December 6, 2021 • 32 mins
Michael Bayliss of the Post-Growth Australia Podcast likes all kinds of communication, whether it’s hosting thoughtful and conversational interviews, his communications role at Sustainable Population Australia, or spreading ecological messages with his band, Shock Octopus. This week, Brian puts Michael in the hotseat to discuss these projects, Blockade Australia and direct action, Green Party-backed housing sprawl and a whole lot more.
Michael's website: https://michaelbayliss.org/
Post-Growth Australia Podcast: https://pgap.fireside.fm/
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Pat Choate (00:06):
From the Center for the Advancement of the Steady
State Economy, this is TheSteady Stater, a podcast
dedicated to discussing limitsto growth and the steady state
economy.
Brian Czech (00:17):
Welcome to the show! I'm your host, Brian
Czech, and our guest today isMichael Bayliss, National
Communications Manager atSustainable Population Australia
for SPA. SPA is a non-partisanadvocacy group that works toward
an ecologically sustainablehuman population. In kind of a
(00:38):
role reversal here, Michael isalso the host of the Post-Growth
Australia Podcast. He's beenbroadcasting thoughtful and
entertaining interviews andcommentary since the summer of
2020, basically in sync with TheSteady Stater. Michael is also a
musician, former social worker,and a former political
(00:59):
candidate. He's been tryingeverything to move us to a
sustainable post-growth world,and we like that kind of
ambition. Michael Bayliss,welcome to The Steady Stater!
Michael Bayliss (01:11):
Thank you so much on having me on, Brian. And
dare I say, I'm a huge fan ofCASSE. I'm a huge fan of you.
And as a fellow podcast host,I'm a massive fan of The Steady
Stater. So I'm sorry if that's abit of a fanboy start. But I
thought I'd better get that outof the way.
Brian Czech (01:32):
That's the kind of start we like, thanks so much.
Well, we know you're a steadystater, you're a CASSE
signatory, and your website andyour podcast are loaded with
great steady state stuff. I wantto ask you kind of -- a kind of
a personal question. But youknow -- semi-personal I guess --
you know, you left the city ofMelbourne not too long ago, and
(01:54):
move to Western Australia,closer to your home city of
Perth. I have to ask was globalheating a factor in that
decision?
Michael Bayliss (02:03):
In parts, although going to Western
Australia to escape heat is alittle bit of an oxymoron,
because I've moved to theextreme south of Western
Australia which has a verytemperate climate due to the
cold oceans. I think really, oneof the big reasons of leaving
(02:25):
Melbourne is I couldn't standthe thought of being in a huge
megalopolis growing at about100,000 people per year, and
with all the congestion andconcrete joys that brings with
it. I'm glad I have moved,because Melbourne is certainly
having quite a few problems atthe moment, quite a few
(02:48):
protests, and quite a fewdifferences of opinion. It seems
like Western Australia'senvironmental laws are now
better than Victoria's, andVictoria, where Melbourne is,
was supposed to be the left wingstates so, swings and
roundabouts, Brian.
Brian Czech (03:04):
Very interesting in it. Certainly the part about
getting out of that congestionresonates with all of us around
here, I suspect, Evidently themost listened-to episode of your
podcast -- and once again,that's the Post-Growth Australia
Podcast -- remains the firstepisode featuring Martin Tye.
Some of our listeners may recallthat Martin is a CASSE Chapter
(03:25):
Director. Namely, he's theAustralian Regional Communities
Chapter Director. Now, Michael,we know Martin can be
compelling, as anyone who getshis Twitter feed can attest, but
why do you think out of all theepisodes you've produced that
one seems to have struck such achord?
Michael Bayliss (03:43):
Well, I think the passage of time, plays a
little bit to do with it. It'sbeen around a lot longer than
the other episodes, and so itcollected listens over time. But
look, that aside, I suspect themessage of CASSE just rings loud
and clear. And Martin is also avery very effective
(04:06):
communicator. He's been verygood for me for a number of
years. He actually got me intoan interview where I interviewed
Ngunnawal, indigenous advocatein Canberra, on First Nation's
perspective on overdevelopment,and population growth in
Canberra, which has led me onthe path to trying to bring a
(04:28):
diversity of voices on the tableon this very divisive issue on
population. But Martin such agreat communicator, he taught me
into getting into Twitter andhow to be a better tweeter -- I
always thought Twitter was justa forum where social justice
warriors go to cancel it. So,you know Martin's posts and the
(04:51):
post-growth realm can sometimesbe criticized for being a bit
overly academic. But Martin hasa great fantastic ability to
make it so tangible and real forpeople. And I think ultimately,
that's why that episode did sowell.
Brian Czech (05:06):
Yeah, we love Martin. And you're right. He's a
great communicator. Those folksout there on Twitter, or if
you're not, you should get onit. You can find Martin Tye --
Tye is T-Y-E. Yeah, it's a greatTwitter feed. Now, Michael,
you've spent some time workingin Africa, including Kenya and
Uganda. And evidently, anotherof your favorite interviews was
with the Ugandan-born journalistFlorence Bondel. She spoke with
(05:30):
you about overpopulation, whichis a profoundly important issue
in Uganda. Uganda, having theyoungest population in the
world, something like 77% of thepopulace is under 25 years of
age. Now, Michael, you seem tomake a special effort to promote
the voices of women from thesefinancially strapped places.
(05:50):
Does that bring you into somesurprising -- or surprising
effect of I should say --networks? And what did what did
you learn from that interviewwith Florence Bondel?
Michael Bayliss (06:02):
One of my biggest motivators is there's a
lot of misconceptions when itcomes to population. There's a
lot of assumptions, particularlyfrom the left and very
well-meaning people that youknow, we're speaking on behalf
of the Global South and blamingwomen from the Global South, our
consumption habits. So there isactually very little dialogue
(06:27):
out there are people from theGlobal North, actually, you
know, talking to people from theGlobal South on this issue. So
interviews with Florence Blondelare very important. She's so
succinctly and passionately andviscerally, just cut down
through so many of thosemisconceptions and myths -- that
(06:48):
there is a demand forcontraception for family
planning by women in the globalsouth, that's just been unmet.
And what family planning andthese initiatives do is try to
close the gap between demand andsupply to give people in the
global south to same rights andaccess to family planning and
(07:10):
contraception that us in theGlobal North take for granted.
