Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What's up, fam?
Welcome back to the Steep StuffPodcast.
I'm your host, james Loriello,and the stoke is high for
today's episode.
I am so excited to bring youguys an episode with none other
than Dan Kurtz, by way of theNortheast.
He's like a Vermont, newHampshire, maine guy man.
Dan is an amazing guy to haveon the podcast.
It was really fun having a chatwith him.
(00:21):
We did a deep dive into thesub-ultra scene and talked a lot
about where the sport's at andwhere the sport's going.
There was a lot of hot takesthere and it was a blast to dive
into.
For those of you who don't know, dan is probably out of Iowa
State, the most highlyanticipated, highly touted
prospect our sport has probablyever had on the sub-ultra scene.
(00:43):
You're talking about someonewith such talent coming from the
tracks onto the trails, uh, andit's been amazing to kind of
seen his career like blossom umover the last few years, as he's
uh, you know, now made threeteam USAs and uh represented the
United States at two worlds um,both in Chiang Mai, um as well
as uh in Spruck, which waspretty crazy, crazy.
(01:03):
We dove pretty deep into that.
We talked about the pressure toperform as well as the pressure
to make another world's teamthis year and to continue to
produce.
We did talk about his race backin 2023 at the Sunopee Scramble
, where he took the dub andcemented his place to go over
and represent Team USA atInSprook in the Mountain Classic
.
(01:23):
I refer always to Dan as themaster of the mountain classic,
which is my favorite kind of, myfavorite distance, my favorite
style of racing.
It's kind of like that Cirqueseries up down, where it's like,
you know, throw yourself up amountain as hard as you can and
throw yourself off that mountainas hard as you can.
It's, it's a really fun style.
Um, yeah, but we didn't justtalk about that, um, we talked
about Thailand.
We talked about, uh, you know,some of the UTMB by Thailand,
(01:47):
utmb races, um, that Dan hadraced in the past few years, um,
coming off of you know smallinjury from there and what it's
like to train in the Northeast,um, versus like a place like
Boulder, things like that.
So, yeah, this was an awesomeconversation.
I honestly had a blast.
This one lasted almost two hoursand I am so excited we could
have we could have made thisfour hours, so I'm stoked for
(02:09):
part two.
So, guys, without further ado,I hope you enjoy this one.
Really have a lot of respectand admiration for someone like
Dan.
You know that's kind of he'scompeting at like the pinnacle
of our sport and, yeah, just areally cool guy.
So enjoy this one.
It's time We'll be right back.
(03:28):
Ladies and gentlemen, we arelive People, earth.
Listen up.
It is March, guys, and I am soexcited that Ultimate Direction
is finally unveiling their newvest lineup for 2025.
Head on over toultimatedirectioncom to check
out the new RaceVest 6 liter andUltraVest 12 liter.
They're going to be coming atyou in two beautiful aesthetic
colors the Onyx and green, aswell as the white and blue guys.
(03:52):
I absolutely love these.
I've been playing around inthese products for months and
months Now.
You might've seen Tara Warrenlast year running in both ultra
and race fast, as she absolutelysmashed it in the Rocky
mountain slam.
Um, guys, this is a verydurable, solid product that I
absolutely love.
Um, like I said, the colorwheels are beautiful and this is
(04:13):
something I think you're goingto be really looking at as you
start to put together your racecalendars.
You're going to need somedependable gear for 2025.
So this is definitely somethingto turn your head toward um hop
on ultimate directioncom.
Right now, use code steep stuffpod for 25% off your cart.
Again, like I said, use codesteep stuff pod.
Treat yourself to one of these.
I think you guys are going tolove them.
(04:33):
I'd love to hear your feedback.
Let me know what you think.
Enjoy, dan Kurtz.
Welcome to the steep stuffpodcast.
How's it going, man?
Good, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Thank you very much
for having me.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Good man.
Yeah, yeah, I appreciate it.
I um stoked that we were ableto finally get this conversation
going um.
You know, I've listened to, ohman, probably both trail t
episodes and, like quite a fewof the episodes that you've been
on with finn and I was justlike I have to get this guy on
to come talk sub ultra.
So I'm glad we're able to dothis um finally have a condo.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
So yeah, yeah, I'm
very, very glad to be on here.
Uh, obviously I love, love finnand uh, we need to have another
trail t episode at some pointbut you're gonna tell him to
bring it back.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Man, I almost dm'd
him the other day telling him to
uh, like what happened?
Speaker 2 (05:17):
bring it back, get it
going it's always everyone's
schedule is always weird, andthen jack's always somewhere odd
in a, in a van, and everyone'sjust busy yeah, no, for sure,
for sure.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
How's your uh, how's
your winter going, man?
How's uh, how's training, how'slife?
Speaker 2 (05:33):
everything's been, uh
, I guess full, full honesty,
it's been a bit of a weirdwinter.
Um broke my toe in thailand andsince then um it's been.
I figured it would be a coupleweeks.
I I wanted to take a gooddowntime post thailand because I
was kind of reflecting andrealized I hadn't really had a
(05:57):
genuine downtime in quite a longtime.
Um, also, that was somewhatinfluenced by a podcast I'd
listened to about just recoveryand training and stuff.
So um wanted to take a good bitof downtime and realized after
a little bit that toe was stillpretty jacked up, um, still very
(06:19):
, very swollen after.
You know, walking around, evenso, give it a little more time.
You know, walking around, evenso, give it a little more time.
Um, and honestly, I've only nowjust done my first workout, um,
and it I mean it was like ababy workout um, but just been
skiing.
Um, I'm pretty horrible atskiing but we have really good
(06:40):
ski access.
I guess um, I can, you know Icould get on snow right up the
yard and head out forcross-country skiing and um, so
that's pretty good.
But that biking and gettingback into running, um, I've I've
run every day now for the lastlittle bit, but nice, let's talk
(07:01):
, toe.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Man, which, which one
did you break like?
An important one or not soimportant one?
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Yes, second toe on my
right foot, ouch, and I guess I
haven't.
Yeah, I guess easy to say Ibroke it.
I would be very surprised if Ididn't.
I've broken a toe before andthis seems exactly the same.
It was huge and purpleafterwards and what'd you do do?
(07:26):
kick like kick a rocket duringthe race, or like yeah, it was
kicked a kick, kicked a ropething, um, but yeah, uh, it's
been all right.
It's been all right.
I think the thing that worriesme with something like that is
just being an idiot and runningthrough something that you
shouldn't and then having anavicular stress fracture that
(07:47):
is going to take you out for thenext year.
Um, so just trying to play thatsmart and remember that
probably what I need to work onmost is just general aerobic
stuff.
Um, I guess I don't feel likeI'm losing a ton of time from
like stuff like running economyon the trails yeah, that's fair
(08:10):
dude.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
What was your
experience like at thailand?
Like I've only I've only knowna couple athletes go and do some
of the more longer stuff likethe 100 mile, 100k races but
like you ran, what was it the50k like?
What was that experience like?
How was the course?
What'd you think?
Speaker 2 (08:25):
um, it was
interesting.
So that's my third time inchiang mai now.
Uh, worlds was there.
And then I did this event lastyear.
Um, it's kind of nice becauseit's right at the end of the
year.
Um, the last two years I've hada little travel budget to kind
of you know use up at the end ofthe year.
And then, um, I was alsoexcited this year to, you know,
(08:50):
bump up and try see what 50k is,kind of like.
Um, so the trip was great.
Um, I also it was like a bit ofa just you know end of year.
Um, you know, I don't know, Ihad like a, had a breakup in the
(09:10):
fall and then was just kind oflike what's going on?
Um, and yeah, so went out tothailand for like three weeks to
kind of just get away fromeverything and be out there.
And the last couple years I'vereally kicked myself, cause I
don't know how to drive amotorcycle, but everyone's out
there, you know, riding amotorcycle or moped or something
(09:33):
.
And, um, this year I was likescrew it, like I'm just going to
teach myself how, once I getout there, and uh, be able to
actually go see the course andsee the town and um bop around
and have some freedom.
Um, fantastic, yeah, it wasunbelievably fun.
Got to see, actually see thewhole course.
Well, uh, most of the course,the very back section is
(09:55):
definitely tough to get to.
Um, and then the course wasgreat.
I really liked it.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Um, really, many bugs
like spiders and shit oh my god
, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
There was one day I
saw nine spiders bigger than my
phone yeah, no way, dude, oh mygod like horrifying.
Um, there's a bunch of reallycool bugs and I mean, it's like
I'm from maine, I feel like itcouldn't be much different than
thailand.
Um, it's just such a differenteverything.
Um, I'm like not super goodwhen it's that sunny, I'm not
(10:28):
super good when it's that hot.
Um, everything's so different.
Uh, but I really liked it.
Yeah, crazy bugs everywhere.
Um, you're always there's.
They have, like you know, theyhave King Cobras, they have, you
know, tarantulas, they havescorpions, they have, uh, asian
water monitors or at least likemore southern thailand and those
are like those get to be, youknow, like nine feet long.
(10:51):
They're like it's like a dragonyeah, it's the second largest
lizard in the world.
It's basically, it looks justlike a komodo dragon, it's just
slightly smaller, um so crazy.
So, yeah, it was.
It was really cool.
Um, a couple weird bug things Iguess did happen, like in the
race.
I realized I was, uh, one of mybottles kept being super spicy
(11:14):
and I was like, what have I donewith this?
Like, I don't think I gotanything on it, and I realized
it was these ants that I wasthat were crawling on the bottle
, right, because it's like, uh,all sugary.
So the ants were all over thebottle.
I guess they, they like, willdrop from trees and stuff.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Um, and I was just
like munching ants for a while
apparently um venomous ants orjust like normal ants, like what
was it like?
Speaker 2 (11:40):
I didn't do any.
Uh, on course, id, but yeah, itwas, it was interesting and
they were like, but the onlysensation I was getting was like
spicy, so like, not super spicy, but just like something there.
And yeah, it's weird, cause youstart I don't know what.
When did we start?
Five and sunrise was like six,40.
(12:02):
The first like long chunk ofthe race.
Um, you're in the jungle beforesunrise.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Um, wow, that's
interesting, different for our
50.
K too, like that's a very earlystart for 50 K.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
I think there was
quite a bit of climbing and so
people definitely take along.
I don't I don't remember theexact stats on the course now
because they changed the courselast minute like four times, um,
but there's a ton of peoplethat go and do it, so I think
for general public that makesmore sense.
Maybe Um, I was stoked about itcause it was made the race
(12:38):
cooler.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Do you think you'll
take another crack at it or you
think you're done with thailand?
I mean, yeah, I guess at thispoint I don't have a real need
to go back.
Um, I really wished that racehad gone slightly differently.
But, um, I know chiang mai atthis point, I know, like I know
the area, um, I'd love to go doa similar concept of thing, like
a far-flung, um not off-seasonrace, but something where it's
(13:11):
um kind of a different focalpoint than the rest of the
season.
Um, I'd love to do somethinglike that.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
But but yeah yeah no,
it's sweet.
I mean dude, with travel budget, I feel like you can just go.
You know there's like theworld's your, you can go do
whatever you want and go findyou know new places to go
explore.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
So yeah, yeah it's
interesting I, I think, I think
it's just been an interestingmix of and I mean honestly, like
I just didn't do a great jobwith my travel budget last year,
like I didn't, you know, askfor reimbursement for a handful
of things that I could have, um,but I don't know, it's like I'm
fine spending money to go toraces, that's like, you know,
(13:49):
funding the thing that I want tobe doing is totally fine with
me yeah, do what you love soyeah, I think the year before I
definitely had travel budgetbecause I dealt with like long
covet um and just couldn't trainor anything.
