#135 - Nick Cornell, Founder of Trailhead Athlete Management

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The sport we love is growing up, and that’s a good thing—if we build it right. I’m joined by athlete and agent Nick Cornell of Trailhead Athlete Management to dig into what “professional” actually looks like in trail running: livable contracts, smarter bonuses, real anti-doping, and a path that lets athletes focus on performance without losing the grassroots soul that makes this community special.

Nick shares how he went from thru-hiking the Triple Crown to winning Montana 50Ks and managing athletes who train 20 hours a week while juggling logistics, content, deliverables, and travel. We unpack what brands want beyond results—genuine people with presence—and why short trail deserves more investment alongside ultras. We also talk hard numbers: why most pros still sit in the low five figures, how a league minimum could change that, and where healthcare and PT stipends fit in. If you’ve wondered whether rumors of huge salaries are real, or how to negotiate your first deal, Nick gives grounded, practical insight.

We go deep on legitimacy and the World Mountain and Trail Championships—federations offering team camps and big bonuses, the realities of kit rules, and why national team results should be bonused just like track. From out-of-competition testing to non-endemic sponsors—cars, banks, tourism boards, food brands—we explore the funding models that could unlock full-time careers without sidelining local races. The takeaway is hopeful: keep the watermelon at aid stations and the big stages on the calendar. With smarter structure, everyone wins.

If this conversation helped you think differently about the future of trail running, tap follow, share it with a friend, and leave a quick rating or review. Your support helps us bring more candid, useful conversations to the community.

Follow Nick on IG - @nickcornell.run

Follow Trailhead Athlete Mgmt on IG - @trailheadathletemgmt

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast.
I'm your host, James L'Oriello.
And today I'm so excited towelcome Nick Cornell to the
show.
Nick, both an athlete in his ownright as well as an agent in our
sport.
Nick is the founder of TrailheadAthlete Management based in
Missoula, Montana.
And he was kind enough to comeon for just a kind of slew of
questions that we uh and thingsthat we debated about the sport.

(00:21):
Really appreciate Nick for histime.
We got into just what it's liketo be an agent in our sport,
kind of why the time is now tokind of strike and you know if
you're interested in helpingathletes and you know what the
what the job kind of encompassesoutside of just finding
partnerships.
Uh we talked about relationshipbuilding, developing
relationships both with athletesand brands.
Um we talked about advice.
We got into, especially nowbecause contract season's pretty

(00:44):
much wrapped up.
Um we talked about advice forathletes that might be looking
for contracts in the nextcalendar year or maybe even in
this one, and kind of whatbrands are looking at or looking
for, depending on what type ofbrand you are.
Um we talked about athlete payin its own right.
We talked about health care forathletes, um, what needs to
change, got into drug testing inand out of season, um, and what

(01:06):
needs to change for the sport aswell.
And the Olympics.
Lots of good topics.
Uh, I think this was a reallyfun one.
Uh Nick is a brilliant mind inthe sport and a super nice guy,
so really appreciated him forhis time and uh being open to uh
answering my slew of questionsthat I had.
So without further ado, uh Ihope you guys enjoy this one,
Nick Cornell.
One more thing before I let youguys get going.

(01:28):
Um I do want to apologize.
I don't know what happened on myend, I don't know if the
internet was bad or whatnot, buta lot of my episode or my my
side, um, not Nick's, came outkind of clipped.
So every time I talk into themic, for some reason it sounds
kind of clippy and just uh uh Idon't just not really good audio
quality.
So I'm really want to apologizefor that.
Hopefully get that cleaned up inpost-production and it just

(01:49):
didn't come out as uh clear as Iwanted it to.
So hopefully get that fixedmoving forward.
But I really appreciate you guysand uh thanks so much.

(03:07):
Awesome.
Nick Cornell, welcome to theSteep Stuff Podcast.
How's it going, man?

SPEAKER_01 (03:12):
It's going pretty well.
Enjoying a lovely fall day,Missoula.

SPEAKER_02 (03:16):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, dude, I I reallyappreciate it.
Thank you for taking the timeout of your day to have a
conversation with me.
Um as we get started, you know,maybe just give us like the the
little elevator pitch on yourbackground, who you are, and uh
we could talk a little bit abouttrailhead athlete management.

SPEAKER_01 (03:32):
Yeah, for sure.
Um yeah, I live in Missoula,Montana.
Um, I've been a trail runner, Iguess, for almost 10 years now.
Um before that I was a throughhiker.
I came from that background, didthe Triple Crown in the United
States over a period of years.
Um kind of fell in love withtraveling on trails and ended up

(03:54):
running.
Um got into 100Ks and all that.
Um yeah, and once I was inMontana, I met my girlfriend, uh
Jen Lichter, um who's now aprofessional trail runner, and
so that's how I got to learnthat sort of business side of
things.
Um yeah, I found it prettyinteresting.

(04:14):
It's it's a lot, you know, theseelite athletes, they manage a
lot of stuff.
Um and most of them, you know,don't like answering emails,
don't like being on computers.
Um, so I found that kind ofuniversally throughout most of
the elite shroud runnersnowadays.
Um yeah, so we live in Missoula.

(04:35):
We've been here for three years,I think.
Um yeah, we love it here.
It's good training partners,good trails.
Um, yeah, it's it's a goodplace.

SPEAKER_02 (04:44):
It is a great place.
My uh my buddy Jackson Colelives up there.
Um I think I think you took aphoto of him recently that he
like posted or something likethat.
Um yeah, he's he loves it.
It seems like everybody I talkedto that spends time up there or
has ever lived up there likeabsolutely like loves the area.

SPEAKER_01 (05:00):
Yeah, we're right now it's fall and everyone's
still trying to get out whilethey can before the snow comes
and you know now it's the sunsetting at five o'clock and it's
a bit rough.

SPEAKER_02 (05:11):
Dude, did you I I just I don't know, I was like
scrolling on Instagram recentlyand I saw that like someone
stole a Sinclair dinosaur andlike put it on uh what's the
local peak that you guys havewith the giant M on it?
I think that I think that was inBozeman.
Oh, never mind.
Okay, damn.
It's close.

SPEAKER_01 (05:28):
I think I didn't look too much into it, but yeah,
I think that was Bozeman.
Oh, all right.
Well, nobody getting ideas.
Honestly, I could be wrong.

SPEAKER_02 (05:37):
All right, let's let's I want to talk a little
bit about your background.
I I read up on you a decentamount and saw that you had
played uh D3 soccer in college,and like you're like a solid
athlete in your own right, man.
Um let's talk about up your alittle bit about your
background.
Like, let's talk soccer andfirst of all, like what position
did you play?

SPEAKER_01 (05:53):
Yeah, I played soccer all my life.
Um my mom played at a highlevel.
Uh um, you know, she played onthe women's national team back
in 1985.
My brother also played D3soccer.
I played D3 soccer.
Um, yeah, I was like aleft-wing.
Um so I was running a lotnaturally.

(06:15):
I was pretty fit without tryingto get fit, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 (06:18):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (06:19):
Um, yeah, so I played at a small school in
Virginia for uh for four years.
It was really cool.
It was like a new brand newprogram.
Um the school just went co-edlike three years before I got
there.
Um, so yeah, it's a brand newprogram.
We went to the NCAA tournamentone year, made it to Sweet 16.

(06:39):
Like, it was a really coolexperience.
Um V3 is pretty fun.
You know, the people are thereworking hard and they're there
for like it feels like the rightreasons.
Um yeah, so that's that's sortof my yeah, endurance
background.
There's a lot of that soccerplayer, the trail runner
pipeline is is pretty strong.

SPEAKER_02 (06:59):
Yeah.
I mean, dude, that was that wasmy sport.
Like I was uh left back andyeah, I I grew up in South
Florida, so it was it's like avery deep uh I don't know, like
a lot of uh I guess moremulticultural or multinational,
I guess you could say, becauseit's a lot of uh more of a South
American emphasis, which likemakes it super fun.
Um yeah, it's it's a greatsport.
Are you are you do you stilllike follow the sport at all?

(07:20):
Are you like uh you follow likeuh all the different leagues and
stuff?

SPEAKER_01 (07:25):
No.
No.
Um I definitely there was a timeperiod where I used to, but um
no, not anymore.
I mean, yeah, not at all.

SPEAKER_02 (07:34):
I don't I I don't either.

SPEAKER_01 (07:35):
I was just just curious.
It's hard to keep track of youknow all the trail running stuff
and then like wake up at youknow five, six a.m.
in the morning to watch EPLgames.

SPEAKER_02 (07:44):
It's true.
That's true.
Yeah, it's kind of wild.
The the European scene is isnot, I guess I don't know, you
compare it to like trail runningand it's like, oh man, like it's
it's too much now.
Yeah.
Uh speaking of which, I'm gonnapivot to trail running a little
bit and talk about your kind ofjust your background.
Like, did you discover the sportlike through Jennifer?
Did you discover the sport justlike randomly signing up for a
race?

