November 18, 2025 • 26 mins
Remember when calculators were going to "ruin" math education? Now it's ChatGPT's turn.
When Cal State invested millions to give 460,000 students access to ChatGPT Enterprise, it sparked the exact same debate we've had about every major educational technology for decades.
In this episode of Startup Different, Chris and David break down Cal State's controversial AI investment and ask the hard questions: Is this a game-changer for higher education, or an expensive marketing move? Should we embrace AI tools in the classroom, or are we shortcutting the critical thinking skills students desperately need?
Drawing parallels between today's AI anxiety and yesterday's calculator panic, the brothers explore why resistance to educational technology feels so familiar—and why it might be misplaced. They debate whether AI will raise the bar for student work or simply give everyone access to sophisticated cheating tools, discuss the financial realities behind the Cal State deal, and tackle what faculty need to do differently when their students have ChatGPT in their pocket.
Whether you're an educator grappling with AI policies, a parent wondering what this means for your kids, or an entrepreneur watching a massive market shift unfold, this conversation challenges you to think differently about AI's inevitable role in education.
The real question isn't whether AI belongs in the classroom—it's how we adapt our teaching to make sure students still learn to think.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
They they like sole source this,which is pretty jokes like so as
a as a person who used to sell in the universities colleges,
that drives me absolutely batshit crazy that they could do
a 16 point whatever $1,000,000 annually recurring purchase that
didn't go to an RFP process. Like there are tons of AI
companies in California. This is like the Mecca of AI.
(00:21):
Like, that's just stinks of the president said.
We need to do something on this.Let's get it rolling.
Big ideas, money, hustle, smart dream.
So why bring that grinded? Through a joy ride.
(00:43):
Alright so this is episode 25. My working title for it is From
Calculators to ChatGPT. Y AI in the classroom isn't so
different. Can I offer that you got this
title from ChatGPT? Possibly it was 1.
Of many suggestions that remember I said working title
(01:04):
too. Yeah, well, it's pretty, pretty
bad. So let's let's move on from now.
On Great AI gave me title mine. Was have you?
Yeah, your titles. Mine was half a million
students. One chat bot open AI meets Cal
State. Sounds like a really shitty
movie. Don't be swell.
Yeah, yeah. So I was gonna have a great.
(01:26):
Time, yeah. Alright, boom.
Alright, Chris, tell me about what they're doing at Cal State
and White Disturbs. You OK, I.
Don't know if it disturbs, I don't.
Know if it does disturb, but we're gonna find out.
We'll see how I feel at the end of this episode.
So Cal State is paying Open AI 16.9 million for ChatGPT.
Peanuts. Edu for 460,000 plus students
(01:49):
and staff. Kind of cool.
Alright, pretty good deal that Ilike it.
Good for them. Yeah, it's the world's OHP
weight. You won't like it to SEC.
OK, so this is the world's largest rollout of ChatGPT, so
kind of cool. Kind of a weird comment.
I mean like. Million biggest no, no, but it's
like the biggest deal, you know?Like it's their biggest
institutional sale, there need to be sale.
Good for them. Yeah.
(02:10):
Yeah. I, I wonder anyway.
So they didn't. What's kind of answer your
question? They didn't go to.
That's the whole. Thing yeah, I know, I know.
OK, so I'm. Actually with the faculty on
that, but anyways. Why?
This is where we're going. So California community colleges
got a similar AI chat services from Google for 2.1 million
users for. Free.
(02:31):
So again, back to the genius sales guy here.
Oh yeah, you're going to get a way better version than that.
Don't even worry about. It Yeah, yeah, that was.
We heard they got it for free. Why aren't we getting it for
free? Well, I mean, you know, the
early bird gets the worm. So California community colleges
got Googles AI versus yeah. So.
(02:53):
Then they made. It there even a differentiation
like seriously like great sales pitch, but anyway.
Yeah, exactly. You get that guy?
On the phone or gal on the phoneOr do that deal.
Like seriously, good for them. Not the free one, the paid 1.
So if you do the math on it works at like $37 per user for
Cal State and 0 for California community.
College. So that second math was pretty
(03:14):
tough. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Public math. Public Math Keep.
Me out of trouble, Dave anyway, so the question is like did they
get a good deal on this? And then the second question is
like, alright, we're going down the road of this is like AI is
in education and it's like a thing.
And I feel like we've been here before with technology and
(03:35):
education. OK.
So I kind of wanted to say like,what what is the parallels to
previous technologies being implemented?
Kind of a couple of them. The first one I think of is the
calculator, which, you know, in the 1970s and 80s, there was
like the calculator panic, right?
(03:55):
Because calculators just became affordable.
Like people could go in and likeI think a big chunk of math
class was doing like. That is also like the lamest,
most boring. I know, panic long.
Time looking? What about the graphing
calculator? Panic.
X&Y. Yeah.
(04:16):
So, yeah, obviously it seems silly now looking back at it,
which is interesting because maybe we will look back on the
AI panic or introduction of AI into education as being like,
oh, wow, that was way overblown.But for there it was.
It was a big deal. So back then, you know, teachers
were worried students would losebasic math skills.
(04:37):
Old man, there's public math. Maybe we have.
Maybe it's already happening. Yeah, You know, concerns that
students wouldn't understand math concepts, students would
become dependent on the technology.
And, you know, they had lots of debates about whether they
should be banned, things like that, which is very similar to
what's happening with AI as well.
So we're kind of in that scenario.
(04:58):
But like what actually happened was calculators became standard.
Yeah. You know, there were just like
normal students still learn fundamental math concepts.
Instead of spending time on tedious calculations, students
could focus on like the actual problem solving applications and
stuff like. That well, like also in the real
world, like you would have thesetools it's like when you go to
school and you can't use Excel right and then the first thing
(05:19):
you do is like, hey, great job getting all that education being
at school for like 23 odd years,22 odd years here's Microsoft
Excel, forget everything you know so.
Like exactly. So math education, you know,
became about understanding over like, rote memorization and, you
know, you know, even later graph, those graphing
(05:40):
calculators, the X and the Y, Yeah, became required for
advanced math courses. Like like part of the math
course was actually knowing how to use that tack.
