#136 - Alicia Vargo

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A broken back, a fractured knee, and nearly a year off running—then podiums at Pikes Peak Ascent, Kodiak, and Moab. That’s the arc Alicia Vargo takes us through, sharing how a brutal dog attack in 2024 unraveled her season and how skate skiing, patience, and stubborn belief stitched it back together. We start with her fresh Moab Trail Half podium and the course’s split personality—slickrock step-ups, sandy slogs, and off-road pavement—before moving into the training mindset that keeps her sharp late in the year.

From there, we head home to Breckenridge. Alicia talks altitude as the quiet performance lever, the surprising strength of the local community, and why winter skimo and skate skiing are the perfect mix to preserve fitness without the pounding. Then we go deep on her recovery: delayed diagnoses, crutches, months of uncertainty, and the tentative first races at Broken Arrow that proved her body could hold. She opens up about Sierre-Zinal’s balcony trail, heat shock, and the crowded chaos of European starts where elbows fly and gels get trampled.

We zoom out to the sport’s big questions. Should women have separate starts or days? Alicia weighs the trade-offs—clear competition and spotlight versus thin fields and lost atmosphere. She revisits the early Nike Trail years, shifting to Hoka, and why the sport once nudged athletes toward ultras due to a lack of short trail opportunities. Now, with Golden Trail, Broken Arrow, and the Rut, short trail finally looks like the welcoming on-ramp for D1 talent and the most TV-ready version of mountain running.

We also talk storytelling. What Coca-Dona got right with long-form livestreams. Why commentators who race—like Dani Moreno—can translate chaos into context. And why Alicia’s skeptical about the Olympics reshaping trail into a TV-friendly shadow of itself, much like skimo’s shift. Through it all, her message is grounded and energizing: protect the mountain identity, invest in women’s race formats, tell better stories, and give athletes the room to come back strong.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Welcome back to this Deep Stuff Podcast.
I'm your host, James Lorello.
And today I'm so excited towelcome Alicia Vargo to the
show.
Alicia is an absolute legend inher sport, has been around the
sport for the better part of thelast decade, and was kind enough
to come on for a conversation.
We talked about it all.
We talked aboutprofessionalization in the
sport.
We got deep into her 2014, 15,16 timeframe on the Nike

(00:24):
professional team and the one oflike, I guess, the original Nike
Trail team.
We also talked about joiningHoka in 2017 as a professional
athlete and just kind of how farthe professional scene has kind
of come over the better part ofthe last decade and where she's
excited to see things progressand go and kind of the direction
she sees the sport going.
We also talked a lot about womenin the sport and we kind of got

(00:46):
into Golden Trail series andkind of you know potential for
separation of races between themen's and women's races, why
there's pros and cons to kind ofeach.
We also talked about her 2025season, where Alicia has had an
amazing season, just literally acouple days removed from her
podium finish at the Moab TrailHalf Marathon, which was the US
ATF champs.

(01:07):
She also got on the podium ofthe Pike's Peak Ascent this
year, which is a super iconicrace, and raced the Golden Trail
series, uh including series inall and the Broken Arrow 23K,
where she had just been comingoff an injury and was able to
compete at a high level in boththe ascent and the 23K, which is
kind of crazy.
Um we talked about coming backfrom injury.

(01:27):
Um Alicia had um suffered from apretty crazy injury in 2024 that
had major setbacks, and she wasable to uh kind of fight her way
back, which I think is a verycompelling aspect of her story
is fighting her way back fromturmoil and tragedy.
Um definitely some things thatwe get into in the pod.
And um, yeah, she tells anamazing story and one of

(01:48):
inspiration and grit anddetermination.
And yeah, definitely one of themost special humans I think I've
I've had on the podcast.
So I hope you guys enjoy thisone.
I know I did.
Without further ado, AliciaVargo.

(02:59):
Ladies and gentlemen, sweetAlicia Vargo, welcome to the
Steep Stuff Podcast.
How's it going?

SPEAKER_00 (03:09):
Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02 (03:11):
Yeah, thanks for coming on.
I'm so excited to uh to finallywelcome you to the pod.
I feel like you're one of thosenames that have been in the
sport for a really long time andjust like steeped in lore.
Um it's funny.
I listened to like set Ilistened to like seven podcasts
with you on it, like before thisuh just to get ready for this
episode.
And I was like, man, how do Ikeep this a little bit different

(03:32):
and tell different stories?
The good news is you just gotback from Moab where you got a
podium finish at the Moab HalfMarathon.
So maybe we can we could startwith that a little bit and talk
about your experience this pastweekend at your race.

SPEAKER_00 (03:44):
Moab was great.
That's the second time that I'vedone the US uh trail half
marathon championships.
And I feel like living in themountains, it's like always this
nice like last warm hurrahbefore winter settles in here.
So yeah, it was really fun.
The course is really funky too.

(04:05):
Um have you been out therebefore?

SPEAKER_02 (04:10):
I have not.
I was actually gonna ask youabout this because like the only
photos I've seen were on road,but I've heard there's a lot of
slick rock in it, too.

SPEAKER_00 (04:16):
Yeah, there's a lot of slick rock, and then there's
some road section that like isalso kind of, I think, meant for
like, you know, really extreme,like off-roading.
And so it it also makes for kindof in, I don't know, it's kind
of a playful course, I guess,where you're just sometimes
you're laughing, you're like, ohmy gosh, like when I have like
nightmares before races, thatlike the race turns into like an

(04:39):
obstacle course or something.
If I don't know if I'm the onlyone that has those kind of
dreams, but that's like what thecourse is like at times, where
you're just like, okay, like nowI'm scooting on my butt, and now
I'm like taking this like huge,like one-legged, you know, drop
off.
Um, and then there's like reallysandy sections where you're like
feels like you're running at thebeach, and yeah, it's just kind

(05:02):
of like all over the place, butI like it.
It's it's it's cool.
I don't think there's anythingthat I could compare it to.

SPEAKER_02 (05:08):
I was gonna say, as in asking as like a coach, do
you I mean, like obviously doyou put this as like an A race
in your training block?
The reason I ask is becauselike, do you do anything
specific in Breckenridge tryingto get ready for a race like
this, or it's just fitnessbasically?

SPEAKER_00 (05:23):
No, I it's always like a bonus race.
Like the the two times I've doneit, it's been like, all right,
Moab's next weekend, like mylegs are still, you know,
cooperating, and we still havelike dry trails here, so like
let's just go go for it.
But yeah, I think it's just likeyou just need good fitness, you
know.
Like, I don't think there'sanything you would do to like

(05:44):
prepare for that kind of coursebecause it it's like a little
bit of everything.
Like you mentioned, there issome road, there's slick rock,
there's like see steep, um, likesome steep, kind of like punchy,
um like like slick rock, likestep-up sections.
And yeah, it's it's all over theplace.
So I think you just need to befit and like or have hope you

(06:06):
have leftover fitness from likethe summer and fall of racing
and just kind of go for it.

SPEAKER_02 (06:11):
Yeah.
How was the field this year?
Was it pretty competitivecompared to previous year?
Like the previous year you haddone it, or it was, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (06:18):
In my opinion, it it felt like it was.
I mean, I I was racing, I waslike back and forth between
third and fourth with a gal allthe way to the finish line.
Like we finished like a fewseconds apart.
So to me, it felt like reallycompetitive because I I had
somebody like breathing down myneck the entire way.
Um, and I think it's yeah, it iskind of an odd time of year

(06:40):
where some people are just liketired and ready to be, you know,
done with their season andwrapping things up.
And then I feel like you you'realways gonna get a few people
that still have like a littlebit left in the tank.
So you can't show up expectingthat it's gonna be a walk in the
park, at least is how I view it.

SPEAKER_01 (06:57):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (06:58):
Yeah.
No, and it's true, it's a weirdtime of the year where folks,
especially on the short trailscene, like people are usually
doing one of three things eithergetting ready for like a
marathon or half marathon block,or they're trying to extend
their trail season and dosomething like this, or folks
are stepping up and doing thingslike JFK, right?
Because like that's a what afive or six hour race for the

(07:20):
for the leaders.
So there's like, I don't know, Ifeel like there's some options
for this time of year, but it isa weird time of year for things.
Or you could be like me and justjust do nothing, just do a bunch
of bass.
So there's options.
Um so you had said, I knowyou've been in in Breckenridge
for a for a small chunk of timenow, raising your family and and

(07:43):
just living the life.
What do you think of how do youlike Breckinridge, first of all?
Like is it is it a cool runningscene, or is it more like
transitory with uh just theamount of I don't know, people
that are non-local that kind ofcome through as far as the
tourist goes?

