February 7, 2022 • 27 mins
In the second part of our conversation with Chris Matthews, the former Hardball host ponders the mixed legacies of Al Gore, George W. Bush, Ronald Reagan, and FDR. He also shares his opinions on where to look for political support for the steady state economy, and which former president came closest to steady statesmanship.
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Episode Transcript
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Pat Choate (00:02):
From the Center for the Advancement of the Steady
State Economy, this is TheSteady Stater, a podcast
dedicated to discussing limitsto growth and the steady state
economy.
Brian Czech (00:17):
Welcome to the show. I'm your host, Brian
Czech. And our guest today isChris Matthews. Yes, that Chris
Matthews of Hardball fame.
Chris Matthews (00:27):
Can I bring up something -- you're pushing me
to think beyond my usual dailyworries. You know, I think no
matter what we say about school-- we may not like it when we're
kids -- we do remember what welearned in school, most of it,
we really do. You know, that'show we learned to write, I mean,
certainly how to read and learnhow to read, and we still can
(00:48):
read. We learned a lot of thingsin school, we learned basic
arithmetic, which we use all thetime, we use addition all the
time, we put things together, wehave to add up costs and things,
and bills and everything. We douse most of what we learned in
school. But one thing we stoppedteaching ourselves was
geography, the idea ofresources, and water and
(01:10):
navigation, and which -- andeven coastline, so you want an
uneven coastline, so you canhave harbors -- all the basic
notions of what's life like onthis planet and how we make it
each day. And it's all aboutresources, agriculture, mining,
it's everything. It's humanlife. But it's about limits.
(01:30):
It's about what people have andwhat they need. And what's
there. And where do we live?
Nobody teaches geographyanymore. I'm sorry. It's not
certainly not a high-leveleducation goal. People don't
know anything, they can't showyou a map. They don't -- they
couldn't give you a map of theUnited States. AI Franken could
actually draw a map. He's one ofthe few senators could draw a
map of the United States, it wasa gimmick. We don't know where
(01:52):
we're at. We don't know wherethe water comes from, where our
food, we don't know anything. Wedon't understand where the
turkey comes from. We don't knowwhere the spam comes from. I
mean, it's a reality ofignorance. And I think that
maybe the first set of goals isteach people when they're in
their teens or younger, whatworld they live in, you know, in
(02:14):
terms of resource. Because theydon't -- we think theoretically,
now, we think technologically,we think about, we all want to
be Steve Jobs. I don't, but kidsall want to be Steve Jobs. Why?
Because you can make money outof it, it's state of the art.
It's all about stuff, you don'teven have to meet anybody, could
live on technology like we'reusing right now. You don't have
(02:35):
to even bump into anybody, it's-- live in your basement. But
it's a whole world that theylive in now and enculturated. So
they want it they think --there's a culture of simply
being, you know, virtual. Sowe've gone from not studying
geography to not actually livingin a space with other people
where we're almost likeLilliputians from -- you know --
from Dean Swift, you know, Ithink there is a danger in
(02:57):
becoming schizoid, not connectedto your physical reality. Maybe
that's too deep. But it's Ithink people don't think about
anything in terms of watersupply -- out in California,
they're aware of water. I'lltell you, that was an issue.
They didn't know that. And theyfight over it state by state --
the Colorado River, how it getsdiverted, etc, etc. They're
(03:20):
aware of it, of life on thisplanet in California, because
the fires -- we know what'sgoing on in California. And when
I worked for the San FranciscoExaminer, we had a guy, one of
the editors who just absolutelybrilliant guy at that, because
that's what he studied his wholelife as a journalist -- water
and the limits of it.
Interesting, huh? And you don'tget that in a big city. You
(03:43):
don't get that kind ofeducation, that there's only so
much -- and that's what themovie Chinatown was all about,
water, remember?
Brian Czech (03:50):
Oh, that's right.
Chris Matthews (03:52):
Yeah.
Brian Czech (03:53):
Goes way back, those water issues. Yeah.
Chris Matthews (03:56):
Yeah.
Brian Czech (03:56):
It's coming to come into a real head, so to speak.
Well, I want to go back to aquestion about...
Chris Matthews (04:03):
Well it is gonna be an issue, you know, this
fracking thing in Pennsylvania-- you watch that issue in the
next -- this election -- I keepforgetting it's this year, we
have all these elections forgovernor and senator. There's
gonna be a lot of talk aboutresources in Pennsylvania and
whether a state that needs jobsshould resort to fracking. And I
think the politics would say, ohyeah, so you're not going to see
(04:23):
much environmental generalpushback on that. It's just --
it's like guns in Pennsylvaniaor the pro-life issue. It's one
of those things where you touchit, it's a third rail. And so
politicians don't want to beknown as, you know, Johnny
Appleseed here. They don't wantto be that person, like people
like Robert Redford out inCalifornia can be ostracized for
(04:46):
being environmentalist. You knowthat history. I mean, it's real.
Brian Czech (04:50):
Little bit.
Chris Matthews (04:51):
You're not the good guy if you're an
environmentalist.
Brian Czech (04:53):
Yeah, so ironic.
Chris Matthews (04:55):
They want the mining.
Brian Czech (04:56):
Well, we're gonna continue being bad guys I guess
here at CASSE...
Chris Matthews (05:00):
That's the role you've chosen and fair enough
and good for you. Because thecounter-education isn't getting
there and a geographicalknowledge of who we are and what
we live off of. And, you know, Ido think about this friend of
mines in solid waste. And hetook me on a tour of
Pennsylvania, solid waste sites.
Big mounds of earth covering upGod knows what, and what is our
(05:20):
environmental concern, the heatlevel, that gets generated
spontaneously in those piles oftrash and garbage, and what goes
on under that has to berelieved, through spouts that
come out. Lets the heat out ofetc. And they got to protect the
water supply all nearby if theycan. But think about those big
mounds, when are we going to gointo them someday -- I won't be
(05:43):
around, I don't think -- butsomeday we're going to be mining
those solid waste dumps with allthat stuff in there. With all
the metal, and other stuff thatyou have to, you know, maybe
there'll be a technology toreuse all that again. I know
that -- we all know that'scoming. Anybody doesn't think
about it's crazy, we're gonnahave to go back over everything
(06:03):
we've ever used and use itagain, you know, can't strip
mine the Earth, can't strip mineeverything.
Brian Czech (06:10):
You know that if you want to put it this way, the
apple of our reforming eye isthat Full Employment and
Balanced Growth Act of 1978, orFEBGA. FEBGA remains the central
economic policy of the USA, andit mandates the government onto
the path of GDP growth. So, youknow, it's as antiquated in the
(06:30):
21st century as FDR's originalEmployment Act was by 1978. So
we're working on thesecomprehensive amendments, Chris.