Brian Czech (07:15):
And sticking with Uganda for a moment. What about
Bobi Wine? I know he's a superpopular entertainer and
politician among the younger andmiddle age crowd in Uganda. And
he seems to have a network ofsmart steady state thinkers and
knows potential ministers. We'vemet some of them. And I'm
wondering how would that look ifa president from the heart of
(07:37):
Africa said to the rest of theworld, you know what, we reject
the Western World Bankglobalized push for economic
growth -- we don't care aboutGDP. We want our country in our
culture intact. And that's ourpriority moving forward. How
heroic would that be, Michael?
Michael Bayliss (07:58):
I mean, that would be an absolute dream come
true. I know there are somecountries in the world that are
already beacons for a degree ofchange, whether we're looking at
Costa Rica, or in CentralAmerica, or New Zealand,
exploring well-being models ofgrowth and moving away from the
(08:19):
GDP, to some extent Bhutan,Ecuador, before they voted in a
government that kind of reversesome of those trends. But I've
been very impressed by some ofthe movers and shakers in
Uganda. It's certainly far fromperfect, but, that would be
absolutely amazing. I'd love tosee that just somewhere in
(08:42):
Central Africa, sticking up thetwo fingers to the system or
bring it on.
Brian Czech (08:48):
Exactly. Your podcast is supported, of course
by Sustainable PopulationAustralia, and their vision is a
relationship between people andthe environment in which the
human population stays withinplanetary boundaries. It appears
they're quite alright with youemphasizing the link between
overpopulation and the overgrowneconomy. Unlike a lot of other
(09:12):
population organizations thatnever really connect the dots.
Were they always leaders thatway or did you bring that to the
table?
Michael Bayliss (09:21):
I have spoken to many people in Sustainable
Population Australia who haveall shared their perspective
that it's so much easier to talkabout population, if you talk
about it within the broadercontext of the post-growth,
degrowth, alternative economicchange models. And I think the
(09:43):
reason for that is people knowwhere they stand with you then.
You know, they know you whatyour ulterior motive right on
the table is about talking aboutpopulation, you know that it's
not some nefarious eugenicsmovement. It's like most people
agree on principle that youcan't grow infinitely on a
(10:05):
finite planet, and that theeconomies worldwide need to slow
down even go back a little bitin the cases of the Global
North. So, once you factor thatin, and once you talk about the
fact well, you can't have asteady state or degrowth economy
if your population isexponentially growing. So I
(10:28):
think within that context, it isso much easier to talk about.
It's also a lot easier todisagree with people, there have
been plenty of people on mypodcasts who've had a completely
different perspective onpopulation. But we agree on the
degrowth and post-growth. So, Ilike to think that I can
engineer a dialogue that showsanother way that you don't have
(10:50):
to be at loggerheads, you canhave differences of opinion, but
also find a middle ground.
Brian Czech (10:56):
That's a great answer. Meanwhile, Michael, at
your podcast, one of yourfavorite topics is housing.
You've noted that Australialoses 2 million hectares to
sprawl every year, (that's about5 million acres for American
listeners). You also talkedabout some proposals to build a
million new houses in Australia.
Now we looked into who istouting such a landscape breaker
(11:18):
-- we assumed it would be therealtors and developers and all
backed by the big banks. But wewere astonished to find that it
was The Green Party! They seemto blame property developers and
multiple home owners forunaffordable housing, but their
solution is to try and buildtheir way around the problem.
Michael Bayliss (11:41):
Yes, well, the problem is with many in the
environmental movements is thatthey think it's just a problem
of running the things we build.
So it's fine to carpet thecontinent with houses and
concrete over what was oncenatural land to build those a
billion new dwellings, so longas they all run on solar panels.
(12:04):
And, you know, I always arguewe've got one of the worst
species extinction rates, Ithink, at least in the OECD, and
I think comparable to manyglobal south countries in
Australia, in part due to ourridiculous urban sprawl
experiment. And from theperspective of a koala, it
doesn't matter how many solarpanels you have on a house, you
(12:27):
know, once your habitat has beenmowed, once there's the road
linking in between all yourfragmented habitats, and once
you've been run over byeveryone's SUVs that might be
run on, you know, theelectricity grid or something.
You know, you can have all therenewable energies in the world.
But once you've paved paradiseand built a parking lot -- thank
(12:48):
you for that, Joni Mitchell --Well, that's something you just
never going to get back. Sothat's one of the reasons why
I'm a huge critic of the housingmarket. It is the coalface -- I
say that, ironically -- ofAustralia's growth-based economy
in the last stages of late stagecapitalism.
Brian Czech (13:12):
Yeah, it's really a light in a pro-growth Australian
economy. One of your many titlesthat we didn't mention at the
top of the show today was miner!That's M-I-N-E-R. You labored in
a bauxite mine in your youngerdays; bauxite being the world's
main source of aluminum, andAustralia being the world's
(13:33):
biggest producer thereof. So howdoes your time in the mine
inform your post-growthmessaging, Michael?
Michael Bayliss (13:40):
Well, I like to argue that as a Western
Australian -- because I was bornand bred in Western Australia --
that there aren't many optionsfor an aspiring young person
other than to mine. I wasn'tdirectly mining, I was actually
in the ergonomics sector. And Iwas filming safety videos for
(14:03):
the mining speculators onsite inthe Gera forests, which is, you
know, the second degrees ofseparation from actually doing
the thing. So, you know, wipe myhands clean of responsibility --
no, not really. I talked to oneof the miners, and he was
driving me around and he said,what we're doing is just
(14:23):
absolutely reprehensible. Itbreaks my heart. He said, don't
tell anyone I'm telling theworld now. Though I won't give
his name. Look, I wrote a songfrom that. It was the first song
I ever wrote for my new -- forwhat was then my new band in
2009, Shock Octopus. It wascalled A Deer! Caught! In The
Headlights! And it's basedaround that existential dread.
(14:48):
There's indigenous people or theother species that we share the
continent with feel when theysee their homelands being
cleared for progress. The lyricsare quite vague, so it was a bit
weird live sets to see everyonedancing around to that song,
having the times of their livesand that became a live staple
(15:08):
favorite, when really, thecontext is really nothing to
celebrate.
Brian Czech (15:15):
Well, this will kind of come out of nowhere. But
how do you like to set us aprecedent right here on The
Steady Stater and sing us astanza from one of your Shock
Octopus favorites? Like maybe ADeer! Caught! In The Headlights?
Michael Bayliss (15:28):
Oh, dear, that's putting me on the spot.
Alright. Well, the chorus of thesong goes, "boom time make me
wanna holler, boom time drawn meto pallor, boring new holes
through your wood." So that'sone line from it.
