January 17, 2022 • 32 mins
The future, as they say, is unwritten. But that didn’t stop authors Christina Conklin and Marina Psaros from speculating, in their acclaimed book The Atlas of Disappearing Places: Our Coasts and Oceans in the Climate Crisis. We spoke with Christina about some of the 20 locations covered, combining artistry with science, and seaweed. Can our cultures and economies leap forward in acts of transilience?
Christina's website: www.christinaconklin.com
What's Next For Earth art project: www.whatsnextforearth.com
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Pat Choate (00:06):
From the Center for the Advancement of the Steady
State Economy, this is TheSteady Stater, a podcast
dedicated to discussing limitsto growth and the steady state
economy.
Brian Czech (00:17):
Welcome to the show. I'm your host, Brian
Czech, and our guest today isartist, activist, and author
Christina Conklin, based in HalfMoon Bay, California. Christina
gets creative in a variety ofmedia at the nexus of nature and
culture. Her award-winning workhas been exhibited in the USA,
Japan, and Hong Kong. She's alsoworked in the publishing and
(00:40):
non-profit sectors, and she's aco-author of the recent book,
The Atlas of DisappearingPlaces: Our Coasts and Oceans in
the Climate Crisis. Believe itor not, her co-authors name is
Marina; that's Marina Psaros, aclimate and sustainability
activist. The Atlas comprises 20stories of global heating
(01:01):
impacts around the world, fromHawaii to Hamburg, San Juan to
Shanghai. These contemporarynarratives are woven together
with speculative "futurehistories" envisioned for 2050.
This creative book, withstunning and colorful maps and
graphs, is a one of a kind mixof fact finding, coffee table,
(01:23):
storytelling, and cli-fi genres.
Christina Conklin, welcome toThe Steady Stater.
Christina Conklin (01:30):
Thank you so much for having me.
Brian Czech (01:32):
Thanks for being on the show. Christina, your love
of the oceans comes through loudand clear in your work. What's
the love story there, if youwill? How did you get so close
to the oceans?
Christina Conklin (01:44):
Well, I grew up going to the Oregon coast a
lot as a child. And I think, youknow, we just each have an
inherent love of a certain kindof a place, whether it's the
mountains, or the desert, or thecity. And for me, the ocean is
my place. And I ended up doing alot of work on the ocean, in my
graduate work, my fine artdegree, looking at long-term
(02:08):
cycles and geologic time, andhow the ocean is both a metaphor
for that, but also a specificsite, where you can do a lot of
work that has to do withecology, and you know, the state
of the planet and the peril thatwe're in at the moment.
Brian Czech (02:24):
Okay, in The Atlas of Disappearing Places -- I'll
just call it The Atlas -- youfocused on four global heating
impacts in our oceans and alongour coastlines: changing
chemistry, warming waters,strengthening storms, and rising
seas. You've tied these fourthemes to a metaphor of the
human body, too. Can youelaborate a bit on the metaphor
(02:47):
you constructed?
Christina Conklin (02:48):
Yes, of course. I developed an
ocean-as-body metaphorthroughout the book, because I
felt like if we could identify-- we understand our own bodies
fairly well -- if we couldidentify with the living world
as an organism as well, then wemight be able to come back into
stronger relationship with it,rather than seeing the Earth as
(03:10):
a resource and an ocean as agarbage dump. Let's think of it
as a body, and all of thesystems and how they connect,
and how they are healthy, andhow they get sick. And so within
our own bodies, you know, if wehave -- we change our chemistry
if we overuse a particularsubstance, "substance abuse,"
(03:30):
and so the metaphor is that --in the book -- is that we are
overusing fossil fuels rightnow. And that is the abuse
that's happening on theplanetary scale. And in the
warming water section of thebook, you know, the Earth has
caught a fever. And when wecatch a fever, there are impacts
throughout our body, beyond justthe local site of the infection
(03:52):
or the, you know, the particularvirus, and fevers can be deadly,
right? And so we are at a momentof runaway fever in the ocean.
It's only just begun, but it'salready impacting ecosystems on
a global scale. And we need tobe paying attention to the
ocean's systems and the Earth'ssystems. In the same way we
(04:14):
would take care of ourselves ifwe were ill.
Brian Czech (04:17):
Yeah, it's kind of a coastal COVID scenario.
Christina Conklin (04:22):
Right.
Brian Czech (04:24):
Well, Christina, it's my privilege to quote one
of our favorite CASSEsignatories, Vandana Shiva. She
said, "The Atlas of DisappearingPlaces is a story told through
art and science that takes us ona journey across the planet,
through the throwaway culture ofplastic waste and the toxic
(04:44):
culture of fertilizers andpesticides and dead zones. It's
not just a story of climatechange. It is also a story of
extinction. A must-read foranyone who cares about the
future of the planet andpeople." You had some other
great blurbs, Christina, butthat one does a nice job of
introducing the book, and soundsto me like you made quite an
(05:05):
impression on Vandana Shiva!
Christina Conklin (05:08):
Well, that's a, it was a great honor, of
course, to get that kind ofendorsement from her. She's
amazing. I think what we triedto do was tied together, you
know, often climate change getstalked about in isolation, as an
issue of, you know, greenhousegas emissions, but it's so much
(05:28):
more interconnected than that.
And what Dr. Shiva was pointingout was that plastics is, we
think of as just like apollution problem, but it's
actually a climate changeproblem, because it is the
fossil fuels we extract from theEarth to create the plastic that
then becomes the garbage thatchokes the turtles. So we really
(05:49):
have to take things back totheir sources. And the source,
as you all well know, is anextractive economy that is bent
on growth above all else, andthat is just using the Earth as
-- this is ridiculous to say --but a resource rather than the
source itself of all that we,all we have and all that we are.
Brian Czech (06:16):
Mmhmm, yes. You know, you featured the plight of
our oceans. But of course, a lotof the human suffering is meted
out along those coastlines. AndI hope this isn't too personal
of a question, but what keepsyou up at night? Is it our
violation of Mother Nature orthe vulnerability of the
Rohingya refugees stranded outon those Bangladeshi chars?