And first of all, would you haveany rules of thumb for how we
should go about building supporton the hill? By the way, we
would call it -- we would renameit the Full and Sustainable
Employment Act. And we'd get theUSA off that growth path.
Chris Matthews (06:55):
Oh, God, I guess you have to do this. Your
natural allies would not be theextractive industry states.
You're not going to do well inUtah. And although you have
religious concern in Utah forthe Earth, with the Mormon
people, probably in the suburbs,the more educated people
(07:17):
book-learned people, who arewilling to go to meetings and
get involved in a greenmovement. And that would be
probably -- I don't know, Idon't want to judge this -- but
I would say, people that readthe newspapers in the big cities
and would be open to aconversation, and even a
speculation about where we'reheaded, cannot and probably are
(07:41):
not facing really closeelections, where the economy is
shaky. You know, you just got tobe logical about it. The people
that can get on television, andbring this topic up. I know this
was very -- well, you rememberthis, in the mid 70s, in the
burbs? This is something youwould talk about.
Brian Czech (08:01):
Yeah.
Chris Matthews (08:02):
And mainly but not only Democrats, mainly but
not only. And, you know, youcould have a conversation like
that with Leach from Iowa. Someof the ones around Philadelphia,
the suburbs. You could get theseconversations going on radio and
television. Gaylord Nelson, wellhe headed the The World Wildlife
(08:26):
Association. What a great guy hewas, what a character. I mean.
Brian Czech (08:29):
Yeah.
Chris Matthews (08:30):
He knew how to enjoy life, and he was a
thoughtful guy and a greatpersonality, and he got wiped
away by this Wisconsinconservativism, that's came
back. You know, Ron Johnson, Imean, look at the difference --
Ron Johnson and Gaylord Nelson,you cannot think of two
different people politically.
Brian Czech (08:48):
My gosh, yeah.
Chris Matthews (08:49):
I know, gosh, but it's this conservativism, it
says simply cut taxes, stoppeople at the border and
whatever else. It's powerful.
And some part of it is truepolitically and socially. It's
thuggish politics, but it worksin a time where people are
(09:09):
afraid. Right now. I mean, youmentioned this at the beginning
of our conversation, this is atime that sort of bangs back and
forth between being scary andboring.
Brian Czech (09:21):
You're right.
Chris Matthews (09:22):
It's boring.
There's something in ourpolitics that lacks the spice
that got me fascinated bypolitics back in the 50s with
Kennedy and Nixon, I mean, talkabout two political
heavyweights, and Eisenhower wasalmost Godly, and everything
was, you know, the legacy ofRoosevelt and Truman -- it was
just big time. It wasexhilarating to have a political
(09:44):
conversation. Adlai Stevensoneven, I mean, he lost but what a
voice...
Brian Czech (09:50):
He worked for Muskie too, right?
Chris Matthews (09:54):
And I -- and Muskie was a hit. Well, he was a
light heavyweight, and he wassomething else, a true believer
in clean water, clean air. Hepassed those bills, Brian, he
did.
Brian Czech (10:05):
Okay, yeah.
Chris Matthews (10:06):
One man, clean air and clean water, and people
like Phil Hart of Michigan.
These were statesmen of theplanet. They were looking out
for the big stuff. And they hadpeople like [inaduible] behind
him and people like that.
Brian Czech (10:19):
Yeah, we were...
Chris Matthews (10:20):
And they were Westerners like Frank Church. I
mean, Westerners were all thosePro-Environmental Westerners,
who came out of the plainsstate, the Rockies, were all
wiped out in the 70s, and thesagebrush rebellion. Just all
wiped off. All the conservativepeople -- I mean,
environmentally concerned people-- all are wiped out. My first
boss, Frank Moss, you know, allthose people who had
(10:44):
environmental concerns, and werebuilding vast national parks and
preserving the land from miningand exploitation, so that you
can have beauty out thereforever. And all that stuff gets
stopped. And they're stilltrying to peel it back, you
know, out into places like Utah.
They're trying to peel back thepreserved land. But that was
something the guys staked theircareers on. And Nelson was one
(11:05):
of them. And my god, FrankChurch, and McGovern and all
those people. They're all gone.
Brian Czech (11:13):
Yeah, a lot has changed, and there was a
particular change that I'minterested in vis-a-vis yourself
and the parties, but first weneed to take a short
non-commercial break with JamesLamont. Take it away, James.
James Lamont (11:31):
Hello, listeners, we hope you're enjoying the
show. Like many of our guests onThe Steady Stater, Chris
Matthews is a signatory to theCASSE position statement on
economic growth. He's one of themany notable signatories among
our ranks, including esteemedscientists, economists and other
thinkers. You can see a list ofthese notables by going to our
website, steadystate.org, andclicking the Position button.
(11:52):
Then click the Signatures andEndorsements link in the right
hand menu. You may see a namethat proves useful in convincing
friends and family members tosign the position themselves.
And now back to the show.
Brian Czech (12:04):
Welcome back steady staters. We're talking with
Chris Matthews of Hardball lore.
I saw a quote from you, from oneof your Hardball episodes where
you said "I'm more conservativethan people think I am. I voted
for George W. in 2000." And I'mreally curious, were you really
voting for George W. or was itmore against Gore? Or had you
just had enough of Clintoniangovernment by then?
Chris Matthews (12:28):
Well, I thought, I believed W. Bush when he said
I want to see some humility inour foreign policy. Humility.
Humility! That was what he ranon, stop bossing people around.