(08:05):
Like, how did you get into trailrunning?

SPEAKER_01 (08:08):
Uh I don't I don't know.
I'm not sure how I discovered itper se.
I grew up like right on theAppalachian Trail in Front
Royal, Virginia.
Um, so there were, I guess therewere trailrunners, like the old
Dominion 100 is right there, theMass Nunn 100 was right there.
I so I probably like you knowcaught little bits and pieces of

(08:28):
it growing up.
Um yeah, then at some point inone of my through hikes, I
started sort of following thesport.
I figured I started backpacking30, 40 miles in a day and
thought, oh I could run this ifI didn't have a backpack on me.
Um and yes, during the summerswhen I was through hiking, I

(08:48):
would start following like youknow, follow Western states
while I was through hiking andgetting into that.
Um yeah, then I I made myparents support me for a 50k
trail run on the AT after Ifinished the PCT.
Um just like I went out and didit, really knew nothing about

(09:10):
it.
My T-band blew up, and I think Ionly did a 50K as opposed to a
50 mile.
Um and then after the CDT, I didmy first like 50k proper trail
race, which was in uh NorthCarolina, I think it was in the
naturalist.
Um, and that was my firstintroduction to like the scene
and like you know the vibe andactually doing a race.

(09:33):
Um yeah, and I only I would onlydo like one or two races a
summer for many years.
I would only train six weeksbeforehand for many years.
Like the winter was my time off.
Um yeah, then once I starteddating and hanging out with Jen,
I started running likeyear-round.

(09:53):
Um and yeah, I like to do racesaround Montana nowadays.
Um this year I did the beaverhead 55k and the whitefish 50k.
Um yeah, I was able to win bothof those.
Uh so it's cool to be you knowdoing well in this region.
It's like it's a sense of pride.

SPEAKER_00 (10:13):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (10:14):
It's cool to explore your own little area.

SPEAKER_02 (10:16):
What's the scene like over there?
I mean, just from I I know wekind of little talked a little
bit about Missoula, but likejust the scene in general um in
Montana.
Like the it feels like I don'tknow, between Adam Peterman,
Jeff McGavro, Jennifer, likethere's so many amazing drill
runners coming out of Montana atthis point.
Like you talk about it, likewhat do you what do you think as

(10:38):
far as the growing scene?

SPEAKER_01 (10:39):
I think the the there's a lot of still like a
lot of grassroots events.
There's still a lot of likelocal crushers that stick to
their hometown races and justwill like show up and throw
down.
Um, you know, in Missoula,there's a lot of guys that they
go out on these long adventuresand you know they don't boast
about it.

(11:00):
Um yeah, it's fun.
I mean, it's cool just go on along run and you know, you run,
you see one or two trailrunnersout there.
Um you see on the weekends inMissoula, there you'll see I
don't know, 20 people out trailrunning on a you know long run
Sunday.
Um it's crazy.
I mean it's uh yeah, it's a goodscene.

(11:21):
Good vibes.

SPEAKER_02 (11:22):
Yeah, yeah.
Very cool, very cool.
All right, let's pivot.
I can't I don't want to bury thelead.
Let's let's talk agent stuff.
Um dude, you're you you're anagent, you you have this
company, Trailhead AthleteManagement.
What prompted you to want tostart a business like this?

SPEAKER_01 (11:38):
Um yeah, I just saw there's there's I saw an over
opportunity, I saw openings, um,I've thought about it for many
years.
Um I've talked to people, youknow, in the industry for a few
years.
Um you know, there's never aright time to start something,
so I just figured what the whatthe heck?
Let's throw up a website, let'sget into it, um let's see what

(12:03):
happens.
Um yeah, so like um Jen got herfirst pro contract in 2020
shoot, 2021, 2022.
Um so that was my first liketime, you know, seeing that sort
of thing, and it's like likewow, you know, back in the day
people were getting shoes likebased on upon a handshake and

(12:25):
now people are signing theselong, lengthy contracts and
NDAs, and you know, it's monthsof negotiations.
Um Yeah, so I just saw there's Imean there's only I don't know,
maybe two people that arededicated to being an agents for
trail runners.
You know, there's road and trailagents.

(12:47):
Um there's a lot of agenciesthat just do road and trail on
the side.
Um yeah, and right now, I mean,the we like to think that sport
has grown a lot, but it's gonnagrow more.
Um I really want to start it nowbecause I was like, oh shoot,
you know, at some point trailrunning will could end up in the
Olympics, and at that point youcan't start an agency.

(13:10):
You have to start it five to tenyears ahead of time.
Um, and so that's really likewhy that was like the the
precursor, that was that was it.
I was like, like now's a goodtime.

SPEAKER_02 (13:21):
I think it's cool, man.
So I just some backstory.
Like, I went to high school uhwith two guys that went on to
become like NFL agents, and likethey have all these law degrees,
it's super fancy, you gotta takeall these stupid tests to become
one.
And I love our little sportwhere like if you want to be an
entrepreneur and like you canmake these brand connections and
start a business, like we stillallow the ability to do that.

(13:43):
And it's like I think it'sperfect because the right person
at the right time, like you canget in now and develop these
relationships and build thebusiness like this.
And yeah, like you said, youknow, however long it takes for
us to get in the Olympics, likeit's uh you'll have quite a book
of business by the time thatcomes around, which I think is
really intelligent.

SPEAKER_01 (14:01):
Yeah, I do enjoy that part of the sport where you
can you can stick a claim andcreate something.
You know, back during likeCOVID, I was like, uh maybe I
should take a coaching courseand start doing that, and I
didn't do that.
And then like, you know,podcasting is blowing up, and
I'm like, that doesn't seemright for me.
And uh yeah, and this thisopportunity sort of like

(14:23):
presented itself.
And I mean, yeah, let's figuregive it a shot.
I mean, what's yeah, what's theharm?

SPEAKER_02 (14:29):
Yeah.
Can you talk a little bit aboutI think I think a misnomer is
people think it's just uh, youknow, working with an agent is
just you um getting deals forthem.
There's a lot more to it.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout like the services like you
guys provide, like logistics,the scheduling, things like
that?

SPEAKER_01 (14:47):
Yeah, I think especially for trail running,
um, yeah, you can't just be anagent.
These pe these athletes aren'tmaking enough money to hire an
agent and a manager.
Um, and so you need, I feel likeyou need to be that
all-encompassing resource.
Um so yeah, so yeah, gettingpeople brand deals, answering
the emails, uh, figure out youknow, race calendars, figure out

(15:11):
travel logistics, um, you know,with the growth of social media,
you gotta figure out when to beposting about what, um, keeping
on tabs with your uhdeliverables for every contract.
Um yeah, there's a lot.
And that like if you rail stuffdown, like that's its own sort
of part-time job and on top oftraining 20, 25 hours a week for

(15:35):
these people.
Um yeah, so I think atTrailhead, we're trying to be
that all-encompassing supportiverole to you know, take a load
off for these lead athletes.

SPEAKER_02 (15:47):
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, dude, just likethe scheduling from the social
media stuff, like that alone.
I mean, I can think of stufflike I have just for myself as
an athlete and for the podcast,and like there's stuff well, I
can't go in super deep, butlike, yeah, I gotta post shit
like twice a month and stufflike that.
And like you forget, and it'slike, oh man, you know, an agent
would be really helpful to likeset a little reminder, like, let

(16:09):
me know this needs to be done,or you have this deliverable and
stuff like that.
Like, it really like matters.
Um yeah, I don't know where I'mgoing with that, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (16:19):
Yeah, you see that nudge, or you need a calendar
with if you have four differentcontracts with you know X amount
of Instagram deliverables,that's that adds up.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (16:30):
I gotta ask you this.
What like I wanted to exploremore like your why.
Um obviously there's a need inthe space, but like what is the
deeper why?
Is it to help athletes?
Is it to uh you know create acareer path for yourself?
Is there like like what is thekind of the burning desire?

SPEAKER_01 (16:47):
Yeah, I the yeah, at the heart of it, I'm just I just
want to help athletes.
They're you know, they'reputting in the work, they're
working as much as any otherlead athlete in any endurance
sport, any maybe even any teamsport, uh, and they deserve to
be compensated fair fairly.

(17:08):
Um yeah, I I you know I don'twant the days where people are
scraping by and workingpart-time jobs while training 20
hours a week.
That's just that's crazy.
Um, yeah, so that the heart ofit is is the goal just to help
athletes.
I I don't feel a need to make alot of money off of it.

