#99 - Ryan Becker - The Steep Stuff Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
What's up guys?
Welcome back to the Steep StuffPodcast.
I'm your host, james Lauriello,and I'm super excited today to
bring you an episode with noneother than Ryan Becker, one of
the most consistent athletes toprobably ever grace our sport.
Ryan was kind enough to come onthe podcast and talk about his
life.
He shared a story and I reallyappreciate it.
It was a really fun episode.
We got into some of the issueshe'd been dealing with with his

(00:21):
Achilles injury.
We talked about sponsorship.
We talked about justconsistency in the sport and how
, how Ryan has just maintainedand had the ability to just stay
so consistent and healthy, um,despite battling so many of his
Achilles issues throughout hiscareer.
Um, we talked about, you know,racing goals and how his goals
have kind of changed over thelast few years, um, as he's
moved from the sub ultra and uhto the 50 K distance, as well as

(00:47):
looking at some of the longerstuff for the potential future.
This was a great conversation.
I got to be honest with you.
It was one of.
It was really fun to see theway Ryan thinks and the way he
approaches the sport like aconsummate professional, and it
was cool to see who he admiresand who he looks up to as he's
kind of grown in the sport overthe years.
So, without further ado, I hopeyou guys enjoy this one.
It is a personal favorite ofmine.
Really, ryan is someone I'velooked up to in the sport since

(01:08):
I kind of got into it and, likeI said, he's just so consistent
and just one of the bestathletes you know potentially to
come have come in our sport inthe last five years or so.
So here we go Without furtherado, ryan Becker.
Thank you, ladies and gentlemen,we are live colors.

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Ryan Becker, welcome to thesteep stuff podcast.

(03:30):
How are you man?

Speaker 2 (03:31):
Thank you, yeah, thanks for having me.
I'm great, and yourself.

Speaker 1 (03:33):
I'm doing good, man, I'm doing good.
I'm stoked to really like,really excited to have you on
the podcast.
Like I've known about you for along time, like followed you in
the sport, you've been in thesport.
You've been in the sport forwhat?
The last like five or six years.
It's crazy to think that, likesince 2019, like shit, like fast
, time goes by fast.
So, yeah, man, just excited tofinally have a conversation and,
uh, get you on the pot.
How's your uh, how's your daygoing?

Speaker 2 (03:54):
good, yeah, going good.
I actually ran this morningwith um, dylan, uh bowman and
lindsey up at big rock, so yeah,we had a pretty beautiful
inversion over there.
I'm sure there's a beautifulinversion for the 6AM TAM group
also.
But yeah, always good to startthe day with a little sunrise.
That's kind of what it's allabout, eh, for sure, for sure.

Speaker 1 (04:16):
Now you just came off second place at what was the
Lake Sonoma Marathon.

Speaker 2 (04:20):
The Marathon yeah, a hard-fought second.
Yeah, it was good.
But Dan, yeah, Dan Jones isjust, uh, world class and he
managed to break away on the onthe final downhill.
But, um, yeah, I, I think thatwas like a pretty.
I was pretty excited with thatresult.

(04:41):
Um, obviously, if I'd managedto hold it together a little
better, it would have been alittle more talked about maybe.
But no, it was kind of not alast minute entry, but Lindsay
and I always spend kind of theTelluride off season out here in
California and that race justmade sense with our timing to

(05:02):
kind of do a hard effort afterlike a pretty snowy winter and
then have three weeks of basetraining basically.

Speaker 1 (05:10):
So, yeah, I'm super stoked with how that race went
nice yeah, man, I mean it'salways fun, I mean especially
with big alta.
And then this to like mix it upwith world-class competition.
It's always good to see whereyou're at and like early yeah so
big all times?

Speaker 2 (05:22):
definitely I was.
I was disappointed with theresults, but not with how it
happened.
I like had the flu pretty badin the weeks leading up to that
race so I like kind of missedquite a bit of training and, um,
yeah, I think that course suitsme, probably could suit me
really well.

(05:43):
Um, so I was, I wasdisappointed that I had to come
into that race after missinglike quite a bit of training.
But even for that race I waspretty happy with how it went
with.
I mean, I'd run probably like15 miles in the last two weeks
before that race or somethingdumb so it was.
Yeah, it was good to also kindof get that one, and that did

(06:05):
set me up for Lake Sonoma also,the muscle damage had been done.
So it was a nice stepping stoneand the community for Big Alta
was really great too.
To kind of come out ofTelluride is like a very small
town and you kind of can be likeheads down for a while.
So it's nice to like go to arace where a lot of your friends

(06:27):
who are your competitors areand kind of like catch up with
everyone and, you know, get yourfeet wet a little bit before
the summer really kicks off forsure, for sure.

Speaker 1 (06:34):
How's uh like how you feeling after both races?

Speaker 2 (06:37):
you starting to recover pretty well yeah, I mean
I was messed up after big alto,like I don't know if I've had
quad damage that bad ever.
But as you like had maybegathered if you had done any
like browsing on my Instagram oranything, I would like have a
notorious like Achilles problem,but the last probably 18 months

(06:58):
has been going pretty well.
So if I like leave any race andam not like oh, that was like
really damaging in a bad way tothe Achilles tendon, like muscle
damage is nothing to tendondamage, because you'll just need
a couple of days from thatanyway.
So I'm always happy to justbounce and I'm a big like
cyclist as well after any kindof race, like just hop on the

(07:27):
bike next the next day and likeif I wanted to like potentially
get a session in, but I'm notlike shuffling around, um,
because I like biking almostmore than running sometimes.
So, yeah, I'm happy to hop onthe bike, usually, um, after any
kind of hard effort, for aslong as it takes to get the
soreness to go away.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
Nice.
Let's talk about you a littlebit, man.
So you're in your, you residein Telluride.
How do you, how do you like?
I asked Lindsay this questionso I'm sure you probably knew
this one was common.
But like, how do you, how doyou like living there, cause
it's I mean, it's a great placeto train in the summer from

(08:03):
there.
Like it's got its pros and consright.
Like, how do you like that?

Speaker 2 (08:06):
Yeah, and I think that's just like more generally,
to like any it's anywhereyou're going to live ever is
like there's pros and cons.
So, as long as you that's whatI've said in the past to Lindsay
, because we were never going tobe there full time, we were
just kind of there.
She maybe told you that story,but we were kind of just there

(08:28):
for like a month and then it wasCOVID and like return to office
just kept getting pushed back,pushed back, and so we ended up
obviously staying here.
Now I don't know what is thethird or fourth year that we'll
be there, but yeah, I think justso, like I always told her,
it's just like as long as we'relike OK with the tradeoffs that
we're making for the benefitsthat we think we're getting,

(08:49):
then it's a good place to live,and I think that's the case
anywhere.
But yeah, it's it's far awayfrom like a lot of things and
you know if your car needs toget serviced, it's like a pain
in the ass to like drive threehour round trip to like get to
the nearest town that hasreasonable prices.
Like grocery prices are reallyhigh.
It is a long winter.

(09:10):
You do have like the I don'tknow if you saw that like
documentary about likedepression and veil, like in a
resort town, like there arethese like high highs and low
lows and and not just in likepartying or things like that, or
like you're like more than halfof like during the on season,
the people who are like in thetown or like on vacation and

(09:32):
you're like working, serving.
You know there's that dynamic.
But it's also just like livingin a place like as beautiful as
Telluride.
You're kind of like well, ifI'm not like doing a huge
mountain thing like you know,know you're you want to do that
every day but you can't and soyou do have these, you have to
always be like walking the lineor just like knowing the
trade-offs, having that balance.

(09:52):
So that's all to say.
Telluride is awesome and it itis hard sometimes.
But yeah, I mean even like I wasa little into schemo Lindsay I
met in Boulder on the frontrange and that's kind of why I
got into alpine a little bitbefore it really not before it
took off, but before peoplestarted talking about the

(10:13):
Olympics and things like thatand when it was like a way more
casual activity is kind of whatI mean like I'm no, like schemo
racer or anything.
I just kind of like doing somefitness skiing, um, but yeah, in
the winter in Telluride, likegetting out on the resort before
it opens, like doing a couplelaps with the dog or catching
the sunrise or just ripping acouple groomers, like, and you

(10:37):
drove there and it took youthree minutes from your house,
you know what I mean.
Like that's pretty awesome.
Um, and then, yeah, and thissummer is the reason we moved,
moved there, tried it out in thefirst place and it's like it is
world class, like it's pretty,it's pretty freaking awesome.
Um, we, I remember, likelindsay, I went to europe a
couple years ago and I was kindof just like ready to get back

(10:59):
home because the summer windowis really short and tell you
right, also, and you're kind oflike I just want to like be home
on my home mountain trails.

Speaker 1 (11:07):
So yeah, not a good place, dude.
This and the san juans are justepic.
I mean, there's like noshortage of things to do, like
there's always like basicallyday trips you can make out of it
.
And it's, I always feel likefor an athlete like yourself,
especially on the sub ultrascene and like in that 50k, like
in down scene, it's like almostlike hard to like because
there's so much to do.

Speaker 2 (11:27):
You almost like to have to hold yourself back a
little bit, right like yeah, oreven like I think um, in the
past, like we've had lindsey andI do like to race a lot
typically, but like a lot of theraces you want to do are in the
summer and then like a lot ofthe mountain projects you want
to do are also in the summer andthen.
So you have to like balanceactually, like getting the right

(11:49):
training in with like doingthose projects and also knowing
that you're going to be missingweekends to go to a race.
So it is like a fine balanceand the and the weekends do run
short every summer.

Speaker 1 (12:02):
Basically, yeah, yeah , that's interesting, it's.
It's such a cool place to live,do you think you'd?
I didn't, actually didn't, didnot ask lindsey this question,
but you guys, you think you'llbe there for a while, like long
term, or?

Speaker 2 (12:12):
um, we yeah, I mean we're we're pretty committed
like um, yeah, housing is like amajor problem in telluride and
obviously in like mountainresort towns more generally, and
we're like lucky to not havethat problem.
So we're like pretty groundedthere and, yeah, we're looking
to to be there for a while andagain, like as long as that pro

(12:37):
con trade-off list is still morepros and cons, then I think it
makes sense to stay there.

Speaker 1 (12:42):
Yeah, yeah, super cool yeah, it's just such a
great place to base out of manit's.

Speaker 2 (12:46):
Uh, yeah, it's dope, but it is.
Yeah, we're always trying to.
I mean, whether we're on thefront range or here in
california, like right now,we're always like trying to get
people to come visit us a littlebit, because, yeah, I'd love to
like show it off a little bitand also just, yeah, have have
some some more training people,or yeah, yeah, yeah, do you have
.

Speaker 1 (13:05):
I know, like willie, what's his name?
William malem was out there fora while.
I know he was training with youfor a bit.
Guy's a freak dude.
Um, what do you have anybodylike high level to train with
out there anymore, or is it likemostly solo or what's?
What's the deal?

