February 17, 2025 • 43 mins
For attorneys, storytelling is more than just a skill—it’s a critical tool for representing their clients effectively. Whether it’s painting a vivid picture in an opening statement, weaving evidence into a compelling narrative, or delivering a memorable closing argument, the art of storytelling has the power to humanize clients and bring justice to life.
In this episode, we welcome Ariel Clemmer, Executive Director of 603 Legal Aid, a legal advice and referral center in Concord, New Hampshire that hosts a central call center for people seeking civil legal assistance. During this show, we dive into how attorneys use storytelling to advocate for their clients, how pro bono work has shaped Ariel’s perspective on the legal system, and how storytelling makes opening and closing statements more compelling and memorable.
For more information about 603 Legal Aid, visit https://www.603legalaid.org/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Starfish Storytellers, the podcast that makes a difference one story
(00:04):
to time by bringing storytelling to life.
(00:32):
The Twilight Zone by Nathan L. Hecht
The television drama The Twilight Zone portrayed characters in disturbing situations set in
the murky area between reality and the dark unknown.
Most episodes had a moral.
Here's my thought for a new one.
You're driving across the country.
(00:54):
It's late afternoon and you haven't eaten for hours.
Hunger is starting to nudge you.
You enter a town eager to find food.
You're about to enter the Twilight Zone.
The first place you stop is lit up with a big neon sign.
You get out of your car and walk up to the front door.
It's locked and dark.
(01:16):
That's strange, you think?
Other places are open and the sign is all lit up, but this place is closed.
I'll take my business elsewhere, you mutter, as you walk back to your car.
You drive down the street.
There's another place.
It too is all lit up and this time you see people inside.
You get out of your car and walk up to the door.
(01:38):
But again, it's locked.
You pound on it, but no one inside seems to notice.
Beside the door, there's a machine with a sign on it.
To enter, please insert cash.
$100 bills only.
You think that's outrageous just to get something to eat, no way.
(01:59):
Prustrated, you drive further down the street.
You come to another place and this time there's a fellow sitting out front.
You tell him you're looking for something to eat.
You a member, he says.
Member you respond.
This isn't a club.
I just need something to eat.
Nope, he says.
Not a member.
(02:19):
You don't belong here.
You turn on your heels and stomp back to your car.
This is getting crazy, but hope lies ahead.
Another place, this one with the lights on and the door open and lots of people inside.
Finally, you think some food.
Inside you're handed an order form several pages long and complicated.
(02:40):
You must order with codes, but you have no idea what they are.
This is impossible, you think.
You look around, all the food that's offered requires extended professional preparation
and it's expensive.
Nothing simple for a hungry traveler.
Despairing, you wander out and a voice says behind you, have a nice day, come back anytime.
(03:05):
What kind of town has nothing for an ordinary person to eat?
A truck to your car, dusk is falling, you're in the Twilight Zone.
(03:29):
Food is important, so is justice.
But for many, justice seems as far out of reach as food for this traveler.
The signs out front are all lit up.
The American commitment to the rule of law is fabled.
When I was a trial judge, I told jurors as each case began, you are privileged to be
(03:53):
part of the best system of justice not just in the world, but in the history of the world.
Many were proud to serve, but when people needed the system to serve them, in far too
many instances it can seem beyond reach.
America's claims about the nation's justice system are lofty.
(04:14):
James Madison famously wrote in Federalist number 51, justice is the end of government,
it is the end of civil society.
It ever has been and ever will be pursued until it's obtained or until liberty be lost
in the pursuit.
His collaborator Alexander Hamilton is said to have called justice the first duty of society.
(04:37):
Yet in poll after poll, Americans report that the justice system is too expensive, too hard
to navigate, too far removed from real people, as closed as if the doors were locked.
Across the country, millions of people try to represent themselves in court.
Abraham Lincoln had it right.
(04:59):
He who represents himself has a fool for a client, but for many there is no other choice.
And far too many Americans have no idea they need the justice system.
They have no way to recognize legal problems when they arise.
They don't know that they're hungry.
(05:20):
Most distressing of all many Americans view is that the justice system like the government
in general is simply not theirs.
Much work is being done to improve access to justice.
Lawyers in a proud tradition of their profession represent needy clients without charge, pro
bono público, or the public good.
(05:41):
The Texas Bar Association estimated that lawyers in the state, where I am a judge donate more
than 2 million hours annually, conservatively worth half a billion dollars.
Legal aid provides basic civil legal services free of cost to the poor and economically
struggling.
That is people whose income is usually no more than 125% of the federal poverty guidelines.
(06:06):
In 2018, that was just $15,175 for a single person.
Funding comes from Congress through the Federal Legal Services Corporation, sometimes from
state appropriations and other public services, and sometimes from bar associations and private
contributions.
(06:26):
Legal aid, like pro bono services, is not an entitlement.
It's not welfare.
It is simply a good government.
This is an American ideal, not a liberal one or a conservative one.
As a judge, sometimes I identify it as a conservative.
I support improved access to justice because I am convinced that this nation is strongest
(06:47):
when its basic institutions fulfill their missions, and as a judge, I feel a special
responsibility to help legal institutions fulfill theirs.
Basic civil legal services help victims of domestic violence, veterans returning from
deployment, needing employment, housing and benefits, children in school and the elderly.
(07:11):
Legal aid is compassionate and morally right.
Using individuals to resolve legal problems strengthens families and communities.
Legal aid is constructive.
Study after study around the country concludes that legal aid, directly and indirectly, benefits
economies.
Legal aid is good for businesses and taxpayers.
(07:32):
Legal aid providers offer cases and training to lawyers who will work pro bono with those
who have no other way of getting the help they need.
Thus leveraging legal aid funding to provide more representation.
And legal aid makes the promises of the American justice system real when they otherwise would
(07:53):
be a farce.
And in that way, legal aid is critical to the integrity of the rule of law.
Yet legal aid is only available to a fraction, those who need it, by some estimates no more
than half, by others less than a fifth.
Justice for only those who can afford it is neither justice for all, nor justice at all.
(08:18):
If the justice system is to deliver on the faith America asks people to place on it,
and on the values it claims to preserve, greatly improved access to justice is an imperative.
(08:42):
Hello.
My name is Leanna Henry and welcome to the Starfish Storytellers.
I'm the CEO of the Black Dog Group, a Marcom and project management firm headquartered on
the east coast of the US in Claint Colonial Bedford, Massachusetts.
(09:03):
I'm your host and passionate about storytelling.
I'm actually on a mission to raise up the next generation of storytellers.
We've named ourselves the Starfish Storytellers after the Starfish Story.
The moral of the Starfish Story is based on the power of one.
No matter how big the challenge, each action we take makes a difference and has an impact.
One step, one starfish, or one story at a time.
(09:27):
Every episode we welcome a new storyteller who will share their story meant to inspire
and connect with you.
Then we'll break it down and offer tips for any listeners who are ready to tell their
own stories.
So thanks for tuning in.
Now let's get started.