(17:29):
Like at the start, you can'thave that as a goal.
Maybe 10 to 20 years, I willmake enough money off of it, but
yeah, for the time being, justto help athletes and just and
just make the most of their youknow, their potentially short
careers.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (17:46):
Dude, on that topic, let's let's talk careers.
I I find it really interestingnow that we're we're in this
space where someone like KellyNewland will go on a podcast and
talk about, and we'll get intothis later because I do have
this question about this foryou, um, where people will talk
about athletes making over 500grand a year in the sport,
people are talking about alllongevity and this, that, and
the other.

(18:06):
Like, how do you view it for asan agent, like working with
athletes?
Like, is it for you like this uhalmost like a partnership for a
career?
Like, I I think that's the wayalmost athletes in the sport
now, from a professionalizationperspective, like almost need to
view it is as a career, um,especially as there's more money

(18:27):
starts to roll in.
Like, how do you view that?
Or is it just this like one totwo year thing?

SPEAKER_01 (18:32):
Yeah, I I like to look at it as a career.
It's uh I mean you arerealistically, uh ideally, I
guess you think in over 10years.
And that and that in my book isa career.
I mean nowadays these athletesare hiring you know, strength
coaches, nutritionists, um, theyhave brands on their side, maybe

(18:54):
they have an agent, and that youthat's reflective of a career.
You're building a team aroundyou.
Um that and you know, yourrunning is not only supporting
you, but it's supporting theseother people too.
Um, so it's becoming definitelya career path.
Um, you know, and the interestinteresting thing too is what
happens after that 10-yearcareer.

(19:16):
Um, you know, there are somebrands that are bringing on
athletes in different roles, andthat's exciting.
Um and uh yeah, definitely liketo see more of that in the
future.

SPEAKER_02 (19:26):
Do you think there's a space where like that's a
negotiable thing?
Like, I don't know, take forinstance, uh, we can use
Jennifer as an example.
Um, one of the greatest, uh atthis point, one of the greatest
trail runners I think to haveever done it on the short trail
side and into the ultra as well,like 50k mountain runners.
There'll be a you know a timewhen maybe she doesn't want to
do this anymore and wants tomove on in her career.

(19:49):
Do you think there'sopportunities there for athletes
like that to be able to goin-house and I don't know, help
develop shoes, help developproduct, all these different
things?
Like, what do you think that'llbe more available as time goes
on for athletes?

SPEAKER_01 (20:01):
Yeah, I think it will.
I think a lot of these athletesshould be brought on like in
team management roles becausethey know you know what goes
into a hard season.
Um, they know what it's like tobe an elite athlete.
Uh, I think unfortunately, a lotof these teams are like 20
people deep, and not all thosepeople will get jobs after
they're done.

(20:22):
Um I know a lot of athletes havemade made uh career in coaching
as well, or I think we'll see alot of people sort of do like
the YouTube channel thing afterthey're done, um, like Nick
Simmons and that sort of YouTubething.
Um yeah, I think we'll see moreof it as the sport

(20:43):
professionalizes and as athletesgain these experiences that are
useful uh for the brands downthe road.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (20:51):
What is it like for you?
I I mean I always found thisinteresting, just both on like
from an athlete perspective andfrom the podcast perspective,
like having to reach out tothese brands, like make
relationships, foster anddevelop these relationships, and
then hold on to them.
How is it from an agentperspective?
Like, do you have to likedevelop these relationships, or
is it more you uh going to setathlete manager or set media

(21:15):
contact and trying to work ondeals and stuff like that?
Like, what is kind of like moreof the nuts and bolts for for
that like side of the business?

SPEAKER_01 (21:24):
Yeah, it's about building and yeah, managing
those relationships.
It's uh yeah, it's sort of thatthat long-term goal of uh you
know not pestering every everybrand manager with every athlete
that wants to sign with them,but but figure out what the
athlete wants so you have soyou're like actually have a good

(21:47):
partnership for this brand.
Let's talk.
Um yeah, so it's about you knowthinking long term and keeping
those uh relationships going.
Um yeah, I mean they're once youknow who they are, you you can
walk up to them and haveconversations with them at races
or at other events.
Um these people are involved inthe sport and they like talking

(22:10):
to people in the sport.
Um, so yeah, that's and at thispoint trail running is small
enough that it they are stillapproachable, and that's that's
really cool.

SPEAKER_02 (22:18):
Yeah.
That's true too.
These people are not like superunable to get in touch with like
all you gotta do is peruseLinkedIn and there's there's
ways.

SPEAKER_01 (22:27):
Yeah, I mean your email probably goes their spam
folder, but if you send them aLinkedIn, they'll probably go
find it.
That's true.

SPEAKER_02 (22:33):
That's true.
Um, I think this is a reallyimportant time for this pod,
just because, like, given whereit is and on the calendar,
right?
Like, we're kind of deep in inthe heart of contract season
right now.
Like, you know, within the nextmonth or two, like athletes are
going to be talking about wherethey'll be making these changes.
I think this is really importantbecause there's a lot of
athletes that listen to thisthat are kind of on that bubble

(22:55):
that really want to becomeelites or get contracts and
things like that.
From your perspective, like,dude, I know this is a very
open-ended question, but likewhat kind of advice do you have
for athletes that are trying tolike make it in the sport now?
Like, is consistency moreimportant?
Is it one-hit wonder stuff whereyou're going and winning one big
race?
Like, how what advice would youhave for athletes?

SPEAKER_01 (23:19):
Yeah, uh, yeah, November's pretty exciting.
It's I think, you know, I I feellike it by this time most people
have like wrapped up theirnegotiations.
Um, so like yeah, advice foradvice for people trying to do
it is uh yeah, definitelyconsistency.
Um, you gotta go the rightraces, you gotta go to the big

(23:40):
stages and prove yourself.
Um and yeah, just keep doing itfor the right reasons.
Find the races you love thathappen to be big stages and
throw down.
Um I know like you know, likeWill Murray at Black Canyon, he
got a gold ticket, wasn't ableto race, and coming to Havelina,

(24:02):
it's he had to prove himself toyou know just show the world
that he belongs on that stage,and it was cool to see him do
that.
Um yeah, and then outside of theresults, he's gotta figure out a
way to stand out.
Um whether if you're anoutspoken personality in the
sport or you know, a deepthinker and uh you know have
good thoughts for podcasts andInstagram posts.

(24:25):
Um I think just yeah, you justgotta find a way to stand out
and have the consistent results.

SPEAKER_02 (24:33):
On that topic, um so this is interesting.
I I I've wondered this, I don'tknow.
Like I've had someconversations.
Excuse me.
Just getting over a cold.
Um these like what what reallymatters besides like the the
performances?
Like what are these athletemanagers looking at?
Like, does it really actuallymatter if you write a sub stack?

(24:54):
Like, does it actually matter ifyou have a voice outside?
Like, is that actually value oris it really just brand
dependent?

SPEAKER_01 (25:01):
I I think it's definitely brand dependent.
Um I think the one thing thebrands want are like genuine
good people.
Um, you know, and that's whythey want to have conversations
with potential athletes is justto figure out if there's a
connection there, figure out ifyou're putting up a facade,
figure out if you're a goodperson, because they want they

(25:23):
just want good people who can uhwho can run fast.
Um, you know, if you have largeaudiences in Substack or
Instagram, that's it's not gonnahurt you.
Um uh but and yeah, at the endof the day, you just gotta have
consistent results.
Um yeah, that's that's the mostimportant.

SPEAKER_02 (25:42):
Yeah.
It's interesting, man.
I don't know, there's someathletes in the sport, and I'm
not gonna name names justbecause that's weird, but like
there are a few like reallyconsistent athletes in the sport
that are just so talented andhave done really well.
Um and I just find it sointeresting that some athletes
just can't get contracts, andit's more on the short trail
side.
Like um, you know, you seeathletes get, I don't know, on

(26:03):
the podium of Broken Arrow 46kthis year and then go win
speedgoat and do all theseamazing things, qualify for
worlds, and still can't gettheir foot in the door.
Like, what is that just brandsbeing brands, or like what what
is that?
Is it is it just because shorttrails is not as much valued as
long trail?
Like, how did brands kind oflook at that?

SPEAKER_01 (26:23):
I think there's a little like serendipity with it
all, like sort of like the righttime, right place.
Um, you know the right people,you talk to the right people,
you have the rightrelationships.
Um that's definitely a part ofit across you know all genres of
trail running, just the righttime, right place.
Um yeah, as far as yourquestion, like short trail

(26:46):
stuff.
Um I think definitely in this,you know, in our country, we
heavily value the ultra scene.
Um I don't know if that's rightor wrong, but that's that's the
American way to go after the thebiggest and the best thing.
Um I think there will be morepossibilities for you know short
trail in the future.

(27:07):
Um, you know, I like Worlds wasa good example, the short trail
races, the mountain classic.
There were high-levelcompetitive races, and I think
they'll continue to be so forthe next few years.
Um Golden Trail is another youknow exciting proving ground if
you can get on that train.
Um yeah, but like you mentioned,like our sort of national short

(27:29):
series races, like like theCirque series, for instance.