So, um, that one I definitelyhad travel budget left over
interesting.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Well, dude, I think a
lot of people know who you are
in the sport.
I mean, you've definitely beenlike one of the most
accomplished, like well-knownprospects to enter the sport in
the last few years.
Uh, first team all-american,like you know, amazing success
both at the high school leveland at the collegiate level.
Maybe, if, if you wouldn't mindjust give a little bit, just
give me like the five minuteelevator pitch of your
(14:29):
background, so that way we canget that to the audience and
then I'll move on to starttalking about other things.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Uh, where do you want
me stopping?
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Uh, stop when we get
to Brooks.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Actually, no, no, no,
stop just before Brooks just
before brooks cool, um, yeah, sogrew up in ellsworth, maine.
Um, we, my family, lived in, uh, you know, closer to new
hampshire when I was born, butwe did.
There was not a hospital there,so I ended up I was born in new
hampshire but we lived in maine.
So I don't know if that allowsme to truly be a mainer, but, um
(15:02):
, I can also also claim NewHampshire, so I'm good with that
.
Um.
My parents divorced when I wasyoung and then my mom, little
brother and I um moved up toEllsworth Um and uh, yeah, I
guess um.
(15:22):
Things were definitelychallenging, things were tough
um, but then ended up findingrunning and for me that
definitely um was a place tofocus too much energy.
Um, so that very quickly I inmiddle school that became fully
(15:47):
like the compass heading I guessUm I had.
I was really really lucky.
My uncle was a great highschool coach Um, he had a
handful of really really greatathletes He'd coached um.
Lou Lucchini was reallyimportant in my life, um is and
(16:07):
so he had run it.
He ran at my high school youknow, really small town, like
5,000 people, maybe 7,000 now umand ran at Stanford and then
ran professionally um, and sothat was kind of my vision.
I was like I don't know, Iguess that's a way to get to
college, it's a way to go dothings that isn't here, um, and
(16:31):
just glommed onto that and fullydecided that, at least verbally
, in sixth grade, um, but justkept plugging away at that and
you kind of knew in high schoolwhat you had to do to, you know,
get a scholarship to rundivision one.
And then um ended up doingthose things and um went to Iowa
(16:58):
state.
That was where I chose to go,um, I was really lucky to have
pretty much pick of places to go, um and got a full ride.
Um, and Iowa state was just abizarre training program.
Um, it would.
(17:19):
I don't know.
It would take a very long timeto explain, but workouts, I
would say, weren't workouts.
Um, it was not that we weretraining hard, we weren't
training high volume.
Um, the like Kenyan team wasseparated from, like the
American kids.
It was very bizarre.
Um would definitely get into itmore, if that's of interest.
(17:42):
But basically spent all ofcollege really, um, kind of
struggling with running.
Things were going like prettyshit, but I was like talented
enough to kind of eke out solidperformances every once in a
while, um, but yeah, college wasjust bad and, I think,
definitely tested my umrelationship with running.
(18:04):
Um, I mean, I came in with aclass of really really, really
good athletes and no one stayedat the program except for me.
Um, the same is true of thenext several classes, except for
one kid who's the athleticdirector's son?
Um, so the program was just bad, um.
Despite that, we did have somegood successes on occasion, but
(18:30):
a lot left to be desiredtraining wise.
So, graduated um, went homereally frustrated and just did
landscaping for the summer andum, in college, basically, your
college coach coach helps youline up like what group you're
going to go to.
Well, what coach you're goingto work with, like sponsor shit.
(18:51):
Um, and he was just totallychecked out um, he's not
coaching anymore.
He was just totally done withthe program.
Um, and so I was just kind offloating um and didn't know what
to do.
I know andy powell, who's thecoach at washington now he was
the coach at oregon, um, thepals are great.
(19:13):
So I basically reached out tohim.
He had a small pro group.
So I, you know, packed up my car.
Um, I had a, like you know twothousand dollar volkswagen
passat, uh, a little like 03,like standard, like it was great
.
I loved the car but packedeverything up in that and drove
(19:33):
out to seattle with my cousinand then trained out there for a
handful of months and um hadsome really really great
workouts, but I just wasn'tthere.
I just couldn't totally be uhstoked about it.
Um track I loved workouts,loved doing hard workouts, but
um, just didn't mean to me, likemean anything to me, like
(19:54):
running under four minutes orsomething like I just didn't
care, didn't really do anythingfor me.
Um, and then the trials werecanceled for COVID and I moved
home and then moved to NewHampshire to train with Ben true
Um, and so this is all roadtrack focus still and I'm just
spending time doing that.
And uh, the track stuff I wasfine with as long as I was doing
(20:18):
the workout for Ben Um, butwhen it came to like going and
racing for myself, I just didn'tcare enough.
It just wasn't like clicking Um, so basically ended up getting
injured.
At the same time my dad passedaway and had like a really
shitty handful of months andjust uh needed like a course
(20:41):
correction.
And so loon mountain was likethe vertical champs, which is,
you know, just down the roadfrom here, and ended up doing
that.
But it was that I kind ofdecided I wanted to try trails.
It's always something I lovedto do, just run in the woods and
stuff, but I'd never had anydistinction between running and
trail and track and road, youknow.
(21:03):
So I did white face because itwas classic champs at white face
one weekend, loon the next one.
Uh, white face was insane.
Like in the third mile there wassomething like 16 or 1800 feet
of climbing um in a mile and Iwas like not ready for that.
(21:24):
I was really fit, but not fitfor that um, and ended up
getting in the gondola up topand coming back down um, so I
like also talked myself out ofthe race.
Uh, just really frustrated.
And eric lapuma was like dude,what, you're just being an idiot
.
Like do loon next weekend.
Because I was like gonna note,I was like trails suck, this is
(21:44):
stupid.
Like you know, really bummed um.
So eric's like just do loonnext weekend, you'll do great.
Like uh, and it went well, umgot second.
And then all of a sudden I waslike on a couple us teams for
that race um, and so then thatwas like my first time going to
um anywhere.
That wasn't like a domesticrace for a track event.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
At what point sorry
to interrupt you, I'm just
curious like at what point didyou understand and start to
realize that like, okay, notonly can I'm, like trails are a
thing, but like I can actuallypossibly make a career out of
this?
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Yeah, so I think it
was slowly putting it together.
I think in college I was stuck,stuck in iowa, um, and was just
going nuts, so I wouldliterally just sit there, like
you know, and my coach was veryyou know, c's get degrees like
who cares about school, likelet's just run.
That also leaves you with ahorrific amount of time to focus
(22:42):
on and we on running, and ifyou're not training that much or
that hard you're, you just haveidle time, and so the whole
time I was just like desperatelywatching anything that was like
adventurous, outdoorsy, um, andso stuff like I got like really
glommed on to like anything, um, climbing, um, any, anything
(23:05):
that captured that.
So then it was like you know,killian youtube videos, and it
would just be on repeat, onrepeat, on repeat, um, and so I
kind of started getting a sensethat there was this like other
side of like athletic world thatwas more on the adventure
spectrum than on the performancespectrum entirely, um, and I
don't know.
(23:25):
I just had like slow exposure, Iguess, towards towards more
trail stuff, um, and throughsocial media I think I saw the
direction that I feel like trackand field and road are going,
versus where trail was going um,and I see trail growing and I
feel it's much more.
Um, I don't know you can onlyget so many cool videos of you
(23:50):
training on a track.
It's so lame and you know thatwas like that was a struggle.
It was like obviously to get tobe a like paid athlete.
A huge part of it is this, um,media side of things and I was
like there's no chance.
I want to post a video like itcould be the prettiest dirt road
, but it's still like kind oflame to only be posting that.
(24:13):
And um, yeah, I guess somewherein there I just kind of
something in my head clickedthat it is very clearly the
direction of things.
Um, um, it was watching brokenarrow, I think, actually
watching the day with um, camand Eli and Kieran and um, you
know, I just knew a handful ofpeople in there and um, my Ben,
(24:37):
my training partner, just gonedown and won the U S champs on
the road and uh, you know USATFisn't live streaming it from the
truck driving in front of them.
And then I'm watching a dronevideo of you know these guys
running up um at Palisades andI'm like this is obviously the
direction things will go,especially the social media.
So um also, it's so much moreme, so yeah interesting.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
So, dude, growing up
in the northeast, like
especially that vermont, newhampshire main area, like
there's obviously a heavyinfluence for mountain running
there's I mean not just mountainrunning but skiing, like just
outdoorsy culture in general,yeah, you know, I I find that
also interesting.
Like that it's just kind ofslept on as an area in my
opinion and it's kind of bizarreto me that like there's
(25:23):
cranmore, there's like so manysolid like legit mountain races
that are in the northeast andlike no one talks about like how
solid the northeast is.
I find that weird.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
It's interesting.
I mean obviously you know thisis gonna get me going, um, but I
mean it's also big.
So, like I, you know everyoneis like so I'm in New Hampshire
right now, um, but in Maine Iwas.
You know, I'm like five hoursfrom here, um, and on the coast
and, um, it's very different,like I'd never.
(25:55):
I'd been to Vermont one time,um, the new England
championships for cross countrymy freshman year were in Vermont
, at Thetford.
So it's just right up the roadhere, um, and you know I'd never
been out here, um, I was alwaysjust like Maine's different for
(26:16):
sure, like Northern Maine isdefinitely just like a different
thing, um, but everything issmall town.
Um, I mean Vermont, like thebiggest town is Burlington and
the population like 35,000.
Um, and Vermont has, you know,less people than Colorado
Springs.
Like it's weird.
Um, yeah, like I think Vermontis like 620 K and I think the
(26:41):
Springs like obviously there'slike a bit of a, you know, metro
area to things, but yeah,there's not a ton of people.
I really like it.
I love that there's winter, Ilove that everything's kind of
rugged and a little hard, yeah,and it seems like everywhere is
good access.
I can run from literally myback door.
(27:03):
Here is a rail trail that goes65 miles one way and it's
groomed ski trail right now forhalf of it.
The other half is plowed.
Um, and if I go you know anydirection, I can get on a trail
within it's.
You know know, half a mile thisway and then a mile if I go the
(27:27):
kind of convoluted way intolike a trail system with a 60
miles of trails that I could geton the at in there and head out
like there's a bunch of stuff.
Um, jeff colt is from here yeah, yeah, I know, joe um, yeah,
his his dad lives just up theway really.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
Oh dude, I never
realized that.
That's kind of crazy.
Noah williams yeah yeah, noahwilliams.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Yeah, so I worked.
I did this, uh likevolunteering with noah's mom, um
, whatever she does like a it'skind of like a girls on the run
kind of thing um, but forfinding our stride.
So it's a weird little area.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
There's a lot of
connections to here yeah, to the
trail space that's so wild man.
So after so I I, from what Iunderstand of your story after
you were kind of just kind ofsick of the tracks or kind of
sick of the track you came backto the northeast to kind of
start training there.
What I want to understand is,like I mean, for someone like
you and your caliber, like youcould have had your pick right.
(28:29):
You could have gone to Boulder,you could have gone to
Flagstaff, you could have gone Idon't know.
So you could have stayed inSeattle and trained there and
had, you know, there's it's likethere's there's plenty of like
training grounds that are notthe Northeast.