SPEAKER_00 (07:58):
Yeah, I love it.
Our family loves it.
We didn't really know what toexpect when we moved here,
though.
We were thinking that it wasgonna feel just that like heavy
tourist flow, you know, wherelike you kind of lose the local
community.
I I think we can all relate tolike being to resort towns and
you're just like, wow, like thisis insane.

(08:19):
But Breckenridge is prettyunique and then it does have
like a really good core localcommunity, and they have really
good housing programs here, likehousing help programs.
So it's just the the core of thelocal community is just like
hardworking kind of families,young families like us that are

(08:41):
they want to be in themountains, and so they're just
like hustling to make it happen.
So the tour stuff kind of likegoes on in the periphery, but
like the core community is isreally amazing, and you don't
really feel it like unless yougo to the grocery store or you
go to ride the lifts like on apowder day.
Um, like all the localcommunities are kind of tucked

(09:01):
away from that craziness, andthe running is insane, it's so
nice.
The the trails are so varied andso beautiful.
Um, it's like I feel like it'sone of the best kept secrets in
at least in like the Coloradomountain area, that it's really
sweet.
There's you can run like smoothsingle track, you know, you can

(09:22):
obviously like get up into themountains, you can have like
everything in between.
So but it's high, and I thinkthat that's like the X factor is
like it's high enough that it'sit's pretty uncomfortable if
you're not used to that, similarto like Leadville.
So yeah, but we love it, it'samazing.

(09:42):
We we totally lucked out onmoving here because we left
Flagstaff to move toBreckenridge, and so it wasn't
like we were leaving likeMidwest suburbia or something,
like we were coming from like areally amazing, you know,
running town, like mountainarea.
Um and we're like, we can alwaysgo back if we don't like it, but
we we really love it here, soyeah.

SPEAKER_02 (10:05):
See, I I love that.
I like that there's towns thatstill because I've had you know
athletes that from othermountain towns like Tell Your
Ride and and other parts ofColorado on the podcast, and the
thing that never comes up islike affordability, just because
you read so I mean I'm I'm inColorado Springs, right?
And I feel like that's one ofthe last few affordable places
in the entire state given likethe circumstances.
So that's cool that they havelike housing, like affordable

(10:27):
housing options for folks tostill kind of move there and
live that mountain life.
Yeah.
Um, and you don't have to be,you know, Jeff Bezos to be able
to do it.

SPEAKER_00 (10:36):
Yeah, yeah, the the town has made like a really huge
push to open up housing and putit in the hands of locals.
So there's like severaldifferent programs.
Pretty much everybody we know isin some sort of affordable
housing.

SPEAKER_02 (10:52):
That's cool.
How's it like I've never I'vealways wanted to go run on the
ski, like at the ski resort,like in in summer.
I just always have like adifferent option or something
like that.
And I just never wind up makingover there because like you got
the 10 mile traverse, like youhave so much stuff in that
little area.
Like, do they let you on thatski resort to go run in the
summer?
Like, is it is it oh, is so ityou can do.

SPEAKER_00 (11:13):
Yeah, yeah, no, there's actually like a pretty
good trail network on the skiresort.
I'd say, like, if I were toprioritize it, like if you were
gonna come up here for theweekend and go for some big
runs, that'd be like one of thelast places I tell you to go.
The trails are really nice, butlike there's much better
options, like kind of like allaround, kind of sandwiching the

(11:36):
ski resort.
Um, like you mentioned the 10mile range.
There's some like really cooltrails, like between the 10 mile
range and the mosquito range,and then the gore range, I
think, is like where it's at.
It's slept on yeah, it's reallybeautiful up there, just so
quiet, too.
Like barely anybody goes upthere.
So come up with yeah, technical.

SPEAKER_02 (11:59):
Yeah, in the summer, in the summer, I'm gonna have to
make it up there.
It's funny.
I've had some I had some friendseven in, I don't know, we just
had some such had such a weirdseason this year where things
have run so late.
And I had friends in likeOctober going up and doing like,
I don't know, they'll run uplike past Mount Victoria, like
even like over Peak One and kindof drop down.
And I was like, man, like theremust not be a lot of snow up
there.
This is uh good opportunity toget into the high country.

(12:21):
It's a weird, yeah.
We've an unusual ski or uhunusual snow season this year.

SPEAKER_00 (12:25):
Yeah, it I mean everybody's like getting antsy,
but it's like winter will hit uphere, you know.
It's caught it's coming.
So I'm just like I'll just enjoythe dirt while I can.

SPEAKER_02 (12:36):
Yeah, yeah.
What's what do you kind oftransition into skis uh usually
in the off season?

SPEAKER_00 (12:42):
Yeah, like schemo type skiing.
And then I just started skateskiing last year, which I I
love.
I'm I'm so sad that I've missedout on it the you know previous
years of my life because it'slike a really wonderful way to
experience like differentexperiences snow in different
ways, but like also yourfitness.

(13:03):
I feel like if you can do bothof those things in the winter
and mix in some running, uh youcould you could stay really
strong.
And the trails are also likethere's a lot of runnable trails
up here in the winter, so youdon't mind like bundling up,
it's pretty sweet.

SPEAKER_02 (13:20):
Yeah, the cold.
I have a friend that lives inSilver Thorn, and I'm just like,
dude, I don't know how you dothat.
It's cold on another level.
Uh I'm I'm so partial to thesprings because it stays, I
don't know, like so warm downhere.
It's so warm.
Um yeah.
Have you ever tried rollerskiing?
I just got into this like lastyear.
And while Colorado Springs isnot the ideal place for roller

(13:41):
skiing because you have a higherprobability of getting hit by a
car, um, it is awesome forfitness.
I was kind of like reallyimpressed with roller skiing.

SPEAKER_00 (13:48):
Yeah, you know, I I talked a big game this spring
that I was gonna like roller skiin the summer.
And then when it came down toit, I was like pretty afraid to
get hurt because I'm still newto skate skiing, and so I I
definitely like take falls onsnow and it's soft, but then

(14:10):
like the thought of like fallingon pavement in that same manner,
I was like, oh, and I'm comingoff some like pretty complex
injuries, and so I was like, Idon't know, I don't I'm too
chicken, I don't think I'm goingto, so maybe next year y'all
have to check back in with me.

SPEAKER_02 (14:24):
I don't blame yeah, I don't blame you.
It's it's honestly, I think it'sharder than skate skiing.
Like, I think it's and maybepeople will disagree with me.
I'm not a big skate skierbecause we just don't have a
really like solid snowpack here.
Having skate skied and havingroller ski, I think roller
skiing is like at least uh yeah,a degree harder.
Um, let's talk about that.
Uh as far as like injuries go.

(14:44):
You you came back, you had anamazing 2023 season, and then it
seemed like took a break in2024, maybe fighting through
some injury, and then came backand just had a like an extremely
impressive 2025 season, gettingto race a bunch of races.
Um, what what do you think asfar as your overall season?
Like, how would you grade it?
How excited uh were you to beback and kind of on the scene

(15:05):
this year?

SPEAKER_00 (15:06):
Um, I I would say like grateful kind of summarizes
it all.
I mean, I I think most runnersgo through periods of time of
injury um where it's like hardto imagine yourself running
again and and doing it at youknow a level where you feel like
you're doing your fitnessjustice.
And so yeah, I just didn't thinkI was gonna ever be able to have

(15:30):
the chance to be a runner again,which was definitely kind of
brutal after getting sometraction in 2023.
Um 2023 was like the first yearafter I think I had like a
six-year break for to have fourfour little kids.
And so I was like so excited toget back into it and just kind

(15:54):
of like really um working forevery bit of progress, and then
like yeah, and last summer ofthe 24, it just like all fell
apart.
And so yeah, I I feel verygrateful that I got another
chance this summer, and and Ididn't know at the beginning of
the summer, like, oh, I'm gonnarace this year.

