#109 - Courtney Coppinger

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What happens when an elite athlete rejects pressure and runs purely for joy? Courtney Coppinger's remarkable transformation from burned-out track star to trail running standout offers a blueprint for finding success through authenticity and boundary-setting.

A Kansas native and All-American steeplechaser at the University of Kansas, Courtney's path took unexpected turns after representing Team USA internationally in 2019. She candidly shares her journey through multiple "retirements" from professional running, the personal struggles that led to identity crises, and the profound healing that ultimately brought her back to the sport—but on entirely different terms.

The turning point came when Courtney set an uncompromising boundary for herself: no nervousness, no pressure, no expectations. This radical shift in mindset coincided with joining the Brooks team, where she was refreshingly honest about wanting to be valued as a person and mentor first, rather than promising championship results. What followed was startling—a breakout 2025 season featuring podium finishes, race victories, and ultimately selection to represent Team USA at the World Mountain Running Championships.

Beyond the trail results, Courtney offers wisdom about balancing athletic pursuits with wholeness, describing how she's found fulfillment through coaching (co-founding Wild Rights coaching collective with Grayson Murphy and Rachel Tomajczyk), community-building, and embracing a life outside corporate constraints. Her perspective on success as something flowing from joy rather than striving provides a refreshing counterpoint to traditional athletic narratives.

Whether you're battling burnout, questioning your relationship with competition, or simply seeking a more sustainable approach to performance, Courtney's story demonstrates how honoring your authentic self can lead to unexpected breakthroughs—in running and in life.

Follow Courtney on IG - @cpcop__

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
What's up, boys and girls, welcome back to the Steep
Stuff Podcast.
I'm your host, james Lariello,and I'm so excited to bring you
guys an episode today withCourtney Coppinger Probably
first team, all badass this year.
It's been really exciting tofollow Courtney's season in 2025
.
I gotta say Courtney kind ofcame onto the scene for me this
year when she got a fourth placefinish at the Sun of Peace

(00:22):
Scramble just off of theMountain Classic team where she
ran an absolutely amazing race,put on a clinic.
From there she went on todouble first place both of the
GoPro Games 10K as well as thePepe's Face-Off, and then
getting a top five finish at theTape Pack Trail, at the Golden
Trail Series race in Mexico, atthe Golden Trail Series race in

(00:43):
Mexico, and then to top it alloff with the cherry to be
selected to take GraysonMurphy's place on the Mountain
Classic team for this year'sWorld's Team going to Canfrank
in Spain.
Courtney has been an absoluteheater and it was exciting just
to get her backstory to talkabout her whys, what drives her,
what excites her about thesport.

(01:05):
You know what has led to justsuch an amazing season this year
.
You know we talked a little bitabout joining the Brooks team.
We talked about a lot of things.
This is a really excitingepisode and it was just an honor
to be able to have aconversation with her on the
podcast, because I've becomesuch a big fan over the last few
months.
So I hope you guys enjoy thisone.

(01:25):
You know, courtney has just anamazing story and I think you'll
get a lot out of this one.
So, without further ado, I hopeyou guys enjoy Courtney
Coppinger.
It's time.

(01:50):
Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.

(02:36):
We are live.
People.
What's going on?
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(04:20):
you guys.
So thanks so much.
Check out ultimate direction,courtney Coppinger.
Welcome back to, or welcome to,the steep stuff podcast.
How's it going?

Speaker 2 (04:28):
Oh, it's going well, I'm happy to be here and uh,
yeah, it's.
Uh.
What is it?
Wednesday, thursday?
Oh my gosh, I looked out of mydays now Summer.

Speaker 1 (04:38):
Same same, same Um.
Yeah, I'm so happy we're ableto put this together.
Like, like I said, I uh calledyour race at Sunapee um with
Danny and MK and like since thenI've been such a big fan and
you know everything you've beendoing this season, like
definitely like first team, allhonors, and now that you're made
the world's team, I'm like, ah,this is a great opportunity to

(04:59):
have a learn more about you.

Speaker 2 (05:01):
Yeah, totally, uh, maybe for the audience, like,
let's do, let's do like the thebackground, talk about kansas a
little bit, talk about um,steeplechase, talk about college
things like that yeah, sure,I'm a midwest native, so from
kansas city and uh went thekansas pipeline so I ran for

(05:22):
university of kansas and kind ofdeveloped into a steeplechaser
and then got the opportunity.
I ran five years and I wouldsay I was I didn't believe in
myself or my coach or my programreally into the last year and I
really bought in and kind ofhad like a you know, world
altering year for myself and gotthe opportunity to be

(05:45):
All-American and set the schoolrecord in college which then
ultimately catapulted me intothe professional running track
circuit.
I graduated in 2018 and movedto Flagstaff, arizona, to pursue
running and my graduate degreeat NAU, which worked really well
hand in hand, and so I was ableto jump into some pro teams out

(06:09):
there, had a few opportunitieswith a few different teams,
ultimately landed at the verybeginning of the dark sky
distance team which is supportedby Under Armour now back in
like 2019.
And then r the pro circuit fora bit on the steeple chase I
went and represented the U S?
Um back in 2019, um, my firstinternational team and steeple.

(06:35):
And then kind of classic COVIDhit and your whole world changes
again and got burned out offeeling like I was a hamster
running on a wheel andultimately like have a kind of a
funny story of how I got intothe trail world but was in
Flagstaff in the mountains andended up running some trails and
then ultimately leaving thetrack for a little bit and then

(06:57):
I've been flirting with kind ofthe hybrid sort of deal sense,
um, but yeah, I mean there'slike a lot there that you can go
into.
But that's the long story supershort.

Speaker 1 (07:10):
Amazing, amazing.
Let's get back to college.
I do want to talk about whatyour experience was, running D1
and running at a big school likeKansas, especially the steeple
as well.
Can you talk a little bit aboutyour experience there?
Like, I know so many athletesthat have gone D1 and it's
usually really split Like, uh,it's very 50, 50.
Some people have really badexperiences and some people have

(07:32):
amazing experiences.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
Yeah, that's super fair question.
Um, I had an absolutely lovelyexperience, like I.
If I were to redo it over andover again, I would pick the
same program, same place, samepeople.
Um, I was recruited right afterthe program had won um, they
were coming off the nationalchampionship win and track, and

(07:55):
so I was being recruited duringthat season and so they, like,
when they won the track andfield championships in 2013,
they were really, uh, focused on, like you know, sprints and um
field events and wanted to buildout their distance team, and so
I was recruited with, I think,eight or nine of us, which is a
big incoming freshman class um,and we kind of changed the

(08:21):
distance program um, for for thebetter.
We ended up qualifying the teamin 2015 for the national
championships in cross countryand, uh, that had been the first
time that that that crosscountry had qualified for
nationals, since, I want to say,it was over 20 years, if not
more, and so, um, that wasreally big um kind of marker

(08:46):
there.
We also, um, I was a part of theteam with bryce hopple and
sharon locati and got to see,you know, sharon kind of pave
her way and who she is today, asan airthoner and bryce said now
, you know, both of them areolympians, finishing super high
in the olympics, and I was kindof right there with them and us
three really kind of had a lotof momentum of like, hey, you

(09:09):
guys, we can come from not a lotand do a lot with this if you
buy in and trust.
And I think the majority of thereason why we're able to change
that program for the better wasinstilling a really healthy
culture.
You know, you say there's asplit in the NCAA and a lot of

(09:31):
my friends if not most of myfriends that have been part of
big D1 programs have been caughtup in really poor culture on
teams and my coach did a reallygood job too.
And I would say our incomingfreshman class, the eight or
nine of us like did a reallygood job to hone in on proper,
uh, culture that just wassustainable and long-term and
ultimately for each other.
And then, if any at any point,any person kind of got out of

(09:52):
line with that or struggled in away which you know is going to
happen, with whatever eatingdisorders or, you know, team
gossip, whatever it is that justso classic in the running world
.
I think we were able to likehave a really strong foundation
and core to that team, and thatum ultimately made my experience
really exciting and healthy andand really positive overall.

