April 1, 2025 • 37 mins
Finding and keeping exceptional nonprofit talent requires both competitive compensation and a winning organizational mindset that values staff wellbeing as much as client outcomes. Dan Leal joins Spring Richardson Perry to share wisdom from his 20+ years of nonprofit leadership experience.
• Nonprofit compensation packages must include competitive salaries, quality health benefits (including mental health), and retirement planning
• Boards should shift from a scarcity mindset to a "winning mindset" when approaching organizational finances and hiring
• When hiring executives, look beyond impressive resumes to assess intangible leadership qualities through behavioral interviewing
• Creating diverse organizations begins with heart-centered authentic commitment rather than performative language
• Use technology thoughtfully in hiring processes and maintain human judgment rather than over-relying on automated screening
• Take time with hiring decisions—your people are your organization's most precious resource
If you want to connect with Dan Leal, find him on LinkedIn or email him at dan@seedlingmentors.org.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey, nonprofit friends, welcome to the Spring
Forward podcast, where we talkabout all things nonprofit, from
board discord to grant writingand strategic planning tips.
If you're an executive director, nonprofit board member or just
someone heavily involved in thenonprofit sector, then this is
the podcast for you.
Let's spring forward intoexcellence, and this is the
(00:25):
podcast for you.
Let's spring forward intoexcellence.
Welcome, welcome everyone toanother episode of the Spring
Forward podcast.
I'm your host, SpringRichardson Perry, and today I am
super excited to be talking toyou guys about hiring and
retention in the nonprofitsector.
This is going to be a good one,because we are always talking
(00:49):
about employee engagement orlooking for ways to get good
talent in the nonprofit sector,and I have back with us today
once again Dan Leal, who hasbeen in the nonprofit world
since 2002.
He is currently the CEO ofSeedling and he is just a
wonderful, wonderful person toget to talk to about the
(01:13):
nonprofit sector and all thethings going on.
So I'm excited to talk to youtoday, Dan.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (01:19):
I am really, really great and I'm just excited to
talk about one of my favoritetopics with you today.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
So this is going to be fun, this is going to be
awesome.
I want to start with talkingabout just talent in general.
Right, because in the nonprofitsector it always seems like
it's a little harder to attractgood talent because of the
salary ranges, right, and so inthe private sector, if I was a
development director, whichwould be the equivalent of a
(01:54):
salesperson, I would be makingmaybe six figures, depending on
where I was at, what company Iwas in.
Right, I would be expected tomake that much.
But in the nonprofit sector Iwas looking today actually at
what a development directormakes.
The US national average isanywhere from 80,000 to 120,000.
So if you're at a largernonprofit, you may be on the
(02:17):
higher side, which could becomparable to the private sector
, but if you're at a smallernonprofit, you can go to the
private sector and make moremoney.
So how do we attract this toptalent who's going to be really
good at what they do, but alsocompensate them fairly in the
nonprofit world?
Speaker 2 (02:37):
So twofold answer to that.
Because it's both things right.
So one is the compensation, sowe'll talk about that first.
Because it's both things right,so one is the compensation, so
we'll talk about that first.
And we have to educate ourboards of directors.
Even though the boards may notbe looking at the specific
salary of the staff other thancertainly the executive director
(02:57):
or CEO, the board sets thestage for sure with the
executive director CEOcompensation, the stage for sure
with the executive director ceocompensation.
Some boards do look at salaryranges and certainly the board
is approving the overall budgetfor the organization.
But as the ceo executivedirector, you've got to set that
culture and that expectationwith your board that we're going
(03:19):
to compensate our staff.
Well, obviously, behind that isthe ability of the nonprofit to
be sustainable in raising money.
And you've got to beintentional on the fundraising
side regarding or excuse me, onthe benefit side, regarding the
full package, when we're talkingabout compensation.
(03:40):
So you're talking about theannual salary and constantly
making efforts to do cost ofliving increases at minimum, if
not bonuses, keeping your eye onlocal sector comparables but
always wanting to be the best inthose local sector comparables.
And also that full packageincludes health insurance and
(04:02):
what that looks like inproviding a good health
insurance.
And then thirdly and I'm goingto pause before we talk about
culture, so I can take a breathand let you see if anything I
said leads you to anything else.
But I haven't forgotten aboutthe culture, because that's a
whole topic too.
But also the retirement is veryimportant because, because we
(04:23):
want our employees as nonprofitsto be set up for their future
as well, nonprofit employeesshould not have to suffer in the
future while they're doinggreat things today.
And then, lastly, on thecompensation side is mental
health is a big deal, so you gotto have a mental health package
(04:45):
built in within your nonprofittoo.
So those are the four things,just purely on the money side,
that I can think of.
I may have missed some, but I'mgoing salary, I'm going raises
or cost of living, I'm goinghealth, I'm going retirement,
and then back on the health.
(05:05):
The fourth one would actuallybe the mental health tied in
with that health package.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Yeah, Total compensation package matters and
especially when you havemultiple offers that you're
considering, you may take alesser salary because you get
these premium health benefits oryou may take lesser health
benefits because you get thislarger salary that can cover
(05:30):
that.
And so I totally understandexactly what you're saying here
and I really want to bring itback to the benefits themselves.
Because, as an organization,right, you want to, like you
said, you want to compensateyour employees fairly, you want
to set them up for success inthe future, and so you have to
(05:52):
be able to communicate thateffectively to your board,
because if we're not settingthese salaries up in the
beginning to where we canattract good talent but also
sustain this for the future,then there's going to be a
problem with the organization asa whole.
And benefits, oh my gosh, likehealth insurance, is ridiculous.
(06:19):
It's ridiculous, but it's oneof those things that will make
or break an offer for someone.
So you have to be able to finda balance.
And you know, I love when yousaid culture as well, because
the culture of the organizationmatters, especially if I'm
(06:41):
expecting someone to take a paycut to come and work for me.
Well, if they're taking a paycut, they're coming to a toxic
work environment, they don'thave any benefits, they don't
get a retirement plan, what's init for them, and this is what I
see in nonprofit organizationsand their excuses.
Well, we're a nonprofit, wecan't afford that.
(07:03):
You better figure it out,because you won't be anything if
you don't have people to helpyou carry forward this mission.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
That's right.
And you know what, when youhave a nonprofit, one of the
biggest mistakes that anonprofit can make is operating
that nonprofit from a positionof let's not lose, instead of
operating the nonprofit from astandpoint of let's win.
Because you know what?
We want our clients at ournonprofits to win.
(07:35):
We want them to advance intheir lives and no matter what
service we provide, even if it'san emergency basic need, we
want them to.
You know, help them avoid, youknow, homelessness, and that
temporarily.
But ultimately we want them tobe economically self-sufficient.