No more. None of thishawkishness. Let's have a fight
over it. Let's put our troopsout there. I thought he meant
it. I don't know what happened,I guess 9/11, Dick Cheney, the
(12:51):
Neo-cons in the op-ed pages ofthe newspapers, hawkish, all
they want to do is go to warwith the Muslim world. I said,
stop it, stop it. Gore, God, hecould have gone either
direction. He could have beenthe biggest hawk in the world,
which he was when he ran in '88,superhawk, backed -- people like
Ed Koch like him, people likethat. I go look: I don't know
which Al Gore -- I voted againstthe hawkish Al Gore. And I voted
(13:14):
for the humble guy W. And I waswrong because W. became the
biggest Hawk in the world. Ithink he feels guilty about it
now, he's now painting. I don'tthink he has any more
conversations with Dick Cheneyanymore. I think he'd -- my
hunch, just a hunch -- he knowshe got suckered into that war
with Iraq. And because Cheneyand Scooter Libby, that whole
(13:35):
crowd wanted to do it. I made amistake. But I wouldn't say that
is the evidence of myconservativism. My
conservativism is fiscal inspending. It's more like Jimmy
Carter. I'm with Carter on thatstuff. And Carter understood. He
talked about the environment andenergy and all that stuff, and
we have to limit it. And hedidn't get any points for it
(13:58):
politically, but my God, hebrought peace between Egypt and
Israel. They haven't been --they had three wars since '48,
he got rid of all the wars. Andif Egypt wasn't going to fight
Israel, no Arab country wasgoing to find Israel. Israel's
got a danger of course fromIran, but the whole Arab world
is basically, you know,pacified, basically because this
Southern Baptist sat down with,you know, Begin and Sadat and
(14:23):
got them to cut a deal torecognize Israel's existence
forever. So I mean, he gothardly any credit for that. He
told the Panamanians you canhave the canal back under the
condition it stays open, itstays working, and we can use it
when we do it. And we get firstdibs. I mean, it's worked. It
has been up and down and thecanal still works. It's bigger
than ever. And Carter, inventedin the seven endless war with
(14:46):
the Panamanians which would havewould have been another sore
spot for us. He said no, let'sdo it. The first days in office:
he takes the oath of office, upat the Capitol and before he
leaves the Capitol, he does twothings. He thanks Gerald Ford
for hailing the country andthose guys became best friends
forever for the end -- tillGerald Ford's death. They really
(15:06):
did. I've been reading thediary. And then he sat down and
with his pen, pardoned all warresistors from the Vietnam War,
every single one that had beenliving up in Canada and
everybody else was totallyexonerated by him. In one act,
he said, we're not going toargue about this Vietnam war
anymore. I'm doing this thing. Imean, he did things like that
(15:28):
with complete courage. And Ithink someday he'll be
recognized for it. But I don'tknow it's gonna take a while.
The country wants a tough guypresident. They want a strong
man. At least half the countrydoes. And that's Trump. And
Carter didn't look like a strongman bossing people around in the
schoolyard. And they didn'tthink that was what they wanted.
So we paid...
Brian Czech (15:48):
And then after he fired the cabinet, that half
didn't want him either...
Chris Matthews (15:51):
Well, he -- he did. He fired them all. And then
he got rid of the ones he wantedto get rid of. Brock Adams and
Califano and the Secretary ofTreasury.
Brian Czech (16:01):
Okay, well, I want to go back to Gore for just a
moment. And..
Chris Matthews (16:04):
Yeah, Gore's hard to read, because Gore is
very good at -- obviously, hismovie was great, An Inconvenient
Truth. And of course, he playeda powerful role with that for a
while, maybe permanently, tosome extent. I don't know about
Al Gore. He was a --
Brian Czech (16:21):
I got a little story I wanna run by it...
Chris Matthews (16:24):
...difficult to read. I'm sorry.
Brian Czech (16:25):
Yeah. So yeah, he was ostensibly great on the
environment, or was his bookEarth in the Balance, you know,
way before. Yet I feel like heled the masses astray with that
old win-win rhetoric that "thereis no conflict between growing
the economy and protecting theenvironment..."
Chris Matthews (16:42):
That's politics.
That's politics.
Brian Czech (16:44):
Yeah, well, you know, I saw him utter that. I
call it the cynical Shibboleth.
It was on the Washington Mall,right on Earth Day 2000 with
thousands of people listening toevery word. And you know what?
An utter pall came over thatcrowd. And right then, I thought
he could lose this thing becauseof this one lie. And then sure
enough, seven months later, thatelection came down to those few
(17:06):
hanging chads in Florida.
Chris Matthews (17:10):
Well, that's another conversation. The
Supreme Court jumped in on thatunder equal protection, and it
was the argument that you can'thave one county counting the
chad is okay, and the other onecounting it, it's not okay. And
that was the basis of the fivefour remedy that threw it out,
threw out, stop the voting --stop the county rather -- and
(17:32):
but that's another subject.
Brian Czech (17:34):
It is. But for me, I just -- I wonder if he hadn't
bought into that -- what Ialways also called the
Clintonian rhetoric, the win-winrhetoric that you can have your
cake and eat it too on theeconomy and environment. Gore
might have won because he mayhave been seen as a truth
teller, in a time, you know,where people wanted to see that,
(17:58):
but I don't know. We'll neverknow, I guess.
Chris Matthews (18:00):
No, I think this is something for you to think
about, because I thought aboutthis before, a lot. There is an
American romance. The notionthat you can avoid the tough
trade-offs that you can have avictory through -- what's the
right word -- audacity. And ifyou think about how football was
(18:25):
played, our national sport -- nomatter what anybody says --
football, it's a rough game,it's a Midwestern thing. And
you're basically two sidespounding each other at the line,
and lots of injuries, kind ofboring, eventually, because it's
just a few yards and a cloud ofdust, and somebody wins a game
by three to nothing or somethingon a kick. And it's boring. So
(18:48):
what do we do? We found aromance, the forward pass, Knute
Rockne and all that. And all ofa sudden, oh, you didn't have to
fight it out on the line. Youdon't have the trade-off of
blood and guts. You could throwit. You could have a quarterback
who could throw the ball 30yards, and you can win the game
big time. We're fighting theKorean War, and it's trade offs
are a horrendous fight. We'redown at Pusan practically trying
to fight for our lives and allof a sudden, MacArthur does the
(19:11):
Inchon landing, he cuts in fromthe left, and we win that we
basically throw the whole battleback up to the Yalu. I mean, so
we're used to that kind ofincursion-- we don't have to
trade it off back and forth. Wecan go around and win this.
Churchill tried to do it withthe Dardanelles in World War I,
get out of the trenches andgoing through Turkey. Well, we
always want to find that endrun. That is the American thing,
(19:32):
or the British thing. And Ithink that the romance is that
you can have the technology jobs-- President Biden to his credit
does talk like this we -- cancreate a lot of jobs and try to
save resources. I don't knowwhat the trade off is, it's like
Reagan would say, I can cuttaxes and bring in more revenue,
well it didn't happen. It wasgreat romance. Oh, we don't have
(19:53):
to trade between cutting taxesand cutting programs. Oh no! We
can just keep the same programs,the same spending level, but
we'll cut taxes and there'll bemore revenue coming in. By the
way, he's talking about aparticular line, tax elasticity
-- it's in economics I studiedit, it does happen. In a certain
limited notion, you do get morerevenue. If you cut your prices,
for example, in this market -- Itaught it in Africa -- you might
(20:15):
get more sales, and that wouldmake more revenue than you had
before. It's always the end run,Brian.
Brian Czech (20:21):
Right.
