January 31, 2022 • 24 mins
In the first part of a two-part special, Chris Matthews of MSNBC fame joins Brian to discuss the steady state economy. The CASSE signatory comments on his favorite episodes of Hardball, his recent book This Country: My Life in Politics and History, his insights as a speechwriter for Jimmy Carter, and the resource impacts of population growth. Tune in next Monday for part 2!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Pat Choate (00:02):
From the Center for the Advancement of the Steady
State Economy, this is TheSteady Stater, a podcast
dedicated to discussing limitsto growth and the steady state
economy.
Brian Czech (00:17):
Welcome to the show. I'm your host, Brian
Czech. And our guest today isChris Matthews. Yes, that Chris
Matthews of Hardball fame.
Hardball with Chris Matthews ranfor 23 seasons, 1997 to 2020,
primarily under the MSNBCbanner. Chris also hosted the
syndicated Chris Matthews Showfor about 10 of those years.
(00:38):
He's also a prolific author witha dozen titles on politics and
history. A Beltway insiderbefore he ever appeared on TV,
he served as a Capitol policeofficer, a congressional
staffer, a speechwriter forPresident Carter, and Chief of
Staff for the late "Tip"O'Neill, Speaker of the House
during the Reagan years. Chrisholds 34 honorary degrees from
(01:01):
various colleges anduniversities. Chris Matthews,
welcome to The Steady Stater.
Chris Matthews (01:10):
Thank you, Brian. It's great to be on.
Brian Czech (01:12):
Well, it's great to have you. You know, I want to
start by asking you what wasyour favorite and/or your most
memorable episode of Hardball?
Chris Matthews (01:21):
Oh, my God. You know, I don't know, I think it
might have been -- it might havebeen Donald Trump in the
campaign, the one he won, in'16. And it was about I asked
him if there should bepunishment for a woman who
chooses to have an abortion. Andhe sort of wiggled around for a
(01:42):
while -- he wasn't really readyfor that. And he said, yes,
there needs to be some kind ofpunishment. Well, of course,
that was his understanding ofwhat the pro-life movements
about -- his understanding. Andthen, you know, an hour or two
later, we got the call, wordsout he didn't mean that. He
pulled that back. But I think itshowed that he was a political
(02:03):
newcomer. And he knew some ofthe language, but he didn't know
the full meaning of the politicsor the value system involved.
And he gets -- he got caughtshowing he didn't know what he's
talking about in that case. Itcertainly was that he wasn't
consistent with the pro-lifeleaders.
Brian Czech (02:20):
Right.
Chris Matthews (02:20):
There's another time a guy, a young guy from
California, talk show host, whokept using the word
"Appeasement" with a capital A,of course. And I said, "Well,
what was" -- I just, you always,it was a hunch -- my hunch was
he didn't know what he wastalking about. And I said,
"Well, what was Appeasement?"
Brian Czech (02:42):
Oh, boy.
Chris Matthews (02:43):
He had no idea about -- he'd never heard of
Sudetenland. He didn't knowanything about Czechoslovakia,
or what happened. He didn't knowand what happened in '38, in
Munich, and all that stuff. Andhe was just -- he sort of
admitted it. And you know, Ihave to tell you, it's awful to
say, but it is fun when peoplejust don't know what they're
talking about and you catchthem. I have to tell you, that
(03:05):
may be a wicked joy, but it'sthere.
Brian Czech (03:08):
Right. I hope it doesn't happen today.
Chris Matthews (03:11):
Well, try me.
Brian Czech (03:13):
Yeah. Well, I understand you have another book
in the hopper. But just as ateaser -- keep our Steady
Staters whistles wetted --what's the title of this new
book?
Chris Matthews (03:23):
Well, let me just tell you the book that's
out there now that just cameout. This past June is This
Country - My Life in Politicsand History. And it's a memoir,
but it also talks about all thecoverage, the big stories I was
able to cover in person -- theBerlin Wall coming down, the
first-ever all-races electionsin South Africa, the Good Friday
(03:44):
talks up in Northern Ireland. Soit really talks about "you were
there" kind of thing, try toshare with the readers, what
it's like to be on thefrontlines covering these
stories. But it also has a lotof politics in it, all the
elections going back to -- myGod back to -- I guess, the
Eisenhower election in '52,which I remember as a kid. And
(04:05):
so it's really kind of a historybook from a first-person
perspective. I do have anotherone, but it's still in
negotiations with Simon andSchuster as of last night around
midnight, so I can't reveal ityet unless I get an email during
this conversation today.
Brian Czech (04:24):
Okay, well, that gives us a good reason to get
you back on later.
Chris Matthews (04:28):
Yeah. Well, I had some ideas that, you know, I
wanted to do a Churchill book,because he's my hero, and I --
but it's very hard to sell thattoday with some people, because
they think it's -- who knows --what their views are. But my
view is he was a great man, so.
Brian Czech (04:46):
Absolutely. Well, you know, you could regale us
with political stories left andright. So to speak.
Chris Matthews (04:52):
I could do that, and I will at your calling.
Brian Czech (04:55):
Okay. Well, right now we want your insights,
particularly with steady-statepolitics. And, perhaps, we could
start with President Carter.
It's our understanding thatCarter read limits to growth,
and then he commissioned thefollowup of sorts called Global
2000, and even invited the greatsteady stater E. F. Schumacher
to the White House. Clearly,Carter got it about the conflict
(05:18):
between economic growth andenvironmental protection. So
Chris, did he ever express aninterest in developing public
awareness about limits togrowth, and possibly even the
steady state economy as thealternative?