Today's episode is justice through storytelling, the art of advocacy.
And with me today is Ariel Klemmer.
(09:49):
Ariel is the executive director of 603 Legal Aid, a legal advice and referral center in
Concord, New Hampshire that hosts a central call center for people seeking civil legal
aid.
Say that correctly.
So I just wanted to say thank you for being here and I'm really happy that you are joining
us today.
(10:09):
Thank you so much for having me.
So at the start of each episode, our guests take a few moments to introduce themselves.
Would you like to tell us a little bit more about you?
Sure.
So I'm sitting, as you said today with you from Concord, New Hampshire.
I actually grew up about an hour from north from here in the upper valley of the state.
(10:33):
And I went to college in Virginia at the University of Richmond.
And after college had applied to go to law school, but ended up deferring law school
to become a teacher with Teach for America.
I did that in New York City in the Spanish Harlem region.
And following that, I did go to law school.
I did then practice.
(10:56):
I had about a 10-year litigation career back in New York City.
I like to say that I did murders, millionaires, and mistresses as kind of the three subject
matter types that I did.
That was public defense and big law firm, white collar, criminal work, and family law
cases.
(11:18):
After that, I moved to Western Massachusetts.
And in Springfield, I worked at the Bar Association running a pro bono program for lawyers to
provide free civil legal services, as well as became the director of the Center for Social
Justice at Western New England University School of Law, running free legal service advocacy
(11:38):
programs with law students and other pro bono volunteers.
And then recently, just about a year ago, moved back here to New Hampshire and became
the executive director of 603 Legal Aid.
Now, 603 Legal Aid is a newer name, correct?
I think I read on your website that it had been called something else.
(11:59):
But are the services pretty much the same or has it changed?
Yes.
I was just talking with somebody yesterday about how we became not just the sum of its
parts, but greater than the sum of its parts in some way.
So we brought together the pro bono program from the New Hampshire Bar Association, as
(12:20):
well as the legal assistance and referral center, which was a brief legal advice call
center together to become 603 Legal Aid in 2021.
We do free legal services in-house.
So we provide brief legal advice and representation for people in a variety of civil legal areas,
(12:44):
primarily family law, housing.
And this year, we've added a new consumer unit as well as a brand new veterans assistance
program.
And our partners in the state of New Hampshire provide sort of the whole spectrum of legal
services that people may need across the state.
(13:06):
You said, is the veteran services something that's newer?
It is.
We got a grant from the VA this year, and it's a prevention of homelessness grant.
Luckily the VA, like we see the prevention of homelessness as almost any kind of civil
legal case, whether that's something that stems from just being a low income individual
(13:30):
and having credit card debt or other kinds of financial challenges to facing an eviction
case and actually physically losing your home to a family law matter where if you have a
dispute with your spouse and you need to move out, that is also putting somebody at risk
of homelessness.
(13:50):
So it's a very broad grant and work where we can integrate it throughout all of our
free legal services.
But we also had our new staff attorney get accredited with the VA, and so they can also
bring veteran specific cases around discharge upgrades or other types of cases directly
(14:11):
with the VA.
Nice, nice.
So important, just such a need.
We have a VA here in Bedford, Mass and a hospital and services, and there's just such a need
for services.
Yeah, it really is.
(14:33):
Hi.
So again, thank you for sharing your story with us.
That whole Twilight Zone analogy just I think really drove it home.
You know, it can be very confusing when you have a need and no matter where you go, you
aren't able to get the services that you need.
(14:55):
I'm a communicator now.
In my previous life, I was a social worker for 23 years, and I did case management for
the state and for families and children that were neglected and abused.
It was always, we had to do referrals and it was always a challenge to try to find services
(15:18):
for families that needed it.
It's such a confusing system.
I love that story and I actually read the story, tell the story in a class called Access
to Justice that I have taught previously at the law school that I was working at because
it paints such a clear picture for people.
(15:40):
You can see coming to, finally you get to this restaurant, you've navigated all of these
barriers and then you can't even place the order because the menu is in code.
It's so emblematic of the barriers and the frustrations that our clients have in navigating
(16:01):
the system by themselves.
Unfortunately, it's just not set up for people to be able to navigate the justice system.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And that's good that there, obviously that you exist for them.
In this episode, we do want to talk about how you're getting legal justice for clients
(16:24):
and storytelling align.
So we're going to dive into the power of storytelling.
For attorneys, storytelling is more than just a skill.
It's a critical tool for representing clients effectively.
Whether you're painting a vivid picture or an opening statement, you're weaving evidence
into a compelling narrative or you're delivering a memorable closing argument, the art of storytelling
(16:45):
has the power to humanize clients and bring justice to life.
Today we're going to talk about how attorneys use storytelling to advocate for their clients,
especially in the high stakes world of pro bono cases.
So if you're ready, we'll dive right in.
Let's do it.
So you said in your story that you were a judge and but what inspired you to become an
(17:14):
attorney?
So just to be clear, I was not a judge.
This is a story written by a pretty famous judge.
She's a prominent figure in the Access to Justice community.
His name is Nathan Hecht and he was the Supreme Court Chief Judge in Texas from 2013 until
(17:39):
just December 31 of last year.
A pretty revered figure and somebody who's really pushed the envelope on access to justice
throughout his career.
And so was he the inspiration for you to really become a lawyer?
(18:00):
People like him.
I think what first inspired me to get involved was actually when I was in college, as I mentioned
in Virginia, I was in Richmond, Virginia, and doing some work in some local prisons
there.
And it was one of the first times coming from the Northeast.
It was one of the first times that I dealt with the real impact of systemic racism in
(18:25):
a way that I just had not been exposed to before.
And that really lit a fire in me to set out to address injustices wherever they may lie.
And I love the story of the starfish because I sort of feel like that has really motivated
my whole career of trying to figure out just one person, but how much can I do and where
(18:50):
can I make an impact even if it's just me throwing things back into the ocean?
And I think as we have sort of created our podcast based on that story, when I was a
social worker, actually, I was a trainer for foster parents.
And we used to always tell that story, I think maybe the last night of the training, because
(19:14):
we wanted them to understand that they were making a difference one child at a time and
that even if there were so many children that needed help, what they were doing made a difference
to that one.
And so what you're doing makes a difference to your clients, to that one client at one
at a time.
Yeah, it can be really frustrating because as you said, you feel like you're just one
(19:38):
person and there's this ocean of problems that you're stacked up against.
And particularly in the civil legal system, unlike in the criminal context, in civil legal
cases, there's no guarantee of an attorney.
So when you have a criminal case, they tell you if you can't afford it, a lawyer will
be provided to you.
(19:59):
There's nothing like that for cases where you might lose custody of your children or
you might lose the roof over your head or the bottom line dollars that help you feed
your family every month.
There's just no guarantee of any sort of representation or assistance.
And so the statistics are staggering in terms of the number of people that need help and
(20:23):
then the amount of people that actually get help from organizations like mine.