Chris Matthews (20:22):
It's an emotion that is so powerful, that -- the
end run, that you can avoid theconflict, the trade off, because
if you do the forward pass, theInchon landing or anything, if
we can avoid it, that's better.
So politicians say, you don'thave to trade, you don't have to
choose; I can get youeverything. Roosevelt used to
kid about his opponents and say-- his opponents, he was so good
at sarcasm, FDR, if you read him-- I guess you can't hear him
(20:45):
right now, but he would say, theRepublicans come along and say,
"I can give you everything theDemocrats do, and it won't cost
you anything." It was a greatupper-class accent of Roosevelt.
And he would say it like thatwas so rich sarcasm," and it
won't cost you anything."
Brian Czech (21:05):
That's great.
Chris Matthews (21:06):
And I think that's what you're talking
about. I think there is a notionof the end run of the forward
pass, the Inchon landing. Ithink there really is a notion
you don't have to choose,because choosing hurts. Nobody
wants to choose.
Brian Czech (21:18):
Well, Chris, you ran for the House of
Representatives some yearsback...
Chris Matthews (21:21):
When I was 28.
Brian Czech (21:22):
...recall? Well, there was some speculation that
you might run for the Senate in2010. Right?
Chris Matthews (21:28):
Well, there was speculation, because I was
thinking about it. Well I hadbeen away, I went to college in
Worcester, Massachusetts, HolyCross, and I -- then I went to
grad school at Chapel Hill,North Carolina. I loved Chapel
Hill. And I went in the PeaceCorps in Africa for two years,
and then I came back, and Iworked in politics in
Washington. I hadn't really beenhome since I was 17 -- living at
(21:50):
home, except that race forCongress in the primary. And I,
I thought about it a lot becausea lot of people knew me, I had a
Philadelphia accent -- don'tknow if you recognize it, but
everybody up there knew it. Italked like I was from Philly.
And I had the backing of thepolitical machine in Philly, I
had the governor's support. Alot, a lot of quiet support, and
(22:10):
Mayor Scranton. A lot of peoplesaid they were for me, and they
were going to be for me. But Ijust figured I'd never been up
there. I didn't have a campaignorganization, I couldn't make a
phone call, in this regardwithout somebody outing me and
saying, I did it. So I couldn'treally keep the job of covering
the politics of the country, andat the same time planning to
enter it. I had to quit my job,and start from scratch in
(22:32):
raising the money and all thatstuff. And I just didn't want to
make the leap. I was close toit. But it's -- I respect people
that have the nerve to --usually they're lawyers who have
something to fall back on. Theyknow they can go back to their
firm or-- but it's a big risk torun because you can -- most
(22:53):
people lose. I mean, there'susually a number of candidates
for the same job and only onewins. And that's every cycle.
Every time there's an election,a whole bunch of people run, and
one wins, and all the otherslose. That's why I have no
problem with pensions forCongresspeople, if they managed
to get elected, because therisks of losing is overwhelming.
But you know what? I would haveliked to be a Senator, whether I
(23:15):
would like the job of being asenator is a totally different
question. As Gene McCarthy, oneof my heroes once said, it's a
job and I don't want it. That'swhen he quit. He didn't run
again in '70. It's a job ofserving 10 or 20 million people
or whatever the size of yourstate and they call up, you
better work for them. If the guyhas a sewer project, this mayor,
(23:36):
he wants to talk about it withyou all week. That's your job.
You're really a servant, ifyou're a good Senator of the
people of your state. And that'sa hell of a calling. It's almost
like being a priest. I mean, youhave to really believe in it to
do it. And it's very generous ifyou're a really great Senator --
it is a generous vocation. Itreally is if you think about it.
Anybody who wants your help inthat state deserves your help --
(23:59):
deserves it.
Brian Czech (24:01):
Okay. Well one last question. And maybe it's a good
segue, it's good from that. Whatwould you say is our greatest
source of hope for a democratictransition to a steady state
economy?
Chris Matthews (24:14):
Well, it's not totally politically correct --
but what the heck -- TeddyRoosevelt, I think you have to
have someone who exemplifies theAmerican character and takes it
into a new frontier -- if youwill -- and be willing to say,
we're a country that isreligious, to a large extent,
(24:36):
and realistic, to a greatextent, that we can adapt, that
we can recognize the future fast-- better than any other country
in the world. We can recognizethe future better than anybody
else. We're gonna charge intoit. And we're gonna be the ones
that knows what this reality is.
And we're gonna face it, as wedid when we first came here --
the Europeans came here -- andwe're gonna be smart. And we're
(24:57):
going to do what has to be donewith a kind of a romance, if you
will. And that takes a TeddyRoosevelt on horseback
basically, to say, we're goingto do this thing. And it's going
to be tough. And it's going tohurt a little. But we have to do
it. And that's how we got to themoon. And that's what we went
where people hadn't gone before.
(25:21):
And part of it is understanding-- I think we won't be the only
country to do it though. I dolook to the Germans now -- I
know it's odd, given the historyof the 20th century -- but I do
love the grown-ups of the world.
And politics is ironic. A trueconservative is not somebody
says No to the people who arepoor, or left out. A true
conservative is someone whokeeps the country together, who
(25:44):
holds the country together, aconservative holds people
together, they keep them fromwanting to be revolutionaries. A
true leader on the environment,on growth issues, has to be
somebody who can hold ustogether, and get us to see
things in a set consensus. And Ithink -- look, I think Teddy
Roosevelt belongs up on MountRushmore, because of that, and
(26:05):
because if you have -- if you goto any national park in the
world, you're benefiting fromhim. And the glory of this
country is our geography. Imean, it really is. No other
country in the world has ourgeography. And we got to keep
it. And as I said, learninggeography might be the first
step to keeping it.
Brian Czech (26:28):
Well, it's been a fascinating episode, and I'm
sure all the steady staters outthere will concur. Thanks so
much for being on the show,Chris. And I really hope you can
join us--
Chris Matthews (26:36):
Thanks for having the show.
Brian Czech (26:38):
Okay.
Chris Matthews (26:39):
Take care.
Brian Czech (26:55):
Well, folks, that about wraps 'er up. We've been
talking with Chris Matthews, aleading commentator in American
politics for the past threedecades. As a prolific broadcast
journalist, newspaperjournalist, and book author,
he's probably done as much toframe the debates as any
politician -- we need him tokeep framing too. He gets it
(27:17):
about limits to growth, and heunderstands the political
challenges we face as steadystaters. We need more Chris
Matthews and more hardball.
