#148 - Mathias Eichler, RD Beast of Big Creek - The Steep Stuff Podcast

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast.
I'm your host, James L'Oreal.
And today I'm so excited towelcome Matthias Eichler to the
show.
Matthias is a lot of things inour sport.
He is involved with the TrailRunning Film Festival.
He is a race director.
He is a podcast host.
Most notably, the podcast hostof the single track electric

(00:21):
cable car show.
And most recently, um, he is nowthe race director of the only
World Skyrunning Series race inthe United States of America,
uh, the Beast of Big Creek.
So we had to hear from Matias.
We brought him on the show to uhhave a conversation all about
the race.
We talked and got into um prettydeeply into the race itself, um,

(00:46):
kind of the statistics on it,the history of the race itself,
talked about the area and thelocation, how to get out there.
Um, we got into what it takes tobring a skyrunning race to the
United States.
As we all know, uh there's beenquite a significant layoff since
2019, and Matias was the firstone uh to bring one back, which
is pretty exciting.

(01:07):
Um we talked about the timing ofthat, we talked about what it
was like getting courses or acourse ISF certified, which is
the International Skyrunning umuh group.
And uh yeah, this was a fun one.
I really want to thank Matiasfor coming on the show as a
podcast host as well.
I had to uh pick his brain onthe sport and uh talk about the
fandom.

(01:27):
Uh of course, I always want tohear about what we can do to
build more fandom in the in ourgreat sport of short trail.
Um, and yeah, this was a goodone.
So without further ado, I hopeyou guys enjoy this one.
Matthias Eichler.

(02:54):
Yeah, yeah, I'm excited to havehad this conversation, or I'm
excited to finally do thisconversation.
Sorry for the whirlwind it'sbeen the last couple days, but
I'm glad we were able to putthis together and talk sky
running in the United States andjust uh kind of just how the
monument uh monumental kind ofthat is for the sport, kind of
uh getting something on theworld scene since uh playing
that.

SPEAKER_01 (03:14):
Yes, yes.
Lots of background work, lots ofbehind the scenes conversations,
and I think hitting it right atthe perfect moment in time when
people are looking for somethinglike that.

SPEAKER_02 (03:28):
Yes, yes.
Well, as we get started, maybeuh talk about your background,
talk about your podcast that youyou uh manage, talk about talk
about what you do as a racedirector.
Maybe give the audience yourbackground.

SPEAKER_01 (03:40):
Oh man, how how long you should podcast usually
because this might take a while.
I'm I'm kidding.
I yeah.
I'm originally from Germany.
I've lived here now longer inthe US on the West Coast than I
have in Germany, if I reallythink about it.
Um so yeah, I've been over heremy most of my adult life.

(04:03):
I used to have a design shop,then joined this with another
tech company while I was workingwith them.
I sort of got a sense that theyweren't really growing and
moving in the way that I wantedto.
So I started dabbling in mypassion, which is trying to work
in the outdoor industry again,and um wanted to connect with

(04:24):
real people, not just sellenterprise software type
scenario.
And so um started somethingcalled the outdoor society.
We sought calendars and roadtrip reports and stuff.
That led to me discovering trailrunning, that led to us starting
a podcast called Single Track,way, way, way, way before the

(04:45):
other single track podcaststarted.
And then I um th throughout allof that I got into race
directing, wanted to bring trailraces away from the super hard
to get to gnarly trailheads thatrequire you four by four to
drive in the middle of the woodstype deal.

(05:06):
And so I started some reallyaccessible trail races, which
um, you know, the combination ofbeing me knowing how to build
websites and sort of promote myown events got me in contact
with the trailrunning filmfestival, started working for
them, and now sort of I'mwearing all these hats.
I do a podcast, I am a racedirector, I um run the

(05:29):
trailrunning film festival, andso sometimes it's really hard
for me to sort of introducemyself.
But as part of my trail running,I ran way back when, in like
2016 or so, I ran Beast of BigCreek, which is a trail race on
one of my favorite mountains,sort of our home mountain here
in the Pacific Northwest Olympiaarea where I'm from, Mount

(05:52):
Eleanor.
Totally loved the race, got toknow the race director, and um
he retired and sort of waswanting to just let the race go
away.
And uh back when people werestill on Facebook, I got a note
on Facebook, and somebody wassaying, dude, you gotta um jump

(06:12):
in and take over Beast of BigCreek that race because you know
how it is with these kind ofraces, getting the permit with
the National Forest Service iskey, and being able to um have
that continuation of thatrelationship is super super
important in order to just gethave the most smoothest

(06:34):
transition.
So I asked them if I could takeit over.
I was able to get the permit,and so I've been running Beast
of Big Creek now for four years,and here we are, four years
later, and it's uh um uh theonly North American race on the
Skyrunner World Series for 2026.
Sorry, that was long-winded.

SPEAKER_02 (06:53):
No, no, no, amazing, amazing.
I uh first of all, uh first andforemost, I'm so excited that we
finally have a world skyrunnerrace back in the States for the
first time in a long time.
Can you talk about how the Imean, I feel like Beast
obviously was an I is an ISFcertified course.
Talk about how it it came to bethat this was the selected race.

SPEAKER_01 (07:16):
Whew, okay.
So here's another endlessly longmonologue.
Um so one thing that was fun andchallenging with Beast of Big
Creek when I took it over wasthat the race director very much
ran it as a fun community run.
There was barely an aid station,some water and some gel sort of

(07:37):
in the middle of the trailhead.
Um and you know, entry fees for25 bucks.
And when I took it over, I waslike, you know, I need to find a
way of turning this into a realrace.
But I can't do that overnight.
I can't just like, you know,quadruple the entry fee and
stuff.
Because at that point nobodyknew what this race was like.

(07:58):
And what was the interestingjuxtaposition that while it was
really run as these likegrassroots community event, sort
of born out of a cross-countrycoach in the area, sort of um
having his kids out running theevent type deal, um, they
promoted they back then.
I dug through the old Facebookpages that they had up when I

(08:20):
was looking for results, and Ifound that way back then they
were already sharing clips ofSagama and Sierra Sonale with
this idea of this is a realmountain race.
Beast of Big Creek haseverything that it needs, um,
other than a you know a mountainresort village in at a start and

(08:42):
finish line.
But essentially has everythingto make it a real hard sky race,
mountain race, right?
And so I was really inspired bythis.
And as I was trying to figureout how do you uh market an
event that on one side has beenaround for 12 years at that
point, but on the other side isnot really grown beyond uh
regional recognition.

(09:03):
I looked at differentassociations and partnerships
and realized that I could getthe certified course
designation.
And the certified coursedesignation with the Sky uh
International SkyrunnerFederation is an interesting
thing because that's notsomething you can just buy
yourself into if you're anyrace.
You really have to qualify interms of terrain and steepness

(09:27):
and elevation and altitude andall of these things combined.
And once I sort of plucked myinformation in and realized that
I wasn't just applying to join,you know, like a UTMB index
race, which pretty much anybodycan be if it's fits a certain
distance, right?
That I could get this certifiedlabel which would make it really

(09:49):
special.
I was super stoked on it and youknow went all in on it.

SPEAKER_02 (09:54):
I mean that's amazing.
Can you can you go into I wantto peel back the details?
And I mean, I don't want to likeyou don't have to tell costs,
but I want to hear like all therigmarole of because that's the
thing.
From all I know, and I'm gonnabe honest with you, I'm pretty
novice in this, just starting tofigure out who the players are,
still figuring out how to underyou know understand uh really

(10:15):
the relationship between theWorld Skyrunner Series and the
ISF and things like that.
But with US uh with the WorldSkyrunner Series really leaving
the United States in 2019, wehad obviously USA Skyrunning,
um, and there was kind of a uhor sky USA Sky Running series,
if you will, up until 2019.
With that all kind of going awayat that time, what was the the

(10:37):
process like to try and uh likewas it immensely costly to try
to get the course certified?
Did you have to reach out to theISF and try to understand uh
what they want out of yourcourse?
Or what what kind of hoops didyou have?
I'm just trying to understandthe hoops you had to jump
through together.