Force multiplier, Yeah, right. Makes you better.
Yeah, So couple of other examples, you know, spell check,
I remember force that was highly, Yep, controversial as
well. Actually.
Do you remember we had that, that you know, that that
(06:02):
typewriter thing when we were kids, like kind of before
desktop computers or PC's were? Like are older than me.
Yeah, you don't remember this, do you?
You're 10 years. Old dad sold these things.
Electric typewriter Electric. Typewriters.
They were actually called word processors.
Some of them had little light calculator displays and could do
spell check cool. And other ones started coming
(06:22):
out where they actually had likea screen, like one of those big
CRT screens you think? Like a keyboard, but not like
directly associated with. The computer was basically a
computer, but it was like very specific purpose and like the
printer was built right into. It's kinda cool actually.
You would type it all out, it would show on the screen, then
you would hit enter, and then itwould like do all the yeah, the
keystrokes and put it on the paper.
So yeah, anyways. Really somebody listening, this
(06:45):
is like super vibing right now. Yeah.
So that was that was one like the spell check.
Then obviously Internet Google. I know that was a big.
Thing then, yeah. We were going like when I was
doing going through university and then even like Wikipedia I
was. Going to say yeah, Wikipedia was
the big one probably for me, butparticularly my university years
was like, he's never source. Wikipedia example.
(07:05):
So the way these things kind of go is there's initially the
panic resistance, then experimental adoption, OK, then
it's like integration and then normalization and then sort of
like an evolution. So, so where, where are we in
that right now? We're kind of in the panic
resistance and kind of getting into the experimental adoption
(07:28):
here with this Cal. State thing First off let's go
back to the deal bad deal bad deal OK other people got it for
free and also it's Chad TBT likeeverybody has it like what are
we talking about like you know what I mean like you can get a
free version of chat GT right now like what are we talking
about like do you really need like I was just reading that it
has like institutional benefits like they're integrating the
(07:48):
single sign on there's actually a custom code in this deal
single sign-on piece some enterprise security piece like
OK so there's like there was some sort of like oversight
committee clearly like I know I know how these deals work and
they got pushed on certain things and they said sure for
$16,000,000 yeah be happy to do it but I still think it's a bad
deal I don't think like why why like why like there's so many
free AI tools right now you're. Already already on Google works.
(08:11):
They're already using. If you Google anything, you get
Gemini. Yeah, like it's not great, but
it's there. Like, I don't know, part of me
just kind of feels, Yeah, like that's the other thing too.
I, I feel like whatever, what about Copilot, all the random
ones for Windows? Like there's like layers and
layers of AI LM tools that they could use.
So bad deal. I don't think it's a good deal
for the school on a financial basis.
(08:32):
I think it's kind of a waste of money.
You may as well just give every student a $20 rebate and then
they can go and use that to get whatever AI tool they want.
Like, why the hell do they have to do this?
But whatever, it's fine. Great institutional sale.
Kudos to the sales team. Yeah.
Second piece. Is this hype or not, you know,
or like fear hype or, you know, talk about this is a bad thing
or not? No, I think that I think there
(08:56):
are two sides to this. I'm gonna lay it out and then
I'll tell you. I feel so I feel like on the one
side, people are gonna use AI tools.
Yeah, period. Like this is the inevitable the
all industries, including education and the way we do
education have to change based on the nature of sort of like a
practical sort of piece to this.And of course we're going to be
(09:18):
super practical. You and I being business people,
being startup founders, also having business education, which
is a highly practical degree, like professional degree, like
for us, it's like, well, of course, they better change
education to be more fitting to this, right.
So to me, that kind of makes a lot of sense.
I have no issues with that. However, I do see the other flip
side of this where these tools will be misused.
(09:41):
And so I suppose the effort herewould be to have sort of like I
would hope that on the enterprise level for these
students there and faculty and staff, there are guardrails
around how they can use the AI tools, right?
The only problem is like, even if there are guardrails and like
they're instance, they're just gonna pop out and go to clode
and ask you something else. Yeah, like exactly right.
So, yeah. So and also we have this is also
(10:04):
in the backdrop, right, of this California.
Like they actually, we talked about the first law that they
passed around penalties for AI companies on, you know, an
oversight on this. I passed the second law around
actually consumer protection, which is great.
We don't we don't have an episode on that, but they did
some pretty good stuff to avoid this generation being sort of
experimented on by AI companies.But I do think that like, I
(10:24):
don't really that's this. This doesn't seem to marry that
in a way that I see as meaningful.
Like, I just don't really get itlike that.
These tools are gonna get used. It's gonna have to happen.
I don't see why they had to buy it.
And will people misuse it? Yes.
Can I ask you a question? Is it?
All things are true is where. I'm at Is Cal State's purchase
of this partly marketing? Is it partly to get the students
(10:49):
and the parents that really wanttheir kids to know how to use AI
effectively? Is it to attract them to that
school? CSU's ambition is to become the
first AI powered university system.
They wanted to be the first definitely.
I see that they probably look atthen.
OK, so then what was this deal done through the marketing
department? Like did they see that OHT hey
(11:10):
we could just spend $16,000,000 and be the first AI driven
system in the United States? Yeah.
OK, I can get behind that I can get behind.
That we're talking about it, people are talking about it.
So yeah. Maybe you're right.
That's a good. Question.
You know what I remember? I remember back when I went to
university, the commerce programat Queens University was the
(11:31):
first one to like kind of make it so that every commerce
student had to have a laptop, OK, and big uproar because those
were expensive pieces of equipment, OK, for still arches
and still are. But they they went ahead and did
that and that made them kind of like an innovator in in business
education and kind of put them at the forefront.
(11:53):
So I could totally see this as being, Hey, Cal State saying,
hey, you know, what were the AI leaders?
We're going to train people using AI and how to use AI.
And that puts us head and shoulders above our competitors,
which is other universities. But I think it's kind of
interesting. Yeah, I think you're right.
And I also think though, let's consider the kind of school that
that CSU is for a second. These state systems, right?
(12:16):
They're gonna have like, I thinkabout like the A&M system in
Texas, which we did a lot of business with like very spread
out, right? Like there's there's the main
school, but then there's like Texas A&M, you know, whatever.