I'm just so curious as to whyyou chose that specific area to
go back.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Yeah, and I mean
honestly.
Right now I'm struggling with asimilar concept.
I think it's it's such a shamethat more people don't train out
here.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
But also I can get
some of it.
It's not what I like.
Like it was four below thismorning, not, you know, without
you know not factoring in windchill, not factoring anything.
Four below this morning, not,you know, without you know, not
factoring in wind chill, notfactoring anything.
Um, and I was, I was workingoutside all day and I was pumped
because it was like 25 thisafternoon and sunny and it was
like that felt, you know,decently warm and like you look
at the weather in boulder andit's, you know, been 65 for a
(29:17):
handful of days and, um, you arelike I can see how that seems
to be better training and Ithink if you don't grow up out
this way, it's really toughBecause, I mean, you can love
the winter, but it's it is justlike long and it doesn't get
warm.
(29:38):
If it gets 40, it's like areally warm day right now.
We've, yeah, it's been abovefreezing twice in the last you
know handful of weeks, um, so Idon't know, I'm not sure
entirely what it is.
I think it more people shouldbe out here.
Um, the quality of like this issuch a stupid one, but like
(29:58):
dirt roads, the dirt roads hereare fantastic, um, and the
trails are steep, uh, likethere's so many things that you
can find that are a thousandfeet a mile, um, and in the
summer there's a ton of skiresorts and so everything you
can.
You get all this grassy, steepaccess so it's like runnable, um
(30:18):
.
But stuff like the shoulderseasons are tough, like early
winter is really tough becauseall the trails are pure ice,
like it's.
It's pretty hellacious, likeit's so bad, um, but I don't
know.
I think that also teaches yousomething that has to translate
to real mountain running.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Makes you gritty,
that's for sure.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
And I think, like, I
guess, if, if it's all like
Eurocentric, I think that has toteach you something.
I think it's probably moresimilar to stuff in europe, um,
and I think I don't know, thereare races where it's snowy in
austria, worlds last year, youknow, two years ago now, um, for
this coming year, um, there'ssnow on the course, there's,
(31:01):
there's shit, um, but I shit,but I think it's good, but you
lose out, I think, on a bit ofmarketing, it seems.
It seems like the market strayswest of here.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Yes, where I'm kind
of going with this with Brooks.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
I think it's a miss
Big time dude, the number of
people that come up from newyork, new jersey, boston, like
these huge population centersthat come up here and you know,
you see, they're always out.
Um, yeah, so it's.
It's weird to me that, likewell brooks, we just signed remy
(31:41):
um, but him and I are the onlypeople east of boulder um, just
bananas.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Like there's so much
talent, like in a lot of these
areas.
It's crazy to me that I listen.
I asked tom hooper the samequestion and one of the answers
he gave me was shoe durability,which I think is is definitely a
factor.
I think that's one small factor.
It was like can their shoeshold up?
I think there's a lot more tothe fact where, like I think
(32:09):
these brands, for instance, likela sportiva is a great example,
like in in boulder, right, andyeah, a lot, and there's a good
amount of brands in boulder orin the greater colorado area um,
obviously brooks and seattle,and I think there's, I wouldn't
say bias of like region, but Ialmost think it's like bias of
region just because they'rethere, it's local, it's easier
(32:30):
to see these athletes, it's moreI don't know whereas, like,
there's not a lot on the eastcoast.
What is there?
I think there's vibram inboston and that might be one of
the few, and I think janji inboston as well there's not a new
balance in puma.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
There's, yes, yes,
often ties, but but yeah, those
aren't trail specific brands.
Um, it is weird.
I don't entirely get it, and Ido think there's some amount of
you know.
Um, I don't know if, if it justfeels like it's separated bit
(33:04):
and so I think it's not likechecked out as much.
It's not like there's some,there's something about it that
seems like less sexy orsomething.
Yeah, and I think that it'sinteresting.
Yeah, I don't, I don't have ittotally figured out.
Um, I would absolutely love ifmore people were training out
(33:24):
here, cause right now, like Benis like transitioned out of like
being a professional athlete.
He's coaching, he's stillrunning a hundred mile weeks and
is still disgustingly fit, but,um, I don't really have anyone
I'm training with.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Well, Eric's kind of
doing super long stuff right.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
So it's a little bit
different.
I would imagine eric's tough toline up with.
I hope he listens to thisbecause he's he's just tough to.
He's tough to line up with,like he's very particular on
timing and you know how longyou'll leave the house for and
stuff which I get um davidsinclair's out here now.
But he's also a bit of like aloner, like lone wolf guy, like
just trains on his own.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Um plus his ski stuff
.
I think he's now in and out ofeurope for yeah yeah, which kind
of makes it complicated?
Speaker 2 (34:07):
yeah, um, so it's,
it's interesting.
If there were more people outhere training, I would.
I mean, I would, I obviouslywouldn't go anywhere.
But and then everyone, it'salways a place that people like,
oh, definitely where I'm gonnahave kids.
But I think like that mindsetkeeps that community from being
built.
Um, and then it's not somewherepeople want to stay from 25 to
(34:32):
35 or something.
Yeah, so it's, it's interesting.
But I mean the density of trailsand like good access and ease
of stuff, like we alwayscomplain about, like J peak has,
it's Northern Vermont.
They get dumped on, um, theyget whatever their whole thing
is.
They've got more snow than likeeverything in Colorado and
(34:54):
California.
Like they, they just get dumpedon all the time but it's two
hours away and so we alwayscomplain about how far away it
is.
But then we, we also, like Istart looking at stuff and I'm
like, well, that's, that's nofarther than if you live in
Boulder to go to, like normalstuff, and I'm like, oh well, we
have, you know, killington andstuff.
Like we, we are close to stuff,um, even Boston's, you know,
(35:19):
two hours from being properly inthe whites, uh, so that's
amazing too.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
I never even thought
about that yeah, so it's really
not bad.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
So I don't, I don't
totally get it.
There's some disconnect that Ihope gets fixed at some point.
But I guess, hoping it getsfixed, it probably is like on
eric and I and tom I've got atheory, dude.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
I think it's going to
change sooner than you think
and the reason is is because,like, first of all, you see era
vipa going by, what was a whitemountain endurance, so now they
have a presence there, so thereare races.
But I think this year, with thecirc series having two races
there, like I'm happy julian,like expanded and I think, all
right now sub, now like real subultra, has a presence there
where it's like you know, plusyou've got, you know, tom with
(36:03):
suna p and loon.
Those are usually, you know,either vertical or up down
mountain running championships.
You know, on off years and evenlast year we had loon.
So I don't know, I think thepresence with circ series coming
in, I think that's going toattract, I mean, what is that?
Like 600 to 700 people race, sorace.
So if Julian usually fills thoserosters anyway, you'll start to
(36:25):
maybe turn heads.
I mean I'm curious to see, likeI'll be out there for both of
those, and I am very curious tosee, like all right, who shows
up to these, like is it going tobe the East Coast Crushers?
Like are people going to comefrom the West to go see what
it's like out here, so to go seewhat it's like out here.
So I don't know, I I would bereally excited to see more
world-class competition come outto go race at those races and
(36:45):
make it, you know, becausethey're exciting courses, so it
should be fun it's, it'sinteresting, and I think it may
be just like an issue ofmarketing or something um,
because stuff like mountwashington road race yeah, yeah
that's a weird crossovermountain world road race event,
um.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
It's like epic super
classic, like super cool, um,
but I think it's like fallen outof favor in the last.
I don't know, I'm not a goodenough historian of that race,
um, but it seems to have fallenout of favor from what it was
for a while and I'm just curiousif that's like a social media
effect or or what it is um couldbe, but I say the same thing
(37:26):
about pikes out here like I lovehikes and like but when golden
trail series leaves, like itbecomes I wouldn't say like it's
more grassrootsy vibe, but itdefinitely goes back to that
like obviously it's not going tohave the elite field that, like
you're going to attract with agolden trail series races
because it's different.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
So it could be social
media plus.
You know that's something thatneeds to get bolstered from a
lot of these races if you wantto grow in this day and age.
Like social media is a hugething.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
So yeah, I, I guess
there's there's a part of me
that really wants to stickaround and just like that really
wants to stick around and justlike post a ton of cool videos
of just you know being in themountains here, cause I think a
lot of people would be kind ofsurprised, cause there's,
there's shit on that topic.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
I meant to ask you
this.
I had this written down on yourInstagram.
You have this one video of wasit Talon that almost fell?
Somebody almost falling dude itgot like 16 million views.
Holy shit, that almost fellsomebody, almost falling dude.
It got like 16 million views.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
Holy shit, I think
we're like almost at 17 million
views.
Um, I mean it was sketchy, butit wasn't.
I didn't feel like it was thatbad.
Um, and talent, I mean talon'sdone that bridge a ton, a ton of
times.
Um, in the snow, I've done it.
The only time I'd done it wasin the snow.
Um, when I was supposed to betaking off time, when I was
(38:44):
training out in Seattle, uh, butI was like in Seattle, no
winter, like looking at themountains, being like I need to
be in the snow, um, but yeah, soyeah, that that video just blew
up.
I think people were pissed offthat we were up there and, uh,
what they thought, know, likenike pegasus or something, um,
so you got like a.
(39:05):
You hit that like instagramweird world where people were
like pissed off and like tellingus that hey, I hike every
weekend and you guys are beingidiots.
It was stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
You know that's
interesting.
I mean, I can't like believethe virality of it, like that's.
That's see, I would imagine youwould have gotten thousands of
what do you have?
A few thousand followers orsomething like that.
I would imagine you would havegotten 5,000 followers out of
that and I was like, huh, allright, this changes everything I
thought about the algorithm.
That's so weird.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
But it's interesting,
and but then it did prove to me
in some way.
It was like cause, that waslike a normal thing, but I think
, I think you end up being in aweird bubble, um, that you go
out and do these cool thingsthat do seem super sketchy to
(39:54):
people, and so if you were able,if you were to like just post
those things more often, I thinkit would be pretty successful
with that, oh for sure.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
For sure.
Plus, like I don't know, subultra scene Northeast there's a
lot of Rocky outcrop, I don'tknow.
I feel like there's a lot ofopportunity there to tell like
really solid stories on, likenot just training, but just like
everything you're doing.
You know there's a lot ofopportunities there.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
I really wanted.
There's a couple littleprojects I really want to do
that way, I think doing stuff,um, and I don't know, maybe
maybe it's this year, maybe it'snext year, um, but stuff like
katahdin doing like ascent andround trip, trying to go for
like ascent and round triprecords at katahdin um, and
having some amount of video umproject with this, doing the
(40:36):
same for washington, um, maybeStowe, I mean Mansfield, um, you
know, like the high peaks, thehigh points in the states um,
maine, new Hampshire, vermont,um, because something like
Katahdin is incredibly cool, um,really really really cool, as
cool as anything in the lower 48, like it's sweet, um, but I
(41:01):
think that would be.
That would be a cool way toshowcase things, to have it be
like.
It lends itself well to likeintense and short efforts that
are relatively short, right, um,that are rocky and, you know, a
little sketchy and well, dude,this is, you're on to something
really great here.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
So, like, this is
something I talk to everybody
about and it drives me crazybecause I feel like ultra does
such a good job at videos andstorytelling and being able to
convey this like differentdegree of suffering, whereas,
like on the sub ultra side, likeI feel like and I'll say we,
because I'm, you know, from amedia perspective, like that's,
(41:37):
that's the area I want to takethis is like we need to tell
more stories because it'sobviously it's competitive, but
in a different way, it's more,it's a faster sport, it's a
different sport, like you,there's a lot more to it.