Christina Conklin (06:39):
Yeah, well, I think this is a very personal--
I mean, it has to be personal,we all have to take this
personally. I think that's beenwhat we-- so many people haven't
been willing to do yet. And it'shard, because it can bring up
feelings of like hopelessnessand despair, and like feeling
too small to be able to createan impact. And so the, you know,
(07:01):
these are difficult emotions,there's grief associated with
what is happening in the worldright now. And I would say that
the important thing is toacknowledge those things, and
then to come together with otherpeople, and discuss those things
so that you're not, you know,we're not alone. And that, in
itself, is an act of, I wouldsay, a revolutionary political
(07:22):
act, to talk about these thingstogether. So yeah, I am kept up
at night by basically what theworld's gonna be like for my
children and grandchildren, ofcourse. And it is, it's a very,
it's a painful position we'rein. I was able, I think, to
abstract it enough in theprocess of writing the book to
(07:44):
get the book written. But thisis I think, the next cultural
challenge for all of us is tohave difficult conversations
together in a, you know,compassionate and
forward-looking way that doesn'tfall -- I think despair is a cop
out at this point. We reallyneed to actually be doing all we
(08:04):
can to build the new systems weneed within the old broken
systems, so that they are ready,they are ready when the old
systems, you know, stop workingeven more fully than they have
already.
Brian Czech (08:18):
Well, along those lines, some of the disappearing
places you wrote about are a lotfurther into the disappearing
act than others. Those chars inBangladesh are pretty high on
the list. And what other placeswould you say would round out
the top five in terms ofcatastrophic imminence?
Christina Conklin (08:36):
Well, where things are happening now, I
would say the Arctic is in thegreatest danger in the world
right now. They've seen risingtemperatures and environmental
changes at a scale that the restof us really can't even imagine.
There aren't that many people inthe Arctic witnessing this, but
(08:58):
there are indigenous Inuit innorthern Canada and peoples
along the Asian continent, aswell. And there's a lot we can
learn from indigenous folksaround the world wherever they
are, because they have longcultural memories, and we have
comparatively very shortcultural memories. So how you
(09:19):
live in times of change, and howyou adapt, and how you listen to
nature, and have a relationshipwith it, and correspond with it
is something we should really befocusing on. And fortunately,
there is a big movement in theindigenous community to share
their knowledge and to becomemore powerful and vocal. And so
(09:44):
I would actually say that's avery hopeful sign. I would say
the other main place I thinkabout is urban cities. Just
because we have culturallyinvested so much of our money
and investment in urban citiesaround the world, and they're
almost always on a coastline. Sowe have the challenges of
(10:07):
industrial toxins, and we havethe challenges of, you know, in
-- people have filled in land incities and still are, all that
land is going to drown. And youknow, so the the challenges of
reconfiguring how we design andlive in cities is I would say
the other main thing that is --feels a little far away now, but
(10:29):
it's actually a critical issueto address now, because of
course, as we build things theylast a century. And we are
heading on the wrong path inthat regard.
Brian Czech (10:42):
Yeah, you wrote about New York City -- the
"Capital of Capital," you calledit -- some of the policy choices
made in the aftermath ofHurricane Sandy. And you made
the ironic point that making anarea more resilient, such as
with sea walls, can then justencourage further development
and growth in the now supposedlysafe flood plain. Do you have
(11:04):
any artwork in mind toillustrate the folly of such a
response?
Christina Conklin (11:09):
Well, there has been an interesting artwork,
actually, in New York City, it'smaybe even 10 years old now. But
it was called High Water Line.
And it was an artist who walkedaround New York with a baseball
field chalking machine to showpeople where the tide line would
be in the future. And of course,you're walking through the
(11:30):
middle of people'sneighborhoods, and, you know,
around office buildings. Andit's something, I think there
are a number of artists who aretrying to help visualize for
people what it could be. Therewas another project in San
Francisco where the artist sortof put barnacles halfway up the
telephone poles. Just to say,"hello!" And so I've led some
(11:50):
participatory walks, calledTideline as Timeline walks. And
they really talk about, youknow, where is this tideline
going to be? And how do werelate to that future that we
can't quite imagine. I mean, asyou will probably know that, you
know, we've been in this kind ofgeologic pause for the past 5000
(12:12):
years when sea levels have beenvery stable. And that is going
to change. And it's going tochange very, very quickly,
starting, you know, soon in thenext couple of decades. So these
are conversations we need tohave.
Brian Czech (12:29):
Yeah, you can see it in places already, where, you
know, down on the Gulf ofMexico, and Chesapeake Bay, and
places where we've already lost-- half of some of the National
Wildlife Refuges in those areas,for example. Your chapter on
Vietnam is titled Doing MoreWith Less. So we like the sound
of that -- sounds very steadystate-ish. And the chapter
(12:52):
focuses on rice production,which often has a large methane
footprint. These rice farmersface growing challenges as the
climate changes, hence, the lesspart of the chapter title doing
more with less. So what'shappening to farming in places
like Vietnam? And where are theygoing to get their food?
Christina Conklin (13:13):
Well, I -- not being an agronomist, I don't
have an easy answer for you. Imean, I know that there are, of
course, projects that aredeveloping heat-tolerant grains,
and things like that. I don'tknow if they will keep pace with
the rate of change that will becoming in a few decades. It is,
(13:35):
you know, it's a major challengefeeding the world, and
especially when -- in especiallylike the rice growing countries,
those are really, I mean, noteven high, I think high risk
makes it sound as if somethingmight not happen, but sea level
will rise a meter in the comingdecades, and 40% of the Mekong
(14:00):
Delta rice growing area will beunderwater. So you know, these
are facts. Again, it behooves usto think of them as such not as
risks or probabilities, but asfacts.
Brian Czech (14:12):
Exactly.
Christina Conklin (14:13):
Yeah, I'm hopeful for science and coming
up with ways to keep the peoplefed. But of course, population
growth is one of the real risksof our culture right now. We
have outlived, we've outstrippedour planet in terms of human
population.
Brian Czech (14:33):
Moving over to a different part of the world. In
your chapter on San Juan, PuertoRico, you go back to the 2017
disaster of Hurricane Maria,where the death toll estimates
went as high as 4000. Based onyour account of the problem, it
wasn't just bad geographicalluck, but the bureaucratic and
legal confusion caused by PuertoRico status as an unincorporated
(14:57):
territory of the USA. Howtragically frustrating that must
have been for Puerto Ricans. Youthink we should expect a
geopolitical future of moreindependence and secession
movements?
Christina Conklin (15:12):
Well, it is interesting. I actually am
hopeful that that will happen.
And the chapter I wrote aboutthe Cook Islands in the South
Pacific also points at this ideaof greater autonomy for colonial
and formerly colonial nations.