And here and there and all thesedifferent locations, right.
Like this one thing I thought was kind of interesting that
this is that they're gonna see cool applications of AI, AI in
(12:36):
like rural settings, settings that maybe wouldn't have access
to this or like wouldn't consider it as something to
really bring into the education for those particular students.
So I do think there's some valuethere.
Oh I didn't see you there. I'm just reading Startup
Different, my book to help you get to your multi $1,000,000
(12:59):
business. You can find it on Amazon,
Audible and Kindle might actually be exposing people to
these tools who otherwise maybe wouldn't do it.
Like it's hard for us to this crazy because we're so in this.
It's hard for us to imagine somebody not embracing an AI
tool, right? And being like, what can I get?
(13:19):
What can I get out of this? So how can it be more
productive? Yeah, but there's actually I
think potentially a majority of people that are like, this is
just the thing that's gonna takemy job.
But now, if you're a student, you're like, OK, well, this is a
program or this is an institution that believes in
this like, we'll make just in these tools that can make me
better. Yeah.
And if I'm in this in these environments where maybe I
wouldn't have used it instead, maybe it'll actually give them a
(13:40):
material advantage. Like it might actually make the
students more innovative. Right.
So kind of raising the bar. Because they expectation because
they wouldn't do it. They wouldn't use it otherwise.
Right, exactly. And, and I think that's really
what what I think the biggest benefit will be.
The bar will be raised very high.
So expectations from faculty on students, work, things like
(14:00):
that, they're going to have to produce some really impressive
stuff and they're gonna have to really know that material really
well. Like, you know, one of the one
of the, as we know we've done episodes of the podcast on like
work Slopper, AI work slop. OK, Like faculty members aren't
gonna wanna deal with that, OK? They're not gonna wanna just let
you write a prompt and then copyand paste and submit that as
(14:21):
your assignment. They're going to push you to
really try and innovate using the AI and get to some place.
And keep thinking. About all the thinking.
So, but like there will be fits and starts on this.
They will mess this up. They will rethink it, and they
will try again. It's just gonna take awhile, I
think, to figure out how it actually fits into the education
system, how it fits into the pedagogy.
Big word. Wow.
(14:42):
You know Apple Word score. Yeah, I know, I know.
Yeah, Right. Yeah.
But yeah, I, I, I do think that's where they're going with
this. It's a big marketing push.
It's to show that their leaders in that field and then they're
not going to get it right at thebeginning.
They're going to rethink some things and they're going to run
at it again. Now, I don't know how quickly
they're going to be able to do that.
That's next year. Or it takes a few years before
(15:04):
they sort of figure out some of these things.
Hopefully they're evaluating howit's working and and going back
to it. I think there's the one thing
that I that I agree with you andthe one thing I think that's
kind of interesting too, is thatwhen they so some of the
complaints about this are that the faculty and people like
weren't really like consulted onthis purchase.
They they they like sole source this, which is pretty jokes
(15:26):
like. So as a as a person who sells in
is used to selling universities,colleges, that drives me
absolutely bat shit crazy that they could do as 16 point
whatever, $1,000,000 annually recurring purchase.
Yeah, or I don't know, like, however that's structured, but
like a big, really humongous purchase that didn't go to an
RFP process, that didn't go through all that.
(15:46):
Like there are tons of AI companies in California.
This is like the Mecca of AI. Yeah.
And they're like, man, what doesthis go right for it?
Like that's just stinks of the president said we need to do
something on the don't know why they're also Richard Nixon, but
they but to me, it's just like that that kind of drives me
(16:07):
nuts. And so I think this is a really
valid point here. Like this is really getting like
dropped on a lot of that university, which I think is
unfortunate. Anything complicated because all
of a sudden now all these administrators have to figure
this out. Now, we do have an interesting
insight in this, in our, that our brother is a professor and,
and, and obviously like has to deal with ChatGPT and all these
(16:30):
AI platforms is something that is a factor in the the work
being submitted to him. And he embraces it though.
And I thought this was an interesting strategy.
He's just like, what's gonna happen?
Yeah, right. And so a lot of the complaints
are, well, this is gonna make people like Dumber.
They're not going to critically think, they're not gonna, you
know, they're going to submit the work slot.
(16:51):
They're going to do this stuff. And I think what's fascinating
to me is like that could happen anyway that that will happen
anyway. So I do kind of think like,
well, you kind of get with the program for some of these
faculty members with this stuff.Yeah.
Now I don't know, maybe there's like specific programs where
it's like not advantageous, right?
I don't know, maybe they could design program or like you know,
(17:12):
I'm trying to think of what is something that would.
Be helpful, right? Like I have a whole lot of
things right, But you know, so let's go back to the calculator.
You know, they had to kind of like redesign math problems more
around like requiring your understanding rather than just
being able to do the steps right.
Do the do you? Recounting the calculator.
(17:34):
So I think part of the challengeis going to be the faculty
figuring out, OK, like how do I,how do I structure this so that
I actually know that the studentknew what I was talking about
and was able to like generate the right prompts and get the
right outputs from the AI, but then also come up with something
unique that they're contributingto it.
So I think that's really interesting because you can't,
(17:57):
you know, we're not just like obviously being able to create
really good prompts for AI is going to be a skill.
That text engineering. Yeah, context engineer got
correct. Yeah, yeah, we don't say.
We're we're, we're, we're on thewe're on the wave.
Let's. Go yeah, yeah.
But but that that's gonna be thechallenge is how do you actually
structure the the assessment so that you know that the students
(18:20):
actually getting some of it out of it.
I mean, it's probably ask AI, it'll help, we'll tell them how
to do it. I actually, I do wonder if it is
some degree of like, like you'retrying to feel like the
questions being something like you're trying to figure out this
problem. Ask use this prompt in your AI
tool. Yeah.
(18:40):
And you use the prompt and they go, what do you think of that
assessment? Where do you or the AI, you
know, like it's almost like, yeah, that next level of
thinking. I was listening to something
like we're actually, it was probably related to our workshop
episode a few weeks ago or months ago.
And it was like, you know, wherewhere you end up losing is when
the AI is making the decisions, making the strategic calls.