Brian Czech (15:49):
I think that gives us a flavor of that song. And
yeah, we need I think we needmore of that. I'm really curious
how much luck have you had ingraining the masses with some
ecological economics via rockmusic?
Michael Bayliss (16:05):
Very interesting question. I think we
made, the band has made theecological stuff more in the
forefront of what we do. I thinkwhen we started, we're more
interested in just being a bandfirst. And you know, the message
seconds, but we've really pushedthe message more forward in the
last few years. And though Ican't say we, you know, set the
(16:28):
charts ablaze. We have had a lotof reviews. In fact, one
magazine got into contact withme and asked me to list my top
five favorite existential dreadenvironmental songs, which got
published. And it was reallygreat to be able to share that
(16:48):
because I got to share some ofmy other musicians and artists
that have really inspired thelyrical and the themes of my own
work during the years yeah.
Brian Czech (16:59):
We have to have an episode on this. Well, actually
we should play some of thesesongs and maybe even get your
band on live. Think that'sdoable?
Michael Bayliss (17:10):
Well, Nirvana could do unplugged, so why not?
Brian Czech (17:15):
Yeah, exactly.
Well, Michael, we got a numberof questions yet, but first, we
need to take a shortnon-commercial break with James
Lamont. Take it away, James!
James Lamont (17:31):
Hello, listeners.
We hope you're enjoying ourconversation with Michael
Bayliss of the Post-GrowthAustralia Podcast. Like The
Steady Stater, PGAP is availableon the streaming service
Spotify. If you have a Spotifyaccount, we encourage you to
locate the shows on the app orthe website and click the Follow
button. This will help boost TheSteady Stater and PGAP on the
platform. Both podcasts willbenefit and we'll grow the
(17:53):
audience for a post-growthsteady state economy. And now
back to the show!
Brian Czech (18:00):
Welcome back Steady Staters, we're talking with
Michael Bayliss of SustainablePopulation Australia. His newly
launched website ismichaelbayliss.org, a really
interesting collection ofMichael steady state efforts
over the years I heartilyrecommend it. Now, Michael, you
know, there been some protestsrecently by the group Blockade
(18:22):
Australia, that's in Newcastle,where the world's largest coal
port is located. And inresponse, the police minister of
New South Wales called theseprotests, how did he described
it... "nothing short of economicvandalism." Meanwhile, the
Deputy Prime Minister put itpretty bluntly said, "We've got
to make a buck." So thesegovernment growth men are dead
(18:44):
serious doer. Aren't theypushing for sentences of up to
25 years for these protesters?
Michael Bayliss (18:52):
It's incredible. I know of
Environment Center where acouple of my acquaintances
worked and lived nearby and areraided by the police. I believe
it was in relation to theseprotests. You know, I looked up
the Blockade a little bit morebefore the interview. And I see
(19:13):
there's a big protest in Sydneynext year in May. And if it's
possible to transverse aroundthe continent next year, I might
go to that. Because you know, Icome from the Derrick Jensen
School of Thinking, who's aauthor and a guest on PGAP's
second most popular episode.
That direct action is reallycritical. And the system will do
(19:35):
everything it can to try topreserve itself to appropriate
everything and twist people andthings and concepts around --
like you can't even have acommunity garden in a suburb
without raising the land valuesand gentrifying, you know, the
(19:56):
surrounding areas. So you know,late stage capitalism is so good
at keeping itself afloat nomatter what. I know many
commentators like Nicole Foss,Automatic Earth, predicted, you
know, there's going to be afinancial collapse 10 years ago.
There hasn't been -- because,you know, those in charge don't
play by the same rules ofcapitalism that they make the
(20:20):
rest of us have to live by. So Ithink changing the dialogue,
which we do at CASSE, which wedo at SPA, which I hopefully do
on the podcast, as well asdirect action, and sometimes
very visceral action. Well, youknow, direct action done with
compassion and love for thenatural world and for equality,
(20:40):
not just going in protesting forthe sake of protests, you know,
not just about anything, becausethere have been some protests
against the government. Forexample, vaccination, blah,
blah, blah, that I don't youknow, fully agree with. But when
it comes to environment, I thinkwe've got to be loud and mean,
which I hope I was, to somedegree, when I went on the
(21:01):
Extinction Rebellion week ofactions back in 2019.
Brian Czech (21:08):
Well, that all resonates with me. One thing
about direct action is you neverknow what's going to happen, and
what's going to come out ofthat. And a lot of times, it's
quite surprising. You know, Iused to take part in those World
Bank demonstrations back around2000. That was before 9/11.
After that, it became a lotharder to do anything like that
(21:28):
in the USA, but it's a great wayto network and communicate to a
very receptive audience, a veryorganic and organically
receptive audience about steadystate economics. And I guess
I'll mention it here. I ended upgetting $15,000 from -- I was
(21:48):
arrested with the 867demonstrators that got cornered
by the DC police, and had tospend night, you know, with
handcuffs, and hands behindtheir back. And so somebody
started up a class actionlawsuit. And that was quite a
surprising outcome from that.
Michael Bayliss (22:07):
You know, it's been just so interesting to see
in the last 10 years that peoplehave gone from, you know,
"you've got to have economicgrowth, jobs and growth" to it
being now mainstream, thatpeople are saying, "yeah, this
system has got to end." We can'tkeep growing like this. And I'd
(22:27):
like to think all of us haveplayed a part into shifting the
zeitgeist of this culturalthinking, at least among
everyday people, even when themainstream media, even when our
politicians, even when the bigbusiness lobbied conspired to
stifle this conversation.
Brian Czech (22:49):
Well put in, it's very encouraging. I hope
everybody listens to that andreplays it. Well, let's go back
to Australia, again, for a whileand talk about population, the
current population is about 26million, and the fertility rate
is around 1.7 children perwoman. So it seems it would be
(23:10):
very easy for people in much ofthe rest of the world, and as
well as for Australian growthpushers, to point to those
numbers, and the size of thecountry, and claim that any
limits to population growth areway off in the distance. What's
your ecological response tothat, Michael?