So shouldn't our nonprofitsoperate the same way?
(07:58):
Instead of a losing mindset,let's move towards a winning
mindset, not that we're less,than because that actually feeds
into the culture.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
I totally agree with you, and when we start thinking
with a scarcity mindset, westart reacting in that way
instead of being proactive inwhat we can do.
So I completely agree with youhere.
So I'm thinking too, danbecause this has a lot to do
with the executive leadership inthe organization as well how
(08:32):
they set these things up forsuccess, how they frame this
with their board.
But when the board is lookingto hire executive leadership
right, how does that that work?
Speaker 2 (08:45):
talk to me about that so there's got to be really
advanced um work in terms ofvetting the executive director,
and it goes even deeper than thenumbers.
You know you can.
You want your person to haveexperiences in your field of
work, sure, but this person hasto show evidence, when you're
(09:09):
hiring the executive director,of having a track record of
success in fundraising, being agood steward of funds and also
taking good care of their people.
And also taking good care oftheir people and also, like
there's intangibles that you'vegot to figure out as a board
(09:30):
when you're interviewing theexecutive director.
That will feed into a goodculture.
Really digging deep into howdoes this nonprofit CEO handle
(09:51):
stress themselves, what are theways that they handle it when
things are going not so well,because there's a lot of things
that can happen that can createthat.
How do you respond to crisis?
But you've got to really digdeep.
When you're using a recruitingfirm, you've got to make sure
that they're digging deep anddoing screening and asking some
of these intangible questions,because it's not always in the
(10:11):
numbers.
People can dress up theirresume real nice and they can
look good from.
You know, coming from a bigorganization that had this many
millions of dollars and all that, but that doesn't mean that
that doesn't mean they did agreat job, nor does it mean that
they did a good job taking careof their people.
So you've got to dig way deepbehind the numbers and look at
(10:32):
the intangibles of leadership,because leadership is about
deeper things than just numbers.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Absolutely.
And I'm laughing over here whenyou said a larger organization
with big numbers because, likeyou said, they could not have
anything to do with that.
Right, they just had a greatteam and, for whatever reason
you know, they they couldn'tfind their footing or whatever
(11:00):
happened in that role, that theyweren't successful.
But it looks like they weresuccessful because you have this
large organization.
That's pretty much a well-oiledmachine.
And so it's going to be verydifferent when you're stepping
into a role of a smallernonprofit.
That requires you to reallyroll up your sleeves and get
(11:21):
dirty and get not not dirty likedoing dirty stuff, but like you
know what I mean.
Get to the front line, workwith some of your employees as
well, and this is why I'm a hugefan of behavioral interviews
because, I want to know what isit?
(11:43):
how would you react in thissituation?
How have you reacted in thissituation in the past?
If you haven't encountered thistype of situation, what are
your thoughts on handling that?
And that's going to tell you alot about the intangibles that
you're looking for within thatorganization, and I think that
being able to assess thatappropriately is going to give
(12:07):
you a much more well-roundedperson and give you what you're
looking for in terms of theculture, building out the
culture of your organization.
I know I'm going deep.
This is all in.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
I love it, I love it, I love it.
You got to find the substanceof the person.
I mean, some people are alsoreal good at showing style, like
they might look good presentwell.
What I mean by look goodpresent, well, you know, but
then maybe they don't reallyhave substance.
I mean, we all have to have alittle bit of style to you know,
(12:37):
advance and all that.
But when you're doing interviewsand when you're vetting these
executive leaders and yourleadership team, like you're,
especially like your directreports to your senior leader,
you've got to understand thesubstance of the person.
And you know one would assume,ok, these people are all in
(12:58):
nonprofits that we're hiring, sothey've got substance right.
You know what I mean.
Like an outside person, theywould say, oh, they all have it.
But that's not necessarily true.
Everybody in the world comesinto the workplace and into
their profession with stuffright, profession with stuff
right.
You've got to figure out how isthat person, uh, matured in
(13:22):
their stuff and how do theyhandle the stuff that comes out.
Then it comes at them.
You know what I mean.
So it just because a personworks in the nonprofit oh, you
know, a board's like, oh, thisis such a great person and I
love my, my people.
I'm not saying anything aboutanybody, but you've got to
really check the heart and theemotional intelligence and the
(13:44):
maturity of those hires, all ofthem, but especially at the
executive and the directorreport levels.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
I love how you said that, dan.
Right, you said your board says, oh, I love this person and or
our personal relationship withthem, whatever that may be into
(14:20):
thinking, oh, this is a greatperson, they'll do great in this
role.
Well, what evidence is therethat shows that they'll actually
perform well in this role?
What are the qualifications forthis role?
What are some of the thingsthat they need to do, some of
the role responsibilities, andwhat evidence have they shown
that they can actually do thesethings successfully in this role
(14:44):
?
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Right, and you know, in the nonprofit world today we
need to hire people that havesome business intelligence to
them, to them.
But obviously it's alsosomething that they have to have
(15:05):
a background in or around afield or similar type of field
because of work within thesector.
Right, because maybe noteverybody is great with crisis
services like domestic violenceor child abuse, domestic
violence or child abuse.
Right, maybe not everybody isgreat in emergency assistance
(15:26):
provision.
Um, now, it doesn't mean nobody,not, I mean somebody can't
cross over.
But you got to look at someintangibles to see if they can
cross over, if they've been inone section of the nonprofit
sector to another.
You know, the nonprofitexecutive has to have passion
for the topic or they have nobusiness applying.
(15:47):
Certainly that's a thing thatthe board has to check their
passion for the topic.
But then there's someintangibles that also will tell
you are they going to be goodfor this particular field or
they don't have to knoweverything about it.
They never maybe did it before,but they have to come in with a
(16:07):
humility, a willingness tolearn, but also some intangibles
that tells me that they'regoing to be able to handle it.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Yeah, yeah, I agree, and I'm also thinking about when
you say this right, this isgoing to.
You're going to need a diversepool of people to choose from,
and I start thinking about theDEI initiatives that have been
scaled back on the federal level.
And so I'm thinking and I don'twant to get political with this
(16:34):
, because this is not aboutpolitics, this is about being
able to find the right candidate.
And so how does your nonprofit,how can you sort of weave in
diversity, equity, inclusion,without saying this is a DEI
initiative, but we're lookingfor people who have a diverse
(16:58):
set of skills?
We're not discriminatingagainst anyone who maybe has a
disability or is a neurodiverseindividual and or or has a you
know, a sexual preference thatis different from mine.
How do we incorporate thiswithout saying it's DEI, but
(17:19):
giving everyone a fair shot atif they have the skills, the
qualifications and thoseintangibles that will fit well
into the culture, into uscarrying out the mission?
You know how do we include thatwithout including it.
You know what I?