But all we can do is make that difference for the people that we are able to reach and
encourage people to contact us and hope that each day that we can do a little bit better
in assisting people get closer to accidentally justice.
Yeah.
Yep.
(20:43):
Yep.
So you've already talked with us about 603 Legal Aid.
Is there anything else you want to add as to the process for helping new clients?
Sure.
In general, when 603 Legal Aid was created, it became the centralized hub, as you said
(21:10):
early on, of intake for the state.
And so everyone with any civil legal issue across all of New Hampshire is meant to contact
603 Legal Aid first.
We have a robust intake team who will process all of those calls upwards of 10,000 people
a year, as well as people can apply online directly on our website, 603legalaid.org,
(21:34):
and 24 hours a day.
And then we process those applications as well.
So we're really the first starting point for people that need any sort of free civil
legal services in New Hampshire.
And then from there, we determine does this person have a legal case?
If so, who's the right provider of free legal services to assist them?
(21:57):
It could be us in-house.
I described some of the services that we provide.
Or we also run the state's pro bono program, so we might decide to place them with a free
attorney from the private bar who's donating their time.
Or we may decide that they are best served by one of our partners across the state, like
New Hampshire Legal Assistance or the Disability Rights Center, who take on other kinds of
(22:21):
cases and other strategies of representation for someone.
OK, so lots of options there, it sounds like, which is good, which is needed.
So I have a question.
So is there a difference in how an attorney might use storytelling when representing clients
pro bono as compared to other cases?
(22:45):
It's a really interesting question.
In these pro bono cases, or I'm going to generalize it up to be free legal services type cases,
because we sort of do both of those things here in-house.
As I said before, the stakes are so high that storytelling becomes almost like an imperative
(23:11):
of the advocate when you're in front of court or even when you're in settlement negotiations
with an opposing party, and you need to convince them that this person, this particular client,
deserves XYZ, whatever you're seeking for them.
And so I'm sure all lawyers feel an obligation to storytell, but I can certainly say that
(23:39):
in my career, whether it was as a public defender trying to get somebody out of jail, or whether
it was in a divorce case talking to the other side, trying to get some specific outcome
that my client really believed in to the kinds of cases we do here where we're helping people
(23:59):
keep the roof over their head for an additional three months, each of those scenarios really
require a slightly different but a very profound version of storytelling that enables that person
to get the justice that they deserve.
Yeah.
(24:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, not that all of the cases that you're talking about, public defender versus free,
you know, legal aid, aren't important, but it seems like those with the need for the
(24:44):
legal aid, there's certain a level of urgency that maybe is different or not as present
in some of the public defender cases.
Would you say that that might be accurate?
Yeah.
I think to a certain extent, that's totally true, particularly when cases go on longer,
(25:10):
you know, some types of federal cases, sometimes of other cases do go on for quite a while,
and particularly if the client is out of the incarceration system, you know, there's slightly
less urgency, although I believe everybody should get their case adjudicated as quickly
as possible in any context.
(25:30):
But you're right that in our cases, like we run a very robust domestic violence program
for the state, you know, those cases, sometimes 24-hour turnarounds or people sometimes call
us the same day as they're hearing and say, help, what am I going to say to the court
today?
And, you know, the sense of urgency there is real.
(25:51):
We have sometimes hours to be able to convey to somebody the important information that
they need to move their case ahead.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So storytelling is key.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So let's talk about when cases get into the courtroom.
So when preparing an opening statement, how would you approach building a narrative for
(26:12):
a jury?
And do you find that you have to balance legal facts with emotional resonance to create an
impactful opening?
Absolutely.
There's no doubt that that is a critical exercise that any lawyer is trying to do when
they're in front of a judge, in front of a jury, you know, they're really taking the
(26:37):
facts and storytelling with them in a way that best puts their client in the right light
and conveys the information the way that they want it to go.
So that's true of opening statements.
For sure, it's the first opportunity that somebody has to get in front of the jury and
to kind of capture their hearts and minds and socialize them to any of the sort of story
(27:03):
lines that you're going to be telling throughout the trial.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I mean, I think when I knew that we were going to have an opportunity to talk and have you
on the show, I just, I thought about, you know, opening statements are just like closing
statements are, they're all stories.
I mean, they have to be.
And they have to be compelling.
(27:25):
That's right.
So then I wanted to ask about some challenges maybe that you might face and so how you make
an impact with the representation that you provide.
Are there any challenges that you might face when you're trying to tell that compelling
story with a pro bono case?
(27:47):
Yes.
I think there's a couple factors that make this challenging.
One is something that I bumped into a lot when I was a public defender, which is the
exceptional client storytelling that happens.
You know, it's hard when you're a repeat player in a system, like you see the same prosecutor
(28:10):
every day, the same judge, you know, three times a week to go in front of them and to
deliver this narrative about why this particular client deserves to get out of jail or a later
sentence or whatever it is that you're seeking when you need to do the same thing for every
(28:31):
client.
And so you kind of run into this, you know, exceptional client issue where you don't want
to pit these people against each other, but how do you say, you know, time and time again,
this particular client deserves this and then, you know, the next time around this particular
client deserves that.
(28:52):
And there's inevitably this sort of comparison between stories that get told with repeat
actors in the same core ecosystem.
So that was one challenge and something that lawyers have to be careful of.
The other challenge, and this is just more procedurally, but you have to be really careful
(29:14):
about client confidentiality and privilege.
And so one of the things we rely on storytelling a lot in my current position to get funding,
it's one of the ways that we can convey to people who are supporting our work and allowing
us to keep the lights on about the importance of our work and about the ways that we are
(29:35):
able to make meaningful impacts in our clients' lives.
And so we want to tell people stories and yet we don't want to use them in a sense that
could be, you know, taken the wrong way or feel, you know, used by us for that purpose,
(29:55):
but we also have to maintain confidentiality.
So for instance, I pulled a couple of client stories for you today that I could share,
but we changed names, we changed, you know, certain facts to make sure that they were
untraceable in our small court system that we have here.
And we always get permission from our clients before we use their names or before we use
(30:19):
identifying information in a story.
But we do do that publicly all the time on our social medias, in grant applications.
It's really a fundamental piece of what we do.
Are you primarily funded by grants?
We are.
We have, the majority of our funding right now comes from the Legal Services Corporation,
which is a pass-through entity of federal funding for civil legal aid.
(30:44):
Every state has at least one LSC-funded entity and we are at that in New Hampshire.
The rest of our funding comes from a whole variety of sources, mostly grants and donations.
And it, you know, varies year to year, it's always seeking new sources and coming up with
(31:05):
innovative ways to bring additional services to the community.
And so that's how we primarily survive.
Well, and obviously you have to get really good at fundraising stories.
So yeah.
So looking at the other end of a case in court is the closing argument and closing arguments
(31:30):
have very important stories, hold very important stories because that's where the decision
is going to be made.
That's, you know, so in your opinion, what would make a closing statement memorable and
persuasive?
Yep.