(19:01):
So I, I would be interesting to think of that the education is
more higher order. Yeah, you know what I mean?
Like it's like, Oh no, like you have to make these decisions,
you have to figure this out. And these are complex problems.
You have this really good assistant, yeah, but you are
still having to make strategic decisions.
And that's your grade based on that.
Absolutely. Kind of.
Interesting. Yeah, I, I ran the idea across
our brother. I was saying, well, like, what
(19:22):
if like anything that's goes towards your grade, you know,
you're, you're having to do it on paper, you can't use AI or
something. And he was just like.
Nah, yeah, that's like we have remember like.
Calculators like you can bring your calculator in, you know, So
he's like, no, you're AI. You know, it's so impractical to
be like, oh, you can't use it for this cause the real world,
(19:42):
you're gonna use it. Yeah.
The other thing too is remember I took a I didn't do so well and
then, but I took some computer science classes at Queens and I
remember like you had to write the code with a pencil on paper
like a. Stupid.
Yeah, we had to do. Was so dumb like why you never
do that in real? Life on the Internet, yeah,
because you go to stack like. There should be testing.
You wanna be like this is the problem.
(20:03):
It's complex. You have an hour to figure it
out. Go yeah, here's the Internet,
here's a here's all these thingsmake the best.
Solution question they were asking me back, you know, 25
years ago when I was doing thoseexams, OK, that I had to write
out the code. Now think about the question
that the professor is going to ask me if I have AI sitting next
to me. OK, Like I think part of it is
(20:25):
the burden on the the the instructor, the the faculty
member is pretty high because now you've got to try and sort
of separate who's actually learning, who's not learning.
And yeah, you know, how do you assess?
So, so here, let me come back tothe calculator question, just
sort of say you're hot take. Is the calculator analogy fair
(20:47):
or is it completely different now like we've said this a lot
with AI, you know, is it, is it completely different in this?
Situation. No, I think.
That what we've looked at. Now I think it's, I actually
think this one's pretty consistent.
It's another tool. It's a really, really powerful
tool. It's a calculator on steroids,
but and it works. It's a calculator for every kind
of class. For any question.
(21:08):
Or any question ever. But it's not like, I mean a
couple of things here, like it'snot always right, you know, is
the first thing is not always right.
Second thing is like it can structure a pretty shitty
response. Like you'd still need to
independently think and understand what's happening.
Yeah. So I'm not totally convinced.
Like it, it's, it's more complicated.
Yeah, I, I don't, I I do think it's a similar parallel and I
(21:30):
think you can look at it as a good comparison.
Yeah, but so as I prep for this episode, I did use AI to help me
look for some stuff and I asked a I like what are some other
things that would like destroy education and they're kind of
funny. You want to hear a few?
OK, alright. Printing press.
OK, students won't memorize anything.
(21:50):
What? The next 1 is really good
ballpoint pens, OK, because someschools banned them because it
was damaging penmanship like youknow that like that.
Really like calligraphy. Like like with the you know the
the quill. And the yeah, yeah.
Yeah, the. Like a true pen.
Like, yeah. That's true.
(22:10):
True penmanship. Yeah.
Pocket calculators would cover. It's a word processors.
Actually, that was like the devices that dad sold.
Spell check Google, Wikipedia and smartphones.
Smartphones was more like the 2000 and 10's and the argument
there was just that they were like a distraction with you
know, but which is totally accurate by the.
(22:32):
Way I. Can't remember being in our MBA
program and then. Everyone praying, everybody
packed. In front of that we used to
joke. It was like the BlackBerry
prayers cause everybody's. Down get their hands for it and
they get the placard in front ofthem.
So it's like, yeah, yeah, for sure.
That was brutal, yeah. Yeah.
Like I think this is more of thesame.
I'm less worried about this. Yeah.
The other thing is medication. I, I fundamentally believe that
(22:55):
the purpose of a lot of education is to teach people how
to think. So I'm, I, I, I am concerned
that AI can potentially, you know, have a negative effect on
that. But we're all aware of that.
I think a lot of people are aware of that.
Now, even if you do stuff with AI enough, you use an AI tool
for long enough on a project or on a thing like I'm working on
(23:16):
something, right? And I use it a lot.
And you just get kind of like burnt out and get tired of how
stupid it is sometimes. Like there's something to this
where you're just like, it's notquite smart enough.
Now this can change and everything, but I think the
fundamental thing here is if if an education system is teaching
people how to understand a problem, how to attack a
problem, and then offers you something as a force multiplier,
(23:38):
I think that's totally fine. I do.
Think you can't stop? It I do find that it really does
regurgitate things. It the the creativity piece is
not really there. And a lot of stuff like even
prepping for these episodes, I'mtrying to like, you know, say to
AI like, Hey, help us talk aboutthis.
And, you know, and I'm, I'm saying, hey, what about this
angle? Then of course it goes well and
(24:01):
I'm like, well, why didn't you suggest?
That or it has blind spots if you give it parameters that are
overly narrow by accident. Hey, I'm trying to do this thing
and I'm worried about XY and Z. It'll answer the and give you a
good answer on XY and Z, but it won't think of anything else.
It's not going to think outside of other like tangential risk
(24:23):
there unless you ask it. Is there something I'm missing?
Is there something else with this I'm a little worried about
that I don't understand. Otherwise it's just going to
give you a nice answer, make youfeel good about yourself and
send you on your way. Yeah, I, I think it's, it's
dangerous. It's it's actually dangerous
because it's, it's almost negative utility sometimes.
It's, it's, it's, it's one thingto give you the answer, but it
(24:44):
gives you the answer you want tohear, which is not what I want.
I want the accurate answer. I want the right information,
not the information that makes me feel good.
And it does that a lot. And I'm really, I get mad at it.
I'm like. God.
Damn it John GBT, give me the real answer here.
Like what is this? And like awful sorry you caught
me on that. Or like I shot.
(25:06):
Like, was she? Tell us how you really felt.
Anyway, But anyway, Long story short here like concluded this,
I think it's a good thing. I am surprised.
I think it's a bad deal for the school.
I get the marketing. People, though, you're very
impressed with the sales Rep that pulled this off?