(16:15):
It was like, hey, I I'm gonnajump in this race and then like
see if my body holds up.
And then I I never had like along-term plan with it.
I was just kind of like takingthings as they came.
And so it definitely ended up ona much more positive trajectory
than I expected.
So now I'm like, oh no, I like Iwant there to be more racing

(16:35):
season left, but that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 (16:38):
That's amazing.
Well, I'm so happy that you'reable to get through it, uh
healthy, no issues or anythinglike that.
If you don't mind me asking,what did you deal with in 2024
injury-wise?
That kind of set you back.

SPEAKER_00 (16:48):
I so I um was out for a run in June of uh 24, and
I was I was mostly planning ondoing like the Golden Trail
series races.
So I was getting ready to leavefor Mont Blanc in a couple
weeks, and um I got attacked bya dog really badly um and broke

(17:12):
my back and my teleoplateau anda bunch of like soft tissue
tearing, meniscus injury, um,transverse process.
So yeah, it was like it was bad.
But you know, I think a lot oftimes, like you're like, okay,

(17:33):
like I'm just gonna the bonesare gonna heal and then I'll be
I'll be fine, I'll be back atit.
But just that the injuries werelike in different areas of my
body, and like they kind ofbecame more complex as time went
on.
Um, so yeah, last year was justlike just kind of ridiculous
trying to figure out like whichdoctor to see, what plan to
follow, one area of the bodymaking another area worse and

(17:57):
kind of playing back and forthwith one another.
So yeah, it was crazy.
I mean, I think I love dogs,like I I love, love, love dogs.
This was just like such anextreme situation that yeah, I I
still am like, I can't believethat actually happened.

SPEAKER_02 (18:17):
Holy crap.
Did you um I mean what was thethe recovery process like?
Like how many months did thistake before you were back to
like running?
I just find it reallyinteresting because this is a
horrible accident, horribleinjuries, and then 2025 you're
back again competing against thebest in the sport on the short
trail scene, which is hypercompetitive.

(18:38):
How long did it take to get foryou to you know really start
running again?
And were you doubtful that youknow you would ever be back to
the level that you had been?

SPEAKER_00 (18:46):
Oh, yeah, for sure.
Yes, I was very doubtful.
Um, so it happened in June, andI didn't start running again
until April.
So it was like a good 10 and ahalf, 11 months.
Um, I think what helped is thatthe nature of the injuries did
allow me to ski.

(19:07):
And so like that's why I startedskate skiing and like I was
still able to like keep somefitness, but um the injury that
was in my knee, I couldn'treally straighten my knee and I
couldn't stand on it withoutpain.
Um, and so it was crazy.
I'd like could go ski for twohours, but then if I step out of
my ski boots, my knee, Icouldn't put weight on it.

(19:29):
So I just like stand on my leftleg and I was on crutches for
quite a while and then wassupposed to get surgery.
And yeah, it was just likereally complicated.
And the the knee fracture wasn'tfound initially, um, just the
back fractures were, and thatbecame like the whole focus of
the recovery.
And I kept complaining, man, butmy knee really hurts.

(19:50):
My knee really hurts.
And so I found out three monthslater that it was also fractured
in the incident.
Um, so that definitely likeelongated the recovery process.
The fact that like I had thisbroken bone that now had like
you know, edema and swellingjust from me like bopping around
on it, trying to get back to,you know, normalcy because my

(20:14):
doctors were like, all right,like you're good to go.
But there were like unknowninjuries, I guess, that just
kind of kept stalling out theprocess.
So yeah, it just kind of becamelike a tangled web of chasing
around like medical answers,which I know a lot of people go
through.
You know, it's you rarely go toa doctor that is like treating

(20:35):
you head to toe, you know.
If you just have like anAchilles injury, that's one
thing.
But like if you have kind of acomplicated um range of issues,
it's like hard to find somebodythat's like, okay, here's a game
plan.
So yeah, it took me a long timeto figure out what that was.
Um, so yeah, long period of timeand no running.
And then I started back like atiny bit in April, and we we

(21:00):
actually had a trip planned outto Broken Arrow in June, and I
had no business racing, likebecause I had barely been
running.
But then we got there and I waslike, oh, like I could, I can at
least run uphill.
And so I did the vertical, andit was like pretty miserable as
you would expect if you haven'tbeen running.

(21:20):
And then, but I had um, I alsohad a bib that I had gotten it,
you know, whenever theregistration opens, like that
previous winter for the 23k.
And so I was like, I don't know,we're here, and so I ran the
23K, which also was verymiserable feeling, but it like
gave me a lot of hope because Iwas like, well, my body didn't

(21:41):
break down, so maybe I can keeprunning through the summer, and
so that just kind of like fedforward into the next thing and
then the next thing.

SPEAKER_02 (21:51):
Wow.
I mean, it's so crazy to hearthat you didn't start running
again until April and still hadthe season that you had.
That is bananas.
I mean, I know you can get superfit on skis, but you must just
have like a crazy base, likejust from all the years of
running, that like it's it youkind of like I don't know, just
didn't lose much, which isreally interesting.

SPEAKER_00 (22:10):
Maybe, yeah.
I I definitely think the skiingsaved me a bit there.
But the the tricky thing withrunning is just the pounding,
right?
And like yeah, so like you startback to running after a long
time off, and it if you've hadan injury, it's like all the
other areas of your body have toget used to that pounding too.

(22:31):
So I feel like it's very commonthat you just are have all these
little fires that you have tokeep putting out, and so that
was definitely the case for me.
Like the more I tried to run, itwas just like one thing after
another.
But I you know, I don't know ifI've ever like worked as hard as
I have this summer to to fightto get that recovery in

(22:53):
progress.
Like, I I think I felt like alot of like fire and like
feistiness that it was liketaken away from me from
something as silly as a dog.
And I was like, no, I like Iwant to reclaim this, like I
don't want to be like broken andyou know never feel that you
know sensation of like being outon a beautiful trail and just

(23:16):
like moving freely and like atthe speed that you're used to.
And I I just I really wantedthat back, and so I I definitely
like fought for it.

unknown (23:26):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (23:26):
Well, it's super common too.
I mean, to go through, you know,tumultuous injury and then
wanting, especially for how longyou've been in the sport and as
many things of you that you'veaccomplished and done, it's kind
of easy to just I don't want tosay give up, but it's kind of
easy to just be like, Well, Idid this and you know, it's a
really hard road back, but it'sit speaks to the testament of
who you who you are as a humanto kind of fight through and and

(23:48):
come back.
And you know, I I said, youknow, just a crazy season,
second at Kodiak, and it seemedlike it's really cool because
yeah, Broken Arrow, you were top20 and but really top 15 in
both, and then had a great raceat series and all, and then
Kodiak, Pikes, and Moab, youknow, you're on the podium of
all three.
So it's kind of cool to see theprogression throughout the
season of you just gettingbetter and better and better in

(24:09):
the body, kind of responding toYeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 (24:12):
Yeah, I appreciate that.
It was um yeah, definitely Ifelt like I was asking more out
of my body than it was likeready to give me every time I
stepped on a starting line.
But then by the end, I was like,no, I'm actually like I can I
can handle, you know, the PikesPeak Ascent or Kodiak.

(24:33):
Um, it wasn't like as much of areach.
And so that felt fun becausethen you're like, okay, now I
just get to go race.
Like just think about racing andnot like is something like zears
and all.
Uh you know, I really didn'tknow if if something, if I was
just gonna be like in likeextreme pain in the middle of
it.
Like I had something like myknee and my back were bothering

(24:55):
me, and I and it's apoint-to-point race.
And I was like, I have to get tothe finish, like there's no
other way, like you have to getto the finish line.
So it was like kind ofstressful, but then it was,
yeah, it was nice to likefinally line up to something
where I'm like, no, I'm likesolid enough, I can get to the
finish line, and I actuallythink I can like try to compete
out there and um like have somefun racing people, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (25:18):
Let's talk about series and all just because
that's such an iconic race.
I went back in the results inprevious years because I you've
been in the sport for so longthat it was like I had to look
deep into the thing.
That was your was that yourfirst time racing series and
all?

SPEAKER_00 (25:31):
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (25:31):
Okay, because I knew you'd done Zagama before, but I
wasn't showing Series and All.

SPEAKER_00 (25:34):
Yeah, so I that was my first series and all.
I was supposed to run it theyear before, like after it was
gonna be Mont Blanc, and then wewe went out to Zagama, we got
super sick, unfortunately, butwe're able to experience Zagama,
and then yeah, it was gonna doZeros and All in Mont Blanc.
But yeah, so this year ended upbeing my first year.
The race is pretty wild.