There's a couple of key things I think just like in the beginning, you know, this is your
(31:55):
final opportunity to paint a picture before the jurors or the judge who's going to be
the decision maker.
You definitely want to keep it succinct so that people don't get lost in the story.
You know, it can be tempting to sort of want to put on a summary of all the evidence and
(32:15):
everything that happened, but really, I think the most effective stories and the most effective
closing statements are ones that are shorter and punchier and kind of really outlie exactly
what you've been able to prove throughout the duration of the case that supports your
case theory, whatever that may be.
(32:38):
You know, I think about closing statements in some of the cases that obviously you see
on TV, either fictionally or not fiction, the ones that are, you know, sort of the bigger
sensationalized ones that you see.
And I can just, I can remember certain cases, they're very memorable, you know, because
(33:00):
the lawyers really had, sometimes they used props, sometimes they did use that key piece
of evidence and brought it back to remind the jurors.
So those things are very persuasive.
And I would imagine, I would imagine, I mean, I'm sure that the jurors are very attentive,
(33:27):
but I'm guessing in cases where it might be a long case or where there's a lot of evidence,
it could probably, they might forget or it might be hard to remember it all.
Yes, that's true.
And I think that's why you want to, you know, without taking too much time to cover everything
that happened because they're able to ask, you know, follow up questions or if they have
(33:51):
points of clarification that they need, they can always do that later on.
But you do want to, as you said, make it memorable, you know, bring in something where it will
stay with them, it's not unheard of in the field of particularly criminal defense for
people to put glasses on their clients if they, you know, even if they don't normally
(34:15):
have it because that conveys a certain kind of individual that they want their client
to be seen as.
So there's lots of ways to captivate people and to convey to them, you know, the message
that you're trying to send.
Yeah.
(34:35):
So can you share a time when storytelling had made a significant difference in the outcome
of a case and is there a certain technique you think that can leave a lasting impression,
which I think we sort of talked about that, but I'm really interested in, you know, and
obviously confidentiality is, you know, key.
But yeah, I was just curious, you know, is there anything that sort of comes to mind?
(35:00):
Yeah, immediately a couple of cases come from my public defense days, one case in which
my client was this very large kind of imposing looking figure and the opponent was a very
small, you know, older man, and we basically did storytelling in this way of communicating
(35:33):
just how sort of ludicrous the opponent's story was that this my client who was, like
I said, he was a bouncer, you know, he had serious muscles and was very large and that
the story that the opposing party was telling just wouldn't have possibly made sense because
(35:57):
if it happened the way that they were relaying, this was a car dispute, you know, a bumper
situation or car dispute, alleged my client got out of the car and sort of roughed this
guy up.
Had my client actually done that, you know, there would be a lot worse facts that came
out in the case and so we basically use reverse storytelling to say, you know, here's why
(36:20):
this other story doesn't make sense and then here's what really likely happened.
And my client one was a great case, he had refused to plead guilty the whole way along,
even though the prosecutor was willing to offer him something where it would have just
gone away eventually, he was adamant that he was not guilty and he was not going to
(36:42):
plead to anything and I was really proud of him because at the end of the day, he knew
what, you know, what he wanted to do and we took his direction and he ended up proving
his case through sort of this reverse storytelling technique.
So that definitely worked well.
Yeah.
(37:03):
Yeah.
So if there are any aspiring attorneys out there who may want to follow this path into
practicing law this way, what advice would you give them?
I would tell them to get involved as soon as possible and as many ways they can.
(37:24):
I'm always counseling young folks to just give it a try, you know, and that it's a great
time when you're young, when you're in college, when you're thinking about law school, wherever
it is in your career, I've even had high school interns before in my practices, you know,
I think there's no wrong time to get involved and the more diverse experiences that you
(37:48):
have, the more you learn about what you like doing and what really calls to you.
We have a pair of legal here who started law school and is intending to go back to law
school and I think had a major of, you know, IP law or something and after two months of
working here in the family law unit said, yep, I'm changing my mind.
(38:12):
This is what I want to do for my career and we hear lots of those stories.
It's why I worked, you know, primarily with law students when I was running the program
at the Center for Social Justice because it was such a great way to get them in the door,
in the courts, you know, really one-on-one contact with clients and those experiences
(38:33):
can help somebody develop, you know, their career path and decide what they really want
to focus on.
That's wonderful.
And like you said, start early and get active right away.
Yep.
And don't be afraid to try different things, you know.
I have some regrets that I knew I wanted to be a public defender.
(38:55):
I was a little bit older, you know, I had worked for a couple of years before I went
to law school and I basically zeroed in on becoming a public defender, which is fine,
but now I counsel others to sort of not follow in those footsteps and really try it all out
because, you know, my, as a result, my career, I've tried out different, like I said, types
(39:16):
of law throughout my career and that's been fine.
They've all been litigation-side focused, but it's great if you can do that, you know,
for summer internships or even semester programs or even just volunteering.
There are so many nonprofits and legal aid organizations that would welcome somebody
(39:36):
who could come five hours a week after school, could still make a big difference.
What kinds of things would somebody who came to legal aid to volunteer, what kinds of things
might they be able to help with?
So depending on their level of experience and education, they would be able to do different
(39:58):
things.
The law students that I worked with were full on advocates for clients, you know, with supervision,
obviously, but we took them to the court.
They made arguments in front of the court magistrates and were able to counsel clients
directly with college-aged interns or even high school age.
(40:20):
They assist in the office, you know, they'll sit in on calls.
They might do some preliminary drafting of documents or assist.
We're having, we have a social work intern right now and she's assisting us with creating
a client resources guide, which is such a valuable tool, as I'm sure you know from your
(40:42):
career.
And something that is well suited for an intern type activity, you know, that we can continue
building on year over year and that can really provide people with the information that it
can be hard to figure out on their own.
Yeah, and having that, having that guide at your fingertips to be able to pass that on
(41:03):
is going to be huge.
So that's a huge help.
Yeah.
No, that's great.
That's great.
Okay.
Oh, so we talked about if folks needed legal help and if they wanted to reach you, what
was the best way?
I know that you said you had, people can apply even right online if you wanted to give your
(41:28):
website again, I'm guessing like your phone number and address and everything is there.
Yep.
So it's www.603 legal aid, that's L-E-G-A-L-A-I-D.org.
And that's our main website.
(41:49):
You can find all of our contact information there.
You can also apply directly online for our services 24 hours a day.
We also run, as I mentioned, the call center.
We field calls between 9 and 2 p.m. on Monday through Thursday and that call line is either
1-800-639-5290 or if you're in New Hampshire, 603-224-3333.
(42:20):
And you primarily, your entity serves all of New Hampshire, right?
That's right.
Okay.
So that's all of the civil legal cases, even if it's not one that we handle, we still
field that call on behalf of our partners across the state.
Great.
All right.
Well, that's all the time we have for today.
(42:43):
Thank you so much, Ariel, for being here and being our guest and sharing your story.
I just, I really enjoyed that whole Twilight Zone reference and, you know, just kind of
hearing how you got to where you are.