Absolutely blown away. No, really like salesperson of
the year, but I, I think like, but then in terms of its
(25:29):
implications and its applicationat the institution, I think that
it's a good idea. It's the way of the future.
They're gonna do something anyway.
Yeah, you. May as well be equipping
students to understand how to handle it and critically
challenge it and as opposed to being like, oh, this is going to
be terrible for us and just likerunning from it.
So cool. Boom, startup different.
(25:52):
See you hey. Start it up, let's get it
rolling. Big ideas, Money folder, hustle,
Smart dream. So why turn that grind into a
joy? Ride.
They they like sole source this,which is pretty jokes like so as
a as a person who used to sell in the universities colleges,
that drives me absolutely batshit crazy that they could do
a 16 point whatever $1,000,000 annually recurring purchase that
didn't go to an RFP process. Like there are tons of AI
companies in California. This is like the Mecca of AI.
(00:21):
Like, that's just stinks of the president said.
We need to do something on this.Let's get it rolling.
Big ideas, money, hustle, smart dream.
So why bring that grinded? Through a joy ride.
(00:43):
Alright so this is episode 25. My working title for it is From
Calculators to ChatGPT. Y AI in the classroom isn't so
different. Can I offer that you got this
title from ChatGPT? Possibly it was 1.
Of many suggestions that remember I said working title
(01:04):
too. Yeah, well, it's pretty, pretty
bad. So let's let's move on from now.
On Great AI gave me title mine. Was have you?
Yeah, your titles. Mine was half a million
students. One chat bot open AI meets Cal
State. Sounds like a really shitty
movie. Don't be swell.
Yeah, yeah. So I was gonna have a great.
(01:26):
Time, yeah. Alright, boom.
Alright, Chris, tell me about what they're doing at Cal State
and White Disturbs. You OK, I.
Don't know if it disturbs, I don't.
Know if it does disturb, but we're gonna find out.
We'll see how I feel at the end of this episode.
So Cal State is paying Open AI 16.9 million for ChatGPT.
Peanuts. Edu for 460,000 plus students
(01:49):
and staff. Kind of cool.
Alright, pretty good deal that Ilike it.
Good for them. Yeah, it's the world's OHP
weight. You won't like it to SEC.
OK, so this is the world's largest rollout of ChatGPT, so
kind of cool. Kind of a weird comment.
I mean like. Million biggest no, no, but it's
like the biggest deal, you know?Like it's their biggest
institutional sale, there need to be sale.
Good for them. Yeah.
(02:10):
Yeah. I, I wonder anyway.
So they didn't. What's kind of answer your
question? They didn't go to.
That's the whole. Thing yeah, I know, I know.
OK, so I'm. Actually with the faculty on
that, but anyways. Why?
This is where we're going. So California community colleges
got a similar AI chat services from Google for 2.1 million
users for. Free.
(02:31):
So again, back to the genius sales guy here.
Oh yeah, you're going to get a way better version than that.
Don't even worry about. It Yeah, yeah, that was.
We heard they got it for free. Why aren't we getting it for
free? Well, I mean, you know, the
early bird gets the worm. So California community colleges
got Googles AI versus yeah. So.
(02:53):
Then they made. It there even a differentiation
like seriously like great sales pitch, but anyway.
Yeah, exactly. You get that guy?
On the phone or gal on the phoneOr do that deal.
Like seriously, good for them. Not the free one, the paid 1.
So if you do the math on it works at like $37 per user for
Cal State and 0 for California community.
College. So that second math was pretty
(03:14):
tough. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Public math. Public Math Keep.
Me out of trouble, Dave anyway, so the question is like did they
get a good deal on this? And then the second question is
like, alright, we're going down the road of this is like AI is
in education and it's like a thing.
And I feel like we've been here before with technology and
(03:35):
education. OK.
So I kind of wanted to say like,what what is the parallels to
previous technologies being implemented?
Kind of a couple of them. The first one I think of is the
calculator, which, you know, in the 1970s and 80s, there was
like the calculator panic, right?
(03:55):
Because calculators just became affordable.
Like people could go in and likeI think a big chunk of math
class was doing like. That is also like the lamest,
most boring. I know, panic long.
Time looking? What about the graphing
calculator? Panic.
X&Y. Yeah.
(04:16):
So, yeah, obviously it seems silly now looking back at it,
which is interesting because maybe we will look back on the
AI panic or introduction of AI into education as being like,
oh, wow, that was way overblown.But for there it was.
It was a big deal. So back then, you know, teachers
were worried students would losebasic math skills.
(04:37):
Old man, there's public math. Maybe we have.
Maybe it's already happening. Yeah, You know, concerns that
students wouldn't understand math concepts, students would
become dependent on the technology.
And, you know, they had lots of debates about whether they
should be banned, things like that, which is very similar to
what's happening with AI as well.
So we're kind of in that scenario.
(04:58):
But like what actually happened was calculators became standard.
Yeah. You know, there were just like
normal students still learn fundamental math concepts.
Instead of spending time on tedious calculations, students
could focus on like the actual problem solving applications and
stuff like. That well, like also in the real
world, like you would have thesetools it's like when you go to
school and you can't use Excel right and then the first thing
(05:19):
you do is like, hey, great job getting all that education being
at school for like 23 odd years,22 odd years here's Microsoft
Excel, forget everything you know so.
Like exactly. So math education, you know,
became about understanding over like, rote memorization and, you
know, you know, even later graph, those graphing
(05:40):
calculators, the X and the Y, Yeah, became required for
advanced math courses. Like like part of the math
course was actually knowing how to use that tack.
Force multiplier, Yeah, right. Makes you better.
Yeah, So couple of other examples, you know, spell check,
I remember force that was highly, Yep, controversial as
well. Actually.
Do you remember we had that, that you know, that that
(06:02):
typewriter thing when we were kids, like kind of before
desktop computers or PC's were? Like are older than me.
Yeah, you don't remember this, do you?
You're 10 years. Old dad sold these things.
Electric typewriter Electric. Typewriters.
They were actually called word processors.
