#137 - Chad Hall - The Steep Stuff Podcast

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome back to this Deep Stuff Podcast.
I'm your host, James Lariello.
And I'm so stoked today towelcome Chad Hall to the show.
Athlete, a man of many talents.
I also include him on there as aphilosopher at this point after
listening to this show overagain through editing it and
actually having theconversation.
Yeah, really excited to have hadthis conversation with Chad.

(00:21):
As most of you should probablyknow that name, Chad popped off
on the scene a few years agowith top finishes at races like
the Broken Arrow, Sky Race, aswell as the Mammoth Trailfest.
He's a multiple-time champion ofthe Mammoth 50K, has won the
Mammoth Triple Crown.
The guy has done it all in thesport.
He came on the show, wedebriefed his Kodiak 100K race,

(00:42):
which was his first long trailrace, talked all about that, got
into the nitty-gritty, talkedabout training, and we talked
about life.
We got into Chad is a deepthinker.
Like I said earlier, he is aphilosopher, in my opinion,
closest thing to a philosopherI've ever had on the show.
And we talked a lot about lifeand consumerism, the sport, the
sports direction, all kinds offun stuff.

(01:04):
I gotta be honest with you, thisis probably the most fun I've
had on a podcast, uh, as far asshow-wise, just in conversation,
since I started this thing.
So without further ado, I hopeyou guys enjoy this one.
We got deep.
Chat all.

(02:22):
Chad Hall, welcome to this DeepStuff Podcast.
How's it going, man?

SPEAKER_02 (02:26):
Good, good, yeah.
Just uh I'm up here in Big BearLake and it's like I don't know,
seems like it's like 70, 75degrees in November, so can't
complain at all.

SPEAKER_00 (02:36):
Oh, dude.
Good weather, man.
You getting some training in orwhat are you what are you
working on up there?

SPEAKER_02 (02:40):
Just yeah, yeah, I'm getting a little bit of training
in.
Um yeah, I always kind of popback up to Big Bear.
And actually, I just recentlymoved back from San Diego.
Um, but it's always kind of beenlike my training venues during
the summer, anyways.
Um, but yeah, I I just did thecan or not canyons, the Kodiak
100K up here, um, which I DNF'duh spoiler alert if we ever

(03:03):
talk, if we talk about that.

SPEAKER_00 (03:04):
I was gonna actively avoid that one.

SPEAKER_02 (03:08):
No, it's it that one was interesting.
I learned a lot.
But so yeah, kind of jumpingback into things because that
one, I mean, I really ran like45 miles of it and then walked a
bunch back to the town.
Um, but so yeah, kind of gettingback up and running again and
starting to get the wheelsturning on what's next here.

SPEAKER_00 (03:26):
Ooh, all right, we'll get into that in the pod.
Dude, first of all, how's yourhow's everything going?
How's your day going?
How's recovery going fromKodiak?
How's uh how's how's life?

SPEAKER_02 (03:36):
It's good.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um, yeah, like I I'm somebodywho again, I kind of I love
being outside.
I love being outside when it'swarm, especially.
So like fall for me is um it'ssuch a beautiful time of year up
in the mountains.
So I'm always just kind ofloving life at this point where
it's like getting that lastlittle bit of warmth before
things get properly cold.

(03:56):
Uh so yeah, life's going good.
Recovery is coming along.
Like I think it's um that was myfirst 100k that I've ever done.
So it's always interesting kindof getting, and granted, I
didn't make it through the wholething, so I'll still have to
check that box later.
But uh it's always interestingkind of noting like how that
process is recovering fromvarying distances and different

(04:18):
types of racing.
Um where like, you know, itfeels to me like the longer the
distance, the more like energykind of takes a while to come
back around.
We're like maybe like uh deeperinto runs now.
It's like like I did a properlylong run yesterday, and there's
like 26 miles of trail running,which like prior to Kodiak would

(04:39):
have felt pretty normal andstandard uh if you're just
running easy pace, but like mylegs were starting to kind of
tie back up again.
I was like, okay, I'm notcompletely not completely
recovered from that effort yet.

SPEAKER_00 (04:53):
Oh, interesting.
So do you think you're gonnacontinue to dabble in the
ultras?
Or because I know last few yearsyou've done obviously Mammoth
50K have had great resultsthere.
You've done almost pretty muchan ultra in a weekend between
doing the ascent, the 26k andthe 50k.
So is that kind of like the nextfrontier for you?

SPEAKER_02 (05:10):
I mean, that's kind of what I'm dabbling with.
That was very much like uhgetting into it a bit at Kodiak
and seeing what that 100kdistance is like.
Um, which is funny because I Iknow a lot of people will do
like a 50 miler before they do100k.
And to me, that seemed like anunreasonable step.
I'm like, ah, what's likethere's not that big of a
difference.
But then at 45, 46 miles intothis one, I was like, oh gosh, I

(05:34):
wish I was running a 50 milerright now.
Um, so yeah, so like I'm I'mkind of checking out that
distance.
I think uh I think I'll have togive another 100k a go at least
before I kind of decide ifthat's kind of the trajectory
for me, because um that one justdidn't seem very or that didn't
seem like a good representationof how it could go because I

(05:55):
went out blazingly fast and kindof put myself in a very
difficult position.
Um, but yeah, so I'm kind ofplaying around with it.
Like uh, you know, I come fromalso triathlons and then mostly
cycling in between uh sort of mystints as a runner and back to a
runner.
Um so I I do like the longerduration stuff.
Like um, you know, Leadville, Ithink took me like 640 on the

(06:19):
bike.
So like sort of thatseven-hour-ish range, uh, it
still seems like something I cando very well.
Uh, but running is justdifferent, you know, it's like
it's a different thing when yourlegs start to lock up, and if
you don't get the hydrationquite right or you just mispace
it, um it's a different animalwhere your legs just start

(06:39):
sticking to the ground and it'sit's less of an energy thing and
more of just a musculature thingof like can you force your body
to keep moving?
Is it has it been conditioned tothat?
Um, so yeah, I think I need alot because again, I learned a
lot of lessons.
I think I need some long days inthe mountains because I think I
come from like faster running,so that part comes pretty

(07:01):
normally, but I think sustainingthat for eight plus hours is
like a it's a it's a new thing.

SPEAKER_00 (07:07):
Yeah.
Would you say, I mean, I I Imake the argument all the time,
especially because like you'vehad such success with the short
trail stuff.
I would almost argue it's adifferent sport.
Like I feel like it's acompletely different sport.
Whereas like once you starthitting that over I don't know,
over six, seven hours and thingsstart to get a little weird at
that point, like muscularfatigue, nutrition, like there's

(07:29):
so many other aspects that Ifeel like play such a like a
huge role in it.

SPEAKER_02 (07:35):
Yeah, yeah.
And I think I'm I'm learning abit of that, or in the process
of learning a bit of that.
Because it's really it's justalways like you're operating on
some end of the spectrum of say,like, um, more like the high
performance thing of say, like,if you're a 5K runner, like how
fast can you turn things overneuromuscularly?
And um, there's a whole bunch ofother factors at play into like

(07:57):
running a fast 5K versus likethese really long things, it's
like resistance to fatigue justbecomes such a big portion of
it, right?
Where you just need to conditionyour body to just enduring for a
long period of time.
And and then like the nutritionand hydration support that and
like strength stuff to supportlike all these things that tend
to break down on you.

(08:18):
Um, so yeah, it's interesting.
I think it it is fun.
Like, I also coach runners, soit's it's always interesting to
kind of expand your experienceand get like a real touch point
of like, okay, that's what thethat's what that feels like.
Like, I kind of can understandum some of the properties that
you train to like preparesomebody for that, but it's a
totally different thing whenyou're in the midst of it.

(08:38):
You're like, okay, I really feellike what this feels like when
you get into the deep end of100k and things start to go
south on you.
Like, what what are the reallimiters here?

SPEAKER_00 (08:49):
Yeah.
Dude, if you don't mind measking, I I mean I gotta ask you
because like you took it outpretty hot with my coach
Michelino, who's also a goodfriend of mine.

SPEAKER_02 (08:56):
Oh Michelino coach is okay.

SPEAKER_00 (08:58):
Yeah, yeah, I yeah, no, he's Mikelino's bright dude.
He um, but I was just interestedto see like you know, how did
how did the the front dynamicsplay out with you guys?
Like, were you just chatting andand enjoying yourself?
Were you pressing the pacepretty hard from the start?
Like, how how was how was ittogether and kind of with that
front group in in the beginning?

SPEAKER_02 (09:17):
Yeah, yeah, that was that was funny.
That's where I I feel like uh areal dope about the way we race
the front end, because uh wewere on the start line and
Melino was like, uh he's like,How about uh between myself and
Eli and him?
He's like, How about gentleman'space?
Like getting started.
And I and I was kind of like,no, no gentleman's pace today.

(09:41):
Um and I always I've alwaysraced that way, like especially
in like a 50k.
Um, I feel like I I really liketo just ride that line.
Um and I think it's like saycoming from a marathon running
too, where it's like that's kindof how you run fast.
You get on that line and youjust kind of tread that line the
whole way of just like what'ssustainable.
Um whereas I think like in ahundred K, and kind of like you

(10:05):
were talking about it being alittle bit of a different sport,
I think you just start to getinto these this area where like
the margins aren't as fine onthat, like what's a what's the
pace you should be running upfront, right?
Like you can get back 10 to 15seconds a mile, I think pretty
easily on the back half ifyou've pace yourself well.
But if you've gone too hard,like you there you can't come

(10:26):
back from like getting thatpacing wrong.
Uh so I think that was like amajor lesson I learned of like
why you didn't need to take itout that hard.
You kind of just need to getthrough the front half of the
race and then really startrunning on the back half,
especially with the course thatwe were on.
Um, so yeah, I took it outrelatively hard.
Like I I got a gap pretty muchimmediately on the very first

(10:48):
like little road climb.
Um, and then at various pointsuh where like the trails would
kind of switch back or like thedirt roads would switch back,
uh, I realized like heading intothe first big climb, which I
think is like 11 miles.
Like I didn't really have muchof a gap, like maybe like 30
seconds or something.
Uh so yeah, it felt like I hadtried to kind of sneak away from

(11:10):
people so I could just run myown pace, and then that did not
really work out.
Um, but I think I extended a biton the climb.
Again, like probably went alittle bit too hard of effort,
but it felt good, you know, itfelt really good compared to
like how a 50k feels, whichfeels a little bit more
aggressive.
Um but yeah, I think I I made alittle wrong turn uh coming

(11:32):
towards the 50k mark.
So um Mickelino after the afterthe big climb up sugar loaf, and
then we came back off, and thenhe must have been kind of
motoring on some of the uh thisdirt road section coming back
over towards uh like the mainchunk of the back of the course.
Um and so he passed me and hepassed me pretty aggressively

(11:52):
too.
Like he came by with like someintention.
Uh but so I kind of like justprogressively like latched back
on to him because there's alwaysthose moments that are funny
when you when you try to runaway from everybody, when it
catches back up to you, therecan be a little panic moment
where you're like, that didn'twork.
Like I didn't establish any gapthere, and I was working pretty

(12:13):
hard to do it.
Um, especially when somebodycomes by you, like the strong
move on his part to like lookreally good and fresh and come
by with some speed and be like,just try to establish, like, I'm
going by you and you're nevergonna see me again.
Um, but I latched on to him, andso like we kind of got back on
onto this little road section,and we hit a climb, and I I even