It was just really great to hear.
Thanks so much for having me.
(43:04):
And to our listeners, whether you hear us locally from the BTV studios in Bedford, Massachusetts
or across the globe on such channels as Spotify, Apple Podcasts or Amazon Prime, thanks for
listening.
We hope you enjoyed this episode and we'll see you next time.
Happy storytelling.
Welcome to the Starfish Storytellers, the podcast that makes a difference one story
(00:04):
to time by bringing storytelling to life.
(00:32):
The Twilight Zone by Nathan L. Hecht
The television drama The Twilight Zone portrayed characters in disturbing situations set in
the murky area between reality and the dark unknown.
Most episodes had a moral.
Here's my thought for a new one.
You're driving across the country.
(00:54):
It's late afternoon and you haven't eaten for hours.
Hunger is starting to nudge you.
You enter a town eager to find food.
You're about to enter the Twilight Zone.
The first place you stop is lit up with a big neon sign.
You get out of your car and walk up to the front door.
It's locked and dark.
(01:16):
That's strange, you think?
Other places are open and the sign is all lit up, but this place is closed.
I'll take my business elsewhere, you mutter, as you walk back to your car.
You drive down the street.
There's another place.
It too is all lit up and this time you see people inside.
You get out of your car and walk up to the door.
(01:38):
But again, it's locked.
You pound on it, but no one inside seems to notice.
Beside the door, there's a machine with a sign on it.
To enter, please insert cash.
$100 bills only.
You think that's outrageous just to get something to eat, no way.
(01:59):
Prustrated, you drive further down the street.
You come to another place and this time there's a fellow sitting out front.
You tell him you're looking for something to eat.
You a member, he says.
Member you respond.
This isn't a club.
I just need something to eat.
Nope, he says.
Not a member.
(02:19):
You don't belong here.
You turn on your heels and stomp back to your car.
This is getting crazy, but hope lies ahead.
Another place, this one with the lights on and the door open and lots of people inside.
Finally, you think some food.
Inside you're handed an order form several pages long and complicated.
(02:40):
You must order with codes, but you have no idea what they are.
This is impossible, you think.
You look around, all the food that's offered requires extended professional preparation
and it's expensive.
Nothing simple for a hungry traveler.
Despairing, you wander out and a voice says behind you, have a nice day, come back anytime.
(03:05):
What kind of town has nothing for an ordinary person to eat?
A truck to your car, dusk is falling, you're in the Twilight Zone.
(03:29):
Food is important, so is justice.
But for many, justice seems as far out of reach as food for this traveler.
The signs out front are all lit up.
The American commitment to the rule of law is fabled.
When I was a trial judge, I told jurors as each case began, you are privileged to be
(03:53):
part of the best system of justice not just in the world, but in the history of the world.
Many were proud to serve, but when people needed the system to serve them, in far too
many instances it can seem beyond reach.
America's claims about the nation's justice system are lofty.
(04:14):
James Madison famously wrote in Federalist number 51, justice is the end of government,
it is the end of civil society.
It ever has been and ever will be pursued until it's obtained or until liberty be lost
in the pursuit.
His collaborator Alexander Hamilton is said to have called justice the first duty of society.
(04:37):
Yet in poll after poll, Americans report that the justice system is too expensive, too hard
to navigate, too far removed from real people, as closed as if the doors were locked.
Across the country, millions of people try to represent themselves in court.
Abraham Lincoln had it right.
(04:59):
He who represents himself has a fool for a client, but for many there is no other choice.
And far too many Americans have no idea they need the justice system.
They have no way to recognize legal problems when they arise.
They don't know that they're hungry.
(05:20):
Most distressing of all many Americans view is that the justice system like the government
in general is simply not theirs.
Much work is being done to improve access to justice.
Lawyers in a proud tradition of their profession represent needy clients without charge, pro
bono público, or the public good.
(05:41):
The Texas Bar Association estimated that lawyers in the state, where I am a judge donate more
than 2 million hours annually, conservatively worth half a billion dollars.
Legal aid provides basic civil legal services free of cost to the poor and economically
struggling.
That is people whose income is usually no more than 125% of the federal poverty guidelines.
(06:06):
In 2018, that was just $15,175 for a single person.
Funding comes from Congress through the Federal Legal Services Corporation, sometimes from
state appropriations and other public services, and sometimes from bar associations and private
contributions.
(06:26):
Legal aid, like pro bono services, is not an entitlement.
It's not welfare.
It is simply a good government.
This is an American ideal, not a liberal one or a conservative one.
As a judge, sometimes I identify it as a conservative.
I support improved access to justice because I am convinced that this nation is strongest
(06:47):
when its basic institutions fulfill their missions, and as a judge, I feel a special
responsibility to help legal institutions fulfill theirs.
Basic civil legal services help victims of domestic violence, veterans returning from
deployment, needing employment, housing and benefits, children in school and the elderly.
(07:11):
Legal aid is compassionate and morally right.
Using individuals to resolve legal problems strengthens families and communities.
Legal aid is constructive.
Study after study around the country concludes that legal aid, directly and indirectly, benefits
economies.
Legal aid is good for businesses and taxpayers.
(07:32):
Legal aid providers offer cases and training to lawyers who will work pro bono with those
who have no other way of getting the help they need.
Thus leveraging legal aid funding to provide more representation.
And legal aid makes the promises of the American justice system real when they otherwise would
(07:53):
be a farce.
And in that way, legal aid is critical to the integrity of the rule of law.
Yet legal aid is only available to a fraction, those who need it, by some estimates no more
than half, by others less than a fifth.
Justice for only those who can afford it is neither justice for all, nor justice at all.
(08:18):
If the justice system is to deliver on the faith America asks people to place on it,
and on the values it claims to preserve, greatly improved access to justice is an imperative.
(08:42):
Hello.
My name is Leanna Henry and welcome to the Starfish Storytellers.
I'm the CEO of the Black Dog Group, a Marcom and project management firm headquartered on
the east coast of the US in Claint Colonial Bedford, Massachusetts.
(09:03):
I'm your host and passionate about storytelling.
I'm actually on a mission to raise up the next generation of storytellers.
We've named ourselves the Starfish Storytellers after the Starfish Story.
The moral of the Starfish Story is based on the power of one.
No matter how big the challenge, each action we take makes a difference and has an impact.
One step, one starfish, or one story at a time.
(09:27):
Every episode we welcome a new storyteller who will share their story meant to inspire
and connect with you.
Then we'll break it down and offer tips for any listeners who are ready to tell their
own stories.
So thanks for tuning in.
Now let's get started.
Today's episode is justice through storytelling, the art of advocacy.
And with me today is Ariel Klemmer.
(09:49):
Ariel is the executive director of 603 Legal Aid, a legal advice and referral center in
Concord, New Hampshire that hosts a central call center for people seeking civil legal
aid.
Say that correctly.
So I just wanted to say thank you for being here and I'm really happy that you are joining
us today.