Yeah, but I think we need to doa better job at storytelling
getting ready for these races ordoing these, maybe these FKTs
(41:57):
or high points or things likethat that are more up down or
vertical related, where you knowit's a 30 minute to an hour and
a half effort or something likethat.
Um, golden trail series nailsit, you know, like their races
and their storytelling isamazing, um, but yeah, we need
more of that.
I feel like in the sport to beable to uh, just, I don't know
make, just leak, make sub ultramore competitive with ultra when
(42:19):
it comes to uh from a mediaside I think it.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
This is entirely my
bias speaking.
I think it will be.
It's certainly more easily.
I don't.
In my opinion, it's so mucheasier to like craft a really
sexy 15 second trail video ofsomeone ripping on something
cool.
Um.
There's this one of killian atlimon sky race.
(42:45):
That I think is the coolestvideo possible, where it's like
a helicopter filming this likeridge that he's flying down.
It's just so cool, um, but yeah, I guess where would you think
that starts?
Speaker 1 (43:00):
for me specifically.
So my, my baseline storytellingwould be so, like, for instance
, like this year, what I wouldlike to do and I haven't
proposed this yet, this has beenin the back of my mind since,
like for the last like threeweeks is getting a sponsor to
help fund or just self funding,like, for instance, like Joe,
like I'm pretty close with Joe,he's getting ready for he's got
(43:22):
a couple worlds qualifier.
He's just, I think he's justgoing to the ascent right, but
like the like a couple differentlike workouts that he does, and
being able to tell the story ofthis 41 year old guy who's been
at the top of the sport for youknow, as long as he's been to
be able, and now he's gonna gofor his.
I don't like.
I can't even tell you yeah, like1000th, like a world that he's
(43:42):
trying to qualify for.
So like storytelling from thatend.
I think it starts with you know, cause it.
You know showing the father,you know showing the husband,
showing the, you know everything.
He is just like outside andmaybe he's he'll listen to this.
So I gotta I haven't pitched itto him yet, but you know, like
storytelling from that end, likefilming a couple workouts and
getting clips of that and thenlike the like, the some of the
(44:02):
key things, like the key peaks,as he starts to get more
specific, getting ready for therace and then, you know, maybe
we'll be a broken arrow andwe'll get some clips of whatever
that turns out to be like rightand then putting together like
a short film and I thinksomething like that,
specifically for him.
And then for you know, forsomebody like you, it's just as
easy, dude, like the grind, thestruggle, the process through.
(44:24):
You know, especially throughthe winter, and how horrible
that feels.
You know to be able to have togo get your ass out the door
every day, especially with abroken toe.
And then you know, kind oftaking that one step further
into the spring as you get readyfor soon to pee and those other
goals.
You know I guess you'll go out.
If you want to get morespecific, you'll go out and play
on the course a bit, and Idon't know like little things
(44:45):
like that, and then race day,what that looks like.
I just think there's so manyopportunities to really convey
in a positive, like exciting waythese stories and like what
these athletes are getting readyfor.
And you know all that like,dude, and the day-to-day too,
man, like time in the gym.
You know it's not just spendingtime on the trails and running,
it's like you know what are youdoing for your diet?
Are you eating correctly?
Speaker 2 (45:06):
like there's so many
little things that go into it
that you can yeah kind of spinoff, you know I think I do a
poor job of that.
I, I would love to and I I havea ton of ideas on a ton of
ideas and I just like don't havethe.
I haven't done like thefollow-through with posting it,
because posting is just so toughuh it's a lot of work, man, to
do all that stuff like yeah, butI'm also sitting on freaking
(45:27):
hundreds of hours of video thatI've taken on my gopro and stuff
but I just don't, I just don'tdo anything with, because it's
like you look at it and thenyou're like, oh, it's not great,
and then you're like I'm notposting it.
I wasn't going to post thatvideo of talent at all and he
was like.
He was like I'm about to postit.
If you don't post it, I'm goingto.
He's like just put it up.
I was like, okay, whatever.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
Sure Shit.
It gets 17 million views.
That's so crazy.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
I mean it has like.
I don't remember what it was,but it was like 400 000 shares,
like some bizarre.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
I guess I have it
here uh, even piggyback on that
too, like dude, like even thesexy stuff as well, like look at
that photo.
Finish between elhazine andphilemon.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
Uh yeah, at the end
of like uh headlands, like
that's crazy, that was philemonyeah, was it philemon?
Speaker 1 (46:16):
yeah, so like shit
like that.
That.
I think, just like there's justa lot of and or even dude like
the Ed mammoth, like there was a, the whole controversy thing
with all who's seen, kind ofedging, and I was like God damn,
like this is a, this is socrazy.
So there's just like all thesedifferent and you can even
create storylines around thattoo.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
Like Tim Tolson.
I think he was pretty funny inthe comments he's like I hate to
be the race director of thatLike, um, yeah, that was funny.
I remember seeing that You'reright.
And I think now, like thinkingabout it, it's just, I think you
like end up being so much inyour own bubble that you'd
forget that you're doing a weirdthing.
And then, like I think there'slike a certain ego to posting
that.
You're like what I'm doing isspecial and cool and I need to
post about it.
And then I'm usually I'mthinking the exact opposite.
Usually I'm like, oh, my god,what this person's doing is so
(47:05):
special and cool and it's not me.
But then I guess I do like, ifI'm thinking about it before you
know, once it's in the summer,like I really like going to, uh,
whale back.
It's this little local skiresort right here, um, it's five
minute drive from the house andthey have this lift line that's
right.
From the parking lot you go upand it's just like this 700 foot
(47:27):
pitch.
That's like so steep and Iwould just you know, and it's
all.
It's like four foot deep ferns,five feet deep, like it's just
jesus, hilarious.
But then I would just walk upand I would go in the rain,
Cause I was like I want this tobe stupid, like I want this to
be really hard.
So I'm going to hike up and I'mjust going to try to see if I
(47:47):
can just run down, and I'm justgoing to do that for a handful
of laps in the rain where it'slike it's impossible.
It's impossible to do so, stufflike that.
I think I guess that is weirdand would probably be a kind of
cool little video.
Speaker 1 (48:03):
And I talk about this
a lot I think there's not a lot
of people like Rachel Tomgiak.
I think in her own way does itreally well.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
Yeah, she started
doing a good job.
Speaker 1 (48:13):
I totally agree.
Yeah, and maybe Ali Ostranderis another example where it's
more, but I think it's becomemore of the borderline
influencer thing.
It's weird, though, dude Cause,like as an athlete, it's like,
yeah, your job is somewhatsocial media, but, like, your
job is also train your ass offand show up to, you know, show
up to events and do the performto the best you possibly can.
(48:36):
And it's like I don't know.
It's this weird dichotomy whereI don't know like I can see
myself and you get so focused onthe goal and what you want to
do and that's performancerelated.
Where it's like I also feelfrom my perspective, like if I'm
trying to convey a story,sometimes it's hard because you
don't.
You also don't want to comeacross like, oh, am I just
making this all about me?
Am I being grandiose?
(48:57):
Like how you know, like I don'twant people to.
You don't want to be judged ina weird way, which I think
that's probably shouldn't bethought about, but it is.
It's kind of a strange thingthinking about it from the
social media perspective too,whereas, like, if you just tell
the story the right way, that'syour organic story, I think it
could be like really popular,especially, like I said, from
the sub ultra side, to be ableto tell it it's's, it's cool
stuff yeah, and I mean thepeople that do really well on
(49:19):
social media do kind of have abit of that ego, it seems.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
It seems like that's
a positive um correlation with
being able to do well oninstagram.
Um, I don't know it's.
It is interesting, yeah, and Imean like it's weird because it
is your job, like you're totallyright, like that is a big part
of the job, like you have toshow up.
I think the weird thing thathappens with that I have seen
(49:46):
for myself and a couple otherpeople is you follow like your
peers and then people that aredoing shit that you wish you
were doing as well, yeah, and sothen you're in this bubble of
this like bizarre spot whereeverything you see on instagram
is like the weirdest 40 peoplethat are doing all weird stuff
(50:09):
that is better than you or asgood as you, and and you're like
you become like convinced ofyou know what you're doing is
just super normal and like whywould you ever post about like
that dinky little workout I'mtalking about because someone's
doing something gnarlier?
Speaker 1 (50:31):
um on that topic.
Did you know who's got a greatyoutube channel is actually remy
larue.
Like I was, I just had him onthe other day and he's great,
getting ready for the episodeand I stumbled upon his um, yeah
, dude, I stumbled upon hisyoutube channel.
I was like, oh my god, likethis is, this is amazing, like
this is the storytelling we needmore of.
And he's like pretty candidwith like being open about some
of the workouts that he does.
(50:51):
He's even like gone to a fewraces and like has like this
epic battle at breakneck betweenlike max and yeah, max and
david hedges.
Yeah, it's so good.
So, yeah, I think there'sdefinitely a space for but it is
.
It's interesting that, like whoyou follow and who you're
around and who you're influencedby, I think influences like
like some of your take on it tooas well yeah, and then, like my
(51:15):
, my buddy here, my, my one ofmy best friends here is ansel
dickie, who made that walmsley.
Speaker 2 (51:20):
yeah, um, like he, he
lives just down the road like I
, you know, it's like stuff likethat, it's like you just start
existing in like this weirdbubble.
Um, and so then, anything likelike I have a couple videos on
youtube now and I do want to, Ivery much want to build that out
this year.
Um, I feel like I'm deferringit a bit and like putting it off
(51:42):
, but, um, I'm like, yeah, I'mnot going to post a video, like
Ansel's going to go watch thatand he's going to be like what
is this?
And I'm like, well, yeah, Isuck at this, compared to Ansel,
obviously, or most people, tobe weird, the self-doubt.
Speaker 1 (51:57):
I can get that from
the podcasting perspective too.
Dude, like I'll sometimes, I'veasked finn a couple questions
and I'm like this is a reallydumb question, but I need to
know like what?
Like what do I do here?
Like what is this?
I don't know, it's there's onlyone way to learn and there's
only one way to improve.
Speaker 2 (52:11):
Right, it's like
anything so yeah, I've, I can do
a good job on that when it'sjust me like I'm doing a bunch
of stuff right now in the van.
Today I, you know, had toreplace all the glow plug
connectors, which I have no ideahow to do.
But you just like go through itslowly and, like you know, you
snip all the cables, you rip offall the connectors, you like do
(52:32):
all these like it's all simplestuff.
It's just like going in havingno idea how to do it.
I'm fine like messing up solo,but like feeling like you're
messing up publicly is anotherone that I just struggle with.
Speaker 1 (52:45):
Let's talk van.
So like are you outfitting thevan to like go all over the
country this year?
Like, what's, what's your planwith the van?
Speaker 2 (52:52):
Yeah, that's the goal
.
Um, the last two years I've haduh, an 85, uh like diesel van
Um, an 85, uh like diesel van um, and it's old, and the first
thing I did was I, when I boughtit, was I drove it up to maine,
was up there for a week, um,put in like soldered in a little
(53:12):
like faucet, put in a littlesink like got in like some basic
stuff, um, but it's just somuch work.
It was so much work to do, likeall the little maintenance
stuff, and I just we drove itright out the flagstaff, spent
the winter out in flag and newmexico up at santa fe, and then
drove it back for that sunopeechampionship um, and it was
(53:35):
great.