(12:34):
commented to him, I was like,strong move with a hard pass,
and he's like, It's worth a try.
Uh so anyway, so we had like alittle back and forth, and
actually it's so dumb.
I made like a wrong turn turn onthe the road section because I
actually, when I was a roadcyclist, I used to bike through
that section of the course allthe time.
And so I was just on autopilot,where like I every time come up

(12:58):
over this climb, drop down, makethe right turn.
So I just do that, and then I'mlooking back and I'm like, I'm
by myself, like I'm definitelyon course here.
Uh so I had to run back by likeum at that point, Eli and I
forget the guy's name who Ithink ended up in third.
Uh came by two.
So I was back and forth and hadto run by those two guys, and
then I ended up catching back upto Mikelino, and I think he was

(13:20):
starting to cramp um when I cameby him.
So yeah, at that point in therace, like I actually I was
taking kind of look at the otheras it at these other guys when
I'm going by, and I wasthinking, like, I'm the
strongest guy in the race rightnow.
Like I'm still feeling reallygood and moving well.
Um, but yeah, I think just likethere was maybe I I needed a few
more bottles along the way.
Like I didn't take a feed comingback cross across one of the

(13:43):
feeds, and I think I should havegot a few more bottles there.
Um, because by the time I got tothe top of Snow Summit, which is
like 37 miles into the race, andyou had to go down some like
pretty technical single tracksin between there too.
Um, my legs just like all of asudden turned into mush.
Like all of a sudden I went fromrunning feeling really good even

(14:04):
on the climb to like runningwith some of the I think 21k
race was up there and just someof the back of the pack 21k
people, and like they startedgoing by me on downhill
sections, and I'm like, this isnot good.
Like I I should be moving, Ishould be moving much better
than this on downhills when I'mrunning, you know, like eight
minute a mile pace.
Like that should be where youstart to just cruise along

(14:25):
easily.
So so yeah, it was really just alot of management uh trying to
kind of rally, but then yeah, Iblew through my water too fast
and just got totally dried out.
So yeah, it got it got roughfrom like 37 to uh uh to like
45-ish.

SPEAKER_00 (14:46):
There we go.
Gotcha back.
Sorry, I lost you for a second.
No, you're good.
Um interesting, man.
Do you think, and not to pivottoo hard, um, what are your
thoughts on like I'd love to seeyou at like a JFK or something
like that.
I think you because it's an EastCoast race, especially living in
like in your Big Bear area,being at altitude, like I feel
like you could destroy thatrace.

SPEAKER_02 (15:06):
Yeah, yeah.
I almost I almost went to JFKlast year.
Um last year I was trying to Iactually had to drop out of um
Kodiak last year.
I was gonna do 100k here.
Um, but I was dealing withplantar fasciitis, which ended
up like persisting for a prettydarn long time.
Um, but yeah, that one's been onmy list because that one, you
know, like um for people whohave and like I'd kind of

(15:29):
consider myself a rhythm runner,so like faster running courses
tend to benefit me.
Um, you know, that one obviouslyhas a ton of running where it's
like like fast running on thatpath.
So that one's definitely been onthe list.
And I would say probably Ithought about maybe throwing a
Hail Mary and trying to jump inthis year, but I think probably,
yeah, maybe next year I mightgive it a go.

(15:52):
Yeah.

unknown (15:52):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (15:53):
Where do you see that?
What do you think now?
Do you see yourself kind ofgravitating between the short
trail and the long trail?
Like, do you think you'll you'llstill mix it up at races like
the GoPro games and stuff likethat, maybe broken arrow,
mammoth?
Or do you think like maybe thelong trail might be long-term
career-wise, like what you'rethinking more?

SPEAKER_02 (16:11):
Yeah, I mean, initial thoughts based off of
um, you know, this one kind ofjumping up in duration.
Uh I'm I'm very I have mixedemotions about it right now.
Because I feel like I need toagain kind of give it another
shot.
Because you don't really, it'skind of my philosophy on making
decisions, is you don't reallywant to make decisions based off

(16:31):
of like when you have like sayone thing that goes a little bit
amiss, where it's like thatcould have that could give me a
lot of negative emotions aboutthe hundredk, like I hate this
distance, like that was just asuffer fest and hurts.
Well, it's like also a lot oftimes that's how your first go
at stuff ends up being, uh,especially if you do things that
kind of set you up for it to gothat way.

(16:51):
Um, but I think that my thoughtthat maybe pushes me back
towards like 50k, and I think50k might kind of be the sweet
spot for me.
Like that just is a very good,like I I just like that duration
of like around about four hoursbecause you can still run hard,
um, but you do have to have likereally good endurance uh to uh
be able to sustain hard efforts.

(17:13):
Um but I think my my one my oneum iffy part of going up in
distance is like you do have toslow down, right?
So it's like you you can't runthat same effort uh that you can
run.
Like I I think that I wasthinking I could back it down,
say like five to ten percent,the way that effort feels, and

(17:35):
maybe it's actuallysignificantly more than that,
especially on the front half.
And I don't know if I reallywant to run that slow.
Like uh, I think in some ways Ilike to run fast.
I like, you know, it's like onsugar loaf, it's like was the
one sort of technical part ofthe the course.
Um and Mickelino, he ran reallywell on that whole section too.
Like sometimes you just want tolet it go and then run down a

(17:58):
trail fast and not have to likebe thinking about being able to
sustain that effort and not beatyour legs up because you gotta
be able to run another, youknow, 30 miles.
Um so yeah, I'm I'm kind of upin the air about that.
But also, it still does seem tome like guys do get to run, like
I think as you get conditionedto those distances, you do, you

(18:18):
know, and this is kind of trueof a lot of different things
where it's like as you getconditioned to the longer
distance, now you can push thepace a little bit harder and you
can kind of maximize uh youreffort over it.
Um but yeah, at this point, justlike I I feel like I don't have
the that sort of strength for ahundred K that allows me to run
right on the edge that I like torun on.

SPEAKER_01 (18:41):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (18:42):
I say I mean I kind of the comment came kind of
selfishly because I we don'twant to lose you uh, you know,
to the longer distances.
We love to keep you on our onthe short trail aspect of the
story.

SPEAKER_02 (18:51):
Well well then well another thought about that too
is I think like um sometimes asa trail runner, a lot of times
there's this sort of uh push.
I think just because there's alot of um like there's a lot of
people who just really like thelong stuff and it's a little bit
of a spectacle.
So it seems like sometimesthere's sort of this push to go
towards longer distances becausethere's like maybe just more

(19:14):
sponsorship opportunities ormore interest in general.
Um and I mean the sport kind ofI feel like for whatever reason
feels like it's very much kindof based in the long stuff, and
then we also kind of like do theshorter trail stuff, and it kind
of sometimes falls under thatbanner.
Um, so I think in some ways,like I'm uh I'm I'm definitely a

(19:34):
person who tends to be a littlebit of a contrarian, a little
counterculture where like I justwill resist being pushed in
directions just because that'slike the status quo.
Uh so I think I'm I'm in somesense going like, you know what?
Like I think uh like the 50k isa great distance.
Like I think that race should bejust as um legitimate in terms

(19:57):
of like uh viewing as winning a50k just as much as like that's
as worthwhile as winning ahundred mile race.
Like granted it's further, but Ijust think oh gosh,
reconnecting.
Uh I just think it's cool tojust value things and yeah, just
just value like the highperformance nature of just doing
any distance well, um, whereit's like it doesn't have to be

(20:19):
some mega long distance for itto be interesting or
entertaining.

SPEAKER_00 (20:23):
Yeah, dude, this drives me yeah, this drives me
crazy.
Like I feel like it's such avalued thing in in America that
we value like the long stuff andlike the short trail is valued
highly in Europe, but like notin America, which is I don't
know.

SPEAKER_02 (20:34):
I don't care that yeah, it's funny because we had
um, I think as Brooks uh hadsome um uh film festival thing
that came through here.
Uh and it was interestingwatching all these different
running films kind of one afterthe other.
And um I'll space on the girl'sname, but there was um a girl
over in Europe somewhere, andshe was trying to set just like

(20:57):
some cool record that was ashort, is a relatively short, I
mean, compared to you know, alot of the longer things, um
like probably like 10 milestotal in duration up and down
this like really cool lookingmountain, and they had cool
drone shots, and like the townwas really um interesting and
unique and like very small andtight.
Um and like to me that was socool, like and so interesting to

(21:20):
watch.
And some of the longer ones ofuh and again, I hate to say that
like uh what somebody's doing isnot as interesting, but I just
think like when you think aboutthe visuals of running very slow
and long, um, like those storiescan be really deep.
And I think especially theamount of suffering and
persistence that you have tohave to do those those things.
But like I I felt myself lessengaged with the story of like

(21:44):
this girl doing the Arizonatrail, where it's like that's a
really big endeavor, but itdidn't it's not quite to me as a
stimulating, is just ripping itup and down a mountain super
fast is like is really cool.
Then to watch somebody do itwell and move through the
mountains in very fast andprecise ways is like such an art
form.

SPEAKER_00 (22:03):
Yeah.
It's it is, it's interesting,and and a lot of it depends.
I mean, I think we're gonna goahead and hopefully build,
continue to build the fan basein the United States.
But yeah, it is interesting asto where the Euro and I think
it's because of mountainculture, dude.
You know, like it's anotherthing.
Like most of us didn't grow upin the mountains, or a lot of us
didn't, and a lot a lot of folkslike in the sport probably come
more from you know traditionalcross-country track or soccer

(22:26):
backgrounds, less skiing andmountaineering.
And I I wonder if thatinfluences it too.
It's where it's something longerand runnable seems more
interesting to people than youknow, this like let me run up, I
don't know, some some crazy peakand rip back down.
And I don't know.
It also creates, like you said,it's more visually interesting
too watching someone like DanKurtz or yourself like rip down

(22:47):
a peak, you know, yeah, runningsub five minute pace, you know,
where any wrong step you canliterally kill yourself.
You know, it's it's I don'tknow, I think it's fun.

SPEAKER_02 (22:58):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I I I agree.
I think maybe there's somethinglike um maybe to like humans
having this inclination to getlike uh all tripped up on
numbers and numbers being suchlike a satisfying thing that we
go after.
Um, because again, like as Icoach people uh who a lot of
times their marathon time mightbe like four hours or something.