You know, how do we, how dopeople have more say about their
(15:35):
their own communities, lives,and futures? And so it's -- I
was actually surprised to learnthat there's actually a UN
department whose whole missionis to move some of these small
island territories and far flungplaces, you know, into -- out of
-- into a post colonial era,into an autonomous status. I
(15:59):
think there will be more movesfor that, I think there is
energy moving in this direction,both because as I mentioned, of
the sort of indigenous claims,and rights, and the rights of
nature is another interestingarea of law that is developing,
that I think will move thingstoward, more toward locality,
(16:22):
and more away fromglobalization, I guess is the
simple word for it.
Brian Czech (16:28):
Well, Christina, we've got a few more questions
for you, including about thefutures you envision for the
disappearing places. But first,we need to take a short
non-commercial break with JamesLamont. Take it away, James!
James Lamont (16:47):
Hello, listeners.
We hope you're enjoying theshow. If this episode has
inspired you, and you'reconsidering any creative methods
to advance the steady stateeconomy in 2022, there are lots
of ways that you can communicatethose ideas with us. Our podcast
page at our websitesteadystate.org is open to
public comments. And you canalso find email addresses for
all of our staff. On socialmedia, we're active on Twitter
(17:07):
and Facebook. Just search eithersite for CASSE. And if you need
another way to get in touch withus, we're sure that you'll find
a creative solution. And now,back to the show.
Brian Czech (17:20):
Welcome back. We're talking with Christina Conklin,
co-author of The Atlas ofDisappearing Places. Before we
get to the future, as I alludedto in part one, let's talk for a
bit about the artistic methodsyou used, Christina, in The
Atlas. You rendered the maps inyour book using an
ink-on-dried-seaweed process. Itmakes for a pretty unique
(17:42):
presentation, kind ofreminiscent of the maps of yore.
Tell us about so-called"sea-lettuce" as a medium, and
why you chose to work with it onthis project.
Christina Conklin (17:53):
Yes, well, I spend a lot of time at the
ocean, as I said, lucky enoughto live near it. And I began
collecting all of this abundantseaweed that was washing up on
our shores, and playing with it,really, this is what artists do,
luckily. And I found that whenthese sort of the big sheets of,
(18:14):
they call it sea-lettuce. Theywash up, and when it dries, it
shrinks a bit, it turns intosomething like a kind of a
parchment paper that does looklike the old fashioned maps, it
has sort of a veiny livingquality, which I really liked.
And then it bleaches out overtime the chlorophyll dissipates,
(18:34):
and it becomes again, like thiskind of creamy color. And so I
just started playing with that alot. And then transposing the
actual published scientific mapsthat climate scientists are
developing in these many, manyresearch studies to show the
shrinking of the Arctic icesheets, the sea level rise as it
(18:55):
will be in coming decades andcenturies. And so that kind of
light painting on the seaweedand then layering that onto a
Google Earth map to give somegeographical reference points,
does kind of marry this kind ofnew data with old timey look.
(19:16):
But also using the product ofthe sea to illustrate the issues
in the sea, which to me was agood reason to go with this
material.
Brian Czech (19:25):
Yeah, well, it was quite an effect. I'm glad you
did that. Early in The Atlas youwrote about ecological
thresholds or tipping points,and you displayed this fairly
well-known graphic by now onplanetary boundaries from the
Stockholm Resilience Center.
Kate Raeworth helped topopularize that image in
doughnut economics. And then ofcourse, we took the donut and
rolled it out into asteady-state diagram. A
(19:47):
"breadstick" we called it, withGDP on the Y axis. I guess I
don't need to tell you this,Christina, you as an artist, but
the old adage that a picturespeaks a thousand words was a
real winner, wasn't it?
Christina Conklin (20:03):
Absolutely.
And to that end, I would love tolet people know that there are
art projects going on now, as wementioned earlier to help
visualize this change, not justclimate change, but all of the
interwoven economic and socialcrises that are rolling up
together at this point. And I'mpart of a project called
"whatsnextforearth.com." That isartists responding to the video
(20:27):
course put out by RichardHeinberg, and the Post Carbon
Institute. It's called "ThinkResilience." And it lays out,
you know, the interconnectionbetween where we get our energy
and how we create our economies,and what assumptions we make
around those things and howthose have created the problem
(20:47):
that we're in, and how we canwrite new stories to write a
different future. So anyway,there are artists who are
responding with visual artworksto these challenges of resource
depletion, and populationgrowth, and such. And I would
encourage people to look it up-- whatsnextforearth.com -- as a
(21:10):
way to, again, just take theartistic impulse and try to move
beyond words in conveying someof these powerful ideas.
Brian Czech (21:23):
Well, I guess proportionately how many artists
out there, do you think, knowabout the need for a steady
state economy now? Do artiststend to be more or less aware
than the average citizen aboutlimits to growth?
Christina Conklin (21:37):
You know, unfortunately, I'm going to say,
it's not very well-known. Andthere are some of us, you know,
working hard to spread the word.
I first learned about it as apossibility -- I had never even
really heard of it until about2015 -- when I went to a big
conference on process philosophydown in Pomona College. That was
-- it was looking at where weare in the world from lots of
(22:01):
different perspectives. So Ijust think it's an idea that
hasn't, doesn't really getenough airplay. And, you know,
we're working on it, as are you.
But I think artists like so manypeople are really in the culture
that, you know, we're the fishin the water, right? It's hard
(22:22):
to see the water when you're init. And artists have been --
typically have kind of gone to amore of a like a Marxist model
or, like they understand thesystem is broken, don't have a
full understanding of why, andhow, and what to do about it. So
there are those of us who areworking to to educate artists so
(22:42):
that artists can then educateothers.
Brian Czech (22:46):
Well, we noticed that in one of the sidebars of
your book, you did bring out theconcept of the steady state
economy, which of course wereally appreciated. And then, in
fact, you introduced a number ofterms in the book. And one of
them, it seemed that you reallytook too is the term
"transilience," which you wroteabout in your concluding
(23:08):
chapter. Now, you know, E. O.
Wilson just left us a few weeksago. In fact, we eulogized him
on our last episode. And Ed wasa big proponent of consilience.
Christina Conklin (23:19):
Yeah.
Brian Czech (23:19):
So what, yeah, what's the difference between
consilience and transilience?
Christina Conklin (23:25):
Yes, well, I read Consilience, his book on
that topic, and came away with afeeling that he really just
wanted everybody to agree withhim. And that would be called
consilient thinking.
Brian Czech (23:41):
Don't we all?