(10:14):
My sister actually she's fouryears young or five years
younger than me when I graduatedshe was an incoming freshman to
that same team, and so it wasreally cool because we've had um
up up until last year 10 yearsof the coppinger girls running
on in that program, which isreally cool.
So, um, yeah, it's, it was areally positive experience

(10:35):
that's so cool.

Speaker 1 (10:37):
When you were being recruited like was kansas number
one on your like how?
How was the school listing like, was there other schools you
wanted to go?
Like, how does how does the?
I didn't, obviously didn't goD1.
What was your like experiencelike in the recruitment process?

Speaker 2 (10:50):
Like, oh, my gosh crazy.
It's like blast from the past.
I haven't asked this questionin so long.
It's so good, okay.
So I went to an all girls, aprivate Catholic school, um,
high school.
And so I thought, oh well, thisis what I know and this is what
I want.
So I'm going to kind of put outfeelers and respond to the

(11:11):
coaches that are from the smallprivate schools and I'm going to
get the heck out of Dodge, I'mgoing out of Kansas, I'm going
far away.
So I visited the most randomplethora of schools.
It's not even worth mentioningbecause it's just truly so
random.
And now I look back and laughat that, because my father was

(11:32):
the one that was like you shouldmake sure that this is great
and I love this for you andyou're getting recruited there
and you're going to get schoolpaid for Awesome, love it.
But make sure you go in andjust see a state school Coach.
Know, coach Wood is recruitingyou.
You should just go and see.
It's right down the road, youcan go whatever.
And so I was like, okay, yeah,I'll go.
And I went and I was like, oh,okay, so I see why people go to

(11:57):
these big state schools.
There's so many more resourcesthere, you know, like the
athletic facilities, theacademics that they had, surely
they weren't the same as these,like tiny small schools that
were more academic focused.
But I found my niche ultimatelylike in, you know, like a
bigger school making it muchsmaller, and like my ultimate

(12:20):
decision was, honestly, it's sofunny and I was like, if I can
get into the honors program atKU, then I can make this big
school small and I'll totally besold on it.
And I ended up getting in and um, and that was like gave me the
ammunition to be like, okay, youcan also focus on academics and
athletics at a school.
Um, that would, we will helpyou with both.
So, yeah, that was like therecruiting process.

(12:42):
I think it's so funny.
I didn't even visit any otherbig state schools.
I was recruited by a handful inthe Midwest, but I never even
gave them the time of day.

Speaker 1 (12:52):
Interesting as an honor student, like obviously,
like it sounds like you tookacademics extremely serious.
How hard was it to balance boththat and running at a high
level?

Speaker 2 (13:02):
Oh, I mean, I feel like I'm a pretty driven person
and like the more that I cantake on usually the better.
I am motivated with all thethings, up until a point you
know, like we're not invincible.
But yeah, I love school, alwayslove school.
I'm the oldest of three girlsand grew up kind of like
teaching them in a classroom,thinking I would be a teacher
one day and begging my mom to goand buy school workbooks at the

(13:28):
teacher store so I could dothem.
And I'm not a brainiac, but Iam someone that does really like
academia and academics and endup pursuing a graduate degree to
go and do that, and so yeah, itwas fun.

Speaker 1 (13:42):
Wow, so cool.
Back to back to running.
I, uh, I gotta ask why thesteeplechase?
Just because it's.
It's so interesting to melooking backwards now at how
many steeplers are so good attrail running and like why that
transfer is so like, for somereason, so easy for a lot of
steeplers, like why did youselect the cheap or pick the
steeplechase?

Speaker 2 (14:06):
So my coach in college said that he looks for
two main things when he's, whenhe's recruiting within the team
to to who will be like a steepleor, and he looks for someone
that's not injury prone andsomeone that has a good, a good
head on their shoulder.
Someone that's like able tocompete and like is a tough
competitor.
Um, and I think he saw that inme right right off the bat and
and I and I had, you know, kindof been steeple, curious, like

(14:27):
right away as a freshman, and umstarted just hopping in with
the older girls and doing somedrills and and whatnot.
And then, you know, ultimately,like I it was where I found,
like that was my thing.
Um, also, if, like, you see anysort of live stream or any
photo of any time me running, Itower over most of the women,
especially I don't even knowlike someone the other day was

(14:49):
like I saw a photo of you on thegolden trail, start of mexico,
and you were just like 10 feettaller than everybody and that's
truly correct.
Like I'm not that tall, but Ifeel like runners are very short
we all are how tall are you?
I'm like around five, nine okaythat's pretty tall, yeah, but.
I swear my legs are five feetof that and so, um that, you
know that was also very.
It lends itself well to thesequel.
It was like, oh yeah, the 30foot, whatever, like jumps are a

(15:12):
step for me, whereas the othergirls I was competing against I
felt like, had you know, theywere running faster than me, but
they had a bit more of a hop todo over that.

Speaker 1 (15:22):
That's true.
That's true.
Having long legs makes it somuch easier.
I'm not very tall and my wife'salways like why are you so good
at running?
Because you're so short.

Speaker 2 (15:32):
I'm like thanks, I really appreciate that.
Well, honestly, like in a trailworld, the short, small steps
really help as soon as it getsreally steep.
I think I have a disadvantagebecause I'm just super long.

Speaker 1 (15:41):
Well, it's funny you say that because Allie Mack
super tiny, like super long.
So well, it's funny you say itCause, like Allie Mack, super
tiny the first time I saw likeEl Housine and like Patrick
Patrick's really little too,like they're not very big at all
.
So, yeah, it's, it'sinteresting why like, yeah, most
, like really like high endprofessional runners are
actually very tiny.
It's interesting.
Um, I gotta ask you thisquestion just cause I ask it to
every stapler why do you thinkthat transfers so well to trail

(16:01):
running?

Speaker 2 (16:03):
Oh, I think it's because, like, our brains like
are like okay, don't throw me ina 30 lap flat race.
Like give me something that Ican, that can make it more fun.
It's like something that canspice it up, um, and that's
where I felt like I, like Ishine shown, and it was like the
jumps were the fun part whereyou could you.
There's like strategy with it,just like running downhill on a

(16:24):
super techie trail race.
There's strategy in it and it'slike how are you going to come
off that water jump?
How are you going to come offthat descent?
Um, and so I feel like we'rekind of all wired in a way that
was like that was really fun anda thrill for us.

Speaker 1 (16:45):
So cool as a like D1 steeple or D1, just any of d1
athlete.
Like how are you?
How was your goal setting?
Like like were you?
Was it to achieve the oldamerican standard?
Like, was it nationals?
Like how do you guys think?
Or how were you thinking, likein the program?

Speaker 2 (16:54):
yeah, I think that's.
That is like.
Uh, the answer to that is likeit was a five-year process for
me, especially just like withinthe ncaa five years of figuring
out who I was and how I wasgoing to compete and how I was
going to train.
I had a really rocky firstthree, three and a half, four
years, um, and you know, justlike finding my headspace and

(17:15):
not getting super nervous andbeing able to maintain the
training and, um, it took untilreally that fifth year and I had
alluded to it of like truebelief in myself and in my coach
and my team in a way thatallowed me to like kind of take
a step back on the like nervesand relax a little bit into it
and know, okay, I'm going tolike step up on the starting

(17:36):
line.
I actually now remember wherethis mindset changed.
This is crazy that you asked methat question.
Okay, so there's a Boston, uhlike BU meet in December every
year and it's like where theNCAA stars go and qualify early
on coming off the cross countryseason, trying to 5k, to qualify
them for 5k indoors, um, indoorchamps later in that next year,

(17:59):
and my coach asked me during mylast year to go and pace that
race for Sharon.
And around that time it waslike Chris Schweizer and Sharon
were crushing the 5K, 10k scenein the NCAA and I was flown out
there with Sharon and my coachto pace all these NCAA stars to

(18:22):
get their national championshipqualifier.
I mean, grayson Murphy probablywas in that race too.
And I remember the wholeprocess of like okay, am I good
enough to even be here to pacethese girls?
And like, I had such a likerevelation during that time
because I stepped up on the line.
I paced them you know whateverit was a mile halfway, whatever

