#123 - Ben Robinson

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What if the best prep for a world-stage 50K isn’t altitude at all—but rock, root, and relentless decision-making? That’s the case Ben Robinson makes as we dive into his Grindstone 50K win, an OCC qualifier that doubled as redemption after a brutal DNF during a rabies vaccine saga the year before. From Pennsylvania’s Roxylvania series to Alaska’s Mount Marathon chaos, Ben maps a season where the Northeast’s technical terrain becomes a training edge, not a compromise, and where joy beats pressure as a performance tool.

We trace Ben’s arc from Lock Haven long runs to short-trail evangelist, race director, and community builder. He breaks down what makes PA special—Heiner’s culture, Boulder Beast’s car-sized rocks, and Miller Mountain’s steep, clean design—then gets specific about permitting, landowner trust, and why a cookout can be the most important gear choice of race day. We go deep on Mount Marathon strategy (cliffs vs roots), how to commit on snowfields and scree without blinking, and why downhill skill is often the true separator. He explains the switch from pro-contract pressure to free agency freedom, how self-coaching lets him fit training around a full-time job and board roles, and how rebuilding his why—love of the sport, service to others, growth through difficulty—made him faster.

We also zoom out. Cirque Series growth in the Northeast? Good for the sport when courses stay honest. UTMB structure vs the Olympics? Keep the edges sharp and the terrain real. World Championships takeaways? Technical venues reveal depth; surprise performances are a feature, not a bug. Ben’s near-term path points to OCC, a Javelina 100 experiment, and a Skyrunner Series return, plus bucket-list aims like Transvulcania and Western States—not as résumé items but as pilgrimages worth the work.

If you’re into East Coast grit, skyrunning energy, and practical insight on training, race directing, and building a life that can hold it all, this one’s for you. Listen, share with a friend who loves steep stuff, and leave a quick rating or review to help more runners find the show.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast.
I'm your host, James Loriello,and today I'm so excited to
welcome Ben Robinson on for achat.
Ben, by way of NortheastPennsylvania, came on the pod
fresh off of his win at theGrindstone 50K just a few weeks
back.
In this episode, we talk about alot of stuff.
Ben's lived a lot of lives inthe sport, but he's also a very

(00:20):
influential and importantfigure, not just in his running
community, but in the runningcommunity as a whole.
Ben's a race director, anathlete.
He gives back to his communitythrough volunteering on
different boards, and he's justvery active, which I can really
appreciate and admire.
Ben and I got deep into theskyrunning scene across the

(00:41):
United States, or actuallyreally across the world, and why
we could use something like thatin the United States.
We talked about the Pennsylvaniarunning scene, which is kind of
neat, talked about thetechnicality, the Northeast,
just why the Northeast is uhkind of so important.
Um we got into his racingexperience and what he's been uh
really enjoying as of late.
Ben's been all over the worldracing, but we talked about some

(01:02):
of his favorite races.
Um this past year he competed inMount Marathon, and we got deep
into that, his experience thereand why he'll go back.
Um did talk a lot aboutGrindstone and his win there.
Um and yeah, it was just areally exciting episode.
Talked a lot about Ben'sbackground and uh his future in
the sport and what he wants todo with it.
So without further ado, I hopeyou enjoyed this episode.

(01:23):
Really want to thank Ben forcoming on.
Very important member of thecommunity and uh someone I
admire.
So without further ado, BenRobinson.

(02:38):
Ben Robinson, welcome to theSteep Stuff Podcast.
How's it going, man?
Nice, thank you very much.
It's going well.

SPEAKER_00 (02:44):
Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02 (02:44):
Yeah, dude.
I'm so excited to have aconversation.
Like, first off, I'm I'm just agiant fan of East Coast trail
running.
Like, I love the East Coast.
I'm originally from the EastCoast, so it's got a special
place in my heart.
So anytime I can have a EastCoast trailrunner on the
podcast, uh, it always uh it'salways special.
So thanks for coming on, dude.
Appreciate you.

SPEAKER_00 (03:03):
Absolutely.
It's definitely a special place.
It's so unique with the terrain.
Um, every every spot along theEast Coast is different for
their terrain.
So um, yeah, I'm excited to talkto you about East Coast.
Yeah, let's do it, dude.
Let's dive in.

SPEAKER_02 (03:16):
So maybe maybe for the audience uh that might not
be familiar with you, maybemaybe give me like the
five-minute elevator pitch.
Where you're from, because Iknow you you went to school
pretty close in Lockhaven.
So give me the college spiel aswell about your running in
college and and we'll go fromthere.

SPEAKER_00 (03:30):
Sure, yeah.
So I'm from a little town calledTunkanic.
Um, has about 2,000 people.
It's northeast Pennsylvania.
Um, I started running about 14years old, ninth grade.
Um, I played football,basketball, baseball, and was
like, you know, I want to trysomething else.
So I tried running and uh Ireally loved the people, but I
was really bad at it, and uh itjust worked out that um I I

(03:55):
stuck with it and and um I justreally fell in love with it.
So uh did did high schoolcross-country track.
Like you said, I went toLockhaven University um where I
continued to run and uh on theweekends I would go out and run
uh generally by myself, my longruns in the woods.
And uh coach, I don't think wasuh he loved that idea because I

(04:18):
was basically trackingcross-country, but I did it and
it was so much fun.
Um but I really fell in lovewith trail running after
college.
I moved to um Park City, Utah,um, which is just insane, and uh
the most perfect place to startreally liking the sport.
Um and after that I lived inBoulder, Colorado for a bit with

(04:42):
uh Andy Wacker and and uh oh mygod, you lived with Andy too?

SPEAKER_02 (04:46):
I feel like everybody in this sport or
that's been on a podcast hasbeen a roommate of Andy's at one
point.

SPEAKER_00 (04:50):
That's crazy.
I've heard that, yes.
It was it was awesome, and yeah,uh Andy does have a lot of a lot
of people in and out of there.
So uh uh there was a lot of goodpeople, especially like Matt, my
friend Matt.
Uh I took Matt Daniels' roomwhen he moved out.
Uh so we we just missed eachother there.
But yeah, I I moved out to ParkCity to start a uh a business uh

(05:15):
to help people post-collegiatelytrain for like it was like a
group to train for like a nextOlympic cycle, and uh that
didn't work out, so I I movedback home and then I tried to
start two more businesses andthey both didn't work out.
I just love I love trying newthings and seeing what works,
and um, so that's kind of alittle bit about me.

(05:35):
I just love trying new thingsand and sticking my neck out
there.
Dude, I love it.

SPEAKER_02 (05:39):
How did you so how did you find yourself in Boulder
then?
Was it more so business-wise orwas it chasing chasing the
trails?

SPEAKER_00 (05:47):
Uh so yeah, I was just uh I was whenever I find
myself bored, I like trying likeI just think of things to do.
So I was really bored one day.
So I reached out to my friend uhSam who lived in Minnesota and
said, Do you want to try tostart a business?
So we tried to start a businessin Boulder, and uh it was called

(06:07):
the No Sweat Box.
We wanted to start asubscription box for people that
wanted to to use it for like apre-race, uh just like
subscription box.
And uh so we had we had uh wehad like the products and and
the box made.
It just didn't get off theground.
So yeah, I moved to Boulder toto try to start a business.