Christina Conklin (23:44):
That does sound nice, right? So I think it
had -- so my academic backgroundis actually in religious
studies, and I have tremendousadmiration for and respect for
the need and drive among humansto understand our place in the
world. And that's, that hasexisted in every culture through
(24:07):
time and looks like, you know,different religious traditions
and philosophical traditions.
So, to me, Consilience didn'treally incorporate that element
of human culture in a way thatspeaks to me. Transilience, you
know, these are all just words.
But the idea, "silience" is theidea of jumping, right? You can
(24:29):
either be "resilient," which isto jump back, to bounce back, to
have the skills and strategiesto become whole again.
Transilience is the idea ofjumping forward, a
transformative change. And theidea that you can make creative
leaps rather than incrementalchange. And so I like the word
(24:51):
to posit it, as as an idea tosay, can we jump? Can we leap?
Do we have to do small, small,incremental changes to
economies, and cultures, andclimate policies, etc? Or can we
just make the leap? And my hopeis that we can, and that I
think, and I think it's beenshown, you know that this is
(25:11):
nonlinear change. And thatimplies, and actually assures
that, yes, we can make leaps.
Brian Czech (25:19):
Well, you know, we've been contemplating here at
CASSE, the value of stories,storytelling, and narratives
quite a bit lately. Now you'vedeclared that [quote]
"imagination is needed to tell anew story, one that refuses
heroes and villains but ratherfinds the threads that bind all
to all, such stories are besttold quietly, like fables,
(25:42):
because the world is scaryenough, without all the
screaming." Can you elaborate onthat for us?
Christina Conklin (25:49):
It's interesting that you chose that
quote, it's one of those that Ibelieve in my very bones. But of
course, it's hard to maybeelaborate on too much. It's just
I, you know, have faith inhumanity that we can find a way
forward that we are meant to bein relationship with each other
(26:12):
and with nature, and that all ofthe fear, and panic, and denial,
and rage right now is, you know,I suppose psychologically
understandable, but not reallywhat we are called to be as
people. And so I just -- I havea tremendous amount of hope in
(26:36):
people finding each other andcreating small, functional
ecological civilizations. Sure,you're, you know, well familiar
with that term, that, you know,that we can have communities
that function well. And it's noteasy. I mean, none of this is
easy. I don't want to pretendthat it is. But I just, I think
(26:58):
it would be too easy to give upand to say, we're doomed. But I
refuse to do that. I'm a defiantoptimist.
Brian Czech (27:07):
Oh, sure. Yeah, I mean, we like to use the
metaphor of the runaway train.
And even if we are on one, it'sa matter of how bad the crash is
at the end of the proverbial dayy'know, we can slow it down and
make things a lot less bad thanthey would have been. But that
brings us to the speculativefuture histories, portions of
the book, these are all set inthe year 2050. So how did you
(27:31):
and Marina Psaros go aboutdeciding what to write in terms
of optimism versus pessimism? Soin Chapter Two, for example, you
speculated that Pakistan is in aworld of pain by 2050, whereas
neighboring India not so much.
Are you extrapolating somegeopolitical trends? Or is it
(27:55):
more about raw ecology or what?
Christina Conklin (27:59):
Well, I would actually say this is where the
artistry came in, you know.
Fiction is necessarily wrong.
It's not meant to be predictive,we really just used these
sections of each chapter as away to draw forth perils and
possibilities, I guess, youknow. To point out in the
(28:22):
chapter that involves India andPakistan, for instance, what it
looks like to in India, wherethey have green tribunals,
currently, and if they make themeffective environmental
mechanisms to transition theirculture and economy away from
the most damaging impacts thatare currently there, you know,
(28:44):
that's actually -- could be thistremendously hopeful next --
transilient next step. Whereasif Pakistan, you know, follows
old habits that have gotten, youknow, have led to lots of
political corruption and otherthings that also exist in India
now -- it was really just afictional exercise in compare
and contrast, right? So each ofthese fictional narratives about
(29:08):
the future is really purelyspeculative, but hopefully is
pointing to better and worseways to make decisions, what we
might want to do and what wemight not.
Brian Czech (29:19):
Okay, and then in your chapter on the Cook Islands
in the South Pacific, youimagine a future where the
government authorizes mining ofthe sea floor for minerals.
Vaguely reminded me of theplotline in that new flick Don't
Look Up, where they're trying tofigure out how to mine that
comet. You know, your book isfull of dramatic stories, the
true ones unfolding as we speak,plus the potential ones you've
(29:42):
envisioned. Which one would youmost like to see up on Netflix?
Christina Conklin (29:49):
Well, I actually -- that Cook Islands
chapter is interesting, Isuppose because it actually came
true sooner than I predicted inthe 2050 chapter. I imagined
that they would start sea miningin 2022. But they did it in
2021. And they used COVID as anexcuse, that the drop off of
(30:12):
tourist dollars meant that theyreally needed to quote-unquote
"diversify their economy" andcreate this kind of dependence
on deep seabed mining, which isa new and unstudied technique of
raking the sea floor ofminerals. And so that's already
happening. And that actuallywould be a fabulous movie
(30:33):
because there are ecologicalheroes who have been fighting
this, there is politicalintrigue and infighting, and
self-serving businessmen andmega corporations. And the whole
thing is right there actually.
It would be a great miniseries.
But sadly not with the end thatwe would hope at least not yet.
(30:55):
You know, again, I always havehope that justice will prevail.
Brian Czech (31:00):
In the name of GDP is sounds like could be a title
for that. Well, Christina,thanks so much for being on the
show today. You're an extremelycreative thinker and producer of
different types of products thatare going to help for a long,
long time in helping to raiseawareness about limits to growth
(31:23):
and the need for degrowth towarda steady state economy. Hope you
come back again in a few months.
Christina Conklin (31:29):
Yeah, well, thank you so much. I've enjoyed
the conversation.
Brian Czech (31:48):
Well, folks, that about wraps her up. We've been
talking with Christina Conklin,artist, activist, and co-author
of The Atlas of DisappearingPlaces: Our Coasts and Oceans in
the Climate Crisis. The Atlasgives a deep dive, so to speak,
into the oceans. Now I don'twant to misportray this truly
(32:08):
unique book. It's not so much adeep data dive, but somehow a
deep thinking, deep reflectiondive that must be seen to be
appreciated. And just becauseit's not an atlas of the
International CartographicAssociation, let's not shrug it
off either. It's a far betterroadmap than Atlas Shrugged. I'm
(32:32):
Brian Czech and you've beenlistening to The Steady Stater
podcast. See you next time!