Michael Bayliss (23:29):
Yeah, well, Australia's population, at least
before COVID were growing by thesize of a new Canberra every
year. Now Canberra is the sizeof 300,000 people. So what set
the size of a new Tallahassee inFlorida every year, and that's a
lot, you know, our populationgrowth was 1.6%. And that
(23:52):
results in a doubling ofpopulation, you know, every 30
to 40 years, I think, at thatrate of growth. And this growth
isn't through fertility. Itisn't even through the refugee
and asylum seeker humanitarianprograms that our government is
notorious for scapegoating andvillainizing and putting in to
(24:15):
offshore detention. It's basedaround a skilled migration,
student migration, economicmigration program, that is a
population policy designedthrough narrow economic vested
interests, that benefit the few-- at the expense of many. So
(24:36):
that is the population policywere fighting against at SPA.
It's like hang on, you know, wedon't need population growth for
the so-called skills shortagesand aging demographic crises. So
they've all been debuggedanyway, by the way. Let's have a
lower population growth thatdoes prioritize, you know,
(24:59):
climate refugees, war refugees,and to have that as a policy.
Brian Czech (25:05):
I want to go back to one of your neighbors. We've
seen some encouraging behavior.
And you alluded to this earlierfrom the Prime Minister of New
Zealand Jacinda Ardern. She'sbeen critical of growth
economics and instead promotesthe concept of wellbeing without
a growing GDP. But AustralianPrime Ministers haven't been
known at all for that kind offorward thinking. In fact,
(25:27):
Australia is sometimes paintedas more of a foot-dragger on
global heating these days thanthe USA, which is saying
something! Why do you thinkthere seems to be such a
difference between neighborsthere? Is there some profound
cultural or politicaldistinction between the Kiwis
and Aussies?
Michael Bayliss (25:49):
Look, that's a million-dollar question that
we're trying to all figure outfor ourselves. Look, I think New
Zealand has always been a littlebit more progressive than
Australia. I know that's a bitof a blanket statement. But when
you do look at New Zealand'shistory, it seems to have had
much better relationship withthe First Nations people than
(26:14):
Australia has. Absolutely farfrom perfect still, colonization
playing out in a big way. But itjust seems like people from all
walks of life can coexisthistorically a little bit better
in New Zealand, and I think thatopens up for a better dialogue.
Look, I think New Zealand is asmaller country with a smaller
(26:38):
population. And I think theremight be an aspect when you
compare to other places that aredoing well on this front like
Costa Rica, that's a smallerland area with a smaller
population. When you have 25million people in a large
continent in Australia or, evenindeed, 350 million people in
(26:59):
the USA with one president. It'svery -- a lot more difficult to
get all opinions and views heardand come to consensus
agreements. I think the otherproblem with Australia is that,
most of us well, many of us aremum-and-dad investors. So we're
all caught up in the housing andproperty market to some way. So
(27:21):
although I think many of usreally don't like the
environmental positions, thatthe major parties, the Liberal
and Labour Parties take, thatmost of us feel compelled to
vote for the status quo. Becauseif they take a risk, they're
worried that their -- the valueof their houses might go down,
(27:43):
which apparently won't be anissue if you vote for the
Greens, because they want tobuild lots more houses. So I
don't know what everyone'scomplaining about. But look,
that's just me thinking off theblue, why New Zealand and
Australia might be different.
New Zealand has managed to havea female head of state with a
lot more grace than Australia.
(28:08):
So, I really think that, youknow, when we had Julie Gilad as
our first female head of stateand only female head of state in
Australia, the shock jockeys onTalkback Radio, were talking
about putting her in a bag offto sea and her dad dying of
shame. So, you know, Australiahas so much that we can learn
(28:29):
from New Zealand, I wish we'djust shut up and listen to them
to be honest. But that's justme.
Brian Czech (28:36):
Very insightful.
Well, along those lines, and Ialluded earlier wanting to come
back to the challenge of gettingthese messages out there to the
masses, I guess you'd say. Andit's been said that one of the
biggest challenges for economicreformists and social movements
is translating our ideas intocompelling stories -- stories
(28:56):
and narratives. And I knowyou've spoken about this, but
it's not easy. It's not like GDPis called Dracula -- well, okay,
maybe it is in a way -- but isthat the challenge developing
metaphors from pre-existingstories? Or do you have some
other approach to thisstorytelling business?
Michael Bayliss (29:20):
Yeah, I think people are largely guided by
stories and easily digestiblechunks, and the business
community, and the story ofEurocentric colonization has
been very good at selling thejobs and growth and myth that
(29:41):
we've all been beholden to andthe growth is good and the GDP
is good and if we keep growingthen wealth will trickle down.
Let's be very good atmaintaining this even when you
know the reality has for many ofus been a complete opposites.
And yes, we do need to have goodstories and better stories and
(30:03):
compelling stories. And I wouldhave said 10 years ago that my
biggest criticism with theDegrowth and Post-Growth and
Steady State movements mighthave been that there are a lot
of academic papers, lots ofabstracts and lots of, you know,
economic modeling that aren'tthat compelling to most people.
(30:25):
And look, that's been an issuewith Sustainable Population
Australia as well. So you know,and SPA were trying to deliver
very clear messaging, you know,let's rethink big Australia
inviting people to the table.
And a new video series called,"My Bulging City," and one of
our videos, "Endless GrowthParadigm," which put, you know,
all these concepts into like ananimation got over 10,000 views,
(30:49):
which by SPA standards is --means it went viral by anyone
else's standards means it didokay. And the podcast PGAP, and
dare I say Steady Stater aswell, are both part of that. I
think people like to hear otherpeople talk. You know, it's part
of the big tradition of yarningand storytelling that we've had
(31:13):
for most of our history, and Ithink podcasts is a way to
continue that yarning traditionand a fantastic way of selling
the post-growth, steady state,degrowth whatever message.
Brian Czech (31:30):
Absolutely. And along those lines, Michael, it's
been a lot of fun talking withyou today, and hearing some
yarns along the way. And, and Ilook forward to returning the
favor pretty soon on yourPost-Growth Podcast too, maybe
minus the singing part. Butthanks again, Michael, and talk
to you soon.
Michael Bayliss (31:50):
Thank you. It's been an utter pleasure. And
thank you for all that you do.
You are one of my heroes. And soit's always nice to talk to your
hero as well.
Brian Czech (31:58):
Oh, thanks so much.
And folks, that about wraps 'erup. We've been talking with
Michael Bayliss, host of thePost-Growth Australia Podcast
(32:20):
and the National CommunicationsManager at Sustainable
Population Australia. Michael'sexperience in everything from
podcast production to populationadvocacy, from music to mining,
shows you how you don't need toconfine yourself to one field if
you want to advance the steadystate. In fact, it's likely the
(32:40):
variety in Michael's life thathas allowed him to join and
engender such interestingconversations. I'm Brian Czech,
and you've been listening to theSteady Stater podcast. See you
next time!