Speaker 2 (13:19):
yeah, it's mostly solo.
Um, willie was like a greatasset and we had like run a
couple times together when welived in boulder.
But that's kind of when I waslike really just getting started
um after graduating and he waslike so far, so much better than
I was as an athlete that we Iwas never like training with him

(13:40):
in boulder but yeah, it wasawesome when he was in telluride
and we could do um he wouldyeah pull me along on the bike
path or whatever, and I meaneven for himself like he knows
how to push himself like reallyway too hard anyway, and so just
like trying to hang on to eachother because also you're coming
from like that's another pieceof telluride is, it is so high

(14:02):
and even like, if you're comingfrom boulder, which is at 52, 55
, whatever, which is altitude,and you're used to hitting like
splits that are maybe like alittle slower than you ran at
sea level or maybe you're fitenough to do that, and then you
come up to telluride and youlike try to run those splits
again and you're going to belike dry, heaving or just like
not able to run those times, butwillie would like push himself

(14:24):
to be like still running thosetimes.
So he was, he was a good one toget to get drug along to.
But no, there's.
There's another like young,young fellow in town, spencer
Keating, who's like a Telluridelocal.
He grew up there and he hasbeen kind of taking some of my
kom's the last like couple years, last summer, and he also has

(14:48):
that like insane.
Like at this point I'm, I'mlike 30, I'm not really like
going to the well and traininganymore, but like when you're
young I think you still can dothat a lot.
And so he is like putting somelike insane like race efforts
almost.
I feel like on some of theseclimbs and I'm like, oh shit,
like I that's.
That's like a motivator to,yeah, get back and get in shape,

(15:12):
that sort of thing yeah, no,that's super cool, that's
interesting too.

Speaker 1 (15:15):
Like I don't know, depending on like geographic
location, like sometimes you'llget like I'm in the springs,
right, and there's no shortageof psychos out here to train
with yeah like people take it.
So it's also like funny though,because I'm older now I'm 34
and it's like you see peoplelike leave race efforts on
strava all the time and it'slike why would you do that
versus, like you know, save thatfor the race day, I don't know

(15:37):
well, it's just easy.

Speaker 2 (15:38):
I mean like you can get like a if you put a big kom
down or something like, then youto get a hundred kudos on it
and you didn't have to travel ordo the race.
You know what I mean.
So, yeah, I think, and that'skind of like, that's still like
just social media in generalnowadays is it is just like
putting out these big efforts oryou know impressive something,

(16:00):
just to like show off a littlebit.
But yeah, I think, yeah, I.
That's the reason why I thinkum and covid played a role in
that too.
I mean, no one was really thatwasn't like in my vocabulary
like fkts before the covid era,when people couldn't race, and
so I think there is like therehas been like some establishment
and then also just likecontinued interest in like fkts

(16:22):
more generally.
But I agree with you in that Ihate when people are like oh
yeah, big fkt and it's like ayou know half mile segment
somewhere, like something done.
Like that.
This is kind of like, yeah, youshould probably just do a
workout rep and not be likeracing, something dumb exactly,
exactly yeah it's true we'll getinto travel later on, but yeah,
it's an interesting, it's afunny, funny thing.

Speaker 1 (16:43):
Yeah, I got to, I got to pivot to.
Um, let's talk about yourorigin story, man, maybe give me
like the five minute, likepitch on like tennis.
Talk to me about likeWashington university.
Oh yeah, I dug a little deep,man, I prepared for this
interview.
Um, I thought it was funny justbecause, like I'm, you got to
raise some Remy LaRue, who I'msure you met at, uh, big alta.
He's another tennis guy, so I'mstarting to see more tennis

(17:05):
guys pop up, yeah, uh yeah,soccer's on, soccer's on the out
for the pipeline to mountainright now it's just tennis maybe
?

Speaker 2 (17:14):
uh, maybe talk about that, stoked to hear yeah, I
mean I I got into running likepretty late.
Um, I did kind of just like trythe like team sport thing, but
it wasn't really like a perfectfit for me, like I never really
felt like, I never really waslike loving soccer or anything
like that.
I found tennis like a littlelater, um, either just before

(17:38):
high school or kind of aroundthat time, and I I really liked
that a lot.
I I don't know if I appreciatedwhen I first started, but like
tennis is like a huge mentalcomponent to it, um, and like
obviously a skill component morethan like necessarily fitness,
and so that's kind of like a funthing to be trying to master um

(18:00):
.
But um, it was like clear thenlike I was never gonna, you know
, do anything really with tennis.
At the time I was kind of I waslike starting to do like you
send out kind of videos tocolleges in addition to your
results with tennis, becausethey're like looking at your
form and things like that.
So I was making those and I wasstarting to kind of float those

(18:22):
around.
But ultimately, like thecolleges I was looking to apply
to it was likely that I was notgoing to be able to make the
team, maybe like a club team orsomething, but when you're
sending those videos you'reobviously not sending it to a
club.
But then my junior year I waskind I was laughing with Lindsay

(18:43):
about this.
I have ulcerative colitis,which I was kind of laughing
about Cause, like Grayson Murphyjust got this like Crohn's
diagnosis and I was like man, Ishould have been cashing in on
this ulcerative colitis thingfor a long time, but no, luckily
mine is like well in remissionand it sounds like she just got
hurt.
So it's a completely differentbut.

(19:03):
But I had a bad flare-up and asa result, I have like really
weakened bones and so I actuallygot this like really bizarre
and rare fracture in my hand soI couldn't play tennis for a
while.
I was trying to like let thisheal and so I was kind of just
like jogging around trying tostay fit for the next season and

(19:24):
then eventually did come backbut had been running more.
And it was kind of just likejogging around trying to stay
fit for the next season and theneventually did come back but
had been running more and it waskind of like pushing the
boundary of of running um, likeas an exploratory kind of thing
like, oh, I wonder if I can runfour miles, six miles, eight
miles like, and I rememberespecially like one eight mile
run I did.

(19:44):
I must have been a junior inhigh school at this point and I
was like wow, if remember,especially like one eight mile
run I did.
I must have been a junior inhigh school at this point and I
was like wow, if I haven't runeight miles, like only three
more of those, like basically amarathon, like I should probably
do a marathon this summer andso that.
So so that was my like introinto running a little bit.
And so the next high school year, my senior year, I um sort of

(20:08):
walked onto the track team andalso played tennis in the fall,
but then I was um, or I guesswould have been cross country.
But then after that I was kindof just like loving running too
much and so I stopped playingtennis and started running a lot
more and eventually I reachedout.

(20:28):
I had like got into Wash Uwhere I went to school,
washington University in StLouis, and way too slow to like
to join the team.
But the coach there, jeffStiles, was like you're welcome
and like try out, of course, andso I did eventually do that and
had already been like runningmore and more.

(20:50):
I did a second marathon thatsummer just to kind of see how
much I improved.
And the first, the first year Iran the first marathon with you
know, tennis interest training,I think around like four hours,
15 minutes.
It was like the hardest thingI've ever done.
Had to stop like several timesand like like get down on the
pavement because my legs werelike so hurting, so bad.

(21:12):
And then the next year I ranlike 256 and I was like all
right, well, if I keep doingthis, I'll probably like if I
can keep this curve up.
So I did walk onto the teameventually and yeah, under that
kind of training, curiosity plus, with the guidance of Coach

(21:35):
Stiles, I ran all four yearsthere and had a great time, had
success, a little bit of successthere, success, a little bit of
success there.
Um, shout out division three.
I think that's how you breedpeople who just love the sport.
For years, um know a ton of Done friends who don't run
anymore and I'd still love it.
So that that, I think, was likea major factor in trail running

(21:58):
down the road is cause I juststill loved running and I was
never pushed too hard to make mehate it during those like
formative college years.

Speaker 1 (22:07):
So let's unpack that a little bit.
So you're, you were D three,all American, which is like
insane, pretty crazy, like it'sjust, it's interesting to me
Cause, like you come from, likebeing reasonably fit in high
school to being, like you, justachieved such a high level
really quickly in college, like,was that just?
I mean, obviously genetics haveto play probably a massive role
, but probably coaching as well,being able to have the right

(22:29):
coaches around you to help youget to that level, would you,
would you agree with that?
Or?

Speaker 2 (22:33):
I would say coaching a little bit, um, but actually
because I was not recruited torun and was like you can walk on
, I had kind of trained myselfso that I'd be ready for this
walk on, and that was that wasbasically just running a lot of
mileage.

(22:54):
And then after then I walked onand was kind of like on the you
know JV tier of the team and soyou don't get like a lot of
handholding anything like that,and so I continued just to run a
lot of high mileage and likebuilt up my base, probably just
really quickly.
And then the next year I don'tknow if it was like sophomore

(23:16):
year I had just like taken sucha big step up that, um, jeff was
basically coach styles, waslike whatever you're doing, just
keep doing it, and so he wouldlike still like write workouts
for me and I would mostly dolike everything that was written
.
But a large component of mytraining has just been like
figuring it out for myself andkeep doing what's working, and

(23:37):
at that time it was just like aton of mileage and so so
coaching does play a role,obviously, obviously, but part
of the appeal of running, Ithink, to many people especially
, I mean when you're growing,like that is, you do get better
at it every year if you justkeep doing it.
So for me that was just likedoing it to like probably an
unhealthy amount that I thinklike directly it did directly

(23:59):
lead to my Achilles injuries.
Um that one summer I wasrunning like 130, I think at 140
mile week, but a ton of 100mile weeks for for years and
then it was just like ultimatelya little too much for the
achilles but it did get me likepretty fit in a relatively short

(24:20):
time span.
So mileage is mileage does work,but it will also break you if
you do it in the wrong way.

Speaker 1 (24:28):
Let's talk about the Achilles both Achilles tendons,
cause I you were pretty candidin Instagram posts, like
semi-recently, about like howyou considered before last
season getting in like surgerieson both of them.

Speaker 2 (24:39):
Um, when I did some research for this, uh, just like
you said, like you you'd kindof had struggles with the
achilles tendon all the way backto college too, so this is
something that's been going onfor a long time, right yeah, yep
, I, I, I fully tore my lefttendon at um d3 cross nationals
my junior year, which I well,luckily it was like 400, 200

(25:02):
meters from the finish line so Iwas able to finish and that was
my first All-American too.
So it was like such a bizarremix of like this really high
moment, but also like in thenext week I realized that I
wasn't gonna be able to run forlike months, so again kind of a
high, high, low, low, but sothat was kind of the left side.
Ultimately I didn't needsurgery then and got back into

(25:27):
it eventually, but I had alreadybeen running that high mileage
and I knew it had worked and soI still tried to rush back into
it and I think that was that waswhen like the right one started
going as well and like I reallydidn't allow the left one to
heal completely during mycollege years, and so it that

(25:49):
led to me like taking a ton oftime off after graduating and
just getting into biking moreseriously, which has had like a
super positive impact on myathletic career.
But but yeah, I mean, the lasttwo years of college being so
injured year and a half, I guesswas like a really tough time
because I just been feeling likelike I said like I got better

(26:09):
every year and I was runningmore every year, and then to
just feel like and I'd neverbeen injured because I, my
running career was so short bythat point, then then be injured
for like so long was like areally really tough time.
But uh, yeah, we I spent a lotof time on the altergy that that
spring and um, yeah, my senioryear was kind of a bummer

(26:30):
because you you plan, of course,like this perfect season for
yourself when you're just likeriding these highs.
And then I didn't end up racingthat much senior year but
luckily I was still able tostart um cross nationals and
yeah, somehow like a ton ofaltergy miles like paid off
again, um, for that race.
That's insane.

Speaker 1 (26:51):
Oh man, dude, how did ?
How did trails come into themix, like at what point in time?
Was like 15, 16, you do, youran your first, at least that's
what I saw an ultra sign up.
But, when did you start gettingthe itch for that?