(06:29):
And um instead I I diddoor-to-door sales out there,
and that didn't didn't reallypan out.
So uh I I eventually again movedback home and uh it was just
such a fun, fun experiencethough, for the time that I was
there.
I just loved it out there.

SPEAKER_02 (06:44):
Dude, I love that man.
I respect anyone that takesswings.
Like I I've myself started a fewbusinesses or tried to start a
few businesses that didn't workin my 20s and 30s, and like it's
it's interesting.
Like I think you get to learnthere's a lot of like things
you'll never learn in a day jobdoing stuff like that, and even
things you don't learn inschool.
Like they don't teach you inschool about LLCs, C corps,

(07:05):
S-corps, like a lot of likestructure, uh like business
jargon and all different kindsof things.
Like uh, and it's like such goodinformation that you'll take
away with you that you can applyto just life and and grittiness
as well.
I think there's a good crossoverbetween starting something,
following through with it,trying to make it work, and like
running, doing the same thingover and over and over again

(07:26):
with running, which is kind offunny.

SPEAKER_00 (07:28):
Totally, yeah.
I I I like I've spoken at acouple different high school
things, and like the two thingsthat I'd like tell them to take
away is like try new things inyour 20s, like that's the decade
to do it, and like thatfailure's okay.
Like, I'm I'm totally okay if Istart a business and it doesn't

(07:49):
work out.
I'm I'd like go all in on it,and if it doesn't work, it
doesn't work.
Um, especially like like cantranslate to running too.
You can go all in on a trainingblock and the race doesn't go as
planned, but you you tweak itand then try to get get make
sure the next one goes a littlebetter.

SPEAKER_02 (08:06):
Yeah.
Such a good metaphor for life,you know, dude, and it's funny
you say that because like Ithink about this all the time.
I come across folks that arealmost getting their own way
because they're so afraid tofail.
And it's like, oh man, like youjust gotta you gotta do it.
And then once you do it, and ifyou do fail, like you'll realize
like it's okay, like the worldkeeps spinning and you can go on
and continue to do other things.

(08:27):
Yeah, I don't know.
I experienced just that with alot of folks for some reason
today.
I don't know what that is.

SPEAKER_00 (08:32):
Yeah, I don't know either, but yeah, I just think
that we gotta get the messageout, try new things, have fun
and and see what works.
Take big swings.
Hell yeah.
Exactly.
Yep, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 (08:43):
All right, let's let's talk about Pennsylvania in
general.
So you ended up back in PA,which is uh I grew up in
Pennsylvania.
I lived there until I was inseventh grade.
Um I was I'm actually from BucksCounty, so not too far, not too
too far from you.
Um we didn't have like thePoconos, but we're like on the
other side of the Poconos, ifyou will, like closer to Philly.
Um dude, what a special place.

(09:04):
Like I I loved the Northeast.
Like I was just there for a goodmonth and a half this uh this
summer, and I'll go back nextsummer to go race just because
there's I think there's so muchthere on the short trail scene
that is just absolutely slepton.
Um yeah, maybe talk about that.
Like what's what is so specialabout it that that really is
special for you?

SPEAKER_00 (09:23):
Totally, yeah, you're totally right.
So Central PA has really likeCentral PA specifically has
really gone all in on like thisshort trail PA.
It's called the Roxylvaniaseries, and um it's mostly
Central PA, but it's spread outeast-west, and um, there's
everything you could do a a 5kseries, you could do a 50k

(09:47):
series, and anything in between.
And um they've really like atthe last three to five years
have really honed in on theshort trail specific.
And um, if you if you if anyonewants to try anything on the
east coast, try to get into theHeiner Heiner Trail Challenge.
There's it sells out like athousand people in like two
days, and it's like insane.

(10:08):
Um, it's just such a coolatmosphere start to finish.
Um, but I really think that itprobably started with that
Heiner race because um Craig uhCraig Fleming uh is the race
director behind that, and he'sreally branched out to make all
of these short trail like 25k islike the sweet spot, but you can

(10:30):
have everything from a smooth,easy 25k to um I put on a race
here where it's 25k and 4700feet gain, so it's like
everything from easy to a littlebit more difficult that you can
find on in on in PA.
So it's just a really diversespot, I feel like that not many

(10:52):
people think about so cool,dude.

SPEAKER_02 (10:53):
I stumbled upon I was lurking your Instagram
before this episode, and I foundthis Boulder Beast 25k.
That's like super looked verytechnical from some of the
photos.
I was like, oh, that's my that'smy jam.
Like, what is that all about?
Um we'll talk about your race aswell, then the Miller Mountain.
But what is this Boulder Beast?

SPEAKER_00 (11:09):
Totally, yeah.
So that's part of that series.
That's uh I there's a 25k and 25mile.
I did the 25 mile last year, andoddly enough, I wanted to do it
so bad because in in college wewould our cross-country team
would volunteer at the top ofthe boulder field and just cheer
people on all day.
So I was like so intrigued tolike do it one day.

(11:30):
So I'm happy I had the chance.
And yeah, there's this likemile-long section, like five
miles into the course, whereit's just a straight boulder
field within the forest.
It like you come out of thewoods and you're just engulfed
in this massive boulder fieldwhere the boulders are like as

(11:50):
big as your your car, and youjust have to hop and climb up to
the top of the mountain.
And uh, and it's just likeinsane how technical some of
this stuff is.
And uh like this year, likethere's there's like
rattlesnakes in the rocksometimes.
There could be bees.
There's like my friend got stunglike four times this year, so

(12:11):
it's just um insane.
Um like that course specificallyis so fun.
Like I did it last year, and Iwas having ankle issues, and uh,
I twisted my ankle like fivetimes during the race, and I'm
like, oh my gosh, I just need toget to the finish line.
That's crazy.
But yeah, it's it's an insanecourse, and um yeah, anything

(12:36):
from super super smooth to superbouldery technical we have in
PA.

SPEAKER_02 (12:41):
Oh, I love that.
So tell me about your race.
So you're a race director.
Um, it's the Miller MountainTrail Challenge.
Is that the race that you puton?

SPEAKER_00 (12:48):
I do, yeah.
My friend Kenny and I.
Um yeah, Miller Mountain is isin my hometown here.
Um, we do uh two races.
We do a a five mile with 2,000feet elevation gain and then a
25k with 4,700.
Um, then it's super unique umfor the area because um I mean

(13:12):
you you're out in Colorado, soyou have massive mountains, but
for PA like Miller goes frombottom to top, it's like a
1500-foot gain climb.
Um, and you do four loops, it'slike a four-leaf clover for the
25k.
And um a lot of it's a lot ofit's pretty like easy footing,
but there are some prettytechnical, like especially if

(13:34):
it's wet, you can go through youhave to go like through a creek
sometimes.
Um the five mile is super coolbecause like average gain per
per mile is 400 uh feet, so likeit's super steep.
Um and it's just I feel likesuper unique, especially to the
northeast side of Pennsylvania.
Um, but yeah, we've done it twoyears now.

(13:57):
Um that's that's such a fun raceto put on.
We have a nice cookoutafterwards, and um I do I do
three races, my friends and I,uh, but that one is super
special.