Chris Matthews (05:34):
You know, he did read the Club of Rome report --
apparently -- certainly talkedlike he did. And I read it at
the time. And I have to tell youthat it showed in, of course,
the gas lines, as a symptom, wewere waiting in line. I mean, I
remember waiting on the NewJersey Turnpike, and you had to
(05:55):
go on odd -- you had to go theodd days, depending on your
license number, what the lastdigit was, the last letter. You
had to have your tank almostempty before you could actually
get gas at the next gas station,and then you had to wait in
line. So people got the message,there was something going on
about resources. But, of course,the Club of Rome and the whole
(06:16):
idea of resources goes beyondenergy, and fossil fuel. It was
the idea that we're a limitednumber of -- limited number of
resources on this planet, agrowing number of people, and
there's going to have to be areckoning at some point. And I
think, Carter, to his credit, ordiscredit, was a very tight guy
about money, for example. He wasvery aware of costs and limits.
(06:40):
And if you -- I've just beenreading his diary, and I tell
you, he talks all about, wecan't afford this, we can't
afford that, his big fight withKennedy, Ted Kennedy, in their
primary fight in '80 was aboutthe fact that we can't do
everything we want to do rightnow in health care. So he had a
(07:01):
sort of a farmers and smallbusiness notion of costs and
income. And he knew that theyhad to match. And he was just by
nature a man who understoodlimits. And sometimes that came
across in money. And it cameacross in the heating, turning
the thermostat down, putting onyour sweater, recognizing costs,
(07:23):
in a big sense. So I think itwasn't hard for him to buy into
the idea that the planet has itslimits.
Brian Czech (07:30):
Yeah. Well, I don't suppose you wrote the so-called
Malaise speech. Did you?
Chris Matthews (07:34):
No, I did not. I would not -- I didn't touch
that. I will take credit for thekickoff speech in -- down South,
when he started the campaign onLabor Day of 1980. I did write
one on youth employment andeducation. I wrote a lot of the
political speech. I was on theplane last couple of weeks. And
I know, I dig the politics, butthat -- as you called, the
(07:55):
so-called Malaise speech -- wentover well. And then he fired --
he took the resignation of theentire cabinet in a couple of
days. And that's what hurt himpolitically, it looked like
chaos. You know, that was notintended.
Brian Czech (08:08):
Yeah. And well, I hate it when they call it the
Malaise speech too, because Ithought it was exactly the
leadership we needed then. Andeven more so the leadership we
desperately need now. Here's aquote from that speech, Carter
said, "every act of energyconservation, is more than just
common sense. I tell you, it isan act of patriotism." And he
(08:31):
also said, "we've learned thatpiling up material goods cannot
fill the emptiness of lives,which have no confidence or
purpose." End quotes, and I say"yes!"
Chris Matthews (08:42):
Yeah, I know.
And, that's Jimmy Carter. I --you know, that's not exactly a
rah-rah session, thecheerleading department. It
doesn't make people go giddy,like whereas Ronald Reagan
always spoke in terms ofexhilaration of the audience and
effectively so. He made peoplefeel good. He went to the Statue
of Liberty to begin his campaignthat very day -- labor day 1980.
(09:05):
And there he is with his shortsleeves, rolled-up sleeves,
acting like Mr. American cowboyand everything's great. And he
was really good at that. Youknow, morale officer, you might
call him.
Brian Czech (09:20):
Yeah, yeah.
Chris Matthews (09:20):
Jimmy Carter was coldly realistic. He was stoic
in his own life. You know, Idon't think he had a problem
explaining the turn down thethermostat, instead of just
buying a gas guzzler. And, youknow, the fact that Ronald
Reagan -- you know, I understoodthe romance of Reagan, I'm
certainly not a Republicanhater. I'm not. But I thought
(09:45):
that the first thing he didpractically when he moved into
the White House was take thesolar panels off the roof by
executive order. I mean, excuseme? Who were they hurting? You
know?
Brian Czech (09:57):
And then he appointed James Watt as
Secretary of the Interior.
Chris Matthews (10:01):
Well, he wanted just big car, lots, lots of gas
in the tank, low mileage,showoff. I mean, it was that
sort of -- I don't know what...
Brian Czech (10:14):
He was Trump before there was Trump, and -- you know
anything to spend more andstimulate the economy.
Chris Matthews (10:20):
Flaunting resource reduction, and --
what's the word -- dig morewells, pump more gas, and that's
the solution. Well, obviously,it's not the solution. But I
don't know how we look at these-- look at the population
growth. And one of the thingsyou study in economic
development is that because ofcolonization in the Third World,
(10:40):
developing world, you do reachcountries with health care. They
have health care they never hadbefore. So there's no Malthusian
reduction of population. Thepeople in the country like I've
served in the Peace Corps, theydo get some health care out --
the missionaries bring healthcare and some education,
[inaudible] religion, they teachpeople how to survive. But the
(11:03):
population growth is still huge.
I mean, you have eight kids, andthe look at the numbers coming
out of Africa and the resourcedepletion. One of the things I
noticed -- and this is prettyrudimentary, but I learned it
myself -- if you rely on asubsistence farm, and you grow
corn, maize, and you have tolive on that all year round, so
(11:24):
you have a crop comes in, in thefall, and you reap it, and you
know, hide it somewhere and youkeep it, somehow preserve it,
and you try to live all year onthat. Well, you have to have
heat to cook the maize, youcan't just eat raw corn. So you
have to have usually,unfortunately for the wife, the
wife in the family goes lookingfor wood. And she'll go for
(11:47):
miles, miles, and miles or moreeach day, further and further
away, looking for trees thathave fallen down, branches that
are available, or pull the treeup. In so, in Africa, you can
see the loss of trees of wood,for firewood -- it's gone. So
there's a case of wherepopulation grows, because of
(12:09):
health care. And the supply of abasic need -- wood --
disappears. So what happens? Tome, it's just tragedy. I don't
know how people make it. And I-- and this is just an
exponential reality. More peoplelooking for wood, wood going
further away, there no treesthat can possibly grow fast
(12:31):
enough with the trees that theChinese don't buy, I should say.