SPEAKER_01 (10:52):
You know, uh skyrunning is a European sport
born out of a European mindsetof how these certifications
work, how the licensing works,and um I I believe, and this is
I wasn't really in the sport, soI'm this is like you know,

(11:13):
second, third hand.
But I believe one of the reasonswhy it failed in the US is
because of sort of a lack ofunderstanding of how these uh uh
trail races are organized in theUS.
Meaning in what you have inEurope is you have a mountain
valley somewhere in the Alps orin the Pyrenees, and um they

(11:34):
have hundreds, thousands ofhotel beds and restaurant um
seats that need to fillincreasingly with climate
change.
Every uh town needs to be afour-season resort and can't
just survive off of a couple skilifts in the wintertime.
And so there is a tourism agencythat likes to have these events

(11:59):
in town, and they have tens ofthousands of euros at their
disposal because theiranticipation is that they're
gonna fill you know hundreds,thousands of hotel beds for a
weekend in the summer whenusually you wouldn't get that
many people coming to town,other than maybe for some summer
hiking or mountain biking orsomething, right?
And so I think that's themindset on which um the

(12:23):
organization is sort of hasapproached global expansion,
both on the federation side andon um the Skyrunner World
Series, which is essentially alicensed product that is owned
by a for-profit corporation thatessentially just tries to make
money off of it.
International SkyrunningFederation is a federation,

(12:43):
non-profit essentially, right?
That just owns the um the labeland tries to be a shepherd of
the idea of the sport, right?
And um, but they themselvesdon't put on the world series,
world series owned by uh anorgan a group called Skyman and
out of Switzerland.
And so um, so what I think thereason what fail why it failed

(13:06):
initially in 2019 was the factthat um this European mindset of
hey, if you want to join ourseries, you have to pay
thousands of dollars becauseclearly your local tourism board
can afford these thousands ofdollars because look at all the
people that we're bringing intown and people people coming on
summer vacation, bringing theirfamilies, and look at all this

(13:26):
activity.
I mean, if you've been in UTMB,then you know why and how that
were and been um Chamonix duringUTMB week, then you know why
this works and how this works,right?
I mean Chamonix makes I don'tknow millions of dollars from uh
this event every week, right?
And so that's that's theconcept, and that's I think why
it failed.
And then when I reached out, itprobably I was a stroke of luck.

(13:51):
They had sort of realized they'dthey had completely lost North
America with these sort ofexpectations completely adjusted
everything that they were theway they were doing it, and all
of a sudden getting a certifiedcourse was very cheap.
It was absolutely I mean, asidefrom getting it on paper, right,
where you essentially have toput your GPS coordinates in and

(14:14):
make sure that you know they mayadjust, make sure that the grade
is steep enough and has theright kind of thing.
And uh, you know, Peace of BigCreek barely scrapes in because
I'm on the West Coast, I startat sea level, right?
I don't go up very high, there'sno glacial travel, there is no
big rope courses, which you seein some of the big sky race

(14:34):
courses.
So I I got in and got lucky thatthey just sort of reset their
thing, and then I stuck with itbecause it was worth it for me
to have that label anddesignation.

SPEAKER_02 (14:45):
So cool.
I I mean it's super exciting,and uh, I mean the course is
absolutely stunning from uh andthere hasn't been too many
pictures like circulatingaround, but I feel like there
has been enough of them to buildsome serious hype.
Um in fact, the originalgentleman that started it, his
son is a follower of the podcastand an athlete in the sport, and
he had sent me some pictures ofthe course and spoke about it,

(15:07):
and uh had nothing but amazingthings to say.
So it it's uh I I just keepcoming back to the stoke is
high.
I do want to go back in time alittle bit.
I'm curious about this to toaddress uh I feel like the thing
with skyrunning in uh in theUnited States and what Ryan
Kerrigan continues to send inemails to me and is a lot of
education.

(15:27):
I feel like the constantconversation is education, a
lack of education.
And I think it's gonna take alot because as we I feel like as
the as Golden Trail seriescontinues to grow and develop, I
feel like all the talent goes tothe Golden Trail series coming
out of the United States.
So if there's gonna be somethingto compete, which would be the
World Skyrunner series, and uhand has competed in years, like

(15:50):
I feel like 2023 was verycompetitive, 2024 a little bit
as well, um, when Merrill kindof came under the scene.
But I feel like the educationaspect and having more
conversations around thetechnicality of the courses and
and that it's somethingdifferent and offers something
more unique than, say, GoldenTrail that's more of a
cross-country style race.
Um, I think that gets more to uhthe meat and bones of providing

(16:11):
an alternative than just goingto Golden Trail, if you will.

SPEAKER_01 (16:15):
Well, I think this is the interesting other side of
the story, right?
I've sort of spoken a lot abouthow Europeans see the sport and
how they sort of fail to accountfor the way sports trail running
is sort of set up in the US,right?
Let's look at this other side.
You've got races in the US thatum, by and large, from a

(16:37):
historical point of view, comeout of this concept of trail
means ultra means 100 miles.
Everybody has that mindset ofyou gotta sort of anchor your
event around a hundred miledistance, around a 50 mile
distance, around a 50k distance,right?
In fact, I've got race directorscoming to me before this

(17:01):
announcement, and they said, um,what can you do to beast in
order to make it a 25k?
And then could you run a doubleso it's a 50k?
Then it would be a real trailrace, right?
And so I think that there's Iknow I know I'm like, well, the
only thing the the mountain topsout, I'm running to the summit.

(17:21):
So the only way I could sort ofadd mileage is arbitrarily sort
of add flat stuff on the road,which could completely defeat
the purpose, right?
So anyway, but I think it speaksto the mindset, right?
That if you run trail, you runultra, and you go long, and um,
so that's one side to it, andthen the permitting side is just

(17:44):
the other side to it, right?
That um most of the really coolcourses or routes or trails or
so, right?
Can't be that because um becauseof permitting, right?
And we're only now slowly CirqueSeries does that is opening up
ski resorts to the idea ofraces, right?

(18:05):
And you look at many of the bigski resorts, you look at um
Whistler, you look at OlympicValley, and they are running out
of trail, right?
I think if you would talk tothem, you know, I mean obviously
broken air is doing well foritself, right?
But I think you know, puttingwords into their brains, I have

(18:26):
no idea if they really thinkabout it.
But I think there's a realitythat you run out of trails on
ski resorts surrounded bynational parks or wilderness
boundaries, and they can't dothe classic, they can't get a
hundred mile or onto a skiresort.
Almost nowhere in the US is thatpossible without running loops,
right?
And so you're forced to goshorter.

(18:46):
And how do you go shorter with aspecific designation without
fitting it into that 50k, 25ksort of rigid format that we've
grown accustomed to, right?
And Beast has always been aboutrunning up to the summit and
back down and being super steepand foregoing any additional

(19:09):
flat stuff in order to justclimb.

SPEAKER_02 (19:12):
I I gotta ask you this, and this has always
perplexed me as someone that'svery specific to short trail in
the sport.
It's and maybe with like yourbecause you have a European
background, like because shorttrail is so it's like so such
commonplace and such a popularthing with a fan base in in
Europe.

(19:32):
Dude, why is it in the UnitedStates we are so ultra focused?
I don't understand that for thelife of me.
We care so much aboutarbitrarily contrived things,
like this has to be a hundredmiles and this has to be this.

SPEAKER_01 (19:45):
And well, if it's I mean yeah, sorry Western Western
states.
Yeah I mean it it it comes downfrom the history that you want
to run a hundred miles.
And I I you know I'm not dissingWestern states for it.
I just think that's that's sortof the reality.
That that trail is born in theUS out of ultrarunning, out of

(20:07):
the idea of can I reach thissomewhat arbitrary goal?
It wasn't so much about, man,I'm sitting in Olympic Valley.
I really want to go to Auburn,right?
I mean, it it wasn't like thatthat somebody decided that this
was the most beautiful line,right?
It was about um a very specificum you know goal to reach

(20:31):
hundred miles because thatlooked cool.
And I think a lot of this, youknow, distances are longer.
Um it's it's hard to find routesand permits, like in Europe in
the Alps, where you've got youknow 100 plus year history of
tourism and mountain sports.
You can build an event justaround let's run around this

(20:54):
mountain and let's um run up tothis summit or whatever it is,
right?
And the destination is thereason for the event to exist
and not the specific mileage.
I don't know where our sportwould be if UTMB, the um Ultra
Tour de Mont Blanc, wouldn't bealmost exactly 100 miles.

(21:15):
What happens if it would be 110kor something, right?
I mean it would our sport wouldhave sort of you know it
developed differently.
But I just think people drive flonger distances for a race.
Like I would to be quite honest,I have a hard time.
Would I sit on a plane and get arental car and four days of

(21:36):
hotel room to run a 7k circuseries race somewhere in the
middle of nowhere?
Like I do.
I I I mean you know, but I thinkI feel like there is sort of an
understanding, like if I alreadydo this, right, then it need I
need to run through the night, Ineed to, you know, you know,
make the most out of whatever,right?