Speaker 2 (17:35):
mean I love this question and I love the way that
you asked it.
You did such a great job askingit, because this is how I, this
is how I I think, and quitehonestly, let me just say I had
a pastor one time that used thisphrase, and I keep using it
over and over again, and thisphrase is that the heart of the
matter is the matter of theheart, and so when you're
(17:59):
talking about having a workplacethat's welcoming and is seeking
diversity, that's a heart issue.
That's not an issue that youcan.
Well, somebody might argue withme, but at least my personal
feelings about this is I can't.
I mean you need to educate,right, but just by putting the
(18:21):
words there doesn't mean thatyou're going, that your heart is
there either.
Okay, words are words unlessyou back it up.
I've chosen to live my life,especially in the workplace, in
trying to show my heart in thismatter, and I don't even I've
never cared about I mean I careabout words because words are
(18:44):
important, but I mean I'm not,it's not, that's not the first
thing Like, the first thing isthe heart, and so it's got to be
the heartbeat of yourorganization.
The board and the executivedirector set that heart.
So when you're talking abouthaving a diverse staff, it's got
to be at the top of your heartand the top of your mind to be
seeking a diverse work pool,because when you have diversity
(19:07):
in your board and in your hiringit makes your organization
richer.
You know, one challenge that Iwant to be transparent of that
I've had in my organization oneside is a good thing is that we
hardly have turnover.
So like I haven't had a higherin, you know, like a full-time
(19:27):
hire in like 18 months eventhough we have 15 full-time
staff members because everybodywants to stay.
We've been very fortunate.
So every time we make a hirebecause there's so few in a 15
full-time we have to have oureyes on that lens.
But it's hard when you'relooking to make progress when
you don't have a lot of hiring.
(19:48):
That just naturally happens.
But it's got to be at the topof your mind and top of your
heart to do that.
And people know people wantauthentic people, will see
through the heart and I thinkthat's that's just how you have
to be you.
You have to show it and thatovercomes any word subtractions
(20:11):
or, quite honestly, unfelt wordadditions that anybody has.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Yeah, I love this because, you know, again,
there's so much right now aroundDEI initiatives and, like you
said, you can say anything, buthow are we actually backing this
up, how are we weaving thisinto the culture, the
environment of our organization?
(20:39):
And that's why, you know, Ifirmly believe that, whether or
not you allow it, you know.
on, a what do we call it on alaw like, lawfully or not?
We value everyone's opinions,we value everyone's perspectives
, we value different culturesand different, just just
(21:03):
differences among us that canhelp us to really serve the
community that we're set up,that we set out to serve.
And so I love, I just love, theway that you framed that
because, um, you know it makes adifference in terms of how
you're able to serve yourcommunity.
(21:24):
Um, because if you have all ofthe same thought process, you
know, what I mean, all of thesame cultural backgrounds then
you're going to be missingsomething, because there are
experiences that others have hadthat maybe this group of people
have not, and those experiencesthat they haven't had could be
something very beneficial to thecommunity in terms of how you
(21:46):
serve them.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Right.
One more thing, and it kind ofis a combination with the
question you asked earlier aboutthe benefits piece.
I'm going to say that there arediverse, there are diverse
groups that are in high, high,high demand in the nonprofit
sector.
That because we're because weas nonprofits should be hungry
(22:10):
for having a diverse workforce,the salary demand is higher.
So, for example yeah, you knowwhat I'm talking about Spring,
because people are in highdemand, yes, it goes back.
So if I want to intentionallyhire someone who's maybe they're
bilingual, well, you better payfor that.
Or if I want to hire a personwho's Black or African American,
(22:33):
that has been in the sector andhas great talent, which they
you know, then you better beable to hire for it, because
this person is in demand.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Salary-wise, and even people who have trauma-informed
experiences.
They have those certificationsin trauma informed care that is
in high demand in the nonprofitsector.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Right.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
And so, yeah, you better be able to put your money
where your mouth is.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
I saw your face when I brought it up, because you
know what I'm, you know what I'mtalking about.
Because you know what I'mtalking about.
And so if you want to bediverse, you better be ready to
pay for it, because people arein high demand right now.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
So tell me this, dan what are some ways that the
hiring committee can assess acandidate's alignment with the
organization's mission andvalues, just beyond a
traditional interview Like?
What are some ways that theycan find that alignment?
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Well, you know, every organization should have core
values.
I mean I would hope thatthey're written and I really
encourage nonprofits to havethose value statements that
their employees put together.
So you've got a mission, youhave a vision, but also you
should have value statements and, of course, as a nonprofit
executive and leadership team,you should be backing those
(24:04):
values up and make sure theyshine.
So when you ask questionsregarding the interview, you
want to make sure that thisperson's values align with yours
in that regard, which alsofeeds into the culture.
You just really got to figureout where your nonprofit sits in
(24:26):
terms of that culture.
Like a little subtle thing like,for example, you know, running
a mentoring organization, I wantto make sure my people are
relationship-driven and thatthey are willing to dig a little
bit deep, at least, you know,because that fits with the
culture.
And when you're a mentor, thatdoesn't mean, when I say that I
(24:49):
want them to berelationship-driven, that
they're all extreme extrovertsor extroverts.
No, you can still berelationship driven and be an
introvert, Absolutely, you know.
But you've got to find out that.
So that's an example of mynonprofit, you know, with, like
one of my values, relationshipdriven.
I want to figure out if thisperson fits in our culture from
a relationship driven standpoint.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
But I find introverts to be the best relationship
builders because they're so,they're not going to just expend
their energy on just anythingRight, so they're going to make
sure, okay, if I'm building arelationship with this person, I
know this is not my thing, soI'm going to make sure it works,
(25:31):
and so, yeah, they tend to bethe best relationship builders
in my experience.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
I love that.
That is so, so true and alsobetter listeners than some of us
extroverts.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Exactly.
So let's talk about this too,because you know, ai is on the
rise and I have seen I've seenso many people on LinkedIn as
they were looking to hire.
They're saying, oh, I'm tiredof reading these AI resumes, but
what can?
How can you leverage technologyto help you make these hires
(26:09):
Right?
Because, yes, we know AI is onthe rise, we know people are
going to use it.
Um, but how can we use it toour benefit as we're looking to
hire people?
Speaker 2 (26:20):
let me just say this uh and this isn't really what
you're asking, but I just haveto say it when we're talking
about diversity in ournon-profits, now we're all
learning.
I mean, I don't care what ageyou are.
If you're, you know about youryear in your seventies and
you're on the verge ofretirement, or you're 23, 25,.
(26:40):
We're all learning about AI.
But I will say, in our hiringand in our we have to have
diversity from an age standpointas well when you hire people
because the younger generationis more tuned in flexible,
knowledgeable, innovative insome in those regards to where
(27:01):
we are looking at incorporatingtechnology.