It's awesome. It's an awesomechallenge. And these people just
-- think of that image you haveof Africans -- usually of an
African woman with a bunch of, abundle of trees on her head,
carrying it home to cook themeal. It's something. So just
depletion of resources right infront of your face.
Brian Czech (12:54):
Yeah. You know, it's been great so far, Chris.
And next we want to talk somemore about some policy issues.
But first we need to take ashort non-commercial break with
James Lamont. Take it away,James.
James Lamont (13:11):
Hello, listeners, we hope you're enjoying the
show. Like many of our guests onThe Steady Stater, Chris
Matthews is a signatory to theCASSE position statement on
economic growth. He is one ofmany notable signatories among
our ranks, including esteemedscientists, economists and other
thinkers. You can see a list ofthese notables by going to our
website, steadystate.org, andclicking the Position button.
(13:32):
Then click the Signatures andEndorsements link in the
right-hand menu. You may see aname that proves useful in
convincing friends and familymembers to sign the position
themselves. And now back to theshow.
Brian Czech (13:44):
Welcome back steady staters. We're talking with
Chris Matthews of Hardball lore.
You know, Schumacher called forthe maximum of well-being with
the minimum of consumption. Canyou envision any of today's
politicians -- Americanpoliticians -- calling for the
maximum of well-being with theminimum of consumption?
Chris Matthews (14:03):
No! Well, I do think it this way -- and maybe
this is strange -- but when Ithink about the population,
human and animal, that wediscovered when we came to, the
Europeans came to America, wouldhave probably gone on forever,
you know.
Brian Czech (14:21):
Yeah, could have there were relatively steady
states among the tribal --
Chris Matthews (14:24):
You know, they get bear skins to get through
the winter with, used forclothing. They don't have any
industry, they don't burn up toomuch, they just have occasional
fire to survive with. They don'tglut themselves. And that
everything really looks the samemillions of years later, it's
the same water, the same trees,the same beauty of the land.
(14:45):
They fit. They fit. The NativeAmericans fit into the
environment. Isn't thatinteresting? I don't think we
fit into the environment.
Brian Czech (14:53):
No. Okay, now so if you were an outsider politician
concerned less with partypolitics or even electoral
success, than with advancing thesteady state economy, how would
you go about it?
Chris Matthews (15:06):
Well, certainly renewable energy. And I think,
you know, windmills don't botherme. I think they're a good use
of natural benefits. And I thinksolar panels are amazing. You
can actually reduce your -- youget in, you get yourself into
it, what d'ya call it, a"positive energy bill," where
(15:29):
you actually creating more --you're creating more energy than
you're using, and it's nothurting you. So I think looking
at just a simple thing of beingstate of the art, and using
technology to avoid using upresources is a smart, honest
thing to do.
Brian Czech (15:47):
That buy you some time, but then ultimately, you
know, you can't expect perpetualGDP growth, regardless of tech.
And if you did have it, youdestroy every other species on
the planet. So, how aboutadvancing the steady state
economy politically? Like, whatwould be a strategy there? Would
you try to win a local race andthen work your way up?
Chris Matthews (16:09):
Well, you know -- I'm not -- you know. I do
know that people learn torecycle. And it becomes a
positive habit. And it doesn'thappen everywhere. But where it
does happen, it has a beneficialadvantage in this term of
resource reuse. I think itbecomes an ethic, you don't
(16:30):
throw trash on the street --nobody throws trash, you know,
it's rare -- the kids I think --on Friday nights, throw beer
bottles into the side of theroad, I was wondering what that
night was like. But most peopledon't throw trash out the window
of their car, they don't. Peoplelearn certain things about that
-- they pick up the dog dooafter the dogs been by. They do
(16:50):
learn habits. And people learnhabits that they're sort of
proud of. And it's a statementof good sense and class, if you
will, that you know what you'redoing as a citizen. Look at
this. I've been to places nowwhere nobody smokes. I mean,
from a time where I grew up inthe 50s, where everybody's
father smoked -- I wouldn't --my father smoked, I thought it
(17:10):
was cool. When I thought aboutit, because everybody seemed to
smoke in the movies. You know, Ihave an occasional cigar, but I
gotta tell you, it's notsomething you walk into
somebody's house and light up acigarette. All this change
because of culture. You know,how many people walk into
somebody's house and light up acigarette? Oh, come on. There's
no ashtrays around. I mean, noteverywhere, not everywhere, but
(17:31):
big parts of the country, thebig city, certainly, in the
burbs. So habits change. And,you know, I didn't like it when
Mike Bloomberg said you can'thave a big Coke. But that was
his thing. But cigarettes andbars used to be part of the the
ambience, a smoky bar -- Ididn't mind it -- but the people
(17:51):
that work there did, apparently,the unions did. And because they
were getting sick -- I guess,potentially -- because they're
working all day in a smokyenvironment. Look, all I'm
telling you, Brian, you knowthis, is culture can change
habits.
Brian Czech (18:05):
Yes.
Chris Matthews (18:06):
So we're still gonna face the problem of
population and the size of thisplanet. And the age of -- what's
the age, what's the age? What'sthe average age of somebody on
this planet right now? 29? Orsomething? I don't know -- you
got a big challenge there. Youknow, I wish I'd give as much
thought to the Club of Romereport, as I did, I really did
(18:27):
at the time. I really thoughtabout it. And maybe I was more
revolutionary. I don't know.
Brian Czech (18:34):
Yeah, we're gonna come back to that. Because I
know you did pay attention tothat. And well, for now, there's
a lot of disappointment aboutthe Green Party of the United
States, because instead offocusing on, well, green issues,
they seem to just take whateversocial issue arises and put
themselves way off to the left,kind of like boxing themselves
(18:55):
into an ever-tinier corner. Butnow what if the Green Party said
"first things first" and focusedhard on the environment,
basically, just riding the fenceon all the other issues? How far
could they get on the ballot inthat approach?