(21:58):
So I think that's where some ofthis comes from.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (22:01):
Do you think what's your thoughts on the fan base?
Like, and I feel like you, as arace director with a world
skyrunner race now in the UnitedStates, you have to have some
thoughts on this.
Like, like, how do we, and I Imean like us also as media
persons in the sport, for morespecific to short trail, how do
we continue to build a fan baseor really do our best to build a

(22:23):
short trail fan base in theUnited States?

SPEAKER_01 (22:26):
Well, I think that uh two fan bases to consider,
right?
One is live fans actually on thetrail.
And the challenge with that isjust always, again, that our
races are super remote, they'resuper far away from epicenters
of vacation.
I can take my family to any racein Europe and they have the

(22:47):
greatest time, probably greaterthan me, suffering on the trail,
because there is all thisactivity for them, right?
If I tell my family that I wantto run a race in, you know, the
middle of nowhere, then they'relike, well, you're going by
yourself, right?
And I think then I don't havespectators and I don't have fans

(23:08):
on the course.
Wherein, I mean, if you've runin Europe and you've had this
finish line shoot experience inthe center of town, then you
know that that comes so naturaland is so perfect and so ideal,
and it's sort of impossible toreplicate just because we don't
run into town centers um for forour races, you know, most of the

(23:33):
time.
Now, when it comes to spectatorson film, Sky Runner, skyrunning
has the absolute best product,right?
There is no product that lookssexier when it comes to running
than people running above treeline with you know
glacier-carved mountains in thebackground.

(23:54):
Like these races that are sortof just through dusty forests,
yeah.
I mean, you can't capture themvia drones, and the pictures
aren't really that exciting, andduring the nighttime you don't
see anything, right?
Where in skyrunning is abovetree line, is inspiring.

(24:15):
It comes as close to thesexiness of paragliding and um
downhill skiing as as uh sporton two feet can get, right?
So cool.

SPEAKER_02 (24:28):
Yeah, so this is my this is my thing.
So I I feel like I sound like abroken record on this.
I talk about this on the podcastall the time.
I'm on the board of Pike toPeak, and dude, one of the
conversations I have in boardboard meetings all the time is
how in the world can we get morepeople on the trails, create
cheer zones, have get get theget the community involved, get

(24:49):
the fan base involved.
And I feel like it's lost on me.
I feel like people look at melike I have three heads.
Just because it's I feel likeit's just in the States, it's
not a thing yet.
Like we have to really buildthat culture and really try to
instill that culture into races.
I think Broken Arrow does a goodjob.
I mean, they seem to get plentyof people on course, and they're
pretty cool about having peopleon their courses.

(25:11):
The Rut does a great job.
Cirque series, I mean, I'veraced pretty much all of them at
this point, and there are peopleon course cheering, um, more or
less on different sections,depending on where the lifts are
and stuff like that.
Um it depends.
But I think that we we all, asnot just media people, race
directors, people in the sportcan do a better job at being at

(25:31):
these races and and reallyhaving the cowbells and going
wild and like making it a bigparty, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (25:39):
I mean, I I agree, right?
But it's also something that isreally hard to manufacture,
right?
Um I mean, when you sit indowntown Chamonix in an outdoor
restaurant and TDS runners comeby and you've got volunteers
because the TDS runners comefrom the opposite direction, so

(26:02):
they don't go that along themain finish chute.
And so as they come through,there are volunteers who have
cowbells that basically telleveryone who sits outside for
their evening pizza or uhrocklet that um that runners
come through, right?
And everybody in the outdoorrestaurant just uh stands up and
claps for them.

(26:22):
That's an experience, right?
I mean that.
No, we do, we need that, but wewhat we need it what you know,
the sort of so you know, in apast life I've been very
involved in um urban planningand placemaking, and there's
this thing called the power often, right?
In order to get people to beexcited about being in a place,

(26:45):
you need the power of ten, whichmeans ten things.
You can't just put a a trailthere, then well, some people
who like hiking there will be.
But a trail and a park bench isgood.
Maybe a park bench and a garbagecan next to it, maybe some
light, or maybe an awning orsomething, right?
Or maybe a little cafe wherepeople can have you know a piece

(27:05):
of cake and uh you know a cafe,uh coffee or something, right?
So you you need to createmultiple incentives for people
to want to be.
And I just think that I I I Iwant this to happen, but I'm
also very realistic, right?
I mean, Beast of Big Creek is ina very remote location of the

(27:28):
US.
It's very far from a major city.
The campground doesn't have, Imean, it has running water, but
it only has you know nationalforests, um, you know, um dry
toilets, and there is no cellcoverage, right?
To build the infrastructure upum will to to replicate that

(27:50):
European thing is uh nearlyimpossible, right?
You need to approach itdifferently, and I don't know,
you know, get people excitedabout camping and stuff, right?
Doable, absolutely, right?
But it's um yeah, it's just adifferent beast.

SPEAKER_02 (28:06):
Let's let's pivot a little bit.
I want to talk about that aspectof the race.
Can you can you talk about theOlympic Peninsula?
I was listening to uh it'sfunny, a single track sometime
recently, and I almost feel likeJeff um uh what's his name?
Uh forget his last name all thetime.
One of their co-hosts, JeffColt, I'm sorry, um, he kind of

(28:26):
knew.
He said something about like,why don't we just do worlds on
the Olympic Peninsula?
And I was like, Olympicpeninsula, that's such a random
place.
Why would you talk about that?
So I almost wonder if he kind ofhad an idea or heads up that we
were gonna get a world likeworld level race uh out uh out
in the Olympic Peninsula.
Talk about the beauty, talkabout the remoteness, talk about
the area and what it's like torun out there.

SPEAKER_01 (28:47):
Well, the Olympic Peninsula is um I I mean it's a
it's a super special place, butI think it flies under the radar
because most trails start moreor less at sea level, right?
So you don't get this classicmountain feel that you would

(29:08):
get.
In fact, I think many of thetowns in the area, Port Angeles
and Huttsboard or so, they'retorn because on one side they
have this outdoor mountainnational park culture when it
comes to tourism, but thenthey're right along the water,
and so they have this wholeboating and being along the
water and fishing village typesort of thing when it comes to

(29:31):
who should we attract from atourism point of view, right?
And so Olympic National Park,right?
I mean, this is a funny thing.
There's an Olympic peninsula, anOlympic National Park, and
Olympic mountains, and they'reall sort of overlapping, but
they're not all like all in thesame territory.
Um, so the Olympic National Parkum prides itself with also
having beach access and allthis, and in the southeast

(29:58):
corner of the Olympic peninsula,Olympic mountains, uh the
Olympic mountain range of thebrothers and Mount Eleanor and
Mount Washington.
And um, it's sort of a forgottenplace.
Most people go to the coast, goto the whole rainforest, go to
that area.
So tourists don't really go tothis large area called
Staircase, and there's a LakeCushman.

(30:20):
I mean, there's so manydifferent kinds of areas.
It's beautiful, it's 45 minutesfrom where I live.
It's sort of my go-to homemountain.
It had a huge wildfire thissummer.
That's why my race was canceled.
Um, and Skyrunner World Seriesannounced my race um as part of
the series, and my website stillsays cancelled for 25.
I'm like, hey guys, how aboutgiving me like I don't know, 24

(30:42):
hours heads up and I switchsomething over on the website so
it doesn't look like I'm likeway behind here.
So um so you know, super steeptrails because it um I don't
know, they're like you know, oldmining trails and stuff, right?
And one thing that's uniqueabout Mount Eleanor,

(31:02):
particularly, is that itactually a hiking trail that
goes directly to the summit.
Like Mount Washington is rightnext to it, and there's no real
trail, there's a lot ofoff-travel, off-trail travel
where it's like head walls andstuff.
Eleanor is a hiking trail, butfor most people they completely
underestimated it because itgoes above tree line, because

(31:25):
there's exposure, becausethere's this like rocky boulder
field that you kind of sort ofhave to hop through and stuff.
And so it's a super popular hikefor uh folks in western
Washington on a sunny daytowards the south.
You see all the volcanoes.
Like if you have a beautifulsunny day, yeah, you can see

(31:46):
Rainier and St.
Helens and Mount Hood and stuff.
It's absolutely gorgeous view.
And then you turn around and youdon't really see this until you
sort of make your way up to thesummit and you look north and
you see the entire interior ofthe Olympic Mountains with Mount
Olympus in the center, glacierfilled and stuff.
And so it's just a massivelyspecial place, right?