The following transcript has been formatted
(00:00):
for both accuracy and clarity.
On occasion the text may differslightly from what was literally
spoken. If you wish to compareaudio to text each section has
timestamps that correspond tothe recording above. Please let
us know of any glaring errors.
Pat Choate (00:06):
From the Center for the Advancement of the Steady
State Economy, this is TheSteady Stater, a podcast
dedicated to discussing limitsto growth and the steady state
economy.
Brian Czech (00:17):
Welcome to the show. I'm your host, Brian
Czech, and our guest today isartist, activist, and author
Christina Conklin, based in HalfMoon Bay, California. Christina
gets creative in a variety ofmedia at the nexus of nature and
culture. Her award-winning workhas been exhibited in the USA,
Japan, and Hong Kong. She's alsoworked in the publishing and
(00:40):
non-profit sectors, and she's aco-author of the recent book,
The Atlas of DisappearingPlaces: Our Coasts and Oceans in
the Climate Crisis. Believe itor not, her co-authors name is
Marina; that's Marina Psaros, aclimate and sustainability
activist. The Atlas comprises 20stories of global heating
(01:01):
impacts around the world, fromHawaii to Hamburg, San Juan to
Shanghai. These contemporarynarratives are woven together
with speculative "futurehistories" envisioned for 2050.
This creative book, withstunning and colorful maps and
graphs, is a one of a kind mixof fact finding, coffee table,
(01:23):
storytelling, and cli-fi genres.
Christina Conklin, welcome toThe Steady Stater.
Christina Conklin (01:30):
Thank you so much for having me.
Brian Czech (01:32):
Thanks for being on the show. Christina, your love
of the oceans comes through loudand clear in your work. What's
the love story there, if youwill? How did you get so close
to the oceans?
Christina Conklin (01:44):
Well, I grew up going to the Oregon coast a
lot as a child. And I think, youknow, we just each have an
inherent love of a certain kindof a place, whether it's the
mountains, or the desert, or thecity. And for me, the ocean is
my place. And I ended up doing alot of work on the ocean, in my
graduate work, my fine artdegree, looking at long-term
(02:08):
cycles and geologic time, andhow the ocean is both a metaphor
for that, but also a specificsite, where you can do a lot of
work that has to do withecology, and you know, the state
of the planet and the peril thatwe're in at the moment.
Brian Czech (02:24):
Okay, in The Atlas of Disappearing Places -- I'll
just call it The Atlas -- youfocused on four global heating
impacts in our oceans and alongour coastlines: changing
chemistry, warming waters,strengthening storms, and rising
seas. You've tied these fourthemes to a metaphor of the
human body, too. Can youelaborate a bit on the metaphor
(02:47):
you constructed?
Christina Conklin (02:48):
Yes, of course. I developed an
ocean-as-body metaphorthroughout the book, because I
felt like if we could identify-- we understand our own bodies
fairly well -- if we couldidentify with the living world
as an organism as well, then wemight be able to come back into
stronger relationship with it,rather than seeing the Earth as
(03:10):
a resource and an ocean as agarbage dump. Let's think of it
as a body, and all of thesystems and how they connect,
and how they are healthy, andhow they get sick. And so within
our own bodies, you know, if wehave -- we change our chemistry
if we overuse a particularsubstance, "substance abuse,"
(03:30):
and so the metaphor is that --in the book -- is that we are
overusing fossil fuels rightnow. And that is the abuse
that's happening on theplanetary scale. And in the
warming water section of thebook, you know, the Earth has
caught a fever. And when wecatch a fever, there are impacts
throughout our body, beyond justthe local site of the infection
(03:52):
or the, you know, the particularvirus, and fevers can be deadly,
right? And so we are at a momentof runaway fever in the ocean.
It's only just begun, but it'salready impacting ecosystems on
a global scale. And we need tobe paying attention to the
ocean's systems and the Earth'ssystems. In the same way we
(04:14):
would take care of ourselves ifwe were ill.
Brian Czech (04:17):
Yeah, it's kind of a coastal COVID scenario.
Christina Conklin (04:22):
Right.
Brian Czech (04:24):
Well, Christina, it's my privilege to quote one
of our favorite CASSEsignatories, Vandana Shiva. She
said, "The Atlas of DisappearingPlaces is a story told through
art and science that takes us ona journey across the planet,
through the throwaway culture ofplastic waste and the toxic
(04:44):
culture of fertilizers andpesticides and dead zones. It's
not just a story of climatechange. It is also a story of
extinction. A must-read foranyone who cares about the
future of the planet andpeople." You had some other
great blurbs, Christina, butthat one does a nice job of
introducing the book, and soundsto me like you made quite an
(05:05):
impression on Vandana Shiva!
Christina Conklin (05:08):
Well, that's a, it was a great honor, of
course, to get that kind ofendorsement from her. She's
amazing. I think what we triedto do was tied together, you
know, often climate change getstalked about in isolation, as an
issue of, you know, greenhousegas emissions, but it's so much
(05:28):
more interconnected than that.
And what Dr. Shiva was pointingout was that plastics is, we
think of as just like apollution problem, but it's
actually a climate changeproblem, because it is the
fossil fuels we extract from theEarth to create the plastic that
then becomes the garbage thatchokes the turtles. So we really
(05:49):
have to take things back totheir sources. And the source,
as you all well know, is anextractive economy that is bent
on growth above all else, andthat is just using the Earth as
-- this is ridiculous to say --but a resource rather than the
source itself of all that we,all we have and all that we are.
Brian Czech (06:16):
Mmhmm, yes. You know, you featured the plight of
our oceans. But of course, a lotof the human suffering is meted
out along those coastlines. AndI hope this isn't too personal
of a question, but what keepsyou up at night? Is it our
violation of Mother Nature orthe vulnerability of the
Rohingya refugees stranded outon those Bangladeshi chars?