SPEAKER_02 (14:09):
Talk about the races that you do.
I'm so curious.
Like, how do you and also how doyou like race directing?
Like, I feel like that's such aspecial way to be able to give
back to the sport.
Like, you're obviously anathlete in the sport, you've
done so much in it, you've hadsuch a long resume, but like I
don't know, I always think aboutlike what else can you do?
Some people start podcasts likeme, some people start, some
people start races, and I thinkthe races are pretty dope.

SPEAKER_00 (14:30):
So talk about that.
Sure.
I've I've like putting on eventsis so exciting to me.
Um, like I've my first race Iever put on was when I was uh
13.
I did a a Christmas cheer milein town where I I put put
Christmas lights in this littlelittle area and you had to do a

(14:50):
mile around it.
So ever since then I've justbeen intrigued with with putting
on races.
And um so we talked aboutMiller.
I also put on a 10 10 mile roadrace um in the city um about 45
minutes away called the WyomingValley Run.
We have uh about a thousandpeople that come out every year.
Um that one's definitely thatthat one's very chariot.

(15:14):
Well, all of the races arecherry charity oriented.
That one though, we raise themost money.
Um we raised uh$10,000 each yearfor charities, and um that one
is definitely very road.
It's it brings out a a lot ofpeople, fast people.
And then um I also do a mileroad race in in town here uh

(15:36):
that my friend Kenny and I justtook over this year.
Um and it's been going on for 30years, so that one is super
special.
It's like such a neat andtight-knit part of the
community.
So um, but yeah, I love it.
It's just like like you said,it's such it's there's a lot of
hard work that goes into it,like putting everything
together, uh making it allhappen.

(15:58):
But at the end of the day, it'sjust so worth it to see people
smiling, coming across thefinish line, hearing people's
stories.
Um, like I don't have my ownstories to tell that day, but
just hearing everybody'sstories.
Um it's just a cool way, likeyou said, to give back.
And all the races have a charityum orient to them.

(16:19):
So um raising money for charityand and uh letting people have a
special day is is really fun.

SPEAKER_02 (16:25):
I love that.
It's such a good way to giveback to the sport.
I I gotta ask you this, like ifthis is just a in maybe too much
of an inside baseball question,but I'm just so curious because
I know in Colorado it's such apain in the neck to put on a
race because the permitting isis insane.
How is it in Pennsylvania?
Like, did they did they put up alot of barriers to entry, or is
it like not so bad with thepermitting?

SPEAKER_00 (16:47):
Where we are, it's it's it's great because um
Miller Mountain was justpurchased uh to be a state
forest, like uh it was uh threeyears ago in November.
So it's coming up on threeyears.
And so um I met with the theforestry people right after it
was purchased, and um we starteda good relationship.

(17:10):
So since there's not a lot oflike it's inundated, um, it was
so nice to just get in therefirst thing.
Um, so we haven't had anyissues, uh, thankfully.
Um there is a part of the the25k that goes on private land.
Um and the oh my gosh, I'm solucky because like it's such a

(17:31):
nice tight-knit community whereI'm from that like they're just
like, yeah, we want people to beon be using the the land.
We might as well have a racethere.
That's a bad thing.
Um so we have an aid station setup there, and they always come
out and and support people.
So um I'm just very fortunatethat we've had a had an easy

(17:52):
time getting that stuff set up.
That's so cool.

SPEAKER_02 (17:55):
Do you think you'll you'll put any more races on?
Like, do you the reason I ask isbecause you've raced all over
the all over the world, right?
You've done Meet the Minotaur,you've you've seen a lot of sky
racing and stuff.
It's just like it's I think thatthere's a lot of opportunities
specifically, and I thinkPennsylvania terrain in some
ways can can be pretty gnarly.
I think there's there's a lot ofright like opportunities for

(18:16):
cool races, uh, or continue tocreate cool races um to exhibit
more of like what the state hasto offer and just the northeast
in general.

SPEAKER_00 (18:24):
Totally, yeah, absolutely.
Uh I I in terms of building up,maybe, maybe I can add one or
two.
Um, so one of the couplebusinesses that I that I did not
work at, or it didn't work atwas in 2019 at the end of the
year, I was going to start a PAmountain series uh where it was

(18:45):
at different ski resorts.
And I had the places picked out,and uh then 2020 happened, and
um the the events didn't happenand nothing happened in 2020 or
really 2021 for the beginning.
So um then I very veryfortunately uh have the job that

(19:07):
I have today.
So I love the three races that Iput on, maybe one more, uh, but
we'll see what the schedulelooks like.
But you're right, there's justso many opportunities,
especially in northeast PA.
There's such cool terrain, butum there's not like a lot of
trail running in northeast PA,whereas in central PA, like oh
my gosh, there's so many cool,cool stuff out there.

(19:30):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (19:30):
Zach always used to talk about that frozen snot race
that he used to do.

SPEAKER_00 (19:34):
Yeah, that's a cool one.
That's right near Lockhaven 2,and it's insane.
It's in the middle of January,it's a half marathon with like
6,000 feet.
It just goes up, up, down, up,down.
It's like I haven't done thatone yet, but it seems so fun.

SPEAKER_02 (19:49):
It looks horrible.
Yeah, I love it.
Yeah, exactly.
What are your thoughts on,especially because you just uh
and we'll talk about grindstonein a minute?
Um, what are your thoughts,especially as a race director
now, with just with like forinstance, like the Cirque series
just came to town, right?
They're in New Hampshire and inum Vermont now, and who knows

(20:09):
where else?
Um you have UTMB kind of theyhave grindstone now, and it
seems like there they'll theremight be more races getting
bought.
Um do you think it's good forthe sport, or do you think it's
like what do you think is a racedirector?
Do you think it's kind of coolbecause it puts more shine on
the Northeast Trail scene?

SPEAKER_00 (20:25):
That's such a good question.
And I there's probably so many,there's probably so many
differing opinions on this, butum I personally love it.
Like the Cirque series, they'redoing such cool things.
That was my first trail racethat I ever did, uh, Snowbird
Cirque in 2016.
Oh wow.
I it was called the Discreakseries back then, um, and Julian

(20:48):
uh has just really grown that tosomething special.
Um but I love it because likeit's such a good like intro to
the sport.
Not like I mean those coursesare hard, don't get me wrong,
but they have a lot of media, soa lot of more people hear about
it for both UTMB and and Circ.
So I think that it it bringsmore attention to the sport, it

(21:11):
grows the sport, and then likethe grassroot races, like I feel
like as a race director, they'rethriving.
At least in PA.
I I can't speak to everywhere inthe United States, but um, I
think that it's just bringingout a new set of people that
haven't been in the sport, so Ipersonally love it.
Um I I love seeing like oh mygosh, the side story, like this

(21:36):
year um at Miller Mountain,people drove from Chicago the
day before, which is like a13-hour drive, just to do their
first trail race in Northeast PAat Miller Mountain.
And I'm like, I'm like, it'sjust so cool.
Like people drove that far fortheir first trail race.
I don't know how they found it,but they did.