Speaker 2 (27:01):
I had moved to Minneapolis for my first job out
of college and there's like apark there that a friend of mine
had recommended.
I go to Afton State Park, whichI know Justin Grunewald also
runs a lot at.
He had, like I remember alsoseeing like on Strava at the

(27:21):
time, like who's this guy thatcan like run so freaking fast
out here?
But anyway, so that was kind ofmy first foray into like
running a little more on trailsmore intentionally.
But also, like growing up inAppalachia and Tennessee, I did
run on trails.
It was just kind of like Ididn't know that trail running
was like a sport and even likein Minnesota, like trail trail

(27:44):
running.
There was like a Minnesotastate champ for trail running at
Afton, but it was never like Inever thought it was like a
global phenomenon or anythinglike that.
Um, but I was still interestedin running and I was, I was
still trying to run at a highlevel and, um, my teammates and

(28:04):
I from college as well as likeeveryone else who's on this site
uses, use this really outdatedlogging site called logger run
and um, noah drotty also usedthat site, even as a
professional, and so we justwere like obsessed with noah.
We were like see these insaneworkouts all the time.
And I remember that it has likea messaging feature for an

(28:29):
activity and I had, I think Ijust messaged him on log run
like something, and we becamelike a little close and he was
like, hey, man, like if you areserious about like getting into
running or like running at ahigher level, like come out to
Boulder and stay with me andjust like see what it's all
about.
And so I had I had taken like atrip out to see him.

(28:51):
I was like instantly hooked onBoulder.
And then I was just like, man,how can I like get out here,
Like I have to just somehow getout here?
And so I applied at my job Iwould like talk to my manager to
see about um telecommuting.
It wasn't remote at the time,it was telecommuting and so he
was like, yeah, it's fine withme.
And so I moved out to boulderthat summer must have been 2018

(29:13):
or 2019 and um noah didn't havea spot at his house.
But he was like, hey, I knowthis guy who has like spots at
his house, that kind of likerotate for athletes.
Maybe you could stay with him.
And that was Andy Wacker.
And so I ended up staying atAndy's house and I had just
gotten off of like a vacationwith my parents in Banff and I'd

(29:37):
done some running up there andBanff is like so amazing,
beautiful, and was doing like alittle trail running up there.
And then I moved in with Andyand he was like, oh, why don't
you like go on this run with me?
And we went up to Brainerd andI was like this is exactly what
I did on vacation, like it's theexact same thing.
And I and when I was onvacation I was like, oh man,

(29:57):
it's so beautiful, but like thisis not my everyday life.
But here I was in Boulder and Iwas.
I was like man, I could makethis my everyday life and
training.
And so at the time I was likekind of, you know, testing the
waters with a little like shortcourse in 70.3 triathlon.
But he took me on that one runto brainerd and I was like no,
I'm doing trail running.
And so that was kind of thetrail running, um switch, yeah

(30:21):
that's crazy man, and he wasalso and more important, not
more importantly, but he wasalso like a pro with nike, who
is like nike was paying him torun on trails, and so it was
like here, here is a path likethis exists, which was also very
new to me at the time.

Speaker 1 (30:38):
Yeah, it's insane to me to think like how many
careers andy has like had hishand in and like showed so many
people like it's crazy.

Speaker 2 (30:45):
I mean the joke used to be like if you lived in
boulder, like even the peopleliving in boulder, like there
was a 30 chance you lived withandy at some point, you know
what I mean like like an athleteof any kind.
Like lived with andy at somepoint and that was before, like
all the trail team stuff.
It was just like him just likehelping people, like get their
footing in boulder, so it it islike amazing yeah so crazy.

Speaker 1 (31:09):
How long did you stay in boulder for?

Speaker 2 (31:12):
um, I was there for three years, I think.
Um, it is, andy's house is alsowhere I met lindsey.
Okay, she moved in as ahousemate, so that was also, um,
good timing and convenient, butLindsay and I moved out of
Andy's place, like around orduring COVID, and that's when we

(31:34):
eventually moved to Telluride.
Gotcha, gotcha that makes sense, dude.

Speaker 1 (31:37):
It's so crazy to me because I can remember watching.
It might have been the 2020, itwas either 21 or 22.
I think it was the october yearwhen broken arrow there was,
like they moved the vk and the23k to october and I think I
remember seeing you on the.
I think that was the year youeither got second or third.
I can't, honestly can'tremember.
Um, you've bought, you've runit so many years but you've had
so many fantastic finishes.

(31:58):
But I remember seeing you onthe live stream and I was like
damn, this kid came out ofnowhere.
It's like I had like someserious finish both at the 23
and the VK.
So it's just interesting to me,like how you kind of jumped
into the sport and have had I'dcall you especially.
I mean, dude, we're like fiveyears on now at this point Like
you're one of the mostconsistent athletes on the sub
ultra scene, like easily, in myopinion.
What do you think is the?

Speaker 2 (32:29):
cause dealt with so many injuries.
What do you think is like thesecret to your consistency and
how you've able been been ableto do for so long?
Um, I think it's just like alittle running more generally,
which is kind of like the typeof running I like to do, and so
for like I, I have sort ofcarved out this like space in
the like I.
I love racing vks, but I'vedone a lot more in the like 50k
distance and a lot of that isjust because of the availability
of that type of race,especially domestically.
But, um, I think for me, likethe 50k is like this, like

(32:53):
perfect threshold race, which isalso and I was kind of chatting
with johnny about this theother day, we were just like
talking about training a littlebit I just love doing like
threshold work, like a ton ofthreshold work, and like in
college I like did a little morespeed because that's what you
kind of have to do.
But like I just love going outfor three hours and kind of
hammering on the bike or on therun or on skis, or like uphill

(33:16):
skis, nordic skis, and like athree hour hammer fest is
basically just a 50k race and Ithink for me, like that's just
like, like it's what I like todo, like in training, and so it
kind of makes sense that that'salso like the race distance I've
gravitated towards as well,gotcha and it's led to, I mean
just like so much consistency aswell.

Speaker 1 (33:33):
Like what does your training look like now?
Like, especially like with thetequila stuff.
Like do you like obviously havelesser mileage but more miles
on the bike?
Like what does that look likefrom time to time?

Speaker 2 (33:44):
Yeah, it has changed a lot Over the years.
It's taken a really long timeLike now I can kind of look back
on this older period of my life, but even when I was in Boulder
, you just remember this likeathlete that you used to be and
you kind of like put that personon a pedestal and are always
like striving for that even ifit's not your best interest.

(34:04):
And so I was always kind oflike trying to get back to like
120 miles a week, 100 miles aweek, and it's taken a long time
to like be like no, that's likehow you used to train but it
probably wasn't healthy for youand there's other things you can
do anyway.
But yeah, and boulders, kind oflike split time wise between

(34:24):
cycling and running.
Like I remember thinking likekind of my perfect week was like
a 15 hour week where seven anda half was running and seven
half was biking.
But now, being in Telluride,it's really seasonally dependent
and, like with the Achillesstuff, I've also like learned
over the years that you canstill get the work in even if

(34:47):
you're not running, and thathealth is really like a lot more
important than like hitting anumber of run miles on the week
and so if I feel like a littleniggle or something in the
tendon, I can just like shut itdown for four days and just bike
or ski or whatever.
Um, I can just like shut it downfor four days and just bike or
ski or whatever Um, so my runmiles, like my average run miles

(35:12):
, can be like zero miles a weekto like.
If I had like a really healthyand week in the summer where I
was like really excited aboutevery run, I might hit 90 like
once or twice, something likethat, but a lot of biking and,
um, definitely in in the winterlike quite a bit of skiing also
yeah, dude, I think like one ofthe things that just blew me
away was last year your postwhen you came away at eighth, at
broken arrow in the vk therewas this most stacked vk and

(35:34):
like you were pretty candid.

Speaker 1 (35:35):
You're like, dude, I didn't really train that much
like I was trying to do like my,my achilles have been blown up.
I've been dealing with this andyou still had an amazing finish
in such a stacked field.
It's bananas.

Speaker 2 (35:47):
That race was so far off my radar because, yeah, like
you said, I was planning onhaving had Achilles surgery like
weeks before that race.
But there's like a local uphillrace in Telluride called the
Skidula in the winter and theRundula in the summer, which is
just the g?
Um ascent course.
And I did the winter oneknowing that I was going to have

(36:09):
that surgery and I was kind oflike, well, if my Achilles, like
if I blow my Achilles duringthis, who cares?
I'm like going to get surgeryin two weeks anyway.
And then I did that race andhad a like a long cool down back
to the parking lot and I waslike I can't, neither Achilles
like hurt at all during that.
And then so I just likecanceled the surgeries and I was
kind of just like that.
I mean, that whole year that VKat Broken Arrow was the start of

(36:32):
it was just like we're justgoing to be like really cautious
, but if things feel good, likemaybe we'll jump into a couple
of races and that was thekickoff.
But but again, yeah, that wholewinter was just was all because
I had taken, I like reallymessed it up in the, in the fall
or maybe even the spring, andso I took like a ton of time off

(36:53):
.
I don't think I'd run for formonths, four months or five
months, something like that, andthat whole winter and it was
all just cross training or, youknow, skiing and biking.
So that again just proves likethat.

Speaker 1 (37:07):
Proves that like you don't need to run a ton of miles
to like be good at running yeah, that's fucking nuts dude, how
you're able to produce like andyou had a great season, I mean
like, I know probably not toyour standard, but like still
like.
Even once you did it, speedgoat was insane.
Like you had so many solidfinishes, that like and then you
go and win Kodiak.
It's like come on.
So my thought where I'm goingwith this is like do you plan to

(37:28):
still have the surgeries atsome point?
Are you just going to keeprolling?

Speaker 2 (37:31):
I think I mean, unfortunately with Achilles
stuff like if you get thesurgery there is a good chance
that you will be able to fixwhatever problem you have.
But you also sort of likediminish your ultimate like max
capacity that you can put thetendon through, ok.
So it is kind of like a delayis long and that's that's kind

(37:52):
of like calculus I was doing forthe surgeries to begin with,
which was like what is my likelife outside of running?
Like Because I wasn't evenrunning and I would still wake
up in pain, have to like hobblearound the house for three hours
before like warmed up enough towalk normally, and so I was
like, if that's happening, likeit doesn't matter if I can only
run at 80% capacity, but like Ican't live my life like this

(38:14):
anymore.
So that's kind of like what I'mstill thinking, but again, like
I seem to have like sort ofbeen able to figure out what is
keeping it at bay right now andpossibly have healed it.
We'll see, but, um, for thetime being I I'm not thinking
about surgery.

Speaker 1 (38:32):
Yeah, have you.
So that's an interestingquestion too.
Like, have you gone to a bunchof pts to get this thing like
figured out?
Like people playing around withit and seeing like all right,
maybe I can.
Yeah, I have a good buddy ofmine shout out to ace who just
like he just got calc, he had agrowth on his calcaneus and he
had to get that thing chippedoff Just a Haglund surgery.
So I see a lot of people withstuff like that.
But if it's just the tendon, Ifeel like maybe there's ways

(38:53):
around that.