(25:55):
Like, I understand why it haskind of like the mythical, I
don't know, like I feel likeI've heard all these tall tales
about it, and I'm like, how hardcan it be?
Like it's only 18, 19 miles, butit's definitely a unique
challenge and it's a absolutelybeautiful, definitely a bucket
list race.

SPEAKER_02 (26:16):
Yeah.
What was your takeaway?
So it lived up.
I mean, it it's kind of funnybecause like with these big
mythical races, we all build upin our minds like what we see on
Instagram or social media orYouTube, and then you get there
and it's it's kind of different.
Like, did it did it live up tothe expectation in your head or
did it like exceed it?

SPEAKER_00 (26:33):
Oh, it definitely exceeded it.
Yeah, it was spectacular.
I mean, the course once you getpast that, you know, kind of
like iconic, um, steep uphill,and then hit the flat section
that isn't actually flat, it'slike still continues to to kind
of grind your way up.
I mean, that I to me it was likethis like balcony trail, and it

(26:54):
it was it was like one of youknow top few trails in my
lifetime that I've everexperienced.
It was so beautiful, but it islike kind of a narrow trail and
you're racing, so it'd be niceto go back and take it in
slowly.
But yeah, the race is wild, andit I think one thing that's
different over there versus likeracing here as a female is when

(27:20):
I race here, I I don't know, Ithink people are just like in in
general, like pretty courteous.
There we have like our own trailetiquette of like what you do
and you don't do in a crowdedsituation.
We don't often have reallycrowded trail races here because
of you know entries just beinglower and permitting, you know,

(27:42):
not allowing that.
But over there, it's like it wasso chaotic.
It I mean, just the pushing, theshoving, like having so many men
like being pushy and shovyaround you when you're like
still trying to race the women'sfield.
Um it it was kind of crazy.
Like I it definitely took meaback.

(28:03):
And I'm like, man, I need tolike sharpen my elbows if I ever
do that race again and kind ofhold my ground because I feel
like I yeah, I just got likethat was like a little bit
dizzying.
Um not being used to like Idon't know, it yeah, it was just
it was a very chaotic start, andyou're then narrowed down into
like these super steep uphillsections where you can't move

(28:26):
very much.
Um, and I think like anotherthing that if I were to go back,
I would prepare better for isit's it's hot.
It's hot and it's humid.
And coming from Breckenridge,like it's it's a very intense,
almost like suffocating feeling.

(28:46):
Uh, and I definitely was notprepared for that.
I didn't know I was gonnaactually do the race, so it was
wasn't like I was beingneglectful, but in if if I were
able to go back and prepare forit, um yeah, I would I would be
ready for that.
I got like some pretty pretty uhbad feeling heat exhaustion
after that.
But it's spectacular.
I'm sure you should definitelytry to run it sometime in the

(29:08):
future.

SPEAKER_02 (29:09):
That's my bucket list race.
I'm gonna have to, I don't know,we'll see.
I gotta see if I can get in, getstuff figured out for next year
or the year after.

SPEAKER_00 (29:16):
But before it's all said and done, I definitely
wanna the springs would be likegreat to prepare for that
course, I feel like.

SPEAKER_02 (29:23):
You think so?
I you know, it's funny, like I'msuch a I don't know, it's funny,
and you give your give yourhusband some props because I I
still see segments that I'mlike, damn, how did he run so
fast on this?
I was like, did it get moretechnical over time?
So you gotta give him gotta givehim some some props for that.
But there's um like I don'tknow, I always complain about
the spring sometimes.
I'm like, we don't have enoughlike like 2,000 to like three or

(29:48):
four thousand foot climbs.
Like I yes, we have Pike's Peakand Bar Trail, and it's like,
but you've run that youobviously just raised this.
It like it peters out and it'snot as steep.
Whereas like, and yes, we havethe incline, so I don't know.
Maybe I just get a littlespoiled sometimes, but sometimes
I wish we had like a ski resortwhere I can get those like 17 to
20% like created roads becausethat is something that like I've

(30:10):
struggled in on races.
And I'm like, yeah, we have like17 to 20% climbs, but at least
usually the gaps aren't as fastbecause their footing isn't as
good and they're more rocky.
I'm like very into the weedweeds on this stuff.
So we need to do that.

SPEAKER_00 (30:23):
Yeah, no, I I I can see that for sure.
I feel like you need to chatwith Zach Miller.
I feel like he has all thosetrails dialed.
You could be like, give me 17 to20% grade, like not too rocky,
and he he would tell you exactlywhere to go.

SPEAKER_02 (30:37):
Uh he's he's got the stuff.
Yeah, Long's Ranch Road andstuff like that.
But yeah, we need, I don't know,we need like an impromptu ski
resort that someone needs toopen up here.

SPEAKER_01 (30:46):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (30:47):
Just for the summer running.
Um one of the things I was gonnaask you, and um what do you
think about women's like itbeing separate races, like in
the sense of like a separate dayfor like a women's series and
all versus a men's?
Just because I've heard thatconversation get brought up a
lot for women's races whenespecially um you know you're

(31:09):
trying to get through the fieldand there's dudes like with
elbows pushing you guys out ofthe way, it's just kind of
chaotic.
What do you think about havingthem as separate days for the
men's and women's races?

SPEAKER_00 (31:19):
Yeah, I've I've kind of flipped flop back and forth
on this because I I thinkthere's like a good argument in
both directions because what youdon't want is like a separate
start in a small field wherelike women are strung out and
it's like you're just kind of inlike no woman's land the whole

(31:40):
time.
That doesn't feel good.
It also doesn't feel good whenyou start 15 to 20 minutes early
and the elite men's field isjust blowing past you, you know,
like that even though you knowlike I'm a woman and they're a
man and we're in a differentrace right now, like it just
doesn't feel good to be past ahigh rate of speed like that.

(32:03):
Um I think that like what GoldenTrails series has done with the
separate starts for like thechampionship races, I think
that's great because thespotlight is on the women and
then the spotlight is on themen.
You know who you're racing, youdon't you're not trying to like,
oh, is that like a ponytail oris that like a guy with with a
ponytail?

(32:23):
You know, like you you just knowwho's in your race.
Um, but for like a race likezeroes and all or something like
that, I I don't know how likelogistically how it would even
be possible to stage that as atwo-day race.
And there were so few womencompared to men in that race,
that like would you have thesame crowds out there, you know?

(32:47):
Like, would you get that sameatmosphere or like Zagama?
Um I I don't know, but I I thinkthat like women's trail of
mountain running is getting somuch deeper than it used to be.
And so I think it's somethingthat needs to be considered.
I just don't know if I have theanswer.
Like, because yeah, like youwant those you want those iconic

(33:12):
races to like keep that sameexcitement and buzz, like Mont
Blanc Marathon, right?
Like, what what does Mont Blancmarathon feel like if you spread
it out into a two-day race?
Maybe not the same.

SPEAKER_02 (33:24):
Well, it's we right.
I mean, it see in like Headlandsa couple years ago, I thought
did a great job of of actuallybreaking it out into the two-day
race.
Yeah, but there it that's umfirst off, like that's America,
and two, like there's not reallya fan base there cheering people
on.
Whereas I feel like in a lot ofthese iconic European races,
like series in all, MontblogMarathon, Zagama, I feel like

(33:46):
what makes those races just sospecial is having the fan base
out there cheering you guys on,giving you guys the energy,
right?

SPEAKER_00 (33:53):
Yeah, totally.
And it's it and it I I like thatit feels wild and chaotic
sometimes.
Like I I don't like, yeah, Ithink it adds to just like the
adrenaline and thecompetitiveness, but it's almost
like you need to like sign offon like a trail etiquette

(34:14):
waiver.
You know, like I don't I think Ithink that sometimes just
different people have different,yeah.
Like I don't think that if westaged those same races here in
the US and had the same numbers,that we would have necessarily
the same problems.
I don't know why.
I don't know why it's different.
But like when I ran Zagama twoyears ago, um we came off, it

(34:37):
was, you know, it's like the theclassic European mountain race
start where you start in town,you do like a frantic fast loop,
and then you start climbing up asingle track trail.
And probably like 10 secondsinto the race, I got shoved in
the back and and I I fellforward and I caught myself, but
all my gels that were in my packjust went onto the pavement and

(35:01):
just got trampled.
And I was like, oh no.
I was like, what do what do Ido?
Like, I don't that's like all mynutrition for the race.
Like that's horrible, that'scrazy.
But like why why are peoplebeing like shoved and pushed
like that?
I don't know, it's it's it'svery different.