(10:09):
Thank you so much for having me.
So at the start of each episode, our guests take a few moments to introduce themselves.
Would you like to tell us a little bit more about you?
Sure.
So I'm sitting, as you said today with you from Concord, New Hampshire.
I actually grew up about an hour from north from here in the upper valley of the state.
(10:33):
And I went to college in Virginia at the University of Richmond.
And after college had applied to go to law school, but ended up deferring law school
to become a teacher with Teach for America.
I did that in New York City in the Spanish Harlem region.
And following that, I did go to law school.
I did then practice.
(10:56):
I had about a 10-year litigation career back in New York City.
I like to say that I did murders, millionaires, and mistresses as kind of the three subject
matter types that I did.
That was public defense and big law firm, white collar, criminal work, and family law
cases.
(11:18):
After that, I moved to Western Massachusetts.
And in Springfield, I worked at the Bar Association running a pro bono program for lawyers to
provide free civil legal services, as well as became the director of the Center for Social
Justice at Western New England University School of Law, running free legal service advocacy
(11:38):
programs with law students and other pro bono volunteers.
And then recently, just about a year ago, moved back here to New Hampshire and became
the executive director of 603 Legal Aid.
Now, 603 Legal Aid is a newer name, correct?
I think I read on your website that it had been called something else.
(11:59):
But are the services pretty much the same or has it changed?
Yes.
I was just talking with somebody yesterday about how we became not just the sum of its
parts, but greater than the sum of its parts in some way.
So we brought together the pro bono program from the New Hampshire Bar Association, as
(12:20):
well as the legal assistance and referral center, which was a brief legal advice call
center together to become 603 Legal Aid in 2021.
We do free legal services in-house.
So we provide brief legal advice and representation for people in a variety of civil legal areas,
(12:44):
primarily family law, housing.
And this year, we've added a new consumer unit as well as a brand new veterans assistance
program.
And our partners in the state of New Hampshire provide sort of the whole spectrum of legal
services that people may need across the state.
(13:06):
You said, is the veteran services something that's newer?
It is.
We got a grant from the VA this year, and it's a prevention of homelessness grant.
Luckily the VA, like we see the prevention of homelessness as almost any kind of civil
legal case, whether that's something that stems from just being a low income individual
(13:30):
and having credit card debt or other kinds of financial challenges to facing an eviction
case and actually physically losing your home to a family law matter where if you have a
dispute with your spouse and you need to move out, that is also putting somebody at risk
of homelessness.
(13:50):
So it's a very broad grant and work where we can integrate it throughout all of our
free legal services.
But we also had our new staff attorney get accredited with the VA, and so they can also
bring veteran specific cases around discharge upgrades or other types of cases directly
(14:11):
with the VA.
Nice, nice.
So important, just such a need.
We have a VA here in Bedford, Mass and a hospital and services, and there's just such a need
for services.
Yeah, it really is.
(14:33):
Hi.
So again, thank you for sharing your story with us.
That whole Twilight Zone analogy just I think really drove it home.
You know, it can be very confusing when you have a need and no matter where you go, you
aren't able to get the services that you need.
(14:55):
I'm a communicator now.
In my previous life, I was a social worker for 23 years, and I did case management for
the state and for families and children that were neglected and abused.
It was always, we had to do referrals and it was always a challenge to try to find services
(15:18):
for families that needed it.
It's such a confusing system.
I love that story and I actually read the story, tell the story in a class called Access
to Justice that I have taught previously at the law school that I was working at because
it paints such a clear picture for people.
(15:40):
You can see coming to, finally you get to this restaurant, you've navigated all of these
barriers and then you can't even place the order because the menu is in code.
It's so emblematic of the barriers and the frustrations that our clients have in navigating
(16:01):
the system by themselves.
Unfortunately, it's just not set up for people to be able to navigate the justice system.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And that's good that there, obviously that you exist for them.
In this episode, we do want to talk about how you're getting legal justice for clients
(16:24):
and storytelling align.
So we're going to dive into the power of storytelling.
For attorneys, storytelling is more than just a skill.
It's a critical tool for representing clients effectively.
Whether you're painting a vivid picture or an opening statement, you're weaving evidence
into a compelling narrative or you're delivering a memorable closing argument, the art of storytelling
(16:45):
has the power to humanize clients and bring justice to life.
Today we're going to talk about how attorneys use storytelling to advocate for their clients,
especially in the high stakes world of pro bono cases.
So if you're ready, we'll dive right in.
Let's do it.
So you said in your story that you were a judge and but what inspired you to become an
(17:14):
attorney?
So just to be clear, I was not a judge.
This is a story written by a pretty famous judge.
She's a prominent figure in the Access to Justice community.
His name is Nathan Hecht and he was the Supreme Court Chief Judge in Texas from 2013 until
(17:39):
just December 31 of last year.
A pretty revered figure and somebody who's really pushed the envelope on access to justice
throughout his career.
And so was he the inspiration for you to really become a lawyer?
(18:00):
People like him.
I think what first inspired me to get involved was actually when I was in college, as I mentioned
in Virginia, I was in Richmond, Virginia, and doing some work in some local prisons
there.
And it was one of the first times coming from the Northeast.
It was one of the first times that I dealt with the real impact of systemic racism in
(18:25):
a way that I just had not been exposed to before.
And that really lit a fire in me to set out to address injustices wherever they may lie.
And I love the story of the starfish because I sort of feel like that has really motivated
my whole career of trying to figure out just one person, but how much can I do and where
(18:50):
can I make an impact even if it's just me throwing things back into the ocean?
And I think as we have sort of created our podcast based on that story, when I was a
social worker, actually, I was a trainer for foster parents.
And we used to always tell that story, I think maybe the last night of the training, because
(19:14):
we wanted them to understand that they were making a difference one child at a time and
that even if there were so many children that needed help, what they were doing made a difference
to that one.
And so what you're doing makes a difference to your clients, to that one client at one
at a time.
Yeah, it can be really frustrating because as you said, you feel like you're just one
(19:38):
person and there's this ocean of problems that you're stacked up against.
And particularly in the civil legal system, unlike in the criminal context, in civil legal
cases, there's no guarantee of an attorney.
So when you have a criminal case, they tell you if you can't afford it, a lawyer will
be provided to you.
(19:59):
There's nothing like that for cases where you might lose custody of your children or
you might lose the roof over your head or the bottom line dollars that help you feed
your family every month.
There's just no guarantee of any sort of representation or assistance.
And so the statistics are staggering in terms of the number of people that need help and
(20:23):
then the amount of people that actually get help from organizations like mine.
But all we can do is make that difference for the people that we are able to reach and
encourage people to contact us and hope that each day that we can do a little bit better
in assisting people get closer to accidentally justice.
Yeah.
Yep.
(20:43):
Yep.
So you've already talked with us about 603 Legal Aid.
Is there anything else you want to add as to the process for helping new clients?
Sure.
In general, when 603 Legal Aid was created, it became the centralized hub, as you said
(21:10):
early on, of intake for the state.
