October 7, 2025 • 20 mins
In this feasible episode, Jen Goldman, Founder of My Virtual COO, shares operational strategies for scaling teams. If you struggle with team frustration or management overload, you won't want to miss it.
You will discover:
- Why hiring aligned talent prevents management headaches in stage 3
- How to implement lean processes for efficient scaling
- How to implement lean processes for efficient scaling
This episode is ideal for for Founders, Owners, and CEOs in stage 3 of The Founder's Evolution. Not sure which stage you're in? Find out for free in less than 10 minutes at https://www.scalearchitects.com/founders/quiz
Jen Goldman brings 30 years of experience as a Business Transformist for Small Businesses. She has transformed hundreds and trained thousands of service businesses on how to scale up teams, profits, and clients through operational, skill, and mindset improvements. Jen’s expertise includes strategic business planning, staff and provider recalibration, change acceleration, tech integration optimization, Lean® process creation, and implementation and high adoption of operational efficiencies. Her philosophy includes Visualization, Productive Collaboration, 4W and 4Ps Purpose Documentation, and IDEOS ™.
Want to learn more about Jen Goldman's work at My Virtual COO? Check out her website at https://myvirtualcoo.com/
Mentioned in this episode:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Scott Ritzheimer (00:00):
Hello, hello and welcome. Welcome once again
(00:03):
to the start, scale and succeedpodcast, the only podcast that
grows with you through all sevenstages of your journey. As a
founder, I'm your host, ScottRitzheimer, and this episode is
for all you reluctant managersout there, you know who you are.
I just actually had a call witha small business owner who was
ready to throw it all away. Shewas done. And like, with a
capital D, and she was sofrustrated with the team that
(00:26):
she'd built. There were about 20people at this point. They just
added several more, and that wasthe tipping point. And to be
honest, like they were superfrustrated with her. And so she
had just had enough, and wasasking for advice on how to
sell, because in a moment of,you know, just genuine honesty,
she shared that she was she hadgiven up hope that it could get
(00:47):
any better than it currentlywas. And if you felt that way,
if you feel that way, it can geta whole lot better. In fact,
most folks who are in thisposition are just a couple turns
of the dial, and we're going totalk about one of those
important ones in this episode,from just a completely different
experience, completely differentgrowth, and a whole lot of fun
(01:10):
and that with a capital F and sohere to help us have a little
more hope, and for all the rightreasons, is Jen Goldman, who
brings 30 years of experience asa business transformation. A
transformist for smallbusinesses, she has helped
hundreds and 1000s of servicebusinesses to learn how to scale
up teams, profit and clientsthrough operational skill and
(01:34):
mindset improvements. Jen'sexperience includes strategic
business planning staff andprovider recalibration, change,
acceleration, tech integrationand optimization, lean process
creation and implementation andhigh adoption of operational
efficiencies. Her philosophyincludes visualization, product
(01:55):
collaboration, the 4w and fourP's, purpose documentation and
IDEO. She's here with us today.Jen, welcome to the show. Very
excited to have you on. Aquestion for you coming out of
the gate here is, what would yousay to the founder like her,
who's waking up pretty muchevery morning wondering what's
wrong with these people? How cana COO help?
Jen Goldman (02:18):
Yeah. So first off, I hear you certainly, I'm a
business owner too, so I'msmiling with you, and I'm
feeling the pain. Secondly, tobe perfect, there's a middle
person missing off the team, andso just to be as transparent as
possible, I think what you'remissing is that COO or Chief of
Staff, and there is a slightdifference between the two, but
(02:40):
we're going to blend themtogether today.
Scott Ritzheimer (02:42):
Yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up, and I
actually do want to separatethose just momentarily, and then
we'll lump them together,because it was actually a
question that I had, and Ididn't know if we'd be able to
get into it. But what do youmean by that? Because most folks
probably haven't had either. Soin you as short as you can, I
know that's a lofty ambition,but what's the Chief of Staff?
(03:03):
How's that different than a COO?
Jen Goldman (03:05):
Yeah, so a chief of staff is going to come in very
people oriented, bringing theteam together, aligning and kind
of sit between you, the CEO, bizdev, and the team's day to day
operations. Okay, so, butthey're going to lead with
people. A COO is going to leadwith operational efficiencies.