(18:43):
stepped off, watched them finishand I came up to my coach and I
was like huh, those girls areno different than me.
And he goes I've been trying totell you that for three years.
He's like you're right there.
And I kind of get chills evenrecalling that, because I think
that was a big mindset shift forme of like, oh wait, I deserve
to be there and I'm just as goodas them.
And it's even fun to kind of bethe underdog and I think a lot

(19:10):
of the success I've had in 2025kind of comes from reminding
myself of that headspace.
It's fun to be the underdog andbe like no one's betting on me
but I'm just as good as thesepeople, so let me show them.
And so I think my goal settingprocess came from really just
trying to find out, uh like,where that headspace and that
mental space could take me.
Um, I knew I was fit and I knewI was a competitor, and so I

(19:31):
was like, okay, let's lean intothose really big strengths that
I have and and try to pull outof being freaked out from races.
Um like, pull away from thatheadspace and then lean into the
competitive grittiness.
And that ultimately got me, youknow, and my coach by the end
was like you are able to acceptthe school record, you're able
to be all American.
And I think I truly startedbelieving that it wasn't

(19:53):
something that I, you know, setout to college and it was like
I'm going to be an all American.
Even to this day, I say I'venever even stepped into the pro
world saying I want to be anOlympian.
It was never my goals.
My goals were always liketrying to be realistic with
where I was at and what could beobtained in that season,
because the seasons change andyour fitness change and your
mind space changes and your jobchange, everything changes, and

(20:16):
so you have to be.
You know, I'm somebody that'ssuper flexible and I think the
rigorous athletes that like puttheir head down and you know,
like Olympian or bust, I reallyrespect, because that's a whole
different breed.
But I think in that time I Ireally had to discern that I was
separate than that I wasdifferent and uh, so what was

(20:36):
going to work for me was wassomething different, and so it
was more like piecemeal, of likeokay, you qualified for
regionals, you've been atregionals before, why not go to
nationals?
You're right there.
Okay, we'll go to nationals.
And You're right there, okay,we'll go to nationals.
And now it's like, okay, let'sbe all American, you're ready to
be there.

Speaker 1 (20:51):
And so you know, it's not maybe the typical way of
setting goals, but, um, it worksfor me and um, yeah, it might
be hard to describe this, justbecause I don't know, maybe you
think about it a lot, maybe youdon't, but like that's kind of
rarefied air to become anall-american like, how do you,
how do you view that?
Like, how does that?

(21:12):
Is that something like youthink about a lot, or is it no,
something I did and like, oh,it's in the past?

Speaker 2 (21:15):
yeah, I don't think about it often.
It's so funny that you'reasking me questions about it,
because I'm like this is sofunny, I like don't even.
You know, the only time evergets brought up is really with
other people where they're like,oh, she's all American civil
change and I'm like, yeah, Iguess I totally forget.
Um and uh, yeah, I mean itdoesn't like it is one of the
highlights of my career, but itisn't like something that I'm

(21:37):
going to die on.
Like, oh, at least I got that,you know, because, again, it's
all about the mindset of thesport and, um, if I didn't have
that, I think I'd still be happy.

Speaker 1 (21:47):
So cool.
Let's talk about going proafter college, like moving out
to Flagstaff doing the NAU,going to school, and doing that
Were you.
You were going to school whilealso running at a professional
level, balancing both.

Speaker 2 (22:00):
Yeah, I started my PhD at NAU and while I started
that I started joining kind ofgroups on Flagstaff.
I had a relationship with BenRosario, who's also from the
Midwest and had, you know, atthat point started the NAZ Elite
and was the head coach thereand so joined their group for I

(22:23):
think like six to eight monthsand so if you're connecting dots
now you can see, okay, she waswith Aaron Clark, she was with
Grayson Murphy.

Speaker 1 (22:31):
Yeah, and so Rachel.
Rachel too, like Rachel Smichakas well, or no?

Speaker 2 (22:36):
Rachel was out in Flagstaff at that time, not in
that group, but we all started.
You know, the wheels started toturn back in 2018, 2019, when
we were all like, huh, are webuilt for this?
Um, and so I trained with an AZelite for a hot sec and
realized that, um, the marathonlife was not for me, not going

(22:57):
to be a road 10 K girl of roadmarathoner.
I still do not have anyinterest in doing that.

Speaker 1 (23:02):
And so, um, I training like is it the burn,
like the burnout of the training?
Like, what about it?

Speaker 2 (23:08):
I don't know.
I yeah the training, but alsojust the race doesn't excite me,
and I'm someone that's like theonly way I'm going to get
motivated to do anything.
I'm just not the tip.
I'm not your typical uh likehigh, strong type a athlete I am
like my coach now is startingto get to know me more, but I
told him from the beginning Iwas like I left my own accord, I

(23:29):
wouldn't run, so I need someoneto tell me go run.
What excites you.
Okay, let's you know the race isexciting me, so I'll get out
the.
I'll get the training done forthe races and so, yeah, there's
the marathon.
Doesn't sound fun at all.
Um, and so I trained with themfor a little bit and then ended
up joining the Under Armour teamin 2019, coming off like a
really strong year.

(23:49):
I placed like seventh at the USchamps that year and then got
to represent the US for thefirst time, and so I do look
back and see that that was ahighlight of my career, was
getting to go and I raced inBelarus, which is a really
interesting place to compete,and yeah, so I was racing
steeple with Under Armour 2019on.

Speaker 1 (24:11):
That is so crazy.
You wrote, I mean, a beautifulInstagram post about making and
we'll talk about this when wetalk about the world's team but
about the last time yourepresented Team USA in 2019.
I know you kind of went intothe experience of Belarus, but
maybe talk a little bit aboutthat, because I feel like, yeah,
trail running can be intense,but the stakes are not like what
it's like running, uh, you know, basically track and field like

(24:32):
at an extremely high level,like what?
Uh, how much more pressure ison that or how different is it?

Speaker 2 (24:38):
well, I think there's a lot of pressure and it's
really hard to go and make aworld team in track and then
compete.
Well, you know, like you almostneed that like one to get out
of the way, and so I was like itwas a sugar on top, like
sprinkle on top of a reallygreat season, right, like I like

(25:01):
it wasn't expecting to makethat team and it just kind of
was like whoa, okay, well, nowyou have to train for two more
months.
Now you have to go and race atthis high level.
Now you have to go and like bewearing the U S kid on the track
and, um, I mean, the experiencewas so special.
Belarus, if any, if you know,it's just like a really one

(25:24):
unique place and maybe a placethat will forever be changed
because of the political climatethere now, and so when we went
in 2019, it was right before allthe airstrikes, it was right
before, kind of the war timepicked up and we might be, we
might have been the last likereally large group of sport
oriented americans that were inthat country and they actually

(25:46):
were doing that event there as away to appease the EU and try
like it was a whole politicalthing, which was really cool to
be a part of.
And yeah, I mean I didn'tcompete well at it.
I think I probably got deadlast.
I don't even know if I everlooked at that result, but the

(26:07):
experience was valuable becauseyou get to see like the
individuals that are like fouryears, five years you're senior
and that have just like beenable, they're just dialed in it
right and these are the peoplethat have stuck around in the
track and field world for awhile and are competing at the
highest level, you know,consistently a top five in the
us and consistently making worldteams.

(26:28):
And and I think that was reallyspecial for me to like go there
and be like big eyes, like ohmy gosh, I'm just like, I'm just
out of college, I don't reallyknow what I'm doing, like this
is so cool, um, yeah.
And so I don't reflect on thatexperience all that often, but
it is a nice nice to do thatright now and makes me feel good
.

Speaker 1 (26:49):
Wow, that is so cool and especially like the
political aspect of it.
Like you know Belarus,obviously you know a lot of
political turmoil there, a lotof things going on in the world
and the fact that like be thelast team you know, sporting
team slash, like even Americanteam to go over there, that's
wild and it's like a memoryyou'll have for the rest of your
life, like something like youwere in this place at this
particular time, which is kindof kind of crazy to think about

(27:10):
yeah, on the days I wasn'tracing I was like riding on top
of tanks and shooting machineguns at like the local, like
museum thing.

