Canyons 50K Race Preview with Special Guest Teddy Tonelli

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The ultra-trail world is buzzing as Canyon's 50K approaches, and we've got the ultimate preview loaded with analysis, predictions, and some good old-fashioned trash talk. In this special episode, host James Lauriello teams up with guest co-host Teddy Tonelli to break down what might be the most anticipated ultrarunning matchup of the year: defending champion Eli Hemming versus 2023 winner Hayden Hawks.

These two titans of trail running bring nearly identical impressive résumés to the start line. Hawks recently dominated Terroir 50K with a blazing 3:18:46, while Hemming crushed Big Alta 50K in 3:19:30, leaving elite runners gasping in his wake. As Teddy puts it, "This should have a belt on the line" – it's that big of a heavyweight clash.

The women's race promises equal drama with Jennifer "El Lobo" Lichtner squaring off against Tabor Hemming in a rematch of last year's battle where they were separated by just two minutes. Former champion Heather Jackson lurks as a potential spoiler after a disappointing showing at Black Canyon.

Beyond the elite matchups, we dive into controversial topics like UTMB's eye-popping race fees ($285 for a 50K!), the exodus of talent from The North Face team, and what it means to "swim with sharks" when racing against the sport's best. We also spotlight dark horses who might surprise everyone, including local favorite Nick Handel and rising star Cade Michael.

Whether you're placing bets, planning your race strategy, or just love ultra-trail drama, this episode delivers everything you need to know about one of America's premier ultrarunning events. And for those wanting even spicier commentary? Head to the Chasing Trail YouTube channel for the unedited "director's cut" version.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
What's up, fam?
Welcome back to the Steep StuffPodcast.
I'm your host, james Lauriello,and today I've got something
different for you all.
I'm joined by special co-host,mr Teddy Tonelli, and together
we preview the Canyon's 50k witha little bit of a preview of
the Canyon's 100k as well as the100 mile.
It's fun.

(00:20):
This is a satire-based episodewith a whole bunch of shit
talking.
It's up to you guys to decidewhat's real and what's well.
The analysis is obviously real,but the rest of it there's some
wild shit in here.
It's a super fun episode,probably the most fun I've ever
had on a podcast on the ChasingTrail website, slash Instagram,
slash YouTube, slash Spotify,apple, as well as the steep

(00:52):
stuff as well.
So you'll probably be able toget the director's cut, which is
not edited, which is going tobe on YouTube.
That one's got some seriousshit talking in it.
Hope you guys enjoy that one,and this one's a little more
dulled down for the boys andgirls out there.
So, without further ado, I hopeyou enjoyed this episode.
It's a personal favorite ofmine.
Thank you, teddy, for coming on, looking forward to many more
episodes down the line Withoutfurther ado.

(01:14):
The Canyon to 50K and 100K racepreview it's time.
Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, we are live.

(02:24):
Listen up, guys.
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think.
Teddy Tonelli, welcome to theSteep Stuff Podcast.
What's going on, buddy?
Hey, you know.

Speaker 2 (03:29):
James, it's great to be here.
I was saying your podcast,you're my podcast.
I mean your podcast is great,I'm doing good.

Speaker 1 (03:38):
Dude, it's a wild day , man.
It's already April.
It's like late April.
Canyons is right around thecorner.
It's a good day in NorthernCalifornia for some racing
getting ready for it, April 26th.
We're here to talk about theCanyons races, man, Mostly the
50K, but we could talk about itall.
What do you think?

(03:58):
What do you got going on thesedays?

Speaker 2 (04:01):
Yeah, yeah, no, it's great because I got some inside
information.
Actually, yeah, yeah, no, youknow, it's great because I got
some inside information.
Actually, I'm in NorthernCalifornia right now, james,
actually in the Bay Area, justoutside of Auburn, where this
race is going to be primarilytaking place, and I'm telling
you the weather is incrediblehere.
You know everybody talks aboutit, but it's crazy.
Look, we're a few days out fromthis race, james, a few weeks.

(04:25):
Whatever is here April 26th.
Okay, I looked on the weatherchannel.
There's nothing there.
So I went to the library, I gotmyself a farmer's almanac.
Okay, I'm telling you, thisthing is amazing.
It's telling me the temperatureis going to be between 50
degrees and 70 degrees.
James, that's perfect runningweather.
I don't know about you, but forme that's perfect.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
It is going to be perfect, man, I think I got the
Weather Channel.
I don't know what I checked.
I checked Google 66 for thehigh, partly cloudy, 23% chance
of rain.
How can they predict that sofar out, that percentage of rain
?

Speaker 2 (04:57):
That's crazy.
23?
Like okay, like you tell me youpicked the number 23, like like
scientifically who?
Yeah, 23, oh yeah, well, guesswhat?

Speaker 1 (05:09):
teddy's information says 27, so there that's awfully
specific man, I don't know it'skind of crazy.
Have you ever been on thecanyons course?
You ever run around there yeah,you know, teddy, I.

Speaker 2 (05:17):
So I've been uh out there and I've run on the
western states course a littlebit, which there's a lot of the
western states is is on the onthe canyons course, um, so I've
run a little bit of that.
Uh, I've never actually run therace itself.
Uh, you know, I know I wastalking to a buddy.
Uh, he was telling me that thecanyons 100k uh, before it was
uh, uh, bought by, uh, uh, bythe billionaires.
Uh was, uh, uh, it was actuallystarted out as 100k and now

(05:41):
they got all these other races.
They got the 25k, they got a50k, you know, and I know we're
focusing on the 50, but they got100k.
Now they started with 100 miler, yeah, yeah, so many races, you
know, before the billionairesbought it.

Speaker 1 (05:55):
I dude, like this is going back to like 2021, maybe
it was.
It was still utmb race, I thinkin 21, maybe it was before that
.
But like there was this, likeit used to be a really sweet
course where it was goingbackwards on the western states
trail and like a ton of vertical, like it was like an actual
climbers course, and then theychanged it to make it start and

(06:16):
end in auburn, where it used tostart, I believe started in
auburn and ended like near chinawall, all the way up here
getting into the high country.
So yeah, the course course hasbeen changed a bunch over the
years.
I'm not going to talk too muchshit other than the entry fee
prices, but the course used tobe better, in my opinion.
I think they butchered it.

Speaker 2 (06:37):
Yeah, the entry fees.
Look, it's kind of I don'tunderstand.
I'm trying to figure out howthey're trying to structure
these things.
I look at it this way.
You know, this is a little, asthey say is nuanced.
This is the way I see it.
Is that utmb comes in, they buythis race and they make it like
it's 250 or something like thatfor the 50k 500 for the 100 285

(06:59):
285 for a 50k.

Speaker 1 (07:01):
I know I listen, I haven't and this is like goes to
speak to like how, like I havethis is bad.
I I haven't looked at like arace entry fee in a long time.
This is the first one I'velooked at, like probably a year
and like happened to look at abig time athlete no, no, no, no,
no.
But it's like some ultra racesare pretty, pretty cheap, um,
but like and yes, I am fortunateenough to have some race

(07:21):
entries paid for Dude $285 to gorace in this economy.

Speaker 2 (07:26):
In this economy, you're going to start putting
tariffs.
You're going to start puttingtariffs on our race entry fees.
You know, look, all I'm sayingis, if we want to keep it
American.
I looked at the 100-mile race.
There's not a single Americanrunning the 100-mile race.
Where are the terrorists doingfor that?
Is that true?
They're supposed to be, yeah,they're supposed to be bringing

(07:48):
jobs back.
And look, and here's the thingis that it's a hundred mile.
Okay, it's, it's the elites.
There's not an American eliterunning the hundred mile.
But anyway but the but the butthe but the race fees, like you
were saying, james.
I think that that may be.
I see a lot of that's wherewe're going.

(08:08):
This is really expensive.
Where's the money going?
I better be getting acheeseburger at an aid station
if I'm paying that much money.

Speaker 1 (08:14):
Yeah, no, seriously, I mean all that for just a medal
and some photos at the end ofthe finish line.
The only reason I have an issuewith it is because one canyons
used to be a really solidgrassroots event and I just
don't think it is anymore and itused to be.
It still is a golden ticketrace, but the lure of the golden
ticket race before, I feel like, might have been higher than it

(08:35):
is now.
But the other part of it that Ihave a hard time with is like
so you're going to get what?
700, 800 runners per raceYou're charging how many people
are in the 100 mile?
And you're going to get what?
700, 800 runners per raceYou're charging how many people
are in the 100 mile.
You're charging $500 a headDude.
That's some serious doughthey're making.
There's some production valuethere, some serious money
they're going to be charging.
So yeah, I don't know.

(08:55):
That was something I'm glad weincluded, because I saw those
prices and it was like $179 fora 25K race.

Speaker 2 (09:03):
Are you kidding me right now and it's crazy, but
like it's, it's.
It seems to be everywhere,james, and we'll get off this
topic because it's not somethingwe want to harp on.
But you know, I look at, likeyou know, the other day I was
talking to one of thosegrassroots race directors and he
was talking like, about this,like the destination trail races
, where charging people upwardsof $3,000 and then put it on a
payment plan.

(09:24):
I'm sorry, this, this, I thinkwe've, I think we've lost touch
with uh, with, with uh, withreality here.