But I was in, I was out of thevan with my buddy and like you
had to cook, like on your knees,like you couldn't stand in the
van at all.
It was like way too small, itwas like not great.
I had the a bunch of shit gowrong all the time with it
because I didn't know what I wasdoing.
But I really wanted to be doingit and so I was just kind of
going and trying um, but youknow, everything went wrong that
(53:59):
could have, um, and so now Ibought a van and got a really
good deal on a you know old uhoh, seven sprinter.
Um, I can stand up in it, put abed in it, put some cabinets in
there, did the flooring, didthe installation, um, and now
I'm doing some mechanical stuff.
The hood's open right now andI've got the turbo intake all
(54:22):
apart and I'm trying to put inwhatever.
So, doing some of that stuff,that's been most of the days and
, you know, hopefully get out toColorado this weekend, oh shit,
really, train out there for acouple of weeks, yeah, and then
I'm planning on racing big alta,okay, like the 25k, yeah, so
(54:45):
that's in three weeks to 20 daysactually, from today, um, and
yeah, so that's the goalbasically start bouncing around
out of that um, and yeah,ideally have this for a handful
of years.
Um, just spent a bunch of moneygetting it fixed up, and so now
I have no money, um, and I'mgonna have to live really
(55:09):
cheaply hey, dude, I feel yourpain.
Speaker 1 (55:12):
I just bought a house
and uh, yup, sucks being broke,
not that fun I'm gonnadefinitely have to.
Speaker 2 (55:21):
I hope.
I hope it's less tight than uhtwo years ago.
Um, basically, I went intosunopee and if I didn't win I
was pretty hosed um, likeentirely hosed.
So so, yeah, hope it'shopefully not go that thin this
year okay, all right, let'slet's talk.
Speaker 1 (55:42):
I want to get into.
Um, well, you kind of alreadytold I was going to ask you
about the big alta, especiallylike with that coming up.
It's only in a few weeks, I'msure like that's gonna be a
sweet race.
That area is beautiful.
I know you're on the start listfor soon to be as well, but
like what do you got planned forthe rest of the season?
Speaker 2 (56:00):
Yeah, so definitely
that Sunapee cannon double.
That's awesome Sweet.
My cousin's getting married onthe day of the Killington race
up in Maine, so I'm trying tosee if I can do the Killington
race.
I don't know what.
What's the start time?
Speaker 1 (56:17):
If it's like an 8am
race, yeah.
Speaker 2 (56:21):
It's 10 done at 11.
You could?
Speaker 1 (56:24):
do it.
Yeah, I mean it's a fast race.
I mean it's it's, it's that's Iprobably be take less than an
hour or an hour on the dot.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (56:31):
Yeah.
So I'm gonna have to really seeon timing on that, and then
what timing the wedding is andstuff.
I'd love to be there and thendrive up to maine, um, but I
can't miss the wedding, um.
So, uh, yeah, the early season,basically that's what I want to
do through june, um you're, soyou're not going to broken arrow
(56:52):
this year.
No, it's kind of a weird like Ihave a bit of a gripe with a
selection race being at altitudeOkay.
No, I agree I agree with um, Ithink that's a weird move.
Um, the world isn't at altitude.
What's the thing?
Um, and so that I'm a littleagainst and, but, but also like
(57:20):
I don't know, I I much preferthe classic race.
I don't really have anyinterest in vertical races, um,
and I think I'd like to graduate, maybe towards.
I was really thinking aboutdoing the 42 K, attempting the
short trail team for worlds.
It doesn't line up in a waythat makes sense for me to do.
(57:40):
I think, um, I think, to beready to rock, cause you're
going to have to be so good tomake the world's team this year,
um, it's going to be, yeah,disgusting.
Yeah, I mean you can start.
You can start naming the long,the short, the vertical, the
classic, like you're like.
Oh, okay, yeah it's, it'spretty serious.
Um, really, really, really good, people aren't going and so,
(58:01):
yeah, I can't go out to BrokenArrow, not adjusted for altitude
, because I would sacrifice theclassic race that way, and the
classic race is more importantto me If the race was a
different place, if the race wasout here for the qualifier, I
would do the double and see whathappens.
But I think it just weighingthings out, I think it didn't
(58:22):
make as much sense.
Speaker 1 (58:24):
I agree with you, man
, I think, and I think your
background and everything likethat, especially living so like
not that far away, like you canget reps on the Soonapy course.
I don't know.
I just feel like all that youcould do, all of the little
things to ensure yourself a spoton that Soonapy course, like to
ensure yourself a spot on thatsoon to be course.
Like to ensure sorry, to ensureyourself a spot like on that
(58:45):
team, as opposed to so, forinstance, like Christian
Christian's got to come out fromUtah, he's probably not going
to come out early.
Yes, the altitude, like mighthelp him a little bit, but, like
power generation, there's a lotmore to it.
And also knowing that course sowell and if it's a matter of a
few seconds like, however quick,like close that race is going
to be, it definitely helps to beon your side, to be out there
(59:07):
more you know.
Speaker 2 (59:09):
Yeah, and I mean I
mean genuine canopy is uh, I
don't know.
You've had success out there too, and you know well it's also
like I mean, it's literally liketwo or three exits down the
highway.
Yeah, it's really close.
Um, so I don't know.
It just means something to me.
I love that it's out here.
(59:29):
Um, I think, like the earlierpoints, of like there's less, uh
, focus.
Out here it's like yeah, I wantI wish people had come to that
Kismet cliff race last year.
Um, I wish, um, yeah, I want Iwish people had come to that
kismet cliff race last year.
Um, I wish christian came outfor something like that, like a
half marathon with you know, nota bunch of climbing, but all
that's super technical.
(59:49):
It was like a half marathon,like 4500 feet and it's all
really technical.
Uh, I think I ran super quick.
I don't know, maybe I didn't,but I wish people came out for
that stuff um, I know, I feelthe same way, dude.
Speaker 1 (01:00:02):
Like more competition
in these races like would make
I don't know.
Like like the only thing youcould do is open your mouth and
like try and invite people, Idon't know, yeah I mean, son of
p, that that's just gonna happen.
Speaker 2 (01:00:16):
um, and obviously I
want someone like christian to
come out anyway, because I hopeto be on the team and I want
that team to be as good aspossible.
Oh, hell, yeah, yeah.
So stuff like that I'm pumpedfor.
I do like the two lap concept.
Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (01:00:32):
I don't know why, but
I think I've found decent
success at that.
I think that race I did up inCanada the Canadian champs for
this this year um was solidbecause it was that same idea,
um.
So, yeah, I'm pumped for thatrace.
That's kind of like a lot ofthe focus and then I want to do
like ETC.
Speaker 1 (01:00:53):
Yeah, okay, sweet.
Speaker 2 (01:00:54):
Um, I want to be out
there, just to be out there.
Um, and then I want to uh, justfigure out.
The schedule is tough.
The schedule is tough, man,Like I'm not good to go to race
broke race, the golden trailstuff yet in Asia.
Um, I have my own personalgripes about golden trail.
(01:01:17):
Um, I wish there was moredoping control.
I wish there was.
Speaker 1 (01:01:22):
I got that written
down.
We're going to get to dopingcontrol, all right, all right.
Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
We can back to that,
but but yeah, still trying to
figure out like the second halfof the season.
But the big goals um are makingthe world team, um and showing
up in spain, um and hopefully,you know, getting closer to
where I feel like I should belet me ask you a question and
you can answer this as candidlyas you'd like.
Speaker 1 (01:01:45):
if not, I can cut
this out.
I'm just curious for someonelike at your level, just because
, like you are at the tip of thespear and you've made now what.
You went to Thailand, you wentto Innsbruck and you was was a
challenge to Lena.
You also race for team USA,yeah, so like you've represented
the stars and stripes for awhile now, do you?
Speaker 2 (01:02:12):
feel pressure to like
have to make this one happen.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean it's,it's a race.
There's always pressure um toto.
I mean hell, there was, therewas.
I felt there was so muchpressure when the race was at
Sunapee.
Um, I mean, yeah, there's a lotof pressure in my head, I think
that's great.
Speaker 1 (01:02:31):
I mean shit, you did
it at sunupy, so like you can do
it.
Speaker 2 (01:02:34):
So that's yeah, it
answers your own question there
but but yeah, like I, I thinkthere was certain parts of that
course that helped me a lot onthat day um, like icy and snowy
up high and then like reallymuddy and funky and the descent.
Um, and I had been out inFlagstaff intentionally just
running on the dumbest things Icould every day because I knew
(01:02:55):
the race was going to be messedup Cause my, my buddy, matt, was
skiing there and he was likedude, the race is in two weeks
and I'm skiing glades at Sunapee, like there's a ton of snow.
I don't know how this is notgoing to be really messed up.
Um, so like, okay, okay, cool,like, so I'm going to go up to
snowball every day and just runin the snow.
Um, I did.
(01:03:16):
I did one workout where I wasdoing like uphill reps and then
I was supposed to do like twodownhill reps and the one
downhill rep, um, I had I don'tremember what it was, it was a
mile mile and a, it was a 2kwrap that I did under five
minutes.
Coming back down it was like356 average on the on the on the
(01:03:36):
ski hill.
It was stupid.
My hamstrings were destroyedfor three days, but but yeah,
nice, I was definitely in myhead about that, because it was
S, summer, p and like it's here,I live right here and I feel
like that's the event I'm goodat, and so it's like, yeah,
definitely pressure dude, Ican't wait to follow the race,
(01:03:58):
like I.
Speaker 1 (01:03:58):
I don't know if I'm
going to be racing or being
there.
Like I'll be there, but I don'tknow if it's going to be in a
racing capacity or in a mediacapacity probably more media,
just because I feel like thisrace deserves the coverage that
it needs to get.
Um, so doing justice on thatend, like, is really important
to me.
So yeah, I don't know it'sgonna be.
I'm excited for just the boththat, like I said, the men's
(01:04:19):
field is pretty stacked, thewomen's field's growing.
Like it's gonna be.
Speaker 2 (01:04:23):
Yeah, soon to be is
gonna be dope, yeah I mean you
start putting together thewomen's race too.
It's like rachel to my checkgrayson, grayson, murphy, alley
um, alley m alley o on a laurenlike there's a it's bananas yeah
, you can name a bunch of really, really good people that should
make the team and they can'tall make the team.
Let me ask you this?
Speaker 1 (01:04:43):
I should know this
it's.
Is it two spots that come outof soon ap on two, two men,
women, and then the rest of itsresume?
Or is this just horrible and I?
Speaker 2 (01:04:52):
hope.
You don't know, but I think.
Tom told me and I totally forgotthe other day he said top four
to me in passing, which didn'tsound right.
No, the team has been three,but Thailand was weird because
joe was a returning world champ.
(01:05:12):
Yep, so there's like weirdstuff that way.
Um, I'd assume we get threespots and an alternate.
We have to have like analternate, but usually the way
that we do that is we pull fromthe vertical team because they
usually are crossed over, um,but then there's people who
aren't a great alternate for aclassic team, who would make a
(01:05:33):
vertical team um, I mean, I mean, this is just.
Speaker 1 (01:05:38):
This is really
speaking out of my ass.
But, like, let's say, yourvertical team, I don't know
someone like cam smith.
Yeah, I'm smith, I love camsmith.
Speaker 2 (01:05:47):
but if it's a fast
classic race he's not as good as
he is at a vertical race, um,and so it's possible at the
classic race he could get sixth.