And so everyone with any civil legal issue across all of New Hampshire is meant to contact
603 Legal Aid first.
We have a robust intake team who will process all of those calls upwards of 10,000 people
a year, as well as people can apply online directly on our website, 603legalaid.org,
(21:34):
and 24 hours a day.
And then we process those applications as well.
So we're really the first starting point for people that need any sort of free civil
legal services in New Hampshire.
And then from there, we determine does this person have a legal case?
If so, who's the right provider of free legal services to assist them?
(21:57):
It could be us in-house.
I described some of the services that we provide.
Or we also run the state's pro bono program, so we might decide to place them with a free
attorney from the private bar who's donating their time.
Or we may decide that they are best served by one of our partners across the state, like
New Hampshire Legal Assistance or the Disability Rights Center, who take on other kinds of
(22:21):
cases and other strategies of representation for someone.
OK, so lots of options there, it sounds like, which is good, which is needed.
So I have a question.
So is there a difference in how an attorney might use storytelling when representing clients
pro bono as compared to other cases?
(22:45):
It's a really interesting question.
In these pro bono cases, or I'm going to generalize it up to be free legal services type cases,
because we sort of do both of those things here in-house.
As I said before, the stakes are so high that storytelling becomes almost like an imperative
(23:11):
of the advocate when you're in front of court or even when you're in settlement negotiations
with an opposing party, and you need to convince them that this person, this particular client,
deserves XYZ, whatever you're seeking for them.
And so I'm sure all lawyers feel an obligation to storytell, but I can certainly say that
(23:39):
in my career, whether it was as a public defender trying to get somebody out of jail, or whether
it was in a divorce case talking to the other side, trying to get some specific outcome
that my client really believed in to the kinds of cases we do here where we're helping people
(23:59):
keep the roof over their head for an additional three months, each of those scenarios really
require a slightly different but a very profound version of storytelling that enables that person
to get the justice that they deserve.
Yeah.
(24:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, not that all of the cases that you're talking about, public defender versus free,
you know, legal aid, aren't important, but it seems like those with the need for the
(24:44):
legal aid, there's certain a level of urgency that maybe is different or not as present
in some of the public defender cases.
Would you say that that might be accurate?
Yeah.
I think to a certain extent, that's totally true, particularly when cases go on longer,
(25:10):
you know, some types of federal cases, sometimes of other cases do go on for quite a while,
and particularly if the client is out of the incarceration system, you know, there's slightly
less urgency, although I believe everybody should get their case adjudicated as quickly
as possible in any context.
(25:30):
But you're right that in our cases, like we run a very robust domestic violence program
for the state, you know, those cases, sometimes 24-hour turnarounds or people sometimes call
us the same day as they're hearing and say, help, what am I going to say to the court
today?
And, you know, the sense of urgency there is real.
(25:51):
We have sometimes hours to be able to convey to somebody the important information that
they need to move their case ahead.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So storytelling is key.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So let's talk about when cases get into the courtroom.
So when preparing an opening statement, how would you approach building a narrative for
(26:12):
a jury?
And do you find that you have to balance legal facts with emotional resonance to create an
impactful opening?
Absolutely.
There's no doubt that that is a critical exercise that any lawyer is trying to do when
they're in front of a judge, in front of a jury, you know, they're really taking the
(26:37):
facts and storytelling with them in a way that best puts their client in the right light
and conveys the information the way that they want it to go.
So that's true of opening statements.
For sure, it's the first opportunity that somebody has to get in front of the jury and
to kind of capture their hearts and minds and socialize them to any of the sort of story
(27:03):
lines that you're going to be telling throughout the trial.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I mean, I think when I knew that we were going to have an opportunity to talk and have you
on the show, I just, I thought about, you know, opening statements are just like closing
statements are, they're all stories.
I mean, they have to be.
And they have to be compelling.
(27:25):
That's right.
So then I wanted to ask about some challenges maybe that you might face and so how you make
an impact with the representation that you provide.
Are there any challenges that you might face when you're trying to tell that compelling
story with a pro bono case?
(27:47):
Yes.
I think there's a couple factors that make this challenging.
One is something that I bumped into a lot when I was a public defender, which is the
exceptional client storytelling that happens.
You know, it's hard when you're a repeat player in a system, like you see the same prosecutor
(28:10):
every day, the same judge, you know, three times a week to go in front of them and to
deliver this narrative about why this particular client deserves to get out of jail or a later
sentence or whatever it is that you're seeking when you need to do the same thing for every
(28:31):
client.
And so you kind of run into this, you know, exceptional client issue where you don't want
to pit these people against each other, but how do you say, you know, time and time again,
this particular client deserves this and then, you know, the next time around this particular
client deserves that.
(28:52):
And there's inevitably this sort of comparison between stories that get told with repeat
actors in the same core ecosystem.
So that was one challenge and something that lawyers have to be careful of.
The other challenge, and this is just more procedurally, but you have to be really careful
(29:14):
about client confidentiality and privilege.
And so one of the things we rely on storytelling a lot in my current position to get funding,
it's one of the ways that we can convey to people who are supporting our work and allowing
us to keep the lights on about the importance of our work and about the ways that we are
(29:35):
able to make meaningful impacts in our clients' lives.
And so we want to tell people stories and yet we don't want to use them in a sense that
could be, you know, taken the wrong way or feel, you know, used by us for that purpose,
(29:55):
but we also have to maintain confidentiality.
So for instance, I pulled a couple of client stories for you today that I could share,
but we changed names, we changed, you know, certain facts to make sure that they were
untraceable in our small court system that we have here.
And we always get permission from our clients before we use their names or before we use
(30:19):
identifying information in a story.
But we do do that publicly all the time on our social medias, in grant applications.
It's really a fundamental piece of what we do.
Are you primarily funded by grants?
We are.
We have, the majority of our funding right now comes from the Legal Services Corporation,
which is a pass-through entity of federal funding for civil legal aid.
(30:44):
Every state has at least one LSC-funded entity and we are at that in New Hampshire.
The rest of our funding comes from a whole variety of sources, mostly grants and donations.
And it, you know, varies year to year, it's always seeking new sources and coming up with
(31:05):
innovative ways to bring additional services to the community.
And so that's how we primarily survive.
Well, and obviously you have to get really good at fundraising stories.
So yeah.
So looking at the other end of a case in court is the closing argument and closing arguments
(31:30):
have very important stories, hold very important stories because that's where the decision
is going to be made.
That's, you know, so in your opinion, what would make a closing statement memorable and
persuasive?
Yep.
There's a couple of key things I think just like in the beginning, you know, this is your
(31:55):
final opportunity to paint a picture before the jurors or the judge who's going to be
the decision maker.
You definitely want to keep it succinct so that people don't get lost in the story.
You know, it can be tempting to sort of want to put on a summary of all the evidence and
(32:15):
everything that happened, but really, I think the most effective stories and the most effective
closing statements are ones that are shorter and punchier and kind of really outlie exactly
what you've been able to prove throughout the duration of the case that supports your
case theory, whatever that may be.