(21:57):
And that's amazing.
Like it just gets new peopleinto the sport.
So from that perspective, I loveit.
Like it helps out the brands,um, it helps out the
professional athletes, it helpsthe people that are just getting
into it.
So I I personally think it's anet benefit.

SPEAKER_02 (22:13):
Yeah, same.
I mean, honestly, like I I won'tspeak as much to UTMB just
because I don't do as many UTMBraces, but like my jam is the
Cirque series, like Julian, I Icall a friend now, Steve White,
I call a friend.
Like they're what they'reputting on, and you know, I
don't want to give too much loveto Tom Hooper, but I'm just
kidding.

SPEAKER_00 (22:31):
That's right.

SPEAKER_02 (22:32):
I love Tom Hooper.
Um, but no, in all seriousness,like just what they're able to
do.
Like, I dude, I hope they put ona bunch more in the northeast.
Like, I'd love northeast racing.
And like I'll like I'll be atCannon next year.
I raced Killington this pastsummer, and I'll go back to
that.
And uh and I hope there's more.
I really just want more in theNortheast because it's I don't
know, it's just fun, it'sdifferent.

(22:53):
Uh like I don't know.
I train in the mountains inColorado all the time,
obviously, and it's like it'salways the same.
You know, you go out to themountain west, and for the most
part, um, you know, a lot ofit's similar, but you go out to
the northeast and it's acompletely different style.
It's technical, it's it's hard,it's steeper in some ways.
It's it's just different.
So I I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 (23:13):
I love it.
I those those two courses up inthe northeast there seemed I I
can't wait.
I really want to get out therethis year.
I was dealing with a a sprainedankle um for the first one.
I think it was Killian orKillington.
Um, but man, those pictureslooked insane.
Uh and that that part of theNortheast, like the boulders and

(23:34):
the roots are so so huge, and uhit's just so different than
really anything.
Um, but I agree.
Let's build it out.
If anyone wants, if they want todo one in PA, I'll help them
out.
That would be amazing.
Oh, dude, we'll put that outinto the world.
I'd like to hear it.
Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 (23:51):
All right, let's talk grindstone.
Uh, you just recently removedfrom the grindstone 50k where
you took the win and got anautomatic qualifier into OCC for
next year.
Dude, how does it feel?
Like it's a really not an easyrace.
Um, yeah, talk about it.
Talk about the course, talkabout the race itself, how it
went for you, and and then we'llkind of go from there.

SPEAKER_00 (24:09):
Sure.
I'm just uh I'm thrilled that Ihad the chance to go back.
So um I I competed in 2023 umwhen it was the golden ticket
race for uh Western states, andit was the week that I had to
get my rabies vaccine because Ihad a pit bull bite my face.
So I like I got the rabiesvaccine.

(24:31):
I went anyways, and I'm like, Iknow that this is gonna be hard,
but I'm gonna try anyways.
And uh to know it shouldn't havebeen a surprise, but it went
very poorly, so I had to dropout at like mile 35, and um
because the rabies vaccine justkicked my butt.
Um, so I was just like, man,these trails are in so cool for

(24:53):
the east coast.
I really wanted to get back andum and get to the finish line.
So this year I signed up for the50k.
It's a really cool course.
Those trails are super unique tothe East Coast because they're
really not technical and they'rereally flowy.
I felt like they were like madefor like mountain biking or
something, they were just reallyflowy and smooth, and um, so I

(25:16):
was so pumped to get down there.
Um, I was feeling so good thistraining block.
I kind of tweaked my training alittle bit this these past six
months to try something new.
And um uh yeah, it just felt sogood to to get to the finish
line and and um kind of get myredemption from a couple years
ago.
Dude, I love it.

SPEAKER_02 (25:37):
So you'll go, will you be going back to OCC or will
you kind of go up to CCC?
I know you've done you've racedboth, haven't you?

SPEAKER_00 (25:44):
I have.
That's such a good questionbecause I didn't I actually
didn't realize until uh thislast couple days that I could go
back up to CCC.
Um I'm like pretty intrigued todo OCC again because the last
time I did it was 2018.
So I keep thinking like I'd loveto race my 24-year-old self to

(26:04):
see how I compared to back then.
And um, I don't know, it's sucha fun course.
The 50k distance is so it's sucha sweet spot, and I feel like I
want to go have a really good, areally good um experience.
The 100k CCC was amazing.
I feel like I would pre I feellike I'm in more of a

(26:25):
preparation mode for OCC thistime around, though.

SPEAKER_02 (26:28):
I like it.
I you know what, and I thinkthat and not to continue to go
back and you know put shine onthe northeast, but I think that
there's I and this is just mepersonally.
I think at the Northeast it'seasier to get ready for a race
like that than it is in almostlike where I am in the Colorado.
And people are gonna drop theirjaws for saying that, but I
think the level of technicality,the straight the way the trails

(26:50):
are built are different in thenortheast.
Like, I think it's like forinstance, like if you were to
train somewhere on like NewHampshire, like I think it it's
such a better like trainingground for like a UTMB than
Colorado would be, in myopinion.
I don't know, it's my my thoughton it, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (27:04):
I mean, you see, David Sinclair moved back, Eric
Lapuma's doing awesome stuff upthere.
Um, Dan Kurtz.
Um, I don't know Dan as much,but um, I know he's doing some
awesome stuff, but yeah, youcould still get like you could
still get three to four thousandfoot climbs up there.
Um, like I did the PEMI loop upin New Hampshire.
It's a it's like a 30 30 mileloop with 11,000 feet, which is

(27:28):
like a great simulation forsomething like OCC.
Um, so yeah, the training's hereand like uh Miller Mountain,
like I have a I have a trailthat was that is on there that I
use for Mount Marathon, and it'slike it's uh average of 43% gain

(27:48):
or 40 3% grade.
Um so like yeah, there's a lotof steep stuff.
The only thing is the the um Imean you you guys have a great
uh benefit with altitude outthere, obviously.
A little bit, um, which is isawesome.
Uh, but you're right, like yeah,those if I do some training
camps up in up in New Hampshireor in the Adirondacks, like I

(28:13):
could certainly be ready forthose longer climbs.

SPEAKER_02 (28:16):
Oh yeah, no, for sure.
It's interesting, man.
It's it's that ultimatetrade-off.
I talk to uh athletes about thisall the time, specifically Dan
and I have chatted about this onmore than one occasion, where
it's like it depends on the typeof races you like to do.
Like if you're racing highaltitude stuff, then it makes
sense to live at altitude.
But if you're like for instance,it's just the power generation

(28:37):
is different.
Like you can generate so muchmore power living at sea level
than maybe I can at 7,000 or8,000 feet, specifically just
because of the air, you know,it's just a completely different
kind of calculus there.
So yeah, it's an interestingtrade-off, but yeah.
Let's uh I want to talk to youabout Mount Marathon and going
up to uh what was it this year,the 97th running or something
like that?

(28:58):
97th, yeah.
How was it, man?
What how was your experience outthere?

SPEAKER_00 (29:01):
Oh my gosh, it was amazing.
My wife and I were up there for10 days, um, and uh from start
to finish, it was just umamazing.
Like what top three, like thatarea, like the Alaska Mountain
Range, top three like mountainranges that I've seen for sure.
Um, they had like a a lot ofsnow this year compared to

(29:22):
normal.
So we tried to get up to some ofthe higher like hikes and runs
that we wanted to do, and weweren't able to.
Like, I really wanted to do theCirque series race, but I I like
got three quarters of the wayup, and the ridge like you
needed like like mountaineeringgear.
It was insane.
Yeah, yeah.