(23:21):
And it's like I get I kind ofget the marathon thing.
Like uh like it's it's kind oflike if you do a marathon,
people know what that is, andyou can tell your friends, like
I did a marathon, and they havesome reference point for what
that means.
Whereas, like, you know, morepeople can do a 10K and a 5K,
but if you tell them your time,most people they don't know like

(23:42):
what does that mean for you torun a 30-minute 10k or 5k or
whatever.
Um, so I think sometimes it'slike we get caught up in the
spectacle things where it's like100 miles just seems to anybody
like, wow, that's crazy that youran a hundred miles.
So it's really easy to do thatand then just tell your friends
about it, and they're gonna beimpressed with no actual knowing

(24:04):
of like what any of it meansoutside of just knowing what
that distance is.
Um, whereas I think like thetimes are kind of irrelevant,
right?
If you have um it's onlyrelevant for say a specific
course where you're like, oh,I'm going after the FKT up and
down this mountain.
Uh, but the times outside ofthat don't really mean anything.
It's really hard to translate toany discernible meaning for

(24:25):
anybody else, uh, for you totell somebody what your time was
on a certain course.
So you kind of do, I thinkthat's where the video stuff
does help a lot, where you kindof immerse somebody in like,
this is what that looks like,though.
And like, how crazy is that?
And I think for people who likeyou were saying, if you have
that sort of integration in amountain culture and you've been
out in the mountains, like when,say, you're doing a route that

(24:47):
takes you up to some gnarly peakand it's like 11,000 feet or
something or 12,000 feet, we'relike, whoa, I know what that's
like when you're out in themountains and you're up in that
high elevation, like you feelexposed.
And that's a crazy thing to berunning fast out in those
exposed places.
Um, so yeah, I think yeah, thatthing of familiarity and
relatability, uh, I think isdefinitely a big component of

(25:10):
it.
Um, but yeah, I think it's I Idon't know how that process
happens.
I do think like the media doeshelp a lot.
Um, definitely like livestreams, like Mammoth Trailfest,
like when you have the livestream going and you have just
these epic backgrounds, it'slike that gives you a good sense
of what what the sport is doingor what you're doing in it.

SPEAKER_00 (25:29):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, dude, I think mammoth's agreat one.
Dude, Pikes Peak too.
I mean, you've been at Pikes acouple times now.
Like that's a that's that's agreat race where I mean, dude,
like it's such like if you rununder, I don't know, 217, 215 on
that route, like that's sorespectable.
You know, like it's that's sucha wild, like uh such a I don't

(25:50):
know.
You could tell me more becauseyou've run faster than I have on
it.
But like it's it's pretty legit,right?

SPEAKER_02 (25:56):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, that's like like thatrace to be able to just ascend
like 7,000 feet pretty muchstraight up, like with bare
barely any reprieve, right?
And going up to 14,000 feet.
It's a experience.
Like there's not a lot of races,like, or that's the only race
I've experienced like that,where um and I think it's what

(26:19):
makes trail running interesting.
It's like a lot of say, like alot of road races, they might
have their own sort of characterto them.
Um, but a lot of races are gonnahave very similar feels, right?
Like a lot of, especiallybecause there's a big
inclination to try to makecourses fast.
So fast courses are all gonnafeel relatively the same.
Whereas trail racing, it's likeyou get such a different

(26:40):
experience on different trailsand the way they feel and the
the nature of how they roll.
Um, but that one just being likeyou're experiencing trying to
run hard at 14,000 feet, andagain, you kind of you learn.
I think as I've run, say thatcourse a number of times, it's
like you kind of learn therhythm of it and you learn how
to run uh an individual course.

(27:01):
Um and yeah, so like that one,that one's crazy.
I mean, that one is prettyremarkable.
Uh, I think the way that thatone feels is very unique.
It's like anything that high,just I find my energies all over
the place.
So you have to go through thesereal like deep lows, and then
you kind of survive them, andmaybe your legs come back
around.
So yeah.

(27:21):
Have you done that one?

SPEAKER_00 (27:23):
I have so I live in Colorado Springs, but I have
never actually raced the race.
Like I've done my own personaltime trials up it, and like I in
order to get the best of you,like it's uh dude, it's a it
exposes you.
It's such a hard race to nail.
Um yeah, I don't know.
Probably next year.
I think I'm gonna finally sackup and do it probably next year
or the marathon.
We'll see.
I don't know.

(27:43):
Okay.
Um, but I know that courseintimately.
Um it sucks though that wealways have to like compete with
mammoth for the same weekendbecause I'd love to see you come
back and give it like a properpro I mean, you've obviously
given it proper rips, but likeyou've never been a champion on
the course.
So it'd be cool to see you comeback and try to give Joe a hard
time one of these years andfinally finally get it.

SPEAKER_02 (28:05):
Yeah, I I would too.
That's a course where I feellike um, you know, uh again,
like every every route,especially mountainous stuff, is
always different.
But I have I have like um SanGregorio close to here, which
goes up to Levin.
I forget the exact elevation,but I feel like that one, like
I've gotten you like you kind ofknow when you feel satisfied
with the effort.
You're like, that one I reallynailed.

(28:27):
Um, and I've yet to feel thatway on pikes.
And I think partially justbecause again, that that level
of elevation is just a totallydifferent game.
Um, but I spent actually like amonth.
Uh I was filming an actual localmountain bike girl do Leadville
this year.
And so I was kind of filming allher preparations.
So we were out at Bryanhead, uh,then we went out to Leadville

(28:48):
for the Leadville stage race,and then uh we were out in
Breckenridge.
So I ended up spending like amonth around 10,000 feet, uh,
which was great for herpreparation, right?
Racing around that elevation.
But that was the first time I'dbeen at like that high elevation
for a sustained period of time.
And I know Remy spent a bunch oftime in Breckenridge before he
uh set the record.

(29:08):
Um, and that makes aconsiderable difference.
Like I definitely felt waydifferent going up, like I was
doing a bunch of 14 uh 14ers andlike 13,000 mountains.
Um, and that made such a bigdifference by the end, like just
the way those efforts felt,where it's like, okay, I think
to do pikes proper, I think youdo need to have like some

(29:30):
sustained time at high highelevation.

SPEAKER_00 (29:33):
Yeah.
Yeah, I think that's the onlyway to nail it.
Unless you're a genetic freak,which even I mean, you have the
genetics on your side.
I think it's a matter of justgetting the altitude adaptation,
right?
To sleep at 10,000 feet for acontinued amount of time.
But there's trade offs too.
I don't know.
I've thought about this a longtime because I also like I raced
on the East Coast a bunch.
And it's like the trade off ofliving at 6,000 feet and then

(29:55):
going down.
I can't, I just can't generatethe same amount of power at
6,000 feet or 7,000 feet that.
I can at East Coast on the EastCoast.
So it's that power trade-offversus like the recovery
trade-off.
Whereas like if you're sleepingat 10,000 feet, that's gotta be
substantially more stress on thebody, you know, to actually get
the full recovery.
So I don't know, it's like akind of a funny trade-off.

SPEAKER_02 (30:17):
Yeah, well, it's funny because that's um like
with cycling with power meters,you see like a lot of metrics in
a more tangible way.
Um where like say when I was acyclist, I felt like I actually
got a really good jump inperformance when I moved down to
sea level.
So I was like down in Solvan,California.
Um but prior to that, I wasactually out at Colorado

(30:38):
Springs, and then I was back uphere in Big Bear.
Um, and you're right, likethere's that trade-off.
So I think like the best thingyou can do is sort of have uh
like stents, right?
Where you have like a period oftime where you're at sea level
and then a period of time where,say, like right prior to the
race, you're getting your bodyadapted to altitude, but you're
still bringing the training andthat power that you built up uh

(30:59):
elsewhere.

SPEAKER_00 (31:01):
Yeah.
It's interesting because Remy, Imean, I don't I don't know if
Remy actually lives at altitudein Switzerland.
He must.
Or I think maybe before the racehe was sleeping in an altitude
tent and then went to Breck.
I don't know.
I'd have to do some digging intoit.
But yeah, there's some I feellike there's a series of events
that you can kind of nail, andif you get them proper, I think
that like it it's like theperfect mix for something like

(31:21):
that, which is I don't know.
I love that like nitty-grittytrying to figure out like the
extra like one to two percentstuff that you can kind of do to
get the most performance gains,it's to like geeking out over
it.

SPEAKER_02 (31:33):
Yeah, yeah.
And um it it I think it'sespecially intriguing with say
something like that, that's likejust a straight uphill race,
because you're and something I'mstill playing around with,
because again, I come from abackground of like road running,
like flat stuff.
Um and so it's so interesting,especially with like the trail
running where you get thisintermixture of like people come

(31:55):
from ski mountaineering or evenlike cycling, or like actually
my transition back to runningand trail running specifically
was through cycling, where itwas very curious, where I think
those really strong legs juststart to pay dividends, both
uphill and downhill.
So that that nature of like howto run uphill fast is is
interesting too, where like sayeven like from a technique

(32:17):
standpoint, where like Remy isvery like lopy, like he does not
kind of utilize like a reallystrong, like fast turnover like
a lot of people do.
Like he kind of has this sort ofbouncy up the mountain um thing
about him, which is is cool tojust see how successful you can
be with different different waysof uh even your running
mechanics.

SPEAKER_00 (32:38):
Yeah.
Yeah, I'd be so curious to seehow much time he actually spends
in the gym or something likethat.
Just because you know, you'reright.
He he does have a bouncy stride,it almost looks inefficient for
running uphill, and it's crazyfast.
I mean, you've gotten you'vebeen close to him in races and
you've kind of watched ityourself.
So it's like, I don't know, it'sit is interesting.
I wonder, like, do you spend alot of time in the gym?

(32:58):
Like uh like what is yourtraining actually like
specifically look like?

SPEAKER_02 (33:01):
Uh yeah, I mean, that's where I feel like uh I I
question a little bit if there'sother things I could be doing in
the gym, like if it's worth say,doing like heavier weights and
actually getting morelegitimately strong, as opposed
to I think a lot of historicallymy gym work has been more like
injury prevention, um, and maybelike small gains.

(33:23):
And like occasionally I'll I'lldo some like proper lifting.
Um, but I kind of float in andout of it.
Uh but yeah, like uh yeah, solike a lot of my stuff is
preventive stuff, but I thinkthat's something I'm actually
considering more is umspecifically for uphill running.
And it's some of it I do thinkis helpful.

(33:43):
Like a lot of people are intolike either ski mountaineering
or like split boarding or somedoing something like that,
right?
Where I think that's actually areally good strength movement
that you're just doing over andover again, um, which I think is
why maybe Remy's style is thatway, is that like he is
operating out of a lot of legstrength that he built up just

(34:03):
from doing like coming from thatthat sort of background.
Um, as opposed to like I thinkif you're coming from a like
faster turnover type of running,maybe like working that uh that
strength is more of a necessity.
Um, which I think I would I'dput myself in that capacity.
And even like the fact that Ihaven't been on the bike very
much, uh, I feel like I was veryfit coming off the bike because

(34:26):
you can just put such a hugeworkload, and again, you're
getting like good actual likemuscular strength in that
process too.
So I I tend to like to try to dothings in ways that are more
interesting and entertaining tome.
Like I'm not a huge gym rat typeof guy.
So like I would prefer to likeI'd prefer to find it other ways
if I can find it there.