SPEAKER_02 (35:21):
Like, I don't know that there's necessarily a
solution, but it's like, comeon, like, do we really need to
be well yeah, and in the U well,I feel like in the US, like I
would hope race directors havealso the common sense to be
like, all right, you seeanything like that, like you're
you're pulled.
Yeah, you can't keep shovingpeople.
Like, what are what are wedoing?
What are we doing here?

(35:42):
Like it's not that's not thereason we're doing this, yeah.
Um, and don't get me wrong, likewe're all competitive people,
like everybody wants to do well,but like when you're shoving
people, like that's yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (35:51):
I think we're all gonna be running like 10-minute
pace here in 10 minutes, youknow?

SPEAKER_02 (35:56):
So it's like right, right.
It's crazy.
Can you tell the story?
I heard this on a couplepodcasts, and like I just was
kind of blown away.
You got super sick in Zagama andit like derailed some stuff for
you too, right?
Like, can you can you talk aboutlike getting like it was like
pretty bad, right?

SPEAKER_00 (36:12):
Yeah.
Um, so the first time I went toZagama, I got sick soon after we
arrived and then was sick forthe race.
And it was like I'm sure mostpeople have had a sickness
before where you're like, youknow, you're like this is not
good.
Like you can, it's just likeit's deep in you.

(36:34):
And I was running the race, andI'm like, I I I dropped out, and
it was such a horrible race todrop out in.
I mean, it's just it's thegamma, right?
But I like I knew deep down, I'mlike, something's not right with
me.
Like, and I was like prettyrecently, I I just had my
daughter, I don't know, maybeeight months before that.

(36:57):
So I was like, well, maybe thesickness is just hitting me
harder because I'm, you know,postpartum and tired and
international travel.
And I just I couldn't shake itfor several months.
Um and started having somecardiac issues that what felt
like cardiac issues, and justlike a weird set of symptoms.

(37:20):
And I kept going back to thedoctor, and my doctor's like,
hey, like you're a tired mom,like this this will pass.
And I'm like, no, you don'tunderstand, like, something's
wrong with me.
So long story short, I ended uphaving an infectious disease um
called brucellosis that is likemuch more common in like the

(37:42):
Mediterranean region, likedifferent areas of like I think
like Northeast Africa, theBasque region.
Um, it's usually from likeunpasteurized like goat and cow
products.
Um but it is pretty scarybecause it can damage your heart
valves.

(38:02):
Like that's kind of the like thepoint of like the progression
that you definitely don't wantto find yourself in.
And so yeah, you you usuallyhave to do like a a similar
antibiotic protocol fortuberculosis where you do um
like IV antibiotics in thehospital or long-term

(38:24):
antibiotics.
And yeah, it was it was just itwas it was a weird one, you
know.
Like you when you go to adifferent country, you want to
be respectful and like eat thefood that's served and like buy
what's ever in the market orlike just kind of be easygoing.
But I had no idea that somethinglike that could be lurking uh in

(38:45):
the Basque region for me.
So yeah, it took a long time torecover from it.
Yeah, it was rough.

SPEAKER_02 (38:51):
Yeah, that's great.
Well, and the thing is too, islike Basque Region, for people
who don't know, has some of thebest cuisine in the world.
Like it's like some of the bestrestaurants, some of the best,
like just food in general.
So that's crazy to hear that.

SPEAKER_01 (39:01):
Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_02 (39:02):
I heard it on another podcast when I was doing
research for this, and I waslike, oh, I gotta get I gotta
hear more on this.
This is this is a crazy thing.
And especially because there's alot of athletes that listen to
this that do travelinternationally for races.
And I'm always bringing up thewell, you know, it's it's really
hard.
It's a lot harder than peoplethink to go race internationally
just because, you know, dietaryissues or dietary changes,
sleep, all these different likefactors that go into play before

(39:24):
a race.
And uh yeah, unfortunately, likeyou were so negatively impacted.

SPEAKER_00 (39:28):
Yeah, and it's there, I think there's like
around 40 cases in the US a yeartops, and it's usually like
hunters that are like out in thefield like skinning an animal or
something like that.
Like it's it's so rare that likethe State Health Department
immediately got involved, likethey immediately like took

(39:51):
control of like my my treatmentand making sure that yeah, it
wasn't just somebody likepopping around with brucellosis
in their mind.

SPEAKER_02 (40:00):
That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 (40:01):
Yeah, crazy.

SPEAKER_02 (40:04):
Yeah, survivor, survivor for sure.
I um all right, so I want toshift gears a little bit.
I want to ask you this is a thisis a deep cut question.
In 2017, in that era, in myresearch, I found that you were,
and I I mean I'd also seen inpictures that you used to run
for Hoka back in the day.
Um, so you went through thisphase of professional athlete in
your life.
Like you could still obviouslyyou compete at the highest

(40:26):
level, still you still callyourself a professional athlete.
I just want to know, like, whatwas it like being a pro back in
the day?
In like I say back in the day,even though it really wasn't
that long ago, it was less thana decade ago, but 2017, the
sport has changed so much sincethen.
Like, what was that like for youback then being a pro in the
sport and like that era?

SPEAKER_00 (40:47):
Yeah, well, so Hoka was actually my fourth like
professional contract as arunner.
So when I was out of college, II had a contract and then um
with Reebok and then Sokany, andthen took like a long break from
running.

(41:07):
And then um my first contract asa trail runner was with Nike and
like kind of that OG group ofNike.
That's where I met Chris, um, myhusband, and yeah, it was like
Zach and Tim Tolovson, SallyMcRae, like um, yeah, a great
group of us.
And then my husband and Ichanged over to to Hoka.

(41:28):
And I would say at that point intime, like professional trail
running contracts were like muchmore limited than they are now.
Like there weren't really manypeople like actually making a
living, but the contracts werealso like I'm guessing a lot
looser than they are now.

(41:50):
So um, yeah, it was kind ofnice.
I feel like you there weren'ttoo many obligations.
Um, but definitely having babieswas was not a good mix.
And so that's like you know, whyI stopped running for Hokas.
We were getting ready to buildour family.
But yeah, it was a little bitmore like maybe like the Wild

(42:11):
West of like early professionalrunning, where you were kind of
lucky if a company like threwyou some support, but there also
weren't like much expectationsof like what that should look
like.
You know, UTMB wasn't what it isnow, so it wasn't like, hey,
like we need you to show up inShamini at the end of August and
be in one of these races, likeand there just weren't a ton of

(42:34):
a ton of like championship styleraces, except for like
skyrunning races and thenwestern states.
So yeah, it was definitelydefinitely a very different
time.
Um and unfortunately for me,like the sub-ultra distance
races like weren't really veryglamorized, and there really
wasn't much in in the way oflike sub-ultra races in the US

(42:58):
to begin with.
Um, so I think that it likereally pushed maybe those early
athletes like into longer racesis like that's the option.
Like that's how if you want tobe like a trail runner, like you
need to do hundred milers.
Um, so yeah, I wish there wouldhave been like shorter trail
race options during that timebecause I think coming from like

(43:19):
a collegiate running background,that's like such a great
stepping stone, you know.
Like it's very different to gofrom like racing 5Ks and 10Ks to
like uh trans Vulcania whereyou're just like out there for
hours and like walking, and youknow, it's just it's a hard like

(43:41):
mental shift, I think, that tonot be in these like fast
explosive races that are likefull of adrenaline.
Uh so yeah, I I love seeing thechanges the sport's making, and
I think it's only gonna getdeeper and deeper, like in
pulling more like young talentinto you know the realm of this
sport that's like growing reallyfast, like racing a vertical K

(44:02):
or like you know, golden trailraces, skyrunning races.

SPEAKER_02 (44:07):
Yeah.
Wow.
I thank you for I appreciate youtalking about this because this
is this is the stuff I wanted toget out of you is more of the
this like pre-time period wherebecause it's interesting from
that Nike team, you Tim, Chris,like quite a few of those Nike
athletes roll over into the Hokascene in 2017.
What was it like though being onthat early Nike team?

(44:29):
Like there was all hard hitters,like rock stars, like people
that were first belt hall offamers in the sport at this
point.