So they're going to be a littlemore tech geeky. They're going
(03:25):
to be a little bit more intoprocesses that kind of guide the
people they care about, thepeople, don't get me wrong, but
their their first and highestcalling is more around systems
than it is around people.
Scott Ritzheimer (03:36):
Right, how do you know which one you need?
Jen Goldman (03:39):
That's a great question. I think if you think
the culture is lacking, like,let's say you have turnover or
low retention, or everybodyseems a little basically fried
out, I would say you need aChief of Staff first, or
somebody that will put thatfirst and then kind of come in
the unicorn. This is whateverybody wants. I want it,
right? You want the Chief ofStaff and the COO in one person,
(04:02):
yeah? So you can try for that ifyou want. But I would say again,
if culture is dragging, mood isdragging, everybody's just
struggling, bring in the Chiefof Staff first, then bring in
like a COO mentality, orhopefully groom up from somebody
on the team.
Scott Ritzheimer (04:16):
Yeah, so let's talk a little bit about what
this COO role does. You talkedabout operational efficiency.
How does that role, that secondin command in a COO mindset,
help a founder to scale? How'sit different from what the
founder is doing themselves?
Jen Goldman (04:33):
Well, first of all, they're the day to day, so the
founder gets to be especially ifyou're a biz dev founder, which
you understand you know morethan anyone, right? If you're a
biz dev founder, and you getyour energy from relationship
building outside of the office,outside of the company, with new
leads or referral sources, rightthen that COO is the one that
does in the office. They're theone that runs the team meetings.
(04:55):
They're the one that looks forways to cut down on the workload
so your team can stay lean andnot. Mean, but happy. And so
basically, as a COO, you'refreed, like once they're
onboarded and ingrained, you'refree to go out and do your thing
and bring out your vibe and selland let the COO deal with the
(05:15):
day to day.
Scott Ritzheimer (05:15):
Yeah, one of the things that I've found, and
I'd probably venture to say it'sthe most important thing you
might push back on that. I'd beinterested in your thoughts. But
it seems to me that the biggestcontributor to success is trust
in the relationship between COOand CEO. You could have an
(05:36):
unreal COO, it's just a Jedi atall the process. But if you
don't trust them, you're goingto go in and undermine every
last one of them. So I'd love toknow from you, what do you see
as the role of trust, and how doyou start to build that from
even before day one in aninterview process?
Jen Goldman (05:52):
Yeah, I'm a very big proponent of documentation.
So if you met any one of myquote, business friends, or even
our clients, they wouldunderstand trust comes not only
with the verbal but the written.So for example, you asked about
even before hiring, how do theycross communicate
(06:15):
asynchronously? Are they clear?Are they understandable? Do they
respond in a timely manner? Allthat matters in an interview
process, I don't know. I look atit, I care about it, because
that's how they're going to bewhen they're working with you,
hopefully, right? And and ifthey're poor in the interview
process, let me tell you,they're not going to fit, right?
We know that automatically,because you get better, not get
(06:36):
better, that's right. So thingslike that when they're on
boarded trust weekly meetings.Do they come prepared? Is there
a set agenda? Are theydocumenting what they're doing?
And I think also too, let meflip this the person that's
documenting that gives youdopamine hits, it makes you feel
jazzed up, and it gives you alist of saying, Hey, this is
what I just accomplished for thebusiness. So there's a win on
(06:59):
both sides. It's not supposed tobe a drag, right? That builds up
a ton of trust, another thing.And actually, somebody did this
to me. My wing man in the past,actually would write an end of
the week summary and say, Theseare the top five things I
accomplish. Obviously, she wasgetting the dopamine hit writing
it, but I automatically wentinto the weekend and a mindset
(07:20):
of this person is on it, andthey care, and they're doing the
work.
Scott Ritzheimer (07:24):
That's so powerful, because it's the
weekends where we go crazy.Yeah, it's like, Monday morning.
I have some interesting calls,you know, and I get it, you
know, because it's you, you havea little time, you get into a
project, you kind of startpoking around and stuff, and
then, boom, your whole weekend'sgone because you just went down
19 rabbit trolls, of of whatfeels like awful. And so to be
(07:47):
able to just set that up andsay, Hey, we're good, right?