SPEAKER_00 (27:33):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (27:34):
Um Yeah, I definitely agree that those
don't those aren't really likethe highest they uh they don't
get the most attention.

SPEAKER_00 (27:42):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (27:43):
Um yeah, I don't know why that is.
I is it you know, it could beyou know, it could be the brand
not offering the the highestbonuses to bring the competitors
that you then go race.
Um and so yeah, I mean if you'relooking for trunk contracts, you
gotta figure out where theelites go and go and race them

(28:03):
um more than just going to findraces to win, if that makes any
sense.

SPEAKER_02 (28:10):
It does.
It does.
Well, I I guess it's such anAmerican thing, like I said,
like we or like you said, we dovalue uh the bigger, longer I
don't I I just don't get it.
Like, what is that to where weput so much emphasis?
Because like you've run the Rut50K, you've spent a lot of time
with the Rut.
Like that's such a like speciallike race to the Montana scene.

(28:30):
That's just I would classifythat relatively as a short trail
racing series.
Um broken arrow, short trailracing series.
Like some of the best races inour country are short trail.
I don't know why we put so muchvalue on I don't know, on the
longer stuff when I thinkthere's just there's quite a lot
there for the short stuff.

SPEAKER_01 (28:50):
For sure.
I mean broken arrow, yeah.
The broken arrow 23k is like thebiggest proving ground in Ultra
right now, I think.
Um yeah, I love the rut.
26k is pretty pretty special.
And yeah, there are a handful ofcompetitors that could show up
for that.
Um yeah, man.
I it's hard to say is you know,it's whether the brands are
deciding where to put theirmoney in the longer stuff

(29:12):
because they see more of uh youknow return on investment uh
growing the ultra scene, andthat probably has something to
do with it.
Um but I think you know, withthe growth of Golden Trail
across the world, I think thingswill pick up in that scene, you
know, with their signing with uhHBO and um I think that'll help.

(29:32):
I hope that'll help.

SPEAKER_02 (29:34):
That'd be dope.
That would be dope.
I I totally agree.
Yeah, it's crazy, man.
Like you can watch now, yeah,like any golden like the golden
trail final on HBO Max orwhatever.
And um Yeah, you can't do thatfor most of the sport, which I
think is really cool.
So that opens up more avenuesfor more folks to come in and uh
I guess just entry points aswell uh to do the sport, which I

(29:54):
think grows it in its entirety.
Uh I want to shift gears andtalk money with you.
Uh and I don't Know how much youcan answer to this, and I can
cut this out if it makes yousquit like squirmish, but like I
I've heard a lot of talk in thelast few weeks about there's
trail athletes making 500k ayear, and this is like such a
hot button topic.
I must have had this sent to melike 20 or 30 times.

(30:16):
I personally, from the people Iknow, thought some of it was BS,
and I've heard also had peopletell me like that's legit.
As an agent in the sport, asperson with contacts, like is
that legit?
Like, what are you what are yourthoughts on this?

SPEAKER_01 (30:32):
Um yeah, it's a million dollar question.

SPEAKER_02 (30:35):
But pun intended, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (30:37):
Um yeah, I think there are a handful of people
making like good good money inthe sport.
Um, you know, it's hard to saythose numbers.
Um and I think you know, themore those top people are paid,
the better for everyone else.
Yes.
Um yeah, I don't I like yeah,you just I just all hearsay

(31:00):
unless you have first personcontact and first person
numbers.

SPEAKER_02 (31:03):
Literally 50-50.
Like half the people I spoke tothat are like were pretty legit
were like, yeah, no way.
Half the people were like, yep,100% this is real.
That's kind of interesting.

SPEAKER_01 (31:13):
Um yeah, I think I like I'm definitely focusing my
attention on making sureeveryone else gets paid more.
That's right.
Yeah, you know, like a risingtide lifts all lifts all ships.
So, you know, if the highestpeople in the sport can make
more, then hopefully the thepeople who are just signing
contracts won't be signingcontracts anymore for five

(31:35):
thousand dollars.
They they'll be starting attwenty.
I think that's I think that's agood that's what sh what we
should be focusing on instead ofwho's making the most and what
they're making.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (31:45):
No, I totally and that's kind of where I'm going,
is like if that's the case andthere is some truth to that,
then I my hope would be thatthere is gonna be a lot more
full-time athletes in the sportwithin the next five to ten
years.
And it's going to just continueto raise the sport up.
Um, even for, I don't know, youcould say B tier, C tier
athletes, where there's gonna bejust more availability for money

(32:06):
to be made and they can uh gofull-time or at least work a
heck of a lot less and focusmore on their craft.

SPEAKER_01 (32:13):
Yeah, it'd be cooler to have brands support people
more all in so they don't haveto have that part-time job.
Um, you know, I've heard likesuggestions of having minimum
contracts in order to be like apro runner.
Um you know, maybe somethinglike PTRA could have that that
started, you know, only having aminimum contract a lot of 10

(32:35):
grand in salary, and thenaddition travel and stuff.
Um yeah, that's that's a coolidea um to support these people
right from the start, you know,to give them an opportunity to
perform their best um as they'rebreaking out.

SPEAKER_00 (32:50):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (32:50):
So that way you're that way you're a full-time
athlete, you know, at the age of25 instead of you're 20, you
know, for five years you'reworking a part-time job and
being a full-time athlete.
That's hard.
Um and you know, that would alsoprogress and grow the sport a
lot more if you're if we're fullin um supporting our best level
athletes.

(33:11):
Um you know, and that's I mean,yeah, installing some sort of
contract minimum would be veryhard.
I think also the flip side of itis that there are many people
eager to be a professionalathlete and they will they will
sign anything for for thattitle, whether it means
something or not.
Um they just want that image.

(33:31):
Um yeah, so it is veryinteresting to balance all that
stuff and to make sure you knoweveryone's happy.
Um yeah, I think you know, as weexpect more out of our athletes,
they will need more money.
Um you know, traveling Europetwo or three times a year is is
not cheap.

SPEAKER_02 (33:52):
All right, in a perfect world, like League Min,
how how do we get like a leagueminimum?
How could we make that happen?
Because I think that would belike great for the sport because
it rises up and there will bemore money all around.
Like I dude, I I I bring up thesame question for like athlete
healthcare.
I have this like quite a fewprofessional athletes I'm very
close with that don't make a lotof money, especially on the

(34:13):
short trail side.
And healthcare comes up all thetime and it's a constant
question.
It's like, how do we get, youknow, especially everyone's an
independent contractor?
It's uh it's a funky thing inthat way.
People have to get sometimescrazy surgeries, the medical
bills add up.
Outside of League Minimum, likehow do we how do we get medical
involved?
Like, like how do we uh I don'tknow, make it a better sport all

(34:35):
around for our athletes?

SPEAKER_01 (34:37):
Yeah, it is like the scary reality where your your
career just is on a thin edge.
And if things go well, you riseup and yeah, like if you said
you end up with a large surgery,you you drop out of the sport,
it seems like.
And that's yeah, that's notideal.
Um, I think, yeah, in order tohave some sort of minimum, you'd
have to have all the brands onboard.

(34:58):
Um, I think the PTRA might havethe power to do that.
It is a weird thing with thesport, is that we don't have one
oversight committee ororganization that couldn't you
know create that uh contractminimum.
Um yeah, healthcare is also abig thing.
Um you know, luckily the Europeor European friends don't really

(35:19):
have to worry about that toomuch.
But yeah, in the States it isscary.

SPEAKER_02 (35:23):
Um uniquely American American issue.

SPEAKER_01 (35:28):
Yeah.
Um I think some people aregetting, you know, like PT uh
stipends now, which is helpful.
Um, you know, hopefully thatcurbs some of their some of
their bills for healthcare.
Um yeah, and you know, frankly,I I'm not sure, you know, on the
road scene if they havehealthcare in their contracts.

(35:50):
Um I might actually do someinvestigation in that because
that sounds pretty interesting.

SPEAKER_00 (35:54):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (35:55):
Um, but yeah, I think it's a necessity, yeah,
especially as we get moreprofessional, more way faster as
the money increases.
Um, yeah, you wouldn't want itweighing on you know one surgery
if you happen to fall and breaka leg.

SPEAKER_02 (36:10):
Yeah, yeah.
I don't know.
I was spitballing this with DanKurtz somewhere recently, and we
were talking about like athletehealthcare, and we were also
talking about um out ofcompetition testing pool.
And people are like, well, youknow, how do we fund this?
How do we get something likethis funded?
I think at the very like basicline, uh this is kind of a crazy
thing, but like maybe we'dfigure out a way to get the

(36:31):
brands to fund it.
And whether it's like some sortof small, I don't know, you
raise the price of your shoefive cents and it goes to a
fund, like an in you know whatI'm saying?
It like goes to some sort oflike trail running fund.
And I mean, I dude, I did themath on it like semi-recently.
I forget it off the top of myhead, but like it's quite a few
millions of pairs of shoes soldwithin the last like X amount of
time.
And if you start to do the mathon it, like you can get a

(36:53):
tangible amount of like moniesto to cover uh athlete
healthcare, cover uh out ofseason competition testing.
Like if you were to just raisethe price of your shoe like five
cents to ten cents, which couldwork kind of interesting.