Hardball with the CATOInstitutes and the Chicago
Schools and the dark moneyed,perpetual growthers who are
driving the USA and theinternational community to an
agonizing breach of limits togrowth. I'm Brian Czech and
(27:40):
you've been listening to TheSteady Stater podcast. See you
next time.
From the Center for the Advancement of the Steady
State Economy, this is TheSteady Stater, a podcast
dedicated to discussing limitsto growth and the steady state
economy.
Brian Czech (00:17):
Welcome to the show. I'm your host, Brian
Czech. And our guest today isChris Matthews. Yes, that Chris
Matthews of Hardball fame.
Chris Matthews (00:27):
Can I bring up something -- you're pushing me
to think beyond my usual dailyworries. You know, I think no
matter what we say about school-- we may not like it when we're
kids -- we do remember what welearned in school, most of it,
we really do. You know, that'show we learned to write, I mean,
certainly how to read and learnhow to read, and we still can
(00:48):
read. We learned a lot of thingsin school, we learned basic
arithmetic, which we use all thetime, we use addition all the
time, we put things together, wehave to add up costs and things,
and bills and everything. We douse most of what we learned in
school. But one thing we stoppedteaching ourselves was
geography, the idea ofresources, and water and
(01:10):
navigation, and which -- andeven coastline, so you want an
uneven coastline, so you canhave harbors -- all the basic
notions of what's life like onthis planet and how we make it
each day. And it's all aboutresources, agriculture, mining,
it's everything. It's humanlife. But it's about limits.
(01:30):
It's about what people have andwhat they need. And what's
there. And where do we live?
Nobody teaches geographyanymore. I'm sorry. It's not
certainly not a high-leveleducation goal. People don't
know anything, they can't showyou a map. They don't -- they
couldn't give you a map of theUnited States. AI Franken could
actually draw a map. He's one ofthe few senators could draw a
map of the United States, it wasa gimmick. We don't know where
(01:52):
we're at. We don't know wherethe water comes from, where our
food, we don't know anything. Wedon't understand where the
turkey comes from. We don't knowwhere the spam comes from. I
mean, it's a reality ofignorance. And I think that
maybe the first set of goals isteach people when they're in
their teens or younger, whatworld they live in, you know, in
(02:14):
terms of resource. Because theydon't -- we think theoretically,
now, we think technologically,we think about, we all want to
be Steve Jobs. I don't, but kidsall want to be Steve Jobs. Why?
Because you can make money outof it, it's state of the art.
It's all about stuff, you don'teven have to meet anybody, could
live on technology like we'reusing right now. You don't have
(02:35):
to even bump into anybody, it's-- live in your basement. But
it's a whole world that theylive in now and enculturated. So
they want it they think --there's a culture of simply
being, you know, virtual. Sowe've gone from not studying
geography to not actually livingin a space with other people
where we're almost likeLilliputians from -- you know --
from Dean Swift, you know, Ithink there is a danger in
(02:57):
becoming schizoid, not connectedto your physical reality. Maybe
that's too deep. But it's Ithink people don't think about
anything in terms of watersupply -- out in California,
they're aware of water. I'lltell you, that was an issue.
They didn't know that. And theyfight over it state by state --
the Colorado River, how it getsdiverted, etc, etc. They're
(03:20):
aware of it, of life on thisplanet in California, because
the fires -- we know what'sgoing on in California. And when
I worked for the San FranciscoExaminer, we had a guy, one of
the editors who just absolutelybrilliant guy at that, because
that's what he studied his wholelife as a journalist -- water
and the limits of it.
Interesting, huh? And you don'tget that in a big city. You
(03:43):
don't get that kind ofeducation, that there's only so
much -- and that's what themovie Chinatown was all about,
water, remember?
Brian Czech (03:50):
Oh, that's right.
Chris Matthews (03:52):
Yeah.
Brian Czech (03:53):
Goes way back, those water issues. Yeah.
Chris Matthews (03:56):
Yeah.
Brian Czech (03:56):
It's coming to come into a real head, so to speak.
Well, I want to go back to aquestion about...
Chris Matthews (04:03):
Well it is gonna be an issue, you know, this
fracking thing in Pennsylvania-- you watch that issue in the
next -- this election -- I keepforgetting it's this year, we
have all these elections forgovernor and senator. There's
gonna be a lot of talk aboutresources in Pennsylvania and
whether a state that needs jobsshould resort to fracking. And I
think the politics would say, ohyeah, so you're not going to see
(04:23):
much environmental generalpushback on that. It's just --
it's like guns in Pennsylvaniaor the pro-life issue. It's one
of those things where you touchit, it's a third rail. And so
politicians don't want to beknown as, you know, Johnny
Appleseed here. They don't wantto be that person, like people
like Robert Redford out inCalifornia can be ostracized for
(04:46):
being environmentalist. You knowthat history. I mean, it's real.
Brian Czech (04:50):
Little bit.
Chris Matthews (04:51):
You're not the good guy if you're an
environmentalist.
Brian Czech (04:53):
Yeah, so ironic.
Chris Matthews (04:55):
They want the mining.
Brian Czech (04:56):
Well, we're gonna continue being bad guys I guess
here at CASSE...
Chris Matthews (05:00):
That's the role you've chosen and fair enough
and good for you. Because thecounter-education isn't getting
there and a geographicalknowledge of who we are and what
we live off of. And, you know, Ido think about this friend of
mines in solid waste. And hetook me on a tour of
Pennsylvania, solid waste sites.
Big mounds of earth covering upGod knows what, and what is our
(05:20):
environmental concern, the heatlevel, that gets generated
spontaneously in those piles oftrash and garbage, and what goes
on under that has to berelieved, through spouts that
come out. Lets the heat out ofetc. And they got to protect the
water supply all nearby if theycan. But think about those big
mounds, when are we going to gointo them someday -- I won't be
(05:43):
around, I don't think -- butsomeday we're going to be mining
those solid waste dumps with allthat stuff in there. With all
the metal, and other stuff thatyou have to, you know, maybe
there'll be a technology toreuse all that again. I know
that -- we all know that'scoming. Anybody doesn't think
about it's crazy, we're gonnahave to go back over everything
(06:03):
we've ever used and use itagain, you know, can't strip
mine the Earth, can't strip mineeverything.
Brian Czech (06:10):
You know that if you want to put it this way, the
apple of our reforming eye isthat Full Employment and
Balanced Growth Act of 1978, orFEBGA. FEBGA remains the central
economic policy of the USA, andit mandates the government onto
the path of GDP growth. So, youknow, it's as antiquated in the
(06:30):
21st century as FDR's originalEmployment Act was by 1978. So
we're working on thesecomprehensive amendments, Chris.