Going into the weekend, we'regood, it'll all be here. Monday
will be okay, is, I mean, from alife impact standpoint, it's
massive for founders.
Jen Goldman (07:59):
No, I mean, that's we don't get our energy in those
moments, whether it's weekendsor nights. We're not good
leaders, whether they'rewhatever direction we're heading
in. And that's where you get theowners that say, I'm out, like
I'm just done, like I'm burnt.And the reason they're they're
burning themselves out becausethey don't have, to be frank,
the systems in place, and theydon't, and it's okay because you
(08:21):
don't know, like, this is stuffthat I took for granted, and
then I realized most peopledon't know this, but that also
burns out the team. So thenyou're wondering, why, why are
these people on my team, and whyare they not, like, kicking it
up, and you haven't given them amethod or a way to communicate
up the ladder or to take creditand advocate. Yeah, yeah. So
(08:43):
systems matter in that in thatinstance.
Scott Ritzheimer (08:46):
And I love the way that you describe systems,
because most founders wouldn'tdescribe them that way. They
describe it as like, prison. Youknow, go back and listen to it
again. It's just fantastic.There's a lot in there. I want
to kind of stay on this threadwith CEOs, though. So let's say
someone's like, Yes, that's whatwe need. We need someone to
bring some more structure tothis thing. I'd love to have
(09:07):
someone looking inside mybusiness so I can look out on
the horizon and create somegrowth. What do they need to
look for in a great COO, whatare some of the qualities that
you've seen make those folkssuccessful?
Jen Goldman (09:20):
I'm going to give the answer, but I know the
follow up question would be,well, Jen, what question would
you ask in an interview? So letme give the answer first. It's
called, I call it constellationthinking. So we believe in this
thing called the four Ps. And Imade that up for myself, just to
be fair. And now I teach it thatwhen we think of anything in a
(09:41):
business, we think about, how isit going to affect the people,
the productivity, the profitsand the presence, internally and
externally. Okay, so publicpresence and internal presence.
So that's constellation thinkingautomatically that everything
you do has an impact and has atrickle effect. You need to see.
See that in that person. So youneed to give them an instance or
(10:04):
a story and say, What did youtake away from that story? And
they see if they connect thedots between all the areas of
the business and the impact ofwhat was going on, yeah, you
need that. You need to know theycan articulate it, right? I'm
trying to think what else youcan ask them, but I do think
it's going think it'sconstellation. Thinking you're
looking for that. You're lookingfor an eagerness to learn. They
(10:27):
really have to be learningjunkies. So and how they learn,
that's a big one. If they learnverbally, that's going to slow
you down, because the fact is,you don't have the time you're
busy on your calls or talking toclients, or for whatever you're
doing, CEO out there, leading,presenting, it doesn't whatever
your business is. You have tomake sure they can learn without
(10:49):
the verbal Yeah. So it might beon their own, through video, on
their own, through written word,on their own, through some other
way. Are they resourceful? Ithink that's another, another
big one.
Scott Ritzheimer (11:00):
This idea of constellation thinking is is
really profound, because as youlook back at like, who are the
hires that precede this? Youdon't really hire them for that,
right? You might hire them forone, maybe two of these, but
it's like you're you the firsthandful of folks you hire for
them to get stuff done and andto some extent, the less they're
(11:21):
worried about all the connectionpoints, the more efficient or
effective they'll be in theirparticular role. But then that
leaves you like doing thejuggling number, you know, and
trying to hang it all together.And so where I've seen folks
struggle here is that they don'tapply that switch, right? They
try and bring in somebody elseto solve what they think is a
single problem. I need someoneto connect me in the team, or
(11:44):
something like that, and it'smissing that constellation
thinking. That's very, veryclever way of putting it, but
very, very important. So there'sanother thread to this that I'm
very interested in hearing whatyou have to say, and that is,
how do you figure out the thefull time in person, virtual How
(12:04):
do you know what's right for youin terms of how much coo you
need and in what format?