(29:43):
Um, but uh yeah, so the wholeexperience was amazing.
The race, though, like oh mygosh, it's so unique compared to
anything that I've done, eventhough like any of the sky
racing that I've done, it wasjust like those those people
that do.
that race it is so so specificlike um well 3000 foot and one

(30:08):
mile up 3000 foot down um I feltlike I I felt like I performed
well but there's just like thevery specific details that I
that I didn't do well that likeif you lived and trained there
um like that's where you get thelike a good advantage like I
don't know Max King has crushedit um coming not like not living

(30:32):
at in Alaska but he's reallyfigured it out I'd love to do it
a couple times because I feellike there's some things that
you could you could change toreally really do well there.

SPEAKER_02 (30:43):
It's a hard race to nail did you take the the roots
or the cliffs?

SPEAKER_00 (30:47):
Cliffs uh up and down uh did you do it no no I
just know a lot about it I'vebeen planning on doing it maybe
next year we'll see you totallyshould but yeah the cliffs I
felt like was the way to go um II practiced all the different
different uh routes and that onejust seemed the I mean it's the

(31:07):
most popular but also like Ifelt like it was the fastest and
and after I tested all the waysum the roots was the roots was
unique but I thought it was justa little slower.
Uh yeah because I was I wasracing well Patty O'Leary was in
it this year and he and I haveraced like like like five times

(31:29):
and um it's always fun becausewe trade off with every race
that we do we're like he'sbeaten me more than I have
beaten him but we always areback and forth.
So he took the roots I took thecliffs and I was just ahead of
him right afterwards.
So I was like I think I made theright choice there.

SPEAKER_02 (31:50):
Shout out to Patty he's someone I gotta get on the
podcast.
I uh yeah I gotta I gotta talkto Patty O'Leary one of these
days totally yeah it's aninteresting cat um so experience
wise so you definitely would goback I'd love to hear it um and
I it's it's your I feel likeit's funny for a 5k it is a very
difficult race to nail anddefinitely impossible to nail
your first go like it's eitheryou have to have stupid insane

(32:12):
fitness to just over kind ofovershadow any any like small
parts that you might overlook orit's like you have to dedicate
so much to it which has got tobe difficult.

SPEAKER_00 (32:22):
Totally yeah especially like I mean the
uphill I feel like is very likefitness oriented like you could
you could not fake but you couldget away if you have a lot of
fitness but the downhill I feellike you could really lose or
gain a ton of time on people.
Um I I love downhill like I feellike I'm probably better at

(32:44):
downhill than uphill and likethey had a big snowfield this
year which was really fun uhbecause Patty beat me to the top
and he was he was like a littletimid on the snowfield and like
I flew down the snowfield and Ipassed him right at the end of
the snowfield and um and likethere's such it's such a diverse

(33:05):
downhill because this year therewas this snowfield then there
was the really fun scree it's Idon't it's like I don't know 50
to five degree slopes and soit's the scree field that you'd
really have to just commit toand then there's like the these
couple waterfalls like five tosix foot drops there's like two

(33:27):
of those and then you go downthe cliff section um and like if
if you that's where I think Ican make up the most time is is
on that lower section of thedownhill um and uh yeah yeah if
you I could see if you're ifyou're not ready for that you
could really make up or ordecline a little bit on that.

SPEAKER_02 (33:50):
Interesting.
I don't know how Norris does itman he's that's I know he's
superhuman it's crazy it it'sfunny and it's like only
specific courses that like it'slike that and then really
technical stuff he's just sodirty at he's so good.

SPEAKER_00 (34:04):
It sure is yeah and then like uh my friend Taylor
who lives up he's he's fromAlaska he has the best downhill
um like I think well it's thebest downhill ever from top to
top to finish he he's like under10 minutes that's and he's just
like crazy it's insane he justlike fully commits he said when

(34:24):
he broke when he broke therecord that year he like did
like two separate summersomersaults I'm like you have to
be so committed to to do thatlike I did not commit myself
that much no fear and hehopefully he's got good health
insurance dude holy shit likeinsane yeah that was so crazy

(34:45):
yeah I I I hope to get in I'mgonna try to get in next year
we'll see I don't know we'vebeen d throwing around the idea
of the Alaska trip for next yearwe're supposed to do it this
year and I got injured and waslike all right well I don't want
to sit in a car for because wewere gonna drive up we were
going to take the dogs and likemake a long trip out of it but
it's it's a long that's a longundertaking it's like you got to
driving it's a lot of drivingyou got to be fully committed so

(35:06):
yeah yeah we'll see I will sayit's totally worth it though if
you get in definitely make thetrip.

SPEAKER_02 (35:11):
Yeah yeah it's definitely on the list.
All right let's let's shiftgears a little bit I want to
talk about your time in thesport and some of the cool
things that like you've donelike you were a professional
athlete for Hoka for for a nicechunk of time and then now
you're in this free agencyperiod I gotta ask you what do
you like better?
What do you prefer?
Like do you like the pressurebeing off you now or do you
prefer to be traveling aroundthe world doing the the pro Hoka

(35:35):
thing?

SPEAKER_00 (35:35):
That's such a good question.
So yeah I was with them for 2021and 2022 um man I absolutely
loved my time with Hoka.
I I'm like so thankful for it.
I love the brand I still stilllove the shoes I still still run
in Hokas but um I I I don'tthink I did well with the

(35:57):
pressure.
I think that that was more of aeven since college I think that
I've underperformed when thepressure was high.
So like I loved what I got todo.
I helped with uh Project CarbonX uh two um I got to you know
eat have dinner with with thethe two founders out in France

(36:18):
at CCC and like man thoseexperiences I'm I wouldn't I
wouldn't take away for anythingbut I do think that I didn't I
didn't perform as well as Icould have with the pressure so
I think that I've done so muchbetter since and before I just
think that those two years Iprobably underperformed because
of personal personal pressuresthat I put on myself um and like

(36:42):
I didn't expect to ever win aUTMB series race and I just had
went down there I had zeropressure I'm like this is the
lead up to my next race and I'mjust like whatever happens
happens.
So um I think that I'vecertainly done a little better
without the pressure um but veryfortunate for those two years I

(37:02):
I wouldn't trade that at all.

SPEAKER_02 (37:04):
That's interesting man I it's funny like how I it's
it's it's the games we play withourselves to put the pressure on
ourselves for to want to performand do our best on race day but
it's just interesting the waythe mind works with that stuff.
Yeah no and I I I don't knowit's it's I appreciate you being
candid and talking about it.
I was just uh I was very curiousabout how you uh how you kind of

(37:25):
reconciled it so how do you whatare you taking it from now?
Like what are you doing next?
Um is it grindstone ontoHavelina or like what's the
plan?