Having that talent from a skillstandpoint and sometimes
younger, you know more with thepeople in this regard is helpful
to your nonprofit to have thatkind of diversity.
Now, in using AI in hiring, Idon't want to be able to tell if
(27:24):
that employee put togethertheir resume or they're
certainly not their cover letterusing AI.
I don't want to know that theydid, because it means it's
authentic Right Now.
If they did and it tells andI'm hiring and I'm going, oh my
(27:47):
gosh, they used AI, they're out.
But if they did use AI and Ican't tell.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
I'm going.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Oh my gosh they used AI, they're out.
But if they did use AI and Ican't- tell.
I'm like, oh, this is reallygood.
I mean, this is good, I didn'teven know.
Then it's a better letter.
So as far as on the end of theperson that's putting themselves
forth as the hire, I'm notgoing to want to know, Maybe
it'll strengthen their ability.
Now, as the receiver, mynonprofit's not big enough to
(28:14):
screen for that sort of thing,but I would say that using AI in
some basic screening isprobably okay.
But I'm a hands-on person and Ilike I mean these positions are
so important that any higherlevel screening I'm going to
(28:36):
want to do it myself.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Yeah, I agree, because you want to know what's
coming through the hiring pieceat all unless it's for the
executive leadership or at leastsome well-defined like a
well-defined job description,well-defined intangibles that
you're looking for and some wellthought out interview questions
for this executive leadershipposition.
But I totally agree with youwhen you say you know, you want
(29:23):
to put your hands on it, youwant to put your eyes on it, you
want to see who's coming toyour team because ultimately, as
executive leadership in anonprofit, they're going to
report to you at some point.
You know, when we're thinkingabout private, private
businesses, you may notnecessarily have interactions
(29:44):
often with frontline people whenyou're at executive leadership,
all the way at the top, but inthe nonprofit world everybody's
working towards one mission, onegoal and at some point
everybody's going to sit at thetable and you guys are going to
come together and say, okay,what do we need to do
differently, what's working,what's not working and how can
(30:04):
we move this forward.
And in order to do that, youhave to know who's on your team.
You have to know their workstyle and what.
You know what they're supposedto be doing, what they have done
and what they still need to doand you need to have some sort
of relationship with this person.
(30:24):
So it's super important, likeyou said, that the executive
leadership, the executivedirector or whoever, even the
executive team if there's anexecutive team in the nonprofit
itself, if it's large enough forthat they need to be in on the
hiring, they need to know who'scoming in so that all of this,
(30:47):
so that the organization thrives, because if you don't know who,
you're't know who you're hiring, who's coming in, what's going
on, then it's gonna it's gonnabe a problem.
Right, I've seen it.
I've seen people be hands off.
Somebody comes in and it justdoesn't work and it's more
detriment to the organization.
(31:07):
Um, and the organization has toplay cleanup, you know.
So, everything, everything thathappens, um, in smaller
nonprofits, aside from like aUnited way or like the big
habitat for humanity orsomething like that, but an
organization like seedling right, if you had a this horrible
(31:29):
employee who came in who's justgoing out building relationships
on lies, that's going toreflect badly on your
organization and then you haveto play cleanup from that right
and you have to try to figureout okay, now what am I going to
do?
How am I going to rectify this?
You know this, they could havesevered relationships with
(31:51):
funders that could have beenmajor donors that you need to go
back and try to, you know, makerelationships.
So I'm always thinking aboutthose things and how to be super
careful and super cautious, butalso welcoming everyone to at
least, you know, feel like theyhave an opportunity to apply and
(32:13):
an opportunity at a shot at itif they have the qualifications.
So it's that, that balance.
I know.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
That's why I think the initial maybe okay for your
minimum qualifications, but, um,just make sure you're real.
You're real on target aboutwhat your minimum qualifications
are and what they aren't,because you don't want this tool
to screen out somebody thatmight be good.
(32:40):
So your non-negotiables arethat's fine on the AI standpoint
to screen them out, but justmake sure you know what they are
and what they aren't in termsof your minimum qualifications.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Yeah, I'm not big on I am not big on automated
screening tools when it comes tohiring a resume.
It's like I much prefer.
Let me put my eyes on it, letme read it myself.
For let me put my eyes on it,let me read it myself, let me
see for a fact, because theseresume tools are going to be
looking for specific words andthey could very well describe,
(33:18):
they could very well describetheir experience not using any
of those words, and thoseexperiences could be way better
than what the automated systemcan detect.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
So yeah, yeah, and you know, in the AI thing, this
is a test of our discernment,you know, in our wisdom, you
know, and because the world willtell you, oh well, you're not
with it.
If you don't use AI and atleast 80% of your you know
workflows or whatever, thenyou're just not with it and you
should be kind of embarrassed.
(33:48):
No, it's not, that's, that'sthe wrong pressure you got to.
We got to use wisdom anddiscernment, to use it where,
where it really really is neededand helpful, and understand
where it's not.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Absolutely.
I agree, I agree 1000%.
Um, this is great, dan.
This is amazing.
I'm so excited.
Thank you so much for havingthis conversation with me.
I just, I want to be able togive, give nonprofit
organizations, the leaders, thehiring team, even the board just
ideas about how they the CEO,to really drive the mission
(34:21):
forward and to really have ateam of people that's going to
be effective in doing so.
And so you have to make surethat you have the right person
in place to be able to do that,and it's not just because, oh, I
(34:43):
really like this person, wehave a great relationship, so
they'll be great in leadership.
Well, what, like you said, whatintangibles do they have that's
going to fit into this culture?
What actual evidence do we seethat tells us that, yes, they
can do some of theresponsibilities of this role?
They've successfully done it inthe past.
(35:05):
We feel like they're going todo it here.
And are they coachable?
Are we going to be able toreally, you know, help them
learn more about this specificorganization, this role and what
it takes to move forward inthis organization?
Speaker 2 (35:23):
we've got to take time with people, you know, and
sadly, people, people do makejudgments right off the bat in a
lot of things like in the worldwhere we are so quick,
everything information is comingout so quick we're also quick
to judge, and so I wouldchallenge us all to make sure
(35:44):
that in hiring that we take ourtime with it, do those person to
person-person things and not beso quick to judge with your
negotiables and just check itout.
Look into the person a little,a lot more.
Take the time to do so, becauseyour people are your most
precious resource.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And people in the nonprofitworld.
Like you said, we are a peoplesector.
We are serving people.
We are looking for the rightpeople to help us serve those
people.
So we have to take time toreally get to know people.
So thank you so much, dan,appreciate you I've enjoyed it.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
It's a good time.