Jen Goldman (12:10):
Yeah, that's a great question. I would say most
of the time. I'll get let megive a real example. So we were
talking to a business that wassent to us through a connection
at strategic coach. And theywere probably, I'm thinking,
looking down to think aboutmaybe 1819, people on the team,
two owners, right? One was likethe head of sales. One was
(12:32):
operations, and they were maxedout the story like you started
with, just by showing them allthe different pieces. And we
show visuals, by the way, we'rehuge individuals around people
and systems and everything. Weliterally have a map for each
item the minute. We actuallyshowed them that, in probably
under five minutes, they werelike, Whoa. I didn't realize I
(12:52):
was thinking that way. No wondermy brain hurts trying to figure
this all out and make it betterfor the next scale up, we need a
full timer. They instantly knewthat, because when they saw it,
they're like, I want that. So Ithink you don't know. Well, you
don't know Right? Like, you justknow you're burning out, right?
Or you just you're tired ofeverything. That's one thing. If
(13:15):
you think that you want to touchon your people and your systems
and your processes, and, God,there's so much to go your
finances, like I want to projectmy profitability through all
this. Then I think you need afull timer. Then the question
is, do you do virtual or inhouse? Well, first of all,
depends on your company model.I'm going to tell you virtual
works with a quarterly visit inhouse, because, frankly, a lot
(13:37):
can get done, and you can getbetter talent, maybe not in your
backyard. And also budgetmatters, right? Like, maybe
you're in I'm in the Northeast.Let me tell you what people like
this make, right? They make alot. Maybe you can't afford
that. So I would say to do thevirtual and have them visit you
quarterly type of thing. Ifthey're good communicators this
(13:58):
way, like we're evencommunicating and in written
it's not a problem. Yeah, it'syour problem,
Scott Ritzheimer (14:05):
And it's it's so much better than just sitting
and waiting you, because reallyit's like, even if you don't
think that virtual is ideal withthe end, with the tools, and not
just like zoom, but like theorganizational tools that are
available to us. Now, it'sremarkable what you can do
virtually. But on top of that,even if it were an intermediary
(14:26):
step toward a full time inperson, whatever that might look
like, it's going to rapidlyaccelerate that process for you.
Would you agree?
Jen Goldman (14:36):
Absolutely, I say to businesses, if you want to
continue to grow healthy. Youneed this role. You need it.
Otherwise you're going to burnout, you're going to miss and
make costly missteps, or you'regoing to stagnate the growth. I
can't tell you. This will painyou more than you know how many
businesses come and I'm startingto see them flat line. It's not
(14:57):
that maybe the revenues aredown, but they're just not. To
uptick, and that's a bad you'realready on the you're already in
a bad place. And so I just don'tthink, I think businesses I care
to make an impact and help more,whatever that is, whether it's
other businesses, individuals, Idon't really care. But if you
want that, this is the role youneed. So the difference between
(15:17):
hiring full time or doing afractional I'd say, Listen, that
comes down to how you feel, whatyour budget is, and if you want
to dip your toe in, but dip yourtoe and I'm not, you know, and
people say, Oh, I'm selfserving, because this is what I
do. I really, honestly, I reallydon't I love for people to reach
out to us. I'd love for peopleto reach out to anybody that's a
(15:39):
COO and do this, because whenyou do, you hear the great
stories, and you then you becomethe great story of success.
Scott Ritzheimer (15:47):
What, Yeah, what a way. So I want to end on
that note, but I've got one morequestion for you, and that is,
what is the biggest secret thatyou wish wasn't a secret at all?
What's that one thing you wisheverybody watching or listening
today knew?
Jen Goldman (16:02):
The one that came to mind is something you would
say, and not me, but I'll say itbecause I live in it. No, no,
no. Saying no is crucial, evenwhen you're a startup and you
need that extra client, or youlike that person you wanna add
them to the team? You gotta Ithink we all need to trust our
(16:24):
gut a little bit more and sayno, because I think what happens
is we dilute the business andour own personal health. So if I
would leave it on that secret nois important right at the
beginning.
Scott Ritzheimer (16:36):
Oh, it's so important. It's so scary,
especially early on. It'sterrifying, but it's terrifying
for all of us. And there's justa you're saying no, whether you
want to or not. It's just aquestion of whether you're doing
it or it's happening to you. Sotake the initiative and do it.
Jen, we could go on for a reallylong time and help a whole lot
of people doing it, I'm sure,but they can get a lot of help
(16:58):
by reaching out to you directly.How can folks find more out
about the work that you do andconnect with you?