(32:07):
But it's sort of carved betweennational forests and national
parks, so jurisdiction-wise, andit's not developed, there is no
lodge, there is no um sort ofbig infrastructure, right?
And even most people who come tothe area for vacation, they come
there to just hang out at thelake.
They're not even going up in themountains.

SPEAKER_02 (32:29):
How tricky of it and how much of a pain in the ass is
it to like you can explain thisbecause I know nothing about
permitting other than what myrace director friends have kind
of told me and and how thisworks.
But once you have the permit,obviously it's it's a lot easier
to keep it than to get a wholenew one.
How hard is it to keep it,especially for do you have to
get the permit changed,especially for a world event

(32:50):
like this with more people?
Like, how does this how doesthat work?

SPEAKER_01 (32:53):
So essentially, if you don't fuck it up, meaning
you pay your fees every year,you know, you don't trash the
place, right?
I mean, if you don't screw upwhat you're signing off that
you're going to be deliveringand preserving at the same time,
it's fairly easy to keep thepermit unless you're working
with a jurisdiction that has asits main focus logging, right?

(33:19):
If logging is a higher priority,then you always play second
fiddle and then you always sortof play this um challenge that
and I run into this a little bitthat they're saying, yeah, you
get your permit, but we need tocheck with logging activity to
confirm that this is all goodand fine.

(33:39):
And so um, if you want to changethe permit, then it's
essentially song and dance everysingle year, right?
Every time you make a change, ifyou want to add 50 more people,
if you want from one day to twodays, whatever you do, right?
You're sort of pushing them, andthen they you have to go um
through a complete review cycle.

(34:00):
Every stakeholder gets, youknow, a four-week period to
respond and voice their concern,and you have to address all of
that.
And the biggest concern isalways nearby logging,
additional, I mean trailerosion, right?
How much can the trails hold,and um parking accessibility.

(34:23):
And if you can address thosethings, then in general they're
fairly sympathetic to you, justletting you do whatever you want
to do, right?
They're not there's nobodystanding over your shoulder and
say, Well, but you said that10x10 tent would be over there
in your um in your drawing, sonow you know you have to tear it
down, right?

(34:43):
Once you have it, it's fine.

SPEAKER_02 (34:45):
How how many people will will be at a race like
this?
Like how many would you expectfor for especially for a world
skunner year?
Because you're gonna haveinternational elites, you're
gonna have people from all overthe place.

SPEAKER_01 (34:56):
How many how what is my permit size?
So how many people do I expect?
So you tell me.
Yeah, right.
So so here so here's the biggestthe big challenge with all of
this, and we need to talk aboutthis a little bit, right?
And that is I had a permit andum for 2025, and we had a huge

(35:16):
fire that in the PacificNorthwest in western Washington,
where it's fairly moist, thefires they don't rip through
mountainsides the way you seepictures from Arizona or
California, right?
Where sort of everything getsburned and then it's over,
right?
It sort of smolders for weeks.
Like the fire.

(35:37):
They officially closed sort ofthe reporting on the fire in
November.
It started in early August, 4thof July, man-made um fireworks.
Thank you very much.
Fantastic.
And it smoldered, and inNovember they basically said
it's contained, but stillsmoldering in places, and we
literally have to wait for snowto cover it all up and get it

(36:00):
fully extinguished.
So it was just growing inacreage for a month at a time,
right?
And everything was closed, and Ihad a permit, and I had told
them I would like to extend itand expand the permit, and I got
disapproved with theanticipation of the possibility
of bringing the World Series.
I always introduced that to theNational Forest Service as a

(36:24):
possibility, but at the sametime, I wasn't willing to try to
submit a permit for a thousandpeople because I'd have to pay
for that, and then if 150 peopleshow up because it's not a World
Series event yet, right?
I wanted to grow it step bystep.
So fire forces me to cancel theevent.
I get my permit rolled over tothe following year, so I know

(36:44):
what I have at a much soonertime than I would usually.
My goal is to open registrationat these numbers, which is 250
over two races, and a lot of itis rollover from last year, so
it's going to be insanely tight.
I don't know if there is goingto be anybody getting in with

(37:08):
the elites um consideration andstuff.
It's going to be sell outimmediately, right?
My hope is that I can reach outto the National Forest Service
again and say, Hey, I'mproviding a new mobility plan.
I want to keep these numbers sothat don't take my previous um
permit off the table, but Iwould like to expand it by how

(37:31):
much waits to be seen.

SPEAKER_02 (37:33):
No, I I appreciate you being open and having this
conversation about it becauseyeah, I've you're gonna have a
ton of demand for this race,dude.

SPEAKER_01 (37:40):
So it's Oh oh I know.
My email inbox, my email inboxtells me that that's going to be
the case.
Yes.
Wow.
So my goal is folks who'vesigned up for 2025, they will
get a head start and they willbe able to sign up early.
That will not sell it out.
We do have an eliteconsideration that comes um from

(38:01):
Skyrun World Series.
We fill that up.
We will have some extra spotsbeyond that.
It won't be a ton, and thenhopefully and then it will be
sold out, and then we'll do await list of sort.
Most likely, I need to think allof this through, right?
I mean, yeah, this was announcedlast week.
I don't have all the pieces inplace yet.
But I think that's the plan tobasically sell it out, have a

(38:22):
wait list, and then work onexpanding the permit, and maybe
in March Um be able to come backand say, hey, we can have an
extra hundred people or 50people or something like that,
right?

SPEAKER_02 (38:34):
What is uh what's the stipulation from World
Skyrunner?
Like, do they make you like holdlike 50 spots, 100 spots for for
the for their elite athletes?

SPEAKER_01 (38:43):
Like, how does it work from the So let's talk
about that relationship a littlebit, right?
Um I'm I'm I'm pausing herebecause I'm trying to tell you.
I'm trying to be very I'm tryingto be very political.
They've been amazing.
I loved I loved working withthem, but I've also been very

(39:05):
straight with them and I sort ofhad not necessarily educate
because they are aware of thechallenges, but I've just
basically said, I'm a racedirector, I'm not a magician,
right?
I mean you can have all theexpectations that you want, but
the reality is it's NationalForest Land, it is a campground,

(39:27):
without cell coverage, it iswhat it is.
If you want this race, which isone of the only two certified
Sky Race courses at this point,then you have to just work with
me, right?
I'm not sitting at a negotiatingtable trying to be sly and
trying to get the best deal.
I just tell you here are therealities you were um we're

(39:48):
working with.
I can't um, you know, strong armthe National Forest Service into
turning Hotsport into Chamonix.
It's just not going to happen.
We need you need to understandthis.
And we Been playing the song anddance in various ways for a few
years, right?
Where they immediately wereinterested, but I've just said
here are the realities, right?

(40:09):
You can come and you can bringall of these expectations with
you, but if it doesn't if Ican't deliver, then it's just
not gonna happen, right?
And I think they've uh they'vethey've come to realize that
this is an absolute incredibleum opportunity.
It's uh fur uh you know, awayfrom Seattle, but not too far.

(40:34):
Like I mean, for people who comefrom uh out of the country, you
think you take a ferry over andhave one of the most gorgeous
approaches to a race ever,right?
I mean, there are ways of umgetting to this place and really
embracing what it is.
Um and you know, I think we justneed to build a sky race, not in

(40:56):
let's bring a European event toAmerica and sort of force it
over, but let's have the USinfrastructure realities not
compromise a sky race, butactually highlight what makes
the area, the logistics, um, therealities of the geography the

(41:19):
coolest thing ever.
I mean, I don't know, maybe I'llprovide um you know elite
accommodations by letting themall sleep in um tents um on a
campground, right?
I mean, why not?
I mean, we we could if we setthe stage and say this is what
it is, then that's that's whatwe that's what we do.

SPEAKER_02 (41:37):
How how would that work um for I guess elite
athletes and stuff like that?
I know like I said, I know we'rewe're not new to this, but this
is still in the early processes.
We got a lot to do before beforethe summer starts.
Um, but like for the athletescoming over, you said it's
pretty remote, it's kind of outthere.
So like there is no staying in ahotel then, unless you want to
drive over pretty far away,right?

SPEAKER_01 (42:00):
So I've proposed a couple ideas.
Um one is even Hood Sport, whichis 15, 20 minutes, kind of a
windy road along a lake up tothe campground where start and
finish is, isn't a town.
It's a hamlet, a township, orsomething like that, right?