SPEAKER_00 (44:36):
Yeah, it was awesome.
Um, yeah, I'm so thankful thatthat was like my entry point
into the sport, you know.
And our manager, Pat, was likekind of like gave us like free
reign of the races that wewanted to run.
Um, and you know, we didn't havelike the team structure wasn't

(44:58):
what it's like now, where peopleare like going to T team camps,
and you know, there's reallylike so much support.
Um it was just like us and Pat,you know, and it was it was cool
though, because I think we kindof naturally gravitated towards
like the same races and likecreated that team culture like
within what became like a goodgroup of friends, like people

(45:21):
that I'm still really close withand my husband's still really
close with.
Um, and it's cool to think backto like how that Nike Trail team
like impacted UTMB and likeAmericans kind of maybe being
open up to like what UTMB is andlike CCC and OCC and uh those

(45:41):
guys like making such a bigsplash there.
Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (45:46):
It's crazy.
Crazy to think like I mean, andso I mean Billy Yang has made
you know some great I mean, hisdocumentaries are just like you
know and podcasts, like so, sogood.
Um, yeah, lots of really goodstuff there.
Uh what it now, I think was ituh I guess Golden Trail What
came around in 2018.
So was there just like any andyou would kind of alluded to

(46:09):
this that it seemed like therewas just such a push on the
American scene to do ultra?
It seems like there still is.
Um are you excited now to seethere being more of an like it
seems like the subultra categoryor short trail category,
whatever people want to call it,has just grown so immensely now
with the rise of Broken Arrow,with Golden Trail, and in the
United States as well with theRut and races like that.

(46:31):
Um are you excited to kind ofsee this growing uh aspect of
the sport?
Because, like you said, it issuch an approachable sport for
or section of the sport forathletes coming in from you know
the collegiate scene.

SPEAKER_00 (46:42):
Yes, I'm I'm so excited to see this this shift
and this growth.
I think one, it's moreapproachable for just like all
runners that are like trailmountain curious.
Um, but for that development forlike the younger side of the
sport or just for people who arelike their skill set is, you

(47:03):
know, they they're they'rethey're more talented and they
have a skill set that's likebetter suited to like shorter,
faster mountain races.
Like I think it's cool that likeunder this umbrella of trail
running, we can have these likeone to two hour races that are
like so dynamic and likeathletic, I guess is what I

(47:23):
think about it as like like themountain biking, like the World
Cup mountain biking races oftrail running where it's just
yeah, it's like can getscompetitive, it's fast moving.
Like if you make a wrongdecision, like that could be
your race, you know, versus likea hundred mile race where like
things are playing out just likemore like a chess match, you

(47:45):
know, like where it's like likereally methodical.
And I I love that side of thesport too.
But like I I just yeah, I thinkof like all the athletes that
were like that are like thesimilar version of myself when I
was younger.
Like I wish I would have hadthat because it's it's just I

(48:06):
think like as you develop, it'sso exciting to like still feel
that athleticism and that likeurgency within a race, and then
to let your body adapt to likethe longer races, like when it's
more appropriate in yourdevelopment.
Like, I don't think it's healthythat we would ask young athletes
to be in the sport and just pushthem towards like 20-hour races,

(48:29):
you know.

SPEAKER_02 (48:30):
Yeah, it's weird, right?
Is it a you like is uh inEurope, there's such an emphasis
on the short trail.
Like, people love short trail inEurope and it's got such a fan
base, and like I feel likethat's part of my job and and
thing, like what I want to do iscontinue to help grow the fan
base in the US and and play arole in that.
I just don't know why we putsuch an emphasis on the longer
stuff in in the United States.

(48:52):
Like, I I don't get it.
Like, sure, we have Westernstates, and that's cool.
And like I I don't know, I justdon't know why that we put such
an emphasis when it's like sucha more approachable aspect of
the sport.
And we've got like races likePikes Peak and like historically
based races, like Pikes Peak'sbeen around a lot longer than
Western states, and yet it justdoesn't have quite that

(49:13):
admiration from a fan-basedperspective that maybe say like
Western states does.
Like, what why is that?

SPEAKER_00 (49:19):
I I mean I think it's just because we don't have
this like deep-rooted like lovefor the mountains, like as a
society, you know, like we don'thave this like mountain culture
where you know, like you go tothe Alps in the summer and the
trails are so busy.
And it it's nice that here inColorado we like have our trails

(49:41):
to ourselves, but you go thereand people are using the trails,
like young families are outthere, 70, 80-year-olds are out
there, like in the mountains.
And I think that they're thatthe the shorter races are an
extension of just like thatmountain culture of like, oh, we
have this mountain, so likewe're gonna have a race to run
to the top of it or around it,or like this, you know, great

(50:03):
circuit, or we're gonna havethis trail festival.
Like it's it's it's similar,like in schemo in Europe, you
know, where it's just like it'skind of part of a way of life,
and people grow up eitherparticipating in those sports or
having an appreciation forpeople that do that.
But here it's like that's so farremoved.
Like this way of like moving andracing in the mountains is like

(50:28):
people see running as likemarathons, you know, like road
marathons.
And and I think that we like tocategorize distances for like
acceptance, like, oh, I'm amarathoner, or you know, I I do
this distance.
And then it's like if you don'tfit into that category, then it
then it's like, well, you needto be a hundred miler, you know,

(50:49):
whereas like but why why aren'twe elevating that you're really
good at running up and downPike's Peak, you know, like
certainly the community inColorado Springs elevates that.
Like I love the just that thatcommunity that that the race has
supporting that race and thatmountain and like how much

(51:10):
people love that mountain.
I just I I think that's soincredible, but that's really
rare, you know.
There's not many places likethat.
Like certainly like Tim Tolofsonis creating that mammoth and you
know, Mike Foot up, you know, inMontana, but like runners are
like, yeah, it's like thecollegiate system, it's the

(51:31):
track, it's the road.
And I think that will change,you know.
I think that having people likeLauren Gregory in the sport
where uh kids in D1 programs arelike, oh, like this is an option
for me.
Like, I don't like runningaround in circles, or I don't
want to be a marathoner.
Like, I could maybe go do this,you know.

(51:53):
And I I think that thatexcitement is gonna like start
to stir.
And as like media continues tocover that, like someone like
yourself, like you know, reallyshining a spotlight on athletes
like that.
I think I think the excitementwill start to grow and and it'll
it'll be something that peoplecan feel like proud to be a

(52:13):
mountain athlete and not like,oh, I was too slow to make it on
the track, so I'm gonna try tomake it as a trail runner.

SPEAKER_02 (52:21):
Yeah.
Yeah, no, and that's anotherthing too, is the there there
was for the longest time, and Ithink you probably saw this more
in that in that era of that, Idon't know, 14 through 2020,
where um before like athleteslike Dan Kurtz and Lauren
Gregory and Anna Gibson kind ofcame into the sport, um, people
would think that there was thispreconceived notion that, oh, if

(52:43):
you can't make it on the track,then you you can go make it
living in the trails.
And yeah, no, I mean now you gotI mean, you saw firsthand
Christian Allen this pastweekend, like as talented as
anyone in the sport at thispoint.
So it's really interesting to meto see the sports sort of sort
of elevate, and we're gettingthese like and I hate to compare
and be like, oh, well, he's atwo-oh, whatever marathoner,

(53:05):
right?
But you're starting to see thetalent level just rise so much
in the sport with all theathletes, which is I think it's
kind of it's pretty amazing.

SPEAKER_00 (53:11):
Yeah, I agree.
And I think that runners, likekind of like having come from
that system, um the collegiatesystem is so great.
I mean, we're so lucky that wehave that here for development
in depth, but you have theselike great team atmospheres that

(53:33):
kind of like create thatexcitement around like running
circles on a track or crosscountry or road running, but
then you graduate and it's likeyou don't have that team
atmosphere, and it's it's kindof like a lonely endeavor unless
you're lucky enough to make itonto you know a really good
development team.
And so I I think that like a lotof a lot of people I know, they

(53:58):
came out of college and thenthey're just like they don't
even like running anymore, youknow, because it's so different,
it's so removed from like that,you know, all that excitement
enthusiasm around like the teamculture of that.
And so I just yeah, I think Ithink there's gonna be a lot of
young athletes that are like,oh, like this is a potential
path for me, you know, like thisis way better than doing the

(54:22):
same road race year after year,trying to like improve a few
seconds, like to go to differentcountries and like test myself
up against like this mountain orthis climb or like this route,
you know.
I I think yeah, I I feel reallypositive about where the sport's
heading.