SPEAKER_00 (34:47):
Well, I I like where your head's at.
I mean, and the reason I saythat is because I don't know,
like I would imagine, I Iactually did not check your
Strava before before thisconversation.
But my guess is like you'redoing a lot of flatter running.
It seems like that's you knowthe how you get the most volume.
That's how you obviously get, Idon't know.
I I run predominantly flat stuffmore, but I've been wondering

(35:07):
lately.
It's like, man, like the I don'tknow, you make you capture, you
kind of mix that in with cyclingas well.
And because I I just have feltalways found that cycling helps
my uphill running a ton, butthen throwing in the gym, you
know, and you kind of throwthose three together as a
recipe.
And I think that does actuallywork.
It's a good like supplement ifyou don't have schemo, I guess,

(35:30):
in in your in your back pocket,you know, and you can kind of
you know combine all the otherthree.
So it's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 (35:37):
Yeah, totally.
Yeah, like a lot of times you'retrying to yeah, it's utilize the
resources you have available,right?
Um, and try to like cover thosesame bases that you could get in
in different regards.
Um yeah, but yeah, I I do thinkuh yeah, something like like I
do think having these otheroutlets like cycling, like ski

(35:59):
mountaineering or something, isis useful where you're like in
trail running, I think with justthe nature of like a lot of
stuff getting a lot of raceshaving really steep sections of
them, right?
Um, where that just becomes sucha different thing than running
fast.
So I think it's it's useful to Ithink you can get some of that
from running fast on the flats,like um, because it is like

(36:21):
becomes a powerful movementagain if you're say doing really
fast like four hundreds to Krepeats or something, where
you're actually like reallymoving along.
Um, and I think that's actuallyreally helpful too for your
descending, where like now youhave that sort of like leg speed
to keep up with the descent andbeing able to use uh downhills
well.
Because I think that's whereprobably a lot of to me, I think

(36:41):
amateurs maybe give awaysometime is um they're not
taking advantage of thedownhills quite as well as like
a lot of elites can just let itrun a little bit better.
Um but yeah, but yeah, I thinkcycling though is a great thing
for trail running.
And I keep every time I jumpback on the bike because I'm
injured, I'm like, you need tokeep riding the bike, like stop

(37:03):
letting it go.
Because again, like even I saythe whole thing about humans and
numbers because I get caught upin numbers, and like you're
you're saying, sometimes you'relike, Oh, I'm gonna run flat so
I can get this many miles perweek or whatever.
And it's like that's satisfyingto the mind, but it doesn't
really matter if that's keepingyou from doing the thing that
would actually help you getprepared for the thing you're
doing.
Which, like, so for me, I kindof tend to operate more out of

(37:25):
time in the summer and just godo a bunch of trail running and
and try to use that to conditionuh the legs.
Uh, because yeah, like you kindof at some point for trail
running, like you gotta get theconditioning to the downhills
too, because like that's gonnathat's the other half of the
battle, really, is it's the thepounding that your legs take.

SPEAKER_00 (37:43):
So true.
Dude, it's so funny you saythat, and then then I'll get off
training after this.
But like I got injured back inApril and probably did like a
solid block on the bike, um,because that's what the body
would allow on the gravel bike.
Dude, as soon as I startedrunning again, like I'm a big
gap guy, like I love looking atthe grade adjusted paces, like
especially for like steepclimbs.
My gaps might like so put itthis way, like I don't know,

(38:07):
normally I don't know, like itwas a lot easier to get in like
high five, low six minute gradeadjusted pace after being on the
bike.
And I was like, holy shit, likehow is this possible when I
haven't been I haven't ran in amonth?
Like, why is this?
I don't know what it does to themuscles, but yeah, it it
definitely I mean my downhillwas shit, but like the uphill, I
I was actually like thoroughlyimpressed.

(38:27):
So I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 (38:29):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean I I think you just lookat it even just from like um
something you can observe if youlook at elite runners versus
elite cyclists, right?
Where like you're gonna get alot more quad development and
elite cyclists because you'reactually it it's just because
it's such a it's such a strengththing where it's like you don't
need to have the most efficientpedal stroke.

(38:50):
You just need to push downreally hard, essentially.
Like that's where the majorityof your power is coming from.
Um, and then some of the pedalstroke smoothness is like kind
of just getting the other legout of the way so that you're
not creating sort of dead weightfor the the foot that's actually
doing a lot of the work.
Um whereas like running fast onthe flats is like such a rhythm

(39:11):
and such like um a fine-tuned,like skilled movement.
It has a lot to do with justlike you're wearing in
neuromuscular pathways, soeverything's firing super fast
and you're running efficiently.
And that's just so different,right?
That's a completely differentsystem than like having the leg
strength to just push reallyhard, and that's really like a
musculature thing.
Um, which is why I think likeyou get then in you know the

(39:33):
best marathoners in the world,like pretty like not a lot of
like quads going on theretypically, right?
Like not a lot of muscle mass ingeneral, uh, because it's really
just like an efficiency ofkeeping momentum moving, uh,
which is a lot more about theskill of it and yeah, again,
like firing things really fastand dealing with that sort of
fatigue that comes with umkeeping like a high rate of

(39:56):
turnover and like a veryconsistent thing where you're
like hitting the same pace overand over and over again.
Whereas like trail running, it'slike you get such variety, it's
like you have to push up a supersteep thing and then you gotta
be able to drop it downsomething steep and kind of
break and manage all that.
So, like such it's justinteresting how different the
demands of like road runningversus trail running are.

SPEAKER_00 (40:18):
Yeah, yeah, it dude.
It's it's such a weird sport,such a fun sport.
How did you uh I'm gonna swiftshift gears like massively now
because I I actually didn't knowthis and I couldn't find it in
my research.
How did you get into the sport?
Like, how did you find trailrunning?

SPEAKER_02 (40:32):
Yeah, it's funny because um I'm gonna film
something with this path projectcompany uh later this week up
here in Big Bear.
Uh and so we're going out to atrail that like I used to hike
with my family on when I was akid.
And uh it's like it's calledCastle Rock Trail, and like you
end up with like a little rockscramble, but it's got like
bouldery things the whole way.

(40:53):
So like we would um when I was akid, we'd play like kind of like
the floor is lava and try tolike stay on the rocks as long
as you could on the way down.
So like I kind of grew up likegoing on hikes with my family,
being outside, uh kind oflearning to enjoy the outdoors
when I was young.
Um, and so uh yeah, so like mypath kind of took me from uh

(41:14):
running in high school andcollege and a little bit out of
college, where I was trainingwith my brother as he was
training for like the LondonOlympics and the marathon.
Um, and then from there I kindof got this bug to go try do to
do trathlons because my dad haddone the Iron Man when I was in
like fourth grade.
And that was actually sort oflike the the groundwork that
laid that he laid for like uslike future runners as he

(41:38):
coached us in high school.
Um, so anyway, so I always kindof had this notion that maybe
I'd go into trathlons at somepoint.
So I kind of made that leap uhas part of this collegiate
recruitment program that liketries to uh take division one
runners and turn them into likeuh non-draft um like Olympic
path triathlete, which is likethat was a very intense, kind of

(41:59):
weird period of time.
Uh because you're just traininglike crazy, like you're
professional, but you're not aprofessional.
You know, you're brand new tothe sport, but you're like fully
in it straight away.
Um, and that's funny becauseactually I did that for a year.
Then the next year I was part ofthis like sister program as I
was trying to go towards likelong course trathlons.
Uh and Eli was part of theKhlegi recruitment program.

(42:23):
So Eli and I had this sort oflike crossover and trathlons
first, which is uh it was funnyto come back and let's start to
race each other on the trails.
Um, but anyway, so yeah, so likeultimately trathlons don't
really work out.
I mean, I probably could havekept it going, but I was I had
like really struggled to get ahang of the swimming.
Like I got decent, but like forespecially non-draft, you have

(42:43):
to be really, you have to bedarn close to the front pack to
really be in the mix.
Um, so like it just never quiteclicked.
And honestly, I kind of hatedswimming.
I was like, look looking atlooking at a dotted line for
hours, just not not my favoritething in the world.
Uh, but I really fell in lovewith cycling at that point.
So I came back up here actually,um, started getting more on the

(43:07):
road bike and just like becauseI like we did some fun stuff in
that program.
Like we did this thing calledthe Underground Crit, which is
like a criterion at nighttimeout in Scottsdale.
Um, who like there's actuallysome like amazing pros that came
out of uh some of the juniorsguys that would come and race
out there.
Um, this guy Brandon McNulty inparticular.

(43:28):
But, anyways, uh so I kind ofcame back here and was like,
okay, like I I love cycling.
I've been struggling with thetriathlon deal.
I'm just gonna let myself likeride a bunch and maybe try to do
some bike racing.
So jumped into road cycling fullon, like, really try to give
that a full go.
And I I made up to being on likea domestic elite team and race
pro-nationals uh my last yearand race some like the bigger

(43:51):
races stateside.
But we have like a very the theroad cycling scene here is
interesting where it's notreally representative of the
type of racing you get over inEurope.
So like most people are goingover there from the time that
they're like pretty young to getthat sort of experience.
So it's like it's actually avery difficult pathway to go,
like is especially like asemi-older athlete to try to get

(44:13):
to the elites uh by going bypathway of like racing in the
States.
Um, but anyway, so yeah, roadcycling also added in mountain
biking as I was just like uphere training Big Bear and
couldn't I was like mad atmyself for not being out on the
trails.
So got a mountain bike and gotinto mountain biking um and
really fell in love withmountain biking because I mean

(44:35):
it just again, these ways inwhich like you expand like how
far you can go and see stuff.
Um, but yeah, like at the end ofit, I would like the way I would
kind of categorize it was likewasn't good enough at swimming
to really do traffons full on,but it was really good on the
running and the cycling.
Uh then it's cycling, like I wasjust kind of too late to the
game.
Like uh I was decent enough, butit was like any and even like

(44:59):
you can be strong on the bike,but the really good guys have
typically also been doing itwhen they're young because you
do get like a really efficientpedal stroke, and you just have
that sort of underlying powerthat just takes time to build
up.
And it's what's great aboutcycling is you can just build
that engine.
Like, I think it builds a littlebit more consistently to me than
it does with running, whererunning seems to me to have a

(45:22):
little bit more plateaus,probably because injuries pop up
a lot more frequently for us.
Um, but yeah, so I was just kindof thinking about uh well, for
when I had done this race out inSolvang, that was like I was a
cyclist, and um there's aSpartan national championships
was out in Solvang.
So I just jumped in it and I gotsecond to Andy Wacker and like
almost won.

(45:42):
I was in, I was out in the leadand I started to get like some
side cramps.
Um, but like came darn close towinning and made more money than
I had made at all in cycling.
So I was like, maybe maybe Ican't avoid the fact that I'm a
runner here.
Um so anyway, so that that kindof like gave me a little bit of
an inkling to maybe go back intoit into trail running.

(46:03):
Uh and I think trail running,trying to think what year that
was, maybe like 2019.
I felt like trail running hasjust kind of been on the up and
up too, I think progressively.
Um yeah, yeah.
So I think I I kind of thoughtlike where like I'm trying to do
all these things that I don'treally have roots in, and I'm
decent at them, but like what amI actually rooted in?

(46:26):
I was like when you're a kid,you were out jumping around on
rocks and like having fun, likeuh being out on trails and
stuff.
So uh to me it was kind of funto go through this pathway of
like exploring all these otherdifferent um sports and things
that like it was fun to learnand to go through that process
of picking up something new.
And I think like learning is askill set in itself, but then

(46:49):
it's nice to go back to thething that like you're just good
at because you've been doing itforever, like you have the
foundation.
Uh so I think for me that's kindof been trail running a bit and
why I like I I love running downtrails fast.
It's like I have a little bit ofa basis for that.
I've like jump around rockssince I was a kid.
Um, and that that's it'shelpful, right?

(47:10):
Like your body gets evenconditioned to be able to do
those things that you uh thatyou condition it to.