Christina Conklin (06:39):
Yeah, well, I think this is a very personal--
I mean, it has to be personal,we all have to take this
personally. I think that's beenwhat we-- so many people haven't
been willing to do yet. And it'shard, because it can bring up
feelings of like hopelessnessand despair, and like feeling
too small to be able to createan impact. And so the, you know,
(07:01):
these are difficult emotions,there's grief associated with
what is happening in the worldright now. And I would say that
the important thing is toacknowledge those things, and
then to come together with otherpeople, and discuss those things
so that you're not, you know,we're not alone. And that, in
itself, is an act of, I wouldsay, a revolutionary political
(07:22):
act, to talk about these thingstogether. So yeah, I am kept up
at night by basically what theworld's gonna be like for my
children and grandchildren, ofcourse. And it is, it's a very,
it's a painful position we'rein. I was able, I think, to
abstract it enough in theprocess of writing the book to
(07:44):
get the book written. But thisis I think, the next cultural
challenge for all of us is tohave difficult conversations
together in a, you know,compassionate and
forward-looking way that doesn'tfall -- I think despair is a cop
out at this point. We reallyneed to actually be doing all we
(08:04):
can to build the new systems weneed within the old broken
systems, so that they are ready,they are ready when the old
systems, you know, stop workingeven more fully than they have
already.
Brian Czech (08:18):
Well, along those lines, some of the disappearing
places you wrote about are a lotfurther into the disappearing
act than others. Those chars inBangladesh are pretty high on
the list. And what other placeswould you say would round out
the top five in terms ofcatastrophic imminence?
Christina Conklin (08:36):
Well, where things are happening now, I
would say the Arctic is in thegreatest danger in the world
right now. They've seen risingtemperatures and environmental
changes at a scale that the restof us really can't even imagine.
There aren't that many people inthe Arctic witnessing this, but
(08:58):
there are indigenous Inuit innorthern Canada and peoples
along the Asian continent, aswell. And there's a lot we can
learn from indigenous folksaround the world wherever they
are, because they have longcultural memories, and we have
comparatively very shortcultural memories. So how you
(09:19):
live in times of change, and howyou adapt, and how you listen to
nature, and have a relationshipwith it, and correspond with it
is something we should really befocusing on. And fortunately,
there is a big movement in theindigenous community to share
their knowledge and to becomemore powerful and vocal. And so
(09:44):
I would actually say that's avery hopeful sign. I would say
the other main place I thinkabout is urban cities. Just
because we have culturallyinvested so much of our money
and investment in urban citiesaround the world, and they're
almost always on a coastline. Sowe have the challenges of
(10:07):
industrial toxins, and we havethe challenges of, you know, in
-- people have filled in land incities and still are, all that
land is going to drown. And youknow, so the the challenges of
reconfiguring how we design andlive in cities is I would say
the other main thing that is --feels a little far away now, but
(10:29):
it's actually a critical issueto address now, because of
course, as we build things theylast a century. And we are
heading on the wrong path inthat regard.
Brian Czech (10:42):
Yeah, you wrote about New York City -- the
"Capital of Capital," you calledit -- some of the policy choices
made in the aftermath ofHurricane Sandy. And you made
the ironic point that making anarea more resilient, such as
with sea walls, can then justencourage further development
and growth in the now supposedlysafe flood plain. Do you have
(11:04):
any artwork in mind toillustrate the folly of such a
response?
Christina Conklin (11:09):
Well, there has been an interesting artwork,
actually, in New York City, it'smaybe even 10 years old now. But
it was called High Water Line.
And it was an artist who walkedaround New York with a baseball
field chalking machine to showpeople where the tide line would
be in the future. And of course,you're walking through the
(11:30):
middle of people'sneighborhoods, and, you know,
around office buildings. Andit's something, I think there
are a number of artists who aretrying to help visualize for
people what it could be. Therewas another project in San
Francisco where the artist sortof put barnacles halfway up the
telephone poles. Just to say,"hello!" And so I've led some
(11:50):
participatory walks, calledTideline as Timeline walks. And
they really talk about, youknow, where is this tideline
going to be? And how do werelate to that future that we
can't quite imagine. I mean, asyou will probably know that, you
know, we've been in this kind ofgeologic pause for the past 5000
(12:12):
years when sea levels have beenvery stable. And that is going
to change. And it's going tochange very, very quickly,
starting, you know, soon in thenext couple of decades. So these
are conversations we need tohave.
Brian Czech (12:29):
Yeah, you can see it in places already, where, you
know, down on the Gulf ofMexico, and Chesapeake Bay, and
places where we've already lost-- half of some of the National
Wildlife Refuges in those areas,for example. Your chapter on
Vietnam is titled Doing MoreWith Less. So we like the sound
of that -- sounds very steadystate-ish. And the chapter
(12:52):
focuses on rice production,which often has a large methane
footprint. These rice farmersface growing challenges as the
climate changes, hence, the lesspart of the chapter title doing
more with less. So what'shappening to farming in places
like Vietnam? And where are theygoing to get their food?
Christina Conklin (13:13):
Well, I -- not being an agronomist, I don't
have an easy answer for you. Imean, I know that there are, of
course, projects that aredeveloping heat-tolerant grains,
and things like that. I don'tknow if they will keep pace with
the rate of change that will becoming in a few decades. It is,
(13:35):
you know, it's a major challengefeeding the world, and
especially when -- in especiallylike the rice growing countries,
those are really, I mean, noteven high, I think high risk
makes it sound as if somethingmight not happen, but sea level
will rise a meter in the comingdecades, and 40% of the Mekong
(14:00):
Delta rice growing area will beunderwater. So you know, these
are facts. Again, it behooves usto think of them as such not as
risks or probabilities, but asfacts.
Brian Czech (14:12):
Exactly.
Christina Conklin (14:13):
Yeah, I'm hopeful for science and coming
up with ways to keep the peoplefed. But of course, population
growth is one of the real risksof our culture right now. We
have outlived, we've outstrippedour planet in terms of human
population.
Brian Czech (14:33):
Moving over to a different part of the world. In
your chapter on San Juan, PuertoRico, you go back to the 2017
disaster of Hurricane Maria,where the death toll estimates
went as high as 4000. Based onyour account of the problem, it
wasn't just bad geographicalluck, but the bureaucratic and
legal confusion caused by PuertoRico status as an unincorporated
(14:57):
territory of the USA. Howtragically frustrating that must
have been for Puerto Ricans. Youthink we should expect a
geopolitical future of moreindependence and secession
movements?
Christina Conklin (15:12):
Well, it is interesting. I actually am
hopeful that that will happen.
And the chapter I wrote aboutthe Cook Islands in the South
Pacific also points at this ideaof greater autonomy for colonial
and formerly colonial nations.