SPEAKER_02 (54:39):
And I think it's that's what I was gonna ask you.
Yeah, yeah, that's why I wasgonna go to the next question.
Like, where where do you want itto go though?
Like, do you think this shouldbe an Olympic sport?
Do you think worlds is goodenough and we can continue to
grow?
Like, what do you want to seeout of it uh in the sport?

SPEAKER_00 (54:53):
I'm not I'm not sold on it becoming an Olympic sport
because I as much as it is likea validation I feel torn.
I as much as it is like avalidation to the sport being
like a competitive global sport,I also like fear like what it

(55:16):
would get reduced to in anOlympic format, and I think it
would be far removed from likethe really cool, iconic races
and courses that we've beentalking about, you know.
I just I just don't I guess I'ma little bit jaded because I see
what's happening to schemo and Iimagine like a similar path

(55:38):
where it's like, oh, okay, nowso and and nothing against the
athletes that are like workingreally hard to make an Olympic
team because I think that'sthat's incredible.
But I think that most people canagree that like the origins of
schemo is not racing around abunch of like flags doing a
million transitions, like inthis like course that's like a

(56:02):
the base of a ski resort,essentially.
You know, it's about like goingup and down a mountain as fast
as you can, or going up and overa mountain and then up and over
in a mountain and back.
You know, it's like it's it'svery like pure mountain sport.
And so, you know, I I worry thatthat would happen to trail and
mountain running, that it'slike, okay, instead of Mont

(56:24):
Blanc being Mont Blanc Marathonor Mont Blanc 90K being
something that's like, wow,yeah, that makes sense.
Like, what an iconic race.
It's like all of a sudden we'rejust like doing flower formats
and putting like fake rocks intothe street and barriers and yes,
yeah, I don't know.
It's like because if it is anOlympic sport, I mean that's the

(56:46):
validation that athletes arenaturally gonna want is to make
an Olympic team within theirsport, but like is it gonna take
away from like you know, theroots of what trail of mountain
running is?
I don't know.
I think we're better off not.

SPEAKER_02 (57:03):
I agree.
I and I look at it from twoways.
I think there's there's thecomponent of like, like you
said, like with schemo and evenclimbing too.
I mean, I feel like what theydid to the climbing was kind of
an insult in a lot of ways.
Yeah, I mean, schemospecifically, I felt like it was
a and even though like I havefriends on the schemo team
literally right now activelyyeah, like working their butts,
butts off to make the Olympics,it's like, man, how much better

(57:24):
would it be for like Cam Smithif there was like a vertical
option?
Totally absolutely would be somuch easier.
And it's like, why why do we noteven have a vertical option for
the I don't get that?
Um obviously I don't make thedecisions, and then the only uh
the other option too, or theother thing, caveat, is um, you
know, I don't know, like Olympicthe Olympic sport itself or

(57:46):
sports in the Olympics are stillthe way that it's classified is
it's just so hard for athletesto make money unless you're
LeBron James or somebody likethat.
Like when it comes to the TVdeals, like very much so, like
athletes are not really makinganything.
And in a sport that already haslike finite economics, where
yes, now it's easier to makemoney, but you're still not

(58:07):
making a gratuitous amount ofmoney.
You're still not able to likereally fund like like most
things.
Um, you throw the Olympics intoit, and yes, there's name,
image, and likeness, and you canmake money that way, but it's
and it will attract sponsors,but like TV rights and the
amount of money that's likewrapped up in that, it kind of
sucks.
Like, I feel like it's almostlike borderline there's

(58:29):
exploitation there, totally.

SPEAKER_00 (58:31):
I agree, yeah, I agree, and I think it's gonna
shrink down the focus with likeI mean, trail, mountain, ultra
running, like it's it's so vast.
Like, we have so many categorieswithin our sport, and I feel
like it's gonna like put thespotlight on like one very small
area within the sport, whateverformat that is that they decide

(58:54):
will fit the TV programming.
So, is that like an hour race,an hour and a half race that's
like kind of flat and fast andlike no real vertical, you know,
like it'll just and so then whatabout like the Jim Walmsleys and
the Katie Shiats out here thatare like coaching UTMB and like
I mean, they could probably dowell in any format of racing

(59:17):
that they were thrown, to behonest.
But but you know what I mean?
Like, I I feel like it wouldreally shift the focus to one
type of trail and mountainrunner, which I feel like is
kind of a shame to the sport.

SPEAKER_02 (59:31):
Well, and the thing is too, I mean, this is this is
almost almost going on adifferent like tangent, but I
view Ultra in a lot of ways as acompletely different sport.
Because after X amount ofmileage, then there's a lot of
other things at play.
And it like fitness matters, butnot to the degree, and it almost
like really transforms itself.
Whereas like a circle seriesrace, 100% like fitness is

(59:53):
probably the most importantcomponent.
Like, yes, there's a lot ofextra aspects that go, like a
few extra aspects that go intoit, but If you're not fit,
you're not gonna do well.
And whereas like you can inultras, it's a completely
different sport.
Whereas like if you have a lotof other things dialed, the
sport almost like corrects foryou being able to do well with
those, even if you lack a littlebit of fitness uh or might not

(01:00:16):
be at the highest of highest oflevels.
Like you could still perform.
Um whereas like I don't know, II think in with those two
different sports, you know, ifone becomes an Olympic sport,
one doesn't, almost the othergets left behind, and that gets
kind of weird.
So it's like it's almost like anall or nothing thing.
We would have to have like if wewant to have equal
representation, like it wouldhave to be we gotta have an

(01:00:37):
ultra component, we gotta have asub-ultra component, and we
gotta do something like that.
I don't know.
What do you think of the new 200mile races?
Like, are you are you into thatkind of thing?
Do you think that's like a athing going forward?

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:46):
You know, I have to admit, I was like a little
dismissive at first.
And I went out to the firstyear, uh, the first Coca Dona.
I had I had a group of womenthat were that all racing it.
So I was coaching them and I waslike, I don't know about this.

(01:01:09):
Like, I think you guys are gonnahate running when you're done.
You're it's like I always usethe analogy of like you can't
eat too much chocolate cake,like you can run too much and
not like it anymore.
And uh and I went out and likethe it was just different, and I
and I I loved like the communityand culture that the the race

(01:01:32):
had created around the runners,you know, like and I was like,
why why not?
Like, why not people decide thatthey want to go from this point
to this point or around LakeTahoe?
And who cares if they're notreally actually running most of
it, if they're walking most ofit?
Like, I think that's that'sreally cool that somebody wants

(01:01:54):
to take on that challenge forthemselves.
But now people are actuallyracing it, you know, like
they're actually running andpushing hard and racing it, and
I think it's it's curious, likekind of learning to unlock like
or relearn what is like possiblewithin the sport.

(01:02:16):
Like we thought, like, oh, youcan only race a hundred miles,
but now now people are doing itfor twice that distance.
And I don't know that it wouldbe my cup of tea, but like I
definitely have like an acuriosity and an appreciation
for what's being done in thatrealm of the sport.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:34):
Uh yeah, yeah.

unknown (01:02:36):
Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:36):
Yeah, no, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:38):
No, I was just gonna say if I for if I've learned
anything about the 200 mile, itis nothing to do with the 200
mile, it is everything to dowith the fact that whatever kind
of like zeitgeist slash likeaudience capture that they've
like figured out where it's likethis cult cult like following,
yeah, where people like will sitall day and just like watch it
on their live stream.
I'm like, dude, there's there'ssomething to be learned here

(01:03:01):
that we can apply to shorttrail, um, like some sort of
audience capture becausewhatever they're figuring out,
like we we gotta do the samething, and and that's how we
continue to grow our end of thesport.
Um, because yeah, whateverthey've kind of figured out
already, like with Coca-Dona, Ithink Coca-Dona is a great
example with the live stream.
It's like people live and die bythe live stream, and there's
like stars are are born.

(01:03:22):
Like, look at Rachel Entriken,who's now a household name just
from you know, just having areally amazing 2025 season, and
hopefully it pays off immenselyfor her.
But those are the types ofstories I think and and things
we need to capture for our sideof the sport that I I think
Golden Trail does a really gooduh job of, but it's more Euro
and not quite American.