Speaker 1 (09:29):
But that's okay, that's fine, yeah, yeah, all
right, let's, let's, we can getinto the race.
We talked about a little bitabout the 50 K is deep man.
We've got Hayden Hawks, eliHemming, heather Jackson, tabor
Hemming, we've got JenniferLickner, and that's just the top

(09:49):
five or six names.
The depth is deep man.
What do you think about some ofthese names in this race?

Speaker 2 (09:54):
Yeah, james, I'm looking at some of these guys
and the 50K is absolutelyincredible.
I'm going through this entrylist and the 50K is insane.
I'm going through this entrylist and the 50K is insane.
We got Eli Hepp, we got SethRuling, hayden Hawks, nick
Handel, drew Holman.
At the end of the day, everyone of those guys can
potentially win this race.
Now I'm a little worried.

(10:17):
I think that we're going to seesomething a little different
this race.
I think people see Eli.
I think that performance inAlta.
He did what he did.
He's a competitor, he's goingto come out and he's going to
show up, but I'm thinking we'regoing to see somebody else
sitting on top of the podium forthis one.

Speaker 1 (10:32):
I think you're right.
I think so.
I think the big matchup for methat I'm looking at is going to
be between Hayden and Eli.
I think we have two and we canget.
We'll get into matchups alittle bit later as we get
through the storylines, um, butyou're seeing two very evenly
matched athletes, um, one is thebest 50k runner probably on the
planet.
One is the best outside of gymprobably the best 100k runner on

(10:53):
the planet.
So it's like wow, you know thisis going to be.
This is going to be the battleof the heavyweights.
I'm excited for this.
There should be a belt on theline for this.
One like this is.

Speaker 2 (11:02):
This is insane like I mean, yeah, we get bruce buffer
in there, and you know they,maybe that's what the utmb
budget is for.
So look I, maybe we, maybe wejump into conclusions.
Maybe bruce is gonna be outthere it's time you do that with
you, with your mind.
Yeah, that's good, well, okay,but eli eli won last year.
He's defending his crown, sohe's, you know, he's a, he's a

(11:24):
champion, yeah, and ran seven.

Speaker 1 (11:27):
I mean I don't know if they changed the course,
because I know they change thecourses like every year, but Eli
ran about seven minutes fasterthan Hayden did and Hayden won
23.
So it's crazy.
It's crazy how fast this raceis.
Also, heather Jackson's back.
She is a former champion ofthis race.
She's coming back after anabsolute epic blow up at Black

(11:50):
Canyon.
So we're going to see where shefaded back to 14th place.
We're going to see what goes onthere.
That's going to be interesting.
I'm sure she's hungry to go geta dub this year, especially
going into Western States.
Probably a hard effort she'sgoing to have to put in to get
that.
I'm a hard effort she's gonnahave to put in to, uh, get that.
Um.
I'm also really looking forwardto the rematch between jennifer

(12:11):
lichner and taber having liketaber taber is a monster and
like after coming off this likecrazy road I know I think she
might be doing one of themarathon majors as well, but
like after, like justdismantling the field, um, she
didn't really have anybody tochallenge her at um, what do you
call it?
Um at Alta.
And then you know, you gotsomebody like Jennifer Lichtner,
you know it's crazy, yeah, andI think you know it is fun.

Speaker 2 (12:31):
It's funny because, like I think Jen, it's very
interesting.
Let's talk about storylines fora second, because we're looking
at Jen Lichtner as being as, asprobably the top, top female on
the North Face team now, withKatie Scheid's recent departure
to on-running, and I think thatJen is hungry.
I think that there's a.

(12:52):
That's where my money is, james.
I'm thinking it's the tiny, Ithink it was the El Lobo.
She's like the wolf, yeah, oh,I like that.
I like that.

Speaker 1 (13:07):
Jen is scary.
I've never been on a start linewith her, but like she's a
monster dude, like I don't know,and especially like you said,
like to me she's probably.
I mean it goes back and forth,I mean she was, she can be
beaten, like bailey was able tobeat her last year at the rut
28k.
But I think as far as 50k racesgo, I mean, she's a past
champion of jfk, which is a 50mile race, but like she's, but

(13:30):
runs like a 50k because it's sofast.
But you're looking at someone.
In my opinion, that's probablythe best mountain 50k athlete on
the planet.
Like somewhere, maybe outsideof like tony mccann, like she
could compete with tony on anygiven day.
Um, great, you just when one.
The trans grand Canariamarathon.
Jen's a monster dude and like,like has often beaten one.

(13:51):
The rut 50 K, like I said, tooksecond at this race last year,
but only behind Danny Marino whowas, you know, on a heater and
just came off a really solidhalf marathon block.
So, yeah, it's going to beinteresting to see what with, uh
, what comes out of that on thewoman's side.

Speaker 2 (14:07):
How do you feel about , about, about hannah, hannah,
all good, oh, you had to ask methat.
I had to ask because I thinklittle I, I, I'm gonna say it,
I'm gonna say it people justwatch out, watch out, really
coming for you, I'm saying I'mjust saying, I'm putting it out.

Speaker 1 (14:25):
When you start to swim with the sharks, in my
opinion you gotta remember, likehannah runs a lot of like
longer races and the braces thatshe's made her name off of, um,
some like she won a europeanrace last year what was it?
Eiger uh, which is a great raceat the end of the day, but like
when you're talking about likeswim with the sharks, like
really world-class competition,like your tabers, your jennifers
, your yeah it's gonna beinteresting.

(14:45):
I I think like, like I said,swimming with sharks oh yeah, oh
yeah, it could be.

Speaker 2 (14:51):
It could be all bad for all good.

Speaker 1 (14:53):
We'll see, we will see um, yeah, all right, so
let's let's move on.
What's up with all the terexathletes at this race?
Is that like I?

Speaker 2 (15:01):
I, I've seen that I well, look, here's the thing.
I don't know.
I maybe, maybe utmb is lookingto take breaks with hoka.
I'm not sure, I'm just sayingno one ever said that.
I I what.
The one team that I find veryinteresting, james, is the
arcteryx team.
Like where did these guys comefrom?
Out of nowhere, I mean.

(15:22):
I know it's a little bit of atangent, but like, holy crap,
we'll get to that in a second.
The Terrence team I know we'retalking about the 50K, but the
100K, I believe, is it gosh, ourguy Eric LaPuma.

Speaker 1 (15:38):
Oh, yeah, yeah, he's racing it LaPuma.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (15:42):
LaPuma.
Okay, look, it's a westernstates, like on the western
states course there's the wholecougar thing.
He's a puma, puma's a cougars.
It's just different names.
Teddy knows a lot about animalsso I know this.
But the but I think the puma isgonna take it.
He's a terex guy.

Speaker 1 (15:57):
He is a terex guy.
He also, what did you, what didyou say he looked like.
I can't remember that for thelife of me.

Speaker 2 (16:04):
Yeah, he looks like a taxidermist.

Speaker 1 (16:06):
He does, he does yeah .

Speaker 2 (16:07):
Or a serial killer a little bit, or yeah, and who
knows, maybe he moonlights, I'mnot sure I mean, but he's a
great runner, so I won't takethat away from him.
Oh, I'm a big fan of EricLapuma Dude Eric Lap he is, and
he's so nice, he's such a niceguy.

Speaker 1 (16:23):
Yeah, yeah, I'm excited to see what he can do.
I hope he you know, dude, likehe's been knocking on, he's so
good and like I think his hegets a little overlooked, like
you know, like, for instance,like he, probably he would have
obviously won that race againstyou know he matched up against
Jim.
Jim, you know, has been on aheater obviously and he would
have won that race of jim.
Jim didn't show up, so he getslike overlooked right in some of

(16:45):
these matchups.
In my opinion, I think he'sworld class and uh, yeah, I'd
love to see him get into westernstates this year.

Speaker 2 (16:52):
It'd be cool to see him win and you know, and it's
just getting more and morestacked with western states.
I mean, last week, uh, we sawat gorge adam peterman came back
and he showed out, you know,and like and like he took a
break.
You know, he decided was a fewyears ago.
He decided I'm going to come in, I'm going to win Western
States and then hurt my foot.
And now he's back and, holycrap, I just like I see these

(17:13):
guys just more and more added tothe start line, more added to
the start line.
And it's nuts.
And you know, one of these guyswas speaking of the 50K.
He's actually a local guy.
I, you know Nick Handel.

Speaker 1 (17:23):
Yeah, kid's nasty dude had some great finishes at
Broken Arrow Won what was itlast year?
Won the big out to 28K prettyconvincingly.
Yeah, and he's had some greatfinishes at OCC too.
Man, he's a very solid 50Kathlete.
He's kind of folded a few timesin bigger races.
So I don't know, it's going tobe interesting to see, like,

(17:45):
like I keep coming back to thatsame, that same through line
with swimming with sharks, rightlike eli hayden.
I just, in my opinion, humbly,I see eli and hayden just taking
it out so fucking fast and likeyou're either gonna it's gonna
be sink or swim.
You're swimming, like I said,you're swimming with sharks.
At that point.
So it's either you run your ownrace and hold on for dear life
and hope you can eke out thatthird spot.