You know, how do we, how dopeople have more say about their
(15:35):
their own communities, lives,and futures? And so it's -- I
was actually surprised to learnthat there's actually a UN
department whose whole missionis to move some of these small
island territories and far flungplaces, you know, into -- out of
-- into a post colonial era,into an autonomous status. I
(15:59):
think there will be more movesfor that, I think there is
energy moving in this direction,both because as I mentioned, of
the sort of indigenous claims,and rights, and the rights of
nature is another interestingarea of law that is developing,
that I think will move thingstoward, more toward locality,
(16:22):
and more away fromglobalization, I guess is the
simple word for it.
Brian Czech (16:28):
Well, Christina, we've got a few more questions
for you, including about thefutures you envision for the
disappearing places. But first,we need to take a short
non-commercial break with JamesLamont. Take it away, James!
James Lamont (16:47):
Hello, listeners.
We hope you're enjoying theshow. If this episode has
inspired you, and you'reconsidering any creative methods
to advance the steady stateeconomy in 2022, there are lots
of ways that you can communicatethose ideas with us. Our podcast
page at our websitesteadystate.org is open to
public comments. And you canalso find email addresses for
all of our staff. On socialmedia, we're active on Twitter
(17:07):
and Facebook. Just search eithersite for CASSE. And if you need
another way to get in touch withus, we're sure that you'll find
a creative solution. And now,back to the show.
Brian Czech (17:20):
Welcome back. We're talking with Christina Conklin,
co-author of The Atlas ofDisappearing Places. Before we
get to the future, as I alludedto in part one, let's talk for a
bit about the artistic methodsyou used, Christina, in The
Atlas. You rendered the maps inyour book using an
ink-on-dried-seaweed process. Itmakes for a pretty unique
(17:42):
presentation, kind ofreminiscent of the maps of yore.
Tell us about so-called"sea-lettuce" as a medium, and
why you chose to work with it onthis project.
Christina Conklin (17:53):
Yes, well, I spend a lot of time at the
ocean, as I said, lucky enoughto live near it. And I began
collecting all of this abundantseaweed that was washing up on
our shores, and playing with it,really, this is what artists do,
luckily. And I found that whenthese sort of the big sheets of,
(18:14):
they call it sea-lettuce. Theywash up, and when it dries, it
shrinks a bit, it turns intosomething like a kind of a
parchment paper that does looklike the old fashioned maps, it
has sort of a veiny livingquality, which I really liked.
And then it bleaches out overtime the chlorophyll dissipates,
(18:34):
and it becomes again, like thiskind of creamy color. And so I
just started playing with that alot. And then transposing the
actual published scientific mapsthat climate scientists are
developing in these many, manyresearch studies to show the
shrinking of the Arctic icesheets, the sea level rise as it
(18:55):
will be in coming decades andcenturies. And so that kind of
light painting on the seaweedand then layering that onto a
Google Earth map to give somegeographical reference points,
does kind of marry this kind ofnew data with old timey look.
(19:16):
But also using the product ofthe sea to illustrate the issues
in the sea, which to me was agood reason to go with this
material.
Brian Czech (19:25):
Yeah, well, it was quite an effect. I'm glad you
did that. Early in The Atlas youwrote about ecological
thresholds or tipping points,and you displayed this fairly
well-known graphic by now onplanetary boundaries from the
Stockholm Resilience Center.
Kate Raeworth helped topopularize that image in
doughnut economics. And then ofcourse, we took the donut and
rolled it out into asteady-state diagram. A
(19:47):
"breadstick" we called it, withGDP on the Y axis. I guess I
don't need to tell you this,Christina, you as an artist, but
the old adage that a picturespeaks a thousand words was a
real winner, wasn't it?
Christina Conklin (20:03):
Absolutely.
And to that end, I would love tolet people know that there are
art projects going on now, as wementioned earlier to help
visualize this change, not justclimate change, but all of the
interwoven economic and socialcrises that are rolling up
together at this point. And I'mpart of a project called
"whatsnextforearth.com." That isartists responding to the video
(20:27):
course put out by RichardHeinberg, and the Post Carbon
Institute. It's called "ThinkResilience." And it lays out,
you know, the interconnectionbetween where we get our energy
and how we create our economies,and what assumptions we make
around those things and howthose have created the problem
(20:47):
that we're in, and how we canwrite new stories to write a
different future. So anyway,there are artists who are
responding with visual artworksto these challenges of resource
depletion, and populationgrowth, and such. And I would
encourage people to look it up-- whatsnextforearth.com -- as a
(21:10):
way to, again, just take theartistic impulse and try to move
beyond words in conveying someof these powerful ideas.
Brian Czech (21:23):
Well, I guess proportionately how many artists
out there, do you think, knowabout the need for a steady
state economy now? Do artiststend to be more or less aware
than the average citizen aboutlimits to growth?
Christina Conklin (21:37):
You know, unfortunately, I'm going to say,
it's not very well-known. Andthere are some of us, you know,
working hard to spread the word.
I first learned about it as apossibility -- I had never even
really heard of it until about2015 -- when I went to a big
conference on process philosophydown in Pomona College. That was
-- it was looking at where weare in the world from lots of
(22:01):
different perspectives. So Ijust think it's an idea that
hasn't, doesn't really getenough airplay. And, you know,
we're working on it, as are you.
But I think artists like so manypeople are really in the culture
that, you know, we're the fishin the water, right? It's hard
(22:22):
to see the water when you're init. And artists have been --
typically have kind of gone to amore of a like a Marxist model
or, like they understand thesystem is broken, don't have a
full understanding of why, andhow, and what to do about it. So
there are those of us who areworking to to educate artists so
(22:42):
that artists can then educateothers.
Brian Czech (22:46):
Well, we noticed that in one of the sidebars of
your book, you did bring out theconcept of the steady state
economy, which of course wereally appreciated. And then, in
fact, you introduced a number ofterms in the book. And one of
them, it seemed that you reallytook too is the term
"transilience," which you wroteabout in your concluding
(23:08):
chapter. Now, you know, E. O.
Wilson just left us a few weeksago. In fact, we eulogized him
on our last episode. And Ed wasa big proponent of consilience.
Christina Conklin (23:19):
Yeah.
Brian Czech (23:19):
So what, yeah, what's the difference between
consilience and transilience?
Christina Conklin (23:25):
Yes, well, I read Consilience, his book on
that topic, and came away with afeeling that he really just
wanted everybody to agree withhim. And that would be called
consilient thinking.
Brian Czech (23:41):
Don't we all?