I don't know um, whereas it's,I'd say it's entirely likely he
wins outright in the verticalrace, um, and like I mean same
with me, like I feel like I'mbetter at the classic race but
(01:06:07):
it's I might not be that good inthe vertical race.
Um, they're not one for one,they select for different things
, um, so so yeah, it'sinteresting, like I mean
freaking.
There's a bunch of exampleslike that.
So I'm sorry for kind ofcalling out cam.
Speaker 1 (01:06:22):
I love cam no no, no,
no, I think you're're dude, I
think you're spot on, and tothat point I mean who knows
what's going to happen with, Imean, the point I was going to
make too, and I was going towait to make this until I make.
Do my predictions like, uh,when I actually do the
prediction, like thing down theline?
But like david sinclair camp, alot of these guys are coming
off schemo seasons where it'solympic selection year.
So it's like how does that playinto it?
(01:06:43):
Are these, these guys going tobe racing schema like late into
the season?
And like yeah, I don't know howthat's going to play into it, so
I don't know.
I mean, we all know like camshows up to play.
Obviously David Sinclair doestoo.
Speaker 2 (01:06:55):
So it's going to be,
it's really interesting for
something like the vertical race, where it's like I don't know
how negatively that would impactyou.
Like if you're a really goodskier, you you're going to carry
in a ton of fitness and it's anuphill race, you don't need to
be fast like flat run.
Like when we were in Thailand.
Um, the race was going to goout really quick and we were
(01:07:17):
talking about who's going to beon the classic team and Cam was
like, uh, yeah, I mean I don'tknow if I could run a mile under
five minutes right now.
Minutes right now.
Um, interesting, but in thevertical race he's gonna be
freaking great.
He's really good at that, butit's, it's, it's just a.
It'll be really cool, I think,in like three worlds teams from
now, because I think those teamswill be even more different.
(01:07:38):
Um, because a guy who is reallynasty at climbing is probably
not as good at descending as heis climbing.
Speaker 1 (01:07:48):
Um, yeah, it's more
specialization, for sure, and
you're starting to see it likeyou, I'm sure you knew like
henry alamond is like he he's Ithink he's a north face athlete
dude.
That guy is so nasty in the vk,won the kmv this past year top
five time like all all time onthe segment I can't remember
what time he ran, but like youcould say he's a.
(01:08:09):
He's a pure vk specialist, likepure uphill specialist.
Definitely his strength, yeah,yeah.
So it's.
It's going to be interesting aswe start to see like more
specialization and that, likeeven joe, like in some of those
guys like joe has no comradecanopy.
Speaker 2 (01:08:24):
What the heck.
Speaker 1 (01:08:25):
Yeah, right, we
should, I do.
He should be out there, he's soall right.
So this is my question and likeI said I I can cut some of the
stuff out if you don't feelcandid talking about.
I am so curious to see the wayyou think, especially without
going to broken arrow.
Well, how do you think thatascent race is going to play out
like dude I think remy bonet isin town and that that golden
(01:08:47):
trail series race is not goingto be until sunday?
I would imagine he'll probablydo the ascent as well.
Speaker 2 (01:08:51):
Then you get a joe
rematch, I mean what a power
move to come like.
Try to dominate the usselection race.
That's kind of.
If he does that, that's aballer move, um he might do.
Speaker 1 (01:09:01):
Plus, patrick is
going to be in town because
it'll be a um, a wrma race, soyou'll probably get patrick and
philomon.
It's gonna be bananas like upfront.
You'll have remy larue um yeah,just like.
Speaker 2 (01:09:14):
I mean remy won't go
out with those guys.
Remy always race is reallysmart.
I think remy is gonna lay offit like that race is gonna be
nuts, um, and I think jim's inthere too, like he's in the dk.
Yeah, I don't know what toexpect out of that bananas like
crazy.
Jim has spent more time doingsteep climbs than most of the
(01:09:37):
american guys, so I think that'swhat like he's gotten.
I mean, he's a very, very, verygood athlete and I think he's
gotten incredibly good at reallysteep terrain, uh.
So it's like, how do you betagainst him?
But how do you against cam orjoe, um, who are probably, I
guess no, I don't know who youwould pick.
(01:09:58):
Due to the elevation, like amcam's, like a smaller guy than
joe, that could maybe help it.
Altitude, uh, if it's highenough, I don't know.
There's, there's a ton offactors.
I think that race is going tobe.
Yeah, like you said, if, if theuh foreign guys are all there,
it's going to go out reallyfreaking fast and there's going
(01:10:20):
to be some big casualtiescarnage yeah plus mika, like
your teammate, I'm sure he'll bethere.
Speaker 1 (01:10:25):
Taylor stack, he's
going for it for sure.
A contingent is so deep.
Yeah, I don't know, it's, it's,it's going to be.
Yeah, I mean, dude, there's apossibility like that might be
outside of, like 2023, pikesascent that might be the most
competitive race ever assembledon American soil, like from an
ITRA perspective.
(01:10:46):
I want to pivot a little bit tobrooks and because the question
I have for you, especially withthe signings they made this
year like picking up remy uh,you got taylor stack, sydney
peterson, like there's beenquite a few signings my question
to you is is brooks the besttrail, like the best sub ultra
trail team on the planet rightnow?
Because I think they are.
Speaker 2 (01:11:06):
I think they're
pretty good.
Um, I think talon is very good.
I think he's got a.
I think he hasn't had a ton ofraces where he's shown how good
he is yet.
Um, he's super good.
Mika's obviously done a goodjob showing how good he is.
(01:11:27):
Um, yeah, I don't know that youstart.
You can start naming people andnow, like, I think the next
couple years, it's gonna beshown a bit.
I think the team we're buildingis really cool and, um, we're
doing a team camp at the end ofthe month, uh, in seattle, so
I'm pumped to meet all the newpeople.
Um, and yeah, I've really likedworking with brooks.
(01:11:52):
Um, I'm paid to say that aswell, to be fair, but I really I
have really liked them.
Um, I think the shoes have thething I was.
Initially, when I signed on, Iwas a little worried about what
the shoes were like.
I didn't feel like there wasmuch.
I would want to run in out here, um, but good lord, like the
trail shoes have come so fararound and now I'm like the gil,
(01:12:16):
I think is perfect for thelittle like, uh, us style, like
classic style races.
Yeah, I'm really excited aboutit all.
I think it's all.
They're investing a lot.
I mean, I think it's all theright directions.
Speaker 1 (01:12:32):
Sorry, no, I was just
gonna say from an itcher
perspective, like I I haven'tdone the like the public math
yet, but like I think, if youwere to sit down and break down
interest scores and indexes,like I do think you guys
actually have the best sub-alter, like, just by the numbers, the
best sub ultra trail team onthe planet right now, because
solomon's pretty small now, likeyou know some brands what
happened?
I dude we just I just did a uhwith my good buddy.
(01:12:54):
We just did a um, a free agencyepisode where I asked that same
question.
Man, it's got, it hasn't comeout yet.
Because I gotta edit the shitout of it, because, hey, I think
I went a little too off.
Speaker 2 (01:13:02):
Yeah, I want more
money, and so they're going into
road and track I think so.
Speaker 1 (01:13:09):
Yeah, it's a shame
like there's only 14 trail
athletes on that team now, likeinternational included everybody
.
Wow, yeah, I don't know, it's ashame.
Whereas, like brooks, when Iwas before this episode, I was
just doing some research andlike I know taylor stack, like
I'm having sydney on the likesydney on the episode pretty
soon.
Like quite a few people I likeeither adjacently or or no on
(01:13:29):
that team, I was like damn dude,like you guys also have Roberto
De Lorenzi, you got AnthonyFelber now.
Like the even the Euro side iscrazy.
Like how many people havejoined the team.
So it's pretty cool.
So I'd say like no-transcript,where it's much easier to go get
(01:14:02):
signed by ultra Hoka, but ifyou go, you can go top five at
like a significantly morecompetitive deep sub ultra race.
And I know that might be alittle like I raised my eyebrows
, but like nobody will even knowyour name, which sucks.
So I think that's totally fair.
Speaker 2 (01:14:17):
I think the I think I
think it is the feeder system
in the us is certainly easier toget.
I think the sub ultra is deeper.
I think I think it is uh and Ithink it's cool because you can
also race all the time.
I think, from a marketingperspective, if you're a brand
(01:14:39):
which after over a few yearswill influence the whole, like
sport and like, uh, just settingof the sport in the U S um, if
you sponsored a bunch of I'vetalked to Jordan a bunch about
this and this was initially whatI was like, kind of signing on
about um, it was like look like,this is the stuff that's cool.
(01:15:03):
You can race all the time.
You can have a bad race and youcan race the next weekend.
But if you have a bad race fora hundred miler, you're not
racing again for months.
You shouldn't you get so muchmore out of the athlete because
you can race all the time youcan.
I don't know.
I think it makes more sense toif you had a stable of athletes,
to have more sub at sub ultrathan ultra.
(01:15:26):
Yeah, I'm pumped on it.
I think it makes sense for thesport.
I think it'll be how the wholething grows because there's
obviously like an obvious nextstep.
If you're in sub ultra, you'relike why don't I try a 50k?
And then you're like you knowwhat that went, okay, why don't
I do a 100k, like it.
I think it supports the sportand its longevity as well.
Speaker 1 (01:15:50):
No, for sure, For
sure, not to double back fully
and then we'll start.
We'll start winding down withquestions pretty soon.
But, like the one last one Ihave for you on, like the Brooks
conversation was especiallycoming from the Northeast, was
it harder to start thatconversation for someone like
yourself or was it like, did ittake?
Like, what was the that process?
I obviously you don't have togive away anything.
(01:16:11):
That's too much information but, I'm just going to say like how
much harder was it coming fromthe Northeast Cause?
I know it's not easy to startthose conversations.
Speaker 2 (01:16:18):
Yeah, um, they
pursued me.
Um, I have some Brooksconnections Like I did live in
Seattle for like 10 months.
I have some Brooks connections.
Like I did live in Seattle forlike 10 months.
I knew Talon, who was on theteam at that point, and like in
high school I got invited tothat like Brooks PR meet they do
for like the you know handfulof like high school students.
So I wasn't like unfamiliarwith Brooks for sure.
(01:16:43):
So, yeah, I don't know they.
They reached out to me.
I'd been talking with Solomon.
At that point I'd gone to alike Solomon like trail camp
thing that they did for likekind of budding trail athletes,
I guess, and with like Kieranknow all the, all the boys like
(01:17:05):
kieran, ryan whitfield and jacobdewey yeah so, yeah, uh, it was
it kind of just like fell inwith brooks um, and I've always
liked them because there was uhgrowing up.
There's a guy a handful of yearsolder than me, um, from bangor
maine, who I know, riley masters, and he ran for uh brooks when
(01:17:27):
I was like in high school andcollege um, so I always had like
a positive affiliation um withthem and guys like garrett heath
just oh yeah, super studs backin the day, and now he's did you
beat him at loon?
Speaker 1 (01:17:42):
I'm sure did you get
the chance to race him at loon
yeah, I'd beaten him in the lasttrack race.
Speaker 2 (01:17:47):
He was in with me as
well.
We did a, we did a 5k, uh, butbut yeah, it's fine sorry I had
to ask.
Speaker 1 (01:17:58):
I mean, dude, it's,
it's competition.
Like you know, it is what it is.
Um.