Speaker 2 (27:17):
So it was crazy yeah oh yeah, it's like really
post-soviet, like kind of ohyeah, oh my gosh, yes, super
brutalist, yeah, I meaninteresting.

Speaker 1 (27:31):
One of my best friends was born in Hungary and
like he has the hammer andsickle like on his birth
certificate, I like big fun ofall the time about it.
Anyway, it's differentconversation, but like it is,
it's year for you where you or Ishould say 2020-ish, because

(27:51):
you said around COVID is kind ofwhere you kind of stopped going
professional and we're justkind of trying to find your
place in the running world.
Is that correct?

Speaker 2 (28:03):
think it was 2020.
Yes, the end of 2020 wasobviously covid and the golden
trail series.
They did this thing, which I'mnot sure if you're familiar with
and a lot of people don'trealize they did this, but they
still held their golden trailfinal.
But the way to get there was togo and compete in these

(28:27):
segments.
You know, asynchronous.
You just go and compete in asegment and the fastest person
on these segments, thesemountain segments around the us,
around the world, will getflown out to the azores for the
golden trail final.
And I remember I had raced thesunset tour like a 1500 and back

(28:47):
to back, like 1500 one week andthe 1500 next week and PR the
first week, pr the second weekon a roll right and I come off
of it and I come back toFlagstaff because I was in LA,
come back to Flagstaff and like,for some reason, I'd taken
three days off after 1500 and Ijust had this itch to go and do
that segment and it was a17-mile segment in the San

(29:10):
Francisco peaks of Flagstaff,climby, technical way, high up
all the things, and I justdestroyed myself doing this.
I mean I had never run 17 milesto begin with one.
I remember I took one gel andcouldn't even finish it.
I mean, this is like I don'teven know how many hour effort.
I fell like multiple times andfinished and just felt this like

(29:36):
wave of euphoria.
I was like, oh my gosh, thatwas the best thing I've ever
done.
Then I couldn't walk for threeweeks after because I had never
been more sore in my entire lifebecause, like, I was strictly
trained to run like a littlehamster on a track.
And then I just go and sendthis, send it like as hard as I
could, hammer it, and you know,I had the leading time up until

(29:58):
the last day and then somebodycame and took it and and so I
didn't end up going to thefinals.
But the the funny thing is Ijust like I think that got me
hooked.
You know, I just was like, oh,there's something there for me
and like the fact that I'venever done anything like this
and had a fairly fast time.
And, um, I was like, oh, thisis cool and exciting and new and
fresh and I need this.

Speaker 1 (30:18):
Wow, so many what ifs with that too.
Like what happens if you wouldhave cause?
Like that was the year I thinkWamsley went out of Flagstaff it
was the one and only time wegot Wamsley there, um, but like,
just that was a really coolyear and they made a great video
about it.
So a lot of what ifs on if youwould have made it.
But I mean, you're running thegolden trail series basically
now anyway, so it doesn't reallymatter.
But still like if that would.

(30:38):
That would have been a veryeasy transition right away had
you just made it and gone fromthere.

Speaker 2 (30:43):
Yeah, the timing wasn't right, I guess, and that
is all right yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:47):
Yeah, Are you, do you ?
I see you training in Bouldernow.
Is that where you reside?
You're training?

Speaker 2 (30:51):
in Boulder Very cool.
Yeah, I just moved to Boulder.

Speaker 1 (30:53):
How do you like it so far?

Speaker 2 (30:59):
Oh my gosh, I love it .
I, you know, I've lived.
I lived in Flagstaff for threeyears.
I lived in Santa Barbara,california, for three years and
then last year moved to thefront range, um, last August,
and then like golden area, andthen just made the move up to
Boulder a handful of weeks agoand I feel like it is, you know,
the universe was just kind ofpulling me here and since, going
kind of full-time athlete andcoach this year, I was like, if

(31:20):
I'm going to do this, I'm goingto like do it the right way and
be in the community and be ableto build out community and, you
know, with brands and people andeverything here.
And so, um, it's felt, you know, really right, and I have
trails at my back door and soit's, it's lovely.

Speaker 1 (31:36):
So many good people to train with too.
You've got Lauren Gregory there.
You've a ton of folks Like it'sit's.
It's wild how many high leveltrail runners like in the scene
right now like are residing andtraining at a Boulder, which is
kind of cool.

Speaker 2 (31:46):
Yeah, we have like a really good community.
That's like, I don't know, goodculture, good people here, um,
which is fun, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:54):
It's cool, you know it's funny.
So going into the season like Ihad a rage, I had Rachel T on
um.
It was must've been right afterit had to have been right after
you guys got back from likeeither great China wall or I
think it was one of the China,it was the China race.
Um, and she had said to me,cause we were doing, we're just
talking in passing and she hadsaid, you know, like, when
you're starting to, you know,courtney is a great person to

(32:14):
talk to.
And she was kind of giving mejust like recommendations.
And I'm thinking to myself I'mlike Courtney, courtney, like
why have I not come across youbefore?
And so I place and like havingan amazing race and amazing day,
and I was like, oh, that makessense.
That's why, uh, you wererecommended.
So maybe let's talk about getinto your season now and just

(32:37):
kind of like, this year has beenlike a really pivotal year for
you.
Just on the scene, like notjust Sunapee, you had a great
race at China wall.
Um, you know, now you're on theworld's team and you're going
to be going out to compete in,uh, ken Frank at September.
Like, let's dive into that.
Like, did you just shift yourfocus this year?
Like you kind of said, yeah, Irelocated to Boulder.

(32:57):
I've been doing, you know, kindof going more professional in
it.
Like, is that what made theswitch?
Or like what, what has made thechange for you?

Speaker 2 (33:05):
Oh, there's a lot to that Um for you.
Oh, there's a lot to that um.
You know, I always joke and thepeople that know me best always
joke with me about it but Ihave gone through like three
different retirements in thesport, um, from like 2019 until
basically last year.
I had quit the sport forseveral different reasons, um,

(33:28):
and so there's been like a lotof reworking mentally and
internally, a lot of things thatplay into why this year is
going the way it's going.
Um, and I was basically, youknow, in a spot where my mental
health wasn't doing well and Iwas just caught up in like

(33:51):
identity crises of like, oh mygosh, like, am I a runner?
Am I, you know, pursuing myother career?
Like, who am I?
And being caught up in like theconstant cycle of like having
to get better and if you're notimproving and you're not
stepping on the line and winning, then you're an absolute
failure.
And so, going through massiveupheavals and iterations of new,

(34:12):
new me, you know, um,ultimately marked by like, uh,
leaving a relationship that Ineeded to leave, um, uh, early
last year, and part of all ofthat, you know, launched me into
probably the hardest year anddarkest season of my life, um,
and you know, launched me intoprobably the hardest year and
darkest season of my life.
And you know, with the dark,really heavy times come a lot of

(34:36):
growth and fruit, and I knewlike I was in the pits and I
knew I was in the tunnel, but Iknew at the end of that there
was going to be light and fruitand something was going to come
out of this.
Something was going to come outof this and so, through a lot
of healing last year, um, andjust like personal growth and
therapy and all of the reallyhard things, uh, I started to

(34:57):
come back into myself.
Um, and then a lot of like thatself that I was coming back
into was like my little, littleCourtney self of, like somebody
who I knew, I knew well and hadlike feelings of and touches of
over the last six, seven years,but lost sight of her, um, and

(35:18):
so, coming into this, likeactually ending 2024, I was
still sponsored by Under Armouron the trail, um, and that
sponsorship had ended and I, youknow, basically was like, okay,
I think this is the end of myrunning again and that's okay.
Um, I've gone through a lot andI I don't really know what's
next.
And so I think this is justlike a sign to give it up again

(35:43):
and that's okay, like I'verestarted my whole life.
Um moved across the country,you know, met new community, new
people, all the things.
And so I'm like, well, this isjust part of it, just part of
this shedding and rebuilding inmy life.
And like, literally a few weeksafter that sponsorship had ended

(36:05):
, or I was told it was ending atthe end of that year, I had a
conversation, was reached out toby Adam Chase, who's in Boulder
and he was building, helpingbuild out the Brooks team for
this year and they were reallytrying to invest in um, you know
like develop developmentalathletes.
And I told him, I said I'm Idon't think you call, I qualify

(36:26):
as a developmental athletebecause I've kind of done there
and been on the scene a bit.
But if you guys want to take achance on me and believe in me,
here's my story.
And I was really candid withhim about some things and I was
just like I've just been goingthrough it and I'm not going to
sit here and tell you I'm goingto go and win UTMB or win a
world championship, but I'lltell you that I'm going to be a

(36:48):
really good team member and Ican be a mentor because of what
I've gone through.
And he took that informationand he um, you know, went back
to the sports marketing team andthey came back and I had
another conversation with themand they were like we see you
for who you are and we value youand we want you to be a part of
this team.