And first of all, would you haveany rules of thumb for how we
should go about building supporton the hill? By the way, we
would call it -- we would renameit the Full and Sustainable
Employment Act. And we'd get theUSA off that growth path.
Chris Matthews (06:55):
Oh, God, I guess you have to do this. Your
natural allies would not be theextractive industry states.
You're not going to do well inUtah. And although you have
religious concern in Utah forthe Earth, with the Mormon
people, probably in the suburbs,the more educated people
(07:17):
book-learned people, who arewilling to go to meetings and
get involved in a greenmovement. And that would be
probably -- I don't know, Idon't want to judge this -- but
I would say, people that readthe newspapers in the big cities
and would be open to aconversation, and even a
speculation about where we'reheaded, cannot and probably are
(07:41):
not facing really closeelections, where the economy is
shaky. You know, you just got tobe logical about it. The people
that can get on television, andbring this topic up. I know this
was very -- well, you rememberthis, in the mid 70s, in the
burbs? This is something youwould talk about.
Brian Czech (08:01):
Yeah.
Chris Matthews (08:02):
And mainly but not only Democrats, mainly but
not only. And, you know, youcould have a conversation like
that with Leach from Iowa. Someof the ones around Philadelphia,
the suburbs. You could get theseconversations going on radio and
television. Gaylord Nelson, wellhe headed the The World Wildlife
(08:26):
Association. What a great guy hewas, what a character. I mean.
Brian Czech (08:29):
Yeah.
Chris Matthews (08:30):
He knew how to enjoy life, and he was a
thoughtful guy and a greatpersonality, and he got wiped
away by this Wisconsinconservativism, that's came
back. You know, Ron Johnson, Imean, look at the difference --
Ron Johnson and Gaylord Nelson,you cannot think of two
different people politically.
Brian Czech (08:48):
My gosh, yeah.
Chris Matthews (08:49):
I know, gosh, but it's this conservativism, it
says simply cut taxes, stoppeople at the border and
whatever else. It's powerful.
And some part of it is truepolitically and socially. It's
thuggish politics, but it worksin a time where people are
(09:09):
afraid. Right now. I mean, youmentioned this at the beginning
of our conversation, this is atime that sort of bangs back and
forth between being scary andboring.
Brian Czech (09:21):
You're right.
Chris Matthews (09:22):
It's boring.
There's something in ourpolitics that lacks the spice
that got me fascinated bypolitics back in the 50s with
Kennedy and Nixon, I mean, talkabout two political
heavyweights, and Eisenhower wasalmost Godly, and everything
was, you know, the legacy ofRoosevelt and Truman -- it was
just big time. It wasexhilarating to have a political
(09:44):
conversation. Adlai Stevensoneven, I mean, he lost but what a
voice...
Brian Czech (09:50):
He worked for Muskie too, right?
Chris Matthews (09:54):
And I -- and Muskie was a hit. Well, he was a
light heavyweight, and he wassomething else, a true believer
in clean water, clean air. Hepassed those bills, Brian, he
did.
Brian Czech (10:05):
Okay, yeah.
Chris Matthews (10:06):
One man, clean air and clean water, and people
like Phil Hart of Michigan.
These were statesmen of theplanet. They were looking out
for the big stuff. And they hadpeople like [inaduible] behind
him and people like that.
Brian Czech (10:19):
Yeah, we were...
Chris Matthews (10:20):
And they were Westerners like Frank Church. I
mean, Westerners were all thosePro-Environmental Westerners,
who came out of the plainsstate, the Rockies, were all
wiped out in the 70s, and thesagebrush rebellion. Just all
wiped off. All the conservativepeople -- I mean,
environmentally concerned people-- all are wiped out. My first
boss, Frank Moss, you know, allthose people who had
(10:44):
environmental concerns, and werebuilding vast national parks and
preserving the land from miningand exploitation, so that you
can have beauty out thereforever. And all that stuff gets
stopped. And they're stilltrying to peel it back, you
know, out into places like Utah.
They're trying to peel back thepreserved land. But that was
something the guys staked theircareers on. And Nelson was one
(11:05):
of them. And my god, FrankChurch, and McGovern and all
those people. They're all gone.
Brian Czech (11:13):
Yeah, a lot has changed, and there was a
particular change that I'minterested in vis-a-vis yourself
and the parties, but first weneed to take a short
non-commercial break with JamesLamont. Take it away, James.
James Lamont (11:31):
Hello, listeners, we hope you're enjoying the
show. Like many of our guests onThe Steady Stater, Chris
Matthews is a signatory to theCASSE position statement on
economic growth. He's one of themany notable signatories among
our ranks, including esteemedscientists, economists and other
thinkers. You can see a list ofthese notables by going to our
website, steadystate.org, andclicking the Position button.
(11:52):
Then click the Signatures andEndorsements link in the right
hand menu. You may see a namethat proves useful in convincing
friends and family members tosign the position themselves.
And now back to the show.
Brian Czech (12:04):
Welcome back steady staters. We're talking with
Chris Matthews of Hardball lore.
I saw a quote from you, from oneof your Hardball episodes where
you said "I'm more conservativethan people think I am. I voted
for George W. in 2000." And I'mreally curious, were you really
voting for George W. or was itmore against Gore? Or had you
just had enough of Clintoniangovernment by then?
Chris Matthews (12:28):
Well, I thought, I believed W. Bush when he said
I want to see some humility inour foreign policy. Humility.
Humility! That was what he ranon, stop bossing people around.