Christina Conklin (23:44):
That does sound nice, right? So I think it
had -- so my academic backgroundis actually in religious
studies, and I have tremendousadmiration for and respect for
the need and drive among humansto understand our place in the
world. And that's, that hasexisted in every culture through
(24:07):
time and looks like, you know,different religious traditions
and philosophical traditions.
So, to me, Consilience didn'treally incorporate that element
of human culture in a way thatspeaks to me. Transilience, you
know, these are all just words.
But the idea, "silience" is theidea of jumping, right? You can
(24:29):
either be "resilient," which isto jump back, to bounce back, to
have the skills and strategiesto become whole again.
Transilience is the idea ofjumping forward, a
transformative change. And theidea that you can make creative
leaps rather than incrementalchange. And so I like the word
(24:51):
to posit it, as as an idea tosay, can we jump? Can we leap?
Do we have to do small, small,incremental changes to
economies, and cultures, andclimate policies, etc? Or can we
just make the leap? And my hopeis that we can, and that I
think, and I think it's beenshown, you know that this is
(25:11):
nonlinear change. And thatimplies, and actually assures
that, yes, we can make leaps.
Brian Czech (25:19):
Well, you know, we've been contemplating here at
CASSE, the value of stories,storytelling, and narratives
quite a bit lately. Now you'vedeclared that [quote]
"imagination is needed to tell anew story, one that refuses
heroes and villains but ratherfinds the threads that bind all
to all, such stories are besttold quietly, like fables,
(25:42):
because the world is scaryenough, without all the
screaming." Can you elaborate onthat for us?
Christina Conklin (25:49):
It's interesting that you chose that
quote, it's one of those that Ibelieve in my very bones. But of
course, it's hard to maybeelaborate on too much. It's just
I, you know, have faith inhumanity that we can find a way
forward that we are meant to bein relationship with each other
(26:12):
and with nature, and that all ofthe fear, and panic, and denial,
and rage right now is, you know,I suppose psychologically
understandable, but not reallywhat we are called to be as
people. And so I just -- I havea tremendous amount of hope in
(26:36):
people finding each other andcreating small, functional
ecological civilizations. Sure,you're, you know, well familiar
with that term, that, you know,that we can have communities
that function well. And it's noteasy. I mean, none of this is
easy. I don't want to pretendthat it is. But I just, I think
(26:58):
it would be too easy to give upand to say, we're doomed. But I
refuse to do that. I'm a defiantoptimist.
Brian Czech (27:07):
Oh, sure. Yeah, I mean, we like to use the
metaphor of the runaway train.
And even if we are on one, it'sa matter of how bad the crash is
at the end of the proverbial dayy'know, we can slow it down and
make things a lot less bad thanthey would have been. But that
brings us to the speculativefuture histories, portions of
the book, these are all set inthe year 2050. So how did you
(27:31):
and Marina Psaros go aboutdeciding what to write in terms
of optimism versus pessimism? Soin Chapter Two, for example, you
speculated that Pakistan is in aworld of pain by 2050, whereas
neighboring India not so much.
Are you extrapolating somegeopolitical trends? Or is it
(27:55):
more about raw ecology or what?
Christina Conklin (27:59):
Well, I would actually say this is where the
artistry came in, you know.
Fiction is necessarily wrong.
It's not meant to be predictive,we really just used these
sections of each chapter as away to draw forth perils and
possibilities, I guess, youknow. To point out in the
(28:22):
chapter that involves India andPakistan, for instance, what it
looks like to in India, wherethey have green tribunals,
currently, and if they make themeffective environmental
mechanisms to transition theirculture and economy away from
the most damaging impacts thatare currently there, you know,
(28:44):
that's actually -- could be thistremendously hopeful next --
transilient next step. Whereasif Pakistan, you know, follows
old habits that have gotten, youknow, have led to lots of
political corruption and otherthings that also exist in India
now -- it was really just afictional exercise in compare
and contrast, right? So each ofthese fictional narratives about
(29:08):
the future is really purelyspeculative, but hopefully is
pointing to better and worseways to make decisions, what we
might want to do and what wemight not.
Brian Czech (29:19):
Okay, and then in your chapter on the Cook Islands
in the South Pacific, youimagine a future where the
government authorizes mining ofthe sea floor for minerals.
Vaguely reminded me of theplotline in that new flick Don't
Look Up, where they're trying tofigure out how to mine that
comet. You know, your book isfull of dramatic stories, the
true ones unfolding as we speak,plus the potential ones you've
(29:42):
envisioned. Which one would youmost like to see up on Netflix?
Christina Conklin (29:49):
Well, I actually -- that Cook Islands
chapter is interesting, Isuppose because it actually came
true sooner than I predicted inthe 2050 chapter. I imagined
that they would start sea miningin 2022. But they did it in
2021. And they used COVID as anexcuse, that the drop off of
(30:12):
tourist dollars meant that theyreally needed to quote-unquote
"diversify their economy" andcreate this kind of dependence
on deep seabed mining, which isa new and unstudied technique of
raking the sea floor ofminerals. And so that's already
happening. And that actuallywould be a fabulous movie
(30:33):
because there are ecologicalheroes who have been fighting
this, there is politicalintrigue and infighting, and
self-serving businessmen andmega corporations. And the whole
thing is right there actually.
It would be a great miniseries.
But sadly not with the end thatwe would hope at least not yet.
(30:55):
You know, again, I always havehope that justice will prevail.
Brian Czech (31:00):
In the name of GDP is sounds like could be a title
for that. Well, Christina,thanks so much for being on the
show today. You're an extremelycreative thinker and producer of
different types of products thatare going to help for a long,
long time in helping to raiseawareness about limits to growth
(31:23):
and the need for degrowth towarda steady state economy. Hope you
come back again in a few months.
Christina Conklin (31:29):
Yeah, well, thank you so much. I've enjoyed
the conversation.
Brian Czech (31:48):
Well, folks, that about wraps her up. We've been
talking with Christina Conklin,artist, activist, and co-author
of The Atlas of DisappearingPlaces: Our Coasts and Oceans in
the Climate Crisis. The Atlasgives a deep dive, so to speak,
into the oceans. Now I don'twant to misportray this truly
(32:08):
unique book. It's not so much adeep data dive, but somehow a
deep thinking, deep reflectiondive that must be seen to be
appreciated. And just becauseit's not an atlas of the
International CartographicAssociation, let's not shrug it
off either. It's a far betterroadmap than Atlas Shrugged. I'm
(32:32):
Brian Czech and you've beenlistening to The Steady Stater
podcast. See you next time!
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