Jen Goldman (17:03):
Yeah, if you just want to go to My Virtual COO,
we're there. We've got somefreebies. Feel free to jump on
and then you can reach out to usif you want.
Scott Ritzheimer (17:11):
Fantastic, myvirtualcoo.com We'll get it in
the show notes for you so youdon't have to go find it. Jen,
thanks for being on today. Whata fun conversation. It's a
privilege and honor having youhere for those of you who are
watching and listening, you knowyour time and attention mean the
world to us. I hope you got asmuch out of this conversation as
I know I did, and I cannot waitto see you next time. Take care.
Hello, hello and welcome. Welcome once again
(00:03):
to the start, scale and succeedpodcast, the only podcast that
grows with you through all sevenstages of your journey. As a
founder, I'm your host, ScottRitzheimer, and this episode is
for all you reluctant managersout there, you know who you are.
I just actually had a call witha small business owner who was
ready to throw it all away. Shewas done. And like, with a
capital D, and she was sofrustrated with the team that
(00:26):
she'd built. There were about 20people at this point. They just
added several more, and that wasthe tipping point. And to be
honest, like they were superfrustrated with her. And so she
had just had enough, and wasasking for advice on how to
sell, because in a moment of,you know, just genuine honesty,
she shared that she was she hadgiven up hope that it could get
(00:47):
any better than it currentlywas. And if you felt that way,
if you feel that way, it can geta whole lot better. In fact,
most folks who are in thisposition are just a couple turns
of the dial, and we're going totalk about one of those
important ones in this episode,from just a completely different
experience, completely differentgrowth, and a whole lot of fun
(01:10):
and that with a capital F and sohere to help us have a little
more hope, and for all the rightreasons, is Jen Goldman, who
brings 30 years of experience asa business transformation. A
transformist for smallbusinesses, she has helped
hundreds and 1000s of servicebusinesses to learn how to scale
up teams, profit and clientsthrough operational skill and
(01:34):
mindset improvements. Jen'sexperience includes strategic
business planning staff andprovider recalibration, change,
acceleration, tech integrationand optimization, lean process
creation and implementation andhigh adoption of operational
efficiencies. Her philosophyincludes visualization, product
(01:55):
collaboration, the 4w and fourP's, purpose documentation and
IDEO. She's here with us today.Jen, welcome to the show. Very
excited to have you on. Aquestion for you coming out of
the gate here is, what would yousay to the founder like her,
who's waking up pretty muchevery morning wondering what's
wrong with these people? How cana COO help?
Jen Goldman (02:18):
Yeah. So first off, I hear you certainly, I'm a
business owner too, so I'msmiling with you, and I'm
feeling the pain. Secondly, tobe perfect, there's a middle
person missing off the team, andso just to be as transparent as
possible, I think what you'remissing is that COO or Chief of
Staff, and there is a slightdifference between the two, but
(02:40):
we're going to blend themtogether today.
Scott Ritzheimer (02:42):
Yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up, and I
actually do want to separatethose just momentarily, and then
we'll lump them together,because it was actually a
question that I had, and Ididn't know if we'd be able to
get into it. But what do youmean by that? Because most folks
probably haven't had either. Soin you as short as you can, I
know that's a lofty ambition,but what's the Chief of Staff?
(03:03):
How's that different than a COO?
Jen Goldman (03:05):
Yeah, so a chief of staff is going to come in very
people oriented, bringing theteam together, aligning and kind
of sit between you, the CEO, bizdev, and the team's day to day
operations. Okay, so, butthey're going to lead with
people. A COO is going to leadwith operational efficiencies.
So they're going to be a littlemore tech geeky. They're going
(03:25):
to be a little bit more intoprocesses that kind of guide the
people they care about, thepeople, don't get me wrong, but
their their first and highestcalling is more around systems
than it is around people.
Scott Ritzheimer (03:36):
Right, how do you know which one you need?
Jen Goldman (03:39):
That's a great question. I think if you think
the culture is lacking, like,let's say you have turnover or
low retention, or everybodyseems a little basically fried
out, I would say you need aChief of Staff first, or
somebody that will put thatfirst and then kind of come in
the unicorn. This is whateverybody wants. I want it,
right? You want the Chief ofStaff and the COO in one person,
(04:02):
yeah? So you can try for that ifyou want. But I would say again,
if culture is dragging, mood isdragging, everybody's just
struggling, bring in the Chiefof Staff first, then bring in
like a COO mentality, orhopefully groom up from somebody
on the team.