Chris Matthews (19:09):
Well, I think you've seen that, you've seen
the deputies elected in Europe,and they can go very far. And
I'm not sure if they'retechnically involved in the new
German government, but they'regrowing in power, in probably
the healthiest political countryin Europe, Germany. In other
words, they know how to holdelections. They're clean about
it, and they lead Europe. TheGreen Party in the United States
(19:31):
has become a vehicle, as you aresuggesting, a vehicle for
somebody who wants to run to theleft of the Democratic Party,
whether it's Ralph Nader, isJean [sic] Stein. It just says
to me vote left, and it takes --you're right the social issues.
You don't think of them asprimarily interested in climate,
(19:51):
even, as a code word for ageneral concern about resource
depletion, and living on thisplanet like -- the last guy in
politics I can think it wasJerry Brown. He talked about
Spaceship Earth. Remember that?
And, and the fact we're livingon it, basically it contained
geography. And we better respectit.
Brian Czech (20:13):
Jerry Brown, you're talking about?
Chris Matthews (20:15):
Yeah. Jerry Brown. He, you know, he got, he
was called whatever. Moonbeam,Governor moonbeam, which
finally, Mike Royko of Chicago,gave him that nickname, took it
back in later years and saidthat wasn't fair. Because he was
talking about, you know, you andhe, Brian, could talk to Jerry
Brown, on the same level, he's avery big thinker. And he's a
(20:36):
speculative thinker, which israre in politics.
Brian Czech (20:39):
Right.
Chris Matthews (20:40):
He thinks beyond the next election.
Brian Czech (20:42):
Yeah.
Chris Matthews (20:42):
He always did.
And it hurt him.
Brian Czech (20:45):
Yeah, hurt him.
Yeah. The electoral cycledidn't...
Chris Matthews (20:47):
He did get elected to four terms as
Governor of California and endedup with a balanced budget
surplus, I believe, and he knewhow to tell people know you
can't have it. May be one of thefew Democrats that can actually
say, No, you can't have it. Wecan't have preschool, because we
don't have the money. Heactually said that. We don't
have the money, you know.
Brian Czech (21:05):
Well Chris, you're obviously an astute political
monitor. So I have sort of abarometric question here -- has
the European degrowth movementcome onto your radar yet?
Chris Matthews (21:16):
No. And I do -- I pay attention to the headlines
in that. And I noticed thatwhenever there's a decline in
population growth, there's a bigdanger sign that goes up in the
headline. I mean have younoticed?
Brian Czech (21:29):
Yeah, yeah.
Chris Matthews (21:30):
That's the big danger sign. Not that there's
too much population growth, butthere's a depopulation growth.
And that becomes a horror signin Russia, and now in China, and
I guess, in Europe itself,Western Europe. And I don't know
this is -- there's a reckoningthat I don't think it's reached
the voters table yet. But it'son yours.
Brian Czech (21:50):
Yes. All right, Chris, I want to ask you, which
of your occupations have givenyou the most influence in
American politics?
Chris Matthews (22:00):
Well, let me start with the personal feeling
about them. Because then I canget to the big picture. I loved
writing a column. I did it twicea week for 15 years. I've been
-- for the San Francisco Papers,and I loved doing it. I loved
being able to go anywhere in theworld, and write from where I'm
at. I loved it. I had completefreedom. And I never got edited
(22:21):
except for facts. And I lovedthat. I loved being on with
President Carter writing hisspeeches. There's nothing as
much fun if you're pretty young-- I was in my early 30s -- to
knowing that you're typing onyour Selectric 2 typewriter,
something that the President ofthe United States is gonna say
possibly on the next stop on theplane. And you're taking off at
45 degrees. Those Air Forceplanes just go right up in the
(22:43):
air. And you're typing at adiagonal angle and you're
writing -- I loved it. I lovedit. I loved covering political
conventions like, in New YorkCity, we were on Broadway right
out there. And I was with HowardFineman, and a guy jumped over
the fence and tried to knock meover, because he was
demonstrating against AbuGhraib, our mistreatment of
prisoners over in Iraq. And it'ssomething else. I enjoyed being
(23:10):
with Bishop Tutu when he got tovote the first time, at age 62.
I loved talking to the EastGermans and asking them what it
was like to have freedom andwhat freedom meant to them. I
loved talking to the Protestantsand the Catholics up in Northern
Ireland and realizing what thatfight was about, to some extent.
I've been very lucky. I wouldlike -- Tip O'Neill, you
mentioned, I was his top guy.
I'd be with him every morning,when he's leader of the
(23:33):
opposition, basically, but alsocutting wonderful deals with
Ronald Reagan. I mean, they knewhow to deal together. I loved
all that. So I'm kinda happy.
The Capitol Police time, Iactually enjoyed it, it was a
patronage job that I took so Icould work in the office during
the early part of the day. SoI'd work in the morning, early
afternoon, and then go put on mypolice uniform and my .38
(23:54):
special pistol at 3 in theafternoon, and work to 11. So I
was working all around theclock. It was my first job
coming back from Africa in thePeace Corps. So I wanted to -- I
wanted to get a job, and thatwas the one job that was offered
me. So I did like being acapital policeman, and I felt a
lot for those guys, and perhapsto some extent with them, when
(24:15):
they went through the hell ofJanuary 6 this year, and I can
-- I know their patriotism. Anda lot of them were probably guys
who this time voted for Trump,or both times. But they were
very patriotic about the --certainly very patriotic about
that building and protecting it.
So you know, I've been great.