(18:07):
But that third spot is probablygoing to go to a Darren Thomas
or like a Cade Michael, or maybea Seth, I don't know, we'll see
.

Speaker 2 (18:16):
Well, that's absolutely accurate.
I mean, I think that Sethruling he's a Tennessee guy and
so he's used to all the rootsand the rocks and all these
things.
And and then you take a guylike Hayden, who you know.
I mean this guy has made hiscareer on running on you know,
nice, nice smooth trails andreally really fast.
I'm not saying he's a badtechnical runner by any stretch

(18:37):
of the imagination, but whenyou've got a guy like Eli and
Hayden and they take it out,there is no more running your
own race.
You can do that and you couldhope they're going to blow up.
But let's look at the history.
Yeah, they never blow up.
They ain't going to blow up.
I mean, I watched states oneday last year.
Hayden was coming in and he waschasing down Rod and I was like

(19:01):
he's going to get it, likeRod's going to die.

Speaker 1 (19:04):
It was like he's going to get it, like Rod's
going to die it was close dude.

Speaker 2 (19:06):
It was very close, and that's the guy you're
dealing with there.
He's bringing that same energyfrom start to finish, okay.
And so, yeah, sink or swim, youhave a guy that's coming in.
You have two champions that weknow can one of those guys?
I agree?
I just think that Hayden, Ithink he's gonna take this one
only because I think, that eli,eli, eli did a lot over at a big

(19:30):
alta and I think that he saidthat he might just, he might
just go in and, like you know,hey, if it's a little close and
hayden's there, fuck it like I'mjust yeah, it's gonna be
interesting.

Speaker 1 (19:40):
I do want to double back to the 100k.
Uh, yeah, so we've gotinteresting.
So my teammate, my las partivateammate, jackson Cole, is on
the start list.
I'm very interesting to see.
Interesting Like he's run somelonger stuff before.
Like he I think he I can'tremember if he finished or he
dropped at Leadville back in theday but like you're talking
about an insanely talentedathlete on top of that that

(20:02):
already trained with JeffMcGavro and Adam Peterman
talented athlete on top of thatthat already trained with Jeff
McGavro and Adam Peterman.
Like it's just a matter of time.
Like, if he puts it alltogether, like that's someone
that could come out of the ahundred K with a golden ticket.
Why wouldn't be at allsurprised?

Speaker 2 (20:13):
Oh, I, I, I a hundred percent agree, I do.
And you've got Anthony Costalesin there as well.
Who's a dark horse?
I look, and I know your guy,you know he is Jackson.
Goal is for diva.
Look, and I know your guy, youknow, is Jackson Cole is
Sportiva.
Look, and I love it, I love it.
I think you're right.
I do have to say one thingabout the 100K, both on the
men's side and the women's side.
I mentioned earlier that the100 miler didn't have any

(20:33):
American men racing.
To me that's a travesty.
This is a big race, everybody.
The 100 miler was put into thisrace a few years ago.
Do was put into this race a fewyears ago?
Do you remember who won it,Gosh man originally?
I can't remember, it doesn'treally matter, but what I do
know is that I see this guy DidCanyon Woodward do really well.

Speaker 1 (20:54):
I can't remember.

Speaker 2 (20:55):
It was Canyon.
It was Canyon Woodward, Ibelieve it was.
I believe he won the inauguralone.
I think he kind of owns thisrace a little bit, like he's
gotten, like I think he'spodiumed, like every time.
Yeah, but but my issue is isthat we don't have an American
male elite, elite, elite, ok,representing us.
But we have this, thisgentleman, ryan Montgomery, who
is a hundred mile racer, runningin the hundred K.

(21:16):
Ok, I don't know if this guy'strying to save himself, the
states or something like that,but sometimes you've got to show
a little patriotism and you'vegot to say you know what?
I'm not racing the 100K.
There's plenty of Americanrepresentation there.
I'm going to go race the 100miler and I'm going to show this
German wahoo who's coming inhere and thinking he's going to

(21:37):
run on our territory.
I don't think so.

Speaker 1 (21:39):
No patriotism no stars, he DNFs.
Yeah, I'm surprised we don'thave any Americans in the top.
And like any elite Americans inthe top Did you?
I peeled through the 100K and100 miler and, like I said, the
100 miles.
So, first of all, I got to shiton you, tmb, for a second.
Like guys you got to get, justgive me a list.
Why do I have to search by name, like, what?

(22:02):
Like you're really going towaste my time with that.
And then you give me a list ofwhat five elite men and women on
for each race.
Like, come on.

Speaker 2 (22:12):
Because they have, like, their UTMB ranking is a
little bit high, because that'sthe thing is, like they give you
the top five but there'sanother five list of elite
athletes who could come in hereand take the dub without any
questions.

Speaker 1 (22:19):
It's zero respect from UTMB Dude, Darren Thomas,
is racing this race.
I mean, it was kind of a latesign up, but like he's not on
the website and like the onlyreason I knew that is because I
talked to him and I was like I'mglad I know now because I would
have never included it, becauseI didn't think to search for
his name, right, because he justcame off Big Alta.
So yeah, there's a lot of peoplethat are like we might even,

(22:41):
when we get to our picks, who Ithink we might not even see in
there.
I mean, I looked at a lot ofnames, I checked as many as I
could, but I don't know, we'llsee.

Speaker 2 (22:50):
I did too.

Speaker 1 (22:52):
I want to go back to something you mentioned earlier.
With Katie Scheid and Jermonleaving North Face, what do you
think about that Huge man?
Yeah, it's a huge move.

Speaker 2 (23:01):
It's a huge move, I think.
Look, I think it's great forKatie and them.
I think this is.
I'll talk about what I know.
You know I've seen a lot ofmovement in free agency this
year TNF, the North Face.
They've lost two stud ladies.
They've lost Jasmine, who youhad on the podcast recently

(23:23):
Canadian, yeah, big, big fan ofthe Jasmine and and, and now
Katie's gone.
You know, I'm wondering.
It's like it seems like theymade a really big push into
trail and then now they're kindof peeling it back a little bit.
But when you've got the talentsof Katie Scheid and Zach Miller
and you decide that, like,you're not going to keep those
guys, those there's just,there's elite athletes right

(23:45):
there and and that's why I say Ithink that jen has an
opportunity to come in andcement herself as, like, the
premier north face athlete.
You know, uh, I, I don't know,I I think that it's great.
For on running, I hate theirshoes.
I think they're terrible.
Like they pay them, they're themost uncomfortable.
Like, in for trail, like, look,if you're doing corrective

(24:05):
shoes or you're working in likea nursing home or something like
that, yeah, on, shoes arefantastic, super cushy, you know
, like, like, but you go out andyou run in the trail, you're
going to roll your ankle, you'regonna like it's all bad, so,
but you know.
So what that tells me is that,like Katie got paid.

Speaker 1 (24:21):
Yeah, that's where I was going with that.
Yeah, that's what I was goingto ask you, you think I.
My guess is that, yeah, it wasbecause, like I don't know, I
heard on single track they weretalking about like Brett Horning
made the point like oh, you can, you know now they can go run
and you know road shoes and yougot all kind of you have a whole
lineup of shoes.
I'm like bro, that's not thereason she left.

Speaker 2 (24:46):
She got the back.
Yeah, yeah, no, nobody's goingto I'm running because of their
shoe technology.
Let me break it to you.
You wear that for status, likeyou go to rvi to go buy your
patagonia puffy and and and yourwhite on running shoes.
That's right.
Um, that's fine if you're, ifyou're gonna, if you're you know
you're gonna go out and you'regonna go and try and impress
some, you know, granola girls inin boulder.
But, like, if you're gonna gorun a trail race, I don't think

(25:08):
so yeah and listen rightfully.

Speaker 1 (25:10):
So I hope, like they, she's making like close to
courtney level money becauseshe's close to courtney's level,
if not there, you know.
I mean, if anybody's gonnachallenge courtney over the next
few years, it's gonna be katiescheid, and if anybody's to be
the next Courtney, it's probablygoing to be Katie Scheid, you
know, if there's anybody closeTara Dower maybe, I don't know,
Tara Dower races a lot.
Man Like yeah, doesn't pick andchoose her battles, like she

(25:33):
just chooses a lot of battles.
So it's like, can you hold upover the long term for something
like that, whereas like I, Iwould, I would, I would agree
completely.

Speaker 2 (25:45):
And I think that, like Katie, I'm going to say hot
take here.
Maybe it's not even a hot take.
I think she's breaking allCourtney's records.
I'm just saying it.
I think you know she stayshealthy.
I mean, we're looking at atalent here and you get your bag
, you go and go get yourselfsome Las Portivas and paint them

(26:07):
with on colors, so that way youdon't get in trouble and you do
your thing and go crush records.

Speaker 1 (26:11):
because I mean I'm just saying that's true.
It's going to be fun to seewhere this goes.

Speaker 2 (26:16):
All right, let's talk .
I do think I will want to sayone really quick thing, james,
is that with the TNF athletes isthe one that they had before
was the jasmine.
You talked about her going toarcteryx.
I know we're gonna do pics, butI'm saying the 100k it's not
even close.
She's taking it, she's takingthe dub.
Nobody, nobody, nobody comesclose to her I, I agree with
that dude.