(32:38):
You know, I think about closing statements in some of the cases that obviously you see
on TV, either fictionally or not fiction, the ones that are, you know, sort of the bigger
sensationalized ones that you see.
And I can just, I can remember certain cases, they're very memorable, you know, because
(33:00):
the lawyers really had, sometimes they used props, sometimes they did use that key piece
of evidence and brought it back to remind the jurors.
So those things are very persuasive.
And I would imagine, I would imagine, I mean, I'm sure that the jurors are very attentive,
(33:27):
but I'm guessing in cases where it might be a long case or where there's a lot of evidence,
it could probably, they might forget or it might be hard to remember it all.
Yes, that's true.
And I think that's why you want to, you know, without taking too much time to cover everything
that happened because they're able to ask, you know, follow up questions or if they have
(33:51):
points of clarification that they need, they can always do that later on.
But you do want to, as you said, make it memorable, you know, bring in something where it will
stay with them, it's not unheard of in the field of particularly criminal defense for
people to put glasses on their clients if they, you know, even if they don't normally
(34:15):
have it because that conveys a certain kind of individual that they want their client
to be seen as.
So there's lots of ways to captivate people and to convey to them, you know, the message
that you're trying to send.
Yeah.
(34:35):
So can you share a time when storytelling had made a significant difference in the outcome
of a case and is there a certain technique you think that can leave a lasting impression,
which I think we sort of talked about that, but I'm really interested in, you know, and
obviously confidentiality is, you know, key.
But yeah, I was just curious, you know, is there anything that sort of comes to mind?
(35:00):
Yeah, immediately a couple of cases come from my public defense days, one case in which
my client was this very large kind of imposing looking figure and the opponent was a very
small, you know, older man, and we basically did storytelling in this way of communicating
(35:33):
just how sort of ludicrous the opponent's story was that this my client who was, like
I said, he was a bouncer, you know, he had serious muscles and was very large and that
the story that the opposing party was telling just wouldn't have possibly made sense because
(35:57):
if it happened the way that they were relaying, this was a car dispute, you know, a bumper
situation or car dispute, alleged my client got out of the car and sort of roughed this
guy up.
Had my client actually done that, you know, there would be a lot worse facts that came
out in the case and so we basically use reverse storytelling to say, you know, here's why
(36:20):
this other story doesn't make sense and then here's what really likely happened.
And my client one was a great case, he had refused to plead guilty the whole way along,
even though the prosecutor was willing to offer him something where it would have just
gone away eventually, he was adamant that he was not guilty and he was not going to
(36:42):
plead to anything and I was really proud of him because at the end of the day, he knew
what, you know, what he wanted to do and we took his direction and he ended up proving
his case through sort of this reverse storytelling technique.
So that definitely worked well.
Yeah.
(37:03):
Yeah.
So if there are any aspiring attorneys out there who may want to follow this path into
practicing law this way, what advice would you give them?
I would tell them to get involved as soon as possible and as many ways they can.
(37:24):
I'm always counseling young folks to just give it a try, you know, and that it's a great
time when you're young, when you're in college, when you're thinking about law school, wherever
it is in your career, I've even had high school interns before in my practices, you know,
I think there's no wrong time to get involved and the more diverse experiences that you
(37:48):
have, the more you learn about what you like doing and what really calls to you.
We have a pair of legal here who started law school and is intending to go back to law
school and I think had a major of, you know, IP law or something and after two months of
working here in the family law unit said, yep, I'm changing my mind.
(38:12):
This is what I want to do for my career and we hear lots of those stories.
It's why I worked, you know, primarily with law students when I was running the program
at the Center for Social Justice because it was such a great way to get them in the door,
in the courts, you know, really one-on-one contact with clients and those experiences
(38:33):
can help somebody develop, you know, their career path and decide what they really want
to focus on.
That's wonderful.
And like you said, start early and get active right away.
Yep.
And don't be afraid to try different things, you know.
I have some regrets that I knew I wanted to be a public defender.
(38:55):
I was a little bit older, you know, I had worked for a couple of years before I went
to law school and I basically zeroed in on becoming a public defender, which is fine,
but now I counsel others to sort of not follow in those footsteps and really try it all out
because, you know, my, as a result, my career, I've tried out different, like I said, types
(39:16):
of law throughout my career and that's been fine.
They've all been litigation-side focused, but it's great if you can do that, you know,
for summer internships or even semester programs or even just volunteering.
There are so many nonprofits and legal aid organizations that would welcome somebody
(39:36):
who could come five hours a week after school, could still make a big difference.
What kinds of things would somebody who came to legal aid to volunteer, what kinds of things
might they be able to help with?
So depending on their level of experience and education, they would be able to do different
(39:58):
things.
The law students that I worked with were full on advocates for clients, you know, with supervision,
obviously, but we took them to the court.
They made arguments in front of the court magistrates and were able to counsel clients
directly with college-aged interns or even high school age.
(40:20):
They assist in the office, you know, they'll sit in on calls.
They might do some preliminary drafting of documents or assist.
We're having, we have a social work intern right now and she's assisting us with creating
a client resources guide, which is such a valuable tool, as I'm sure you know from your
(40:42):
career.
And something that is well suited for an intern type activity, you know, that we can continue
building on year over year and that can really provide people with the information that it
can be hard to figure out on their own.
Yeah, and having that, having that guide at your fingertips to be able to pass that on
(41:03):
is going to be huge.
So that's a huge help.
Yeah.
No, that's great.
That's great.
Okay.
Oh, so we talked about if folks needed legal help and if they wanted to reach you, what
was the best way?
I know that you said you had, people can apply even right online if you wanted to give your
(41:28):
website again, I'm guessing like your phone number and address and everything is there.
Yep.
So it's www.603 legal aid, that's L-E-G-A-L-A-I-D.org.
And that's our main website.
(41:49):
You can find all of our contact information there.
You can also apply directly online for our services 24 hours a day.
We also run, as I mentioned, the call center.
We field calls between 9 and 2 p.m. on Monday through Thursday and that call line is either
1-800-639-5290 or if you're in New Hampshire, 603-224-3333.
(42:20):
And you primarily, your entity serves all of New Hampshire, right?
That's right.
Okay.
So that's all of the civil legal cases, even if it's not one that we handle, we still
field that call on behalf of our partners across the state.
Great.
All right.
Well, that's all the time we have for today.
(42:43):
Thank you so much, Ariel, for being here and being our guest and sharing your story.
I just, I really enjoyed that whole Twilight Zone reference and, you know, just kind of
hearing how you got to where you are.
It was just really great to hear.
Thanks so much for having me.
(43:04):
And to our listeners, whether you hear us locally from the BTV studios in Bedford, Massachusetts
or across the globe on such channels as Spotify, Apple Podcasts or Amazon Prime, thanks for
listening.
We hope you enjoyed this episode and we'll see you next time.
Happy storytelling.
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