Some of them had little light calculator displays and could do
spell check cool. And other ones started coming
(06:22):
out where they actually had likea screen, like one of those big
CRT screens you think? Like a keyboard, but not like
directly associated with. The computer was basically a
computer, but it was like very specific purpose and like the
printer was built right into. It's kinda cool actually.
You would type it all out, it would show on the screen, then
you would hit enter, and then itwould like do all the yeah, the
keystrokes and put it on the paper.
So yeah, anyways. Really somebody listening, this
(06:45):
is like super vibing right now. Yeah.
So that was that was one like the spell check.
Then obviously Internet Google. I know that was a big.
Thing then, yeah. We were going like when I was
doing going through university and then even like Wikipedia I
was. Going to say yeah, Wikipedia was
the big one probably for me, butparticularly my university years
was like, he's never source. Wikipedia example.
(07:05):
So the way these things kind of go is there's initially the
panic resistance, then experimental adoption, OK, then
it's like integration and then normalization and then sort of
like an evolution. So, so where, where are we in
that right now? We're kind of in the panic
resistance and kind of getting into the experimental adoption
(07:28):
here with this Cal. State thing First off let's go
back to the deal bad deal bad deal OK other people got it for
free and also it's Chad TBT likeeverybody has it like what are
we talking about like you know what I mean like you can get a
free version of chat GT right now like what are we talking
about like do you really need like I was just reading that it
has like institutional benefits like they're integrating the
(07:48):
single sign on there's actually a custom code in this deal
single sign-on piece some enterprise security piece like
OK so there's like there was some sort of like oversight
committee clearly like I know I know how these deals work and
they got pushed on certain things and they said sure for
$16,000,000 yeah be happy to do it but I still think it's a bad
deal I don't think like why why like why like there's so many
free AI tools right now you're. Already already on Google works.
(08:11):
They're already using. If you Google anything, you get
Gemini. Yeah, like it's not great, but
it's there. Like, I don't know, part of me
just kind of feels, Yeah, like that's the other thing too.
I, I feel like whatever, what about Copilot, all the random
ones for Windows? Like there's like layers and
layers of AI LM tools that they could use.
So bad deal. I don't think it's a good deal
for the school on a financial basis.
(08:32):
I think it's kind of a waste of money.
You may as well just give every student a $20 rebate and then
they can go and use that to get whatever AI tool they want.
Like, why the hell do they have to do this?
But whatever, it's fine. Great institutional sale.
Kudos to the sales team. Yeah.
Second piece. Is this hype or not, you know,
or like fear hype or, you know, talk about this is a bad thing
or not? No, I think that I think there
(08:56):
are two sides to this. I'm gonna lay it out and then
I'll tell you. I feel so I feel like on the one
side, people are gonna use AI tools.
Yeah, period. Like this is the inevitable the
all industries, including education and the way we do
education have to change based on the nature of sort of like a
practical sort of piece to this.And of course we're going to be
(09:18):
super practical. You and I being business people,
being startup founders, also having business education, which
is a highly practical degree, like professional degree, like
for us, it's like, well, of course, they better change
education to be more fitting to this, right.
So to me, that kind of makes a lot of sense.
I have no issues with that. However, I do see the other flip
side of this where these tools will be misused.
(09:41):
And so I suppose the effort herewould be to have sort of like I
would hope that on the enterprise level for these
students there and faculty and staff, there are guardrails
around how they can use the AI tools, right?
The only problem is like, even if there are guardrails and like
they're instance, they're just gonna pop out and go to clode
and ask you something else. Yeah, like exactly right.
So, yeah. So and also we have this is also
(10:04):
in the backdrop, right, of this California.
Like they actually, we talked about the first law that they
passed around penalties for AI companies on, you know, an
oversight on this. I passed the second law around
actually consumer protection, which is great.
We don't we don't have an episode on that, but they did
some pretty good stuff to avoid this generation being sort of
experimented on by AI companies.But I do think that like, I
(10:24):
don't really that's this. This doesn't seem to marry that
in a way that I see as meaningful.
Like, I just don't really get itlike that.
These tools are gonna get used. It's gonna have to happen.
I don't see why they had to buy it.
And will people misuse it? Yes.
Can I ask you a question? Is it?
All things are true is where. I'm at Is Cal State's purchase
of this partly marketing? Is it partly to get the students
(10:49):
and the parents that really wanttheir kids to know how to use AI
effectively? Is it to attract them to that
school? CSU's ambition is to become the
first AI powered university system.
They wanted to be the first definitely.
I see that they probably look atthen.
OK, so then what was this deal done through the marketing
department? Like did they see that OHT hey
(11:10):
we could just spend $16,000,000 and be the first AI driven
system in the United States? Yeah.
OK, I can get behind that I can get behind.
That we're talking about it, people are talking about it.
So yeah. Maybe you're right.
That's a good. Question.
You know what I remember? I remember back when I went to
university, the commerce programat Queens University was the
(11:31):
first one to like kind of make it so that every commerce
student had to have a laptop, OK, and big uproar because those
were expensive pieces of equipment, OK, for still arches
and still are. But they they went ahead and did
that and that made them kind of like an innovator in in business
education and kind of put them at the forefront.
(11:53):
So I could totally see this as being, Hey, Cal State saying,
hey, you know, what were the AI leaders?
We're going to train people using AI and how to use AI.
And that puts us head and shoulders above our competitors,
which is other universities. But I think it's kind of
interesting. Yeah, I think you're right.
And I also think though, let's consider the kind of school that
that CSU is for a second. These state systems, right?
(12:16):
They're gonna have like, I thinkabout like the A&M system in
Texas, which we did a lot of business with like very spread
out, right? Like there's there's the main
school, but then there's like Texas A&M, you know, whatever.
And here and there and all thesedifferent locations, right.
Like this one thing I thought was kind of interesting that
this is that they're gonna see cool applications of AI, AI in
(12:36):
like rural settings, settings that maybe wouldn't have access
to this or like wouldn't consider it as something to
really bring into the education for those particular students.
So I do think there's some valuethere.
Oh I didn't see you there. I'm just reading Startup
Different, my book to help you get to your multi $1,000,000
(12:59):
business. You can find it on Amazon,
Audible and Kindle might actually be exposing people to
these tools who otherwise maybe wouldn't do it.