Speaker 1 (26:37):
She's a monster and like someone like talk about a
kind, good human like I'mexcited for like where, where
things go with her, like I thinkshe's I don't know like it was
just a really good fit forsomeone like her to go to
arcteryx.
She's from bc, you know like,and she's got like all that shoe
lineup and everything behindher.
Yeah, in my opinion, um, yeah,I see her winning it definitely

(26:58):
yeah, why not?
oh yeah I didn't see anybodylike on the women's side that I
think would really like push andplus she she's a former
champion already, so it doesn'tmatter.
Question is does she want to goback to Western States?
I don't remember if I asked herthat on the podcast.

Speaker 2 (27:10):
I'm thinking they look, I don't know, teddy's
going to be out there.
There's actually kind of alittle bit of a break in those I
actually secure.
I'm a little biased, to behonest.
I'm actually doing the crewwork for jasmine, so I kind of
had to say this contractcontractually, yeah, so I'm

(27:31):
gonna be out there at canyonslooking at it firsthand.
We might actually get somereporting from the, from the
thing.
I might, I might pop in, uh,but I got crew duties, so I got,
I got, I got.
I really gotta focus on that.

Speaker 1 (27:38):
Yeah, you gotta, I can't mess it up if she doesn't.

Speaker 2 (27:41):
If she, yeah, I gotta give her her baby food and then
I got to make sure that thatshe gets it.
She cause.
My point being is that the onlycall Teddy to be on the crew if
you're trying to get to WesternStates?
That's the only time I feelthose phone calls, so I'm I'm
assuming.
Let's hope she brings it home.

Speaker 1 (28:01):
It's going to be, it's going to be fun to say All
right, let's get into uh, let'sget into some questions here.
Do you think this particularcourse let's talk in the 50 K Do
you think this particularcourse suits a particular type
of athlete?

Speaker 2 (28:15):
Yeah, no, I think, I think it definitely does.
I mean, that's why I brought upNick handle.
And again, you know, granted,that he is going into a freaking
lion's den.
He's used to running on thosecourses, he's training on them.
Everyone talks about theCalifornia carpet.
That's why Nick Handel he's alocal boy, that's my local pig,

(28:36):
that's my dark horse Also,because I know him he's a good
guy.
But Hayden Hawks, I'm tellingyou right now, I think that that
guy, you get that Californiacup a lot of downhill.
I think that that's.
I think that that's who it'sgoing to, uh, who it's going to

(28:57):
benefit, that that really fastrunner who can open it up, can
keep that.
Yeah, Just keep, just keep itgoing.
And that to me that's hated I.
But again we'd say Eli too,what do you think, what's your
opinion on that?

Speaker 1 (29:08):
one.
Yeah, I mean, like this is aninteresting.
This isn't like um, I don'tknow.
So like we just previewed, forinstance, like a golden trail
series race, the kobe trail,right, and that's an interesting
one, where you get a lot ofathletes that are going to be
racing on a mountainous course,right where.
But people are coming in, forsome people are coming in from
orienteering backgrounds, somepeople are coming in from just
pure fitness.
So some people don't have maybethe technical skills to hold up

(29:29):
right, they just have thefitness.
This is quite the opposite,where we're previewing a course
where it's 31 miles but 5500feet of climbing in the winter
is running low, you know, lowthrees, like in, you know.
So figure, your winter is goingto be running.
I don't know a 210, 215 marathonsomewhere in that range on the
men's side.
So it's like, dude, who's gotthe skills to do that?

(29:52):
I think it's going to be HaydenHawks, eli Hemming.
But it's like you don't reallyhave to worry about any
technicality, like you couldjust kind of float and worry
about the rest of it.
You know, let the rest takecare of itself.
I've, like I said, I've neverbeen on the course.
You could speak better to thisbecause you've run a little bit
on the Western States course.
There's like no technicality toit, right?
I mean, I would imagine becauseit's a fast race.

Speaker 2 (30:11):
Yeah no, if somebody's coming in here and
they're calling this coursetechnical, they need to go back
to road.
Running is really my take onthe whole thing.
It's because, again, this isreally.
It's a smooth course, it's afast course, that's what it's.
I mean, to your point, when thethis used to be more of a
climber's course and now we havethe descending portion where

(30:35):
it's a net descent, it's thatit's getting faster and faster.
I don't know.
I think you are 100% right,though.
I think that there's zerotechnicality involved with this
course.
I think the temperatures aregoing to be great.
Obviously, when you get downinto the canyons, it's going to
warm up a little bit.
So you might see some peoplewho go out there a little bit
too fast, a little bit too eager.
They may blow up, but I thinkwe're going to have nice temps.

(30:57):
I don't think we're going tohave anything crazy, uh, but it
you know everything.
Anything, anything could change, but I think, as far as course,
it's going to benefit thereally fast guys for sure.

Speaker 1 (31:06):
What do you think?
Uh, baseline fitness wise.

Speaker 2 (31:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'd say, that's probably, that's
probably accurate.
Um, I you know, I I did see.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, probably Okay.

Speaker 1 (31:32):
Who do you think?
All right, so I got I, so yougot some dark horses right.
You talk about Nick Handel.
I think my dark horse isprobably Cade Michael and some
other gentlemen and ladies outthere.
Do you think someone's going tohave a career defining moment?
Like, let's say, let's say CadeMichael goes and has the race
of his life and beats, beats anEli, and like, beats, like I

(31:52):
already think he's totallycapable of beating Josh he
probably has already, and I justdidn't see it.
Like, maybe, like, because Iknow they've trained together,
Like they're both Western guys,Like is it possible to go beat a
Hayden Hawks or like an Eli,Like could that be done?
And, if so, like, where doesthat put Cade Michael or

(32:13):
somebody like that or a NickHandel?

Speaker 2 (32:15):
I think that this race in particular I think was
it last week we we seen Gorgeand I think that's one of those
races where you couldpotentially get some like crazy
local guy who runs those trailsall the time and, like you know,
has that career defining moment, comes out of nowhere and races
that we see a lot of that onthe East coast Sometimes.
I think with this one, I thinkwith this one because of the

(32:36):
explosion of UTMB and Canyonsand everything this brings out
everybody I mean we still got alot of international runners
here that are coming in too,that are going to compete.
I mean we focus on theAmericans because we're the best
and I get that, but the thingis there's a lot of talent
coming in here.
I don't think that's going tohappen this time, james.
I think that what we're goingto see is we're going to see the

(33:01):
regular run of the mill guys,we're going to see the elite
guys that we see that are on thepodiums.
Normally.
I just see it being that typeof race because of the
popularity, because it bringsout so much talent.
Now, at the same time, it's anygiven Sunday, as they say.
Anybody could come out thereand win and I think that a lot
of the you know this list is sodeep, the 50K is absolutely
stacked and it could be.

(33:22):
I mean, would you say, I mean,give it a percentage chance with
this, with, with, with Cade iswhat do you think his chances
are of actually taking a podium,would be my question.

Speaker 1 (33:32):
Oh, I think Cade has a very high probability of
getting on the podium.
He hasn't raced this year.
I think he's fresh and he's fit.
I most recently put up and likepulled Andy Wacker.
Andy Wacker just likeabsolutely dismantled the course
record at the big out, the 28 KRight, and he pulled Andy up
gold Hill and like you'retalking like five minute grade
adjusted pace you know I forgethow many miles it is, but like

(33:55):
five minute greater just to pacefor like 3,700 feet of climbing
up a dirt road and like it'sjust very similar right, like
this is going to have what?
5,000 feet of climbing, almost6,000 feet over 31 miles.
So Kate's got the wheels, dude,he's got the tools to do it.
He's young, he's hungry.
Oh, I'd love to see him getthird.
I don't know if he has, like Idon't know if he can beat hayden

(34:21):
or eli on on a fast day, butlet me tell you something, dude,
I still think he's.
I mean, we'll talk about whenhe get into picks, but like I
think he has the tools to getagain on that podium.
There's no doubt.
Okay, yeah I'm okay.

Speaker 2 (34:29):
No, that's fair yeah that's fair that's fair, I like
that let's talk.

Speaker 1 (34:32):
Let's all right, let's get into matchups.
I know we already talked aboutHayden and Eli.
I just want to throw a couplestats in there.
So, like I said, 2025 HaydenOne thing we can't discount is
Hayden's Terroira in 2025.
Okay, we ran the Terroira 50K.
Robbie Simpson is so fuckingfast and took things out so
quick.
He runs himself into a 318.46.