The following transcript has been formatted
(00:00):
for both accuracy and clarity.
On occasion the text may differslightly from what was literally
spoken. If you wish to compareaudio to text each section has
timestamps that correspond tothe recording above. Please let
us know of any glaring errors.
Pat Choate (00:06):
From the Center for the Advancement of the Steady
State Economy, this is TheSteady Stater, a podcast
dedicated to discussing limitsto growth and the steady state
economy.
Brian Czech (00:17):
Welcome to the show! I'm your host, Brian
Czech, and our guest today isMichael Bayliss, National
Communications Manager atSustainable Population Australia
for SPA. SPA is a non-partisanadvocacy group that works toward
an ecologically sustainablehuman population. In kind of a
(00:38):
role reversal here, Michael isalso the host of the Post-Growth
Australia Podcast. He's beenbroadcasting thoughtful and
entertaining interviews andcommentary since the summer of
2020, basically in sync with TheSteady Stater. Michael is also a
musician, former social worker,and a former political
(00:59):
candidate. He's been tryingeverything to move us to a
sustainable post-growth world,and we like that kind of
ambition. Michael Bayliss,welcome to The Steady Stater!
Michael Bayliss (01:11):
Thank you so much on having me on, Brian. And
dare I say, I'm a huge fan ofCASSE. I'm a huge fan of you.
And as a fellow podcast host,I'm a massive fan of The Steady
Stater. So I'm sorry if that's abit of a fanboy start. But I
thought I'd better get that outof the way.
Brian Czech (01:32):
That's the kind of start we like, thanks so much.
Well, we know you're a steadystater, you're a CASSE
signatory, and your website andyour podcast are loaded with
great steady state stuff. I wantto ask you kind of -- a kind of
a personal question. But youknow -- semi-personal I guess --
you know, you left the city ofMelbourne not too long ago, and
(01:54):
move to Western Australia,closer to your home city of
Perth. I have to ask was globalheating a factor in that
decision?
Michael Bayliss (02:03):
In parts, although going to Western
Australia to escape heat is alittle bit of an oxymoron,
because I've moved to theextreme south of Western
Australia which has a verytemperate climate due to the
cold oceans. I think really, oneof the big reasons of leaving
(02:25):
Melbourne is I couldn't standthe thought of being in a huge
megalopolis growing at about100,000 people per year, and
with all the congestion andconcrete joys that brings with
it. I'm glad I have moved,because Melbourne is certainly
having quite a few problems atthe moment, quite a few
(02:48):
protests, and quite a fewdifferences of opinion. It seems
like Western Australia'senvironmental laws are now
better than Victoria's, andVictoria, where Melbourne is,
was supposed to be the left wingstates so, swings and
roundabouts, Brian.
Brian Czech (03:04):
Very interesting in it. Certainly the part about
getting out of that congestionresonates with all of us around
here, I suspect, Evidently themost listened-to episode of your
podcast -- and once again,that's the Post-Growth Australia
Podcast -- remains the firstepisode featuring Martin Tye.
Some of our listeners may recallthat Martin is a CASSE Chapter
(03:25):
Director. Namely, he's theAustralian Regional Communities
Chapter Director. Now, Michael,we know Martin can be
compelling, as anyone who getshis Twitter feed can attest, but
why do you think out of all theepisodes you've produced that
one seems to have struck such achord?
Michael Bayliss (03:43):
Well, I think the passage of time, plays a
little bit to do with it. It'sbeen around a lot longer than
the other episodes, and so itcollected listens over time. But
look, that aside, I suspect themessage of CASSE just rings loud
and clear. And Martin is also avery very effective
(04:06):
communicator. He's been verygood for me for a number of
years. He actually got me intoan interview where I interviewed
Ngunnawal, indigenous advocatein Canberra, on First Nation's
perspective on overdevelopment,and population growth in
Canberra, which has led me onthe path to trying to bring a
(04:28):
diversity of voices on the tableon this very divisive issue on
population. But Martin such agreat communicator, he taught me
into getting into Twitter andhow to be a better tweeter -- I
always thought Twitter was justa forum where social justice
warriors go to cancel it. So,you know Martin's posts and the
(04:51):
post-growth realm can sometimesbe criticized for being a bit
overly academic. But Martin hasa great fantastic ability to
make it so tangible and real forpeople. And I think ultimately,
that's why that episode did sowell.
Brian Czech (05:06):
Yeah, we love Martin. And you're right. He's a
great communicator. Those folksout there on Twitter, or if
you're not, you should get onit. You can find Martin Tye --
Tye is T-Y-E. Yeah, it's a greatTwitter feed. Now, Michael,
you've spent some time workingin Africa, including Kenya and
Uganda. And evidently, anotherof your favorite interviews was
with the Ugandan-born journalistFlorence Bondel. She spoke with
(05:30):
you about overpopulation, whichis a profoundly important issue
in Uganda. Uganda, having theyoungest population in the
world, something like 77% of thepopulace is under 25 years of
age. Now, Michael, you seem tomake a special effort to promote
the voices of women from thesefinancially strapped places.
(05:50):
Does that bring you into somesurprising -- or surprising
effect of I should say --networks? And what did what did
you learn from that interviewwith Florence Bondel?
Michael Bayliss (06:02):
One of my biggest motivators is there's a
lot of misconceptions when itcomes to population. There's a
lot of assumptions, particularlyfrom the left and very
well-meaning people that youknow, we're speaking on behalf
of the Global South and blamingwomen from the Global South, our
consumption habits. So there isactually very little dialogue
(06:27):
out there are people from theGlobal North, actually, you
know, talking to people from theGlobal South on this issue. So
interviews with Florence Blondelare very important. She's so
succinctly and passionately andviscerally, just cut down
through so many of thosemisconceptions and myths -- that
(06:48):
there is a demand forcontraception for family
planning by women in the globalsouth, that's just been unmet.
And what family planning andthese initiatives do is try to
close the gap between demand andsupply to give people in the
global south to same rights andaccess to family planning and
(07:10):
contraception that us in theGlobal North take for granted.