I've been I've been lucky. I'mnot great -- I'm lucky to be
having these jobs.
Brian Czech (24:35):
Oh, yeah. And well, you did great at them. And I
think that's why you had so manygood ones. You kept doing good
at the previous one, so.
From the Center for the Advancement of the Steady
State Economy, this is TheSteady Stater, a podcast
dedicated to discussing limitsto growth and the steady state
economy.
Brian Czech (00:17):
Welcome to the show. I'm your host, Brian
Czech. And our guest today isChris Matthews. Yes, that Chris
Matthews of Hardball fame.
Hardball with Chris Matthews ranfor 23 seasons, 1997 to 2020,
primarily under the MSNBCbanner. Chris also hosted the
syndicated Chris Matthews Showfor about 10 of those years.
(00:38):
He's also a prolific author witha dozen titles on politics and
history. A Beltway insiderbefore he ever appeared on TV,
he served as a Capitol policeofficer, a congressional
staffer, a speechwriter forPresident Carter, and Chief of
Staff for the late "Tip"O'Neill, Speaker of the House
during the Reagan years. Chrisholds 34 honorary degrees from
(01:01):
various colleges anduniversities. Chris Matthews,
welcome to The Steady Stater.
Chris Matthews (01:10):
Thank you, Brian. It's great to be on.
Brian Czech (01:12):
Well, it's great to have you. You know, I want to
start by asking you what wasyour favorite and/or your most
memorable episode of Hardball?
Chris Matthews (01:21):
Oh, my God. You know, I don't know, I think it
might have been -- it might havebeen Donald Trump in the
campaign, the one he won, in'16. And it was about I asked
him if there should bepunishment for a woman who
chooses to have an abortion. Andhe sort of wiggled around for a
(01:42):
while -- he wasn't really readyfor that. And he said, yes,
there needs to be some kind ofpunishment. Well, of course,
that was his understanding ofwhat the pro-life movements
about -- his understanding. Andthen, you know, an hour or two
later, we got the call, wordsout he didn't mean that. He
pulled that back. But I think itshowed that he was a political
(02:03):
newcomer. And he knew some ofthe language, but he didn't know
the full meaning of the politicsor the value system involved.
And he gets -- he got caughtshowing he didn't know what he's
talking about in that case. Itcertainly was that he wasn't
consistent with the pro-lifeleaders.
Brian Czech (02:20):
Right.
Chris Matthews (02:20):
There's another time a guy, a young guy from
California, talk show host, whokept using the word
"Appeasement" with a capital A,of course. And I said, "Well,
what was" -- I just, you always,it was a hunch -- my hunch was
he didn't know what he wastalking about. And I said,
"Well, what was Appeasement?"
Brian Czech (02:42):
Oh, boy.
Chris Matthews (02:43):
He had no idea about -- he'd never heard of
Sudetenland. He didn't knowanything about Czechoslovakia,
or what happened. He didn't knowand what happened in '38, in
Munich, and all that stuff. Andhe was just -- he sort of
admitted it. And you know, Ihave to tell you, it's awful to
say, but it is fun when peoplejust don't know what they're
talking about and you catchthem. I have to tell you, that
(03:05):
may be a wicked joy, but it'sthere.
Brian Czech (03:08):
Right. I hope it doesn't happen today.
Chris Matthews (03:11):
Well, try me.
Brian Czech (03:13):
Yeah. Well, I understand you have another book
in the hopper. But just as ateaser -- keep our Steady
Staters whistles wetted --what's the title of this new
book?
Chris Matthews (03:23):
Well, let me just tell you the book that's
out there now that just cameout. This past June is This
Country - My Life in Politicsand History. And it's a memoir,
but it also talks about all thecoverage, the big stories I was
able to cover in person -- theBerlin Wall coming down, the
first-ever all-races electionsin South Africa, the Good Friday
(03:44):
talks up in Northern Ireland. Soit really talks about "you were
there" kind of thing, try toshare with the readers, what
it's like to be on thefrontlines covering these
stories. But it also has a lotof politics in it, all the
elections going back to -- myGod back to -- I guess, the
Eisenhower election in '52,which I remember as a kid. And
(04:05):
so it's really kind of a historybook from a first-person
perspective. I do have anotherone, but it's still in
negotiations with Simon andSchuster as of last night around
midnight, so I can't reveal ityet unless I get an email during
this conversation today.
Brian Czech (04:24):
Okay, well, that gives us a good reason to get
you back on later.
Chris Matthews (04:28):
Yeah. Well, I had some ideas that, you know, I
wanted to do a Churchill book,because he's my hero, and I --
but it's very hard to sell thattoday with some people, because
they think it's -- who knows --what their views are. But my
view is he was a great man, so.
Brian Czech (04:46):
Absolutely. Well, you know, you could regale us
with political stories left andright. So to speak.
Chris Matthews (04:52):
I could do that, and I will at your calling.
Brian Czech (04:55):
Okay. Well, right now we want your insights,
particularly with steady-statepolitics. And, perhaps, we could
start with President Carter.
It's our understanding thatCarter read limits to growth,
and then he commissioned thefollowup of sorts called Global
2000, and even invited the greatsteady stater E. F. Schumacher
to the White House. Clearly,Carter got it about the conflict
(05:18):
between economic growth andenvironmental protection. So
Chris, did he ever express aninterest in developing public
awareness about limits togrowth, and possibly even the
steady state economy as thealternative?