(34:54):
And he found himself behindvery early in the race.
Okay, for, like probably thefirst half of the race, hayden
found himself like behind and,trying to catch up, had to put
the wheels on to finish thatrace, runs it and wins in 318 46
in the teraware 50k.
Just so like hayden doesn'tpanic either.
That's one thing I really likeabout him, dude, he's.
He's kind of in the last fewyears, started to put it all

(35:16):
together, right, he's.
You know, he's kind of learnedhow to race with this wet like
from western states.
Right, he learned how to bebehind and still play the game,
race other dudes, race othermatchups and, um, kind of play
catch up.
And he did just what that wasin terroira.
Eli, at the same time, got toassert his dominance on the big

(35:37):
alta.
Okay, like, when's the big alta50k in 319, 30.
Absolutely like makes davidroche.
And who I love david roche?
David roche is one of myfavorite athletes in the sport
but really just breaks him,makes him look silly and david
roche is a genetic freak likeabsolute animal good.
So it's kind of crazy becauseeli, to me, beat some of the

(35:59):
best dudes that I revere high inthis bro, like remy larue.
Right, remy larue took third onthat day and in my opinion,
he's one of the best climbers inthe world.
Um, yeah, and eli just likemade these guys I don't want to
say make, made him look silly,but like just really rolled
dudes up and just like assertedhis will and dominance like dude
.
At one point in time he wasjust like stopped on the course

(36:20):
and waited for David to catch upto him so he had somebody to
run with.
Like Eli, is that good Dude?
These are very similarlymatched athletes.
Like Eli can climb, hayden canclimb.
Eli can descend, hayden candescend.
Both of them can take things tothe limit.
One's the best 100k runner inthe world outside of gym.
One's the best 50k runner inthe world.

(36:40):
How does that?
I don't know.
One has won this race in 2023.
One has won this race in 2024.
I have no idea.
This is bananas.
I love matchups like this.

Speaker 2 (36:52):
It's, it's gonna be absolutely incredible and I
think that one of the bigreasons and that's like you
brought up is is really hayden'sability to kind of like fall in
and know exactly where he is.
And I think, as you mentioned,he's gotten better at racing,
just strictly better, just hehas nailed it.

(37:12):
And the thing is is he's socomfortable with this course.
I just think that that's why,for me I know we get the picks,
all that.
I think everybody's clear onwho I'm picking here.
I think that Hayden is going totake it and it's because he has
so much knowledge of thiscourse.
It's going to play hugedividends for him because when
you take those two levels offitness both of them great
athletes I just think thatHayden has the edge a little bit

(37:35):
.
Both are so complete.
Yeah, and Hayden's not going to,like you said, hayden's not
going to get scared If, if Eli'srunning out in the head and
he's you know he's two minutesup on him Hayden will not panic.
He's going to keep steady,eddie going to keep going and,
and and I.
But that spectacular from afrom a spectator standpoint is

(38:03):
that you have these two guys.
You look at big alter.
Uh, eli took it out from thevery beginning.
If I'm behind that man thinkingthat I'm gonna follow him that
entire race and see that he, howhe set that tone, that's a
that's.
That's scary from the verybeginning.
You're gonna have to followthis guy for 31 miles and and
he's got that it's gonna betough.
I'm still picking haydenbecause I just think that his
course knowledge and the factthat he has absolutely honed it
in, I think he's taking this andthen he's taking it all the way

(38:23):
to States and he's going to winthat this year too.

Speaker 1 (38:25):
Oh my God, yeah dude.

Speaker 2 (38:27):
I could see it.

Speaker 1 (38:27):
I don't know it's going to be so interesting to
see.
There's a lot of a lot.
I think Hayden has reallylearned how to get comfortable
in races and not panic and justbe like, okay, I'm going to play
this smart and assert my willand dominance, maybe later on.
The thing about Eli is Eli hasalways been so good and so

(38:48):
talented that he doesn't getpushed very often.
The only time I saw himflustered was probably at JFK,
where him and David Sinclairlike had an epic battle and if
it wasn't for Eli's stomach kindof going south a little bit
like who's to say like how much,eli could have very well won
that race.
And David Sinclair is like oneof the best in the world as well
.
So I don't know like anythingunder a 50K.

(39:11):
Eli's a really safe bet.
Like I'm taking the under on.
You know know, like eli is justso complete.
Um, yeah, we'll talk about it alittle bit more as we get to I
do want to.
I want to talk about the matchupbetween jennifer lichner and
tabor.
So yes, these two duked it outlast year.
Uh, 2024 canyons.
Tabor lost to jennifer.
Uh, tabor took third, stillended up on the podium.

(39:33):
Jen took second, ended up onthe podium as well.
They were separated by a littleover two minutes maybe I think
it was two minutes and whatlooks like five seconds.
We don't do public math here onthe podcast but two minutes,
five seconds separated.
One ran 359, one ran 357.
So I don't know.

(39:54):
Like I said, we talked aboutthis a little bit.
Jen won the trans grand canaramarathon, tabor won the big out
to 50k.
I think a lot of this, thismatchup, is going to come down
to who has the early seasonfitness and where that's gonna
go.
Um, yeah, all right, let's takepicks.
I'm gonna let you start offwith picks.

Speaker 2 (40:10):
Let's do top five women on your side oh gosh, um,
okay, um, boy the hell, I'mgonna go number one, uh, I'm
going jen, I'm taking jen uh forthe win.
On this one, I, I know I said,uh, hannah, that was that was,
that was false.
Uh, number two, I'm gonna, uh,I'm gonna have tabor, um, you

(40:34):
know, and uh, I'm going to letyou fill in three, four and five
.
I think that for me, those arethe two women that I'm looking
at being one and two.
I think that the third place, Ithink the third place is, um,
um, it's up for grabs, it'sreally up for grabs, and I, but
I, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm sticking,I'm going Jen, table one and

(40:54):
two, third is really up in theair.
Who, if you were to give thirdplace, if I was to give you Jen
and Tabor, what do you got forthird?

Speaker 1 (41:02):
I've got Heather Jackson but I'm curious as to
why you don't have HeatherJackson winning either, or in
the top two.

Speaker 2 (41:07):
Look, I think and it really comes down to this is
that I think that between Taborand Jen, I think that there's
something there that they'regoing to be battling it out with
each other and they're going tobe.
I just think that Jen is primedand Tabor is going to chase her
.
Tabor is not going to go, andit's not that Heather Jackson

(41:30):
can't come out there and do theexact same thing, because we may
see all three of them at thefront trading spaces.
One of them is in the front.
It could go back and forth.
It's going to be quick.
It spaces.
You know one of them's in thefront, you know it could go back
and forth.
It's going to be quick, it'sgoing to be, it's going to be
explosive.
Um, I don't think there's anyreason why I don't have a having
the dub.
I just think that it's jen.
I think that jen is going towin it and taba is just.
She's got that fitness, she'srolling it into trail finally,
and it, and I don't think, Ithink she's going to bring it
together again another year,another year.

(41:52):
The freaking hemmings justlighten everything up.
I swear to God if they have achild do you realize?
Olympian, do you?

Speaker 1 (41:59):
It's not even fair yeah.

Speaker 2 (42:01):
This kid is going to be like it's.
It's like you thought you hadrecords.
Goodbye, they're gone in 20years, Just wait.

Speaker 1 (42:08):
Yeah, dude, if they, if they, if they have children,
oh my God, like those kids aregoing to be recruited, like, if
you're a college coachfor-country track and field or
cross-country skiing, likeyou're, you're throwing, you're
throwing the bag, especially for, uh, what is the?
Uh, what is what are they doingcollege football now that they
uh give money to kids?

Speaker 2 (42:27):
anyway, yeah, yeah, yeah exactly.

Speaker 1 (42:29):
Yeah, I hope they, they just yeah, they're
recruiting very anyway.
So back to heather jackson.
I do find it interesting, itinteresting.
The thing that confuses meabout Heather Jackson is the
inconsistency.
Right, sometimes it clicks andsometimes it just does not click
.
I don't know what it is.
Maybe it's because she's like adual to triple sport athlete I
don't think she competes and tryanymore but like big time

(42:51):
gravel athlete, I don't know,sometimes things click and
sometimes they don't.
She's won this race before.
So what you think like and not?
And Tabor hasn't, and neitherhas Jen, so you'd think we'd
have her up there, but I, like Isaid, I'd say at best third
place.
I also think, like I said,jennifer Lickner and Tabor
Hemming are two ferociouscompetitors.

Speaker 2 (43:12):
Exactly.

Speaker 1 (43:13):
You're talking like some of the most competitive
women on the planet when itcomes to these races, dude, yeah
, and I don't know if Heatherhas that appetite to be able to
swim with these sharks.
Maybe she's.
Maybe, like, this is just goingto be a really fast stimulus
because, uh, you know, beforeWestern States also, it's a Hoka
sponsored race.

Speaker 2 (43:30):
It was probably financial incentive to get on
the podium.

Speaker 1 (43:32):
Absolutely Financial incentive to be there, so I
don't know if they payappearance fees and stuff like
that for it.
But I would imagine there'ssome sort of financial incentive
to show up.

Speaker 2 (43:41):
Oh, I'm sure and I think that.
Look, I think that what yousaid is the reason why I have
Jen at the top and why we callher El Lobo.
I guess, if it's what would bethe feminine term for that in
Spanish, would it be La Lobo.
No, that wouldn't make anysense.
I don't know.
We're going with el lobo.
I'm sorry, jen, for doing that,but the reason I say it is

(44:03):
because when you're on the startline and you're looking her in
the eyes, I'd be freakingterrified, terrified and look, I
like it like crush you yeah, ithad the jackson.
You make eye contact.
She's like medusa your legs aregonna turn to stone um, all
right, so I got heather in.