Brian Czech (07:15):
And sticking with Uganda for a moment. What about
Bobi Wine? I know he's a superpopular entertainer and
politician among the younger andmiddle age crowd in Uganda. And
he seems to have a network ofsmart steady state thinkers and
knows potential ministers. We'vemet some of them. And I'm
wondering how would that look ifa president from the heart of
(07:37):
Africa said to the rest of theworld, you know what, we reject
the Western World Bankglobalized push for economic
growth -- we don't care aboutGDP. We want our country in our
culture intact. And that's ourpriority moving forward. How
heroic would that be, Michael?
Michael Bayliss (07:58):
I mean, that would be an absolute dream come
true. I know there are somecountries in the world that are
already beacons for a degree ofchange, whether we're looking at
Costa Rica, or in CentralAmerica, or New Zealand,
exploring well-being models ofgrowth and moving away from the
(08:19):
GDP, to some extent Bhutan,Ecuador, before they voted in a
government that kind of reversesome of those trends. But I've
been very impressed by some ofthe movers and shakers in
Uganda. It's certainly far fromperfect, but, that would be
absolutely amazing. I'd love tosee that just somewhere in
(08:42):
Central Africa, sticking up thetwo fingers to the system or
bring it on.
Brian Czech (08:48):
Exactly. Your podcast is supported, of course
by Sustainable PopulationAustralia, and their vision is a
relationship between people andthe environment in which the
human population stays withinplanetary boundaries. It appears
they're quite alright with youemphasizing the link between
overpopulation and the overgrowneconomy. Unlike a lot of other
(09:12):
population organizations thatnever really connect the dots.
Were they always leaders thatway or did you bring that to the
table?
Michael Bayliss (09:21):
I have spoken to many people in Sustainable
Population Australia who haveall shared their perspective
that it's so much easier to talkabout population, if you talk
about it within the broadercontext of the post-growth,
degrowth, alternative economicchange models. And I think the
(09:43):
reason for that is people knowwhere they stand with you then.
You know, they know you whatyour ulterior motive right on
the table is about talking aboutpopulation, you know that it's
not some nefarious eugenicsmovement. It's like most people
agree on principle that youcan't grow infinitely on a
(10:05):
finite planet, and that theeconomies worldwide need to slow
down even go back a little bitin the cases of the Global
North. So, once you factor thatin, and once you talk about the
fact well, you can't have asteady state or degrowth economy
if your population isexponentially growing. So I
(10:28):
think within that context, it isso much easier to talk about.
It's also a lot easier todisagree with people, there have
been plenty of people on mypodcasts who've had a completely
different perspective onpopulation. But we agree on the
degrowth and post-growth. So, Ilike to think that I can
engineer a dialogue that showsanother way that you don't have
(10:50):
to be at loggerheads, you canhave differences of opinion, but
also find a middle ground.
Brian Czech (10:56):
That's a great answer. Meanwhile, Michael, at
your podcast, one of yourfavorite topics is housing.
You've noted that Australialoses 2 million hectares to
sprawl every year, (that's about5 million acres for American
listeners). You also talkedabout some proposals to build a
million new houses in Australia.
Now we looked into who istouting such a landscape breaker
(11:18):
-- we assumed it would be therealtors and developers and all
backed by the big banks. But wewere astonished to find that it
was The Green Party! They seemto blame property developers and
multiple home owners forunaffordable housing, but their
solution is to try and buildtheir way around the problem.
Michael Bayliss (11:41):
Yes, well, the problem is with many in the
environmental movements is thatthey think it's just a problem
of running the things we build.
So it's fine to carpet thecontinent with houses and
concrete over what was oncenatural land to build those a
billion new dwellings, so longas they all run on solar panels.
(12:04):
And, you know, I always arguewe've got one of the worst
species extinction rates, Ithink, at least in the OECD, and
I think comparable to manyglobal south countries in
Australia, in part due to ourridiculous urban sprawl
experiment. And from theperspective of a koala, it
doesn't matter how many solarpanels you have on a house, you
(12:27):
know, once your habitat has beenmowed, once there's the road
linking in between all yourfragmented habitats, and once
you've been run over byeveryone's SUVs that might be
run on, you know, theelectricity grid or something.
You know, you can have all therenewable energies in the world.
But once you've paved paradiseand built a parking lot -- thank
(12:48):
you for that, Joni Mitchell --Well, that's something you just
never going to get back. Sothat's one of the reasons why
I'm a huge critic of the housingmarket. It is the coalface -- I
say that, ironically -- ofAustralia's growth-based economy
in the last stages of late stagecapitalism.
Brian Czech (13:12):
Yeah, it's really a light in a pro-growth Australian
economy. One of your many titlesthat we didn't mention at the
top of the show today was miner!That's M-I-N-E-R. You labored in
a bauxite mine in your youngerdays; bauxite being the world's
main source of aluminum, andAustralia being the world's
(13:33):
biggest producer thereof. So howdoes your time in the mine
inform your post-growthmessaging, Michael?
Michael Bayliss (13:40):
Well, I like to argue that as a Western
Australian -- because I was bornand bred in Western Australia --
that there aren't many optionsfor an aspiring young person
other than to mine. I wasn'tdirectly mining, I was actually
in the ergonomics sector. And Iwas filming safety videos for
(14:03):
the mining speculators onsite inthe Gera forests, which is, you
know, the second degrees ofseparation from actually doing
the thing. So, you know, wipe myhands clean of responsibility --
no, not really. I talked to oneof the miners, and he was
driving me around and he said,what we're doing is just
(14:23):
absolutely reprehensible. Itbreaks my heart. He said, don't
tell anyone I'm telling theworld now. Though I won't give
his name. Look, I wrote a songfrom that. It was the first song
I ever wrote for my new -- forwhat was then my new band in
2009, Shock Octopus. It wascalled A Deer! Caught! In The
Headlights! And it's basedaround that existential dread.
(14:48):
There's indigenous people or theother species that we share the
continent with feel when theysee their homelands being
cleared for progress. The lyricsare quite vague, so it was a bit
weird live sets to see everyonedancing around to that song,
having the times of their livesand that became a live staple
(15:08):
favorite, when really, thecontext is really nothing to
celebrate.
Brian Czech (15:15):
Well, this will kind of come out of nowhere. But
how do you like to set us aprecedent right here on The
Steady Stater and sing us astanza from one of your Shock
Octopus favorites? Like maybe ADeer! Caught! In The Headlights?
Michael Bayliss (15:28):
Oh, dear, that's putting me on the spot.
Alright. Well, the chorus of thesong goes, "boom time make me
wanna holler, boom time drawn meto pallor, boring new holes
through your wood." So that'sone line from it.