Speaker 2 (38:54):
Or Haglunds is yeah, you definitely like need to get,
you need to remove that part ofthe bone to have the tendon
like move smoothly over it.
But, yeah, I would say like alot of time with PTs, but more
time is just like scouring thedepths of the internet Because,
like, even when I was in collegeand this first happened, at
least at our school's PT clinic,to me it didn't seem like there

(39:17):
was any understanding of thedifferences between, like
midpoint and insertionaltendonitis, let alone like
tendinopathies.
And so, like a lot of I've,I've just like learned so much
about the Achilles tendon andlike what has worked for me,
like in college it was, um, itwas midpoint, but since
graduating, both of them are areinsertional and that is like a

(39:40):
little more severe.
You get a lot less blood flowdown at the heel bone, but
they're completely differentstrategies for how you're going
to like repair or like even makethe pain go away, for for
midpoint versus insertional.
So even learning that years agowas like an unlock for me.
Um, and then there are likefortunately, now there is like

(40:01):
kind of this explosion of thisum, you know, like well-rounded
athlete on like instagram,youtube, hybrid athletes and as
a result of that.
You also see like a little morelike pt content, or at least
that's what my instagram feed is.
It's kind of this and so thereare like more people are talking
about more ways to like stayhealthy in a holistic way and,

(40:23):
as a result, you kind of seesome more of that.
But yeah, it was a lot of yearsof just like reading a ton of
like pub med and just likereading any research article on
tendons generally that I couldlike try to understand.
But, um, but yeah, and andthat's what I I feel like I've
coached a lot of people throughAchilles injuries.
At this point, like people willreach out to me all the time

(40:44):
like I just had this flare up,what do you think like how's it
gonna go?
And I try to just say peoplethose like hundreds of hours of
research that I did and justlike tell them exactly what's
working.
But yeah, I think there's still, there's still like interesting
findings coming out of liketendon health and strength, but
hopefully the Achilles one isgoing to be, at least for me

(41:05):
personally, like a bygone era.

Speaker 1 (41:07):
Oh, dude, I love to hear that.
Well, I gotta ask you this thenare you, do you spend a lot of
time in the gym like you do alot of lifting and stuff like
that, or ply I?

Speaker 2 (41:16):
I don't do any, any plyos or lifting, and it's not
something that I like recommendto people at all.
I just like I haven't carvedout the time or I, like you know
, I'd almost rather if I have,like if I went for a two-hour
run in the morning and I havetwo hours in the evening, like
I'd rather just like go bike fortwo hours makes sense, and I
know that doesn't make me likethe best athlete that I could be

(41:37):
, but like it's just like morefun to do that dude more about
whatever works for you.

Speaker 1 (41:42):
Man.
Everybody's got their own,their own way of getting to a
race, so you know some.
For instance, dude cam camspends like five hours in the
gym a week.
The kids have monster.

Speaker 2 (41:52):
Yeah, I have seen some of his videos, yeah, and
they get pretty.
And it's not to say that Idon't want to spend time.
It's just like you do have alimited amount of hours in the
day and it's kind of just atrade off weekly hours, but he
certainly skis a ton, likethere's no shortage of fun
factor in his life.
Also, it's true it's true.

Speaker 1 (42:11):
All right, dude, let's I gotta get to, uh, the
aiming thing I've been trying tolike I this is something
conversation I've wanted to havewith you for a while,
especially on the podcast.
So to me, you are one of themost like I said I said this
earlier you're like one of themost consistent athletes that
there is in the sport.
I it is dumbfounding to me asto why you don't have a sponsor
yet.
Like what do you think?

(42:32):
And like are you looking forone right now?

Speaker 2 (42:34):
Yeah, I mean, I'm definitely looking.
I, if you can figure out ananswer, you just feel free to
message me anytime of the nightor day.
But yeah, I think the sport haslike changed a little bit.
Obviously, there's like a lotof conversation around um like
what you're doing on your socialchannels and even at the like

(42:56):
pro influencer kind of grayingof the line, like I think and
and I should say also like mybackground is in um marketing
and brand analytics and so likelike I totally understand that
like a brand might want to likebe paying someone who has like

(43:16):
10x more eyes than like a proathlete.
So I understand that narrative.
But it is like a littlefrustrating to feel like you've
done everything right in someways and are still kind of just
like coming up like just short.
Or you know, there's also likelike I don't know how many
conversations you've had withathletes around like contract

(43:37):
renewals or things like that.
But there is like a timingwindow and there's there's like
a budget window and there's ateam fit and who's the athlete
manager and what are theypersonally looking for and how
are they biasing, like what kindof team they're building and
how does that person fit withthe brand and there's like a
million factors and so, yeah,for some reason just hasn't
lined up for me.

(43:58):
But I can certainly understandall of those viewpoints and
especially in isolation.
But yeah, kind of when you likestep back for, for me
personally not to get to likejust focus on me.
I I do sometimes be like man,how am I, how am I still not
sponsored?
Or like, how or what can I addmore value to the brand?

(44:21):
And I did like have a littlestint with speed land and that
was kind of on more like an Iwould not call that like really
a sponsorship and the way thatwe're talking about is more of
like an ambassador level type ofthing.
Um, but and and they were at thetime like they really just
wanted a lot of content and andit's not to say that they were

(44:42):
like hard to work with or anyanything but um, it was kind of
just like I understood what theyneeded as like a really young
brand at the time.
But and maybe that's that's partof what makes like a good pro
athlete to begin with is eitherlike having the availability, or

(45:02):
maybe your partner is intophotography or your group of
friends take a lot of photosduring your training runs, but
like that's how you can justlike pump out like a ton of
content and then and now, Ithink that is like very
important to brands.
I think maybe we're having likeslightly more nuanced
conversations about partnershipsand sponsorships now, but at

(45:24):
least like as early or as moreas recently as a year or two ago
, like it seemed to me likepeople just wanted like a shit
ton of content, which is totallyfair, I mean, if that's, and
again like if that's what theirmarketing manager wanted, if
that's what their brand managerwanted, like that's still fine.
Or even like I mean you canhave the same conversation
around like like satisfy, youknow they're, they're like going

(45:48):
for a certain brand aestheticand I don't think they're like
really all that interested inthe like performance piece.
They don't really care if youwere like second or a hundredth,
but like what story can youtell over those 200 miles that
you ran?
Like that is what's valuable tothat brand.
And so there there are.
There are these nuances, ofcourse, that with each brand,

(46:08):
but um, but yeah, I, I'm,definitely I'm, would love to be
sponsored.
I think that and that's, that'skind of a growing or not a
growing, but um, a maturing ofmyself as an athlete, like out
of college or whatever.
That was kind of like that wasthe dream and or that was like
that was a piece of the dreamthat was so major that you

(46:29):
couldn't like have somethingwithout that component.
And I've definitely likematured to the point where it's
like no, I'm like really justlike interested in trail running
and I'm interested in thelifestyle of just like being an
endurance athlete and what itcan unlock for me, and I'm going
to keep doing that, whether ornot I have certain shirt on or
wearing a certain pair of shoesor things like that.

(46:51):
But but yeah, I mean, for a lotof people like, maybe not for a
lot of people, but at leastthat was like my like really
deep craving was to have thissort of like honestly just stamp
of approval, to be like you arethis good and this is like a
company that's telling you thatyou are and you can kind of take
that out.
But but yeah, I think I thinkyou do gain more confidence and

(47:17):
mature a little bit as you, asyou get older.
And that's not to say thatpeople can't do that until they
cross 30.
But, like I know, there's a lotof mature young athletes out
there as well, but for me ittook like a long time to to sort
of separate those two worldsand and really, um, you know,
not be not angry, but just like,yeah, disappointed or confused

(47:40):
or lost, or I mean even lastyear, like I really thought.
I remember thinking like duringKodiak, if I win this, like
I'll be sponsored.

Speaker 1 (47:52):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:53):
And it was just like crickets.

Speaker 1 (47:56):
Well, dude, I I said this to Lindsay offline after I
had her on the pod last week andI was like it was like one of
those things.
It's like what else do you wantfrom me?
Like, what else do you want meto do?
You know, I think that was thefrustrating aspect of it was,
like you know, you go and winKodiak.
You've beaten, quite like quitea number of already sponsored
athletes, many of your peers.
You're widely respected by yourpeers.

(48:17):
I just find it frustrating, likeif it was me, I'd be very
frustrated, because it's likewhat else do you want from me?
You know, like I can, I canclearly do this, I can clearly
do all these different things.
It's like why and there is alot of athlete managers that
listen to this podcast.
Hopefully, hopefully, somethingcomes out of that.
But, like you know, I don'tknow I think it was worth the
conversation mostly because, one, for the way I feel and two,
because you wrote this likebeautiful Instagram post man.

(48:39):
That was just like and I thinka lot of like I know, kieran,
they commented quite a few, uh,guys that I think peers that
really respect you, you know,really understand that Cause I
think a lot of guys are in thesimilar position, you know.

Speaker 2 (48:52):
Yeah, and I mean it's .
It's tough as well, cause, likeI said, like either that was
like a race that was too late onthe year or, like you know,
roster spots were already filled, that sort of thing.
But it's also like, if you're abrand like, you might just be
like more interested on likesigning a young person who can
like knock it out of the parklike and almost to a certain

(49:15):
extent, like you could say thatconsistency is like a negative,
and I've thought about that aswell as like what do brands
actually want to see?
And you might want it as abrand like you might not really
care about like a dozen secondplace finishes at a bunch of 50
Ks, like you might just want tosee like four DNFs and one win

(49:35):
at like an insane race, causethat's the thing they can talk
about more.
You know Lots of swings.
Yeah, and so it.
Yeah, it's a little frustratingto feel like you're not
rewarded in that way, but, um,but again I understand the
perspective from a brand or atleast that's my speculative
understanding Like I don't knowfor sure, of course, but yeah,

(49:58):
it's tough.
I mean, yeah, kieran, Iremember when I was first like
really getting into mountainrunning in Boulder and I was
pretty young and he must, Ithink, must be like a year or
two younger than me, I think heprobably just graduated college,
um, but yeah, he was.
He was like racing really wellat the Cirque series and um, he

(50:21):
had this, like you know, reallygood look.
He had like the long, likeflowing, curly hair, like he, he
had it all, he had the look andeverything.
And and I think maybe he was onlike some ambassadorship with
with solomon at that point orsomething, but um, but yeah,
that's it's.
He's another great example ofsomeone who it seems like had
done all the right things andthen either like he had just not

(50:45):
had that one race that someonecared about, or he was just at
the wrong time of year orsomething, and and now and then,
and that's the problem also ifyou don't have the momentum,
like sponsorship begetssponsorship, and so if you don't
have the momentum going for you, it's really tough to like
start again from zero.
Um, when you feel like you'rejust kind of like rocking up to

(51:07):
a race in a black t-shirt orwhatever and just doing your own
thing, it's kind of hard tocatch people's attention.
Yeah, even if you're winning.
They're kind of just like Imean, yeah, yeah, even if you're
winning.
I think, like david sinclair islike a perfect example of
someone who's like you know howlong was he unsponsored and how
how many insane performances didhe have before then?
So it's and it's his story moreof a branding one or like a

(51:30):
social media frequency one.
But there, that's just.
The point I'm getting at isthat there's all these factors
that could be at play it's somuch.

Speaker 1 (51:37):
Not athletes.
I mean david sinclair, justlike you, like world class, like
world beater, you know, andit's like he's another one that
you know out of the blue thisyear, I guess time with craft,
but like it took a long time,dude, like you're saying like it
took, I mean he was like leftsolomon like years ago and just
kind of never signed withanybody and just kind of did his
own thing, which is weird.