Chris Matthews (05:34):
You know, he did read the Club of Rome report --
apparently -- certainly talkedlike he did. And I read it at
the time. And I have to tell youthat it showed in, of course,
the gas lines, as a symptom, wewere waiting in line. I mean, I
remember waiting on the NewJersey Turnpike, and you had to
(05:55):
go on odd -- you had to go theodd days, depending on your
license number, what the lastdigit was, the last letter. You
had to have your tank almostempty before you could actually
get gas at the next gas station,and then you had to wait in
line. So people got the message,there was something going on
about resources. But, of course,the Club of Rome and the whole
(06:16):
idea of resources goes beyondenergy, and fossil fuel. It was
the idea that we're a limitednumber of -- limited number of
resources on this planet, agrowing number of people, and
there's going to have to be areckoning at some point. And I
think, Carter, to his credit, ordiscredit, was a very tight guy
about money, for example. He wasvery aware of costs and limits.
(06:40):
And if you -- I've just beenreading his diary, and I tell
you, he talks all about, wecan't afford this, we can't
afford that, his big fight withKennedy, Ted Kennedy, in their
primary fight in '80 was aboutthe fact that we can't do
everything we want to do rightnow in health care. So he had a
(07:01):
sort of a farmers and smallbusiness notion of costs and
income. And he knew that theyhad to match. And he was just by
nature a man who understoodlimits. And sometimes that came
across in money. And it cameacross in the heating, turning
the thermostat down, putting onyour sweater, recognizing costs,
(07:23):
in a big sense. So I think itwasn't hard for him to buy into
the idea that the planet has itslimits.
Brian Czech (07:30):
Yeah. Well, I don't suppose you wrote the so-called
Malaise speech. Did you?
Chris Matthews (07:34):
No, I did not. I would not -- I didn't touch
that. I will take credit for thekickoff speech in -- down South,
when he started the campaign onLabor Day of 1980. I did write
one on youth employment andeducation. I wrote a lot of the
political speech. I was on theplane last couple of weeks. And
I know, I dig the politics, butthat -- as you called, the
(07:55):
so-called Malaise speech -- wentover well. And then he fired --
he took the resignation of theentire cabinet in a couple of
days. And that's what hurt himpolitically, it looked like
chaos. You know, that was notintended.
Brian Czech (08:08):
Yeah. And well, I hate it when they call it the
Malaise speech too, because Ithought it was exactly the
leadership we needed then. Andeven more so the leadership we
desperately need now. Here's aquote from that speech, Carter
said, "every act of energyconservation, is more than just
common sense. I tell you, it isan act of patriotism." And he
(08:31):
also said, "we've learned thatpiling up material goods cannot
fill the emptiness of lives,which have no confidence or
purpose." End quotes, and I say"yes!"
Chris Matthews (08:42):
Yeah, I know.
And, that's Jimmy Carter. I --you know, that's not exactly a
rah-rah session, thecheerleading department. It
doesn't make people go giddy,like whereas Ronald Reagan
always spoke in terms ofexhilaration of the audience and
effectively so. He made peoplefeel good. He went to the Statue
of Liberty to begin his campaignthat very day -- labor day 1980.
(09:05):
And there he is with his shortsleeves, rolled-up sleeves,
acting like Mr. American cowboyand everything's great. And he
was really good at that. Youknow, morale officer, you might
call him.
Brian Czech (09:20):
Yeah, yeah.
Chris Matthews (09:20):
Jimmy Carter was coldly realistic. He was stoic
in his own life. You know, Idon't think he had a problem
explaining the turn down thethermostat, instead of just
buying a gas guzzler. And, youknow, the fact that Ronald
Reagan -- you know, I understoodthe romance of Reagan, I'm
certainly not a Republicanhater. I'm not. But I thought
(09:45):
that the first thing he didpractically when he moved into
the White House was take thesolar panels off the roof by
executive order. I mean, excuseme? Who were they hurting? You
know?
Brian Czech (09:57):
And then he appointed James Watt as
Secretary of the Interior.
Chris Matthews (10:01):
Well, he wanted just big car, lots, lots of gas
in the tank, low mileage,showoff. I mean, it was that
sort of -- I don't know what...
Brian Czech (10:14):
He was Trump before there was Trump, and -- you know
anything to spend more andstimulate the economy.
Chris Matthews (10:20):
Flaunting resource reduction, and --
what's the word -- dig morewells, pump more gas, and that's
the solution. Well, obviously,it's not the solution. But I
don't know how we look at these-- look at the population
growth. And one of the thingsyou study in economic
development is that because ofcolonization in the Third World,
(10:40):
developing world, you do reachcountries with health care. They
have health care they never hadbefore. So there's no Malthusian
reduction of population. Thepeople in the country like I've
served in the Peace Corps, theydo get some health care out --
the missionaries bring healthcare and some education,
[inaudible] religion, they teachpeople how to survive. But the
(11:03):
population growth is still huge.
I mean, you have eight kids, andthe look at the numbers coming
out of Africa and the resourcedepletion. One of the things I
noticed -- and this is prettyrudimentary, but I learned it
myself -- if you rely on asubsistence farm, and you grow
corn, maize, and you have tolive on that all year round, so
(11:24):
you have a crop comes in, in thefall, and you reap it, and you
know, hide it somewhere and youkeep it, somehow preserve it,
and you try to live all year onthat. Well, you have to have
heat to cook the maize, youcan't just eat raw corn. So you
have to have usually,unfortunately for the wife, the
wife in the family goes lookingfor wood. And she'll go for
(11:47):
miles, miles, and miles or moreeach day, further and further
away, looking for trees thathave fallen down, branches that
are available, or pull the treeup. In so, in Africa, you can
see the loss of trees of wood,for firewood -- it's gone. So
there's a case of wherepopulation grows, because of
(12:09):
health care. And the supply of abasic need -- wood --
disappears. So what happens? Tome, it's just tragedy. I don't
know how people make it. And I-- and this is just an
exponential reality. More peoplelooking for wood, wood going
further away, there no treesthat can possibly grow fast
(12:31):
enough with the trees that theChinese don't buy, I should say.