SPEAKER_01 (37:06):
Yeah, I know that like yeah, I mean money is tight
in the sport.
Like I've heard of uh RDs thatare introducing drug testing
instead of prize money.
And and I think that yeah,that's important.
I don't know you know which oneshould come first, but yeah,
establishing your anti-dopingefforts is a great step.

(37:29):
Um because you know, whetherthere's prize money or not, the
brands have bonuses for thatrace, and you don't want to be
caught doping and getting abrand bonus.
Um yeah, some sort of fundinghas to come from somewhere to
get out of competition testing.
And um, yeah, it seems likeeveryone's kind of throwing

(37:49):
ideas at the wall and yeah,nothing's stuck yet.
Um I know like with uh likeWorld Athletics was involved
with World Mountain TrailChampionships this year, so I
think that's that brings alittle hope for that out of
competition testing, is thatthey may get involved with that.
Um but yeah, hard to say.

SPEAKER_02 (38:09):
What's your take on it?
You think we need it?
I mean, obviously we're not anOlympic sport yet, like and we
could talk about that and whereyou want the sport to go uh when
we get a little bit later intothe conversation, but like
obviously we need uh some sortof out of season testing pool or
something.
We gotta do something.
I mean, especially on the shorttrail side.
Oh my god, like it's it's out ofcontrol.
Uh it's it's pretty wild rightnow.

(38:31):
So and yeah, a lot of races,especially in the States, dude,
like nobody tests.
Uh I mean, obviously BrokenArrow, but they're only testing
I don't know.
Like I've I'm on the board ofPikes Peak as well, and like I
looked at some of the stuff andI'm like, dude, when like in
2023, I was very surprised athow little athletes were tested

(38:52):
on at the Golden Trail race.
I was like, what?
So yeah, I think we definitelyneed uh there's definitely a
call for more testing.

SPEAKER_01 (39:01):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Um yeah, and you think thebrands would want it to say,
like, here, our athletes areclean all year round.
Uh look at the shoes, it's theall it's all the shoes.
Um yeah, because any you know,competent doper could get around
the race day tests, um, youknow, because the doping helps

(39:24):
their recovery more or helpsthem build, you know, their
fitness.
And they don't really need it onrace day per se.
You just you need to make sureit's out of your system.

SPEAKER_00 (39:33):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (39:33):
Um, yeah, so it yeah, it is it definitely is
pertinent and definitely needsto happen.
Um, yeah, it seems like rightnow it's definitely a wild card,
whether people are tested ornot, it's just kind of random.
And I don't I mean, I don'tthink it's gonna catch anybody,
honestly.

unknown (39:50):
No.

SPEAKER_02 (39:51):
Unless you're really dumb.
Like, I I think that I mean,even now, dude, like you saw the
stuff with like BPC 157 floatingaround the internet, and it's
like uh just the availabilityfor even like college kids to go
get that now, and that's createda whole nother thing.
Like, dude, I wonder how manypeople in trail have been doing
that for years now because it'sbeen available.
Uh it's and it's like virtuallyuntraceable.

(40:12):
So yeah, there's there's a lotof stuff.
I've yeah, I I could do a wholeother podcast on that.
Um, all right, let's pivotbecause I don't want to spend us
uh spend the whole time talkingabout anti-doping and I yeah, I
I don't think we're gonna solveanything with it.
But um dude, you just got backfrom Worlds, you were over
there.
Talk about that experience.
I know it's kind of a a hugekind of left left turn from what
we were talking about, but umYeah, talk about your time out

(40:35):
there and how it was.

SPEAKER_01 (40:37):
Yeah, Worlds was pretty awesome.
Um, it was my first time goingum to one of the world
championships.
Um yeah, it was it was reallycool.
It's a well-organized event, uha lot of excitement in those
towns.
Um it was nothing interestingbecause Con Franc was a tiny
town.
Um, and so most of the teamswere staying outside of the

(40:59):
area.
Um luckily we had a littleapartment right in Ken Frank
Estacion, so it was really cool.
Um yeah, it's pretty exciting tosee you know your favorite
children's wearing your you knowwearing the national kits.
Um because we had we you knowweren't really involved in that
for too long.
Um so it was kind of it wasyeah, cool to see, um, cool to

(41:21):
see that competition.
The courses for the long trailand short trail were pretty
wild.
I ran some of the courses andit's just it was like, how are
people racing on this?
Really?
Okay.
Um yeah, especially, you know,nine, uh eight hours or nine
hours into a race, just youknow, off-trail grassy fields on

(41:42):
a ski slope.
It's like um, it was crazy.
Yeah, super cool.
Um yeah, it's cool to see thosefast people run fast.

SPEAKER_02 (41:52):
Yeah.
Um these particular takeawaysother than like just the just
the overall environment andstuff like that.
Obviously it was your first one,but like Did it was it just like
as far as the atmosphere goes,and you see all these countries
competing against one anotherand so many people assembling in
one area uh you know for thesake of the sport?
Like, does it do you think thiscould like work as an Olympic

(42:14):
sport?
Or do you think like maybe thethe world's like platform might
be better?

SPEAKER_01 (42:22):
Yeah, it was cool to see for sure the highest people
in the sport go and race there,you know, like Tovey, um Jim and
Katie.
Um yeah, it was cool to seethem, you know, dive into it and
make it their A race for thefall and go out and go win.
Yeah, to prove its legitimacy.
This is super cool.

(42:43):
Um yeah, you know, it's not asbig as like UTMB week or
anything.
Um because it is interestingthat they're only elite level
races.
Um you don't have, you know, youdon't have uh pack middle of the
Packers, back of the Packers,there's no Congo lines.
It's just those people runningfast.
Um yeah, I think you know, onceJim and Katie showed up, it'd

(43:07):
prove that it's a competition,it's a it's a legit competition,
and I think it will be from thispoint on.
Um, you know, next year I thinkI it has the potential to be a
little more competitive becauseit is later in the calendar, and
so that UTMB and um worldsdouble in 2027, I think will be
more reasonable.

(43:28):
Um and people I yeah, I hopepeople dive into it and bring
even more competition to it.
Um yeah, I think I think it'shere to stay.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (43:37):
Yeah, I I think so too.
And I think it's only I mean,obviously there was a few names
absent from yeah, from athletesthat participated in like the
UTMB weekend and stuff likethat, but I I don't know.
Like you I I would have neverguessed like Tovey Alexander was
gonna put on a performance likethe one she did, and like same
with Katie, like crazy, crazyperformances.

(43:57):
Um yeah, it is gonna be reallyinteresting to see what happens
when we get to South Africa,like how because I think that's
November, if I remembercorrectly, on the 27th calendar.
So it's gonna be spaced out alittle bit more.
And yeah, hopefully it gets alittle deeper and we'll see.
Like, I think that's the bigquestion is like, is this the
this is it is this gonna be likethe de facto like big thing

(44:18):
moving forward?
I think that's the questionthough.
Do brands buy in?
Because it's a weird thing toget the brands to buy in if
you're only wearing their shoesand you're not necessarily
wearing their kit, right?

SPEAKER_01 (44:28):
Right.
But also the thing that seemedto happen is that the
federations are buying in moreso than the brands, like the
French team having team campsand you know, banning their
athletes from competing at UTMB.
Like that's cool.

SPEAKER_00 (44:42):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (44:42):
And you know, they're paying for those trips
and they're paying for thoseteam camps.
Uh or like the SpanishFederation apparently was doing
the same thing and offering hugebonuses for their athletes to
finish top five, top ten.
Um, you know, like 20,000 eurosfor top, I think it was a top
five performance from theSpanish Federation.

SPEAKER_02 (45:01):
It's not bad.

SPEAKER_01 (45:02):
Something like that.
Yeah, that's that's yeah, that'smore bonuses than most people
get in any race.
Um, so I think that's a coolside of it to see the actual
federations buy-in.
Yeah, because if the brands aregonna slip up, then hopefully
someone else takes advantage.

SPEAKER_02 (45:16):
Yeah.
I don't think we're gonna havethat happen on the UT US ATF
side, unfortunately.
Like maybe, I don't know.
It would have to be like anexternal ex I don't even know if
that would work if there wouldbe like an external partner uh,
you know, to come in and likemaybe privately uh try to fund
the thing outside of USATF.
I don't even know if that's evenpossible.
But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (45:37):
Yeah.
Um I yeah, definitely USATFcould support those children a
little more.
Um, you know, at the same time,there are huge number of
federations that athletes paytheir own way to the to the dang
event.
Yeah, yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_02 (45:53):
That sucks.
Skyrunning.