(37:09):
And I think that, similar tothe other sponsorship ending,
that was also a sign of like huh, maybe I'm not done yet and
that's maybe okay.
And so I took October, november, december basically off of
running, didn't have a coachHired a coach in January, matt

(37:29):
Daniels in Boulder.
I had been recommended him byseveral people and once again,
it was like leaning into whatthe universe was telling me of
like, okay, if you are going todo this, you're not going to do
it alone, you're going to do itwith the people that love you
and support you and know you,and it's going to be, it's going
to be right.
It's not going to be out ofspecific pressures or um, tied

(37:50):
up in an unhealthy relationship.
It's going to be for you, um,and in a really healthy way.
So I hired Matt and I told him.
I said, hey, I, this is mystory.
And once again I was candidwith him.
I said I'm not the type ofathlete that's going to go out
and like run all the extra miles, like I'm going to need a
little bit of help.
Um, I know I'm capable, I knowI have it in me, but I just I

(38:13):
need someone that understandswhat I've been going through and
what I've gone through, um, andcan see my potential and work
with me, because I'm a work inprogress and I, yeah, with, I
think, the help of um, matt,matt Brooks.
And then also like meeting mynew partner, who came alongside

(38:33):
me too and was like, hey, likeyou don't have to be done with
this, like this can be a newseason for you if you want it,
but don't force it, you know.
And so I had three kind of likebig support systems already
built in that were like, yeah,we, we're here, whatever happens
happens, but there's nopressure, there's no expectation
.
If you try it out, if you dipyour toe in and you don't want

(38:54):
to do it, it's okay, um.
And so I think, coming back into2025, like an entirely new self
of like I had shed a lot um ofthe past and learned that I
could seek joy in running.
Before running, to go a littlebit into it before running to me
was like an escape from a placewhere I wasn't healthy and from

(39:18):
a place specifically in arelationship that wasn't serving
me, and running was the oneplace I could go to like, feel a
little bit myself.
And so now that I had done allthis work this last year, I felt
like whoa, I am myself Now.
What can running be?
Now, running is going to besomewhere that brings you joy
and is a place where you cangrow into and see again like you

(39:42):
did in college and you did inhigh school and get back to that
.
And so I that was the mindsetcoming into this year and again,
like I didn't sit down and sayI'm going to, I wanted to
qualify for worlds.
It was never even on the radar.
I stepped up at Sunapee and youcan ask my Brooks teammates, you
can ask all of the girls Iraced.

(40:03):
I was saying I don't care aboutworlds, I just want to race
this race.
I truly do not, and they knewit and, um, it's even funny Like
I they were going back on thetype B personality thing.
They we had a Brooks house forSunapee and, um, you know,
everybody was up the race atnine.
Everybody's up like five, five,30, whatever I literally sleep

(40:24):
into, like seven, 30, and rollout of bed.
I'm like, oh, shoot, okay, wegot to go To me.
It's all about the experiencesand the places and the people.
And so at the beginning of theyear, I put together a schedule
of races that sounded really fun.
That's why I went to Asia.
I'd never been to Asia and Iwas like, if Brooks is going to
help me, pay for this and sendme here and Golden Trail is

(40:45):
going to accept me with allthese like crazy, random results
in the past, like, yeah, I'llgo do it, we'll go see a new
part of the world.
Um, I signed up for son and Pbecause, you know, brooks was
putting together a kind of acamp around that and I wanted to
be part of that.
And, um, you know, everythingabout my schedule this year was
was about like refinding the joyand, um, I've written about it

(41:12):
in my social media like the, theabsolute boundary that I set
for myself was if I'm going tore-enter into the sport and for
2025.
I am not allowing myself to getnervous, and there's no pressure
expectation for any race, andthat was every day I wake up in
it, I'm reminded of that.
So you know, yesterday I did myfirst ever double workout of my
whole life and I remind myselfnope, you don't get to get

(41:33):
nervous for this, this is justexciting and see what it does.
You know, there's noexpectations on paces.
Throw them out the door, don'tlook at your watch, whatever it
is, um, and that like set thefoundation for the year.
And so I've been really workinghard to like tune that mindset
of no pressure, no nervousness.
You're running for you becauseyou're happy now and this is the
girl that you know you are andthought you could be 10 years

(41:56):
ago.
And so that is a long-windedstory to tell you my approach to
this year and where it came outof.

Speaker 1 (42:03):
Wow, I love it.
That's a beautiful story.
Thank you so much for beingcandid and being open to tell
your story.
I have to add to one thing it'sbeen really interesting.
I've gotten to meet and knowquite well a lot of your Brooks
teammates and so many peoplehave sung your praises, like
Sydney Peterson, anna Gibson,dan Kurtz.
So many people have talkedabout you and brought you up and

(42:23):
that's part of the reason why Iwas like I have to have a, a
conversation with you, we haveto get you on the pod, but just
like from a leadershipperspective and a mentorship
perspective like that seems tobe, that role that you have is
very noticed.
It seems like like they like,you're very admired in that team
, which is very cool yeah,thanks, I appreciate that yeah,
um, all right, let's talk aboutI can ask you the world's

(42:47):
question now that that you'relike you got fourth at Sunapee.
You were right there, you made,you made.
Now you made the team.
We all kind of had an inklingand maybe you have more
background information to thisthan I do Like I only know so
much.
But like we all kind of had afeeling that Grayson was going
to go up and move to themarathon or to the short trail
distance.
How long did you know?
Like did they approach you andtalk to you about it, like long

(43:09):
ago?
Or like how long did you knowbefore it was announced?

Speaker 2 (43:12):
Well, grayson is one of my best friends and my
business partner.
So the moment across the finishline at Sunapee, I mean I knew
that she was going for that team, the other team, and so you
know, I think I got a text fromher and she was like there, the
other team, and so you know, Ithink I got a text from her and
she was like there's no one I'drather have had in that fourth
place position and I'm going todo everything I can to to let us

(43:33):
both go to Spain.
That's so sweet, yeah, and soLike I wasn't like putting my
mindset in a place where like,oh, I'm going to go, because I
had no idea, like she could alsogo and have raced the 50K and
not liked it.
And she did for you know 24hours and then came back and was
like actually, maybe I do likethis, and so we have been in

(43:57):
constant communication.
I feel like we text severaltimes a week and so I like kind
of knew where everything was atand, you know, had heard a few
things from other people of likewell, you know, you're not the
automatic person that gets in ifshe does decline her spot.
I'm like, yeah, okay, so youknow, once again, I'll let
everything else decide and thenwe'll go from there.

(44:19):
And so I didn't know until Ithink they announced it july
15th I think, like the july 5thor 6th or something, um, and so,
yeah, I got a call from pauland he was like hey, you know,
grayson gave up her spa.
We picked her for the team andand, uh, I think everybody you
know was really on board withyou having a spot, and, um, they

(44:42):
figured you'd say yes, but Ijust wanted to call and make
sure.
And so, yeah, yeah, it was kindof a crazy thing of like, okay,
like I'm supporting Grayson asa friend, all, obviously, I want
us both to go and I want her todo what she wants to do.
Right, if she came off the 50cane didn't like it, I, I wanted
to be her biggest fan of like,then go to the classic because
you could, you could still win aworld title, you know, um, and

(45:04):
not like putting pressure onanyone or anything, but yeah, so
it was an easy yes for you.