Thank you for uh letting metalk about this and for your
openness and great presentationof all the questions awesome,
awesome, well, guys, thank youso much for tuning in today.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Um dan, once again, if anyone wants to reach out to
you, if they want to learn moreabout you or seedling or any of
the other things that you havegoing on, how do they get in
touch with?
Speaker 2 (36:50):
you.
Yeah, find me on LinkedIn.
We can connect there, or justemail me at
danatseedlingmentorsorg.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Awesome.
Well, guys, there you have it.
Thanks for tuning in and untilnext time, guys, on the Spring
Forward podcast.
Hey, nonprofit friends, welcome to the Spring
Forward podcast, where we talkabout all things nonprofit, from
board discord to grant writingand strategic planning tips.
If you're an executive director, nonprofit board member or just
someone heavily involved in thenonprofit sector, then this is
the podcast for you.
Let's spring forward intoexcellence, and this is the
(00:25):
podcast for you.
Let's spring forward intoexcellence.
Welcome, welcome everyone toanother episode of the Spring
Forward podcast.
I'm your host, SpringRichardson Perry, and today I am
super excited to be talking toyou guys about hiring and
retention in the nonprofitsector.
This is going to be a good one,because we are always talking
(00:49):
about employee engagement orlooking for ways to get good
talent in the nonprofit sector,and I have back with us today
once again Dan Leal, who hasbeen in the nonprofit world
since 2002.
He is currently the CEO ofSeedling and he is just a
wonderful, wonderful person toget to talk to about the
(01:13):
nonprofit sector and all thethings going on.
So I'm excited to talk to youtoday, Dan.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (01:19):
I am really, really great and I'm just excited to
talk about one of my favoritetopics with you today.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
So this is going to be fun, this is going to be
awesome.
I want to start with talkingabout just talent in general.
Right, because in the nonprofitsector it always seems like
it's a little harder to attractgood talent because of the
salary ranges, right, and so inthe private sector, if I was a
development director, whichwould be the equivalent of a
(01:54):
salesperson, I would be makingmaybe six figures, depending on
where I was at, what company Iwas in.
Right, I would be expected tomake that much.
But in the nonprofit sector Iwas looking today actually at
what a development directormakes.
The US national average isanywhere from 80,000 to 120,000.
So if you're at a largernonprofit, you may be on the
(02:17):
higher side, which could becomparable to the private sector
, but if you're at a smallernonprofit, you can go to the
private sector and make moremoney.
So how do we attract this toptalent who's going to be really
good at what they do, but alsocompensate them fairly in the
nonprofit world?
Speaker 2 (02:37):
So twofold answer to that.
Because it's both things right.
So one is the compensation, sowe'll talk about that first.
Because it's both things right,so one is the compensation, so
we'll talk about that first.
And we have to educate ourboards of directors.
Even though the boards may notbe looking at the specific
salary of the staff other thancertainly the executive director
(02:57):
or CEO, the board sets thestage for sure with the
executive director CEOcompensation, the stage for sure
with the executive director ceocompensation.
Some boards do look at salaryranges and certainly the board
is approving the overall budgetfor the organization.
But as the ceo executivedirector, you've got to set that
culture and that expectationwith your board that we're going
(03:19):
to compensate our staff.
Well, obviously, behind that isthe ability of the nonprofit to
be sustainable in raising money.
And you've got to beintentional on the fundraising
side regarding or excuse me, onthe benefit side, regarding the
full package, when we're talkingabout compensation.
(03:40):
So you're talking about theannual salary and constantly
making efforts to do cost ofliving increases at minimum, if
not bonuses, keeping your eye onlocal sector comparables but
always wanting to be the best inthose local sector comparables.
And also that full packageincludes health insurance and
(04:02):
what that looks like inproviding a good health
insurance.
And then thirdly and I'm goingto pause before we talk about
culture, so I can take a breathand let you see if anything I
said leads you to anything else.
But I haven't forgotten aboutthe culture, because that's a
whole topic too.
But also the retirement is veryimportant because, because we
(04:23):
want our employees as nonprofitsto be set up for their future
as well, nonprofit employeesshould not have to suffer in the
future while they're doinggreat things today.
And then, lastly, on thecompensation side is mental
health is a big deal, so you gotto have a mental health package
(04:45):
built in within your nonprofittoo.
So those are the four things,just purely on the money side,
that I can think of.
I may have missed some, but I'mgoing salary, I'm going raises
or cost of living, I'm goinghealth, I'm going retirement,
and then back on the health.
(05:05):
The fourth one would actuallybe the mental health tied in
with that health package.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Yeah, Total compensation package matters and
especially when you havemultiple offers that you're
considering, you may take alesser salary because you get
these premium health benefits oryou may take lesser health
benefits because you get thislarger salary that can cover
(05:30):
that.
And so I totally understandexactly what you're saying here
and I really want to bring itback to the benefits themselves.
Because, as an organization,right, you want to, like you
said, you want to compensateyour employees fairly, you want
to set them up for success inthe future, and so you have to
(05:52):
be able to communicate thateffectively to your board,
because if we're not settingthese salaries up in the
beginning to where we canattract good talent but also
sustain this for the future,then there's going to be a
problem with the organization asa whole.
And benefits, oh my gosh, likehealth insurance, is ridiculous.
(06:19):
It's ridiculous, but it's oneof those things that will make
or break an offer for someone.
So you have to be able to finda balance.
And you know, I love when yousaid culture as well, because
the culture of the organizationmatters, especially if I'm
(06:41):
expecting someone to take a paycut to come and work for me.
Well, if they're taking a paycut, they're coming to a toxic
work environment, they don'thave any benefits, they don't
get a retirement plan, what's init for them, and this is what I
see in nonprofit organizationsand their excuses.
Well, we're a nonprofit, wecan't afford that.
(07:03):
You better figure it out,because you won't be anything if
you don't have people to helpyou carry forward this mission.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
That's right.
And you know what, when youhave a nonprofit, one of the
biggest mistakes that anonprofit can make is operating
that nonprofit from a positionof let's not lose, instead of
operating the nonprofit from astandpoint of let's win.
Because you know what?
We want our clients at ournonprofits to win.
(07:35):
We want them to advance intheir lives and no matter what
service we provide, even if it'san emergency basic need, we
want them to.
You know, help them avoid, youknow, homelessness, and that
temporarily.
But ultimately we want them tobe economically self-sufficient.
So shouldn't our nonprofitsoperate the same way?
(07:58):
Instead of a losing mindset,let's move towards a winning
mindset, not that we're less,than because that actually feeds
into the culture.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
I totally agree with you, and when we start thinking
with a scarcity mindset, westart reacting in that way
instead of being proactive inwhat we can do.
So I completely agree with youhere.
So I'm thinking too, danbecause this has a lot to do
with the executive leadership inthe organization as well how
(08:32):
they set these things up forsuccess, how they frame this
with their board.