SPEAKER_01 (45:54):
Yeah, it's yeah, yeah.
Um so I think I think anotherthing that could happen that
maybe needs to happen is youknow, World Athletics forces um
these federations to pay fortheir athletes' travel to play,
pay for their uniforms.
Um you know, because if youwant, you know, and even like
you know, pre-training trips, ifyou want to perform your best,
you can't just go out and bethere for four days, you have to

(46:18):
be there for weeks.
Yeah.
And uh and see the especially atContinent Frank to see that
course.
That was it seemed like a lot ofpeople who s you know invested
the time to scout the course didwell.
Yeah.
Except for Michelina.

SPEAKER_02 (46:33):
Sorry, Mike, I had to throw that one in there.
Um no, I uh let's let's chipgears though.
I do want to talk about thebrand aspect in that.
Like, I don't did you happen toget a chance to read Caleb
Olsen's article that he wrote onSubstack about worlds.
He like threw out a coupledifferent like I thought were
actually like semi-constructiveand like decent ideas on how to

(46:54):
get more of the brands to justgive a crap just because it
seemed like I don't know, it'sit a lot of it is getting buy-in
from them too for forperformance bonuses too, so
athletes can get bonus and itgives them a little bit more of
an incentive to maybe fork itforego what is the big thing in
UTMB now, and maybe go dorepresent their country or
something like that.

(47:15):
Like, do you think there's likea world where brands actually
care about that and like willbonus for something like that in
the future as more and more asthere's more buy-in, if you
will?

SPEAKER_01 (47:27):
Yeah, I think so.
I mean, track runners aregetting bonuses for world champs
in their in their genre.
Um, yeah, so why can't the samething happen for trail?
I don't know it seems like asilly conversation to have.
Like it should be happening.

SPEAKER_00 (47:41):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (47:42):
Um, I mean, I like Word Off Legs was a little more
strict this year with logos andpeople were duct taping logos,
you know, so that's definitely anegative for the brand.
But you know, track runners onlyhave their shoes, like and then
the brands are still giving thembonuses.
Yeah, yeah, that's so why can'tthe same thing happen for trail?

SPEAKER_02 (48:03):
Yeah.
Wait, people were duct tapinglogos.
I'm I'm not aware of this.
You gotta film in.

SPEAKER_01 (48:08):
Yeah, there's a lot of there's a lot of rules in
terms of like logos and what howmany logos logos can be on
clothing.
Um like Nike had to s like Nikewas cover or producing shorts
with only one Nike swoosh onthem to give the team um like I
guess logos that were on vestshad to be covered up if they

(48:29):
weren't the Federation's sponsorand they weren't to a certain
size.
Um yeah, if you look back,there's people with duct tape on
the back of their vests coveringup, you know, Hoka logos or
North Face logos or Nike logonot Nike logos.

SPEAKER_02 (48:45):
Interesting.
Okay, all right.

SPEAKER_01 (48:47):
Yeah, there's a lot of rules.

SPEAKER_02 (48:48):
Oh my gosh.
Okay.
Yeah, we've definitely got toget some stuff figured out for
2027, but I guess we're headedsomewhat in the right direction.

SPEAKER_01 (48:56):
Yeah, I'm excited for 2027.
Um it's cool that it's kind ofcool to have that, you know,
that long-term two-year cycle inour sport that we haven't had.
Um a little baby like Olympiccycle almost.
It's cool.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (49:11):
Yeah, I was gonna bring that up.
Like, what do you do?
So you do like that better.
I don't know, dude.
I think it'd be I think it'salso kind of fun if we select
every year for I don't know,just because we athletes race so
much and there's like it'spretty much a year-round
calendar at this point.
Like if we had like a de factoworld championship every year,
like if UTMB happens every year,it's obviously like our um the

(49:32):
weekend is the de facto, whetherit's OCC, CCC, UTMB, like those
are kind of the de facto likedistance championships.
Like it'd be cool if we also hadlike a de facto world
championship every year.

SPEAKER_01 (49:44):
Uh I don't think so.
The calendar's too full.
Yeah.
Um, I mean, if you have ifyou're racing UTMB and racing a
UTM qualifier, and then ifyou're racing a world qualifier
and then world, that's fullraces right there.
Yeah.
That's crazy.
And then, you know, it dependson if your Federation has resume

(50:04):
spots or if you're racing forall those spots.
Um, yeah, the counter gets fullquick.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (50:10):
Well, it's also interesting too.
I was thinking about this as faras the short draw went, like,
and this is no like uh I don'tknow, like Toby Alexanderson
obviously had like such a crazy,like insane performance.
That's a different conversation.
But like I think about someonelike Fred friend Fred Transard,
who's such a good skyrunner andis so good on terrain like that.
If that was a different type ofcourse, my question is, would

(50:32):
Fred have been the de factoworld champion?
And you can kind of spin thatinto if this was to be an every
year thing, let's say we hadUTMB, right?
And then similar after maybeNovember we had worlds.
If UTMB is a more competitiverace than worlds, uh someone
wins UTMB and a different personwins worlds, who's really the
world champion?
And kind of kind of changes theconversation, right?

SPEAKER_01 (50:55):
Yeah, I think it's it's definitely cool that world
championships move so that wayit highlights you know different
aspects of trail running.

SPEAKER_00 (51:01):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (51:01):
Um yeah, like yeah, this see those two people with
sort of that orienteeringbackground win the short trail,
and then like the 100 milespecialist, the UTV specialist,
like Jim and Katie, this smashthe long trail.
Like those are two different twodifferent niches of the same
sport.
And then like um uh Cape Town isgonna be even different.

(51:22):
Um so it's gonna be interestingto see what specialist thrives
there.

SPEAKER_02 (51:26):
Yeah.
All right, I'm gonna shiftgears.
I want to talk about the sportin general.
Like, are you stoked about whereit's headed as far as like
growth?
Um and like kind of where it'sat now and where you think it's
going.

SPEAKER_01 (51:38):
Yeah, I I'm just full of excitement.
You know, every year it's likethis is the big year, and then
next year comes about and allthese races happen, you're like,
wait, this is the big year.
And that keeps going and goingand going every year.
Um I uh yeah, I don't we're notgonna know how big we get until
we get there.
Um I'm yeah, I'm just full ofexcitement.

(52:01):
I think it seems like we're at astage where people are, you
know, putting more money intothe sport, like sort of like,
you know, with Nike shiftingtheir focus in ACG and going all
in on trail running with thescope of ACG.
Um, you know, everyone trying tobuild these crazy shoes.

(52:22):
And um, yeah, I'm just full ofexcitement.
It seems like people are slowlygetting paid more, it seems like
bonuses are increasing, youknow, participation is
increasing, people are spendingmillions on the sport in the
States.
It's pretty impressive.
And at some point we'll nolonger be that, you know, that
niche sport we were, I trulythink.

(52:45):
Um and I think you know, morethan a blip in the radar, I
think trail running will like behere to stay.
It'll build and build and buildand you know it'll stick around.
I think a lot of these a lot ofthese niche sports, you know,
have have roller coasters, havefluctuated.
Um, I don't know, thinking oflike uh like surfing or or like

(53:07):
inline skating.
Yeah, skateboarding, inlineskating.
Things fluctuate.
Um, but I think children's stillon the rise.

SPEAKER_02 (53:14):
Yeah.
I mean it's crazy, man.
I literally just read an articletoday that they're talking
there's someone's making a movieabout um, I think it's uh a
woman running the Badwater race,something like that.
And there was uh I think thedirector was just at Havelina or
something like that.
I was like, wow, this is kind ofcrazy.

SPEAKER_01 (53:31):
Yeah, a director who's already ran ultras and has
you know has a good it seemslike has a good uh feel for the
scene.
Yeah, it's supposed to be like asome a thriller, a horror of
some sort.
We'll see what involvingBadwater 135.
Um yeah, that should beinteresting.
I'm sure I'm sure all of ustrailrunners will be in the in

(53:52):
the if we go see in thetheaters, we'll just be like
rolling our eyes.

SPEAKER_02 (53:55):
Right, right, right.
Well it's like how did ourlittle sport just like get into
the zeitgeist so quickly?
Yeah, like what she hasn't evenvomited yet.

SPEAKER_01 (54:03):
What is a depiction?
She's not taking her salt.
Like she's not even running onthe white line at Battle Water.
What is she doing?

SPEAKER_02 (54:12):
Well, do you think like the the sh like um just
like the mom and pop races willsurvive?
Like you think that's like athing long term, or do you think
it'll the sport will eventuallyget so big and so professional
that'll like start to push thatstuff out?