No more. None of thishawkishness. Let's have a fight
over it. Let's put our troopsout there. I thought he meant
it. I don't know what happened,I guess 9/11, Dick Cheney, the
(12:51):
Neo-cons in the op-ed pages ofthe newspapers, hawkish, all
they want to do is go to warwith the Muslim world. I said,
stop it, stop it. Gore, God, hecould have gone either
direction. He could have beenthe biggest hawk in the world,
which he was when he ran in '88,superhawk, backed -- people like
Ed Koch like him, people likethat. I go look: I don't know
which Al Gore -- I voted againstthe hawkish Al Gore. And I voted
(13:14):
for the humble guy W. And I waswrong because W. became the
biggest Hawk in the world. Ithink he feels guilty about it
now, he's now painting. I don'tthink he has any more
conversations with Dick Cheneyanymore. I think he'd -- my
hunch, just a hunch -- he knowshe got suckered into that war
with Iraq. And because Cheneyand Scooter Libby, that whole
(13:35):
crowd wanted to do it. I made amistake. But I wouldn't say that
is the evidence of myconservativism. My
conservativism is fiscal inspending. It's more like Jimmy
Carter. I'm with Carter on thatstuff. And Carter understood. He
talked about the environment andenergy and all that stuff, and
we have to limit it. And hedidn't get any points for it
(13:58):
politically, but my God, hebrought peace between Egypt and
Israel. They haven't been --they had three wars since '48,
he got rid of all the wars. Andif Egypt wasn't going to fight
Israel, no Arab country wasgoing to find Israel. Israel's
got a danger of course fromIran, but the whole Arab world
is basically, you know,pacified, basically because this
Southern Baptist sat down with,you know, Begin and Sadat and
(14:23):
got them to cut a deal torecognize Israel's existence
forever. So I mean, he gothardly any credit for that. He
told the Panamanians you canhave the canal back under the
condition it stays open, itstays working, and we can use it
when we do it. And we get firstdibs. I mean, it's worked. It
has been up and down and thecanal still works. It's bigger
than ever. And Carter, inventedin the seven endless war with
(14:46):
the Panamanians which would havewould have been another sore
spot for us. He said no, let'sdo it. The first days in office:
he takes the oath of office, upat the Capitol and before he
leaves the Capitol, he does twothings. He thanks Gerald Ford
for hailing the country andthose guys became best friends
forever for the end -- tillGerald Ford's death. They really
(15:06):
did. I've been reading thediary. And then he sat down and
with his pen, pardoned all warresistors from the Vietnam War,
every single one that had beenliving up in Canada and
everybody else was totallyexonerated by him. In one act,
he said, we're not going toargue about this Vietnam war
anymore. I'm doing this thing. Imean, he did things like that
(15:28):
with complete courage. And Ithink someday he'll be
recognized for it. But I don'tknow it's gonna take a while.
The country wants a tough guypresident. They want a strong
man. At least half the countrydoes. And that's Trump. And
Carter didn't look like a strongman bossing people around in the
schoolyard. And they didn'tthink that was what they wanted.
So we paid...
Brian Czech (15:48):
And then after he fired the cabinet, that half
didn't want him either...
Chris Matthews (15:51):
Well, he -- he did. He fired them all. And then
he got rid of the ones he wantedto get rid of. Brock Adams and
Califano and the Secretary ofTreasury.
Brian Czech (16:01):
Okay, well, I want to go back to Gore for just a
moment. And..
Chris Matthews (16:04):
Yeah, Gore's hard to read, because Gore is
very good at -- obviously, hismovie was great, An Inconvenient
Truth. And of course, he playeda powerful role with that for a
while, maybe permanently, tosome extent. I don't know about
Al Gore. He was a --
Brian Czech (16:21):
I got a little story I wanna run by it...
Chris Matthews (16:24):
...difficult to read. I'm sorry.
Brian Czech (16:25):
Yeah. So yeah, he was ostensibly great on the
environment, or was his bookEarth in the Balance, you know,
way before. Yet I feel like heled the masses astray with that
old win-win rhetoric that "thereis no conflict between growing
the economy and protecting theenvironment..."
Chris Matthews (16:42):
That's politics.
That's politics.
Brian Czech (16:44):
Yeah, well, you know, I saw him utter that. I
call it the cynical Shibboleth.
It was on the Washington Mall,right on Earth Day 2000 with
thousands of people listening toevery word. And you know what?
An utter pall came over thatcrowd. And right then, I thought
he could lose this thing becauseof this one lie. And then sure
enough, seven months later, thatelection came down to those few
(17:06):
hanging chads in Florida.
Chris Matthews (17:10):
Well, that's another conversation. The
Supreme Court jumped in on thatunder equal protection, and it
was the argument that you can'thave one county counting the
chad is okay, and the other onecounting it, it's not okay. And
that was the basis of the fivefour remedy that threw it out,
threw out, stop the voting --stop the county rather -- and
(17:32):
but that's another subject.
Brian Czech (17:34):
It is. But for me, I just -- I wonder if he hadn't
bought into that -- what Ialways also called the
Clintonian rhetoric, the win-winrhetoric that you can have your
cake and eat it too on theeconomy and environment. Gore
might have won because he mayhave been seen as a truth
teller, in a time, you know,where people wanted to see that,
(17:58):
but I don't know. We'll neverknow, I guess.
Chris Matthews (18:00):
No, I think this is something for you to think
about, because I thought aboutthis before, a lot. There is an
American romance. The notionthat you can avoid the tough
trade-offs that you can have avictory through -- what's the
right word -- audacity. And ifyou think about how football was
(18:25):
played, our national sport -- nomatter what anybody says --
football, it's a rough game,it's a Midwestern thing. And
you're basically two sidespounding each other at the line,
and lots of injuries, kind ofboring, eventually, because it's
just a few yards and a cloud ofdust, and somebody wins a game
by three to nothing or somethingon a kick. And it's boring. So
(18:48):
what do we do? We found aromance, the forward pass, Knute
Rockne and all that. And all ofa sudden, oh, you didn't have to
fight it out on the line. Youdon't have the trade-off of
blood and guts. You could throwit. You could have a quarterback
who could throw the ball 30yards, and you can win the game
big time. We're fighting theKorean War, and it's trade offs
are a horrendous fight. We'redown at Pusan practically trying
to fight for our lives and allof a sudden, MacArthur does the
(19:11):
Inchon landing, he cuts in fromthe left, and we win that we
basically throw the whole battleback up to the Yalu. I mean, so
we're used to that kind ofincursion-- we don't have to
trade it off back and forth. Wecan go around and win this.
Churchill tried to do it withthe Dardanelles in World War I,
get out of the trenches andgoing through Turkey. Well, we
always want to find that endrun. That is the American thing,
(19:32):
or the British thing. And Ithink that the romance is that
you can have the technology jobs-- President Biden to his credit
does talk like this we -- cancreate a lot of jobs and try to
save resources. I don't knowwhat the trade off is, it's like
Reagan would say, I can cuttaxes and bring in more revenue,
well it didn't happen. It wasgreat romance. Oh, we don't have
(19:53):
to trade between cutting taxesand cutting programs. Oh no! We
can just keep the same programs,the same spending level, but
we'll cut taxes and there'll bemore revenue coming in. By the
way, he's talking about aparticular line, tax elasticity
-- it's in economics I studiedit, it does happen. In a certain
limited notion, you do get morerevenue. If you cut your prices,
for example, in this market -- Itaught it in Africa -- you might
(20:15):
get more sales, and that wouldmake more revenue than you had
before. It's always the end run,Brian.
Brian Czech (20:21):
Right.
Chris Matthews (20:22):
It's an emotion that is so powerful, that -- the
end run, that you can avoid theconflict, the trade off, because
if you do the forward pass, theInchon landing or anything, if
we can avoid it, that's better.