(42:20):
They don't even have their owncity council.
There's no school there where Ican rent a parking lot for park
uh for parking or anything,right?
It's literally a community alongthe water with a coffee shop, a
gas station, and 20 Airbnbs,right?
So they are a couple littlehotels, but it's going to be

(42:41):
freaking August.
They are they don't need peopleat that time, so we're not
planning an off-season uh um wayfor them to extend, you know,
more bookings or something.
I'm we're competing with a townthat during that time doesn't
need any more hotel beds filled.
So we're gonna try to see what'spossible in Hotsport, and one

(43:04):
theory is to go all the way toOlympia where I live, uh,
because that this would be a45-minute drive to the start.
But there we have plenty ofhotels.
There we have a downtown but thehotels and downtown, the
restaurants are there, it'sright by the water.
We could have um you know, wecould have athlete briefing and

(43:26):
everything there, and then therace I know, yeah.
I think that would make sense.

SPEAKER_02 (43:32):
I mean, I I think about it from like the Cirque
series perspective, right?
Like they'll hold their race atlet's say Arapaho Basin in
Colorado, but they have theirbig pickup in Boulder at like
the Laspertiva store, and haveall that pre-race stuff in a
higher population area.
So that and same with SevenHills when they came to Crystal.
I think they had their uh bigpickup at the Seven Hills
Running Company, and uh but therace obviously was at Crystal

(43:55):
Mountain.
So I I think that perspectiveprobably works really well or
can work really well, um,especially first year too, where
a lot of those folks that aregonna be rollovers from last
year are probably fromrelatively from the greater
Pacific Northwest area, so itwould make good sense for that
as well.

SPEAKER_01 (44:12):
Yeah, so you know, it's it's all in the works right
now.
I mean, you jumped on this,right?
I mean, if we would have thisconversation at the end of
January, I you know, I d thenregistration is open, then the
race is sold out, then it's adifferent story.
But you know, we're all buildingthis up.
And I think that's the coolthing with partnering with uh

(44:34):
Skyrunner World Series at thispoint is that they're super
excited about coming to the USand there's additional momentum
with um a national series andand tons of support for all
angles.
That we are um they're comingand they're excited to make

(44:56):
things work with what they have,right?
It's not so n it's not like acar purchase where you they say
if you want the car, here arethe features, take it or leave
it, and this here the demands,right?
They're basically saying, hey,we'll build something custom
with you because it's worth it,because um we want something in
the US, we want to get on theground again.

(45:18):
And I mean, going back to thecertified course, you just can't
plant these courses anywhere,right?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (45:26):
Yeah.
Well, do you know?
I don't know if you can bepublic about this or say
anything.
Uh, because I've been rootingaround for information, and I I
already I already got an angryemail from Ryan Kerrigan.
Uh it seems like there was anannouncement made.
Uh they kind of announced itwhere there it seems like there
is gonna be a national serieswith Whiteface and a few other
races.
Can you speak more to that?
I know there's some momentumthere, and they kind of put out

(45:48):
a newsletter for the course.

SPEAKER_01 (45:50):
So, yeah, so basically what I can say is that
I you know, I explained early onthat we have the Skyrunner World
Series, which is uh, you know,title sponsored by uh Merrill,
and you've got the InternationalSkyrunning Federation, which has
sort of a different format, andit's two separate entities.

(46:12):
And what I can say is that bothof them have come together and
say, okay, North America, UnitedStates, 2026 is the year.
And so they are sort of twoentities pushing in with um with
all of their sort of weightbehind it.
So it's not one of those thingswhere I just sat on a bucket of

(46:36):
money and bought my way intosome obscure uh racing series in
order to bring it to my littlerace.
It's really the a concertedeffort by multiple parties in
trying to make something happenand make it for real, right?
Not just okay, for two years itwas a Skyrim World Series event
and now it disappeared again.
They want to build a d enoughplatform that you know under-20

(47:00):
uh runners can get to race andum people can experience
skyrunning in different parts ofthe country in order to
experience and get a taste ofwhat it is to be part of that
World Series, right?
Yeah, that was very that wasvery political, right?
I was I was very smart.

(47:22):
I don't know, I don't know.
It was very smart to say a wholebunch and not say a lot.
No, I think it's fair.

SPEAKER_02 (47:29):
Well said, well said, yeah.
I mean, like, I don't know.
I could speculate from from hereto the Cal's cap home on on what
races will be involved and howthat works.
There's obviously, from what itseems like, more announcements
to come and more things to come,but it'll be I I think at the
end of the day, and this is justme as an athlete in the sport
and as a media brain in thesport, I I think it's a good
time for skyraining to come tothe States.

(47:50):
You're seeing the you know, bigexpansion by the Cirque series,
and I think it's only going toget bigger and only gonna get
probably be one of the biggestgames in town.
You see the Golden Trail series,which seems to pick a new race
or new the two races in NorthAmerica every year.
And I also think Golden Trailmight not be the same thing it
was in previous years.
I think it there's a little bitof shine that's starting to fade

(48:13):
a little bit, um, but still verycompetitive, still, in my
opinion, soaks up most of thetalent that comes out of North
America.
But I think there's anopportunity for the for world
Skyrunner to come in um and andreally plant the flag and uh
start to grow this thing, andthat way they're like a
legitimate player in NorthAmerica for sure.

SPEAKER_01 (48:35):
I mean, the the way I see the landscape right now is
there's such an opportunemoment.
We came out of worlds andskyrunning was all of a sudden
on the map in the US, right?
I mean, Spain is listening tothis and laughing, like, what do
you mean all of a sudden on themap?
We've been doing this for a fewdecades.
So all of a sudden, people weretalking about sky racing and and

(48:57):
and start talking about um thisthis this idea of sort of
finding routes that are sort ofon the edge of the comfort zone
and not just endlesslyCalifornia carpet races, right?
So taking you to to to thisthese places.
So we come from there, and thenwe see the larger landscape of

(49:18):
people sort of starting tounderstand what UTMB does, and
there's a little bit of aboredom setting in.
Okay, here's another race with a100 mile, 100k, 50k distance.
Hey, here's another race withanother right.
There is sort of a sameness thatcomes out of it where I think
they're still doing a great job,but I think they're especially
from a media point of view,you're looking for the next

(49:40):
story, right?
And then you've got goldentrails, and I think over the
last couple years, they sort oftook a little bit of the hood
off their heads, and like, okay,this is actually just a Solomon
marketing vehicle, right?
You you all know this, right?
So this is not just a goldenseries, this is really just
Solomon.
Um, and Solomon will makedecisions based on where they

(50:04):
want to sell shoes, and if thatis in some obscure corner in
China, then that's where theywould put a race, right?
And I think um I think that justprovides some challenges, as you
know, as we've seen here in theUS.
And then you can like take theannouncements from yesterday.
Yesterday, World Trail Majorloses two events, right, from 12

(50:28):
down to 10, and they're notreplacing them.
And I mean heck, right?
I mean, you can go now and sayin this sport, can we truly have
what races, what events do weneed to have that make a series
a series?
Like to run to some st for somestones in order to qualify for a

(50:51):
final makes sense, butespecially in ultra distance,
you can't expect people to run600 miles a year, right?
And so I think you need to thereis an opportunity to redefine
what it means to be a series, torun for points.
And I mean sky racing is thisperfect mixture between short

(51:11):
distance, so you can actuallyrun multiple races a year.
And absolutely pardon me,absolutely gorgeous courses.
I swallowed my punchline.
No, you're good.
And absolutely gorgeous courses,right?
And so they become visuallyperfect to photograph and to

(51:34):
shoot, and they um for runnersare great, so multiple uh people
can actually run and get points,right?

SPEAKER_00 (51:43):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (51:44):
Yeah, the UTMB thing makes me scratch my head because
like UTMB, I don't know, likethe week of UTMB is really
special.
Like the races they put on, Ithink, are really cool.
I I don't see any issue withUTM.
I mean, obviously there's plentyof little nuances people are
gonna complain about.
I think that's with any race.
But like the whole, I don'tknow, the whole mountaineering
spirit and running around thethe massif, and now they have

(52:06):
all these sweet uh you know, CCChas its own become its own
thing, TDS is its own thing.
Even ETC, I was really lovingfollowing ETC this year.
I think that should be uh, youknow, on an off year that's not
worlds.
I let's make that the MountainClassic World Championship,
given that it's like, I don'tknow, like 14k, 11k, something
like that.
Um but as far as the MountainClassic distance goes, I think

(52:29):
that's a perfect fit for it.
It brings world-class field.
You had crazy good runners therethis year.
Um so each event I feel like hastaken its own thing.
The rest of it though, I some ofit's snoozed bill for me.
Uh like like like Speedgoat.
When they bought Speedgoat, I II feel like Speed Goat's lost
luster since they bought it, butthat's just me.