SPEAKER_00 (37:35):
Definitely yeah so yeah I'm I'm doing Havelina
hundred at the end of Octoberand um uh I I I know that I'm
not gonna be like at the frontof this race I'm just like I
want this as a nice challengebecause like I feel like my
specialty is 25k and 50k and Ijust like I really want to

(37:56):
finish 100 miles and I feel likeHavelena is a fun atmosphere to
get it done.
It's my wife can have a prettychill like crewing I'm gonna
have a pacer so like it's moreof a like get the job done like
get get the event done um buthave fun doing it not not no
pressure whatsoever but um afterthat I I just don't I just want

(38:21):
to stick to that 2550k distancebecause it's just like those are
the races that I feel like I Ido best at and I have the most
fun with especially trainingwise with having a full-time job
and being on local boards andthe races and I just I feel like
that's where I'm happiest.
How do you let's talk about thata little bit like you have a

(38:42):
full-time job you have ademanding job I I under like
finance is not like I get itit's a lot of work dude how do
you balance being being ahusband being a being you know
working full time being a racedirector so like a lot of
projects being on boards andthen training at a high level
like how do you how do you do itall that's thank thank you yeah

(39:05):
I um uh like I said earlier likeI don't do well when I'm bored
so I I need to like always bedoing something I feel like um
so uh I just love it one I don'tgive myself much praise but I
feel like I I feel like timemanagement is something that I'm

(39:25):
pretty good at and I feel likeis super important.
Um so yeah I wake up in themorning I I get my coaching in I
go on my run do work and thenthe evening is spending time
with my wife and doing other umextracurriculars that I that I
am involved with whether it'sboards or getting race stuff

(39:48):
done um so I just split up my myday like that I I I feel like I
have a pretty systematic daywhere it's pretty much that
every day where um uh where I dothe same stuff but I don't know
I love it I we all have 24 hoursI love to to do I I feel like I
couldn't do the same thing everyday we were talking about a

(40:09):
little bit I love havingdifferent things throughout the
day to keep me keep me busy andmy mind active in different
ways.

SPEAKER_02 (40:17):
How how does training work for you?
Do you work with a coach or areyou self-coached?

SPEAKER_00 (40:21):
Yeah good yeah good question I so I the last year
and a half two years um this isthe first time in my um 16 17
years of running where I'm I'mcoaching myself I was with David
Roche for about five years um Iloved my time with him he's uh

(40:42):
he's such a good coach andincredible person and um I was
just like you know I I just loveto try after 15 or however many
years it was I'm like you know Ihave all this thought pro
thoughts of knowledge I'm likeyou know what why don't I try it
and see what I could do bymyself and um it's nice because

(41:03):
with a lot of stuff going on Icould like tweak it to to fit
what I have in my in my personallife.
So um yeah not working with acoach right now it's my first
time ever so it's it's been fun.

SPEAKER_02 (41:16):
Dude it it's interesting right I've I've go
back and forth like I wasself-coached all last year and
then finally when the last liketwo months decided to go get a
coach again I like waffle backand forth with it.
I think it's it's it it alldepends like I think for me it's
the workouts like for those likereally because Cirque series
races are like basically a trackmeet in the mountains right so
it's like I have to continuouslyfigure out the workouts and it's

(41:39):
like all right well I needsomeone to help me with like VO2
blocks and then tempo blocks andjust stuff like that that I'm
just kind of a dumb dumb at.
So it definitely uh having acoach definitely helps for stuff
like that.

SPEAKER_00 (41:51):
No way.
No it's it's you're right thoughit's so nice having somebody to
to put put it on not cruisecontrol but do the do the work
for you in that sense and um Ifeel like you definitely have to
yourself included like you'reyou're a disciplined guy so it's
you definitely have to have likea disciplined mentality to get
the work in and um yeah and uhdiscipline and attention to

(42:15):
detail.
So um it's been a fun funexperiment.
I don't know if I'll I'll I willor I won't go back with a coach.
I think that it's great to havesomebody to to bounce ideas off
of but for now it's it's fun totry try new stuff.

SPEAKER_02 (42:30):
Yeah I agree with no I think every person in my
opinion should at some point intime try and do it themselves.
And the reason is because it isI I think the the best part
about it is at least for me isif you're not like feeling like
you can move your week aroundand I think like move stuff
around as long as you geteverything you need to get done
done in the week you can kind ofplay around with it to see what

(42:50):
fits and works for you.
Whereas like with the coachersit's obviously much more
structure and stuff like that.
And it's I don't know like ifthere's a day I don't feel like
doing something I'll move itaround but then I'll feel bad
for moving it around and I'mlike oh I gotta have a
conversation about this and yeahit's it's it's kind of fun.

SPEAKER_00 (43:05):
I don't know.
Totally yep agreed um all rightlet's pivot a little bit I'm
trying to remember what I wasgonna ask you I lost my train of
thought I was gonna ask you uhoh dude I was gonna get into
your whys this is something II've been like digging into with
folks lately is like your whyfor running like obviously
you've had a few different livesin the sport now you're in this

(43:25):
this period where yourpressure's off you're doing your
thing you're enjoying it andhaving success at it like how
has your why kind of evolved andchanged as time has gone by yeah
you know I I struggled with thatfor a little while um especially
like the tail end of Hoka andthe beginning of not hoka it was

(43:47):
um I don't feel like I had a avery specific why which which
was hard um but I feel like nowI've thought about it especially
like going down the grindstone Iwas just like I made in a point
to think about that um and it'sjust so special because one I I

(44:11):
want to give back to the sportwith the race directing and and
um I work at a high school crosscountry camp in the summer um so
I just think right now it's justlike no pressure have fun you
love it so like my why is justjust do it because you love it
and it it has so many goodtranslations into real life um

(44:33):
like everything like especiallylike the problem solving that
comes with trail running the thediscipline the the um being
patient um like everything thatthat you go through in training
I feel like helps you become abetter person in real life at
least that's the way I look atit so like my why is just like

(44:57):
make it's gonna make you abetter person it's gonna make
you a better husband a betteremployee um and I just think
that it it has such bigtranslations from from from
running to to real life.
So um I do it because I love itreally.

SPEAKER_02 (45:16):
That's the best why dude you do it because you want
to self-improve and you love itmore than anything and I think
that's I think that's the purestway to go go about things.
You know if there's anythingother than that it's like it's
interesting I talked to so manyathletes man and so many people
like lose their you see start topeople like lose their love of
it the more it becomesprofessionalized and the more it

(45:37):
becomes you know this thing thatI do for money where it's like
oh I have to feed my family ormyself and this is like do or
die and it's like oh that's alot of pressure man.

SPEAKER_00 (45:46):
I don't yeah that that that's exactly right like
with um and that was not likeHoka's fault at all but like I
felt like all right I have thisthis opportunity this contract
like you see the you see thebonuses that you can get you're
like this is like you could youcould change like it's not like

(46:09):
NFL money but you could reallychange your life and put
yourself in a differentcircumstance um so I think that
I I really think that my why waswas not in the right place when
I was when I was in thatposition.
But now it's just like nopressure have fun do it because
you love it.
And um yeah now I feel like I'min such a I'm in a blessed

(46:32):
position where I could self-fundmy travel so like now I could I
could go to a a race in Canadaor Alaska or Europe and um I'm
just feel like very fortunatethat I don't have to have the
pressure and still be able to dothat stuff.