SPEAKER_00 (47:17):
So you've been around the sport now for a few
years.
What do you think so far?
Like, do you do you like theprofessionalization of it?
It continues to move what itseems like on a professional
trajectory.
Like now we have worlds, we'reor we've had worlds, obviously,
but it seems like worlds isstarting to get a little bit
more legit.
There's a lot more discussionnow about it being an Olympic
sport, uh, at least within thenext few decades.
What do you think so far?

(47:38):
Are you are you impressed by it?
Do you think it's still smalland growing?
Do you think it it's got a fewmore years before it really pops
off into the scene?
Like what are you especiallycomparing it to cycling uh and
uh you know primary running or Idon't want to call it primary
running or running that's nottrails, let's put it that way,
marathoning uh or track.
Like what do you think?

SPEAKER_02 (47:59):
Yeah, yeah, it's an interesting question because I
do think like um trade-offs toeverything, right?
Like I think there's certainthings that we love about trail
running when it feels like thatgrassroots trail running scene
that I think we all kind of knowand love a little bit.
Um and the pro vetprofessionalization of it
definitely brings sort of thecontrary to that, where it's

(48:21):
like you do get a lot more justof the hubbub, right?
Of like media and sponsors andlike sort of the more corporate
um mingling that goes on withthat.
And I think like I've never donea good job of the business side
of it, um, where like I haven'treally pursued sponsorships all
too much, even though I reallyshould, because those it's how

(48:43):
you get opportunities.

unknown (48:45):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (48:45):
Uh, you know, it's like that's how you get yourself
places, and I think like I thinkI've I've seen the error of my
ways in that, and a bit of likeyou just kind of, you know,
that's how you get a team aroundyou.
That's how you kind of get thoseuh social networks that also
provide their own form ofmeaning.
I think in some ways that sortof demonized the corporation of
things, um, maybe to a fault.

(49:07):
Uh, but I do think there's abalance to be struck there where
it's like um I don't know, likehow that re how those
relationships get managed, ormaybe just like the types of
stories that we push towards thefront and kind of how we how we
kind of portray the sport uh andhow we go about it.

(49:27):
Because I think sometimes therecan be like I think what we all
don't like, like this is kind ofmy one thing with like UTMB,
like at Kodiak, like there'sthis sort of thing where like to
go into the venue, you have towalk through the whole Hoka
store where they force, theyfunnel you in here.
It's like you're gonna have togo be a consumer and maybe buy
some things, and you gotta walkaround and and kind of partake

(49:49):
in all that.
You're kind of forced down that.
Um, where I want there to bemaybe a little bit of balance of
this sort of like retaining thesort of like organic grassroots
feeling to it, because to meit's like that's what trails
are.
You're you're not on the roadsout intermingling with like just
um human culture, like you'reout in nature, and I think to

(50:10):
try to retain that sort of likeauthentic feel, it is it is
something I think to be I like Ihope it just gets managed well
uh by all the people that areinvolved with that that
influence.
Um, but I do like, I mean, uhthe fact that there's like uh
any interest for it to be anOlympic sport, which I think is

(50:30):
makes a lot of sense to me.
Like I look at like um likecross-country mountain biking,
and I think it'd be cool if wehad something like that where
it's like say like a circuitthat has like interesting trail
features where it's like veryviewer friendly and you get kind
of like a circuit trail racethat you can you can put on
because like XE mountain bikingis super engaging and fun to
watch, and I think trail runningcould very much be that way too.

SPEAKER_00 (50:54):
Yeah.
Oh dude, you you brought up theconsumerism part.
I gotta ask you about thisbecause I find I I think I think
we actually have a lot of commonground on this because and I
think we share a lot of the samethoughts.
Like I see, like, for instance,uh and this is I I mean maybe
this is shade, so whatever, butlike I I see like Satisfy
running, and they sell likethree or four hundred dollar

(51:15):
shoes, and I see like we gottathrow shade on Satisfied.
I mean, dude, what are we doinghere?
Like uh like the moth tech.
Like my favorite, my favoriteever photo was like Jackson Cole
took like a t-shirt and like cutholes into it and was like moth
tech.
And it's like you're gonna sellthat for a hundred something
bucks.
Like, I don't know.
I I just hate consumerism forthe sake of consumerism.

(51:36):
Like, let's buy this shirt, eventhough it's a t-shirt with holes
in it, we're gonna charge you astupid amount of money.
It's like, why that's not thethat's not the reason we're in
the store, that's not why we dothis.
And I I see a lot of brandsgoing for the money grab these
days, and it's just like I getit.
If you make really good stuff,you only really need one really
good thing, and that's gonnahelp you do what you need to do,

(51:56):
and you wear that forever andyou destroy it, and then you get
a new one when it's done.
I get that.
But it's like you don't need allthe bells and whistles to enjoy
the sport.
I think that's a little crazy,and I think we've we've gone a
little over the boat with that.
I don't know if you would agreeor what your thoughts are there.

SPEAKER_02 (52:12):
Yeah, I mean, I I guess like like just my thought
on consumerism in general is I Ijust don't like, and I maybe
it's like in some sense, I thinkit's part of like a huge problem
in our world right now.
It's sort of like theexploitation and manipulation
with certain aspects of being ahuman.
Uh so I think like advertisingis something that should be very

(52:34):
there, they're like there'sthere's ways of doing it with
integrity, and there's ways ofdoing it not with integrity,
right?
Like if you're trying to makepeople think that they need
something they don't need, Idon't think that's a good thing,
right?
And I don't really want to be apart of that.
Uh, I also don't like sort ofinauthentic advertising too,
like sort of the issue ofsatisfy.
It's like you guys are kind oftrying to make a brand that

(52:55):
looks um like dirt bag style,but like with these super
premium prices.
And I'm like, what is this?
This is confusing.
It's oxymoron.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like it bothers my brain alittle bit where I'm like, this
kind of pisses me off.
Um where I like I just wantthings, you know, it's like

(53:16):
don't dress like a like, I don'tknow.
It's like, how can you hold bothof those?
It's like I do kind of love likethe authentic dirt bag
lifestyle, just go and pull inon something, but that's like
not when you're spending$400 onlike a pair of shorts or
something, those two things justdon't jive and it hurts my brain
sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 (53:36):
I agree with you, and plus most of the dirt bags
we know aren't wearing satisfy.

SPEAKER_02 (53:40):
And how you like pretend dirt bags, is that a
thing now?
Like, I want to look like I'mpoor, but I'm not.
I'm actually like very well todo.
Uh yeah, again, I'm like, I justyeah, it hurts it hurts my brain
a little bit.
So, yeah, like the the just thatthat nature of like trying to I

(54:00):
don't know what what is that?
It's almost like its own likeappropriation in a way of like a
kind of culture that's like therich also pretending like
they're not rich or something.
Like it just seems like a weirdbranding thing to me.

SPEAKER_00 (54:13):
Yeah, I I couldn't agree more.
I I and I think it's like Idon't know, if that's your jam,
that's your jam, I get it.
And like it satisfies just a tooeasy of an example for me to
throw at the wall.
So that's why we're we'repicking on them.
But I don't know, I see it a lotin the sport, and I do agree.
I think it's and I'm gonna I'mgonna take this question one
more further because you knowyou have the potential to

(54:34):
obviously you you anytime youwant to probably could be a
professional athlete in thesport with a big brand deal.
How do you grapple with that?
Or how would you grapple withthat?
You know, because there isrequirements for social media,
there's requirements usually Imean for for most contracts, you
know, generally there's somekind of how how would you keep
it authentic versus inauthentic?

SPEAKER_02 (54:55):
Yeah, I mean, honestly, I think that's kind of
what's paused me from tryingharder at it.
And I have tried, like I had anagent at one point and like we
didn't get any deals.
Um granted, I think we werepretty much going mostly after
um shoe deals, uh, which can beharder to get it, especially
time timing on it.
Um but yeah, I've grappled withit a lot.
I think in like it's aninteresting thing when you're of

(55:19):
my generation that like um andhaving been like in very close
uh relationships with peoplewho've had contracts for long
periods of time, like I've justbeen in the sport for a little
while, uh, where like thereweren't there were not the same
stipulations prior to likesocial media, right?
Where it's like that was kind ofsomething that progressively was
integrated into it.
And so I think a lot of myresistance was seeing also this

(55:42):
like athletes becoming theselike marketing agents, where
it's like you gotta do thestupid freaking show you the
product thing, right?
Of like, I use this and it'slike helping me get to where I'm
trying to go.
Where like that's it's a part ofit, it's a part of it.
Like, that's how you createthose relationships in which you
get support.
Um, but I just like authenticityis so important to me that it is

(56:05):
hard where it's like I wouldn'twant to have I wouldn't want to
be involved with companies Iwouldn't truly want to use that,
I wouldn't pay my own money touse their stuff, right?
Because to me, that's sort ofthe litmus test.
Is like if I wouldn't pay forit, then I really don't think I
should be encouraging otherpeople to pay for something that
I wouldn't, right?

(56:26):
That seems um inauthentic to me.
So I think that'd be onecontingency is like uh just
really believing in thecompanies that I'm working with.
Um but I think on the flip sideof it, I think something that
I've realized like a lot of itwas sort of some like not
completely thought-outframeworks of like sort of this
judgment towards the consumerside of it as a whole.

(56:48):
Um, where there's also like, Ithink what I feel better about
now and potentially pursuing alot more um trying to get
sponsorship opportunities going,is like I do believe in the
things that I need though,right?
Like shoes get me out into thewilderness and get me to very
cool places.
So like I think I should feelgood about getting a good pair
of shoes on somebody's feetbecause a good pair of shoes

(57:10):
really can make the differencein terms of you getting out into
a cool experience out in natureor out in the mountains or
wherever, and having a goodexperience.
And like to me, that's such amassive part of like mental
health and feeling like reallylike human in a different way
than how we experience beinghuman, like in our normal, sort

(57:31):
of like more human, like ourinteractions a lot of times are
more in like human constructs asopposed to out in nature.
Uh, so like I feel good aboutthat, and then like nutritional
products that get people out andfeeling good, and there's lots
of uh ways in which likeinnovations on that front, like
it allowed people to take inmore fuel on board and perform
better.
So, like, there's a lot of Ithink legitimately good products

(57:53):
out there around that theoutdoor space.
And I think the outdoor space isa good place to exist in too,
um, just in that that's a goodendeavor to get people outdoors.
So so yeah, I feel like I'vekind of kicked myself for like
sometimes being overlyjudgmental about some of that
stuff, um, and trying to likeditch those unhelpful uh
frameworks.

(58:14):
Um, but I think there's also alot of things to be cautious
about because yeah, I think likeuh you know, we all do
contribute to the betterment oflike our society and culture,
right?
And like whether we take thatresponsibility seriously or not
does kind of end up goingdownstream and like affects like
what we end up all having todeal with.

SPEAKER_00 (58:37):
Oh man, dude, we could we could do a long
podcast.
I I I have so many questions, somany things off of this.
Because I think you and I thinkvery similarly, and I I'm a very
deep thinker in a lot of thestuff and I do grapple with a
lot of things.
I let me ask you this.
This is gonna we're we're makinga left-hand turn from from
sponsorship.
But like are are what do youdude?

(58:58):
Are you like stoked with likewhere like the future of things
are going, like in the world?
Because it seems like you'vepondered this and you think
about a lot of these things.