Speaker 2 (51:56):
But yeah, yeah, yeah, which, yeah, I mean to that too
.
I think from an athleteperspective it is at least I
like really respect the peoplewho are like I don't have this
like big team, I'm still goingto like show up and like beat a
bunch of people, like I'm stillhere to race, I'm still like an
athlete.
So like, yeah, I think I likerespect the hell out of that

(52:19):
journey, but it can befrustrating when you're the one
living it.

Speaker 1 (52:23):
Yeah, no, dude, and I think I really appreciate you
being candid about it, like, Ithink that was the big question
was just like you know you wrote.
I really appreciate you beingcandid about it.
I think that was the bigquestion.
You wrote this beautiful postand I think, like I said, it
resonated with a lot of people.
I think it's a story.
Your story is one that needs tobe told and heard.
Dude, I don't want to just sayconsistency, but you've had so
many top finishes On thesub-Ultra scene you're a Hall of
Famer at this point, dude.

Speaker 2 (52:45):
I'm not joking, I don't know about that You're
probably pretty close.

Speaker 1 (52:48):
I mean, if you like, look at your body of work easily
.
You know when you're comparingdudes.
Like I said, consistency meanseverything, so it's interesting.
Well, let me ask you this, notto pivot too hard, but like what
kind of shoes are you rocking?
Like what are you running thesedays?

Speaker 2 (53:10):
that was kind of the unfortunate piece to kind of
getting into that like momentumanalogy, which was kind of just
like I was with speedland, whichwas a shoe that like I really
wanted to love, but it justdidn't work with my tendon and I
kind of stuck with that for alittle too long and maybe some
other factors were at play butit just like really aggravated
it.
So I'm like very particularabout footwear now.
I think like, and I've tried, Ithink it's yeah, kind of funny.

(53:33):
Also like living in Telluride,we don't.
We have like one like mountainshop that has like some lost bow
stuff, but you're not likegoing into SFRC or something
like that and like trying outall the cool new stuff.
So I'll just do these likehumongous orders on running
warehouse and just like try outa bunch of shoes and then like
send them all back.
Um, but honestly, for the lastcouple years, for me nothing is

(53:54):
still topping the like adidasspeed ultra, which again like at
a certain point, like I knowBrian Whitfield, I've seen an
Instagram post from him where helike or let's drop a post to
like blur out his shoes for no,no free or cross out the Nike
sign you are you know what Like?
should I even be pumping up theAdidas on this podcast without
getting any kickback?
I don't know.
But now that shoe is isphenomenal and it's very.

(54:17):
It is a very specific type ofshoe and I think it fits the
type of running that I like todo.
It's got like a humongousrocker in it.
It doesn't have a plate, sothat is again like not really
beating up your tendon.

Speaker 1 (54:28):
That much um stability wise it worked for
moderate heel to toe offsetstability is decent.

Speaker 2 (54:34):
I mean I think, yeah, there's more stable shoes out
there.
I'm like a really aggressiveforefoot striker also, so there,
I mean you can run in any likeflat shoe and it's probably more
stable.
But the I mean I think like Ihadn't run in a ton of road
super shoes before, I had run inthose and I've run in some

(54:55):
sense and I still think I wouldI would potentially choose that
shoe for a road marathon oversome of the road super shoes on
the market.
Like I just think it is thatgood.

Speaker 1 (55:05):
Interesting.
I've never tried it on.
I have a lot of friends thatwear them, but that's
interesting.

Speaker 2 (55:12):
It good, interesting.
I've never tried it on.
I have a lot of friends thatwear them, but that's
interesting, it's.
I mean, it's it's like probablyone of the most unique shoes to
try on, because the rocker isso aggressive, wow.
But like, yeah, it's.
It's not comfortable, like walkaround in the parking lot the
first time you put it on, butwhen you like start running and
again like if you have a verycertain type of um stride, yep,
some people are gonna like itand some people are really not
gonna like it do you run likelike?

Speaker 1 (55:29):
what did you wear when you like ran broken arrow?
Last year?
Did you run in agravix as well?

Speaker 2 (55:34):
I probably did interesting wow either either
that or those speeds, but I'dprobably the agravix.

Speaker 1 (55:40):
Yeah, interesting okay, I gotta one thing.
Going back to sponsorship, Iforgot to ask you, like I know
you're, you have a relationshipwith, like dylan bowman has he
been like a mentor for you overthe years?

Speaker 2 (55:51):
a little bit.
Yeah, I mean, I think I I don'tknow if I would say mentor so
much as kind of like a friend, Isuppose, like anyone can be a
mentor to you in like somecapacity.
But um, no, I mean he, yeah,funny, this is actually kind of
funny.
I was on Speedland before Dylanwas to be clear, but no, I mean

(56:15):
, when he came over that reallylike projected that company and
gave them like an insanevisibility and it seems like
it's been a pretty amazingpartnership for both of them,
both both parties.
But but no, yeah, run with himtoday.
He comes out like we ran withhim at hard rock last year,
every now and then I, yeah, Idon't know if it's like a mental

(56:37):
relationship, but I appreciatethat he is like open to run with
me, uh, every now and then, orreply to a dumb text or
something like that.
Um, he's recently been like alittle more vocal about, like,
um, mindfulness and mentalhealth and coming at it from an
angle that I have sort of alsolike approached it, and so we've
had some conversations aboutthat.

(56:57):
But, um, but yeah, I think he'sjust like a phenomenal
personality for the sport, andnot just personality, but he's
like putting the work to growthe sport, um.
So yeah, I respect the hell outof him, let.
But he's like putting the workto grow the sport, so yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:10):
I respect the hell out of him.
Let's talk about the mentalhealth piece of it.
This is something I've actuallybeen trying to approach lately
and I think a lot about is themindfulness like, especially in
our type of sport, like there'sonly one winner, obviously
there's three people on a podium.
It's very hard to do very well,right?
So you put in a ton of work, ashit ton of work, and you hope
that you're going to shine onrace day, right, and make it
happen.
When it comes to the mentalhealth perspective, like, how do

(57:33):
you deal with that?
Like how do you kind of centeryourself and not think about the
result and rather just like goand show up and do your thing on
race day?

Speaker 2 (57:40):
I don't know if I would have said this had you not
preface the tennis piece, but Ithink like having that little
background of like like tennismatches are like as much a
mental battle as a physical one,and so that is like a piece of
it where you kind of like tennismore so, like you're directly
against one other person everysingle match and so it's like

(58:02):
win or lose every time there.
So I think like I have that issort of my like background.
Then comes like collegiate orhigh school, like one year of
high school and then four yearsof collegiate running, where
you're running for time andpositions and that's really like
you can be.
I mean you can win a track raceand be upset with your time

(58:25):
still in college.
You know what I mean, but butthat's like so that's like
another level of kind of a likea negative for running, and then
so when I moved to trails, it'slike a totally different thing
and I think this is what draws alot of people to trail and why
we're seeing like a lot ofinterest and participation in
the sport is like while it iscompetition, it's as much about

(58:48):
like finishing or likeconquering the race as it is
about like where you finished.
And so for me, I wouldn't saylike the pressure is off, but
the pressure is also like lessthan it has been at these other
points of my life.
And I've also like I'm lookingat it through a different lens

(59:09):
with, like if you I don't knowhow much you scrolled back I
I've at the at the beginning oflast year, I kind of started
making more of these postersabout like gratitude for going
to these races.
Because I did, I wasn'texpecting to be able to do that
kind of anymore, or certainly inthis capacity, and so I'm
obviously I'm like definitelylooking through like a very
grateful lens into how I'mracing now and and I think that

(59:31):
is helping performance also.
But but yeah, I think trail, Ithink trail has the opportunity,
versus like some otherendurance sports, to for for
people to like be a little moresatisfied in the result, no
matter where they finish.
So I don't know if that's kindof what you were looking for,

(59:51):
for.
That's that's how.
That's how I view trail running, trail, mountain running right
now Um, whether or not that'severyone's experience, I don't
know, but I think it has thatopportunity to do that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:01):
So when you're standing on a start line, like
next to Eli Hemming, david Rocheand Johnny little Lima, right,
like do you get nervous to racethese people?
Or like are you just like no,like I'm gonna make this happen,
like how does it?
How do you feel on race morning?

Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
or on the start line.
I mean it depends on the timeof year with that race,
especially coming out of winterI think I kind of got to this
earlier is like I haven't reallyseen any of these people in
like a really long time.
Like there's no like trainingcamp and telluride in the middle
of winter.
And I'm certainly not leavingtelluride, even though I want to
, like a lot of people, see eachother all the time in Boulder

(01:00:33):
or whatever.
But for me it's like kind of anexciting time to like see your
friends again and kind of seehow.
Because that's the thing too,when you come out of telluride,
even in the summer, you're notreally sure how fit you are
compared to people who have beentraining lower, because all of
your workouts are like reallynothing looks good in telluride.
You're not running any fasttimes like, you're not running

(01:00:54):
any fast gap times or anythinglike that.
So for me it's usuallyexcitement, especially for those
first couple of races of theseason.
Um, in the past I woulddefinitely probably like get a
little more nervous, um for arace that maybe I thought
mattered um a lot.
But there there's also timeslike at Kodiak you mentioned.

(01:01:18):
I kind of I think I'd doneenough racing.
That was like one of my lastraces of that season and I knew
the shape I was in and that racewas like just kind of like I
know the shape I'm in and ifnothing goes wrong I should be
able to win this.
So it depends on the time ofyear whether or not I have like
confidence, excitement to seefriends big all to the pressure

(01:01:40):
was also like really off for meAt least.
I felt because of having thatsickness where it was kind of
like if I run well here, that'samazing.
If I don't run that well, itwas expected of.
Like if I run well here, that'samazing.
If I don't run that well, itwas expected so.
So that one was like a lot morefun for me how do you, how do
you view competition?

Speaker 1 (01:01:58):
are you a competitive person?

Speaker 2 (01:02:00):
I?
I think, yes, but I'm also likea pragmatist.
I I understand, like what mystrengths and weaknesses are too
, and so, like there are certainraces where certain races like
suit me and others don't, and Imight be more competitive at the
ones that do.
Or there's like parts of thecourse that are like I am like

(01:02:21):
more competitive on, but, um, Idon't know, I've I've heard like
some some of these, notnecessarily on your podcast, but
just like an athlete interviewstyle.
I think some people are like alot more competitive than I am,
or I think I'm more competitivewith myself than I am with like
another person, but some peopleare like really out for like

(01:02:42):
that personal competition andthat's not really like my style.
So much Gotcha, gotcha.

Speaker 1 (01:02:47):
No, I think it's a healthy place to be in.
Like I've met, I've talked tosome psychos, some people on
another level.
It's like damn.

Speaker 2 (01:02:54):
I thought your brains wired a little different.
It's like wow.

Speaker 1 (01:02:57):
Like I don't know if running is the sport you should
be in.
It might be, should besomething else.
Yeah, 2025, and you've gotBroken Arrow on deck.
I know you're signed up for theVK or the Ascent, I should say,
and the 46K.
Are you planning on starting atboth of those?

Speaker 2 (01:03:16):
Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 (01:03:19):
Obviously, intentions and goals change.
Obviously, both of those areselection races for Worlds.
Is Worlds possible?
Is that a goal?
I should say.