It's awesome. It's an awesomechallenge. And these people just
-- think of that image you haveof Africans -- usually of an
African woman with a bunch of, abundle of trees on her head,
carrying it home to cook themeal. It's something. So just
depletion of resources right infront of your face.
Brian Czech (12:54):
Yeah. You know, it's been great so far, Chris.
And next we want to talk somemore about some policy issues.
But first we need to take ashort non-commercial break with
James Lamont. Take it away,James.
James Lamont (13:11):
Hello, listeners, we hope you're enjoying the
show. Like many of our guests onThe Steady Stater, Chris
Matthews is a signatory to theCASSE position statement on
economic growth. He is one ofmany notable signatories among
our ranks, including esteemedscientists, economists and other
thinkers. You can see a list ofthese notables by going to our
website, steadystate.org, andclicking the Position button.
(13:32):
Then click the Signatures andEndorsements link in the
right-hand menu. You may see aname that proves useful in
convincing friends and familymembers to sign the position
themselves. And now back to theshow.
Brian Czech (13:44):
Welcome back steady staters. We're talking with
Chris Matthews of Hardball lore.
You know, Schumacher called forthe maximum of well-being with
the minimum of consumption. Canyou envision any of today's
politicians -- Americanpoliticians -- calling for the
maximum of well-being with theminimum of consumption?
Chris Matthews (14:03):
No! Well, I do think it this way -- and maybe
this is strange -- but when Ithink about the population,
human and animal, that wediscovered when we came to, the
Europeans came to America, wouldhave probably gone on forever,
you know.
Brian Czech (14:21):
Yeah, could have there were relatively steady
states among the tribal --
Chris Matthews (14:24):
You know, they get bear skins to get through
the winter with, used forclothing. They don't have any
industry, they don't burn up toomuch, they just have occasional
fire to survive with. They don'tglut themselves. And that
everything really looks the samemillions of years later, it's
the same water, the same trees,the same beauty of the land.
(14:45):
They fit. They fit. The NativeAmericans fit into the
environment. Isn't thatinteresting? I don't think we
fit into the environment.
Brian Czech (14:53):
No. Okay, now so if you were an outsider politician
concerned less with partypolitics or even electoral
success, than with advancing thesteady state economy, how would
you go about it?
Chris Matthews (15:06):
Well, certainly renewable energy. And I think,
you know, windmills don't botherme. I think they're a good use
of natural benefits. And I thinksolar panels are amazing. You
can actually reduce your -- youget in, you get yourself into
it, what d'ya call it, a"positive energy bill," where
(15:29):
you actually creating more --you're creating more energy than
you're using, and it's nothurting you. So I think looking
at just a simple thing of beingstate of the art, and using
technology to avoid using upresources is a smart, honest
thing to do.
Brian Czech (15:47):
That buy you some time, but then ultimately, you
know, you can't expect perpetualGDP growth, regardless of tech.
And if you did have it, youdestroy every other species on
the planet. So, how aboutadvancing the steady state
economy politically? Like, whatwould be a strategy there? Would
you try to win a local race andthen work your way up?
Chris Matthews (16:09):
Well, you know -- I'm not -- you know. I do
know that people learn torecycle. And it becomes a
positive habit. And it doesn'thappen everywhere. But where it
does happen, it has a beneficialadvantage in this term of
resource reuse. I think itbecomes an ethic, you don't
(16:30):
throw trash on the street --nobody throws trash, you know,
it's rare -- the kids I think --on Friday nights, throw beer
bottles into the side of theroad, I was wondering what that
night was like. But most peopledon't throw trash out the window
of their car, they don't. Peoplelearn certain things about that
-- they pick up the dog dooafter the dogs been by. They do
(16:50):
learn habits. And people learnhabits that they're sort of
proud of. And it's a statementof good sense and class, if you
will, that you know what you'redoing as a citizen. Look at
this. I've been to places nowwhere nobody smokes. I mean,
from a time where I grew up inthe 50s, where everybody's
father smoked -- I wouldn't --my father smoked, I thought it
(17:10):
was cool. When I thought aboutit, because everybody seemed to
smoke in the movies. You know, Ihave an occasional cigar, but I
gotta tell you, it's notsomething you walk into
somebody's house and light up acigarette. All this change
because of culture. You know,how many people walk into
somebody's house and light up acigarette? Oh, come on. There's
no ashtrays around. I mean, noteverywhere, not everywhere, but
(17:31):
big parts of the country, thebig city, certainly, in the
burbs. So habits change. And,you know, I didn't like it when
Mike Bloomberg said you can'thave a big Coke. But that was
his thing. But cigarettes andbars used to be part of the the
ambience, a smoky bar -- Ididn't mind it -- but the people
(17:51):
that work there did, apparently,the unions did. And because they
were getting sick -- I guess,potentially -- because they're
working all day in a smokyenvironment. Look, all I'm
telling you, Brian, you knowthis, is culture can change
habits.
Brian Czech (18:05):
Yes.
Chris Matthews (18:06):
So we're still gonna face the problem of
population and the size of thisplanet. And the age of -- what's
the age, what's the age? What'sthe average age of somebody on
this planet right now? 29? Orsomething? I don't know -- you
got a big challenge there. Youknow, I wish I'd give as much
thought to the Club of Romereport, as I did, I really did
(18:27):
at the time. I really thoughtabout it. And maybe I was more
revolutionary. I don't know.
Brian Czech (18:34):
Yeah, we're gonna come back to that. Because I
know you did pay attention tothat. And well, for now, there's
a lot of disappointment aboutthe Green Party of the United
States, because instead offocusing on, well, green issues,
they seem to just take whateversocial issue arises and put
themselves way off to the left,kind of like boxing themselves
(18:55):
into an ever-tinier corner. Butnow what if the Green Party said
"first things first" and focusedhard on the environment,
basically, just riding the fenceon all the other issues? How far
could they get on the ballot inthat approach?