SPEAKER_02 (59:07):
It's a good question.
I mean, we're in a very, Ithink, interesting part,
especially in the stateside,right?
Like, we're in a very kind ofinteresting point in history
right now.
Um, where like you can kind ofjust feel the energy, I think,
that's kind of built up uh allover the place where it feels
like there's things happening,right, for better or worse.

(59:30):
Um, but yeah, I've I've done alot of pondering on on my own,
of just like my own beliefsystems, uh, because I was
raised in like a charismaticChristian church, and I think uh
I've been somebody, and maybethis is like part of the process
of being a deep thinker, is youtend to take in a lot too, and
like kind of looking outside,being observant, taking a lot of
information.

(59:51):
Uh, and sometimes that can belike confusing initially,
because you have to do sort ofthis sorting process of like,
okay, what do I make of all thisinformation?
That I've collected here.
And I think I felt that veryintensely.
Like I think during thepandemic, I think that was
starting to build where like youjust get this sort of like

(01:00:11):
underlying uh divisive thinggoing on, uh, like sort of
energy again, kind of beingexpressed, I think, at this
point in time.
Um so I think I I went very deepinto my own mind of like what do
I believe about things on like avery foundational level and
philosophical way.
Um, and then kind of buildingthat back up.

(01:00:33):
Because I think what I see goingon a little bit is like I think
that sometimes you can have likecracks in your foundation of
like, what are we shooting forhere?
What are our goals?
What are our shared goals thatwe all have for like our our um
country and our communitiesaround us, right?
Um, so I think for me, I had togo back and kind of like very

(01:00:53):
much clarify for myself uh whatI think about things.
Um and actually I feel thatprocess actually makes me feel a
lot more optimistic.
Uh, because I think when I lookaround, I kind of see most quote
unquote normal people, right?
Like most of us, uh we have verysimilar goals.

(01:01:13):
We have very similar things thatwe want out of life, right?
Like, and most of us don'treally need that much.
Uh, so I think it's just amatter of sort of like I think I
see a lot more problems withideas and sort of the narratives
that we tell ourselves about ourlives and life in general,
right?
Where we we create these reallybig divisions on things, I don't

(01:01:35):
think matter as much as we makethem out to be.
Um and I kind of observe thatlike I think like you can do
this in meditation, you can doall really just like it's it's
very straightforward.
But like if you look insideyourself, your biology, even
like the way your personalityfeels, like I'm like it's
relationship the whole waythrough.
Like my body is a network ofrelationships, even the way I uh

(01:01:58):
feel towards myself is a networkof relationships.
Um, where I think if weprioritize right relationships
between each other, which likereally a lot of our systems are
trying to serve, we kind of canget past this thing of just
trying to be right in like myteam winning and my uh thought
and idea being like the rightthing, right?

(01:02:20):
And people get really caught upin their way of thinking about
things being the right thing,and they just totally run over
each other with that.
And it's like I think that's outof basis.
Like, I think that's what's outof whack is like we're working
together, like let's worktogether, not be not be clashing
into each other.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:39):
Yeah, I think I mean at the end at the end of the
day, I think we are so much moresimilar than we are different,
and I hate that people forgetthat.
It drives me nuts.
Um yeah, I I don't I've actuallynever really gone political on
the podcast, and I probablynever will, but like I'll keep
it, I will keep it at that.
Like, I'm very much one of thosepeople that like I'm just like,
dude, why can't we all just getalong, man?

(01:03:00):
Why we gotta why's everybodygonna hate everybody?
Um, all right.
So on the on to continue ourleft turn, dude, what's your
take on AI?

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:08):
Oh, on AI.
Interesting.
Um gosh.
I think for one, I think justlike kind of the way that we're
going about AI and the way likeAI is so interesting in that
like you interact with it in somany different ways.
Um I think it's like for one,just showing the recklessness of

(01:03:29):
human nature, right?
And the humans at large, like wecannot help ourselves sometimes.
We're like, this may be to ourdoom, but let's go for it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:39):
Yeah, yeah.
Off the cliff.
We're going off the cliff.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:43):
It's crazy.
But again, the I I think thething that I I really don't like
about AI right now is just thelike incessant marketing of it.
Again, it's like this kind ofthing of like you just get as a
human in our culture these days,it's like you get pounded in the
head over and over with thismarketing stuff.
Like, you need to use AI foreverything.

(01:04:04):
And certainly, like there'sthere's ways in which it's
helpful, but then there's allsorts of like problems too.
Like, I think um it takes a lotof clean water to like cool
those systems.
So there's like issues withwater supply, there's like huge
consumption of energy, and thenit's like that doesn't get
connected, where it's like useAI, but also be aware of like

(01:04:25):
what the cost is.
And I think like as humans, alot of times one of the things,
or at least like say for modernhumans, I think one of the major
issues is like a lot of timesthe harm of like what we do is
disconnected from us, right?
Like, I think factory farmingbeing like a very easy to grasp
one, right?
It's like you just pick up themeat uh from the grocery store

(01:04:49):
and it's all nicely packaged upfor you to go, you know, whip
out whatever dish you're tryingto make.
But like you have so dis muchdisconnect from the animal that
that was, right?
That like it doesn't even seemlike an animal anymore.
Um, so I think across the board,it's like when we start to have
all these disconnects from theactual harm, uh, I think it's

(01:05:10):
like we just start to liveinauthentic lives.
And I think it's it's becomesmore and more difficult to
actually live authentically whenyou don't directly see the harm
that gets caused.
And like certain like in theWest, I think like the the hard
truth is I think we all probablyuse more resources than we
really should.

(01:05:30):
Uh it's like it's notsustainable.
Uh it's not sustainable foreverybody to pursue the sort of
lifestyles that we pursue.
So, you know, I kind of love umlike I kind of fell in love with
Buddhism, uh kind of coming outof Christianity and wanting to
uh expand my perspective a lotmore.
And uh I think there's just likea strong notion there of kind of

(01:05:52):
like take only what you need,uh, which is so like counter to
like Western culture where we'rekind of like consume as much as
you can afford, right?

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:01):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:02):
Uh which is such a different way of viewing like us
as humans, of like, is it okayto take more than you actually
need?
Like, is that morally justified?
And I think we have all thesedebates about morality, say,
like, um, with all sorts ofissues, but it's like there's a
sort of morality that I think weall avoid to a certain extent

(01:06:24):
because we're all a little bitfallible, at least in like more
well-to-do places.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:28):
I mean, dude, everything like our cell phones,
literally the computer thatwe're recording off of this,
like the amount of resourcesthat went into that.
Like you could just go spend1500 bucks at the store and just
buy it, but you have people haveno idea the amount of resources
that go into making somethinglike that.
And I do, I I do agree.
We are in a weird world, likewhere and I think it is very
much a Western culture thing.

(01:06:50):
I think it's also traditionallylike more so an American thing,
too, where like we get intocool, we're going deep here.
Um it's just it's like, I don'tknow.
And I have a lot of so dude, Ium I work in corporate finance
for my day job, and everythingis shareholder value, and
everything is let's make moremoney and more and more and

(01:07:11):
more, and let's like I I thinkwe get to the point where we
just like forget about thepeople aspect of it.
And it'd be just because it'slike so how can we just like in
um I don't know, I'm kind of allover the place here, but I have
a lot of friends that work inlike investment banking and
corporate finance and and inthese like very well-paying
jobs.
And it's like, well, dude, whenis enough enough?

(01:07:31):
Like if you could feed yourfamily and really just live a
very fulfilling, happy, healthylife, like you don't need the
Mercedes, like you don't needyou know, the bigger car, the
better house, the better watch,the better this, the better
that.
And we just get so caught up inthat it's a very uniquely human
problem and a very uniquely Idon't know, just a unique
problem that I just see more andmore.
Um and I just don't know wherewe go from here with it.

(01:07:54):
It it's it I grapple with itvery much as a person because I
just hate the keeping up withthe Jones shit because it it
just doesn't go anywhere otherthan just more consumption, you
know.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:05):
Yeah.
Well, it's it's funny because umI love actually Ecclesiastes in
the Bible where like KingSolomon's talking about like
vanity, vanity, it's all vanity,it's all just man chasing the
wind, trying to gain advantageover fellow man.
And it's like we've been in thatcycle forever.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:25):
Right?

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:25):
Where just where it just turns into like a game
where like you're just trying toget to the top of the hierarchy,
you want your bank account tohave a certain amount of dollars
in it, right?
Where like you can start to youcan start to gamify life where
it's actually you're againdisconnected from it, but
there's real human sufferingaround you that's just getting

(01:08:45):
totally ignored.
Um, and that's where I thinklike I I think like why I think
there's a certain amount ofpeople I think wanting to return
to like religion and sort ofthese sort of foundations where
um there's like a real rootedhistory in them, right?
Um, where like I think there isa real wisdom to that.
And I think we do kind of runinto, I mean, you see this with

(01:09:07):
athletes as well, where it'slike a lot of athletes when they
actually achieve their reallybig goals they've been training
for forever, they go throughthis huge low afterwards where
you're like, oh, that was kindof unsatisfying.
And I and I think that'srightfully so, because it's kind
of like back to the thing oflike everything's relationship.
So if you're actually operatingin a way that even if you're

(01:09:29):
disconnected from it, I thinkthere's sort of an authentic
knowing within us that knowswhen we're kind of operating in
a way that's not it's just notthe best way we could be
operating.
And like I I do always come backto like sort of just um the
Bible having a lot of greatthings, especially like the
teachings of Jesus, where it'slike that thing of love thy

(01:09:50):
neighbor as thyself, right?
The golden rule, do unto othersas do unto others as you want,
done unto you.
It's like to me, that's like thehigh goal, where it's like uh if
you've experienced like reallydeep love with somebody, to me,
that's like the cessation or thecessation of that like that
incessant pursuing of things,where it's like that's where I

(01:10:12):
feel truly satisfied.
So like I think the times wherewe're operating more
authentically out of that, oflike taking care of each other,
if you're getting satisfactionfrom uh increasing somebody
else's well-being, like it's somuch more deeply satisfying than
just watching your own wealthaccumulate, right?
Because there's there's a pointat which, like, I think there

(01:10:33):
was a documentary I watched along time ago called Happiness.
And they'd done some study thatshowed that like up to a certain
point, like how much money youmake does affect your happiness
because you're taking care ofyour needs, right?
Now you're not as stressed.
Um, but then there's a pointwhere it kind of maxes out and
it doesn't really increase yourhappiness that much.
But imagine if every person pastthat point started getting their

(01:10:56):
satisfaction out of giving toeach other and helping see
somebody else like come up intothe world or move out of poverty
or something.
Like, I think that we just don'tknow.
And I think most things comefrom like a lack of knowingness
or lack of lack of experiencingsomething, where I think if you
know the satisfaction of doingthat, I think it could just
become incredibly addictivewhere like people who have a lot

(01:11:17):
of money get addicted to likehelping people with it.
Um that's where again I kind ofI kind of see a world in which
like that could be possiblebecause I think that is the
truth.
Like I think the truth is thatis the most satisfying thing,
but marketing, marketing andthings, it's like we kind of
have this consumerism thing thatneeds to push us towards uh

(01:11:39):
earning and buying and beingpart of like the economy more so
than being you know a fellowhuman to somebody.
Um, but I think the great thingtoo though is like uh and maybe
where I see things couldpotentially go very well is like
in a free market economy, likethe buyer does hold the power.
So like we are supporting uhsort of these like fractures in

(01:12:04):
the system that push money intolike funnel money into these
like groups that maybe are notdoing good things, but we are
supporting them.
We are choosing to spend ourmoney where we choose to spend
it.
Uh so I think like I think why Ikind of like the philosophy of
things is like if you can likethe mind can change on a dime,
right?
Like once your mind changes, andI think you can get cultural

(01:12:25):
movements that change the mindof a lot of people where things
could shift very quickly in apositive direction.
I think that like there just hasto be some corrections of like
some of the ways in which,again, I kind of view it as like
humans getting a little bitmanipulated into doing things
that just serve more of aneconomic um outcome.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:45):
Yeah, no, I agree.
And I dude, I think you know,there's flashes of our sport
that I see, and I I get hope in,you know, even though I just
bash pretty much every consumerthat buys satisfies stuff.
I I I do see uh I see moreconscious consumers and more
conscious people um I thinkwithin our sport, and that does
give me a lot of hope.
Where I think people are verylike a great example, whether

(01:13:06):
you agree with it or not, orwhether whether anybody agrees
with it or not, is uh I thinkwhen UTMB signed DASIA, people
were pissed.
And they uh they had a lot ofconcerns about that, you know,
because it wasn't, you know,within uh I guess
environmentally friendly.
I totally agree.
It's a car.
That said, people voiced theiropinions over it and chose where

(01:13:30):
to spend their money and whereto put their money, and soon
Hoka became the sponsor.
Whether we're stoked about thator not, there was some change
that took place, whether good orbad.
I think that uh you can lookpoint to that or something like
that and say, well, you know,change is possible.
Um I don't know.
As far as in the big picture,though, I I don't know, man.
Like I I try to stay veryoptimistic.