But when the board is lookingto hire executive leadership
right, how does that that work?
Speaker 2 (08:45):
talk to me about that so there's got to be really
advanced um work in terms ofvetting the executive director,
and it goes even deeper than thenumbers.
You know you can.
You want your person to haveexperiences in your field of
work, sure, but this person hasto show evidence, when you're
(09:09):
hiring the executive director,of having a track record of
success in fundraising, being agood steward of funds and also
taking good care of their people.
And also taking good care oftheir people and also, like
there's intangibles that you'vegot to figure out as a board
(09:30):
when you're interviewing theexecutive director.
That will feed into a goodculture.
Really digging deep into howdoes this nonprofit CEO handle
(09:51):
stress themselves, what are theways that they handle it when
things are going not so well,because there's a lot of things
that can happen that can createthat.
How do you respond to crisis?
But you've got to really digdeep.
When you're using a recruitingfirm, you've got to make sure
that they're digging deep anddoing screening and asking some
of these intangible questions,because it's not always in the
(10:11):
numbers.
People can dress up theirresume real nice and they can
look good from.
You know, coming from a bigorganization that had this many
millions of dollars and all that, but that doesn't mean that
that doesn't mean they did agreat job, nor does it mean that
they did a good job taking careof their people.
So you've got to dig way deepbehind the numbers and look at
(10:32):
the intangibles of leadership,because leadership is about
deeper things than just numbers.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Absolutely.
And I'm laughing over here whenyou said a larger organization
with big numbers because, likeyou said, they could not have
anything to do with that.
Right, they just had a greatteam and, for whatever reason
you know, they they couldn'tfind their footing or whatever
(11:00):
happened in that role, that theyweren't successful.
But it looks like they weresuccessful because you have this
large organization.
That's pretty much a well-oiledmachine.
And so it's going to be verydifferent when you're stepping
into a role of a smallernonprofit.
That requires you to reallyroll up your sleeves and get
(11:21):
dirty and get not not dirty likedoing dirty stuff, but like you
know what I mean.
Get to the front line, workwith some of your employees as
well, and this is why I'm a hugefan of behavioral interviews
because, I want to know what isit?
(11:43):
how would you react in thissituation?
How have you reacted in thissituation in the past?
If you haven't encountered thistype of situation, what are
your thoughts on handling that?
And that's going to tell you alot about the intangibles that
you're looking for within thatorganization, and I think that
being able to assess thatappropriately is going to give
(12:07):
you a much more well-roundedperson and give you what you're
looking for in terms of theculture, building out the
culture of your organization.
I know I'm going deep.
This is all in.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
I love it, I love it, I love it.
You got to find the substanceof the person.
I mean, some people are alsoreal good at showing style, like
they might look good presentwell.
What I mean by look goodpresent, well, you know, but
then maybe they don't reallyhave substance.
I mean, we all have to have alittle bit of style to you know,
(12:37):
advance and all that.
But when you're doing interviewsand when you're vetting these
executive leaders and yourleadership team, like you're,
especially like your directreports to your senior leader,
you've got to understand thesubstance of the person.
And you know one would assume,ok, these people are all in
(12:58):
nonprofits that we're hiring, sothey've got substance right.
You know what I mean.
Like an outside person, theywould say, oh, they all have it.
But that's not necessarily true.
Everybody in the world comesinto the workplace and into
their profession with stuffright, profession with stuff
right.
You've got to figure out how isthat person, uh, matured in
(13:22):
their stuff and how do theyhandle the stuff that comes out.
Then it comes at them.
You know what I mean.
So it just because a personworks in the nonprofit oh, you
know, a board's like, oh, thisis such a great person and I
love my, my people.
I'm not saying anything aboutanybody, but you've got to
really check the heart and theemotional intelligence and the
(13:44):
maturity of those hires, all ofthem, but especially at the
executive and the directorreport levels.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
I love how you said that, dan.
Right, you said your board says, oh, I love this person and or
our personal relationship withthem, whatever that may be into
(14:20):
thinking, oh, this is a greatperson, they'll do great in this
role.
Well, what evidence is therethat shows that they'll actually
perform well in this role?
What are the qualifications forthis role?
What are some of the thingsthat they need to do, some of
the role responsibilities, andwhat evidence have they shown
that they can actually do thesethings successfully in this role
(14:44):
?
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Right, and you know, in the nonprofit world today we
need to hire people that havesome business intelligence to
them, to them.
But obviously it's alsosomething that they have to have
(15:05):
a background in or around afield or similar type of field
because of work within thesector.
Right, because maybe noteverybody is great with crisis
services like domestic violenceor child abuse, domestic
violence or child abuse.
Right, maybe not everybody isgreat in emergency assistance
(15:26):
provision.
Um, now, it doesn't mean nobody,not, I mean somebody can't
cross over.
But you got to look at someintangibles to see if they can
cross over, if they've been inone section of the nonprofit
sector to another.
You know, the nonprofitexecutive has to have passion
for the topic or they have nobusiness applying.
(15:47):
Certainly that's a thing thatthe board has to check their
passion for the topic.
But then there's someintangibles that also will tell
you are they going to be goodfor this particular field or
they don't have to knoweverything about it.
They never maybe did it before,but they have to come in with a
(16:07):
humility, a willingness tolearn, but also some intangibles
that tells me that they'regoing to be able to handle it.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Yeah, yeah, I agree, and I'm also thinking about when
you say this right, this isgoing to.
You're going to need a diversepool of people to choose from,
and I start thinking about theDEI initiatives that have been
scaled back on the federal level.
And so I'm thinking and I don'twant to get political with this
(16:34):
, because this is not aboutpolitics, this is about being
able to find the right candidate.
And so how does your nonprofit,how can you sort of weave in
diversity, equity, inclusion,without saying this is a DEI
initiative, but we're lookingfor people who have a diverse
(16:58):
set of skills?
We're not discriminatingagainst anyone who maybe has a
disability or is a neurodiverseindividual and or or has a you
know, a sexual preference thatis different from mine.
How do we incorporate thiswithout saying it's DEI, but
(17:19):
giving everyone a fair shot atif they have the skills, the
qualifications and thoseintangibles that will fit well
into the culture, into uscarrying out the mission?
You know how do we include thatwithout including it.
You know what I?
Speaker 2 (17:35):
mean I love this question and I love the way that
you asked it.
You did such a great job askingit, because this is how I, this
is how I I think, and quitehonestly, let me just say I had
a pastor one time that used thisphrase, and I keep using it
over and over again, and thisphrase is that the heart of the
matter is the matter of theheart, and so when you're
(17:59):
talking about having a workplacethat's welcoming and is seeking
diversity, that's a heart issue.
That's not an issue that youcan.