Chris Matthews (19:09):
Well, I think you've seen that, you've seen
the deputies elected in Europe,and they can go very far. And
I'm not sure if they'retechnically involved in the new
German government, but they'regrowing in power, in probably
the healthiest political countryin Europe, Germany. In other
words, they know how to holdelections. They're clean about
it, and they lead Europe. TheGreen Party in the United States
(19:31):
has become a vehicle, as you aresuggesting, a vehicle for
somebody who wants to run to theleft of the Democratic Party,
whether it's Ralph Nader, isJean [sic] Stein. It just says
to me vote left, and it takes --you're right the social issues.
You don't think of them asprimarily interested in climate,
(19:51):
even, as a code word for ageneral concern about resource
depletion, and living on thisplanet like -- the last guy in
politics I can think it wasJerry Brown. He talked about
Spaceship Earth. Remember that?
And, and the fact we're livingon it, basically it contained
geography. And we better respectit.
Brian Czech (20:13):
Jerry Brown, you're talking about?
Chris Matthews (20:15):
Yeah. Jerry Brown. He, you know, he got, he
was called whatever. Moonbeam,Governor moonbeam, which
finally, Mike Royko of Chicago,gave him that nickname, took it
back in later years and saidthat wasn't fair. Because he was
talking about, you know, you andhe, Brian, could talk to Jerry
Brown, on the same level, he's avery big thinker. And he's a
(20:36):
speculative thinker, which israre in politics.
Brian Czech (20:39):
Right.
Chris Matthews (20:40):
He thinks beyond the next election.
Brian Czech (20:42):
Yeah.
Chris Matthews (20:42):
He always did.
And it hurt him.
Brian Czech (20:45):
Yeah, hurt him.
Yeah. The electoral cycledidn't...
Chris Matthews (20:47):
He did get elected to four terms as
Governor of California and endedup with a balanced budget
surplus, I believe, and he knewhow to tell people know you
can't have it. May be one of thefew Democrats that can actually
say, No, you can't have it. Wecan't have preschool, because we
don't have the money. Heactually said that. We don't
have the money, you know.
Brian Czech (21:05):
Well Chris, you're obviously an astute political
monitor. So I have sort of abarometric question here -- has
the European degrowth movementcome onto your radar yet?
Chris Matthews (21:16):
No. And I do -- I pay attention to the headlines
in that. And I noticed thatwhenever there's a decline in
population growth, there's a bigdanger sign that goes up in the
headline. I mean have younoticed?
Brian Czech (21:29):
Yeah, yeah.
Chris Matthews (21:30):
That's the big danger sign. Not that there's
too much population growth, butthere's a depopulation growth.
And that becomes a horror signin Russia, and now in China, and
I guess, in Europe itself,Western Europe. And I don't know
this is -- there's a reckoningthat I don't think it's reached
the voters table yet. But it'son yours.
Brian Czech (21:50):
Yes. All right, Chris, I want to ask you, which
of your occupations have givenyou the most influence in
American politics?
Chris Matthews (22:00):
Well, let me start with the personal feeling
about them. Because then I canget to the big picture. I loved
writing a column. I did it twicea week for 15 years. I've been
-- for the San Francisco Papers,and I loved doing it. I loved
being able to go anywhere in theworld, and write from where I'm
at. I loved it. I had completefreedom. And I never got edited
(22:21):
except for facts. And I lovedthat. I loved being on with
President Carter writing hisspeeches. There's nothing as
much fun if you're pretty young-- I was in my early 30s -- to
knowing that you're typing onyour Selectric 2 typewriter,
something that the President ofthe United States is gonna say
possibly on the next stop on theplane. And you're taking off at
45 degrees. Those Air Forceplanes just go right up in the
(22:43):
air. And you're typing at adiagonal angle and you're
writing -- I loved it. I lovedit. I loved covering political
conventions like, in New YorkCity, we were on Broadway right
out there. And I was with HowardFineman, and a guy jumped over
the fence and tried to knock meover, because he was
demonstrating against AbuGhraib, our mistreatment of
prisoners over in Iraq. And it'ssomething else. I enjoyed being
(23:10):
with Bishop Tutu when he got tovote the first time, at age 62.
I loved talking to the EastGermans and asking them what it
was like to have freedom andwhat freedom meant to them. I
loved talking to the Protestantsand the Catholics up in Northern
Ireland and realizing what thatfight was about, to some extent.
I've been very lucky. I wouldlike -- Tip O'Neill, you
mentioned, I was his top guy.
I'd be with him every morning,when he's leader of the
(23:33):
opposition, basically, but alsocutting wonderful deals with
Ronald Reagan. I mean, they knewhow to deal together. I loved
all that. So I'm kinda happy.
The Capitol Police time, Iactually enjoyed it, it was a
patronage job that I took so Icould work in the office during
the early part of the day. SoI'd work in the morning, early
afternoon, and then go put on mypolice uniform and my .38
(23:54):
special pistol at 3 in theafternoon, and work to 11. So I
was working all around theclock. It was my first job
coming back from Africa in thePeace Corps. So I wanted to -- I
wanted to get a job, and thatwas the one job that was offered
me. So I did like being acapital policeman, and I felt a
lot for those guys, and perhapsto some extent with them, when
(24:15):
they went through the hell ofJanuary 6 this year, and I can
-- I know their patriotism. Anda lot of them were probably guys
who this time voted for Trump,or both times. But they were
very patriotic about the --certainly very patriotic about
that building and protecting it.
So you know, I've been great.
I've been I've been lucky. I'mnot great -- I'm lucky to be
having these jobs.
Brian Czech (24:35):
Oh, yeah. And well, you did great at them. And I
think that's why you had so manygood ones. You kept doing good
at the previous one, so.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.