Like it's hard for us to this crazy because we're so in this.
It's hard for us to imagine somebody not embracing an AI
tool, right? And being like, what can I get?
(13:19):
What can I get out of this? So how can it be more
productive? Yeah, but there's actually I
think potentially a majority of people that are like, this is
just the thing that's gonna takemy job.
But now, if you're a student, you're like, OK, well, this is a
program or this is an institution that believes in
this like, we'll make just in these tools that can make me
better. Yeah.
And if I'm in this in these environments where maybe I
wouldn't have used it instead, maybe it'll actually give them a
(13:40):
material advantage. Like it might actually make the
students more innovative. Right.
So kind of raising the bar. Because they expectation because
they wouldn't do it. They wouldn't use it otherwise.
Right, exactly. And, and I think that's really
what what I think the biggest benefit will be.
The bar will be raised very high.
So expectations from faculty on students, work, things like
(14:00):
that, they're going to have to produce some really impressive
stuff and they're gonna have to really know that material really
well. Like, you know, one of the one
of the, as we know we've done episodes of the podcast on like
work Slopper, AI work slop. OK, Like faculty members aren't
gonna wanna deal with that, OK? They're not gonna wanna just let
you write a prompt and then copyand paste and submit that as
(14:21):
your assignment. They're going to push you to
really try and innovate using the AI and get to some place.
And keep thinking. About all the thinking.
So, but like there will be fits and starts on this.
They will mess this up. They will rethink it, and they
will try again. It's just gonna take awhile, I
think, to figure out how it actually fits into the education
system, how it fits into the pedagogy.
Big word. Wow.
(14:42):
You know Apple Word score. Yeah, I know, I know.
Yeah, Right. Yeah.
But yeah, I, I, I do think that's where they're going with
this. It's a big marketing push.
It's to show that their leaders in that field and then they're
not going to get it right at thebeginning.
They're going to rethink some things and they're going to run
at it again. Now, I don't know how quickly
they're going to be able to do that.
That's next year. Or it takes a few years before
(15:04):
they sort of figure out some of these things.
Hopefully they're evaluating howit's working and and going back
to it. I think there's the one thing
that I that I agree with you andthe one thing I think that's
kind of interesting too, is thatwhen they so some of the
complaints about this are that the faculty and people like
weren't really like consulted onthis purchase.
They they they like sole source this, which is pretty jokes
(15:26):
like. So as a as a person who sells in
is used to selling universities,colleges, that drives me
absolutely bat shit crazy that they could do as 16 point
whatever, $1,000,000 annually recurring purchase.
Yeah, or I don't know, like, however that's structured, but
like a big, really humongous purchase that didn't go to an
RFP process, that didn't go through all that.
(15:46):
Like there are tons of AI companies in California.
This is like the Mecca of AI. Yeah.
And they're like, man, what doesthis go right for it?
Like that's just stinks of the president said we need to do
something on the don't know why they're also Richard Nixon, but
they but to me, it's just like that that kind of drives me
(16:07):
nuts. And so I think this is a really
valid point here. Like this is really getting like
dropped on a lot of that university, which I think is
unfortunate. Anything complicated because all
of a sudden now all these administrators have to figure
this out. Now, we do have an interesting
insight in this, in our, that our brother is a professor and,
and, and obviously like has to deal with ChatGPT and all these
(16:30):
AI platforms is something that is a factor in the the work
being submitted to him. And he embraces it though.
And I thought this was an interesting strategy.
He's just like, what's gonna happen?
Yeah, right. And so a lot of the complaints
are, well, this is gonna make people like Dumber.
They're not going to critically think, they're not gonna, you
know, they're going to submit the work slot.
(16:51):
They're going to do this stuff. And I think what's fascinating
to me is like that could happen anyway that that will happen
anyway. So I do kind of think like,
well, you kind of get with the program for some of these
faculty members with this stuff.Yeah.
Now I don't know, maybe there's like specific programs where
it's like not advantageous, right?
I don't know, maybe they could design program or like you know,
(17:12):
I'm trying to think of what is something that would.
Be helpful, right? Like I have a whole lot of
things right, But you know, so let's go back to the calculator.
You know, they had to kind of like redesign math problems more
around like requiring your understanding rather than just
being able to do the steps right.
Do the do you? Recounting the calculator.
(17:34):
So I think part of the challengeis going to be the faculty
figuring out, OK, like how do I,how do I structure this so that
I actually know that the studentknew what I was talking about
and was able to like generate the right prompts and get the
right outputs from the AI, but then also come up with something
unique that they're contributingto it.
So I think that's really interesting because you can't,
(17:57):
you know, we're not just like obviously being able to create
really good prompts for AI is going to be a skill.
That text engineering. Yeah, context engineer got
correct. Yeah, yeah, we don't say.
We're we're, we're, we're on thewe're on the wave.
Let's. Go yeah, yeah.
But but that that's gonna be thechallenge is how do you actually
structure the the assessment so that you know that the students
(18:20):
actually getting some of it out of it.
I mean, it's probably ask AI, it'll help, we'll tell them how
to do it. I actually, I do wonder if it is
some degree of like, like you'retrying to feel like the
questions being something like you're trying to figure out this
problem. Ask use this prompt in your AI
tool. Yeah.
(18:40):
And you use the prompt and they go, what do you think of that
assessment? Where do you or the AI, you
know, like it's almost like, yeah, that next level of
thinking. I was listening to something
like we're actually, it was probably related to our workshop
episode a few weeks ago or months ago.
And it was like, you know, wherewhere you end up losing is when
the AI is making the decisions, making the strategic calls.
(19:01):
So I, I would be interesting to think of that the education is
more higher order. Yeah, you know what I mean?
Like it's like, Oh no, like you have to make these decisions,
you have to figure this out. And these are complex problems.
You have this really good assistant, yeah, but you are
still having to make strategic decisions.
And that's your grade based on that.
Absolutely. Kind of.
Interesting. Yeah, I, I ran the idea across
our brother. I was saying, well, like, what
(19:22):
if like anything that's goes towards your grade, you know,
you're, you're having to do it on paper, you can't use AI or
something. And he was just like.