Brian Czech (15:49):
I think that gives us a flavor of that song. And
yeah, we need I think we needmore of that. I'm really curious
how much luck have you had ingraining the masses with some
ecological economics via rockmusic?
Michael Bayliss (16:05):
Very interesting question. I think we
made, the band has made theecological stuff more in the
forefront of what we do. I thinkwhen we started, we're more
interested in just being a bandfirst. And you know, the message
seconds, but we've really pushedthe message more forward in the
last few years. And though Ican't say we, you know, set the
(16:28):
charts ablaze. We have had a lotof reviews. In fact, one
magazine got into contact withme and asked me to list my top
five favorite existential dreadenvironmental songs, which got
published. And it was reallygreat to be able to share that
(16:48):
because I got to share some ofmy other musicians and artists
that have really inspired thelyrical and the themes of my own
work during the years yeah.
Brian Czech (16:59):
We have to have an episode on this. Well, actually
we should play some of thesesongs and maybe even get your
band on live. Think that'sdoable?
Michael Bayliss (17:10):
Well, Nirvana could do unplugged, so why not?
Brian Czech (17:15):
Yeah, exactly.
Well, Michael, we got a numberof questions yet, but first, we
need to take a shortnon-commercial break with James
Lamont. Take it away, James!
James Lamont (17:31):
Hello, listeners.
We hope you're enjoying ourconversation with Michael
Bayliss of the Post-GrowthAustralia Podcast. Like The
Steady Stater, PGAP is availableon the streaming service
Spotify. If you have a Spotifyaccount, we encourage you to
locate the shows on the app orthe website and click the Follow
button. This will help boost TheSteady Stater and PGAP on the
platform. Both podcasts willbenefit and we'll grow the
(17:53):
audience for a post-growthsteady state economy. And now
back to the show!
Brian Czech (18:00):
Welcome back Steady Staters, we're talking with
Michael Bayliss of SustainablePopulation Australia. His newly
launched website ismichaelbayliss.org, a really
interesting collection ofMichael steady state efforts
over the years I heartilyrecommend it. Now, Michael, you
know, there been some protestsrecently by the group Blockade
(18:22):
Australia, that's in Newcastle,where the world's largest coal
port is located. And inresponse, the police minister of
New South Wales called theseprotests, how did he described
it... "nothing short of economicvandalism." Meanwhile, the
Deputy Prime Minister put itpretty bluntly said, "We've got
to make a buck." So thesegovernment growth men are dead
(18:44):
serious doer. Aren't theypushing for sentences of up to
25 years for these protesters?
Michael Bayliss (18:52):
It's incredible. I know of
Environment Center where acouple of my acquaintances
worked and lived nearby and areraided by the police. I believe
it was in relation to theseprotests. You know, I looked up
the Blockade a little bit morebefore the interview. And I see
(19:13):
there's a big protest in Sydneynext year in May. And if it's
possible to transverse aroundthe continent next year, I might
go to that. Because you know, Icome from the Derrick Jensen
School of Thinking, who's aauthor and a guest on PGAP's
second most popular episode.
That direct action is reallycritical. And the system will do
(19:35):
everything it can to try topreserve itself to appropriate
everything and twist people andthings and concepts around --
like you can't even have acommunity garden in a suburb
without raising the land valuesand gentrifying, you know, the
(19:56):
surrounding areas. So you know,late stage capitalism is so good
at keeping itself afloat nomatter what. I know many
commentators like Nicole Foss,Automatic Earth, predicted, you
know, there's going to be afinancial collapse 10 years ago.
There hasn't been -- because,you know, those in charge don't
play by the same rules ofcapitalism that they make the
(20:20):
rest of us have to live by. So Ithink changing the dialogue,
which we do at CASSE, which wedo at SPA, which I hopefully do
on the podcast, as well asdirect action, and sometimes
very visceral action. Well, youknow, direct action done with
compassion and love for thenatural world and for equality,
(20:40):
not just going in protesting forthe sake of protests, you know,
not just about anything, becausethere have been some protests
against the government. Forexample, vaccination, blah,
blah, blah, that I don't youknow, fully agree with. But when
it comes to environment, I thinkwe've got to be loud and mean,
which I hope I was, to somedegree, when I went on the
(21:01):
Extinction Rebellion week ofactions back in 2019.
Brian Czech (21:08):
Well, that all resonates with me. One thing
about direct action is you neverknow what's going to happen, and
what's going to come out ofthat. And a lot of times, it's
quite surprising. You know, Iused to take part in those World
Bank demonstrations back around2000. That was before 9/11.
After that, it became a lotharder to do anything like that
(21:28):
in the USA, but it's a great wayto network and communicate to a
very receptive audience, a veryorganic and organically
receptive audience about steadystate economics. And I guess
I'll mention it here. I ended upgetting $15,000 from -- I was
(21:48):
arrested with the 867demonstrators that got cornered
by the DC police, and had tospend night, you know, with
handcuffs, and hands behindtheir back. And so somebody
started up a class actionlawsuit. And that was quite a
surprising outcome from that.
Michael Bayliss (22:07):
You know, it's been just so interesting to see
in the last 10 years that peoplehave gone from, you know,
"you've got to have economicgrowth, jobs and growth" to it
being now mainstream, thatpeople are saying, "yeah, this
system has got to end." We can'tkeep growing like this. And I'd
(22:27):
like to think all of us haveplayed a part into shifting the
zeitgeist of this culturalthinking, at least among
everyday people, even when themainstream media, even when our
politicians, even when the bigbusiness lobbied conspired to
stifle this conversation.
Brian Czech (22:49):
Well put in, it's very encouraging. I hope
everybody listens to that andreplays it. Well, let's go back
to Australia, again, for a whileand talk about population, the
current population is about 26million, and the fertility rate
is around 1.7 children perwoman. So it seems it would be
(23:10):
very easy for people in much ofthe rest of the world, and as
well as for Australian growthpushers, to point to those
numbers, and the size of thecountry, and claim that any
limits to population growth areway off in the distance. What's
your ecological response tothat, Michael?
Michael Bayliss (23:29):
Yeah, well, Australia's population, at least
before COVID were growing by thesize of a new Canberra every
year. Now Canberra is the sizeof 300,000 people. So what set
the size of a new Tallahassee inFlorida every year, and that's a
lot, you know, our populationgrowth was 1.6%. And that
(23:52):
results in a doubling ofpopulation, you know, every 30
to 40 years, I think, at thatrate of growth. And this growth
isn't through fertility. Itisn't even through the refugee
and asylum seeker humanitarianprograms that our government is
notorious for scapegoating andvillainizing and putting in to
(24:15):
offshore detention. It's basedaround a skilled migration,
student migration, economicmigration program, that is a
population policy designedthrough narrow economic vested
interests, that benefit the few-- at the expense of many. So
(24:36):
that is the population policywere fighting against at SPA.