Speaker 1 (45:08):
Then, like, did you or did you take time to think
about it, or did you have?
Oh, it wasn't easy.

Speaker 2 (45:12):
Yet it wasn't easy.
Yes, I will say my mindset thisyear has been really dialed.
I'd say my lowest point wasBroken Arrow when I decided not
to go and race the Ascent andthe 23K and I had a little minty
bee and had to go and camp inthe mountains and be out of
service for the weekend becauseit was ultimately what was best

(45:35):
for me was to not go to thatrace.
I had, you know, been racingearly.
My season started earlier thanmost and they'd done a lot.
And you know, going back to thewhole, like really goal of the
year was to keep this mindsetand like if I was going to go to
broken arrow, it kind ofthreatened that mindset.
I could get caught up and Icould get nervous, and then I
wouldn't want to come off thatand be like, oh my gosh, like

(45:58):
I've all the work I've done isgone, and so we made the
decision to not go to brokenarrow.
Um, but then I watched the racesbefore and then ended up having
to leave and, um, I don't evenknow what question you asked
here and why I'm rambling onabout this, but um, yeah,
basically, uh, oh, I saw them dothat and I saw the ascent and I

(46:22):
saw like three of my like bestfriends make the team, like Anna
, sydney and Jess, and Hillaryis a teammate too, so four
really great people.
But like Jess is one of myall-time best friends.
Like Jess is a big reason whyI'm into trail running and our
stories go back for a while fromflag stuff and um, we see each

(46:43):
other often and and to see hermake that team, it was almost
like, oh my goodness, I want tobe there with you guys.
So it's like you know, moreless of like a decision and more
of just like, yeah, I want togo party with all you guys on
the trails and and have fun inSeptember.
And it works great, so yeah.
And then Grace and Megan to meI mean it works great, so yeah.
And then Grayson making me Imean it was like, oh my gosh,

(47:05):
all my friends, so why wouldn'tI go if I have the spot?

Speaker 1 (47:08):
It's a giant party Like Ken Frank's going to be
wild it's going to be it's goingto be a good time, Are you like
?
Are you going to go out toEurope beforehand?
Are you going to like what'sthe plan?
Are you going to do any of themore golden trail series races
Like, what are you going to dofor the rest of the summer?

Speaker 2 (47:21):
So I ended up going to Mexico last minute after the
broken arrow Minty B, I decidedto go to Mexico to secure points
for the golden trail final, inthe case that if I had made the
world team then I didn't need togo and get more points.
And so thankfully it worked outin a way that I placed really
high at Mexico and had a reallygreat race there and then also

(47:44):
made the world team.
So came back and rearranged myschedule.
I had um on the calendar uh,austria next weekend, or yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:55):
And then I was like yeah, I was like I don't need to
go to that.
I um also got asked to be amentor on the trail team's trip
to Slovenia and we're puttingtogether like a little uh,
developmental like us team there.
And uh, when Andy texted methat I was like huh, one second,
please hold.

(48:15):
I like called Matt and likelooked at the course and I was
like I think this is actuallybetter for my schedule.
What do you think?
And Matt was like a thousandpercent, you need to go to
Slovenia and do these races.
So I'm going to go race theworld cup finals, um, an uphill
race on the 23rd and then like aclassic style race on the 24th,
which is just way moreconducive to the world champ
style racing, um, and then soI'll go to Slovenia for a week

(48:38):
in the end of August, come back,train a little bit more here,
and then we'll go to Europe fora month, um, because we'll do
worlds and golden trail final.
So stay over there forSeptember, october.

Speaker 1 (48:50):
Wow, that's a heck of a schedule.
That's going to be a fun one.

Speaker 2 (48:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:53):
Yeah, it's got to be.
I don't know.
I just there's going to be alot of hype and excitement
around worlds and I know it'sjust pretty cool to have like I
feel like we're in.
Maybe I'll agree with this.
We're sending a squad likeespecially the women's like
mountain classic team, thatobviously the the short trail as
well Vertical team they're allamazing, but like I can't think
of it.

(49:13):
There's no like one week teamLike everyone's really good
saying that I have been ravingabout that all week.

Speaker 2 (49:23):
I was like when usatf came out with the full roster I
was like, okay, this is thebest team that they've ever sent
for trail.
I mean, it's just a testamentto like the trail world is
picking up and like these worldchamps stuff are, you know,
becoming more legit.
I think for a long time we justpieced together teams and send
people over there and you knowwhatever.
That was awesome.
But I think now people arestarting to like put more stock

(49:43):
and value into that and brands,of course, and there's more eyes
on it.
And, you know, having peoplelike katie scheid and jim
walmsley, you know, be on thetentative roster, like that's
lovely.
And and yeah, I was looking atthe women's side.
I was like every single one ofthose women is a sponsored trail
athlete, which is crazy.
I don't think any other yearthey could say that.
And the women are just I don'tknow.

(50:04):
I think we have a really goodshot to mix some things up.
I mean, especially in theclassic what's like three
incredible athletes and me and Iget to be a part of that.

Speaker 1 (50:13):
So it's a squad.
Yeah, I, it was.
Like I said it was not only anhonor to call your guys's race
at Sunapee, but like and I saidthis to Danny and MK like
multiple times, like yo, likethis is this is a team to beat.
Good luck to the.

Speaker 2 (50:24):
Europeans Like have fun with that.

Speaker 1 (50:26):
Um, so one of the things that was cool you brought
up like Jess Walmsley, I had noidea that like cause I know
obviously Jess and Jim like livefor the longest time like in
you know and still kind ofreside in Flagstaff.
But it's neat how everybodykind of knows everybody in the
trail space, like it's veryinterconnected yeah.

Speaker 2 (50:45):
Yeah, I mean living in Flagstaff.
I feel like you.
Well, if you live in Flagstaffor Boulder, you just come real
connected, real fast.
And living in Flagstaff, forthe three years that I lived
there and then again last yearfor six months, I mean I just
felt like I found family thereand and yeah, jess and I go go
back to the original time that Igot into trail running and she

(51:05):
was like a mentor of mine in away of like she, she, she was so
amazing because she was like,wow, you are such a talented
track athlete, but let me showyou like the way of the trail.
And so Jess and I have shared somuch in like just being able to
like level each other of likewe're both like have so much

(51:27):
that we're bringing in to ourrelationship, of like I can
bring the speed and trackbackground and she can bring
like the ultra expertise andstuff like that.
And we have we have justabsolutely hilarious stories
from you know my first few timesin the Grand Canyon running
with them and and whatnot.
And so it's been also reallycool and like heartwarming to

(51:48):
see her progression in the sporttoo, because back then she was
just like yeah, I'm doing it forfun.
It's great, and I work a joband support gym and doing this,
and now she's making that hercareer too, and and so it's been
really cool to see both of ourpaths and um yeah, so special
relationship for sure.

Speaker 1 (52:06):
So cool and it was amazing to see her make the the
uphill team, the share like, orthe vertical team, like.
I think, um, I think, like veryhow do I say this?
Like she should be taken muchmore seriously, like in a lot of
ways, which I think is reallycool.

Speaker 2 (52:20):
She's one of the best climbers in the U S like so
good, yeah, yeah.
She doesn't know that orbelieve it, but she is big time,
big time.

Speaker 1 (52:30):
Um, I want to talk to you a little bit about coaching
like working, and you obviouslywork as a coach as well,
correct?

Speaker 2 (52:35):
Yeah, yeah, grayson, rachel and I started the wilds
rights coaching collective lastNovember and so yeah, yeah, we
have been running with that.
It's been really fun what is itlike?

Speaker 1 (52:46):
uh, like, how do you like working with athletes and
just doing the whole coachingthing?
Like is it?