Well, somebody might argue withme, but at least my personal
feelings about this is I can't.
I mean you need to educate,right, but just by putting the
(18:21):
words there doesn't mean thatyou're going, that your heart is
there either.
Okay, words are words unlessyou back it up.
I've chosen to live my life,especially in the workplace, in
trying to show my heart in thismatter, and I don't even I've
never cared about I mean I careabout words because words are
(18:44):
important, but I mean I'm not,it's not, that's not the first
thing Like, the first thing isthe heart, and so it's got to be
the heartbeat of yourorganization.
The board and the executivedirector set that heart.
So when you're talking abouthaving a diverse staff, it's got
to be at the top of your heartand the top of your mind to be
seeking a diverse work pool,because when you have diversity
(19:07):
in your board and in your hiringit makes your organization
richer.
You know, one challenge that Iwant to be transparent of that
I've had in my organization oneside is a good thing is that we
hardly have turnover.
So like I haven't had a higherin, you know, like a full-time
(19:27):
hire in like 18 months eventhough we have 15 full-time
staff members because everybodywants to stay.
We've been very fortunate.
So every time we make a hirebecause there's so few in a 15
full-time we have to have oureyes on that lens.
But it's hard when you'relooking to make progress when
you don't have a lot of hiring.
(19:48):
That just naturally happens.
But it's got to be at the topof your mind and top of your
heart to do that.
And people know people wantauthentic people, will see
through the heart and I thinkthat's that's just how you have
to be you.
You have to show it and thatovercomes any word subtractions
(20:11):
or, quite honestly, unfelt wordadditions that anybody has.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Yeah, I love this because, you know, again,
there's so much right now aroundDEI initiatives and, like you
said, you can say anything, buthow are we actually backing this
up, how are we weaving thisinto the culture, the
environment of our organization?
(20:39):
And that's why, you know, Ifirmly believe that, whether or
not you allow it, you know.
on, a what do we call it on alaw like, lawfully or not?
We value everyone's opinions,we value everyone's perspectives
, we value different culturesand different, just just
(21:03):
differences among us that canhelp us to really serve the
community that we're set up,that we set out to serve.
And so I love, I just love, theway that you framed that
because, um, you know it makes adifference in terms of how
you're able to serve yourcommunity.
(21:24):
Um, because if you have all ofthe same thought process, you
know, what I mean, all of thesame cultural backgrounds then
you're going to be missingsomething, because there are
experiences that others have hadthat maybe this group of people
have not, and those experiencesthat they haven't had could be
something very beneficial to thecommunity in terms of how you
(21:46):
serve them.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Right.
One more thing, and it kind ofis a combination with the
question you asked earlier aboutthe benefits piece.
I'm going to say that there arediverse, there are diverse
groups that are in high, high,high demand in the nonprofit
sector.
That because we're because weas nonprofits should be hungry
(22:10):
for having a diverse workforce,the salary demand is higher.
So, for example yeah, you knowwhat I'm talking about Spring,
because people are in highdemand, yes, it goes back.
So if I want to intentionallyhire someone who's maybe they're
bilingual, well, you better payfor that.
Or if I want to hire a personwho's Black or African American,
(22:33):
that has been in the sector andhas great talent, which they
you know, then you better beable to hire for it, because
this person is in demand.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Salary-wise, and even people who have trauma-informed
experiences.
They have those certificationsin trauma informed care that is
in high demand in the nonprofitsector.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Right.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
And so, yeah, you better be able to put your money
where your mouth is.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
I saw your face when I brought it up, because you
know what I'm, you know what I'mtalking about.
Because you know what I'mtalking about.
And so if you want to bediverse, you better be ready to
pay for it, because people arein high demand right now.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
So tell me this, dan what are some ways that the
hiring committee can assess acandidate's alignment with the
organization's mission andvalues, just beyond a
traditional interview Like?
What are some ways that theycan find that alignment?
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Well, you know, every organization should have core
values.
I mean I would hope thatthey're written and I really
encourage nonprofits to havethose value statements that
their employees put together.
So you've got a mission, youhave a vision, but also you
should have value statements and, of course, as a nonprofit
executive and leadership team,you should be backing those
(24:04):
values up and make sure theyshine.
So when you ask questionsregarding the interview, you
want to make sure that thisperson's values align with yours
in that regard, which alsofeeds into the culture.
You just really got to figureout where your nonprofit sits in
(24:26):
terms of that culture.
Like a little subtle thing like,for example, you know, running
a mentoring organization, I wantto make sure my people are
relationship-driven and thatthey are willing to dig a little
bit deep, at least, you know,because that fits with the
culture.
And when you're a mentor, thatdoesn't mean, when I say that I
(24:49):
want them to berelationship-driven, that
they're all extreme extrovertsor extroverts.
No, you can still berelationship driven and be an
introvert, Absolutely, you know.
But you've got to find out that.
So that's an example of mynonprofit, you know, with, like
one of my values, relationshipdriven.
I want to figure out if thisperson fits in our culture from
a relationship driven standpoint.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
But I find introverts to be the best relationship
builders because they're so,they're not going to just expend
their energy on just anythingRight, so they're going to make
sure, okay, if I'm building arelationship with this person, I
know this is not my thing, soI'm going to make sure it works,
(25:31):
and so, yeah, they tend to bethe best relationship builders
in my experience.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
I love that.
That is so, so true and alsobetter listeners than some of us
extroverts.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Exactly.
So let's talk about this too,because you know, ai is on the
rise and I have seen I've seenso many people on LinkedIn as
they were looking to hire.
They're saying, oh, I'm tiredof reading these AI resumes, but
what can?
How can you leverage technologyto help you make these hires
(26:09):
Right?
Because, yes, we know AI is onthe rise, we know people are
going to use it.
Um, but how can we use it toour benefit as we're looking to
hire people?
Speaker 2 (26:20):
let me just say this uh and this isn't really what
you're asking, but I just haveto say it when we're talking
about diversity in ournon-profits, now we're all
learning.
I mean, I don't care what ageyou are.
If you're, you know about youryear in your seventies and
you're on the verge ofretirement, or you're 23, 25,.
(26:40):
We're all learning about AI.
But I will say, in our hiringand in our we have to have
diversity from an age standpointas well when you hire people
because the younger generationis more tuned in flexible,
knowledgeable, innovative insome in those regards to where
(27:01):
we are looking at incorporatingtechnology.
Having that talent from a skillstandpoint and sometimes
younger, you know more with thepeople in this regard is helpful
to your nonprofit to have thatkind of diversity.
Now, in using AI in hiring, Idon't want to be able to tell if
(27:24):
that employee put togethertheir resume or they're
certainly not their cover letterusing AI.
I don't want to know that theydid, because it means it's
authentic Right Now.