Nah, yeah, that's like we have remember like.
Calculators like you can bring your calculator in, you know, So
he's like, no, you're AI. You know, it's so impractical to
be like, oh, you can't use it for this cause the real world,
(19:42):
you're gonna use it. Yeah.
The other thing too is remember I took a I didn't do so well and
then, but I took some computer science classes at Queens and I
remember like you had to write the code with a pencil on paper
like a. Stupid.
Yeah, we had to do. Was so dumb like why you never
do that in real? Life on the Internet, yeah,
because you go to stack like. There should be testing.
You wanna be like this is the problem.
(20:03):
It's complex. You have an hour to figure it
out. Go yeah, here's the Internet,
here's a here's all these thingsmake the best.
Solution question they were asking me back, you know, 25
years ago when I was doing thoseexams, OK, that I had to write
out the code. Now think about the question
that the professor is going to ask me if I have AI sitting next
to me. OK, Like I think part of it is
(20:25):
the burden on the the the instructor, the the faculty
member is pretty high because now you've got to try and sort
of separate who's actually learning, who's not learning.
And yeah, you know, how do you assess?
So, so here, let me come back tothe calculator question, just
sort of say you're hot take. Is the calculator analogy fair
(20:47):
or is it completely different now like we've said this a lot
with AI, you know, is it, is it completely different in this?
Situation. No, I think.
That what we've looked at. Now I think it's, I actually
think this one's pretty consistent.
It's another tool. It's a really, really powerful
tool. It's a calculator on steroids,
but and it works. It's a calculator for every kind
of class. For any question.
(21:08):
Or any question ever. But it's not like, I mean a
couple of things here, like it'snot always right, you know, is
the first thing is not always right.
Second thing is like it can structure a pretty shitty
response. Like you'd still need to
independently think and understand what's happening.
Yeah. So I'm not totally convinced.
Like it, it's, it's more complicated.
Yeah, I, I don't, I I do think it's a similar parallel and I
(21:30):
think you can look at it as a good comparison.
Yeah, but so as I prep for this episode, I did use AI to help me
look for some stuff and I asked a I like what are some other
things that would like destroy education and they're kind of
funny. You want to hear a few?
OK, alright. Printing press.
OK, students won't memorize anything.
(21:50):
What? The next 1 is really good
ballpoint pens, OK, because someschools banned them because it
was damaging penmanship like youknow that like that.
Really like calligraphy. Like like with the you know the
the quill. And the yeah, yeah.
Yeah, the. Like a true pen.
Like, yeah. That's true.
(22:10):
True penmanship. Yeah.
Pocket calculators would cover. It's a word processors.
Actually, that was like the devices that dad sold.
Spell check Google, Wikipedia and smartphones.
Smartphones was more like the 2000 and 10's and the argument
there was just that they were like a distraction with you
know, but which is totally accurate by the.
(22:32):
Way I. Can't remember being in our MBA
program and then. Everyone praying, everybody
packed. In front of that we used to
joke. It was like the BlackBerry
prayers cause everybody's. Down get their hands for it and
they get the placard in front ofthem.
So it's like, yeah, yeah, for sure.
That was brutal, yeah. Yeah.
Like I think this is more of thesame.
I'm less worried about this. Yeah.
The other thing is medication. I, I fundamentally believe that
(22:55):
the purpose of a lot of education is to teach people how
to think. So I'm, I, I, I am concerned
that AI can potentially, you know, have a negative effect on
that. But we're all aware of that.
I think a lot of people are aware of that.
Now, even if you do stuff with AI enough, you use an AI tool
for long enough on a project or on a thing like I'm working on
(23:16):
something, right? And I use it a lot.
And you just get kind of like burnt out and get tired of how
stupid it is sometimes. Like there's something to this
where you're just like, it's notquite smart enough.
Now this can change and everything, but I think the
fundamental thing here is if if an education system is teaching
people how to understand a problem, how to attack a
problem, and then offers you something as a force multiplier,
(23:38):
I think that's totally fine. I do.
Think you can't stop? It I do find that it really does
regurgitate things. It the the creativity piece is
not really there. And a lot of stuff like even
prepping for these episodes, I'mtrying to like, you know, say to
AI like, Hey, help us talk aboutthis.
And, you know, and I'm, I'm saying, hey, what about this
angle? Then of course it goes well and
(24:01):
I'm like, well, why didn't you suggest?
That or it has blind spots if you give it parameters that are
overly narrow by accident. Hey, I'm trying to do this thing
and I'm worried about XY and Z. It'll answer the and give you a
good answer on XY and Z, but it won't think of anything else.
It's not going to think outside of other like tangential risk
(24:23):
there unless you ask it. Is there something I'm missing?
Is there something else with this I'm a little worried about
that I don't understand. Otherwise it's just going to
give you a nice answer, make youfeel good about yourself and
send you on your way. Yeah, I, I think it's, it's
dangerous. It's it's actually dangerous
because it's, it's almost negative utility sometimes.
It's, it's, it's, it's one thingto give you the answer, but it
(24:44):
gives you the answer you want tohear, which is not what I want.
I want the accurate answer. I want the right information,
not the information that makes me feel good.
And it does that a lot. And I'm really, I get mad at it.
I'm like. God.
Damn it John GBT, give me the real answer here.
Like what is this? And like awful sorry you caught
me on that. Or like I shot.
(25:06):
Like, was she? Tell us how you really felt.
Anyway, But anyway, Long story short here like concluded this,
I think it's a good thing. I am surprised.
I think it's a bad deal for the school.
I get the marketing. People, though, you're very
impressed with the sales Rep that pulled this off?
Absolutely blown away. No, really like salesperson of
the year, but I, I think like, but then in terms of its
(25:29):
implications and its applicationat the institution, I think that
it's a good idea. It's the way of the future.
They're gonna do something anyway.
Yeah, you. May as well be equipping
students to understand how to handle it and critically
challenge it and as opposed to being like, oh, this is going to
be terrible for us and just likerunning from it.
So cool. Boom, startup different.
(25:52):
See you hey. Start it up, let's get it
rolling. Big ideas, Money folder, hustle,
Smart dream. So why turn that grind into a
joy? Ride.
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