Speaker 2 (01:03:30):
I think it's a stretch goal.
But I'm not expecting to makethat team at all.
I think like if I have the bestday of my life, and then you
know what is it going to be, 60%of the field like somehow
doesn't have the best day oftheir life or has a worse than
average day.
That's kind of the only way I'mlike making that team.
But um, no, I think it'll justbe exciting to kind of I've

(01:03:52):
actually never raced the 46k atBroken Arrow, only the 23k, um,
a number of years ago, and soI'm just kind of excited to do
that course.
I I'm like excited for thatcourse.
I think it can, could suit me,especially if the snow melts
deceleratingating quickly thisyear, and then I just I do love
racing VKs a lot, so I don'tknow, I think I'm just excited

(01:04:13):
for both distances and thecompetition should be really
deep in both, both events.

Speaker 1 (01:04:18):
So it'll be exciting yeah, it's gonna be bananas.
Do you and this is a personalquestion, I can cut this out if
not, if, if broken arrow doesn'tgo the way you want it to go,
because I know there'sapplications as well Do you
think you might apply Because Ithink you got a good shot, dude,
on some of the vertical stuff?

Speaker 2 (01:04:34):
Yeah, I don't know, I hadn't considered submitting an
application for either distance.
Actually, it just seems morelikely that it would be like if
Cam or Eli didn't make it it,they would get chosen on
application anyway, or yeah, andI don't really see a world

(01:04:55):
where neither of them make oneof those distances and then.
So, yeah I, I suppose I shouldjust submit an application, just
to like check my you know basis, but but no all right, think
about it, you never know.

Speaker 1 (01:05:13):
I don't dude.
I don't think eli's been veryvocal about wanting to go.
I don't know if he's, likereally stated that goal or said
anything about it.
Like, I think is he just morefocused on cccc is the goal this
year, which means interestingthat kind of takes him off the
board.
So I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:05:25):
I think there's opportunities there that people
might not yeah and people havedifferent yeah, different things
, but I don't know.
Worlds only comes once everytwo years.
Ccc is going to keep beingthere, so it's true.

Speaker 1 (01:05:38):
What else, uh, besides broken arrow?
Um, like what was it?
There's like a.
There's a tahoe race, like aleadville tahoe or like
leadville based tahoe race.
Is that?

Speaker 2 (01:05:46):
yeah, um.
So yeah, l Lindsay and I, likeI said, we kind of spent a lot
of time here and I've biked alot of that course, um, just on
mountain bike and gravel bike,and I know I would probably like
something like that.
So I did sign up for it and,yeah, it does have that
Leadville qualifier with it.

(01:06:06):
So that's something I'minterested about.
So, yeah, that that Tahoe race,yeah, so yeah, it does have.
It does have a Leadvillecomponent.
Um, and after last year's kindof like second second chance in
the sports, um, I like floatedthis to a couple of people, so
it's, it might, it's, I think,think fine now, but I'm

(01:06:27):
interested in running leadville,yeah, and so that would be like
a huge step out into theunknown, but it would be.
That's kind of my, my like agoal.
When I like started setting out, I was like okay, or I guess
not a goal, but like way stretchgoals, like you somehow make
the world's team, then youshould focus on that.
But then I was like I guess myb goal is like run Leadville 100

(01:06:52):
and so that.
So it'd be, yeah, pretty crazy.
But I think, like again, goingback to like the ASUs and the
type of running I like to do andthe fact I live at 9,000 feet
is like that's Leadville, and soI think that course could like
suit me really well.
Um, I'm definitely interestedin it.
It's something that you know.

(01:07:13):
It's got a ton of lore.
I knew about it in collegebefore I knew trail running is a
thing you still know aboutLeadville.
Um, and even back then itpiqued my curiosity.
So, yeah, I'm, I'm interestedin it could be it could be a
crazy summer if I, if I do that.
So, yeah, I'm like I'mdefinitely nervous about that.

(01:07:35):
I just did McDowell 50.
That's the longest race I'vedone.
I did that last year and it wasnot without problems.
So I have like a lot to figureout, slash, figure out during
the race if I did it.
But I don't know, it would becrazy and I kind of feel like
like I was saying earlier, likeI have had this sort of like
second chance at this sport andagain, like I spent a lot of

(01:07:59):
time in when I was 29, just likedoing a ton of reflecting and
it is kind of like, what else doyou want to do Like you're not
going to have every opportunityunless you like, start taking
them.
And I was like, yeah, I do wantto run this race, so no time
like the present and not gettingany younger, etc.

Speaker 1 (01:08:16):
Let's do it, dude, I love to hear it.
Man, I speak that one toexistence.
I can't wait.
I hope you well.
Obviously you'll probably getin, but like I can't wait to see
that happen, bro, like that'sgonna be, that's pretty sick
yeah, it'd be crazy, we crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:08:28):
We'll see, we'll see.
I recently just got this likenew job and I think I'm going to
have like my hours working likeskyrocket.
So I'm a little nervous aboutthat.
Um, but again, I think if youjust care, care about something
enough, like I'll, I'll find thetime to train and do it.

Speaker 1 (01:08:46):
If you want bad enough, you'll, you'll get it.
Yeah, yeah, what, uh, dude,what's nutrition figuring out
for you?
Like, are you, are you big intolike solving that puzzle, or is
that kind of?

Speaker 2 (01:08:54):
I have.
I have recently been likereally interested in it.
Last year I like got nauseousat like a ton of races and
couldn't, like didn't reallyfigure it out, was thinking it
was all these other factors.
Um, and I have been with knACsince this is, I must be like
two years and a little bit atthis point, um, and and I will

(01:09:18):
use their products like all thetime in training, but sometimes
not always in racing.
Um, it wasn't until the releaseof this like boost line that
they had like a pure carb option.
Anyway, there's often likeprotein and fat in their stuff
which didn't really work with me, um, especially during like a
high intensity effort.
And so, yeah, recently againnot sponsored, but Lindsay, my

(01:09:44):
partner, has been working withum Vic, the nutritionist that
like is very famous, gettingmore and more famous, and he was
like, oh, you like need abetter sweat test.
Like you should check out thish drop thing, which I don't know
if you've heard about that yeah.
Yeah, it's kind of just like amonitor you can wear, um, yeah,
and so we've kind of beensharing that.

(01:10:05):
And the first couple ofsessions I realized that my
sweat rate was like incredibly.
I mean people have higher sweatrates, like I know Patty
O'Leary has like an insane sweatrate, but my sodium is really
really high, and so I've been,yeah, experimenting with getting
like a little more sodium whileI'm racing or just training as

(01:10:26):
well, and so far that seems tobe helping a lot.
And, yeah, I'm also sort oflike I pushing the upper limit
of what I thought I could takecarb wise.
I just saw that um, which forme is like like McDowell, for
example, and I think like thefirst couple hours of big Alta I
was like around 140 grams perhour, maybe a little higher Um,

(01:10:47):
but I just saw that Cam Werf,during his like Ironman split,
did like over 200 an hour.
So I mean like it's like yeah,it's it's possible to do like a
high carb something, and that'snot to say that is like I know
carb stuff changes with likebody size, body composition, so
it's not like every singleperson listening to this podcast
should be like I'm gonna try tolike get as many carbs and I

(01:11:09):
possibly can like you shouldstill do the testing.
But yeah, it's been kind ofinteresting to see that you can,
at least that I can take morethan I I thought I could, and
even as recently as a year ago Iwas not taking anything near
this amount of sodium or carbsinteresting.
Yeah, it's crazy like theprogression that we're seeing in
our sport now, people actuallystarting to figure out like what

(01:11:29):
yeah, it's like meteoric,honestly, yeah, yeah, and even I
should credit johnny, because Iremember I was having like a
gel before the rut and he waslike you know, that has no
sodium in it, right, and Ididn't have any idea that it did
.
It didn't have any sodium.
So he kind of like startedkicking off me like thinking
more about this and then, yeah,it was really like Lindsay and

(01:11:49):
Vic that were she's been likedoing a ton of work behind the
scenes and yeah, I was kind oflike a man.
I should probably try to figurethis out a little bit dude.

Speaker 1 (01:11:58):
Johnny is one of the most like technical and like
savvy and like dialed humansI've ever met my entire life
yeah, he's definitely yeah, forsure yeah, like a very.
I was very interested to talkto him.
Like he's got like a.
Did he like post like I don'tknow?
He put up something like acouple months ago about like
some sleep thing he uses likesome sleep mask.
That like he's just a verydialed human.

(01:12:18):
It's interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:12:19):
Even when we were living.
So Johnny also lived in thathouse with Andy during our
overlap with Lindsay and I.
But yeah, even back then I knowhe was like experimenting with
some like recovery stuff andlike red light therapies and
things like that.
So yeah, I think he's dialed,but he's also like curious.
You know he's curious to trynew stuff.
I'm less so on like that sortof thing, but I'm like I will

(01:12:44):
try out any supplement that issafe for it.
Yeah, I'm curious about likelet's hear that.
What are you?

Speaker 1 (01:12:50):
taking what's on the stack.

Speaker 2 (01:12:52):
Nothing crazy right now, but yeah, I'm on kind of
just like um like a sleep stackand char cherry pills right now.
I also a big unlock, maybeunlock, maybe just pure placebo.
Um, is that swiss rx has like atendon pack?
I have been like using that forthe last couple years, um sort
of on and off, but yeah, big oncreatine, iron for sure you take

(01:13:17):
creatine, do you really doesthat?

Speaker 1 (01:13:19):
this doesn't like bother your muscles at all, like
with holding water or notholding water no, I mean that's
yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:13:23):
I'm still amazed there's been so many studies on
creatine and there's still, inendurance sports, this like huge
stigma against taking creatine,because they're like, oh,
you'll just gain so much weight,like on a five gram dose you're
not going to gain any weightyou might.
You might gain one pound, butit's nothing, yeah, but more
importantly, I mean back to likecreatine is also like really

(01:13:44):
good for mental health becauseit's it supports your brain too.
So or for like depression.
So even it's just like a goodsupplement to like add to your,
to your daily stack anyway.
But, um, no, I mean it's thelongest studied supplement in in
modern history.
There's like basically no sideeffects at the doses that are
being recommended.
So I I can't recommend itenough, not to not because it

(01:14:08):
has like such insane benefits,but just because it is so safe,
it's like it would be, and it'sso cheap compared to like a lot
of other things like peopleshould just try it.
Yeah, no, dude, it's like itwould be and it's so cheap
compared to like a lot of otherthings.
Like people should just try ityeah, no, dude, it's interesting
.

Speaker 1 (01:14:20):
I mean, from what I've read on it, like it's
supposed to, if you get like aterrible night's sleep, it's
supposed to like completely likewipe that away and like some
like it's, the neurocognitivebenefits are supposed to be
insane on it I I haven't heardtoo much about creatine for
sleep, but um, but I won't.

Speaker 2 (01:14:34):
I won't uh, argue against anything until I've read
a paper that says otherwiseit's, it's, it's supposed to be.

Speaker 1 (01:14:39):
Like dude, you know I've been.
I take um, oh man, I do.

Speaker 2 (01:14:43):
You know, just like the little things, like I just
started taking more vitamin dand zinc, and just like what it
does to your immune system, likeyeah it's like so zinc, though
you do have to be a littlecareful, because if you're
trying to use it to get over asickness, if you've already been
loading with zinc, then yourbody will respond to it like
much, much more slowly really.
So, but I mean for daily health, like it's fine.

(01:15:04):
But like if you're like, oh, Ilike just got a colder, I feel
like I have a cold coming ontime, like slam a bunch of zinc,
but you're already taking zincin a multi, in like a medium to
high dose, like it's gonna havelike a tiny effect so that's
kind of just like a, but it'snot to say don't take zinc as a
multi.