Speaker 2 (52:50):
yeah, I really love it.
I, um, rachel and I were partof another country coaching
company that kind of.
We started when it was in itsinfancy and flagstaff, and you
know we rachel is one of my bestfriends and we have talked so
many years on like dang, like itwould be so fun to be our own
bosses and like to just do itour way.
And so when we decided to do itwith Grayson last year, we were

(53:13):
like, okay, how do we make thisdifferent?
Because, like everyone, andtheir brother seems to be a
running coach.
And so I'm like dang now I'mjust like part of the cliche and
it's like no, like we serve arole and like don't do that,
don't self-deprecate.
But I, we were like how about,like we serve or like we try to
aim at, like all train athletes,so somebody that all three of

(53:35):
us have represented the US onthe trail and track, which is so
cool, like that there's I don'teven know if you could find
three other people or a otherperson that has done that like,
especially a female.
And so we all were like, dang,we have something here, so let's
aim at the all train athletes,somebody that wants to crush a
road marathon, but then comeback in the spring and do an

(53:57):
ultra or sub ultra racing, um,whatever it is, and so I think
that's been really fruitful tosee, like that's.
That's been our story.
And so now we get to use ourstory to help others in their
story and make you know, makethem believe that they can be
that unicorn, um that we allthree are too, so so cool.

Speaker 1 (54:18):
No, I think it's like .
I mean, it's really special too, Like you said.
To add to that, like you guyshave some, of like the craziest
resumes of like literally anypeople in the trail world.
So not to not to plug it toohard, but I'll put it in the
show notes.
So if you're looking for morepeople to work with, I'll.

Speaker 2 (54:33):
I'll put it in.

Speaker 1 (54:35):
Let's talk about like your relationship as far as
like Matt goes and like havinghim, because you know I've
matt's been in sport a long time.
I've always looked up to matt.
Um, he and I used to live inthe same town and, uh, he moved
up to boulder, become one of theboulder boys, the boulder
people, but, um, like I said,like I said, always looked up to
him.
What is it like working withhim as a coach?
Like from a coachingperspective?
Like, do you do a lot of volume?

(54:57):
Are you more volume runner orless volume?
like what is what is thatstylistically for you?

Speaker 2 (55:01):
Sure, well, matt like knows his stuff.
Like Matt is like someone thatfrom day one, I knew I was like,
oh, you get in the weeds andyou nerd out about this.
This is great, I love that.
Please do this with my trainingand tell me how to train.
Um, and so he's been.
I've had like a handful ofcoaches and I've I feel like

(55:21):
I've also had a handful of thosecoaches just really hard,
strained relationships of likelack of trust or lack of
understanding of like who I amas an athlete, and ultimately
that just like leads to likedisappointment on both sides.
And so it's been really so coolto see Matt come alongside and
be like okay, let me learn aboutyou, because you're different

(55:44):
than you know, so-and-so andso-and-so, and so, you know, I
ran with him this morning and he, you know, it's great to have
somebody that's in person andthat can see me and, you know,
sometimes be out there onworkouts or pace me or whatever.
I think that's been reallyspecial too.
But in terms of like how Itrain and volume, I'd say like a

(56:10):
pretty classic sub-ultra typetrainer where I'm like doing you
know, 50 to 60-ish miles a week, high vert, so high number of
hours, but by no means I'm a bigvolume person, um, coming from
the track world, I just neverwas.
I thrived at 55 to 65.
And so I'm going to stay there.

(56:31):
Because if I'm doing 65 on thetrails here, that's, like you
know, 12, 13, 14 hours ofrunning a week with 15,000 feet
of climbing, whatever it is, um.
And so it's been cool to likeclimbing whatever it is um.
And so it's been cool to likesee the body kind of come back
to a place of fitness where I'mlike, oh, I'm really strong now
and it's like a total differenttype of strength.

(56:51):
Um, I do a lot of like steepstuff.
Um, oh, funny, because that'spodcast um, and that usually
just like, makes me feel reallygood.
I think I'm like a prettyaverage climber and pretty
average descender on like, andso that makes me pretty well
rounded and so I like gettingthat into my training.

Speaker 1 (57:13):
Yeah, Do you still do any stuff on the track at all?
Like I said, like I know,Grayson every now and then gets
like so a lot of people do getout on the track like a decent
junk.

Speaker 2 (57:21):
Yeah, I haven't, because last year, when I went
through all of the stuff that Iwent through, I was training for
the Olympic trials andsteeplechase.
Actually, it's crazy to saythat now, um and I, as I was
kind of in the process of uh,redoing my life and moving, I um
got two stress fractures in mypelvis from training on the

(57:42):
track and so I'd never had arunning related injury in my
whole life and so that, likereally scared me.
I think I just overdid it alittle bit, but mostly from life
stress, and so I've been alittle bit timid to go back into
the track.
But I have found that, like,the types of training that Matt
writes me for the mountainsmakes me really fit and I'm

(58:05):
really responding well to it.
Um, like, for instance, Ihaven't done a flat workout for
probably three, three to fourmonths and he wrote me a double
workout yesterday, my first oneever, like I said, and I did a
hill work on the morning and Ihad a flat like tempo in the
afternoon and the afternoon one.
I was shocked by what I wasrunning, because I don't run

(58:28):
flat, and it was really cool tosee the aerobic fitness
translate.
It's like oh, legs are strongand lungs are strong, so that
means you're going to run fast,even on a flat surface.
Um, and so I think I don't needall that flat surface stimulus
all the time.
It's nice to have every now andthen, but um, yeah, I just
think that the mountain legsmake me really strong.

Speaker 1 (58:49):
Wow, that's so interesting.
I training theory is so cooltoo, cause, like different
people, just respond differentlyto different things Like no two
people are the same, which waskind of neat.
Um yeah, I I've been working, II've worked with coaches a long
time and then I just startedcoaching myself and like I use
chat GPT and this stuff thatI've like figured out was chat
GPT up like damn.
Um yeah, I don't, I don'trecommend that to people.

(59:11):
Um so you mentioned you weregoing for your PhD.
Like what did you?
What did you study?
Or what like?
What do you do, likeprofessionally, with the PhD, or
did you do?

Speaker 2 (59:19):
Yeah, I started my phd I did not finish um, started
in like ecology.
I had done a lot of research umwith like restoration ecology
specifically.
Yeah, like big plant soil girlum, and thought I wanted to
pursue that for research andultimately become a professor.
And so I did that for a yearand realized I didn't want to be

(59:43):
bound by grant writing for therest of my life and I ended up
switching into a master's.
And I got a master's in science, education and learning because
I was like I love being in theclassroom, I love teaching the
plants and the soils and all ofthat, but I don't love like
being the one that's likewriting the grants.
And so I got a degree thatultimately, could you know, end

(01:00:05):
up I could teach at a college orcommunity college or high
school or whatever I wanted toteach um, and ultimately
actually went into educationresearch and so I worked in like
developing stem curriculum forminorities, working like
specifically with like boys andGirls Club and NASA grants that
had already been written andfunded but were basically like

(01:00:28):
working in a way to createcurriculum that engaged several
different types of communitiesand individuals to make them
believe that they could also bescientists one day, and so I
worked in that field for alittle bit.
And then I always say I movedto California and had to sell my
soul to the tech world becausebills went up and the rent went
up and that measly littleeducation salary is only going

(01:00:51):
to get you so far.
Earlier this year, um, I workedfor slack actually, which I feel
like is a product a lot ofpeople use, yeah, and then took
a step away earlier this year,um, with some layoffs classic,
everyone's going through themand it was like a really good.

(01:01:14):
It was the best timing for alayoff it was february and I was
like okay, I think once againthe universe is telling me here
that I need to just like buy into this running thing and this
coaching thing and there's a lotthat's going really well and I
can take the rest of the year toto think about what I want to
do with my next steps.

(01:01:35):
And as soon as I kind of madethe decision to not go back into
the industry and to give myselfa year off of work, doors like
flew open.
It was like, oh my gosh, I amworking with a small brand and
working for this nonprofit andbeing able to put my time in
here and be creative and all theother things that I knew I had
and could do started to come out.

(01:01:56):
And so now I'm like full-time,you know, athlete coach and
investing in just like communitybuilding and the running world,
which has been very cool andnot something I ever wanted to
do.
I always said I wanted to buildout my career and be a runner
and life changes, so I'm leaninginto this time.