SPEAKER_01 (54:26):
No, I I think they'll survive.
I I think each little area ofthe country has their own
special races.
Like here in Missoula, we haveour own little special races.
Sometimes the pros come to them,sometimes they don't.
And I think it's cool to havethose big races in every
community.
Um, you know, to see who thefastest runner is in that

(54:47):
community.
I think I think people willsurvive because there is a I
think there's a large swath ofthe people in the sport that
like the grassroots aspect ofit.
You know, they like just paying$150 or whatever and running a
50k, and you know, they knowthere's gonna be watermelon at
every station.

SPEAKER_02 (55:07):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (55:08):
Which is I think that's really cool.
I mean, that's grounding.

SPEAKER_02 (55:11):
It is.
I I think we can have a worldwhere it we coexist in kind of
both uh like we can have thepointy tip of the spear in your
most competitive races in thesport, and I think you can also
have the race where like there'snot even timing chips, and
people are just like writingdown the time when you go and
cross the finish line.
Uh yeah, it's fun.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(55:31):
Um all right, dude.
We're almost at about an hour.
Pretty pretty close to it now.
I think we're good.
I think we covered most of it.
What do you think?
Is there anything you want toget to that we you don't think
we've covered?

SPEAKER_01 (55:43):
Oh man.

unknown (55:45):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (55:45):
I'd be dude.

SPEAKER_02 (55:46):
I could do two hours if we if you get me talking.

SPEAKER_01 (55:49):
Oh man, I think you know, there's a lot of stuff I
still want to learn this, learnin the sport.
Um like, you know, one big topicis European versus American
contracts.
Um, all right.
Yeah, that's a huge topic.
Um yeah, I mean, I think I thinkAmericans are doing pretty well
overall.

SPEAKER_02 (56:09):
You think so I've heard this that we are doing
better compared to theEuropeans.
That and it I don't know, likethe only thing I could take is
kind of like short trail versusuh I just know it's valued a
little bit differently, butoverall Americans are yeah,
doing substantially better.

SPEAKER_01 (56:26):
Yeah, if you know if we're leading the way, then
we're leading the way, which iskind of it's kind of interesting
when Europe you know when Europehas so much more history and in
both the short trail and longtrail in the sport.
Um but I think that just goesalong with you know our brands
where they want to spend money.
Um people are willing to spendmore money in the sport in the

(56:47):
States.
Um yeah, there's a lot moregoing on here.
That's another thing about youknow, when I went to Cannes
Frank in Spain is that everybodyis way more casual about trail
running.
Um people are going out runningtheir early morning runs are
start at 10 a.m.
Like it's pretty casual.
I think that's that's prettyreflective in their culture

(57:09):
overall, and then in their uhyou know, in their professional
contracts and their careers,it's just just different.

SPEAKER_02 (57:16):
Yeah.
Like what do you think as far Imean I guess it's just more
dollars spent overall, you thinkmore invested in America and the
sport?
Or do you think it's more inEurope overall?

SPEAKER_01 (57:26):
Oh I would say I think it's probably more in the
states.
I think.
Um Yeah, especially it seemslike these American-based
companies are just trying togrow, grow, grow.
And so they are investing moreand more and more.
Um yeah, that's what I that'sthe that's the roots of it that

(57:49):
I would think.

SPEAKER_02 (57:49):
Do you think the dollars, I mean, this is a I
mean, this is a hard question toanswer, but like as far as the
dollar, I think just think ofthe pie chart, right?
Like, how much of that do youthink goes to athletes, how much
goes to media and like theirmarketing budget, how much of
that goes to shareholders?
Like, do you have an idea oflike how much of that actually
goes to the athletes as far aslike for every X amount that you

(58:12):
make as a I don't know, as abrand, uh, what you can divvy
back kind of like reinvested asfar as like capital expenditure?

SPEAKER_01 (58:21):
Yeah, I think it's pretty small.
That's just my feeling.
I don't have any facts, but Ithink it's pretty small.
Um, you know, I think I stillthink most trilunners are you
know signing signing contractsthat are 20 grand is probably
the average.
10 to 20 is the average.
Um, like a few weeks ago Ilooked at that old um survey

(58:44):
from Ultrarunner Mag when theysurveyed the pro runners and
what they made.
Um back then I think the averagewas like yeah, 10 to 15.
Um yeah, I definitely think thatthat type of survey needs to
happen again.
Yes.
So we can get so you know, notso only people in the sport can
get a good footing in the data,but I think it's important for

(59:07):
you know the larger audiencejust to know you know what their
favorite trail runner is making.
Um because I like it's prettyinteresting, you know, most of
the professional trail runnersare the poorest people in the
start line.
Usually.
Like, yeah, usually.
It's I don't know, yeah.
One of my favorite quotes, Idon't remember who said it, is
that your favorite trail your itwas your favorite runner is

(59:30):
poor.
Um and I think that that's Imean that's an interesting part
of our sport, is that it has itkind of seen as more of like a
hobby, like a passion.
Like you should do it becauseyou love to do it, you shouldn't
do it because you want to getpaid.

SPEAKER_02 (59:44):
Um the soul sport aspect.
Well, dude, I I don't know ifyou know the statistic, but like
I think it was the iron theysurveyed like Iron Man athletes,
uh not professionals, but justlike the average uh person that
like participates in Iron Man.
I think like The average salaryis like well over 100-150,000,
somewhere in that range.
Like it's it's relatively high.

(01:00:05):
And you compare that to like uhyou just compare the average
participant, and then you thinkof like what the average
trailrunner is making, like on astart line, it's uh 50, 60, 70%
less.
It's absolutely crazy.
Uh it's yeah, I don't know.
What do you think about like Idon't know, you think about the
NFL, you think about NBA andlike most of these large

(01:00:26):
organizations, and likecontracts are very um out there,
spoken about, discussed.
We have a lot of NDAs behind ourstuff.
Uh we can't really talk aboutanything unless it's behind
closed doors, and then we'restill not supposed to talk about
it.
Do you think there should beNDAs or do you think people
should be allowed to talk?

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:44):
I mean, I think ideally there shouldn't be NDAs.
But I think right now it's justthe reality of the sport.
I like everybody kind of knowswhat everyone else is making,
but you're not allowed to sayanything.
It's the weirdest thing.
Um but for the time being, Ithink there'll be NDAs unless

(01:01:05):
like PTRA steps up big time andand petitions against it.
Um Yeah, and I don't know thereason why NDA started to begin
with.
You know, everyone people sayit's because the brands don't
want people to know how littlethey pay their athletes, but I d
I don't know if that's true.
Um yeah, it's interesting.

(01:01:26):
And I um, you know, people worryabout people's feelings getting
hurt, and I think that is apossibility with trail running
where it is in the sport rightnow.
Is you're able to, you know,people that are slower than you
are able to negotiate beercontracts, not just because of
their performances, but becauseof other factors, other
variables.
Yeah.

(01:01:46):
Um yeah, I mean, ideally itwould be cool to see you know
your podcast talk aboutso-and-so signing this amount,
and you know, and Finn's podcasttalk about so-and-so signing
this many years and this bonus,and that would be cool.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:59):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:59):
And maybe in a few years that'll happen.
But um, yeah, I'd be curiousalso to know like whether you
know those Iron Man pro athletesare signing NDAs or um these
other sort of niche areas aresigning NDAs as well.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:12):
Yeah.
Well, it's weird, man.
Like it's it's weird becauseit's like in the zeitgeist.
Like last year, Kelly Newlandhelped Tara get the big
contract, and like it was likeassumed but not assumed, but an
article came out and like therewas a figure thrown out there or
a range of a figure, and it waslike, okay, so that kind of
breaks an NDA unless it's likevery specific.

(01:02:32):
It it gets weird, right?
Where it's like we're kind ofgetting in the direction where
more stuff is being open.
Also, dude, I talk to so manyathletes, and people are like so
nice and like open and likethrow numbers out there, and
just like, dude, I don't feelcomfortable like sharing like
stuff like that.
That's weird like to have thatconversation.
But people feel comfortable andlike feel like talking about it.

(01:02:53):
So I feel like, yeah, it wouldbe cool.
It would be great from a podcastperspective.
Yeah, if we sign, I don't know,let's say I'm just gonna throw a
random athlete out there andsay, you know, Jane Doe makes, I
don't know, signs a deal withHoker for 600,000 a year or
something like that.
Like it would be great tocelebrate that athlete.
Um, but yeah, we can't yeah, theconversation.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:13):
Yeah, I think that's why like ultra um allow that as
a sort of like a marketingpiece.
Like, look at us, we're we'resupporting our athletes.
Um you know, we're supporting aa woman athlete who did the AT
this fast.
Like, look at us, this is cool.
So I think that was that was acool move for them in terms of a

(01:03:33):
marketing aspect.
Um yeah, but I was I would haveloved to see an exact number.
Yeah.
And you know, like, and she'sgetting health care and this
much travel.
Um, yeah, that would have beencool to see.
And I always wonder, you know,with Mothe's contracts being
only 10,000 to 20,000.
I don't it would I would wonderif a brand would, you know, take

(01:03:58):
legal actions against someonefor a contract that's only 10
grand.
What are you gonna sue me for,dude?