SPEAKER_02 (46:50):
I love it.

SPEAKER_00 (46:51):
What um what's a so you've done so many races man
you've raced all over the worldlike you've you just came back
you just did Mount Marathon uhyou've done uh what's that
badass race in Cranmore Meet theMinotaur like you've done some
great races what's a what's abucket list what's one you
haven't hit yet that's like highon the list oh that I haven't

(47:11):
done yet um oh my gosh ifanybody hasn't done Meet the
Minotaur that one is wild Idefinitely recommend that one
but um since I since like 2018I've wanted to do Trans Vulcania
um like in in such a like likeso every year I'm like oh my

(47:35):
gosh I have to do it it's such acool race it seems like um like
when Hayden Hawks did it Iforget what year he did it.

SPEAKER_02 (47:44):
It's a while ago it's probably 2017 2016 17
something like that.

SPEAKER_00 (47:48):
Something like that.
We had a conversation after hedid it and he he said how how
amazing it was and um so that isone that I really really want to
do um just as a bucket list andum is this is cliche and I know
I said I love 25 Ks and 50 K'sbut like western states would be
such a like such a bucket listone just to do again not to like

(48:12):
not to like win or whatever justbecause like it's so prestigious
and just I feel like it would beso amazing but yeah those two
those two are are on my list.

SPEAKER_02 (48:24):
Dude Transvolcania looks dope that and Transgrand
Canaria looks dope too like anyof those Canary Islands or any
of those like volcanic islandslook so cool to go run around in
um yeah yeah definitely high onthe list.

SPEAKER_00 (48:36):
And really like any of the Skyrunner series like
they do they are I feel likethat's one of the best series
out there.
It's amazing like those coursesum I I had the opportunity this
year to to go on the series I Ididn't end up taking the
opportunity but um like all ofthose races they do such a good

(48:58):
job they pick like theseinsanely like you can go with
the smallest villages in in theAndes mountains to um any of the
big the big stuff in in Europebut um and and Mexico like they
have such cool races just allover the world now.
So any of those skyrunningseries races are just insane.

SPEAKER_02 (49:21):
Yeah that's I mean I was gonna ask you like as far as
like what's next kind of stuffoutside of uh um maybe OSCC CCC
or you know javelina stuff Ithat's something that would be
cool to see you doing is likemore on the Skyrunner series and
kind of playing around because Idon't know I just feel like you
know the technicality of theNortheast is a good place to get
ready for races like that.
Like you actually can train andI think that you know there

(49:43):
could be some gacross overthere.

SPEAKER_00 (49:45):
Agreed yeah I I always try to do one uh I tried
to do one skyrunning series racea year um on the series and this
year I was going to do one in umoh my in in in europe um but

(50:06):
instead after I got into um uhMount Marathon I decided to go
there instead yep um so nextyear I'd love to go back and do
uh a Skyrunner series plus OCCum like Skyrace they I'm gonna
say this wrong skyrace deMathisons yeah Mathieu de Messi
I think it's de Messi I can't Igotta work on my French um it's

(50:29):
dude that is such a sick race umyeah Michelinos run it he's told
me all about it like I've hadquite a few friends run that
race and I'm just like oh dude Igotta get in there one of these
years it looks so much fun youtotally should I did it in 2019
and it was a snow year and itwas just like it was insane like
I forget the I forget the thenumbers but like 6,000 foot up

(50:51):
6,000 foot down and it's justlike village to like subalpine
to like straight alpine and it'sjust like and that was where I
realized that uh European racesthey they don't really take the
switchbacks they just go rightdown them.
So that that's where I got to todo my testing on that.

SPEAKER_02 (51:14):
Yeah they it's more of a guidance it's more of
guidelines than it is actualrules for them the the whole the
downhills yeah it's kind ofhilarious.

SPEAKER_00 (51:21):
Yeah I love it because one came flying by me
like I was going straight andthey like they went
perpendicular to me and I'm likewhat the heck is happening and
then I realized that you couldjust go straight down that you
didn't have to take the trail.

SPEAKER_02 (51:37):
It's I find that thought process so funny because
like you're not the onlyAmerican that said that to me.
It's like when they're IBenjamin Townsend I had on the
podcast a bazillion times and hesaid the same thing to me after
the race.
He's like I it didn't reallyclick with me when they started
cutting switchbacks that youcould just do that.
He's like oh like okay it's kindof funny I love it.

SPEAKER_00 (51:57):
So yeah that's kind of what I'm thinking I'd love to
do I'd love to do a Skyrunnerseries and then an OCC next
year.

SPEAKER_02 (52:04):
Sweet sweet I love to hear it man um let's pivot
really quick on some endingquestions.
I gotta ask you because I'vebeen really big on asking folks
this like take on the sport likeare you excited to see it
professionalized so much?
Are you excited like do youthink we're gonna be an Olympic
sport?
Like what do you want to see outof the sport in the next five
years?

SPEAKER_00 (52:22):
That's a good question.
So I I personally like theprofessionalization of it um
it's so hard because ask me fiveyears ago and I think that
Olympics would have been myanswer but uh I just after
talking to people about whatthat Olympic look would be I

(52:42):
don't know if I if I would loveit as much.
Because I don't think that it'slike I don't think it would be
like the world champs that justhappened.
I think that it would be itwould have to be visually
appearing appealing like it didlike how it went for mountain
biking um how it it kind ofchanged uh and and with rock

(53:02):
climbing like it's so specificto the Olympics uh visually um
that I kind of like the setup wehave now with UTMB as as that
championship and um the worldchamps every two years like I
think that's I think that'ssuper cool the way it's set up
now.

(53:23):
But I personally like theprofession professionalization
of it.
People are making a living offof it now.
The brands are are innovating inthe in the space they're putting
money into it as you can see nowwith with Nike um they just re
last year got a new CEO wherenow they're they're kind of

(53:45):
going more into into the spaceum how they just did the
coverage for free trail forworlds I think that that is
going to be a cool thing tofollow going forward um with how
big of an RD program they haveum but I think competition is is
good for the brands to have soI'm excited to see what happens

(54:07):
in the next five years and I'mpersonally excited about where
it's going um because it is Imean there it's still broken up
you have golden trail you haveskyrunner you have utmb and
world champs so there'sdefinitely a lot of splinters
but I think that our sport isthat I think that there's so
many different differentdisciplines that you it's nice

(54:30):
to have the ability to pick whatyou're good at.

SPEAKER_02 (54:33):
Yeah I I love it too it's interesting like for in
like I'm obviously a giant fanof the Cirque series like I feel
like that is the premiere if youwant to race mountain classics
that's the way to race mountainclassics in North America I
think we just need we need likea world final for mountain
classics.
Like I think like ETC could beit like that would be sweet at
on the like for the UTMB.
And then for your 20k's or Imean 50k is already OCC we need

(54:56):
something for the 20k maybethat's the golden trail world
series final or something likethat.
Like there's there's plenty ofopportunities for like I don't
know finals and stuff like that.
And then on every other year weget the world championships with
makes it which makes it uh youknow pretty cool.
What did you think of worldsthis year?
Any any takeaways anything thatlike stuck out to you other than
just like Stoke Yeah that's agood question.