Scott Ritzheimer (04:16):
Yeah, so let's talk a little bit about what
this COO role does. You talkedabout operational efficiency.
How does that role, that secondin command in a COO mindset,
help a founder to scale? How'sit different from what the
founder is doing themselves?
Jen Goldman (04:33):
Well, first of all, they're the day to day, so the
founder gets to be especially ifyou're a biz dev founder, which
you understand you know morethan anyone, right? If you're a
biz dev founder, and you getyour energy from relationship
building outside of the office,outside of the company, with new
leads or referral sources, rightthen that COO is the one that
does in the office. They're theone that runs the team meetings.
(04:55):
They're the one that looks forways to cut down on the workload
so your team can stay lean andnot. Mean, but happy. And so
basically, as a COO, you'refreed, like once they're
onboarded and ingrained, you'refree to go out and do your thing
and bring out your vibe and selland let the COO deal with the
(05:15):
day to day.
Scott Ritzheimer (05:15):
Yeah, one of the things that I've found, and
I'd probably venture to say it'sthe most important thing you
might push back on that. I'd beinterested in your thoughts. But
it seems to me that the biggestcontributor to success is trust
in the relationship between COOand CEO. You could have an
(05:36):
unreal COO, it's just a Jedi atall the process. But if you
don't trust them, you're goingto go in and undermine every
last one of them. So I'd love toknow from you, what do you see
as the role of trust, and how doyou start to build that from
even before day one in aninterview process?
Jen Goldman (05:52):
Yeah, I'm a very big proponent of documentation.
So if you met any one of myquote, business friends, or even
our clients, they wouldunderstand trust comes not only
with the verbal but the written.So for example, you asked about
even before hiring, how do theycross communicate
(06:15):
asynchronously? Are they clear?Are they understandable? Do they
respond in a timely manner? Allthat matters in an interview
process, I don't know. I look atit, I care about it, because
that's how they're going to bewhen they're working with you,
hopefully, right? And and ifthey're poor in the interview
process, let me tell you,they're not going to fit, right?
We know that automatically,because you get better, not get
(06:36):
better, that's right. So thingslike that when they're on
boarded trust weekly meetings.Do they come prepared? Is there
a set agenda? Are theydocumenting what they're doing?
And I think also too, let meflip this the person that's
documenting that gives youdopamine hits, it makes you feel
jazzed up, and it gives you alist of saying, Hey, this is
what I just accomplished for thebusiness. So there's a win on
(06:59):
both sides. It's not supposed tobe a drag, right? That builds up
a ton of trust, another thing.And actually, somebody did this
to me. My wing man in the past,actually would write an end of
the week summary and say, Theseare the top five things I
accomplish. Obviously, she wasgetting the dopamine hit writing
it, but I automatically wentinto the weekend and a mindset
(07:20):
of this person is on it, andthey care, and they're doing the
work.
Scott Ritzheimer (07:24):
That's so powerful, because it's the
weekends where we go crazy.Yeah, it's like, Monday morning.
I have some interesting calls,you know, and I get it, you
know, because it's you, you havea little time, you get into a
project, you kind of startpoking around and stuff, and
then, boom, your whole weekend'sgone because you just went down
19 rabbit trolls, of of whatfeels like awful. And so to be
(07:47):
able to just set that up andsay, Hey, we're good, right?
Going into the weekend, we'regood, it'll all be here. Monday
will be okay, is, I mean, from alife impact standpoint, it's
massive for founders.
Jen Goldman (07:59):
No, I mean, that's we don't get our energy in those
moments, whether it's weekendsor nights. We're not good
leaders, whether they'rewhatever direction we're heading
in. And that's where you get theowners that say, I'm out, like
I'm just done, like I'm burnt.And the reason they're they're
burning themselves out becausethey don't have, to be frank,
the systems in place, and theydon't, and it's okay because you
(08:21):
don't know, like, this is stuffthat I took for granted, and
then I realized most peopledon't know this, but that also
burns out the team. So thenyou're wondering, why, why are
these people on my team, and whyare they not, like, kicking it
up, and you haven't given them amethod or a way to communicate
up the ladder or to take creditand advocate. Yeah, yeah. So
(08:43):
systems matter in that in thatinstance.