(01:13:51):
I do worry a lot about AIthough.
Like I I as someone that worksin the corporate life and sees I
find it very uh hilarious in alot of ways where they
corporations tell you, oh well,we need to be agile and adopt
AI.
But it's like you're gonna adoptsomething that's gonna take
people's jobs.
Why are we getting excited overthis?
And then people don't have jobs,and what are they gonna do?
What are they gonna do?

(01:14:11):
You know?
So I I I ruffle with that.
Like that that that worries me,you know.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:17):
Yeah, well, I think it's it's like maybe one of the
main issues with AI is it'sfunny that it's they're not
funny.
I think the unfortunate thing isthat like we're kind of letting
the technology run its coursefirst, and then we're chasing it
with maybe some like um thingsthat we do socially to take care

(01:14:38):
of all the people who lose theirjobs, right?
Like um whether like someuniversal income becomes a thing
because there's less jobsavailable, whereas like we just
let the technology run out frontand do whatever it's doing, and
then we're picking upafterwards, right?
Which like maybe that's a littlebit backwards, and we need to
learn how to slow down a bit.
Um, because I'm with you, likeuh I got some ad from like some

(01:15:01):
Tony Robbins thing, and he'stalking about how what what an
issue like AI is, and then it'slike, but let me give you this
course on how you can use it andfire all your employees.
God.

SPEAKER_01 (01:15:13):
So bad, dude.

SPEAKER_02 (01:15:14):
Yeah, I think that I hate it when it's like you're
kind of like bringing up a thingand then you're jumping directly
and being a exactly a part ofthe problem.

SPEAKER_00 (01:15:23):
You're like you profit off of it, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Well well, the thing is too, isit's like I don't know.
If anything, I'm pro-human.
Like I I think humans uh I don'tknow, like I I don't think I'm
alone in this.
I think most people listening tothis will say the same thing.
Like people want in they want tochase something.
They want to, they want tothere's gotta be something that
gets you out of bed in themorning to go chase your dreams,

(01:15:45):
your goals, whatever it is.
And I think you know, a lot Ithink it's an unfortunate aspect
of America where people are sotied to their jobs in the sense
where like it becomes and that'sfine, like it becomes your your
thing, uh where you seek ummeaning from.
And I don't think I've neverthought that to be a healthy

(01:16:06):
thing, but I think what happenswhen that gets taken away and
you can't find another thing tofind your meaning, and you have
thousands and thousands andmillions of people that are
missing their meaning because arobot you know replaced them,
and it's like, well, what do wedo?
That's that's I see that's whatworries me the most.
I I find that to be quite uh ascary thing.

(01:16:28):
So I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 (01:16:30):
Yeah, well, I mean it's an interesting concept of
like um like a lot of I feellike what we get sold with any
sort of technologicaladvancement is like how it's
gonna make your life easier,right?
Or how it's gonna help you insome capacity.
Uh and then it sort of does, andit sort of doesn't.
And I think like maybe there's alittle bit of and and certainly
technology like can help in alot of ways, say like a watch

(01:16:53):
when you're out in the forest,like having your route on there
can save you from getting lost.
There's like obvious use cases.
Um, but I think in general, interms of like the minimizing the
amount of overall work and likesort of it stepping in and doing
things for us.
Uh sometimes as humans, I thinkit's actually kind of nice for
us to just have something to do,uh, even if it's not terribly

(01:17:17):
significant in any regard, likegoing out and just like raking
up the yard or something.
Sometimes it's nice to just beable to do that.
And I think I question a littlebit whether we want to get rid
of all the jobs and just havethis sort of vacancy for us to
try to figure out other thingsto do.
Um, it's like maybe there'ssomething nice about us having
the simple jobs to do, and wedon't want to just uh subsidize

(01:17:40):
those to a robot or something.

SPEAKER_00 (01:17:42):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's crazy.
The other thing too, like I Ifind it oh I I kind of almost
call it a fallacy where peoplereally believe that like it's uh
this is really gonna twist ofminds.
But like people really thinkthat like we're gonna get to the
point where just like peoplebecome in the country like
infinitely wealthy because AIyou know takes away all the jobs
and we're gonna have to dosomething with uh some sort of

(01:18:02):
universal basic income.
And maybe that is the truth, butthe only way that's gonna happen
is if people like get reallypissed because they have nothing
to do.
And it's like when and listen,like I I mean I could say this
first and foremost because Iwork in the corporate world, and
it's like when have you everseen like the wealth get
distributed down?
Like that never happens, um,unless people get pissed, you

(01:18:25):
know.
I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 (01:18:28):
Yeah, no, I I'm I'm very much with you, and I
thought about this recently ofum like we're still at a point
where I think you could say likethe collective masses have some
leverage, right?
There's still a need for humansto to have these certain roles
and do jobs and things, right?
Whereas like we're also now, Ithink the crazy thing is say

(01:18:49):
with something like AI, we'realso the thing supplying and
training it, the thing that'sgonna take our jobs, uh, and
then also take the need for us,right?
Like, I think that's a realdangerous thing when you go now,
those people who have most thecontrol over most of the
resources don't have a need forthe rest of us.

(01:19:10):
So, like, what leverage do wehave anymore?
Right.
So it's like I think that thatoutrage has to start coming up
while you are still needed.
If you just give it awayabsent-mindedly, which I think
there's a little bit of thatgoing on, um maybe bad results.
Yeah, I think it's definitelysomething to be aware of.
And I think, yeah, like thereis, yeah, I think it's something

(01:19:32):
we should all be thinking abouta bit, you know, like uh because
uh I was just talking to a buddythe other day, like um I I like
foundational truths or likethings that you can hold on
where you just make things verysimple, especially when the
world gets very complex and hardto navigate.
So I do love that sort ofconcept of the golden rule or
love thy neighbor as thyself,where there's an aspect of love

(01:19:55):
yourself there too, right?
And I think part of thatself-love is protection.
Um, and I think that that'swhere like the common person is
at these days, is like in someways, um we're unwittingly
having like that protection ofself-violated a little bit,
where it's like you kind of getall the marketing schemes and

(01:20:16):
these sort of mind manipulationsthat tell you to buy into things
that maybe you don't know theoutcomes of that, right?
It may not serve you in the longrun, but you're being told it's
going to.
Uh, and I think that like maybesome of the things that we're
getting, especially like um likethe millennial generation,
right?
Where you kind of get sold.
I think a lot of people like goto college and get this degree

(01:20:37):
and you're gonna end up with agood job.
And then it's like, nope.
Like maybe it panned out, ifpanned out for you, or maybe it
didn't.
So I think there is some notionI think that is good that's
coming up that I think umthere's a lot more questioning,
I think, happening of like, uh,I think I'm gonna be more
critical about the things I'mthe ideas I'm being sold because

(01:20:57):
they don't seem to always workout that way.
And I think that's the nicething about I mean, honestly,
like truth, I feel like hasbecome a hard thing to get where
I think there's a sort ofpurpose there where you have to
get a lot more critical whentruth gets harder to access.
And I think it makes us a littlebit more engaged with that
pursuit.
Uh, which again, to take anoptimistic output, I think it's

(01:21:19):
gonna be helpful in the long runbecause I think we're I think
that us and younger generationsare a little bit more forced
into being engaged with likethat pursuing of of what is
actually true.

SPEAKER_00 (01:21:32):
Yeah.
Dude, I I feel bad I'm taking upso much of your time.
I just you're good.
You're you're a philosopher,dude.
I didn't Francesco did not tellme about this.

SPEAKER_02 (01:21:41):
Um Teddy Tonelli was not hitting me with these
questions, dude.
We were just talking abouthaptites and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 (01:21:47):
That's true.
That's true.
Uh as as someone that consumesand uses social media, what is
your take on it?

SPEAKER_02 (01:21:55):
Oh gosh.
I have to force myself to dosocial media.
Like, I still haven't post aboutKodiak, and I'm like, I need to
I need to engage there.
But it well, it's such a um Ithink it's such a paradox
because I think it can be such auseful thing, again, like when
you're trying to unite a lot ofjust very normal people, like
there is that democratization ofbeing able to put out media

(01:22:18):
yourself and your opinion outinto the world.
And I think that can be a verygood thing, um, where it gives
us some amount of like abilityto rally together.
Uh I mean the problem is alsothen then like the platform is
controlled by like a corporateentity.
So it's a weird, I don't know,it's a weird intermixing in that

(01:22:40):
regard.
Um, I think that my my thing islike uh I get very concerned,
and this sort of I feel like thepredecessor to AI is just like
algorithms and how people getsiloed by algorithms, where like
your worldview gets moved sosmall because it's kind of
funneling you into things thatwill you'll engage with.

(01:23:00):
So your worldview can so easilyget smaller and smaller and
smaller as opposed to likegetting wider and more um
inclusive.
Uh so I see that being a majorissue, just in that like people
kind of have their own curatedmedia being presented to them.
So like just people can get sodivided in that front because
they're just seeing differentinformation.

(01:23:22):
Like we're just now interactingwith a totally different part of
the world, seemingly, but justlike how our media is getting
curated to us.

SPEAKER_00 (01:23:31):
Yeah, it's I don't know.
I I struggle with social mediain the sense where I I I I find
it more a net negative anymorethan a net positive.
And like you said, a lot of it'secho chambers, people getting
stuck and only getting theirideas reinforced, which I think
is very dangerous when you knowyou're constantly told you're

(01:23:52):
right and you're getting thelook at the things that you want
to view.
I just don't see that aspositive.
Um but even more so, I don'tknow.
I think in sport, I guess it'salso used as a marketing tool.
And I guess it it's a great oneif you're a brand.
But I I wonder as far as theathlete goes, like that it's
almost like a social contract,right?
Where like you want to put whatyou can out into the world and

(01:24:13):
share as much as you can, andthat can be a positive.
But also it's it's still a toolused to sell you things.
So it gets, I don't know.
For me, it it's always been verysquirrely, you know.