(01:03:43):
It's just a little different.
We need to figure it out on theAmerican side how we can tell
those stories.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:47):
I agree, yeah, I agree.
Well, I I feel like you need tohave Jamil on the podcast at
some point in time and seebecause I feel like he's always
like 10 steps ahead of likewhatever we're seeing or the
changes that are being made.
Like you mentioned the Coca-Donalike live stream, like is
brilliant.
I can't believe that many peopleare sitting around watching

(01:04:08):
people like munch on a burritoat an aid station and then walk
out, but it's like it's prettymust see TV now.
Yeah, and I have I still havelike a good amount of friends
that are you know road racingand you know, like were you
know, racing New York lastweekend, and I I I watch it and

(01:04:30):
I'm like honestly, I'm like thisis kind it's kind of boring.
Like you have these fast,insanely fast and fit people,
but the coverage to me is likeit's just it's just the same
that it was before.
There's no context, there's nolike you don't really know much
about the athletes you'rewatching.

(01:04:51):
Um it's just kind of flat.
And then like I watch somethinglike the Kokodona live stream,
and I'm like, this is it's it'skind of silly, but it's also
really amazing.
And so uh yeah, I agree with youthat like if we could start
bringing that X factor into likethe shorter races here in the

(01:05:12):
US, it'd be really amazing.
And uh I mean Broken Arrow seemslike there's certainly I I was
like I had never been to BrokenArrow and I was like really
blown away by that raceorganization and and race
coverage and everything thatthey're doing out there, and so
I feel like other races willstart to follow suit.
It will just be the new norm,you know.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:36):
Yeah, yeah, I think it has to.
I mean, and we've had years inthe past where like for
instance, like this year we hada p we were trying to do
something with the rut, um, moreof like a like a live podcast
kind of thing, and they didn'thave a live stream this year.
And I was like, damn, what amissed opportunity.
Like they should like they uhbecause their VKs are amazing to

(01:05:56):
watch, it's so much fun.
I mean, especially in the lastfew years, people get in the top
and there's snow and people arefreezing, and it's like just a
crazy thing.
And broken arrow is great too.
That mass start at the like onthat ski hill is just pure
chaos, and it's so much fun tofollow.
Um, and this year it was greattoo.
Like Broken Arrow did a goodjob.
But I think just like even forlike the 28Ks and or the 23Ks,

(01:06:17):
28 K's, 50 K's, I think it allbenefits so well from uh, you
know, and then have also havinglike I don't know, I think we
need to do a better job with thecommentators where the
commentators generally arepretty good, but it needs to be
someone that knows the sportintimate.
Yeah, and I think we've we've weneed to work on that where it
can't just be any any personthat just like uh off the street

(01:06:41):
or any person that's just acasual, like it needs to be
someone that's either aprofessional athlete that's not
racing and happens to have areally good personality and can
convey some of these storylinesand talk about it, um, or
someone that really knows theirstuff.
So I'm hoping that that improvestoo.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:56):
Yeah, I agree.
And I I I don't know.
Did you watch any of the theKodiak live coverage by any
chance?

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:03):
I I didn't know.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:04):
Okay, yeah, well, they uh Danny Marino was one of
the the hosts on there, and Iwas like, oh my gosh, Danny is
like she's awesome.
This is perfect because sheknows all the nuances of
especially like the thesub-ultra distances, and like
she's still competing, and sothere's just so much to the

(01:07:25):
sport that she understands, andlike it was like really
incredible.
Like, I learned a lot listeningto Danny, you know, commentate
their races, and uh I I feellike yeah, adding putting more
Danny's behind the microphonewould would be great that it was
like not only like a giftedrunner and understands you know
the the the players in thesport, but also just yeah, those

(01:07:47):
like little details of like whatit's like to be out there like
battling it out.
Um yeah, it'd be really cool.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:54):
100%.
Like I I had Danny and MK.
We did um the Son of P uh livestream, and it was so much fun.
Um and it was it was atrociousbecause like the video kept
failing and we would losecoverage of this person and that
person, and we really had tolike make things up as we went,
like talking about the athletesand talking about this, that,
and the other.
And yeah, Danny, Danny and MKare absolutely incredible.

(01:08:17):
Like they're but that that'swhat we're talking about.
Like that's those are the typesof athletes that need to be
doing those things.
And yeah, I don't know.
It's gonna be interesting,especially because this year is
an off-year with worlds, andwe'll have the US Mountain
Running Championship somewhere,maybe in the Northeast or the
Mountain West or God knowswhere.
We'll have to uh hopefully theythey do it right this year and
and it continues to be a bigdraw and we can get like a live

(01:08:40):
stream, and it's like hopefullymust see TV.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:42):
So yeah, well, you're doing good, you're doing
good work.
You're doing your part and likecreating some excitement and
like really pushing this side ofthe sport forward in the US.
So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:53):
Thanks, thanks.
Yeah, I appreciate it.
Appreciate it.
Well, we're at about an hourfive now or hour six.
Um is there anything else youwanted to get to that maybe we
didn't we didn't tackle or youfeel pretty good about it?

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:04):
I know, no, no.
It's just been yeah, been apleasure to uh talk shop with
you and geek out a little bit onsome of these things.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:13):
I appreciate it.
We'll have to do this again.
Thank you so much for coming on.
I really appreciate it and uhlooking forward to the next
conversation.
And hopefully, hopefully we'llget to meet at a race this year.
I was hoping to meet you atPikes this year, but uh I wasn't
there scheduling conflict-wise.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:26):
So I feel like, yeah, that's a hard finish line
to meet people too, because Ifeel like everybody just wants
to get like off the mountain,you know, like you're so woozy
from the altitude that it'slike, yeah, let's get out of
here.
Um, but yes, we'd love to loveto come down to the springs and
get some dry running in thiswinter.
So we'll have to connect.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:44):
Yeah.
Let me know.
Let me know.
I definitely appreciate it.
And uh well, thanks again.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:49):
Yeah, sounds good.
Have a good rest of your day.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:52):
You too.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:52):
Okay.

unknown (01:09:56):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:59):
Guys, what'd you think?
I hope you enjoyed the episode.
I know I did.
This was a great conversation,and I want to really want to
thank Alicia for coming on for aconversation.
I mean, just uh uh amazing humanand uh just really appreciative
of her time.
It's also fun riffing on thesport.
Like I love to hear uh whatpeople think of the sport,
especially those that have beenin the sport for like the last
decade plus and where they wantto see things go and how they

(01:10:20):
feel about it.
So all good stuff there.
Guys, the best way you couldsupport her is to give her a
follow on Instagram.
That's gonna be at Alicia Vargo.
One word Alicia Vargo.
And uh yeah, send her a message,let her know what you guys
thought about the episode.
I'm sure she'd love to hear fromall of you.
Um, yeah, all good stuff there.
Uh guys, if you have beenenjoying the podcast, if you've
been enjoying the changes andsome of the things that we've

(01:10:41):
been uh making, doing over thebetter part of the last week to
two weeks, um, yeah, give us afive-star rating and review on
Apple, Spotify, YouTube, orwherever you consume your
podcast.
One thing right now I'm tryingto do is really build that
YouTube subscribership, and uhthat's where you're gonna be
able to watch all of ourepisodes in uh 4K video.
So you can hop on over to theSteep Stuff podcast on YouTube,

(01:11:04):
give us a subscription, give usa follow, and um yeah, that way
you can watch the episodes live.
Uh and I try to air them alittle bit before the pod
actually comes out.
I try to do the YouTube stufffirst.
So it's a good way to get someof the episodes beforehand.
Um and yeah, like I said,five-star rating and review
review on Apple Spotify YouTube.
That's how we can continue to uhget some discoverability and

(01:11:25):
share and tell these stories ofthese amazing athletes.
Um, yeah, one other way youcould support us is supporting
our brand partner, UltimateDirection.
Guys, check outultimatedirection.com.
It is the holiday season now.
There's a lot of good stuff onUD's website.
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(01:13:10):
Guys, I got one more episodedropping for you this week.
It's gonna be with Chad Hall,the uh the mythical man himself,
Mr.
Chad Hall.
Um, I'm really excited for thatepisode.
You guys are gonna get a kickout of that one.
So that'll be dropping on Fridaythis week.
So thanks for tuning in.
Appreciate you all.
Much love, James.