Scott Ritzheimer (08:46):
And I love the way that you describe systems,
because most founders wouldn'tdescribe them that way. They
describe it as like, prison. Youknow, go back and listen to it
again. It's just fantastic.There's a lot in there. I want
to kind of stay on this threadwith CEOs, though. So let's say
someone's like, Yes, that's whatwe need. We need someone to
bring some more structure tothis thing. I'd love to have
(09:07):
someone looking inside mybusiness so I can look out on
the horizon and create somegrowth. What do they need to
look for in a great COO, whatare some of the qualities that
you've seen make those folkssuccessful?
Jen Goldman (09:20):
I'm going to give the answer, but I know the
follow up question would be,well, Jen, what question would
you ask in an interview? So letme give the answer first. It's
called, I call it constellationthinking. So we believe in this
thing called the four Ps. And Imade that up for myself, just to
be fair. And now I teach it thatwhen we think of anything in a
(09:41):
business, we think about, how isit going to affect the people,
the productivity, the profitsand the presence, internally and
externally. Okay, so publicpresence and internal presence.
So that's constellation thinkingautomatically that everything
you do has an impact and has atrickle effect. You need to see.
See that in that person. So youneed to give them an instance or
(10:04):
a story and say, What did youtake away from that story? And
they see if they connect thedots between all the areas of
the business and the impact ofwhat was going on, yeah, you
need that. You need to know theycan articulate it, right? I'm
trying to think what else youcan ask them, but I do think
it's going think it'sconstellation. Thinking you're
looking for that. You're lookingfor an eagerness to learn. They
(10:27):
really have to be learningjunkies. So and how they learn,
that's a big one. If they learnverbally, that's going to slow
you down, because the fact is,you don't have the time you're
busy on your calls or talking toclients, or for whatever you're
doing, CEO out there, leading,presenting, it doesn't whatever
your business is. You have tomake sure they can learn without
(10:49):
the verbal Yeah. So it might beon their own, through video, on
their own, through written word,on their own, through some other
way. Are they resourceful? Ithink that's another, another
big one.
Scott Ritzheimer (11:00):
This idea of constellation thinking is is
really profound, because as youlook back at like, who are the
hires that precede this? Youdon't really hire them for that,
right? You might hire them forone, maybe two of these, but
it's like you're you the firsthandful of folks you hire for
them to get stuff done and andto some extent, the less they're
(11:21):
worried about all the connectionpoints, the more efficient or
effective they'll be in theirparticular role. But then that
leaves you like doing thejuggling number, you know, and
trying to hang it all together.And so where I've seen folks
struggle here is that they don'tapply that switch, right? They
try and bring in somebody elseto solve what they think is a
single problem. I need someoneto connect me in the team, or
(11:44):
something like that, and it'smissing that constellation
thinking. That's very, veryclever way of putting it, but
very, very important. So there'sanother thread to this that I'm
very interested in hearing whatyou have to say, and that is,
how do you figure out the thefull time in person, virtual How
(12:04):
do you know what's right for youin terms of how much coo you
need and in what format?
Jen Goldman (12:10):
Yeah, that's a great question. I would say most
of the time. I'll get let megive a real example. So we were
talking to a business that wassent to us through a connection
at strategic coach. And theywere probably, I'm thinking,
looking down to think aboutmaybe 1819, people on the team,
two owners, right? One was likethe head of sales. One was
(12:32):
operations, and they were maxedout the story like you started
with, just by showing them allthe different pieces. And we
show visuals, by the way, we'rehuge individuals around people
and systems and everything. Weliterally have a map for each
item the minute. We actuallyshowed them that, in probably
under five minutes, they werelike, Whoa. I didn't realize I
(12:52):
was thinking that way. No wondermy brain hurts trying to figure
this all out and make it betterfor the next scale up, we need a
full timer. They instantly knewthat, because when they saw it,
they're like, I want that. So Ithink you don't know. Well, you
don't know Right? Like, you justknow you're burning out, right?