On that topic of competition,I'm curious to see, like, what
is your like relationship withcompetition?
Like, are you an extremelycompetitive person?
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:18:12):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (01:18:12):
I kind of get that
sense from you.
Speaker 2 (01:18:16):
Uh, I mean, yeah, I,
I really like competition, I
really like I do miss the trackstuff where it's just really
intense.
Um, the trail stuff just isn'tas intense, because even the
short races like I think thatCanada race I did was 50 minutes
you know it still takes a while.
I miss track stuff where you'rein a 1500 prelim and the race
(01:18:42):
is, you know barely, you knowbarely, it's it's never going to
be four minutes and you or athousand meter prelim and you
have to be top two to go to thenext round.
Like I love that kind of stuff,um, because for me there's no
thinking involved.
It's just like, uh, get it done.
(01:19:04):
I really like that.
Um, and I can't say, just do itoh, I didn't even catch that.
I said that shit uh, so, yeah,that's stuff I really enjoy.
Um, I've started really gettingmy head around like I've had to
totally relearn competitionbecause I'm like I'm very high,
strong, I really like.
Uh, even on the track, I wasn'ta 10k guy, I was like a
(01:19:25):
thousand meter to like fivethousand meter guy, um, and so
that was also dude, whatever.
Um, my personality is much morethat way and so even at stuff
like these shorter trail races,I have to rewire stuff.
Uh, we were on this.
Okay so canada, we've talkedabout rammy, a bunch the canada
champs.
We were on this.
Okay so Canada, we've talkedabout running a bunch the Canada
(01:19:46):
champs.
We were on the starting line.
Remy and I both have like thelittle like heart rate monitor
on our arms and so we I, we bothlook down like our watches up,
and so you have your heart rateup and you're about to start the
watch, about to start the race.
I'm so like switched on andlike amped up.
My heart rate was like one 35standing on the start line and I
mean like he it's, it's alsolike he's much more chill than
(01:20:11):
me.
Like there's like a lot ofdifferences.
But I think that kind ofillustrates like some of the
point.
I think if I want to be able todo these longer you know, two
to four hour races I need tolike almost rewire some like
nervous system stuff.
Yeah, that's been a challengefor me.
Almost rewire some like nervoussystem stuff.
Um, yeah, that's been achallenge for me.
I think the only thing that, uh, so far has been kind of a
(01:20:36):
challenge on the trails has justbeen cramping.
Still not entirely sure what itis, but I've struggled with it
at a ton of races now, um, andit's certainly exacerbated by
certain things.
But, um, I think partiallythat's also like a nervous
system thing.
You're like two amps like needto be more chilled, um, but I
(01:20:58):
don't think I I don't know, likeif I hadn't have cramped and
had stuff go wrong, I don't seewhy I don't win that thailand
race.
I spent like enough time notmoving in the race to be the gap
between me and the winner, um,and then, like, you're trying to
run and while your legs arejust cramping, cramping,
(01:21:18):
cramping, like everything, andyou like can't feel, like you
can't move.
So, um, I wonder if there'ssome relation there.
But that might be a stretch.
Speaker 1 (01:21:28):
That's interesting,
have you like?
I don't't know, because thefirst thing I think of cramping
like you automatically think oh,nutrition like electrolytes,
water like water tests and allthat stuff like possible.
Yeah, it's possible.
Speaker 2 (01:21:38):
It's just straight up
water.
Um, I've done now like justcarrying salt tabs and just
ripping salt abs and it hasn'tdone anything Um that could be
nervous system dude.
Speaker 1 (01:21:49):
That's interesting.
Speaker 2 (01:21:53):
Like, that's my like
theory currently.
I think that at least has a non0% chance effect.
Non 0%, uh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:22:00):
Wow, holy shit, dude,
that's crazy I don't know.
Well, I hope you get that one.
Get that one figured out.
I'm sure you will over the nextfew years.
Dude, I want to start windingdown now.
I don't want to take all yourevening, I want to get to just
the ending questions.
I'm very curious to see whoinspires you.
Speaker 2 (01:22:22):
Okay, within sport,
out of sport.
I guess that's probably whygood questions are more open.
Okay, within sport, out of sport.
I guess that's probably whygood questions more open.
Yeah, I think, within, at leastwithin trail, who's providing
like a cool pathway forward?
Jack Kenzel.
I think he does such a cool jobof being um doing cool stuff
(01:22:50):
that he's really excited by andlike doing it right, um, and I
think I think some of hisapproach has just not been
muddled by like the.
Some of the stuff I feel likehas gotten in the way for me, um
, where you like I grew up Imean I'm sure I think he
(01:23:11):
probably did cross country orsomething in high school, but
like I think he was awful Um, Ithink I think he was Um, and so
I think like you don't gothrough high school and college
and you like have all these likemany years long learning
processes of like right andwrong and what you do and how
you don't do things, and I thinka lot of the times those have
(01:23:35):
kind of gone in the way for mebeing too rigid with some stuff,
whereas Jack is just like ableto approach things from a
different angle and really getthings done and I think he's one
of the best people in themountain space period and and
(01:24:01):
like Jim was.
Jim was out here for a littlewhile this summer and like got
to run with him a handful oftimes and just hang out with him
and talk with him and he wasjust great.
Like he's just so excited by itall and like just so into it.
Um, I think those are thepeople I'm really like inspired
by that are just like just sofreaking excited by it and just
(01:24:27):
like love the sport and likeI've talked with jack so many
times about like the dumbeststuff.
Like talked about trying to doworkouts up at altitude and he's
like how would you get the mostlike out of this?
And so he's, like you know,putting like ice on his hands
between reps to like, you know,like use palmer cooling to like
see if he gets more out of theworkout that way, because he's
just trying to get quality.
(01:24:47):
And then and then we're likeyou know, like the conversation
completely derails.
Then we're talking about likeit would be unbelievably cool to
be at altitude because you'reonly trying to get like the work
done.
You could be at altitude, youcould bring in an oxygen tank,
be like on supplemental oxygenon the like, you know, stair
master, just because you're ataltitude and you could get like
this insane quality of workoutin um like you know, just like
(01:25:12):
stuff, like like.
Speaker 1 (01:25:13):
But like I love these
cover dude, you need to have to
podcast with him, just uh, justlike no, that would not be
allowed to be online very long.
Speaker 2 (01:25:20):
Um, yeah, I don't
know.
I talk with jack all the timeand, uh, I love the like he just
gets so into it and then it'slike just the amount of energy
and time and thought, um, thatgoes towards it all without
having it get in the way ofthings.
Maybe, and maybe it does, maybeit's like I'm holding him on a
pedestal a bit here.
Speaker 1 (01:25:41):
But, um, do you think
with jack and I, I don't expect
you to speak for him, I'mtrying to get, I will.
I need to get him on.
No, I'm just so curious.
Is it like the navy seal on him?
That's like just like thepsycho that like has to control
every variable and like haseverything planned out?
And I mean psycho and like themost like.
Yeah, for sure, it's the biggestcompliment possible, because
(01:26:01):
like I just know, like I've likemet a couple seals in my day,
like these dudes are like soattentive to detail, like I've
never in my life seen people soattentive to detail.
And Jack, just I don't know.
I've never met him, I justadjacently, have listened to
podcasts with him in it and hejust seems like someone that
literally covers every friggingvariable in some ways, and then
(01:26:22):
at others, no, like at trophyOkima, I had to give him my
shirt because he didn't have.
Speaker 2 (01:26:27):
Like you know, he
needed like a lightweight, like
short sleeve shirt, and so it'slike you know, it's like a funny
mixture of things.
Um, and I don't know, I thinkit's probably, like most things,
it's probably nature andnurture.
Um, I do think the sport at thehighest end really selects for
(01:26:48):
like a certain level ofneuroticism.
Um, and I made some jokebecause jack and anna are, you
know, living out of a van rightnow in europe and like going
after this, these cool skiobjectives, and um, I was just
saying, like, how is it being ina van with like two super
(01:27:08):
neurotic people?
Like what is this going on?
yeah, I think fly on the wall,yeah, yeah but I mean, I mean,
jim is no different, jim, youknow, can break quieter though
isn't he like?
Speaker 1 (01:27:22):
I've never met him
either.
I've just heard, like I know alot of people that know him and
everybody has told me like he's,just he's I don't know.
Like I feel like, unless peoplelike really really know him, he
comes across as a very quieterguy, like maybe a little more
unassuming is that you took awayfrom that, or was it just more?
Speaker 2 (01:27:39):
yeah, I think the
public um deal is more that way.
But I think, if I mean I thinkbecause he did a pod with finn
out at like broken arrow, I meanyeah, after broken arrow, um
before, like western states, Ibelieve.
Uh, is that wrong?
Speaker 1 (01:27:56):
no, I think you're
right and he got talking.
Speaker 2 (01:27:58):
He was talking a
little bit, or maybe it was
after, but western states but Ibelieve that he did that pod out
at Palisades with Finn and Ithink afterwards stayed around
for hours just talking.
Really, I think the I mean,yeah, he loves it.
You don't get to be that goodwithout like being, oh, you have
to be obsessed.
(01:28:18):
Oh, yeah, not about it, yeah,yeah.
And yeah, it was super coolwith him out here talking about
things, because you can totallytell like where in his career
he's at, because he was justtotally fascinated by this
concept of like endurance andlike um figuring out how to
handle shitty weather.
Like he was really.
(01:28:38):
He was harping on about a bunchof these things like the euros.
Do that the us doesn't getright that like all these things
that he was just like clearlyjust were like dominating his
like mind.
Um, it's just because he's likethat's what he's thinking.
He's like this is what theyneed to be doing to get better.
Um like identifying, you know,and jack will do the same thing.
Speaker 1 (01:28:58):
Like you know, we're
always talking about the same
thing the interesting thingabout jim is that dude, it's
just the crazy longevity, like,I think, most of the people.
Like you see, like mariomendoza's on his way out, like
he's, I think, he's leaving theteam this year.
He just like, wrote a big thingand and like a lot of guys that
jim came into the in.
You know tim, tim tolfson's on Iwouldn't say the back end, but
(01:29:18):
like he's I think he's probablyclose to the transition point
where he'll probably move on andgo to obviously I don't want to
speak for him, but like closeto the point where he's gonna go
be race director, you know, andI think that might be his thing
.
Speaker 2 (01:29:30):
But like you see, the
class that jim came in with,
it's maybe just him and zacharound that era that are like
still left, yeah, but like youcould put zach into the same
boat, zach's durable dude, yeahthat is very durable, yeah, but,
um, I do think, like that hyperattention to detail on stuff
(01:29:51):
and really caring, like I meanjim jim I think has been fueling
at a really high rate muchlonger than has been popular, um
, like he's kind of I'd beenidentifying like the next step
for a while, um, and I think heprobably got lucky on that
specific aspect right, because Ithink if he was training how he
(01:30:12):
was before with you know,fueling styles of old, I think
maybe that is a huge hit to yourlongevity.
Yeah, or maybe not.
Maybe jim's longevity is trulyonly due to, like him, being
incredibly obsessed that couldbe obsessed genetics.
Speaker 1 (01:30:30):
You know there's a
lot.
I mean there's so much thatgoes into it too, the other
thing too, like dude, because Iknow jim hasn't broken the curse
yet of actually beating killian.
If killian goes to westernstates this year and if jim
beats him like I would, thatwould just like that's the
cherry on top of the proverbiallike sunday for his career, like
just at that point, it's likeholy shit, you did it like even
though the fact that he'salready been able to win western
(01:30:51):
states five times and win utmb,like he hasn't gotten that
signature win over killian yet.