Speaker 1 (44:24):
Third, I do have tabor winning, I think.
I think, like I said, it'sfunny, wow, we have the matchup
switch.
Yeah, I think tabors is comingoff such a solid roadblock that,
like technical running doesn'tmatter for this, like.
I think she's you know shereally.
And the other thing, there issome questions about Tabor.
Tabor really wasn't pushed atall at Big Alta, like it was
pretty easy dub for her, likeshe was going sizzler from, like
literally the first five miles.

(44:45):
So in my opinion, like I don'tknow, I'm curious to see Tabor
get pushed, whereas like Jenreally had some international
competition at a trans grandCanaria.
So I don't know, it's going tobe fun either way.
Whoever wins one, two, I thinkit'll be very close.
I see them getting away fromthird.
I don't see third being veryclose.
I think this is Tabor, jen,within several minutes of each

(45:06):
other, several seconds and thenmaybe five minutes out from
Heather or someone like that.
Oh wow.
And fourth, I've got HillaryArnslott, who's a Canadian
athlete.

Speaker 2 (45:15):
And in fifth I'm going to throw.

Speaker 1 (45:16):
Kimmy Schreiber, who's another Terex sub-Ultra
athlete.
Yeah, I think there's going tobe some good crossover for some
of these Europeans, just becauseit's not a very technical
course.
It's all coming down to fitnessand speed and the Europeans
tend to do pretty well here,like they you know if they can

(45:37):
just follow the course, thenthey're not gonna have too much
of an issue.
For some reason, they just liketo beat up on us americans, so
uh and then.
Yeah, so that's what I got forthe women.
That's the top five.
Um, the men's field is a littlebit deeper.
I think there's there's a lotto the men's field.
Um, I'll let you take it awayon what you think for the men's
field.

Speaker 2 (45:51):
Um, I'll let you take it away on what you think for
the men.
Oh boy, yeah, okay, uh, man, sothis is my my list here.
Uh, this, might this, this,this is.
I think the beginning is isvery predictable.
I got Hayden at number one.
I think Hayden's taken the,taken the the win here.
Um, I got Eli too.
Uh, I think I think he's goingto be behind Hayden.
I think it's going to be veryclose.

(46:11):
I think it's going to be verymuch like the women's race.
We're going to have a very,very tight race there.
Where it starts gettinginteresting, I think, is for the
third place, and I believe Drewwas a previous champion of this
.
I think it's hard for me to puthim on the podium right now,
because I think here's the thingright now it's for me for the

(46:34):
podium, it's between Seth andAndrew for third, and then I'm
rounding it out.
I'm going to, I'm going to goin Seth, I'm doing it.
I'm playing kids.
Seth at third drew it forth andNick handle and fifth.

Speaker 1 (46:47):
I like that.
Okay, all right, mine'scompletely different.
So I like this All right.
So I do have Hayden winning andI think that Eli Hayden matchup
like we've talked about 60,000times now it's just going to be
so close.
I think it's either.
I don't think there's going tobe blow ups between the first
two men, eli and Hayden.
I think they're just socomplete.
You're talking about two of themost complete dudes in the

(47:08):
sport, if not outside of Jim andKillian.
These guys are right there andI'm really excited to see.
To me, we've gotten a lot ofgood matchups this year.
We finally got to see Killianversus Jim again at Chianti, and
then we saw Vincent how does hematch up in there?
And Vincent, dude, he reallyshowed that UTMB wasn't a fluke.

(47:32):
That guy, that guy can hang umand like ran with killian the
entire race.
So I was thoroughly impressedwith that matchup.
And this is another one where weget to see eli, hayden and eli
and hayden.
So I've got hayden taking thewin.
I just think hayden is a littlemore complete and gets a little
less rattled, um, and I I justthink eli's like maybe one step

(47:57):
back.
It's gonna be so close, um, andit could very well be eli
taking the win and beatinghayden.
I would not be surprised it.
A lot of it depends too on likewhat part of the block hayden
is in.
Um.
It might not just be fitnesswise like maybe hayden's muscles
.
You gotta remember likehayden's muscles, you got to
remember Hayden's getting readyfor something like a Western
States.
It's a little bit slower of arace.

(48:17):
Obviously it's a super fastrunnable, but this isn't a
sub-ultra race that Eli,typically, is going to be thrown
down at the 50K and below, sothat could be a small muscle.
Dexterity could be a smallamount, I don't know.
So my third place I'm going togo with Cade Michael.
Okay, that's, that's a, that'sa.
I think Cade is a young lioncoming up in the sport.

(48:38):
Dude's got a lot to prove.
He should have been signed by abig brand last year and didn't.
I'm personally a little miffedabout that.
I think he's one of the bestnew young, young cats in the
sport um and should absolutelyfind a home, and I think this is
an opportunity for him.
Like I said, dude, he's beenrunning a lot with Andy.
I I, after seeing some of thosesplits on what he did with Andy

(49:02):
, uh, going up gold Hill I waslike man, these boys are fit,
these are these boys are fit.
Um, yeah, I, I would expect.
Kate, I thinkade can definitelybeat matt daniels.
I think drew holman is itdoesn't race enough and there's
something called race rust and Ithink if you don't do it enough
, sometimes you get a little.
You know, like he's gonna be upthere, but, like I, there is

(49:23):
such a thing as race rust.
I do think you, you know youmight forget some things if you
don't do it enough.
Um, nick handel can hang.
Seth ruling is a question mark.
I, I don't know like I thinkwhat he did at black canyon was
amazing, but I'm curious to seelike, all right, well, how are
you gonna hang in the 50k?
you know like yeah obviously hetrains with a bunch of these
boys.
Um, so, yeah, I've got kademichael in the third.

(49:46):
I'm gonna go fourth, darrenthomas.
Um, that's a great pick.
Yeah, darren had a veryimpressive big out.
The 28k um, you know, if thiswas beneath a 50k, if this was
like a 28k or somewhere in thatrange, I would pick darren for
the podium.
Um, he's, you know, he's a hit.
He's hit and miss with the.
I shouldn't say hit a miss.
I don't think that's a veryfair assumption.

(50:06):
I think he's a little bit lessgood in the 50K and up distances
.
He's deadly at your VKs andstuff like that.
He's so good and so uniquelytalented.
I wouldn't be surprised ifDarren's up there in the top
three.
I just think that he's anotheryoung lion.
He's hungry.
He's not with Solomon anymore.

(50:27):
He's got something to prove.
He's running for himself now,which is a little bit different.
He did take second in the 25Kback in 2022.
I think he goes and gets itdone.
And then in fifth place I'mgoing to go Jesher and small,
who I think it was in 20.
I can't remember it was 23 or24.
He took no, it was 24.
He got second place.

(50:47):
So 24 would have been rightbehind Eli and he ran with just
a couple minutes off eli, whichis pretty stout.
So I think jess jess is veryconsistent, very solid athlete.
He runs, I'd say, like out ofthe the highest race iq out of a
lot of these guys.
Um, I think jess runs verycalculated, calculated races.
He's very dialed um, and yeah,I'd say that.

(51:08):
And then we've got a bunch oflike I just wrote all names in
there.
So matt daniels drew DrewHolman, nick Handel, sven Hoche,
who's another Terex athlete,german and then Seth Ruling.
I mean, dude, like I'm notthrowing barbs, but like Matt
Daniels is just so inconsistentas of late, like dude, if you're
running anything over 50k, likeit's hard for me to bet with
you.
It's hard for me to bet withyou Anything under that.

(51:30):
Matt Daniels is so talenteddude, sub four-minute miler, but
why not just stick to sub-ultra?
You're so talented in sub-ultraand ultra, just for some reason
you just haven't been able tofigure out for all these years.
Just go sub-ultra and you'regoing to continue to have a
great career.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (51:47):
Yeah, it makes you wonder what makes those
decisions.
It, I don't know.
Yeah, it makes you wonder whatmakes those decisions.
It brings them in play.
It's like, yeah, who knows,maybe he wants to get into it.
Who knows?
I do think that the comment,the Darren one, I mean that one
for me.
I was like when you said that,I said okay, because I see
Darren as he's really the shortruns type guy, but he does have

(52:09):
it.
He has the talent to come inthere and do something.
I would love to see Darren.
He's such a nice guy, he's sucha great guy.
You know, he's just a nice,nice dude and he paints dogs.

Speaker 1 (52:19):
He paints dogs, that's so great I got to send
him some photos to paint my dogs.
I forgot about that.

Speaker 2 (52:24):
Yeah, yeah, you need to do that.

Speaker 1 (52:26):
Yeah, he's, he's.
He's got a lot of talents, man,and I don't know, he's just a
good dude and um, you know it'shard to bet against him.
I just think he's, you know, Ithink you know.
Now, after like, departingsolomon, I think he's like I
haven't spoken to him personallyabout this.
I did dm about something elsethe other day, but like I, you
know, I can't help but thinklike I would have a chip on my

(52:46):
shoulder and I like, and darrenis so talented that it's like
you know, he seems to be havinga lot of fun too and things seem
to be clicking and like.
And then going back to Kate dude, I just there's something about
Kate Like some people just havethat like factor about them and
Kate is so talented and likejust has the ability to hang
with these guys.