Or you just you're tired ofeverything. That's one thing. If
(13:15):
you think that you want to touchon your people and your systems
and your processes, and, God,there's so much to go your
finances, like I want to projectmy profitability through all
this. Then I think you need afull timer. Then the question
is, do you do virtual or inhouse? Well, first of all,
depends on your company model.I'm going to tell you virtual
works with a quarterly visit inhouse, because, frankly, a lot
(13:37):
can get done, and you can getbetter talent, maybe not in your
backyard. And also budgetmatters, right? Like, maybe
you're in I'm in the Northeast.Let me tell you what people like
this make, right? They make alot. Maybe you can't afford
that. So I would say to do thevirtual and have them visit you
quarterly type of thing. Ifthey're good communicators this
(13:58):
way, like we're evencommunicating and in written
it's not a problem. Yeah, it'syour problem,
Scott Ritzheimer (14:05):
And it's it's so much better than just sitting
and waiting you, because reallyit's like, even if you don't
think that virtual is ideal withthe end, with the tools, and not
just like zoom, but like theorganizational tools that are
available to us. Now, it'sremarkable what you can do
virtually. But on top of that,even if it were an intermediary
(14:26):
step toward a full time inperson, whatever that might look
like, it's going to rapidlyaccelerate that process for you.
Would you agree?
Jen Goldman (14:36):
Absolutely, I say to businesses, if you want to
continue to grow healthy. Youneed this role. You need it.
Otherwise you're going to burnout, you're going to miss and
make costly missteps, or you'regoing to stagnate the growth. I
can't tell you. This will painyou more than you know how many
businesses come and I'm startingto see them flat line. It's not
(14:57):
that maybe the revenues aredown, but they're just not. To
uptick, and that's a bad you'realready on the you're already in
a bad place. And so I just don'tthink, I think businesses I care
to make an impact and help more,whatever that is, whether it's
other businesses, individuals, Idon't really care. But if you
want that, this is the role youneed. So the difference between
(15:17):
hiring full time or doing afractional I'd say, Listen, that
comes down to how you feel, whatyour budget is, and if you want
to dip your toe in, but dip yourtoe and I'm not, you know, and
people say, Oh, I'm selfserving, because this is what I
do. I really, honestly, I reallydon't I love for people to reach
out to us. I'd love for peopleto reach out to anybody that's a
(15:39):
COO and do this, because whenyou do, you hear the great
stories, and you then you becomethe great story of success.
Scott Ritzheimer (15:47):
What, Yeah, what a way. So I want to end on
that note, but I've got one morequestion for you, and that is,
what is the biggest secret thatyou wish wasn't a secret at all?
What's that one thing you wisheverybody watching or listening
today knew?
Jen Goldman (16:02):
The one that came to mind is something you would
say, and not me, but I'll say itbecause I live in it. No, no,
no. Saying no is crucial, evenwhen you're a startup and you
need that extra client, or youlike that person you wanna add
them to the team? You gotta Ithink we all need to trust our
(16:24):
gut a little bit more and sayno, because I think what happens
is we dilute the business andour own personal health. So if I
would leave it on that secret nois important right at the
beginning.
Scott Ritzheimer (16:36):
Oh, it's so important. It's so scary,
especially early on. It'sterrifying, but it's terrifying
for all of us. And there's justa you're saying no, whether you
want to or not. It's just aquestion of whether you're doing
it or it's happening to you. Sotake the initiative and do it.
Jen, we could go on for a reallylong time and help a whole lot
of people doing it, I'm sure,but they can get a lot of help
(16:58):
by reaching out to you directly.How can folks find more out
about the work that you do andconnect with you?
Jen Goldman (17:03):
Yeah, if you just want to go to My Virtual COO,
we're there. We've got somefreebies. Feel free to jump on
and then you can reach out to usif you want.
Scott Ritzheimer (17:11):
Fantastic, myvirtualcoo.com We'll get it in
the show notes for you so youdon't have to go find it. Jen,
thanks for being on today. Whata fun conversation. It's a
privilege and honor having youhere for those of you who are
watching and listening, you knowyour time and attention mean the
world to us. I hope you got asmuch out of this conversation as
I know I did, and I cannot waitto see you next time. Take care.
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