If they did and it tells andI'm hiring and I'm going, oh my
(27:47):
gosh, they used AI, they're out.
But if they did use AI and Ican't tell.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
I'm going.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Oh my gosh they used AI, they're out.
But if they did use AI and Ican't- tell.
I'm like, oh, this is reallygood.
I mean, this is good, I didn'teven know.
Then it's a better letter.
So as far as on the end of theperson that's putting themselves
forth as the hire, I'm notgoing to want to know, Maybe
it'll strengthen their ability.
Now, as the receiver, mynonprofit's not big enough to
(28:14):
screen for that sort of thing,but I would say that using AI in
some basic screening isprobably okay.
But I'm a hands-on person and Ilike I mean these positions are
so important that any higherlevel screening I'm going to
(28:36):
want to do it myself.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Yeah, I agree, because you want to know what's
coming through the hiring pieceat all unless it's for the
executive leadership or at leastsome well-defined like a
well-defined job description,well-defined intangibles that
you're looking for and some wellthought out interview questions
for this executive leadershipposition.
But I totally agree with youwhen you say you know, you want
(29:23):
to put your hands on it, youwant to put your eyes on it, you
want to see who's coming toyour team because ultimately, as
executive leadership in anonprofit, they're going to
report to you at some point.
You know, when we're thinkingabout private, private
businesses, you may notnecessarily have interactions
(29:44):
often with frontline people whenyou're at executive leadership,
all the way at the top, but inthe nonprofit world everybody's
working towards one mission, onegoal and at some point
everybody's going to sit at thetable and you guys are going to
come together and say, okay,what do we need to do
differently, what's working,what's not working and how can
(30:04):
we move this forward.
And in order to do that, youhave to know who's on your team.
You have to know their workstyle and what.
You know what they're supposedto be doing, what they have done
and what they still need to doand you need to have some sort
of relationship with this person.
(30:24):
So it's super important, likeyou said, that the executive
leadership, the executivedirector or whoever, even the
executive team if there's anexecutive team in the nonprofit
itself, if it's large enough forthat they need to be in on the
hiring, they need to know who'scoming in so that all of this,
(30:47):
so that the organization thrives, because if you don't know who,
you're't know who you're hiring, who's coming in, what's going
on, then it's gonna it's gonnabe a problem.
Right, I've seen it.
I've seen people be hands off.
Somebody comes in and it justdoesn't work and it's more
detriment to the organization.
(31:07):
Um, and the organization has toplay cleanup, you know.
So, everything, everything thathappens, um, in smaller
nonprofits, aside from like aUnited way or like the big
habitat for humanity orsomething like that, but an
organization like seedling right, if you had a this horrible
(31:29):
employee who came in who's justgoing out building relationships
on lies, that's going toreflect badly on your
organization and then you haveto play cleanup from that right
and you have to try to figureout okay, now what am I going to
do?
How am I going to rectify this?
You know this, they could havesevered relationships with
(31:51):
funders that could have beenmajor donors that you need to go
back and try to, you know, makerelationships.
So I'm always thinking aboutthose things and how to be super
careful and super cautious, butalso welcoming everyone to at
least, you know, feel like theyhave an opportunity to apply and
(32:13):
an opportunity at a shot at itif they have the qualifications.
So it's that, that balance.
I know.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
That's why I think the initial maybe okay for your
minimum qualifications, but, um,just make sure you're real.
You're real on target aboutwhat your minimum qualifications
are and what they aren't,because you don't want this tool
to screen out somebody thatmight be good.
(32:40):
So your non-negotiables arethat's fine on the AI standpoint
to screen them out, but justmake sure you know what they are
and what they aren't in termsof your minimum qualifications.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Yeah, I'm not big on I am not big on automated
screening tools when it comes tohiring a resume.
It's like I much prefer.
Let me put my eyes on it, letme read it myself.
For let me put my eyes on it,let me read it myself, let me
see for a fact, because theseresume tools are going to be
looking for specific words andthey could very well describe,
(33:18):
they could very well describetheir experience not using any
of those words, and thoseexperiences could be way better
than what the automated systemcan detect.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
So yeah, yeah, and you know, in the AI thing, this
is a test of our discernment,you know, in our wisdom, you
know, and because the world willtell you, oh well, you're not
with it.
If you don't use AI and atleast 80% of your you know
workflows or whatever, thenyou're just not with it and you
should be kind of embarrassed.
(33:48):
No, it's not, that's, that'sthe wrong pressure you got to.
We got to use wisdom anddiscernment, to use it where,
where it really really is neededand helpful, and understand
where it's not.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Absolutely.
I agree, I agree 1000%.
Um, this is great, dan.
This is amazing.
I'm so excited.
Thank you so much for havingthis conversation with me.
I just, I want to be able togive, give nonprofit
organizations, the leaders, thehiring team, even the board just
ideas about how they the CEO,to really drive the mission
(34:21):
forward and to really have ateam of people that's going to
be effective in doing so.
And so you have to make surethat you have the right person
in place to be able to do that,and it's not just because, oh, I
(34:43):
really like this person, wehave a great relationship, so
they'll be great in leadership.
Well, what, like you said, whatintangibles do they have that's
going to fit into this culture?
What actual evidence do we seethat tells us that, yes, they
can do some of theresponsibilities of this role?
They've successfully done it inthe past.
(35:05):
We feel like they're going todo it here.
And are they coachable?
Are we going to be able toreally, you know, help them
learn more about this specificorganization, this role and what
it takes to move forward inthis organization?
Speaker 2 (35:23):
we've got to take time with people, you know, and
sadly, people, people do makejudgments right off the bat in a
lot of things like in the worldwhere we are so quick,
everything information is comingout so quick we're also quick
to judge, and so I wouldchallenge us all to make sure
(35:44):
that in hiring that we take ourtime with it, do those person to
person-person things and not beso quick to judge with your
negotiables and just check itout.
Look into the person a little,a lot more.
Take the time to do so, becauseyour people are your most
precious resource.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And people in the nonprofitworld.
Like you said, we are a peoplesector.
We are serving people.
We are looking for the rightpeople to help us serve those
people.
So we have to take time toreally get to know people.
So thank you so much, dan,appreciate you I've enjoyed it.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
It's a good time.
Thank you for uh letting metalk about this and for your
openness and great presentationof all the questions awesome,
awesome, well, guys, thank youso much for tuning in today.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Um dan, once again, if anyone wants to reach out to
you, if they want to learn moreabout you or seedling or any of
the other things that you havegoing on, how do they get in
touch with?
Speaker 2 (36:50):
you.
Yeah, find me on LinkedIn.
We can connect there, or justemail me at
danatseedlingmentorsorg.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Awesome.
Well, guys, there you have it.
Thanks for tuning in and untilnext time, guys, on the Spring
Forward podcast.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.