SPEAKER_01 (52:47):
So you see, you see, this is I've been following this
immensely closely over the lastcouple of years on electric.
Cable Car, my blog where I'msort of reporting on all of the
races and stuff.
And here is the thing with UTMB.
I think by and large, as much asthey are courting the elites and
they would never say this outloud because if they would say

(53:09):
we don't care about the elites,then obviously it would be bad
for their sponsors.
They they want elites, but theseries is built so amateurs can
get points.
I mean stones, right?
It's all set up so you and I canget qualifying um stones, so we
can uh get uh Hatton lottery forthe finals.

(53:30):
And that's why these events aresnooze wheel, right?
Because I want a race close tome so I can run it without
insane expenses, um, and get mystones so as the lottery opens
in a couple days, um, I knowthat I can put my hat in in my

(53:52):
hope to go back to Shamany,right?
And so I think that's what thesystem of the UTB World Series
is built out on.
And the whole let's find elitesto compete in specific events.
Um, I mean, that was alreadythree years ago a problem where
elites were saying there are toomany events because I sign up

(54:13):
for a race that fits my trainingcalendar and no other elites at
the start line.
And so I win the event, haha,great, but I don't have the
competition.
I want the competition.
And that was before they'vereached 60 plus races, right?
So I don't see I mean, maybetheir majors is just are going

(54:33):
to try to be that, but you know,yeah, I I think Golden Trail has
a UTMB problem.

SPEAKER_02 (54:38):
This is something that's not really talked about
much, but like I don't know,most elite contracts, a lot of
them, a lot of brands, will haveuh, you know, you go win uh UTMB
50k and you're gonna get apretty sweet performance bonus.
And I would go race that and goget my performance bonus, not
have to go through the gauntletthat is Golden Trail series, or

(54:59):
at least all of them.
Um, whereas then I gotta go, ifI race a Golden Trail series
race, then I gotta go up againstPatrick Philemon, El Housin, uh,
and every other insanelyworld-talented athlete, right?
So I understand why athletesmaybe falling off the scene a
little bit on the Golden Trailseries, just because it, I mean,

(55:20):
lack of a better word, it's it'sit's an easier path.
It's it's you gotta you put inthe same amount of work for a
better result, in my opinion,uh, than having to go through.
But, you know, it's it's 50-50.
You also want to get crazy goodcompetition, but you also want
to get a payday.
So it's it's it's kind of uh youknow, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (55:38):
I I don't know too much about these these
compensations.
I the elites that I speak to,they always iterate to me that
the sponsor contracts that theyhave allow them to pick whatever
events they want, that they'renot beholden by uh maybe UTMB is

(55:59):
the one weekend where they haveto show up, but beyond that,
they're free to pick any racethat they want.
So I don't I can't really speakto that.
I'm pretty sure it's true,right?
I'm not denying it.
But yeah, absolutely.
I think there's definitely umthat piece too.
But I think with Golden Trailparticular, it's an interesting

(56:20):
um challenge that I thinkthey're just all in.
Solomon is a huge sponsor of theOlympic Games, and so I just
think they're trying to positionthemselves extremely hard in
being sort of a feeder andshowcase event of what um um
trail running in the Olympicscould look like, right?

(56:42):
What's your what's your take onthat?
Do you think we should be anOlympic sport?
So here's my take on this.
It's very much colored fromskyrunning.
I think it should be in theWinter Olympics.

SPEAKER_02 (56:52):
Ooh, all right, don't make it elaborate on this.

SPEAKER_01 (56:55):
Well, I mean, trail running partially is defined by
mud and grit and uh gnarliness,right?
And so as the winter Olympic theWinter Olympics are anyway
smaller, and as if if it becomesan a summer Olympic sport, then
it's just gonna be anotherrunning event and we'll sort of
be in the larger like track andfield category.

(57:17):
Oh yeah.
And so I think it will not fitnicely in there, or even worse,
to they're running on themountain bike loop because that
looks the same, right?
I think it should uh the IC andI mean this is a complete pipe
dream.
I love the Olympics, but they'renot the smartest bunch, right?
So climate change is gonna wreckmost of the winter sports

(57:40):
anyway.
So it would do them well if theywould think of can we bring some
sports into the Winter Olympicsthat don't require a perfect
layer of snow.
And um to have trail running inthe Winter Olympics, you could
probably do.
I mean, you know, it would be sodifferent, it would look

(58:01):
different, it would feeldifferent, it would have a much
bigger pop than if it would bejust another running event in
the Summer Olympics.
I like that.

SPEAKER_02 (58:09):
That's that is the most that's that's the best one
I think I've heard so far.
Because the all the otherconversations have been yes or
no, and then what do we do?
Do we just have a VK and thenyou run around a track a few
times?
Like how like what what what dowe do?
Um like I don't know.
I mean this could be cool.
This could be cool because it'slike the sky race day math sin,
uh or day math however youpronounce it, um, but like

(58:30):
that's always a late May, earlyJune, somewhere in that range
race, where there's a ton ofsnow, and it's really cool, it's
very different and very unique.

SPEAKER_01 (58:39):
Yeah, and International Sky Running
Federation has a sky snowcategory, so they have specific
events that are meant to be runon snow.
And um there is the Hannenkam,one of the most notorious ski
downhill uh slopes on the inAustria on the World Cup series.

(59:02):
Um there is an uphill runningevent uh that happens every year
in February on on snow, whereyou basically just go up this
insanely steep ski slope.
Um and so there is a precedentwhere you could totally build a
course that is either entirelyon snow, right?
You could have one event onsnow, one event not on snow,

(59:26):
right?
I mean, I think that there isroom.
And I think it would make thebigger impact, and it would take
hello, it would take away thecompetition from all the summer
events, right?
I mean, if Summer Olympicshappens in July, then UTB is
like, are you gonna run me orare you gonna run the Olympics?
Right?
It's like put it in February.
You're not gonna compete withany major event.

(59:47):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (59:48):
See what how do we uh what do we do with the world
going forward?
Is this still uh an every yearkind of thing?
Are you excited about that?
I I feel like we learned a lotthis year.
It was a very interesting event.
I I think the lack there of someathletes in the longer distances
was a little frustrating, but Istill think at the shorter
distances like Short Trail andDown that was that was fun to

(01:00:12):
follow.
But I have one more caveat tothat.
Toby Alexanderson, I think, onany course would have won.
I don't know if Fred Tranchardwould have been the world
champion had it been a differentcourse.
I'm just gonna put that one outthere.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:25):
I mean, I you know, I mean, again, my sort of
personal interest and followingis more on sort of the business
strategy around it all.
I don't really follow all thedifferent athletes um that
closely uh and the strategiesaround it.
I mean, my hot take is if theworld champs are gonna happen be

(01:00:50):
happening every two years, itcannot happen in the fall
because it's either the end ofthe season or it completely uh
competes with UTMB, which isjust way too big of an event.
It has to happen in May or June.
Yes, it will then compete withWestern states, but Western
States has 300 runners and UTMBhas thousands, right?

(01:01:13):
I mean, if you want to worryabout drawing competition away
from the worlds, Western Statesis a much lower draw because way
fewer elites run this event,comparatively across the other
events that are worlds, right?
And so, in order to giveathletes the best chance to be
at the height of their game, youshould have it at the beginning

(01:01:36):
of the summer, and let them thedistances are anyway shorter,
right?
Most runners who are running thelonger distances sort of built
their season up, a shorter race,a little longer race, longer
race, UTB or tour or somethinglong at the end, right?
And so I think put it early inthe season, make it a feature

(01:01:57):
then, and um and and thenthey're not called all gassed
out at the end of the year.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:04):
Yeah, I agree.
I agree.
It definitely something needs tobe done to the calendar to kind
of make everything fit all atonce.
Because that's the thing.
If we had uh Ben Diemon and Tomin the mix that maybe didn't
have UTMB in their legs, itwould have made for a much
interest more interesting race.
Um and on the women's side, Ithink it would have been an
interesting race as well.
So I don't know.
You know, it's uh it's all goodspeculation.