It's like hang on, you know, wedon't need population growth for
the so-called skills shortagesand aging demographic crises. So
they've all been debuggedanyway, by the way. Let's have a
lower population growth thatdoes prioritize, you know,
(24:59):
climate refugees, war refugees,and to have that as a policy.
Brian Czech (25:05):
I want to go back to one of your neighbors. We've
seen some encouraging behavior.
And you alluded to this earlierfrom the Prime Minister of New
Zealand Jacinda Ardern. She'sbeen critical of growth
economics and instead promotesthe concept of wellbeing without
a growing GDP. But AustralianPrime Ministers haven't been
known at all for that kind offorward thinking. In fact,
(25:27):
Australia is sometimes paintedas more of a foot-dragger on
global heating these days thanthe USA, which is saying
something! Why do you thinkthere seems to be such a
difference between neighborsthere? Is there some profound
cultural or politicaldistinction between the Kiwis
and Aussies?
Michael Bayliss (25:49):
Look, that's a million-dollar question that
we're trying to all figure outfor ourselves. Look, I think New
Zealand has always been a littlebit more progressive than
Australia. I know that's a bitof a blanket statement. But when
you do look at New Zealand'shistory, it seems to have had
much better relationship withthe First Nations people than
(26:14):
Australia has. Absolutely farfrom perfect still, colonization
playing out in a big way. But itjust seems like people from all
walks of life can coexisthistorically a little bit better
in New Zealand, and I think thatopens up for a better dialogue.
Look, I think New Zealand is asmaller country with a smaller
(26:38):
population. And I think theremight be an aspect when you
compare to other places that aredoing well on this front like
Costa Rica, that's a smallerland area with a smaller
population. When you have 25million people in a large
continent in Australia or, evenindeed, 350 million people in
(26:59):
the USA with one president. It'svery -- a lot more difficult to
get all opinions and views heardand come to consensus
agreements. I think the otherproblem with Australia is that,
most of us well, many of us aremum-and-dad investors. So we're
all caught up in the housing andproperty market to some way. So
(27:21):
although I think many of usreally don't like the
environmental positions, thatthe major parties, the Liberal
and Labour Parties take, thatmost of us feel compelled to
vote for the status quo. Becauseif they take a risk, they're
worried that their -- the valueof their houses might go down,
(27:43):
which apparently won't be anissue if you vote for the
Greens, because they want tobuild lots more houses. So I
don't know what everyone'scomplaining about. But look,
that's just me thinking off theblue, why New Zealand and
Australia might be different.
New Zealand has managed to havea female head of state with a
lot more grace than Australia.
(28:08):
So, I really think that, youknow, when we had Julie Gilad as
our first female head of stateand only female head of state in
Australia, the shock jockeys onTalkback Radio, were talking
about putting her in a bag offto sea and her dad dying of
shame. So, you know, Australiahas so much that we can learn
(28:29):
from New Zealand, I wish we'djust shut up and listen to them
to be honest. But that's justme.
Brian Czech (28:36):
Very insightful.
Well, along those lines, and Ialluded earlier wanting to come
back to the challenge of gettingthese messages out there to the
masses, I guess you'd say. Andit's been said that one of the
biggest challenges for economicreformists and social movements
is translating our ideas intocompelling stories -- stories
(28:56):
and narratives. And I knowyou've spoken about this, but
it's not easy. It's not like GDPis called Dracula -- well, okay,
maybe it is in a way -- but isthat the challenge developing
metaphors from pre-existingstories? Or do you have some
other approach to thisstorytelling business?
Michael Bayliss (29:20):
Yeah, I think people are largely guided by
stories and easily digestiblechunks, and the business
community, and the story ofEurocentric colonization has
been very good at selling thejobs and growth and myth that
(29:41):
we've all been beholden to andthe growth is good and the GDP
is good and if we keep growingthen wealth will trickle down.
Let's be very good atmaintaining this even when you
know the reality has for many ofus been a complete opposites.
And yes, we do need to have goodstories and better stories and
(30:03):
compelling stories. And I wouldhave said 10 years ago that my
biggest criticism with theDegrowth and Post-Growth and
Steady State movements mighthave been that there are a lot
of academic papers, lots ofabstracts and lots of, you know,
economic modeling that aren'tthat compelling to most people.
(30:25):
And look, that's been an issuewith Sustainable Population
Australia as well. So you know,and SPA were trying to deliver
very clear messaging, you know,let's rethink big Australia
inviting people to the table.
And a new video series called,"My Bulging City," and one of
our videos, "Endless GrowthParadigm," which put, you know,
all these concepts into like ananimation got over 10,000 views,
(30:49):
which by SPA standards is --means it went viral by anyone
else's standards means it didokay. And the podcast PGAP, and
dare I say Steady Stater aswell, are both part of that. I
think people like to hear otherpeople talk. You know, it's part
of the big tradition of yarningand storytelling that we've had
(31:13):
for most of our history, and Ithink podcasts is a way to
continue that yarning traditionand a fantastic way of selling
the post-growth, steady state,degrowth whatever message.
Brian Czech (31:30):
Absolutely. And along those lines, Michael, it's
been a lot of fun talking withyou today, and hearing some
yarns along the way. And, and Ilook forward to returning the
favor pretty soon on yourPost-Growth Podcast too, maybe
minus the singing part. Butthanks again, Michael, and talk
to you soon.
Michael Bayliss (31:50):
Thank you. It's been an utter pleasure. And
thank you for all that you do.
You are one of my heroes. And soit's always nice to talk to your
hero as well.
Brian Czech (31:58):
Oh, thanks so much.
And folks, that about wraps 'erup. We've been talking with
Michael Bayliss, host of thePost-Growth Australia Podcast
(32:20):
and the National CommunicationsManager at Sustainable
Population Australia. Michael'sexperience in everything from
podcast production to populationadvocacy, from music to mining,
shows you how you don't need toconfine yourself to one field if
you want to advance the steadystate. In fact, it's likely the
(32:40):
variety in Michael's life thathas allowed him to join and
engender such interestingconversations. I'm Brian Czech,
and you've been listening to theSteady Stater podcast. See you
next time!
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