Like that, just as a fan, I justlove, would love to see that
happen.
Speaker 2 (01:31:00):
I don't know I mean
how awesome too, like, because I
mean killian's probably moreobsessed than both Jim and Jack
together.
Speaker 1 (01:31:10):
Yeah, it's possible,
I have.
No, I don't know anything abouthim.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:31:13):
Really, yeah, I mean,
killian has these spreadsheets
he's made of like the world,like the all time greatest like
ascent efforts made, and it'slike it's incredibly complex,
like uh spreadsheets with liketon and ton, tons and tons of
performances on it, likekillian's a I was astonished by
the training that he put outthis past year.
Speaker 1 (01:31:35):
Did you see that?
That?
Um, that write-up that he putout I think it was right after
series and all and dude, likefive hours a day of aerobic,
like in the winter, um, I thinkthat was it like his baseline
for that.
And then he would do like a Idon't know some like progression
run on saturday on thetreadmill, like it was just
interesting to see like what hewas doing and then how he was
(01:31:55):
narrowing it down to get morespecific.
Speaker 2 (01:31:57):
But like he's a freak
dude, like interesting guy,
interesting character and Ithink I think the part about him
that I think is probably evenweirder is how much of a student
of the sport he is too like, um, yeah, like all those guys,
yeah, I think that's just reallya desire to be better, for sure
(01:32:18):
yeah, yeah it's, and it'sinteresting too.
Speaker 1 (01:32:21):
I mean, dude, you're
so young, so like it's I don't
know.
And as you meet these peoplethat are literally giants in the
sport, I feel like there's justso so many opportunities like
take your information, whatyou've learned already, and then
like take little tidbits fromother folks you know and kind of
apply all those little things,which is pretty dope, you know
yeah plus you're friends withjack, so you know it's
interesting no, I think I thinkjack is.
Speaker 2 (01:32:45):
Yeah, I mean,
obviously there's like like he's
a bit brash or whatever, but um, he also is just.
I think we're probably similarwhere it's like well, he'll be,
like he'll be like dming someonefor like advice because they've
done the route, and then theylike don't answer him and he's
like pissed, he's like I fuckinghate this guy.
And then like he responds twoyears later and jack's like oh
(01:33:06):
my god, this guy.
And then like he responds twoyears later and Jack's like, oh
my God, this guy's the best,like, uh, I think that stuff's
funny.
Um, yeah, no, it'll be.
It'll be interesting to seewhat happens with.
I'm hoping Jack can kind of comearound into some of these like
actual races, um, cause stufflike his time on the Prezi, um
time on the prezzy, um, some ofthe stuff he's done that way I
(01:33:27):
think are extremely fast, um anddon't get.
I don't know how many people inthe us could go think about
challenging it.
Um, yeah, so I would love, Iwould love honestly both to see,
you know, jim go towards somefkt projects, kind of like he
(01:33:48):
used to do um, and then jackkind of go towards some racing.
I would just love to see youknow a bit of those two worlds
collide a bit I do.
Speaker 1 (01:33:57):
I feel like and you
know it's I mean jack on the
racing scene, like I think heblew a lot of like, like a lot
of people were like superimpressed.
He blew some minds this yearlike kima.
He had a fantastic race.
Speaker 2 (01:34:08):
It was a few more
races in Europe.
Yeah, no, it was also a littletoo bad because, like from
perspective, like Finley isunbelievably good and doesn't
get the recognition.
But you talk to any, like anyguys who live and train out
there, they're like, oh my God,finley is unbelievably good from
(01:34:28):
10k up in like fell racing andstuff these, these certain
things, like he's a really, he'sa stud, um, and so I think that
result you could almost be likeoh, he got beat by this finley
guy, like you know he's.
That's not the same as likekillian or Killian, yeah, yeah,
but they were both well underKillian's time on a course that
(01:34:50):
all the good guys have gone anddone.
Uh, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:34:54):
Yeah, now, dude
Jack's world class man Like I'm,
I'm excited for what he's ableto do and what he like starts to
plan for in the future, and youknow, obviously, jim as well,
Like I.
As far as Jack goes, though,like I'm, I think the world is
just curious to see, like whathe continues to do on the racing
side.
Just because he was avert, likehe had some aversion to it, now
he's doing it Like it's cool.
Speaker 2 (01:35:13):
So yeah, I want to.
I kind of I kind of don't lovethe ski records, just because I
feel like the ski, just like dayto day, the snow could be a 20
delta, yeah.
So I wish he would come and dolike I really wanted to send a
resume in for the world's team.
Oh, dude, there you go.
(01:35:33):
I think he would dofantastically well at the long
race, you think?
Speaker 1 (01:35:37):
the long one, or like
yeah, I was gonna do.
He could probably compete atlike the 42k, like I think
there's but I think he's betterat the longer stuff.
Speaker 2 (01:35:46):
Um the one race he
did in europe this summer was, I
think, a bit too short for him,a bit too quick.
Um the the other race, um girede mont, um, and I think he
needs it to be a little bitlonger, and the pyrenees are
supposed to be really technical,so something like that I think
he would dude, you got toconvince him.
Speaker 1 (01:36:07):
Tell him to send a
resume.
Speaker 2 (01:36:08):
I know, put that out
in the world but I don't know if
the selection team wouldhonestly like uh value the fkt
results.
That's true that's true.
Speaker 1 (01:36:18):
Who is the selection?
Is it it's tom hooper andcompany right like who else is
part of that selection team?
How does that work?
Speaker 2 (01:36:24):
tom hooper, paul
kirsch it is kirsch okay like
max kings on there, I think.
I think it's like a smalllittle committee, okay, um, I
think nancy hobbs obviously hasto be on there that would make
sense okay um, yeah, and it's.
It's an interesting group that,like everyone's going to have
(01:36:45):
their own bias, um, and I thinkif you can't factor in FKTs, it
can limit who you could have onthe team and I think if you're
you want to send a team, that isyour best chance of right.
Speaker 1 (01:37:00):
Who's going to win on
a world stage?
Right, not just who wins thisparticular race in America, but
who's going to, you know, be thebest on this type of terrain.
Speaker 2 (01:37:08):
Yeah, so I think it's
been interesting on some of
that stuff, how it'll be fun tosee the like whole process have
to be reformed as time goes on,cause it'll be more and more
important.
It'll be under more scrutiny astime goes on.
Like you know, you have to havethe race be similar to the
world's event and it'll be coolto see that stuff happen.
Speaker 1 (01:37:30):
Yeah, no for sure,
all right.
One last, one, last question,cause I am so curious, like do
you want this to become anOlympic sport?
Like what's your take on that?
Or do you think just worlds isthe better way for us to express
our ourselves in the sport?
Speaker 2 (01:37:41):
I don't think I care
if it's an Olympic sport.
I mean mean, obviously theolympics is like the pinnacle of
of athletics, um, and I thinkthat would be really cool, but I
don't know, I don't know, theschemo stuff in the olympics
looks kind of whack to me.
Speaker 1 (01:37:58):
It looks really bad.
Speaker 2 (01:38:01):
Um, I don't think
that's what it should be about.
Um, even the race in austria atworlds for the short uh for the
classic felt incrediblycontrived.
Speaker 1 (01:38:11):
It did not feel like
mountain world, uh, stuff wait,
was that was the classic, thesection where there was like I
don't know, there was like rocksin the middle of the road or
some shit like that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're like,what was that?
Speaker 2 (01:38:26):
running through
innsbruck like through a roadway
, um, with a fake trail put in,and maybe that's cool, but you
got to do a better job than that, I think.
Um, and so much of it was road.
Um, I don't think that's supercool.
I think that event lendeditself better to the?
(01:38:48):
Um.
Short and long trail races wereunbelievably cool, I thought.
But you've got to have theclassic.
You can totally build out areally cool classic event.
Um, I think the classic race isthe hardest one, the classic or
vertical or the harder ones tolike be top five or be on the
(01:39:10):
podium.
Um, and so they should bemountain events.
Speaker 1 (01:39:16):
Um, yeah, yeah, no, I
agree, dude, dude.
I think that's a good place tocut it until we do round two.
Dan Kurtz, thank you so muchfor coming on the podcast.
That was awesome competitiondude, or competition awesome
conversation.
It's Monday.
It's been a long day, but it'sfour.
Um, I work East coast hours, soit's really fun.
Um, yeah, man, thanks forcoming on Appreciate it.
(01:39:38):
It was a great conversation andI'm excited to talk to you
about so cool.
Yeah, what'd you guys think?
Oh, man, that was so much fun.
Thanks, dan for coming on.
Really fun having a chat.
Um, you know, stoked for uh,stoked for his 2025 season, I
can't wait to see this guy makeback to back to back world teams
, um, and just continue to havejust an insane career in our
(01:40:02):
sport.
Um, it's going to be fun to seewhere his career takes him.
Uh, guys, before you get going,hop on instagram.
Dan's a fun follow.
He's's got some like a couplelike really crazy rails on there
.
One in particular of like Idon't know if it was talent or
who it was almost falling off acliff.
Um, definitely kind of crazy.
Um, I think it had like Iforget how many million views it
had, but it's pretty crazy.
It's uh, I'll tell you rightnow.
(01:40:23):
I'll tell you right now 16.3million views.
So go be 16.4 and enjoy it.
Guys, before you go and givehim a follow, you can find him
at Dan Kurtz on Instagram.
I think he would appreciatesome follows and some love.
Send him some words ofencouragement.
He's got a stacked season he'sgoing to be taking on, so I'm
sure he'd love to hear from allof you.
Dan's got fans Pretty cool.
(01:40:45):
Yeah, before we get going, guys, do me a solid.
If you're on the front rangethis upcoming Saturday, I hope
to see you.
Come on over to the ColoradoRunning Company.
We're going to be kicking off arun at 8 o'clock in the morning
.
I'd say probably like 8, 10.
I'm going to wait for somepeople to filter in.
First 20 folks through the doorgets a free pair of Cetus socks
.
Cetus was kind enough to send awhole bunch of socks to me to
(01:41:09):
be able to pass out to all ofyou.
We're going to be talking aboutsome of those Cetus products as
well which I think you guyswould get a kick out of.
We're going to start our grouprun yeah, 810, 815 out the door,
probably back in an hour or two, and then, once we're back,
we're going to kick off somegear discussion from Ultimate
Direction.
I'm going to do a fun littledemo and some free vest
(01:41:30):
giveaways courtesy of UltimateDirection.
We're also going to give awaysome hats, stickers, all kinds
of fun stuff, and they're goingto be providing some
refreshments as well, which arepretty dope.
Next, we're going to transitioninto a couple other gear demos.
Nike Trail is going to be therefor you guys to demo their
shoes as well.
There'll be two pairs of newNike shoes dropping that they're
(01:41:50):
going to be demoing, and thenwe will move into a live podcast
with none other than BaileyKowalczyk, who I'm really
excited to finally have on thepod.
This is going to be a good one.
Get to do it in person and youguys can all follow along if you
happen to be there.
This is going to be live onYouTube as well, which is going
to be super cool and, yeah, Ihope you guys can make it.
(01:42:11):
Yeah, also, if you enjoyed thisepisode, give us a five-star
rating and review on Apple,spotify or wherever you get your
podcasts.
That would be dope.
Appreciate it.
Have a great week, guys.
Thank you.