(01:02:26):
I think things need to change onthe sponsor side too.
I know Caleb Bolson was prettyuh outspoken and wrote a really
good Substack article on on howbecause and this is um just from
the athlete perspective, likebrands just don't seem to give a
shit when it comes to world, orat least a lot of them don't,
because you can't really markettheir product.
You're wearing their shoes.

(01:02:46):
Yeah, for obvious reasons.
Right, right, right.
You're wearing their shoes, butif you're running for, let's
say, Team USA, you're in acomplete and total Nike kit.
Like no one, uh no brand isgonna get behind that.
So I think things need to changeneed to change or progress in
some way there.
Um that's a whole notherconversation.
And yeah, it's uh I think it'sjust growing pains in the sport.
We'll we'll figure it out.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:07):
Yeah, I mean, I think wearing the national team
kit is special for everyathlete.
It's special for um the fans ofthe sport to see this, to have
an event where you can followsomething along different
storylines rather than justfollowing the individual athlete
that you have the most affinitywith or so, right?

(01:03:29):
Um sort of de-emphasizing thesponsor attention and focus on
sort of that classical nationalteam element in sports, I think,
is cool.
Um and I love this in any sport,and so I think it has a right to
exist, but yeah, I do not thinkthat um our sport has fully

(01:03:52):
figured this out and has theright kind of um found the right
kind of angle.
But again, right?
I mean, you can just play thisout.
I mean, if these trail runningnational associations aren't
part of a proper national, failarger federation or don't have
a proper home, then there's nofunding there, and then it's

(01:04:13):
shitty for the athletes, and uh,right?
And we we uh don't have a goodproduct, a spectator product,
you know.
I followed it from afar, but Ijust I don't watch you know
crummy YouTube videos.
I don't watch it for hardly anyevents, right?
Yeah, that's true.

(01:04:33):
That's true.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:34):
I just want to see the best compete against the
best, and I don't want there tobe any BS involved, and I think
that's one of the things, atleast for long trail, UTMB has
done a great job of making themthere, there's enough incentives
there and enough of a worldstage there to where generally,
and obviously there's yearswhere we're missing Killian,
Francois, you know, this, that,and the other, but generally

(01:04:58):
we're getting the best of thebest uh against one another.
Um, yeah, I don't know.
It's interesting, it's a crazysport, man.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:07):
No, it it absolutely is, and um um, you know, I'm
just I'm just both fascinatedand grateful that I can be in
it, play a role in it, play apart in it, um, bring this guy
around a world series to the USand sort of I mean I'm yeah, I'm
not gonna sleep between now andAugust.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:27):
Well, hopefully we have more conversations between
now and then.
Um I want to open up the mic toyou if you have any
announcements that you want tomake when as things get rolling,
if you have anything that youwant to put out there in the
world that I can be a part ofand help with, the microphone is
yours.
I uh any way I can help becauseI love the fact that you're
putting on this event and uhreally happy world skyrunners
coming to the states.

(01:05:48):
So uh anything else if you wannayou do you think we uh got
everything, or is there anythingelse you want to put out there?

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:54):
Well, I'll I'll give you uh give you quickly the
rundown.
I appreciate you having me onthe show.
So a couple important things.
Um I'm gonna have a website, adedicated website for Beast of
Big Creek uh soon.
BeastofbigCreek.com exists,currently redirects to rock or
directs to Rock Andy Running.
I will have more information forfolks who are interested in the

(01:06:16):
nuts and bolts.
I mean, there's still a ton ofstuff that needs to be sort of
ironed out and figured out andbuilt from scratch before I can
make the announcements.
So be patient.
My hope is, and my currentannouncement is that by January
14th I'll have registration openagain that will sort of um, I
don't know, include or haveincluded already um previous

(01:06:40):
runners and elites and stuff,they will all go through a
different channel.
So BeastofBigCreek.com is thewebsite.
I just started an Instagramaccount for that race
particularly as well.
I'll put that in the show notesso people can follow.
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, you know, if you'reinterested in, I don't know,
more of me, not really me atall.
And the Trail Running FilmFestival is going back on tour

(01:07:02):
mid-March, and we're currentlyin the process of sifting
through a ton of incrediblesubmissions for new films gonna
be hopefully in a town near youor not.
If you are interested in seeingwhere it is, calendar isn't
fully updated yet, buttrailfilmfest.com has
information.
If you want to host and bringthe Trailing Film Festival to

(01:07:23):
your town, um reach out to meand let's make that happen.
What else?
Electric Cable Car is my daily,daily almost blog where I'm
trying to write down all of thethings that I just rambled about
for an hour.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:38):
I love it.
I love it.
And I'll link that in the shownotes as well.
Uh, dude, you've had some greatones, man.
I was so happy that you had AlexArenzi on, uh, especially with
the whole Michelino thing.
And what a what a wild time.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:49):
So this was a this was a really, really tough one
for me because I I loved havinghim on, especially the second
time when he sort of like, youknow, opened uh up and kind of
was able to sort of share whatactually went down in this year
and a half of legal case, whichyou can't really talk much about
when it's ongoing, right?

(01:08:10):
But I also felt massively out ofwith my depth.
I have absolutely no idea on howto sort of guide this
conversation because I don't I'mnot experienced in this legal
stuff, right?
And so I don't really know whatwords to use in order to say, oh
yeah, and then you were doingthat.
Oh, oh, that's what this iscalled.
Uh I'm an idiot.
So that's it was a really Alexis a genius.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:33):
So he I think pretty sure he went to Harvard Law
School, so it's we're all out ofour depth effects to talk about.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:39):
So anyway, I think it was important to bring this
conversation um out, right?
But I think it's uh um at thesame time, um yeah, those
conversations are challenging.
Right, and I mean let's talkabout this, right?
I mean, we as hosts, there arenow so many podcasts um on trail
running, and uh, you know, youknow, it's so easy to just grab

(01:09:01):
a mic and finding a unique anglethough, finding a new unique way
of weaving a story together.
Um, I think it's really hardbecause it's so easy to get
started and just shoot thebreath for an hour, right?
And then say, hey, this wasreally fun.
It was fun catching up orgetting to know each other,
right?
But what's what's the meat?

(01:09:22):
Where are uh the realconversations where the real
stories and the value, right?
I mean it's it's an interestingchallenge to pull out.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:30):
My take on that is uh yes, anyone can pick up a
microphone, but can you beconsistent?
Can you do it every three timesa week for three years, four
years, five years until youfinally get it to click?
Like I think it's I feel like inmy opinion, like you're not even
like I still don't considermyself a podcaster because I'm
not even three years in.
Like I uh I feel like it's likeanything in life, like running,

(01:09:54):
whatever.
You're not good at somethinguntil you hit like 10,000 hours
of mastery.
And even then you're still eventhen you're still improving and
getting better.
Listen, man, I've reinventedmyself in this a few times.
Like I've always had the sameangle with short trail, but for
me, I used to be so scared to uhto rock the boat or say
something that I thought likesomeone wasn't gonna like, or

(01:10:17):
you know, because just oh god, Iwould get a negative review on
Apple.
Now, once I stopped caring aboutthat, I feel like I have had
more success with it and it'sclicked a lot more.
Where I don't mind being theheel and calling someone out and
being just as long as it's I'mtrue to myself and true to what
the sport should be and what Ithink the sport should be.

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:36):
Yeah, I think for me it's about guest selection,
right?
Because I think especially withInstagram, it's so easy to slide
into someone's DM and say, Hey,do you want to be in the show,
right?
Um, but you need to find anunique angle of what you want to
talk to them about.

(01:10:57):
And I think especially as you'regoing up as a podcast, I think
you naturally want um the coolerpe people, the ones that are
sort of you know globally knownand stuff, right?
That feel that gives your egosomething and hopefully your
clicks too and stuff, right?
And but sometimes these peopleare so polished or you have no

(01:11:18):
real connecting piece other thanlike gushing over how cool they
are.
Um, you know, like when I hadFrancesco Pupi on the show,
right?
I pretty much said off the bat,I don't want to talk to you at
all about your athleticperformances, right?
I was like, I I feel like wehave enough other stuff to talk
about.
And he was like, Oh, thank God.

(01:11:38):
Yeah, yeah, he was so relieved.
No, exactly.
And this is the interestingthing that I think like athletes
are humans foremost, and theywant to be treated as a human.
And you know, we sort of youknow, we sort of sometimes
present, especially us in themedia, that we're bored of

(01:12:01):
Courtney Dowater interviewsbecause she's so polished and
so, you know, here is my paincave and here's my candy, right?
But I think she wants to be ahuman, and as a human, she she
isn't really I don't think sheis hiding some kind of wicked
master plan and how her trainingcomes together.
I don't think she is I think shejust really understands how to

(01:12:24):
embrace the flow state.
And man, I was just in Seattlewhen Killian finished up his um
states of elevation thing, andhe was interviewed, and I mean
he pissed me off so much becausehe was so low-key about his
achievement, right?
Everybody in the audience islike, we want to bow down to
you, great Killian king andruler of our sport, right?