SPEAKER_00 (55:19):
I thought the the area is super cool I raced in
the Pyrenees before at a SkyRace uh event and it's it's such
a cool mountain range.
I wasn't in that specific areabut it looked so pretty out
there.
I love that they had like I feellike that's what a world um I
feel like that's what TrailWorlds like that's the venue we

(55:41):
should have because people aresaying it was super steep
technical off trail like I lovethat stuff.
I think that that kind of thatkind of is a good grounds for
our sport to to have a worldfinal on um I feel like if you
have it on something supersmooth super flowy um I think

(56:04):
that that wouldn't be a goodequalizer for for the sport.
So I love the venue that theyhad it at um and the results
were really interesting.
Like each distance I feel likeum different countries kind of
to showed their strengths um soit was really cool to see um I

(56:24):
think this year was wasinteresting with UTMB being so
close so I think in two yearswith it being a couple weeks
after it will be really theresults might be shaken up a bit
from this year um because peoplethat do race at UTMB finals
might uh do a little bit be bemore uh fresh for it but this

(56:47):
year was so fun to follow I wasso pumped to to um see Jim and
Katie both win the long trailand um all all the US teams I
thought were they did they hadsuch a good representation this
year.
All the athletes were soimpressive.

SPEAKER_02 (57:02):
Yeah it's crazy how strong the Americans have gotten
like we're we're for sure aforce like as far as like
worldwide goes now like themountain teams did amazing the
vertical teams did amazing theum you know the and the
interesting thing on your toyour point on with UTMB and long
trail too is like I wonder howdifferent it would look in
because I think next time aroundin 2027 it'll be in November.

(57:24):
So that's good.
I mean like maybe we get Tom andJohn Albin and like Ben Dieman
and and folks like that and RuthCroft for New Zealand.
Like I I would have liked forthe long trail to see more of
that representation but it'shard I mean it's like damn near
impossible to turn around a racelike that.
Like you could see the guys likeEli and David Sinclair for sure
were wearing CCC in their legslike you know so which is a

(57:48):
bummer but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (57:49):
Yeah how did you how did you enjoy covering it I know
you did a lot of coverage withathletes and stuff.
What was your perspective?

SPEAKER_02 (57:55):
It's fun it's it honestly like not it's just a
blast like um pr the predictionswere hard it was interesting to
make the predictions because youknow as as an athlete in the
sport and as someone that knowsall these athletes now like they
be a lot of them become yourfriends.
So it's like it's reallydifficult for me to like remove

(58:16):
oh well I love Cam Smith.
He's one of my favorite peoplein the world how do I not pick
Cam Smith or Joe Gray or youknow it's it's it's or Michelino
like it's very difficult for meto uh remove that bias if you
will because I had like uhRobert Prosser um he does like
free trail commentating andstuff like that and I had him on
he's a brain and Rob was kindenough to come on and help do

(58:37):
the predictions and we werelooking through just the start
list and stuff like that andlike he's like oh dude you got
to remove your you got a littlebit of a bias there.
I was like I know it's it's uhso that was difficult for me but
the the positive was was justjust seeing everyone uh you know
dude so many of these athletesincluding yourself like these
athletes from a very young agewant to go represent team USA at

(58:59):
the highest level and then theyget to go do it right like
that's that's the coolest thinglike hearing you know their
answers when it's like well whatis it like you know getting to
represent the stars and thestripes and hearing how stoked
they are to go do that and yeahI don't know like that that that
was very special.
And it's been cool too followingthese athletes from Sunpee um
like especially Anna GibsonLauren Gregory Allimack like the

(59:21):
entire mountain classic team umfrom Sunnepe all the way through
getting to call that race and bethe commentator on that live
stream and then you know aseveryone's kind of evolved
throughout their summers and youknow like you see Mason who's
had like like an Olympic levelseason which is crazy all these
athletes.
So yeah it's been cool and sothat's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 (59:40):
Yeah I I think it's so fun to follow especially like
there's so many variables in inthis sport like that you could
you could pick the the best youcould have the best lineup on
your free trail fantasy but likeso there's so many variables
that people have a good day or abad day.
And like the shorter courses,like the classic was so fun to

(01:00:03):
follow because like thatdistance, I feel like it's it's
very conducive for like a a andnot um like a no-name person to
have such a good day um thatyou're nobody was expecting it.
Um so like I just I just lovelove the variability and and
pop-ups that happen, uhespecially at a world champs.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:26):
One of the interesting things too I was
thinking about with worlds is alot of the athletes you see
doing like really, really well,like your needle angle hards of
the world and a few others, likesome of these athletes don't
have like giant sponsorships orlike aren't racing like the
highest end races.
They're just really, really goodand just either haven't been
discovered or have been and justdon't have those opportunities.

(01:00:47):
It's really interesting.
Like that was one of the the thepoints that I I had like written
down to like put across in anepisode at some point that it's
like you know, just because thatwe have a big name, for
instance, like on a team on thesport, like there's they s some
people still get beat, and likethere's a lot of other people
out there that are really good,you know.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:05):
Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
And uh as as the sport grows, Ithink it'll be really cool that
that new people will be uh beinto it and and give some
surprising performances.
Yeah, no, for sure, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:20):
Well, Ben, I think this is a good put uh good good
place to bookend it, dude.
It was so nice getting to meetyou and have you on the podcast,
man.
I hope we uh I hope our pathscross uh in the northeast this
uh this upcoming summer.
Hopefully we'll get to uh eitherthrow down at a race together or
definitely meet.
So hopefully we get out for arun.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:38):
Yeah, come out to Miller or or come out if if you
do the Cirque series races, letme know.
That would be cool to meet up.
Yeah, let's do it, dude.
Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:45):
Dude, again, thanks so much for your time.
I really appreciate it.
I'm such a fan, and uh thanksagain for coming on.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:51):
Thank you very much, very much.
I appreciate it.
Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:55):
Big shout out to Ben for coming on the podcast.
Want to thank him so much.
Uh, what'd you guys think?
Hope you enjoyed the episode.
Um, guys, the best way you cansupport Ben is to give him a
follow on Instagram uh or raceone of his races.
I'm gonna link his uh some ofhis races in the show notes.
So if you guys happen to findyourself in Pennsylvania or are
interested in a trail race inthe Northeast, you could
definitely go check out uh hisraces um as well as you can

(01:02:17):
follow him on Instagram, andthat's just gonna be at Ben
underscore Robinson88.
That's Robin R-O-B-I-N-S-O-N-88.
Um give him a follow.
Let you let him know what youguys thought about the episode.
I'm sure he'd really appreciateany feedback on the episode and
words of encouragement.
Uh especially as he takes onHavelina in a few weeks, uh,
which is a kind of a it's areally long race.

(01:02:38):
It's definitely not short trail.
Um yeah, guys, I reallyappreciate you for tuning in.
If you enjoyed this episode orif you've been joining the pod
enjoying the podcast in general,uh give us a five-star rating
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(01:02:59):
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(01:03:19):
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Uh, guys, all kinds of goodstuff coming down the pipeline.
I've got an episode with DavidHedges dropping, as well as one
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So all good stuff coming outpretty soon.
Um, so stay tuned in and uhthanks for following along.