So politicians say, you don'thave to trade, you don't have to
choose; I can get youeverything. Roosevelt used to
kid about his opponents and say-- his opponents, he was so good
at sarcasm, FDR, if you read him-- I guess you can't hear him
(20:45):
right now, but he would say, theRepublicans come along and say,
"I can give you everything theDemocrats do, and it won't cost
you anything." It was a greatupper-class accent of Roosevelt.
And he would say it like thatwas so rich sarcasm," and it
won't cost you anything."
Brian Czech (21:05):
That's great.
Chris Matthews (21:06):
And I think that's what you're talking
about. I think there is a notionof the end run of the forward
pass, the Inchon landing. Ithink there really is a notion
you don't have to choose,because choosing hurts. Nobody
wants to choose.
Brian Czech (21:18):
Well, Chris, you ran for the House of
Representatives some yearsback...
Chris Matthews (21:21):
When I was 28.
Brian Czech (21:22):
...recall? Well, there was some speculation that
you might run for the Senate in2010. Right?
Chris Matthews (21:28):
Well, there was speculation, because I was
thinking about it. Well I hadbeen away, I went to college in
Worcester, Massachusetts, HolyCross, and I -- then I went to
grad school at Chapel Hill,North Carolina. I loved Chapel
Hill. And I went in the PeaceCorps in Africa for two years,
and then I came back, and Iworked in politics in
Washington. I hadn't really beenhome since I was 17 -- living at
(21:50):
home, except that race forCongress in the primary. And I,
I thought about it a lot becausea lot of people knew me, I had a
Philadelphia accent -- don'tknow if you recognize it, but
everybody up there knew it. Italked like I was from Philly.
And I had the backing of thepolitical machine in Philly, I
had the governor's support. Alot, a lot of quiet support, and
(22:10):
Mayor Scranton. A lot of peoplesaid they were for me, and they
were going to be for me. But Ijust figured I'd never been up
there. I didn't have a campaignorganization, I couldn't make a
phone call, in this regardwithout somebody outing me and
saying, I did it. So I couldn'treally keep the job of covering
the politics of the country, andat the same time planning to
enter it. I had to quit my job,and start from scratch in
(22:32):
raising the money and all thatstuff. And I just didn't want to
make the leap. I was close toit. But it's -- I respect people
that have the nerve to --usually they're lawyers who have
something to fall back on. Theyknow they can go back to their
firm or-- but it's a big risk torun because you can -- most
(22:53):
people lose. I mean, there'susually a number of candidates
for the same job and only onewins. And that's every cycle.
Every time there's an election,a whole bunch of people run, and
one wins, and all the otherslose. That's why I have no
problem with pensions forCongresspeople, if they managed
to get elected, because therisks of losing is overwhelming.
But you know what? I would haveliked to be a Senator, whether I
(23:15):
would like the job of being asenator is a totally different
question. As Gene McCarthy, oneof my heroes once said, it's a
job and I don't want it. That'swhen he quit. He didn't run
again in '70. It's a job ofserving 10 or 20 million people
or whatever the size of yourstate and they call up, you
better work for them. If the guyhas a sewer project, this mayor,
(23:36):
he wants to talk about it withyou all week. That's your job.
You're really a servant, ifyou're a good Senator of the
people of your state. And that'sa hell of a calling. It's almost
like being a priest. I mean, youhave to really believe in it to
do it. And it's very generous ifyou're a really great Senator --
it is a generous vocation. Itreally is if you think about it.
Anybody who wants your help inthat state deserves your help --
(23:59):
deserves it.
Brian Czech (24:01):
Okay. Well one last question. And maybe it's a good
segue, it's good from that. Whatwould you say is our greatest
source of hope for a democratictransition to a steady state
economy?
Chris Matthews (24:14):
Well, it's not totally politically correct --
but what the heck -- TeddyRoosevelt, I think you have to
have someone who exemplifies theAmerican character and takes it
into a new frontier -- if youwill -- and be willing to say,
we're a country that isreligious, to a large extent,
(24:36):
and realistic, to a greatextent, that we can adapt, that
we can recognize the future fast-- better than any other country
in the world. We can recognizethe future better than anybody
else. We're gonna charge intoit. And we're gonna be the ones
that knows what this reality is.
And we're gonna face it, as wedid when we first came here --
the Europeans came here -- andwe're gonna be smart. And we're
(24:57):
going to do what has to be donewith a kind of a romance, if you
will. And that takes a TeddyRoosevelt on horseback
basically, to say, we're goingto do this thing. And it's going
to be tough. And it's going tohurt a little. But we have to do
it. And that's how we got to themoon. And that's what we went
where people hadn't gone before.
(25:21):
And part of it is understanding-- I think we won't be the only
country to do it though. I dolook to the Germans now -- I
know it's odd, given the historyof the 20th century -- but I do
love the grown-ups of the world.
And politics is ironic. A trueconservative is not somebody
says No to the people who arepoor, or left out. A true
conservative is someone whokeeps the country together, who
(25:44):
holds the country together, aconservative holds people
together, they keep them fromwanting to be revolutionaries. A
true leader on the environment,on growth issues, has to be
somebody who can hold ustogether, and get us to see
things in a set consensus. And Ithink -- look, I think Teddy
Roosevelt belongs up on MountRushmore, because of that, and
(26:05):
because if you have -- if you goto any national park in the
world, you're benefiting fromhim. And the glory of this
country is our geography. Imean, it really is. No other
country in the world has ourgeography. And we got to keep
it. And as I said, learninggeography might be the first
step to keeping it.
Brian Czech (26:28):
Well, it's been a fascinating episode, and I'm
sure all the steady staters outthere will concur. Thanks so
much for being on the show,Chris. And I really hope you can
join us--
Chris Matthews (26:36):
Thanks for having the show.
Brian Czech (26:38):
Okay.
Chris Matthews (26:39):
Take care.
Brian Czech (26:55):
Well, folks, that about wraps 'er up. We've been
talking with Chris Matthews, aleading commentator in American
politics for the past threedecades. As a prolific broadcast
journalist, newspaperjournalist, and book author,
he's probably done as much toframe the debates as any
politician -- we need him tokeep framing too. He gets it
(27:17):
about limits to growth, and heunderstands the political
challenges we face as steadystaters. We need more Chris
Matthews and more hardball.
Hardball with the CATOInstitutes and the Chicago
Schools and the dark moneyed,perpetual growthers who are
driving the USA and theinternational community to an
agonizing breach of limits togrowth. I'm Brian Czech and
(27:40):
you've been listening to TheSteady Stater podcast. See you
next time.
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