Speaker 1 (01:15:20):
That's just like a cautionary zinc thing do you
know the brand first endurance,yeah, I take.
What is it?
The optimum hp?
It's like a vo2 booster withlike yeah, I, I uh at one.

Speaker 2 (01:15:31):
at one time I was stacking um um optogen, hp, um
Swiss RX, nitric oxide and uhalt red beat pills and that was
like too much, but and I wouldonly do that kind of like around
race times, but that is kind oflike a let's like leave no

(01:15:54):
stone unturned type of thing.

Speaker 1 (01:15:56):
But again like a performance benefit from it.
Like I, it's hard for me totell what's just the optimum HP.

Speaker 2 (01:16:01):
I don't know.
I mean, there's so much betaalanine in that Like you can
feel your skin tingling, butlike, is that going to do
anything for endurance sports?
I don't, I don't really know.
And that that again is like Ikind of like try to live my life
through the pro con list whichwe've like talked about already.
But yeah, if you like startputting the cost of like all
this into a spreadsheet andyou're kind of like well, what
benefit am I getting?
And did I really just spend$500 last month on supplements?

(01:16:24):
Like what am I doing?

Speaker 1 (01:16:26):
It's so true.
It's so expensive, like dudethat optimates P alone's like 80
bucks above.

Speaker 2 (01:16:30):
Like it's then the multivitamins in the same yeah,
yeah, or it's the same thinglike with athletic greens, like
you ever try athletic greens Itake it all the time.

Speaker 1 (01:16:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, it's the same yeah, Itook it.

Speaker 2 (01:16:39):
I'm like, yeah, I noticed a difference, but did I
notice a hundred dollars a monthworth of difference?

Speaker 1 (01:16:43):
probably not no, no, if they get you on the shipping
man, if they just charged me 70,I think I'd be happier with
that.
Yeah, I gotta hit up haydenhawks.
Gotta have him send us somesome.
I think he's like the onlyathlete now on the trail scene
like actually sponsored by them.

Speaker 2 (01:16:56):
Yeah, it's crazy um, oh yeah, that's another.
That's another space I couldtalk a lot about for a long time
.

Speaker 1 (01:17:03):
Yeah, dude I I'm gonna have to like send you some
dms, like pick your brain onthis, like I am performance
enhancement, like any way youcan from, like the natural stuff
like I'm always interested in,because well and it's.

Speaker 2 (01:17:13):
it's funny too to like talk about like performance
enhancement in terms of likepercentages or things like that,
because then you like I meanduring the like initial super
street era, it was like you'regonna get like four percent
running economy benefit and thenlike how much can you get from
supplements?
Or how much can you get fromlike strength training, or like
how much can you get from justlike an extra five hours of

(01:17:33):
aerobic work?
It is kind of fun to like yeah,do that little Tetris game and
see what works for you Maximizeyour yeah, no, it's interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:17:43):
All right, dude, I got to get into.
Let's get into some endingquestions.
I'm very curious who inspiresyou?

Speaker 2 (01:17:49):
Yeah, so I was prepared for this one.
This is one of the things Iprepared for because I listened,
like I said, I kind of likelistened to a ton of your
podcasts over the last two daysjust getting ready, and then I
started like going through whoactually inspires me.
It's different people fordifferent things but then it
just got so out of hand.
I don't know if I should justlike run through this I have

(01:18:10):
like literally 30 people here orif I should just like pick a
couple top ones.
But I invited first I I putcompetitors and I think my my
like three right now are justlike Eli, cam and Seth are kind
of like as a, they're like myinspirational competitors, I
think.
And yeah, eli, I think becausehe just is so kind and down to

(01:18:36):
earth and then is still and isso good Like it's almost like
it's it's crazy.
But yeah, I think he's like areally amazing human and
obviously what he's doing in thesport is like so fantastic.
So I, yeah it.
He like pushes me to be better.
You know like I want to show upbetter on race day because I'm
going to be if I'm going to beracing Eli type of thing.

(01:18:59):
So he's definitely Cam.
I think Cam is always just kindof like my VK competitor and
I'm just always like I want torace him more in VKs.
I want to be better than him onVKs, but I also want him to be
better than me so we can likepull me to faster time.
So and then I think, yeah, thiswhole like schemo federation

(01:19:21):
thing it's been like really fun.
Watching his like journey fromsocial media and seeing him do
all these races and kind oftrying to make a name for
himself and for the UnitedStates, um like over with the
big boys in Europe has beenpretty, pretty cool to watch.

Speaker 1 (01:19:36):
It's kind of crazy.
I think he'll probably be anOlympian, like more than likely.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:19:40):
I mean, we'll see.
I think it comes down to likeNorth America only gets a couple
spots, and so whether or notCanada sends more people or
something, that I'm obviouslydon't follow the sport close
enough to know exactly how it'sshaking out right now, but yeah,
it is.
It is to know exactly how it'sshaking out right now, but yeah,
it is, it is great.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, um.

(01:20:01):
And then, yeah, I think likerecently Seth has been like
absolutely crushing it and I Ihate to say that it's surprised
me because I think like his likecloser friends would be like
well, it didn't surprise me,like I knew how much how good a
shape he was in, but it hassurprised me how well he's been
running and why I'm likeinspired by it is because I

(01:20:21):
think his approach has been likedon't do like humongous sexy
workouts, like just put in thework and like keep your head
down a little bit.
And it is tempting like we weresaying at the beginning of this
conversation on like Strava,fkt stuff, like it's tempting to
upload that like crazy last repor yeah, whatever.
You know where you're likereally doing too much in a

(01:20:42):
workout.
And it seems to me like he hasnot been doing that and the
results have really come and so,yeah, that's been cool to see.
I even I did a little trackworkout last night, um, with a
group here in in San Franciscoand I was kind of thinking about
him during that workout.
I was kind of like, well, Icould like blast a 400 right now
, or I could just like run thespeed that I'm actually supposed

(01:21:03):
to be like in control andrunning for.
So, yeah, those are kind of the, those are kind of the three
right now that I'm that I'mthinking about in the competitor
side of things.
But yeah, I don't know if youwant to spend time.
If you want to spend time, ifyou want me to blast this list,
go for it, yeah well I thinklindsey and I were kind of
talking about this at the end ofher call is I have never not

(01:21:27):
that I know this personpersonally um, just from like
podcasts and social media andand other news reports but I
have never like experienced amore true profession
professional athlete than KateCourtney and I think she is just
like such a phenomenal humanand, yeah, I think like working

(01:21:49):
professional in the sport.
Like she defines likeprofessional athlete.
For me it's not just someonewho's like doing a bunch of reps
, like showing up on race day,like.
She is really like created thislike insane brand and is now
has this like foundation andshe's really like done more than
I think has been like asked ofan athlete and is like still

(01:22:11):
seeing the dividends from it.
So I think when you're talkingabout like, yeah, especially
like American athletes, kateGordon cannot be cannot be
overstated.

Speaker 1 (01:22:20):
I got to agree with that for sure.
That's a good one.
That's a good one.

Speaker 2 (01:22:24):
Yeah, I had a.
It was going to take too long,so I had a couple of cyclists on
here.
Like I said, I'm like a big,big cyclist.
So, inspired by, likedefinitely, the unbound scene
right now Both, both as it isnow, and kind of like what also
the roots of of the lifetimegrand prix started out, as kind
of some of those athletes, Ithink, um, like your audience is

(01:22:47):
going to be like a little morefamiliar.
Like I think you always got tocall out heather jackson, yeah
yeah just that is that?
that's kind of like my dream.
You know trajectory or likeit'll probably not trajectory at
this point, but gravel racinglike mixing up at the front of
like long hundreds, 50ks.
Also had this like insane ironman career like yeah, she is

(01:23:09):
truly inspirational to me aswell.
So that's kind of like mycyclist of the list.
I did put like the williamsbrothers on here too.
I think they're they've likepushed that should be
inspirational to like.
What trail running is right nowis like they've really taken the
media side of cycling and likethey've made crit racing like
interesting again, whether ornot they're like still at the
forefront of doing that it.

(01:23:30):
You can't like talk about roadracing in america right now
without them like being on thebubble somehow, I think.
So that's kind of two of them.
Ton of runners on here.
Noah drotty like I alreadymentioned as a college student,
like reading his workouts andfeeling that connection because
I was like reading his journalbasically was like I yeah I

(01:23:53):
can't really state enough howlike impactful that was to to my
development.
Um, andy wacker we've alreadytalked a little bit about now
with the trail team especially,but I mean not only that.
He's still having like one ofthe most amazing road seasons
I've seen.
So like, yeah, he, hedefinitely has like the fountain

(01:24:15):
of youth and and maybe it's atrail team, maybe it's something
about this college kids he'skeeping him.

Speaker 1 (01:24:22):
How old is he's what?
36 now, 37, something like that.

Speaker 2 (01:24:25):
He must be, yeah I remember when we first moved in
with him I I was like at his itwas at the house but um
celebrated his 30th birthday andI was kind of like, wow, 30,
that's like kind of old and andnow I mean that's always how it
goes right, like and then you're, five years later you're 30.
Paddy O'Leary here in SF, Ithink is like has become more of

(01:24:48):
a more for this community thanfor himself.
Just like the projects he's puton and like what he does and is
interested in the community.
He always like makes me want tobe a better community member,
both in like my runningcommunity and in just like
Telluride community moregenerally.
I think, yeah, he is, he is agreat person.

(01:25:09):
I don't know if you got him onthe podcast.
I was just literally I wasspaced out for a second thinking
about I'm going to send himmafter this yeah, I mean because
I think you could spend twohours talking about anything but
his running and he and he wouldbe engaging.
Yeah yeah so good.
Um, francesco, I've always beena friend for a fan of francesco,
but god, these last like twoyears of him just coming over

(01:25:32):
and just like tearing it up onamerican soil, let alone what
he's doing in europe, is soinsane.
But also just with like thecrow trail runner association
and stuff like that, like he's.
He's another like professionalathlete like.
He has made it a profession,not just like an athlete first.
So that's good.
I had some race directors onhere brend Madigan, mike Foote,

(01:25:53):
forrest Bogner like really, likeit's been pretty crazy to watch
the sport grow while you're init.
Like my first, yeah, I gotsecond or third at either the
rudder broken arrow like fouryears ago when the sport wasn't
big, and both of those eventshave gotten so insane now that

(01:26:15):
like the talent does come thereand like people are coming from
the they're foregoing like aroad career, they're foregoing a
track career to come race thetrails.
And yeah, I think it's thosetwo events especially have like
really made, at least in mycareer, like mountain running
very cool and desirable, and notjust for the athletes but like
sponsor money too, and that'show the sport grows in general.

(01:26:38):
So sure, yeah, a couple racedirector calls out let's see if
there's any last ones here.
I mean, yeah, there's a lot, wewant to hit a third, but I
think that's pretty good for forwhere we are.
I did call out like classics,yeah, jim courtney, katie, just
like.
Having americans just likecrush it in europe, I think is
like keeps the fire alive herein america, like, and it also

(01:27:02):
like reverses, you know, whenthey come back here and like do
really well at western, then itmakes like european athletes
more interested.
Like look at west, what westernis going to be this year?
And I don't think you can saythat it's because like western
is like an awesome race byitself, but like what americans
have done in europe and alsohere and people are now like a
little more curious about theamerican racing scene.