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:03):
Like you're gonna take my my my van?

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:05):
Like yeah, yeah, you're gonna spend 10 grand
suing me over my 10 grandcontract?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:10):
I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:11):
I mean, I yeah, who knows?
Who knows?
It just it depends on yeah.
I don't know, dude.
I've dealt with some reallynasty corporate lawyers like in
in my job, like in yeah, you'dbe surprised on like how weird
the corporate world is with someof that stuff.
Uh but yeah, it it's it'sinteresting.
I I don't know.
Um yeah, I don't know.

(01:04:32):
What what do you want to pivotinto next?
What other topics do you thinkwe gotta get into?

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:37):
Oh man, I just yeah, I mean, talking about athlete
pay, I think there's this a lotof opportunity for those
non-endemic sponsorships.
Um I guess I saw a photo of uhBaptiste who won Daniel Defu.
Yeah, he had an ad on the backof his vest for Back Market,
which is like electronics resalecompany.

(01:04:59):
It was on the back of his vest,so that's kind of funny.
But I was like, wow, like how A,how did he get that how did he
get that connection?
And B, how much did they pay forthat ad that was you know, like
on the back of his vest?
Like that's that's cool.
And I think there's moreopportunities there for the for
that.
Um and it's just about I meanthat's kind of what I'm excited
to tackle is finding thoseopportunities and seeking them

(01:05:22):
out and seeing you know whatareas of the economy likes trail
running.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:29):
Yeah.
Well, dude, I think there's moremoney for athletes going that
direction.
Like, I don't know, you see I'veseen more and more now.
Um, what is the the Ford Broncouh ambassadors?
I'm seeing that pop up more andmore, and that's discussed.
Like I know Julian Carr has beendoing that for a while and a
bunch of other athletes.
And um, yeah, like we need morecars, we need more just stuff.

(01:05:50):
Like it would be a lot of funbecause I I think it the ability
for athletes to make infinitelymore will be there with the
non-endemic brands.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:58):
Yeah, and I think more so than you know,
contacting the largecorporations, it's about like
going to your local dealershipand like maybe getting a lease
for a year.
I don't know.
Um, just like you know, becausethey would love, I feel like a
mountain town Toyota dealershipwould love to support a local
pro who drives the trailheads intheir Tacoma.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:21):
Like, dude, if I could if I could get like Dave's
Hot Chicken or like In N OutBurger to like sponsor me in
some way, shape, or form, I'd beso down, it'd be amazing.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:30):
And yeah, I mean it just takes time, it just takes
connections to find those thoseunique opportunities.
Um and I feel like as the sportgrows, it'll they'll they'll
reveal themselves.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:43):
Yeah, I anything that sticks out to you brand
wise, like what what do youthink would be I don't know,
that was something that we cando.
Like, I don't know.
I hate like the finance worldand the banking world, but like
I feel like there's so muchmoney there and it's so
untapped.
Like I know what is it?
Um is it UBS?
I think sponsors series and all.
So I'm surprised we don't havemore bank sponsored uh like

(01:07:05):
athletes in Europe, which wouldbe interesting, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:08):
Yeah, I think like Cape Town has a bank sponsor.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:11):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:12):
Um yeah, I mean, obviously a bank wouldn't be
cool, but like like uh like alocal RV dealership to get, you
know, uh Winnebago.
Um I think even like rather thanbig banks like your local bank,
um, your local credit unionmight have opportunities.
Um, like like you know, theMountain Town Tourism Councils

(01:07:34):
and the tourism initiativeswould would love pictures of
runners out in the mountains.
Like that's that's a huge draw.
Um, especially when you say, youknow, trail runners spend X
amount of dollars on travel andX amount of dollars yearly on
their sport.
Why don't we bring some of themhere?
Like you know, like fly fishingin here in Montana is a

(01:07:54):
marketing asset for travel.
You know, come to Missoula andfly fish.
And why not come to Missoula andtrail run?
Um Yeah, so I think those thosetourism councils are pretty
cool.
Um yeah, like it's the coolthing because the the
opportunities are prettyendless.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:12):
Yeah, yeah.
I think and I think it'll startto trickle in as we go, as as
everything expands.
I mean, you saw like court likeI don't know, Kodiak cakes, even
like which is I don't know, youcan I guess they're more of an
adjacent brand, still kind ofnon-endemic.
Like even the food color likefood stuff is cool too.
So yeah, it's gonna be fun tosee more brands kind of trickle
in as we go.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:33):
Yeah, and I mean that's I mean that's the cool
thing about us not having rulesfor sponsor logos, is that you
could put a giant ad on the backof your vest and no one will
stop you.
Yeah, you could put a giant logoon the back of your shorts.
Like, go ahead, throw out thecraziest idea, and um it's I
guess it's fine.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:54):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, dude, I remember likewhen the NBA adopted like the uh
they started putting sponsorlogos on their jerseys and
everybody was like up and up,and now it's like a it's like
commonly accepted thing, likeit's on everyone's jersey and
nobody really cares anymore.
Yeah, I it's it's interesting tome, especially on the European
side.
If dude's got like all kinds ofstuff on his vest and and his

(01:09:14):
shorts, like that's that's it'skind of cool.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:17):
Yeah, it seems like the European side is into it.
Like you see like regionsponsoring runners, you know,
like CD and Germont have asponsor for the region they live
in, or mountains ski resortssponsor runners, you know,
people that ski mow in thewinter run in the summer, they
have those sponsorships.
Um yeah, and you know, Europe'sunique because they have those

(01:09:39):
local clubs that'll sponsortroll runners, your local
sporting club.
Um yeah, that's something wedefinitely don't have in the
States that's a littledefinitely unique to that to
that region.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:51):
Yeah, uh for sure.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:53):
All right, dude.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:53):
I think I'm gonna I think we're gonna I think we hit
it all.
I'm gonna uh say thanks so muchfor coming on the pod.
I really appreciate it.
It's a great conversation andthanks, man.

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:02):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Uh yeah, I'm looking forward to2026.
If anybody wants to chat, my uhinbox is open.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:09):
All right, sweet, dude.
Appreciate it.
Yeah, trailhead athletemanagement.
I'll have it linked in the shownotes and uh your contact
information as well.
And yeah, appreciate it, dude.
Thanks, James.
Yeah, dude.
Okay, I think we're good.
Sweet.
Sometimes this lags a littlebit.
What'd you guys think?
Oh man, what a fun episode.
Um, I want to thank Nick so muchfor coming on.
Uh great guy.

(01:10:29):
Um, lots of good questionanswering there.
I know I kind of threw a barrageat him and was kind of all over
the place uh like I normally amwith my questions.
And uh Nick was a champ and gavesome really concise, really
educated, well thought outstuff.
And uh yeah, the guy isdefinitely just a uh just a
really um you know thought,thought, thought leader.

(01:10:51):
There we go.
Thought leader in the sport.
That's what I was going for.
Um guys, the best way you couldsupport Nick is to find him on
Instagram, give him a follow.
If you are an athlete right nowlooking for representation, um
you can find him at TrailheadAthlete Management, both on
Instagram as well as LinkedIn,as well as their website.
All of this is going to belinked in the show notes.
Um if you like Nick as a guy andwant to follow him, you can find

(01:11:12):
him at Nick Cornell on Instagramand give him a follow there as
well.
Guy's an amazing athlete in hisown right, and uh definitely has
a lot to give to the world uhfrom an athlete perspective as
well.
So those are both the places youcan find them.
Like I said, if you're lookingfor representation, check out
Trailhead Athlete Management.
I think don't think you can gowrong there.
Um yeah, all good stuff.
Guys, if you enjoyed the podcastand you're continuing to enjoy

(01:11:34):
it, and we're trying to grow andevolve here and do new things
and change and uh I don't know,turn this thing in a fun
direction.
Um, give us some support.
The best way you can support usis to give us a five-star rating
and review on Apple, Spotify,YouTube, or wherever you consume
your podcasts.
Um we are trying to grow thatYouTube channel.
So find us on YouTube and giveus a subs uh a subscription.

(01:11:55):
Subscribe on that.
That's the only way you're gonnabe able to watch the videos.
I started rolling out the videoson Spotify and just it's harder
to track the numbers and harderto track stuff that way, so
because it doesn't spit it outto uh I don't know, it's a lot
of technical shit.
But like um YouTube.
Check us out on YouTube.
I think that's a channel Ireally want to start growing,
uh, and that's where I'm gonnastart putting the video-based
episodes um so you guys canwatch us on there as well.

(01:12:18):
Um and yeah, if you guys alsowant to support our brand
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(01:12:40):
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Hope you enjoy your week.