(53:06):
You know, and I don't, like Isaid, I don't want to be too
harsh on someone like a MattDaniels it.
You know, and I don't, like Isaid, I don't want to be too
harsh on someone like a MattDaniels.
It's just that like MattDaniels to me is like was one of
my heroes in the sport when Ifirst came in.
Like I really respect and likeadmire him and he's so talented,
like his sub-form in it, myler,he's so good dude and like
hasn't been able to put ittogether.
Wouldn't be surprised, probablysee someone that can like win

(53:28):
the race.
You know for sure.
Um, but just like, what are youdoing in ultra?
Go, stay in sub ultra.
You have the ability to competeat these series and alls and
races like that, if you just putthe time in.
So, yeah, stop running the longstuff with staff and them go,
go, go come on man.

Speaker 2 (53:43):
Yeah well, you know I want to change my pick because
you are right.
I'm not going by my own logichere.
Seth ruling is a bettertechnical runner.
Seth doesn't even get top five.
We're throwing in, we'rethrowing in.
Uh, darren throwing in darren.

Speaker 1 (53:56):
Okay, all right, and seth, you know what dude?
It's funny like I was justlistening to.
Uh, I I shouldn't be too biasedbecause I actually really like
seth.
I know he's pretty tight withmichelino and it's like I
there's I don't know he's reallytalented, but again, like
there's the inconsistency therewhere like he just has the win
of his life at the black Canyon,um, and maybe that brought him

(54:17):
up to a new level.
And from a confidenceperspective, I know he's dealt
with some issues as far as uminjuries over the years.
You know, I don't know it'sgoing to be interesting I
wouldn't be.
He's another one that could gowin this entire race, like.
I'm pretty confident that hecan hang with eli and hayden.
I know he's trained with bothof them.

(54:38):
So yeah, I don't know it'sgoing to be one of those ones
that, like it depends, um, youknow how bad you want it and
what's your race iq.
I think that that comes down tolike a lot of it, you know 100?

Speaker 2 (54:44):
yeah, no, absolutely.
And I and I think they all likeone thing I will say in like,
in this kind kind of tying itinto the 50Ks, I think people
need to be very wary of theCanadian runners coming into
this race.
Again, I am a little biased,again working with Jasmine, but
this is all I'm going to saythese Canadian runners that are

(55:04):
coming down here, they're bigmad about these terrorists.
They're up there, they'remaking lots of noise and I think
that, look, here's the thing.
They're going to come in andkick our ass.
You think I don't know if it'sthey're going to come in and
kick our ass, but I like thespirit, I like what I see in
Canada.
I want them to come in and Iwant them to like to really,
really throw down here.

(55:25):
And what I'm seeing is is thatbecause we don't have like a lot
of top 100 K, uh, uh, uh, Iwould say, like the, the, the
female isn't like that, that,that deep, I think, for the
Americans I should say, I thinkthat we take Jasmine and if we
make Canada the 51st state, shebecomes our first honorary
American runner.
Um, and I think that, like shedoes, like I, I don't know I

(55:46):
just think that we bring herover.
We just we just we like drafther or something like that.
Yeah, her on the team, yeah, webring her in because we need
that talent, we need that thatpure unadulterated rage out
there on the course running likebecause I, I.
That's why I think that thatshe's coming and she's mad.
She's proving a point.
She says, you know, but reallywhat she's doing is is she's
showing that they have what ittakes to be part of america?

Speaker 1 (56:08):
oh, man who is even all right, I gotta check this
while I have you is like, who isthe 100k in the 100k women?
Jazz luther, priscilla forgi,emily hoggard and allowed emily
hoggard could come out there, dosomething.

Speaker 2 (56:20):
She's, she's, she's starting to get real fast.

Speaker 1 (56:23):
Katie asmuth yeah, katie asmuth.
Uh, emily clark.
So there's a lot of, like, bignames, but like people.
Marianne hogan all right,that's a name that I'm
interested in.
Like does marianne hogan,because she's gotten on the
podium of western states before.
I'd be very curious to see whathappens there.
Achille henninger you know, dude, killy's an interesting one yes
because she, um, you know, tooka step back from ultra this

(56:46):
year and it's like not aprofessional athlete anymore.
She's a professional athlete,but like depends on how you
define it in the sport, right,but like she doesn't have the
pressure anymore of like havingto deal with all that contract
bullshit.
So it's like, well, what doesthat look like?
You know, like is she phasingher way out of the sport or is
she just like feeling a littlelighter in the sport?
What would it like?
I don't know.
What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 2 (57:07):
hey, yeah, and it's interesting because I actually
so.
When I saw her name on there, Iwas like OK, maybe, maybe.
Look, I think that there's achanging of the God in the
female side of this sport.
We've seen it getting fasterand faster on both sides.
I just think that there's a newgroup of ladies here and that
we are going to start to want totalk about making names for

(57:27):
ourselves on races.
I think that on the, on theladies side, we're going to see
a lot of that coming up here inin the in the next few years.
We're gonna see some girls thatare coming out of nowhere.
That, I mean, like jen is kindof like one of them, you know
she's just like this, this, this, this wild lady running around
in the woods, and then they'relike, hey, here's a bib in some
shoes and then she goes anddestroys everybody.

(57:48):
So you know, I just think thatgoing to, we're seeing a change
in the God and and and, like allthose older time, longer
distance athletes, we're goingto see them start fading off and
we're seeing the Katie Shides,the gins of the world, um,
they're coming in and I don'tknow.
I mean, I think that you knowthe way I see it here.
I'm looking at here, um, youknow, even on the men's side of
the a hundred K, all I know isthat if that freaking lunatic,

(58:10):
francesco Poopy, comes, in here.
Yeah, poopy's not going to win,he's going to poop out.
Look, the thing is that I havea lot of respect for the people
from the home country andeverything like that, and I love
Italy, it's beautiful, but thatguy needs to get out of here.
I don't like him at all.
Really.
I'm taking Eric LaPuma, rodFavard let's go america, let's

(58:34):
show this guy get back to europe.

Speaker 1 (58:34):
We don't need you here, poopy we don't need.

Speaker 2 (58:36):
We don't need you get out of here it and like I like
the name, francesco's a greatname it's just like solid poopy.
Come on, poopy, get out of hereI was gonna call him puppy.
I was calling him puppy for along time and he corrected me
said poopy yeah, but you got rodfive odd the pitbull coming in,
he's gonna rip your throat out,dude.

Speaker 1 (58:53):
What do you think about that?
You think rod repeats.
You think rod's for real, rod'sfor real?
Yep, I think so too.
I think rod like really figuredit out over, like last year,
just like like, dude, betweenwestern states and like and what
he did at canyons last year,like and then like what was that
?
He just ran that santa barbaranine trials race that he just

(59:14):
demolished.
Dudes, rod is really good manand like has it figured out.
I think it was like a lotnutrition was like a big factor
that he started putting togetherand it's like yeah, this is one
of the biggest names in thesport in the next few years, in
my opinion yeah, and leave it upto the north face.

Speaker 2 (59:29):
leave it up to the North face to let him go to my
God.
What's going on over there?
I swear it's like they let allthe talent out the door.
Zach Miller, who are youapplying for next question?
I'm just saying yeah, but it'sa serious question because, like
I'm confused to honestly, james, I know this is probably a
topic for another, anotherpodcast but my gosh, keep the

(59:51):
talent.
These people are world-class.
Give them some freaking money.

Speaker 1 (59:56):
I don't know if I get in trouble for saying this, but
I don't really care, probablyno.
So, dude, you know what manI've got.
As someone that works incorporate finance, I do have to
say this when private equitytakes over something, so private
equity you know, the vfcorporation owns the north face,
right, so there's a budget, allbrands have a budget.
But like when private equityprivate equity, in my opinion,

(01:00:19):
just sucks the life out ofthings and that's that's a lot
of.
The issue is, like, whenthere's such steep budgets, like
you can't pay someone likekatie you know katie level money
.
I don't know how they, likesolomon and emmer, was able to
get like.
Well, that's probably why thereis no north american athletes
on the solomon team anymoreother than max king is probably
because they that budget all gotallocated to courtney, but

(01:00:39):
that's totally like I on, Ithink, just like was able to
come in and throw the bag andthat makes sense.
Um, this is interesting.
So, like I'm looking at the um,there are some names dude, at
the 100k, like you got poopy, Idon't know.
Poopy just like aggravated mebecause he just seems so
confident.
I don't know where I saw hisinterview at somewhere.
He just seemed so confidentthat he was going to win this

(01:01:01):
race.
And you know what dude like?
He's really good up into the50k distance, but like I, he's a
.
He's like a delicate dude he's.
I don't know if you've everseen him in real life.
He's a little guy and like Ijust, wonder if his like muscles
and bones can hold up over thatlike long duration.
Like, yeah, sure, like you needto be light and fit for you
know he's, you know, a sub-ultraguy.
I just wonder what thatdurability looks like over 100k.

(01:01:23):
Um, I don't know, maybe I'mfull of shit look, it could be,
but I'd look at that.

Speaker 2 (01:01:28):
This is the names that I'm just saying right here.
Look, I'm just Eric LaPuma,number one.
Yeah.
I'd love to see that number oneRod Favre, Anthony Costales,
Jeff Morgavero Are you kiddingme?
These guys are world-class.