Speaker 1 (01:27:23):
So, yeah, have you got a chance to meet jim?
Or like, chop it up with him atall?

Speaker 2 (01:27:28):
I, I have, yeah, we've, we've gone on a couple
runs together and I've likebumped in him in in different
ways but yeah, he's, he's.
He is inspirational on his ownright as a runner out outside of
that, but yeah, I think he'spretty funny.
I had a couple people on herewho like inspire me as as like

(01:27:49):
such a good athlete that theylike transcend the like media
requirement to be an athlete.
You know and eat one of themand keegan swenson was my other
one on there, but yeah, both ofthem are just like so good that
it's, it's almost like is thatwhat you took away from him,
kind of is that what you tookaway from him?

Speaker 1 (01:28:08):
because I mean, you got to race him now like at
broken arrow, vk, like what.
What did you take away from?

Speaker 2 (01:28:13):
just like him in general, I'm just very curious
no, I, it's interesting andthat's kind of the interesting
piece too, like, as athletes dohave more media requirements,
then you see this other side ofthem, both like in your
interaction.
Like a couple of days ago wewere sitting down with Lindsey's
family after dinner and wewatched, like part of the

(01:28:33):
Walmsley Jim is.
I mean, obviously he's morethan an athlete, but he's just
like such a good athlete thathe's still kind of like that he
still has like halo status thateven though he is like easy to
talk to and you might like havesimilarities, that he likes
gravel biking every now and thenyou like gravel biking every
now and then he's still like JimWalmsley.

(01:28:55):
And so you know or like, yeah,I mean just some of the stuff
he's done.
It is so like yeah, it's weirdto be like talking with someone
who is like down to earth or youknow, you realize that like the
people have done the mostamazing things.
They're not thinking aboutthose things anymore.
They're always thinking aboutthe next thing.
But that doesn't mean that thetimes they ran and like the

(01:29:17):
stuff they've done still hasn'thappened, you know.
So they do like, whether theyknow it or not, they still like
carry the weight of what they'vedone, and so even for me, like
powerful feeling, like I'm kindof like chilling out a little
bit, I still will get like, yeah, starstruck by jim walsey, for
sure.

Speaker 1 (01:29:35):
I mean it's crazy dude.
I mean I've walked down, I meanI have met Courtney.
I've walked past her and I'mlike damn, that's Courtney to
Walter.
That's kind of crazy.
Like when you talk to thesepeople or meet them.
It is kind of weird when yousee them in real life.
I Well Joe Gray, but like he'sa friend, so it's a little bit
different and like I don't knowI'm trying to think of like the

(01:29:56):
most famous people I've ever.

Speaker 2 (01:29:57):
Well, and when you live in the same town, probably
that all kind of like makes itseem like he's like just that's
just great.
But I don't have that.
It like I'm still like God.
Yeah, he's really like a 40time US champ or whatever it is.
You know it's the goat man.
It's crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:30:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah um no, it's so interesting I I mean
, I could ask, I'm just socurious out of this, like out of
every runner you've ever met,like who's your favorite
runner's favorite runner?
Like who would you say, likemine is cam.
I just like, really like,really love cam.
Like he's just such aninteresting character to me my
favorite runner's favoriterunner yeah like who's my?

(01:30:35):
Who is your favorite runner?

Speaker 2 (01:30:37):
you could say that oh okay, I don't know.
I mean I think it does.
It changes on this season.
Uh, yeah, I don't know.
Cam is tough because I feel likeI'm like you're like friends
with someone.
I feel like for me, like afavorite runner has to be like,
unless you just mean likepersonality wise, like who could
you, who could you like?

(01:30:58):
Yeah, and it's like a guy likeCam or someone like that who's
like yeah, even like I have.
I have a couple of good camstories.
One of them I thought washilarious.
It was like day before he won,like one of the rut events.
He was like he was literallyjust sleeping in the woods on
the course, like he didn't havea hotel or anything like that.
So, yeah, I mean cam is like,but but that feels like someone

(01:31:21):
you're friends with.
I think there's still like likesome of these, like killian
stories or the anton, like earlyyears, like some of that stuff
is so impactful, as like as acollege student or something
like a college runner or justsomeone who's new to the sport,
that you have these like insaneperformances or just like they
just feel out of reach and sosomething like that you're, I

(01:31:44):
feel like you'll always bepulled to, but that's not to say
that you're going to like, evenlike with Anton or Killian,
like you're not going to want tolike necessarily grab a beer
with them, but you would like.
Want to hang out with cam, butyou would like want to hang out
with cam.

Speaker 1 (01:31:54):
That's true.
That's very true.
I don't know about it.
I haven't crossed paths withanton yet.
He's somebody I'd like to haveon kelly and just feels out of
reach just because he lives onanother side of the world.

Speaker 2 (01:32:01):
But yeah, everyone.
I think everyone inspires youin a different way.
I actually I've done like a.
I did a photo shoot with antona couple years ago, um, and he
is like it's tough too, becauseanton like what, what comes with
like anton's not baggage, butwith his status, I think it's

(01:32:23):
his writing and histhoughtfulness and that does
come out also.
So it's almost like with antonyou're less like, you're less
interested in like asking himabout like how his fastest green
time was, and more like or orlongs time, and more like what
is the body of like doing longsover, like 15 years, like mean

(01:32:45):
to you?
yeah you know, I mean like hehas a different weight it's
weird with him too.

Speaker 1 (01:32:49):
Dude, it's funny.
I have a friend I'm not gonnaI'm not gonna say it out, but
like I have a friend that'sprojecting possibly going for
the Chicago basin FKT thissummer.
And we like like dissectedeverything from his like FKT, no
one's even fucking close Likewithin, like it's like bananas,
how fast he's run there.
So Anton's done some mythicalshit, but like, yeah, it's

(01:33:11):
interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:33:16):
Which I mean, yeah, and that's.
That's an interesting piece oflike the athlete versus the
performance athlete versus theproject athlete.
I think there's a space forboth of those.
But yeah, I mean it's like ifyou're like interested in
mountain stuff and like I don'tknow how long he's lived in
Boulder, but how many times hashe like scoped all that stuff,
like it's crazy to have a routethat that that is that long,
like who else could know thatroute better?

(01:33:37):
yeah, yeah like it is crazy.
Yeah, he's putting he's puttinga lifetime of work to like run
some of those times it's crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:33:47):
It's crazy.
So lindsey said you're themusic guy.
What's what's the walkout song,man?

Speaker 2 (01:33:51):
like, what's your, what's your favorite song before
a race, or yeah, lindsey haslike five songs that just play
on repeat like all the time,including her race playlist, um,
but I don't know, I my musictastes do change a lot.
They change on the season a lot, but right now, because it's
like springtime, like definitelyinto like a little more hype up

(01:34:11):
stuff.
I've been listening to like alot of um, like a little more
psych rock, punk rock, um, Iwould say, do you know the band
that chats?
No no, they're, they're like anAustralian band.
Um you may, they're.
They're kind of had one popularsong going around called smoko
on Instagram, but anyway, sixliter GTR is is definitely my

(01:34:37):
walkout song right now.

Speaker 1 (01:34:38):
I've listened to that on repeat for a long time.
Six liter GTR.
All right, I'm going to plugthat in after this and give it a
listen.
Okay, yeah, all right, dude.
Last question it's usually Iask people either about Bigfoot,
aliens, ai, all kinds of crazyshit.
It's usually the wonky question.
But you want me to go with thealiens dude?
Do you believe you believe inaliens?

Speaker 2 (01:34:57):
I think, um, it seems improbable that there would not
be other life what I, I, but italso seems improbable that it
would be a type of life that'slike how we've seen in science
fiction.
Yeah, it's probably somethingthat we can't communicate with
or might not even recognize.
That's what I think.
That's fair.
That's fair.
Or it's also so far away that,like, the human race will be

(01:35:20):
extinct by the time thatsomething is near enough to
communicate with another type oflife.
So what do you think orrecognize it?

Speaker 1 (01:35:27):
What do you think people see then?
Is it like interdimensionalshit?
Or you think it's just likephenomenons in the sky, Like I
mean denominations in the sky,like I mean, what do you mean?

Speaker 2 (01:35:34):
like in the 60s, like ufo?

Speaker 1 (01:35:35):
everybody's talking about ufos now.
I feel like I see it all oversocial media, like people are,
like in government I thinkpeople just don't know what a
starlink satellite chain lookslike that's true.

Speaker 2 (01:35:43):
It's true, like people are freaking out like in
la, when that went by, yeah, andthen it's just clickbait and
that's what happens, yeah dude.

Speaker 1 (01:35:50):
My mom sent me a photo of one.
They live in south florida andlike obviously in florida.
Like the, it's flat so thesky's pretty illuminated at
night yeah, my mom's like oh mygod, we saw you if I'm like, not
starlake satellite like yeahwell, ryan dude, it was such a
great conversation, man.
Thank you so much for coming onthe podcast yeah, thanks for
having me.
Yeah, yeah, fun chatting, yeah,yeah, I hope this is the first
of many dude microphones alwaysyours.

(01:36:11):
Would hope to have you back onat some point and wish you the
best of luck in your season, manthanks very much.

Speaker 2 (01:36:16):
Maybe I'll see you at one of these upcoming races.
Yeah, be great to me in person.

Speaker 1 (01:36:20):
Yeah no for sure, I'll probably be at all the
cirque series this year.
I might be at the rut.
Are you gonna?
You're not, probably.
You're probably not going tothe route this year I probably.

Speaker 2 (01:36:27):
I don't know if we, lindsey and I, both have such a
special connection to the rutthat we may go even if we don't
race okay.

Speaker 1 (01:36:34):
Yeah, I'll be over there.

Speaker 2 (01:36:35):
We'll be in touch all right, all right, have a great
rest of your day what'd you guysthink?

Speaker 1 (01:36:43):
oh man, what a fun episode.
I want to thank ryan so muchfor coming on the podcast was
great to have a conversation andI'm actually really excited for
round two.
Um, he and I probably couldhave chatted for at least two
and a half hours and uh, yeah, Ican't wait to do a part two to
this one.
So really thank you to Ryan andexcited for where his 2025 is
going to take him.
I'm glad he kind of stated someof his goals on the podcast.
We'll see if we'll see if hegoes to Leadville and does the

(01:37:06):
damn thing.
So excited for Ryan.
It's going to be fun to followalong.
Guys, before you get going, dome a favor, hop on Instagram.
The best way you can supportRyan is to give him a follow on
Instagram.
You could find him in Runderscore Beck Beck.
Yeah, it's kind of funny, notBeck.
I mean, you can find them like.

(01:37:26):
Just type in R underscore B E,c K Z Again, that's R,
underscore B E, c K Z.
Or type in Ryan Becker onInstagram and he's the first one
that comes up.
So give him, give him a followand, yeah, let him know what you
guys thought about the podcastand the episode and send him
some words of encouragement ashe takes on some big goals for
this year.
Guys, before we get going, ifyou happen to enjoy this episode
and you want to support us,give us a five-star rating and

(01:37:47):
review on Apple, spotify orYouTube, wherever you guys get
your podcasts.
Last but not least, thisepisode was brought to you by
Ultimate Direction, usa.
Use code SteepStuffPod for 25%off the new RaceVest 6 liter and
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You guys are going to like them, so check them out and, yeah,
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Thank you.

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