we talk about anindependent life skills program,
we have to pay for thelicensing for that actual
program itself.
So these are all things that I'mgiving you specific outcomes,
(33:47):
what they will achieve becauseof these programs, why there is
a cost, why they're able to getaccess to these things.
So these are the things thatmake a strong grant proposal.
(34:09):
Those are the specifics and howyou sort of outline those
things and talk about thosethings in your grant proposal,
and a lot of times you have tobe able to do it within a
certain amount of words, so Ican help you with those things.
But let me tell you somethingyeah, don't go to AI and say put
in a question, it gives you ananswer, and then you copy and
(34:31):
paste that thank you, Iappreciate you saying that on
record, please.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Technology has its place, but, yes, don't depend on
AI to write your review.
You want your project betterthan AI or anyone else, and if
you can't put it in your ownwords, then, yeah, that can be a
problem.
But you need to be able tocommunicate what the impact is
(34:58):
going to be and what you'regoing to do and what you're
seeking to accomplish.
But don't just put a sentencein and expect AI to give you a
wonderful answer, because one ofthe things it won't be able to
do is give you specifics and thedetail, like you just mentioned
.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Right, because it doesn't know those details.
I know those details AI doesn'tknow.
It can give me suggestions ifI'm feeling stuck and then I can
go take those suggestions.
Just like the sentence starterswhen we were like in first,
second grade and your teacherhad those little things around
the classroom to help you startyour sentences when you need to
(35:34):
write your sentences right.
And so that's what AI is.
It is just a thought partner togive you some ideas so that you
can elaborate on these things,but it don't don't use it to do
the work for you.
Yes, because we can detect that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Yeah, and I won't be surprised that there will be
software eventually out herethat when funders might be able
to do that and they may bealready something out there they
can detect that.
But I mean, ai is, is very.
There's some common words Iwould tell people to trick.
Take out, take a look at someof the common words that ai uses
and that might give some peoplea clue about.
Maybe you want to avoid thesewords, um, but come up with the
(36:17):
idea and you can always use itto.
You know, maybe if you got somegrammar situation or something,
you need to just tighten up orsomething like that, but not to
write your whole proposal.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Absolutely, I agree.
Yeah, well, this was.
This was super, super fun forme because, as y'all know, grant
writing is my jam, but alsojust but also just supporting
nonprofits and helping them tohave a greater impact in their
community.
Those are things I really loveto do, so I really appreciate
you, Althea.
(36:49):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Thank you so much, frank, for having me.
This has been so wonderful.
It's good to have thisconversation because this is
such an important topic andpeople need to understand the
ethics about grant writing andwhat you can and cannot do.
And paying a grant writer afterthe fact is something that no
grant writer should be doing.
Whether you seasoned orestablished or or just starting
(37:15):
out, make sure you don't getpaid after the fact in terms of
excuse me, once, once the grantis funded, that you wait to get
funded to get paid.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Because if it's not funded, then what happens?
What happens to all this workand there's a number of reasons
why grants don't get funded.
It isn't necessarily yourproposal wasn't good enough.
Perhaps they didn't have enoughfunding to give to everybody,
and that's typically whathappens.
But if you, if you continue toreach out to that organization,
(37:51):
you start to form relationshipswith, with, with their board
members, their staff members,the review board then, and they
start to learn more and moreabout your program and what it
is that you're doing, you willeventually get funded.
It takes some, some time, someeffort, some consistency, but
it's not always because yourproposal wasn't good enough that
you didn't get funded.
(38:11):
Yeah, you know, most times it'ssimply because there was not
enough to go around foreverybody.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
That's exactly right and, like you said, you served
on a lot of these review panelsand that is something that's
beyond your control.
You know, in terms of you know,if the funder receives so many
grants and if yours didn't riseto the level of excellence, you
might have had a great proposal.
Might have been wonderful, butthere was just so many
(38:39):
applications and, like you said,there's only so much money that
can go around.
And you know I always tellpeople this is that even if your
grant is not funded, you shouldalways get the reviewer
comments back.
And you should always get themback even if you are funded,
because that is a way for you tobe able to strengthen your
proposal.
Just because you were fundeddoesn't mean everything was
(39:01):
perfect either.
There could still be someweaknesses that you need to
identify in your application.
So always get the reviewercomments if the funder will make
them available absolutely.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Some organizations offer that, some don't, um, and
if they don't, then you just gotto keep it moving.
But always ask, and if they get, if they're willing to give you
feedback, then, um, you know,take that feedback and use it
with the next one that you'regoing to write, but I truly
appreciate you being here.
Althea, anyone, if anyone,wants to get in touch with you,
(39:34):
um, how do they?
Speaker 2 (39:35):
do that.
Yeah, so they can reach me atmy email is contact at lewis
l-e-w-i-s.
As in sam grant writing, allone word dot com.
So contact at lewis grantwriting dot com.
You can follow me on linkedinalthea a-l-t.
As in tom h-e-a, lewis um.
(39:56):
Also on instagram is lewis thenumber four grants with an S as
well, so excited to reach out.
If they can reach out to me,I'll be more than happy to
answer any questions.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
Absolutely, and I'll be sure to link this in the
notes online for you guys, andalso any upcoming events or any
things you have going on, altheathat you want to talk about
yeah, and since we and since wewere talking about, you know,
building capacity.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
One of the things that I'm doing right now, given
this current grant you knowlandscape for grants and things
like that I am offering my grantwriting academy.
This is the second cohort.
It starts on May 12th and ithas an option for people to
learn how to write grants.
It is a one-on-one coachingacademy, so it's not like you're
(40:44):
in a class with 10 other people, but it's one-on-one where I am
providing that one-on-onecoaching and feedback, giving
you reviews on your grant asyou're writing it, and it also
comes with video lectures aswell and handbooks and resources
to help you write a grant.
So there is the one-on-onecoaching uh cool, uh.
(41:06):
Part to it, and then there'salso a self-paced part.
Some people say, hey, I knowhow to do that, just need a good
refresher.
Then that is something youmight want to invest in.
So that opens up on may 12thand I'm excited to to get this
next cohort off the ground.
So, and I'm excited to get thisnext cohort off the ground.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
So definitely looking forward to doing it, and that
sounds really good, like havingthat one-on-one support when
you're writing something and tohave somebody to be able to
review it and say, hey, this isgood.
Or come back to you and say,hey, you might want to change
this up before you turn it in.
That's always good to have asecond set of eyes, and so,
whether you're a seasoned grantwriter or you're just coming
into the game, it's always goodto get that little refresher,
(41:48):
because the grant writinglandscape changes so much so
often, so you just never knowwhat's going on in the grant
writing world.
So that's awesome, and againguys, all of this is going to be
linked in the notes and so youcan look in there and click on
the links and reach out toAlthea.
I'll have all of her socialmedia handles on there for you
(42:09):
guys and once again, thanksAlthea for being here.
I appreciate you guys forlistening and tuning in this
week and until next time, guys,on the Spring Forward podcast.
Bye-bye.
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