Speaker 1 (01:01:40):
What do you think about Morgavero?
He's kind of hopped onto thescene in the last few years.

Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
Man I think that that guy, he's a Montana boy.
You know he's coming Look.

Speaker 1 (01:01:50):
Top American in series, and all two years ago,
like so nasty yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:56):
Last time I saw him he was running at Broken Arrow
with Michelino down the snow.

Speaker 1 (01:02:01):
Oh, I forgot Him and Michelino have had some tight
races.
Yeah, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:05):
They was neck and neck coming down next to each
other and you see these twogreat runners sitting there next
to each other just chatting,running fast as hell through the
snow, and we're all justwatching like how the hell do
they do this?
I think jeff's gonna beincredible.
He's got an absolutely amazingcareer and he's a he's one of
the schemo guys.
So you know, he's got thatfitness man.

(01:02:26):
I'm saying francesco, look, youneed to relax.
You're going against someabsolute freaking monsters here
and I'm sorry, take, take your,take your yeah, you take your
euro and get the hell out ofhere.

Speaker 1 (01:02:39):
This is canyons baby america what do you think about
anthony costales?
Do you think he's yeah?
I thought yeah, I dude, it'skind of crazy because he's
probably one of the mosttalented guys in the field and
it's probably just being kind ofcounted.
Like it's crazy what we do inthis sport I was talking to a
buddy about this yesterday likehow we discount guys after they
get injured and like they kindof go quiet on the scene and
it's like, well, we're not goingto count him in because you

(01:03:01):
know he's injured or this, thatand the other, when it's like
dude anthony could very wellcome in and win the race too I.

Speaker 2 (01:03:06):
I think he could talk james I.
He's one of those guys that Ihave on my list here.

Speaker 1 (01:03:09):
I put him on here for a reason.
Dude and tom's like gym level,like close to gym.

Speaker 2 (01:03:13):
Yeah, I don't know yeah, yeah, no, I I'm just
wondering if you was petty likethat.
You go out there and you'relike oh, that's cute, like yeah,
and then you look at, I, theheart rate thing, I that's a
topic for another day.
I think that's the silliestthings that you hide your heart
rate.
I know what you're doing.
I know what you're doing.
I know what you're doing.
This is not a recovery.
Run, calm down, calm down, bigguy.

Speaker 1 (01:03:34):
This is why I hate Strava.
It's like people take it suchto another level and they're so
upset.
Some people I see doing itreally well, like my buddy, nick
Tusa, who's been on the podcasta gazillion times.
He just puts himself out therein the world and he doesn't
really care, he's not looking atother shit, he's just putting
his own thing out there and youknow, and it's it's used for

(01:03:55):
good and positivity and I reallyappreciate that, whereas, like
that's what it's supposed to be.
The other problem is, dude islike now that I have like I
don't want to say a following,but like a small following, I
don't like people looking at mefor what I'm doing and that
aggravates me.
I don't want people like likingmy shit and on my shit and like
I keep it very private, mytraining, like just like brian
whiffield says, like mytraining's for me and uh, that's

(01:04:18):
why, like it's a very personalthing and I'm very dialed.
Dude, I take it very serious.
Is that butter?
What is that?

Speaker 2 (01:04:25):
oh no, this is a bagel with an egg.
So, uh, you know, you know,jake, my producer, um he is, he
has now been fired from all theelectronics and so now he just
cooks um for me and brings mewaters and things.
So I got a bagel with an egg,you know, which is, uh, maybe
one episode we'll do onnutrition, this is a very good
thing.

Speaker 1 (01:04:43):
There you go bagel with an egg, are you?
Are you running today?
Are you working today?

Speaker 2 (01:04:47):
I'll just work in it.
I'll probably run.
I I'm always doing it.
Take this, thank you, I was up.
I'm always running, always,always trying to run.
James, I'm not a fast guy, youknow, teddy's not a fast guy.
I'm just kind of going outthere, I'm going cruising,
cruising.
I'm not like you, james, whereyou go, because, like you said,

(01:05:09):
I would follow you on Strava,but it's terrifying.
It's terrifying.
I'm actually a would follow youon strava, but it's, it's
terrifying.

Speaker 1 (01:05:13):
It's terrifying I'm actually a very boring follow on
strava, because I don't knowthose things.
Um, yeah, dude, I don't know.
It's a.
It's funny, I forgot what I wasgonna ask you.

Speaker 2 (01:05:24):
Now you threw me off oh, we was talking about strava.
Oh, I'm sorry, I just had a.
I need to get my potassium.
That's electrolytes isimportant.
Actually, this podcast isbrought to you by Celsius energy
drinks.
It would be really nice if youguys sponsored Teddy, because I
need some.
I need some money.
Anyway, that's just a freepitch for them.

Speaker 1 (01:05:47):
Oh dude, all right.
Well, listen man.
Thanks for coming on.
This is like a phenomenal racepreview, uh yeah teddy, you're
the man, dude, appreciate you no, james, you're the man.

Speaker 2 (01:05:56):
Hey, good luck to you .
Uh, I don't know when we'regonna air this.
Uh, I'm, I'm in and out rightnow of the of the studio, I know
, and.
But I appreciate you having meon and talking about this.
I think it's gonna be great.
Like I said, we'll be out there, maybe we'll get some reporting
in and I'll keep the peopleupdated on what's going on out
at canyons.
But this is an exciting race,big weekend man.

(01:06:17):
I am excited for this sportbecause, james, tell me, is this
sport the greatest sport in theworld, or what?

Speaker 1 (01:06:22):
It's the best sport on earth.
Man, other than I do like MMA,I like violence, but yeah, I
don't know.
This is a great sport too.

Speaker 2 (01:06:29):
Yeah, maybe we add them both together at some point
we have to get to the finishline.

Speaker 1 (01:06:33):
We can bam bam punches.

Speaker 2 (01:06:35):
I don't know, they do slap fighting.

Speaker 1 (01:06:36):
Think of like guys all right, what's your really
quick before I let you go.
Like if guys like in the racelike holding hands, maybe they
have to fight after um yeah, ifthey do that, if they do that,
they are either they're either.

Speaker 2 (01:06:48):
They're either disqualified or you gotta fight
disqualified, ineligible forracing ever again in your life
and and subject to the, to the,to the, the, the, the basement
of the internet, where all thecringiest things go, or or you
fight it out yeah, yeah, thedeath to the death.

Speaker 1 (01:07:04):
To speaking of that, did you have you?
Uh, are you gonna get michelinoon yet, like, what's the deal
there?
Is he gonna come?
Yeah, I, I don know.

Speaker 2 (01:07:11):
I just talked to him the other day.
This is what's weird.
Yeah, I think he was down inyour area the other day he was.

Speaker 1 (01:07:16):
He was supposed to come on and then he didn't come
on.

Speaker 2 (01:07:18):
Oh, I got my gripes.
Oh, shocking, shocking.
Michelino doesn't.
And now he's evading it, andnow he's dodging you.
This is the thing that I findvery strange about it is that
his partner, jasmine she,requests the services of Teddy,
and now I'm like Jasmine, yourboyfriend's dodging me.

(01:07:40):
Is he going to be there, or ishe going to not miss the race
too?
I don't even know if he's goingto be at Canyons, we'll see.
All I know is that if I see himat Canyons, canyons we're gonna
have I'm gonna sit him down,you're gonna have when I'm in an
eight words, I'm gonna havewords.
I'm no, I'm tell I'm gonna puthim on the podcast.
I'm just gonna go, I'm justgonna go instagram live on and
I'm gonna follow him around likejames o'keefe and just pester
him you should, you should.

Speaker 1 (01:08:02):
I think that's a good way to do it.
Well, teddy, I'll let you uhget your shit in.
Have a wonderful day and uhthank you, james thanks so much
for coming on.
Man appreciate you absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:08:11):
Thank you, james, awesome brother what'd you guys
think?

Speaker 1 (01:08:15):
oh man, what a fun episode.
Really want to thank teddy somuch for coming on.
Uh, teddy is a is a nationaltreasure.
Uh, I definitely got to saythat the man is a national
treasure and, uh, someone willhave back on for numerous
occasions and times to uh talkabout what's going on in this
wild sport that we love so much.
Before you guys get going, hopon Instagram.
You can follow Teddy via RunSlut on Instagram.

(01:08:37):
Give him a follow.
That name is a bit egregious sohe might be shadow banned, so
I'll be sharing it on ourstories as well.
On top of it, you can find uson.
You're going to be able to findthe episode both on the Steep
Stuff podcast on Apple SpotifyYouTube and you're going to be
able to find it via ChasingTrail on Apple Spotify YouTube

(01:08:58):
as well.
Give it a listen.
It's good stuff.
Yeah, guys, I hope you enjoyedthis episode.
For those of you not offended,yeah, give us a five-star rating
review on Apple Spotify YouTubeand if you were offended, I'm
sorry, but I hope you have abetter sense of humor than that.
Yeah, guys, have a great restof your week.

(01:09:20):
I got some great stuff comingdown the line for the next
couple of weeks and I reallyappreciate it.
I really appreciate youlistening, I really appreciate
your support and, yeah, have agreat rest of your week, thank

(01:09:41):
you.