SPEAKER_02 (01:24:25):
Yeah, I I I think what I don't like is the way
that um what's happening onsocial media then like bleeds
into the real world.
Where like for me, I think partof my resistance, like sometimes
I just want to go for a run andI don't want to have to stop and
take a picture and a video ofsomething and set up a little
shot in the middle of it.

(01:24:45):
Like I just want to go for myrun and enjoy that because I
really enjoy that process,right?
Of just going out and being inthe forest.
And there's a disruption of it,there's a little compromise that
happens there.
Um and then yeah, that yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:25:00):
Sorry, on that thought, no, no, no.
The the the best example I alsowant to make of social new media
just not being real is like, soyou'll take an example like an
athlete like yourself, who Iwould argue on your best day is
one of the best athletes inShort Trail, right?
But like you have asignificantly less of a
following than some influencerdude that is followed by a
gazillion people.

(01:25:20):
Someone's gonna look to thatperson and think that that's one
of the best people in the sport.
They have no idea that youexist, which is so weird to me.
Where it's like you have to lookoutside and see like who like
that just goes to show likewhat's on the internet is not
real compared to what you'reactually seeing results in in in
the real world, you know.

SPEAKER_02 (01:25:42):
Yeah, yeah, totally.
I it well, it's such aninteresting thing in terms of
um, and maybe it's a little bitof like as humans, we tend to be
lazy, right?
So it's like if something's ifsomeone's presented to me as
like a knowledgeable person atrunning, I'm gonna kind of tend
to probably just believe that ifI don't have like a a uh
preceding knowledge that woulddisagree with it, right?

(01:26:04):
So like if you're getting intoanything new, you don't really
know who people are, right?
So if someone says, like, I knowsomething, they present
themselves confidently to you,you're probably gonna accept
that unless you're like takingyour due diligence to look into
it.
But again, I think as humans wetend to be more lazy.
So if an algorithm popssomething up because it's a
popular thing, uh, like I kindof can't blame people for just

(01:26:25):
taking that content that justgot delivered to them, right?
Um, but it is funny, I think,like when you are interacting
with the real world of it.
And a guy that I always thinkabout who's a he's a he's a nice
guy, uh the vegan cyclist onYouTube.
Um very popular, very, verypopular channel.

(01:26:47):
Um like he's I don't know ifhe's cated up now, but like so
cycling goes like uh cat five tocat one.
They may have changed it since Iwas racing.
Um but like you have to gothrough this whole process of
getting upping your categoriesuntil you're one, which is like
pretty much racing with thepros.
Um, but he's like a cat two guy,right?

(01:27:07):
Like and sort of like a halfwaydecent one, but he's like one of
the most popular bike people onYouTube that would be a lot of
people's main contact for anysort of bicycle knowledge.
And I'm like, he's a verymediocre racer.
Like he's not, you know, it'slike for me, I think for
somebody who comes from likehigh performance sport, I'm
like, I I know that it looksnice, it sounds nice, like it's

(01:27:31):
like because you do the videostuff well, people think that
that justifies you being like agood resource for the other
thing.
And a lot of times those areactually contrary, where like
the best people at doing videosare oftentimes not the people
who have the most knowledgebecause they're actually fully
engaged with uh the sportitself.
So it is funny, I think, likewhen you kind of see behind that
veil a little bit of like it's alot different than I think how

(01:27:54):
things get presented.
And I think that's what maybebothers me about social media
and sort of like uh like what dothey call that?
Um it's like a tension economyor something, where it's like
sort of sort of this notion thatlike uh you get yeah, you get a
lot of value about justpresenting yourself in certain

(01:28:15):
ways.
Like, and then a lot of timesthere is a little bit of and not
always, but sometimes there's agap in terms of like the
authentic knowledge that backsthat up, right?
Like if you can just put a goodpresentation now, that's all
that matters.
And I think people just get sotwisted up by things, especially
like I mean, not just in sports,but it's like the whole like

(01:28:38):
health and wellness industry isjust like riddled with crazy
ideas.

SPEAKER_00 (01:28:43):
Charlatans, yeah, yeah, yeah.
People and yeah, a lot of thesepeople have no idea what they're
talking about.
I mean, dude, the best thing Ican I put it towards is like a
laugh is because I'll see someinfluencer that just re ran like
Leadville.
And I'm like, that's awesome.
Like you just ran the Leadville100 mile, that's amazing, great
accomplishment.
And they're like talking aboutthis like they really know what

(01:29:03):
they're talking about, kind ofstuff.
And like I'll look at thisperson and like look at their
followers.
I'm like, all right, none of thepeople that I like that are
really in the know in the sportactually follow this person.
It's 100% of outside peopleoutside of I guess our sphere
follow this.
So it's like, okay, that's theprojection of our sport that's
being projected out to theworld, but it's not really the

(01:29:26):
actual people that are like thatare in the sport actually follow
this person.
So I find that to be veryinteresting as well.
It's very weird.
Um social media is a verystrange thing.
I I I don't think I'll everunderstand it, and I I really
don't think I want to, actually.

SPEAKER_02 (01:29:41):
No, it is, yeah, yeah.
I think it I think it is,especially just yeah, and those
interactions with like um yeah,something like a sport, the
sporting world, and how thoseall that stuff ends up
interacting down the line,right?
Like how you how you end upnavigating the sport from a
business standpoint.
Trying to do it full on, like itdefinitely looks a lot

(01:30:02):
different.
And then it's like there's justa lot of different ways in which
um you know, it's like I feellike companies, it's like you
would sponsor really goodathletes because that kind of
gets your brand out there,right?
And it kind of gets youexposure, whether that be like
in newspapers or like on TV orsomething, if you're sponsoring
like somebody who's in theOlympics or whatnot.

(01:30:23):
Uh but now it's like there's somany avenues where uh and it's
kind of nice, I think, for likegrowing companies to be able to
do things a little bit faster,but like you can just send
product to 30 different amateurpeople who just have a good
community outreach, right?
Uh where it doesn't cost youalmost anything and now you get

(01:30:43):
exposure for very little.
Uh and like I think whetherthat's a good thing or not, like
it is kind of up in the air.
Um, because I do think like itcan be a detriment to maybe uh
the professional side of thesport that's trying to make a
living off of it.
Um, where it yeah, presentsother avenues for companies to
not have to do that.

(01:31:04):
Uh and so yeah, it's like forbetter or worse, it's like I
don't I don't really knowbecause it is nice to have like
more amateur engagement um wherethere's opportunities.
But it's crazy to me with socialmedia though, what people will
do for a little product or forlike uh Oh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:31:19):
Free TV.

SPEAKER_02 (01:31:19):
Yeah, people like yeah, yeah, they'll sell so much
for so little.
And so it's like I mean it's aprocess with like um like when
it was when there was lessintegration of social media,
like it was more of like aproblem, say, with just in
professional sports, where it'slike if you take a crappy um
contract, like that kind ofhurts the professionalism of a

(01:31:41):
sport as a whole, right?
Like you get a bunch of peopleselling themselves for very
little, that devalues everybodya little bit.
Um, so that process now is juststretched out across like the
whole community of runners,where now it's like not even
just professionals, it justeverybody can sell themselves
for nothing.
Uh and that ends up costingsomebody else, right?
Where it's like uh the demandgoes goes down.

SPEAKER_00 (01:32:05):
And for what?
Like for a brand affiliation, soyou're like in the it crowd?
Like that that's that's the onethat makes me laugh.
You know, I don't know.
That's I mean, do you we coulddo a whole nother that's a whole
nother episode right there.
Uh especially on the oh my god,I just had Nick Nick Cornell on
who's a um uh he's an agent inthe store, and like we were
talking about that, just likethe like pay.

(01:32:27):
And then because like uh whatwas it?
Uh Kelly Newland went on Finn'spodcast and said, you know,
there were some runners makinghalf a million dollars plus a
year, and and that created likea big thing, and you know, and
it makes you wonder like what isthe wealth spread of of the
store?
And it's it's I guess it'spretty wide, which is kind of
crazy.
Um yeah, I don't know.
It's a crazy, crazy thing.

SPEAKER_02 (01:32:49):
So yeah, yeah.
I mean, yeah, I can't speak alltoo well to it, but yeah, I I
would say that though.
It's like um Yeah, well, I Ithink it's funny, it's uh to me
another like human thing wherelike we we're funny in the way
that we evaluate things, andit's a little bit more
straightforward with a sportwhere like you can sort of say

(01:33:10):
like this performance is worththis amount or whatnot.
But just in general, with likehow humans are, we tend to it's
like if somebody thinkssomething is shiny and good,
like everybody else will glomonto it.
We're like, oh, this personstarts to get some traction.
All of a sudden everybody's allabout that person, and it's like
it's funny how it won't justspread out more evenly

(01:33:32):
dispersed, where it's like um,like my valuation is based on
whether other people think thisis valuable or not.
Uh, and I think that happenswith athletes a lot.
And like, I mean, I think it'sjust kind of the nature of fame,
uh, where it has this weirdvortexing quality to it.
It does.
It does.

SPEAKER_00 (01:33:50):
Well, dude, I think we're I'm gonna I I dude, this
is really crazy.
My my thing just let me knowyour battery has less than 20%.
So I'm gonna that is wild.
Um, I'm gonna let you uh let yougo on that one.
Dude, we gotta do another onesometime in the future because
there's a lot of things I didn'task you.
I feel like we could talk forhours.
So I I want to say thank you somuch for coming on the podcast.
It's a great conversation.

(01:34:10):
Um definitely will not be thelast one if you're if you're
more than willing to come talkphilosophy with me.
Um I really appreciate you and Iappreciate your time.

SPEAKER_02 (01:34:18):
Thanks, James.
No, I appreciate it.
Yeah, dude.
And I I love diving in deep too.
So we'll uh we'll circle backwhen AI starts to take over the
world, I think.

SPEAKER_00 (01:34:26):
There you go.
There you go.
That'll be part part two.
Thanks, Chad.

SPEAKER_02 (01:34:31):
All right, thanks, James.

SPEAKER_00 (01:34:33):
Well, what'd you guys think?
Oh man, I want to thank Chad somuch for coming on the pod.
Guys, I'm really sorry aboutsome of the audio quality.
I uh just switched over toRiverside, and I don't know what
is going on with my mic, but itkeeps clipping when I'm in the
middle of these shows, and Idon't know that it's happening
while I'm recording.
So, yeah, if anyone is likeaudio engineer that wants to

(01:34:53):
reach out to me, might know athing or two about this that
maybe AI or Google, uh well,don't ask AI, uh, but maybe
Google might know or someone, Idon't know.
Um, moving on.
I want to say thank you guys somuch for listening.
Uh, I'm sure Chad appreciates itas well.
The best way you can find Chadand support him, give him a
follow on Instagram or Strava.
You can find him on Instagram atChad4life.

(01:35:14):
That's right, Chad for Life.
Um, and yeah, and uh give him afollow.
Let him know what you thoughtabout the episode.
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If you are enjoying the videoepisodes on YouTube, please

(01:35:36):
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(01:35:58):
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(01:36:20):
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#137 - Chad Hall

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