Speaker 1 (01:02:17):
Yeah, Now I was going to say soul enriching and it's
like what a?
I don't know, I've lived andworked the corporate life for a
very long time now and I loveasking folks that are like kind
of full-time, pursuing their ownstuff, like you just get more
time to enjoy life, I feel likethat's kind of like a big thing.
And you, you probably agree.
I mean, we're going to intact.
Like you work stupid hours,like it's it's, it's.

(01:02:37):
You know and this is nothingagainst people that do it,
because a lot of people do it,if not most people but to be
able to be free and do thingslike that and pursue athletics
and to have more time to do thethings you want to do, I think
just leads to such a happier,healthier life it's really nice

(01:03:04):
and cushy and amazing and butlike you are a slave to that and
like everything else has tofall in the in the right place
and pieces to that, and so it's.

Speaker 2 (01:03:08):
It's scary to say like, yes, I'm going to make a
lot less doing the things that Ilove, but it's not scary to
know that, like I'm much moremyself and much more happier and
much more able to show up as afriend or like coworker or, you
know, business partner now thanI was in the past.
And so I don't know what thefuture holds in the corporate

(01:03:32):
world for me, if it does holdanything.
But I do know that like I'mdone being a careerist and
climbing that career ladderbecause it just isn't like, the
more you climb it, the more youlike pigeonhole yourself into a
spot that is harder to get outof.

Speaker 1 (01:03:45):
Yeah, no, it's a hundred percent.

Speaker 2 (01:03:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:03:48):
I could say I could literally do a whole nother
podcast on that topic.
I talk about it all the time.
That's funny.
All right, we're at about anhour.
Um, I do want to get someending questions, just cause,
just out of pure curiosity, I'mcurious who inspires you?

Speaker 2 (01:04:00):
Hmm, wow, that's a really crazy question to just
ask somebody right off, sorry, Ithink like I wouldn't say
there's like one person thatinspires me, but I think it's a
group of like people that arepursuing life in a way that is

(01:04:20):
well-rounded and integrated intocommunity.
So there are people in my lifethat are really strong community
builders and connectors, thatare go-getters, but can also be
really present with you and sitwith you, and those are the type
of people that inspire mebecause I can see them go out
and do incredible things in theworld, but they also come back

(01:04:42):
to their home or to their familyor to their place or their
people and are there for them,and so I think that's the type
of person I want to be, somebodythat is building community and
going after big goals but alsocan be at peace and myself and
at home and my family orwhatever that looks like.
So, yeah, kind of like a notnecessarily cop-out answer, but

(01:05:05):
but kind of a different answer.

Speaker 1 (01:05:10):
No, I really appreciate it.
Actually, it's actually been atopic I've been talking about a
lot on the podcast and justworking talking with other
athletes and individuals aboutit.
It's like you know, you meet alot of people in everyday life
that like it's more, uh, insular, it's more they're very about
themselves, right, they'retrying to protect me first and
it's, I feel, like, in societynow it's, it's.
It doesn't like make me upset,but I see more of it where like
folks just the idea and conceptof community and building

(01:05:32):
community and creating communityor giving, even just giving
back, whether that's in amentorship way or in whichever
way you can it's just like not atalked about thing and it's
just not as prevalent as I feellike it used to be, and I don't
know what that is.

Speaker 2 (01:05:46):
Yeah, for sure.
And especially like as you getinto the world of athletics,
like you know not to knockanyone particularly, but like
there are people that it's liketheir whole world becomes them
and it's all about them.
I think, in my pursuit of this,this life in general, it's like
I realized that in order to bethe best person myself, like I

(01:06:07):
do have to be other-minded andbuild that up support, support
system up around me and like,yes, do things that feel in line
with me and that I, I love, butlike part of that is like
pouring out and giving back andin a way that, yeah, feels
really fulfilling, and like Ican lay my head down at night
and not have to worry about allthe little things in my life,
because I know that my supportsystem is there and my community

(01:06:29):
is there and I'm working eachday to build that and into
something that is is wonderfuland beautiful.

Speaker 1 (01:06:34):
I think that's a good place to end it.
Courtney, thank you so much.
I really appreciate it.
I'm such a fan Like I reallyappreciate it.
I'm such a fan, like thank youfor coming on the pod and
hopefully this is not our lastconvo.
Hope to either see you on thetrails or interview.
I'll probably interview.
I think I'm going to dosomething for world to try to
get like some of the teamstogether.
Yeah, team round table chats orsomething like that would be
kind of fun.

Speaker 2 (01:06:53):
Where are you located ?

Speaker 1 (01:06:54):
I'm in the Springs.

Speaker 2 (01:06:56):
Oh okay, Nice together a little mountain
champs training camp um, in bunavista.
Oh wow, that's to you, let meknow I'll definitely dude.

Speaker 1 (01:07:07):
It'd be cool.
I'd love to come interview youguys.
Like talk?

Speaker 2 (01:07:09):
yeah, that'd be cool, I'll throw it out there to them
.
I think they're just puttingtogether it's like august 15th
to 17th of your round yeah, yeah, that'd be sweet.

Speaker 1 (01:07:16):
Keep me posted, let me know.
Like I said, I uh, I thinkthat's kind of one of the things
I really want to get into next,especially with this.
I feel like this is going to besuch a special year.
Going into worlds, like youknow, we've talked about, like
how stacked the teams are, butnot just even that, it's just
the folks that are on the team.
Like, who knows, this might beJoe's last, you know last worlds
, or maybe not, I don't know.
But like just having all ofthese really special people on

(01:07:38):
the team, like I feel likethere's a lot of good
storytelling there to help sharethese stories and have
conversations, so, and eventhings that, like you guys can
look back on in the future to beable to be like, oh yeah, like,
yeah, it was special.
So, yeah, yeah, let's keep meposted, let me know.
And, uh, this will come out inthe next, probably next week.
Um, thank you so much for yourtime and uh.
I really appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:57):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thanks so much.
This was great and fun way toreflect on my own journey.
It's like just as useful for meas it is for you.
Yeah, I'm going to pause it.

Speaker 1 (01:08:11):
What'd you guys think ?
Oh man, what a great episode.
I want to thank Courtneypersonally so much for coming on
the podcast.
I hope this is the first ofmany conversations as she
continues to develop in hercareer and just continues to
crush it on the the trailrunning scene.
So, uh, guys, before you getgoing, if you wouldn't mind, you
could find uh courtney oninstagram, you know.
Find her, give her a follow andsend her some words of
encouragement as she takes on,uh, just a gigantic season of uh

(01:08:33):
really intensive racing, um,especially going to worlds and
just going to be part of, likewhat I think is just going to be
such an unbeatable um mountainclassic team, like so loaded.
Um, yeah, we're sending, we'resending some squads for uh for
worlds this year.
It's going to be crazy.
Anyway, you can find her oninstagram.
That's going to be at cp copunderscore.

(01:08:54):
That's courtney coppinger.
Uh, give her a follow and uh,send her some kind words.
Um, guys, before you go, and ifyou did enjoy this episode or
any previous episodes, um,please give us a five-star
rating and review on Apple,spotify, youtube or wherever you
consume your podcasts.
That would mean the world to meso we can continue covering
this great sport of short trail,um, or sub ultra, however you

(01:09:15):
want to call it.
I kind of like short trailbetter, now I don't know, um,
but yeah, give us a five-starrating and review if you
wouldn't mind.
And uh, you know, let me knowin the show notes of the
comments why you like this.
Uh, or what, or what, or whatwe need to work on here.
Um, and yeah, we've got somecool stuff coming around the
corner.
Um, like I said earlier, therewas a.
There's a cool um, uh, cool uhcollaboration with sub hub that

(01:09:40):
we're going to be droppingpretty soon, and we've got some
good stuff coming out for seriesand all.
I've got a great previewepisode for series and all
coming out next week, um, with acool co-host.
You guys are a new co-host Um,so some good stuff out there.
Um, it's going to be a lot offun.
So let's look forward to on thehorizon lots of good episodes.
Um, hope you guys enjoyed allthis and I really appreciate you

(01:10:02):
uh listening along andfollowing along.
Have a great rest of your day,thank you, I'm out.