(01:12:46):
I mean, genuinely, thisachievement was massive, and
he's just like, oh yeah, andthen I hopped on the bike and uh
just like rode for 2,000 miles.
What's the big deal, right?
And it's like these people arehuman, they are superhuman in a
sense that they um that thatthey can do things that I can't
do that we can't do, right?
But by and large, they're humansthat are driven by passion and

(01:13:10):
by large lung capacities, right?
I mean, they're and and I thinkthose are the conversations for
me that are the best, eventhough sometimes us in the media
they infuriate us because wesort of want to dig in.

SPEAKER_02 (01:13:23):
Uh that's a it's an yeah, that's a big thing for me.
And it's not so much the it likeas an athlete in the sport, I I
find it very easy to haveconversations with other
athletes.
That never bothered me.
That was always fine, that wasnever an issue.
For me, it's dealing with othermedia personalities, and I won't
like name names, but like when Igo through and listen to other

(01:13:44):
podcasts, like like forinstance, like I you have a
particular angle that I reallyenjoy.
I think Finn from Singletrackhas a very good angle that I
particularly enjoy.
Yeah, she just has a shitty namefor a podcast, but before I was
gonna ask you about that.
I have another question on thatafterwards, but like, dude, so
many people are so boringbecause no one wants to say, no
one speaks their mind.

(01:14:04):
It's all the same button-upshit.
It's all the same, like, let metoe the line and not not not
make you upset, and not makethis group upset.
I'm gonna just kind of stay inthe middle and you know, just be
very, very careful.
And no one has any hot takeswhere I see more on the Euro
side, more people on the Euroside in media have out takes.

(01:14:24):
Like they're they're not afraidto like say something or like
speak their mind.
Um, but yeah, I don't know.
I I hope that changes, and Ithink that's something like I'm
going to continue to lean intoum with speaking more of my mind
for the sport.
Um, so yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:40):
I don't know.
I think everybody's just tooworried about the advertising
revenue.
Yes, right.
For everybody, everybody'strying to make it a business and
feels like, man, you know, if Ilike do something that you know
pisses off a sponsor, either ofthe athlete that I'm having uh
interviewing or the sponsor thatI am interviewing, right?

(01:15:01):
Everybody tries to create themost vanilla product in order to
sort of create and I don't know,I mean, mass like big mainstream
media sports, by and large, isalso very hot take-free, right?
I mean, they're putting somefigureheads on who sometimes
have a big head and and stuff,but I I mean, think about it.

(01:15:22):
When the Olympics happen orhere, like I mean, in mainstream
media, you will not get anybodytalk negatively about the FIFA
World Cup coming and all thebullshit that's going down.
Everybody is gonna just gonna belike, you know, let's just
dribble and watch the and andwatch the sport and act like
charging$3,000 for a ticket foruh the soccer world cup is in

(01:15:47):
any way connected to to thesport.
You get this stuff, you know, inthink pieces in the Atlantic and
the New York Times and stufflike that, right?
But in in sort of the mainfigurehead media, right, you get
mostly like, let's just see howcool Messi is.

SPEAKER_02 (01:16:06):
Oh, dude.
I could we could we could do awhole other podcast list.
I do have one question for youbefore I let you go.
Okay, how did it come up?
So Fing got the single trackname for his podcast.
You had it first.
How did that work out?

SPEAKER_01 (01:16:18):
Well, you know, you you know how it worked out.
I mean, he still has it, and Istill have it.
Basically, I emailed him, afriend of mine pointed it out to
me, and I emailed him and said,dude, I've been doing this for
200 episodes.
Do you think you know, 10episodes in, do you want to
change it?
And he said, No.
No shit.

SPEAKER_02 (01:16:34):
I mean, Finn's a really good guy.
I've like he's given me a lot ofadvice, but like I've never
asked that question.
So very interesting.
That's yeah, damn.

SPEAKER_01 (01:16:41):
So, you know, I w what what can I say, right?
Would I would I've appreciatedthat you know, you'd
reconsidered it if somebody umis sort of covering exactly the
same sort of angle in the samesport and has a name and has
like 200 episodes, that youwould respect it.

(01:17:02):
Of course I would have respectedthat, right?
And I appreciated that.
But some people feel different.

SPEAKER_02 (01:17:08):
We got a beef in the podcasting world.
Here we go.
I mean, this is outrageous.
Now we have these conversations.
Uh I love it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:17:16):
I I I yeah, I don't know, I don't know what to say.
I can say that I did not engagewith a lawyer.

SPEAKER_02 (01:17:25):
Oh man.
Crazy.
Crazy too.
Well, now you know one.
Alex Arenzi, that's the guy.
If you if you got a problem, hecan get your presidential
pardon.
There you go.
Seriously.
Well, listen, Matias, thank youso much for your time.
I can't wait to talk more in thefuture.
Uh, super appreciative.
And uh best of luck this yearwith the Beast of Big Creek.
And uh, I can't wait to see ituh continue to grow and uh this

(01:17:47):
avenue of the sport grow.
So appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:17:50):
Thank you so much.
Are you gonna come out?

SPEAKER_02 (01:17:52):
Yeah, actually, I well that's kind of what I was I
was kind of poking around aboutlike elite entries and entries
and stuff like that.
Maybe we'll see.
I'd like to come out and like dopre-pre and post-race
interviews.
I might race it too if I can geta spot.
We'll we'll talk about this.

SPEAKER_01 (01:18:05):
We we should we should talk about it.
I I have not I mean I've talkedlocally with folks and you know,
having to completely rebuild myorganization because my race is
so far on a scale that it's sortof you know my daughter at the
aid station and and and stuff,which they want to continue beat
the H and I'll have my I have myfamily do my um uh help out and

(01:18:27):
stuff, but I need obviously alarger group you know, need to
set this up completelydifferently.
But I think there is anopportunity in sort of trying
to, yeah, I don't know, tryingto look at how can we do media
without just calling up MountainOut uh post and saying, hey, do
live streams, thank you verymuch, right?
I mean, is there a way ofrethinking what media around an

(01:18:50):
event like this can look like?
So I think there's someopportunity.

SPEAKER_02 (01:18:53):
Yeah, we will talk more of that.
And it's you know what it's in afavorable spot in the schedule
for me because I don't haveanything till the end of August
uh on that, like it as far as myAugust calendar.
So we'll all we'll talk more ofthis.

SPEAKER_01 (01:19:04):
I like it.
I like it.
Well, I uh thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 (01:19:09):
Awesome, dude.
Thank you so what you guysthink.
Oh man, what a fun show.
Want to thank Matias so much forcoming on for a conversation.
Uh poor guy, I hit him with 21questions about the race, and it
literally just got announcedlast week that it was gonna be
on the World Sky Running series.
So um I appreciate him beingwilling to uh to answer all the

(01:19:30):
questions and uh just be willingto uh talk about the race.
And I'm so excited to get thehype train rolling for this.
August is gonna be here for youbefore you know it, and uh can't
wait to be covering this raceand just you know getting the uh
word out to the community and uhour our our world of short trail
to uh build the hype train forit.
So, guys, if you enjoyed thispodcast and you've been enjoying

(01:19:51):
our episodes, give us a fivestar rating and review on Apple,
Spotify, YouTube, or whereveryou consume your podcasts.
That's right.
Pan on over to YouTube, hit thatsubscribe button.
Button and uh yeah, definitelycheck us out on Spotify and
Apple as well.
And uh special on Apple.
Uh write what you've been likingor disliking.
Like I'd love to hear what youguys think.

(01:20:12):
Um yeah, all good stuff there.
Guys, lots of good stuff comingthroughout the rest of the new
into the new year.
Lots of cool announcements.
Supposedly one of these days I'mgonna do a state of the steep
stuff episode.
I've just been trying to line upa co-host to get that done.
Uh Frank Censeri.
Um yeah.
So uh appreciate you guys, anduh lots of good stuff on the

(01:20:32):
horizon.
Thanks so much.

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#148 - Mathias Eichler, RD Beast of Big Creek

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#148 - Mathias Eichler, RD Beast of Big Creek