September 18, 2025 • 30 mins
The mental and physical crucible of Pike's Peak brings together over 2,500 runners annually to test themselves against what organizers aptly call "America's Ultimate Challenge." What drives athletes back to this mountain year after year? As one elite runner explains, "You're constantly wondering if you're going too hard and if you're going to die... it's an ultimate mental battle."
This conversation dives deep into the psychology of mountain racing, examining how athletes approach a challenge where the real competition isn't other runners but the mountain itself. "I don't care what racers show up," shares a veteran competitor. "This is a test against yourself. Everybody that's out here is doing it, everybody's testing themselves."
We explore the strategic elements that make Pike's Peak particularly demanding - from pacing the notorious "W's" section where "you can't gain much but can sure as hell lose a lot," to adapting nutrition strategies as altitude increases and digestive challenges mount. Elite runners share their training approaches, balancing structured workouts with time spent "running in the mountains, getting in the Alpine, seeing cool lakes and tagging some peaks."
The discussion reveals how these athletes think about race craft - the mental calculations, the physical adaptations to altitude, and the nutrition strategies that evolve from trailhead to summit. For anyone fascinated by endurance psychology or considering their own mountain challenge, this episode offers both practical wisdom and a window into what happens when body and mind are pushed to their limits against one of America's most iconic peaks.
Curious about what it takes to conquer your own mountains - literal or metaphorical? Listen now for insights that extend far beyond the trail.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Going up.
It's just you're constantlywondering if you're going too
hard and if you're going to die.
So, like they say, it's anultimate mental battle.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Is that what keeps bringing you back, year after
year, the ultimate?
Speaker 1 (00:13):
mental battle.
Yeah, I don't care what racersshow up, even if somebody shows
up better than me.
You know this is a test againstyourself.
Everybody that's out here isdoing it and everybody's testing
themselves, and it's great.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
It's called America's Ultimate Challenge.
Each year, over 2,500 runnersflock to Manitou Springs to
challenge themselves against themountain known as Pike's Peak.
This year, runners from 46different states and eight
foreign countries have come.
They all start here and maketheir way towards the clouds.
It's time, thank you.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Ladies and gentlemen, we are live flew by quick man.
(02:04):
I feel like we were justchatting.
Like this is, this is nuts.
Like here we are.
We're both heavily bearded and,uh, a little bit older now
gotta get the beard going beforewinter.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
Uh, winter comes, so so we're prepared.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
You know what man who knows?
I mean, I haven't checked theweather for the pikes peak
ascent and marathon, but I meanI heard the other day, didn't it
?
It did snow the other day.
We're rolling the dice, dude.
I don't know what we're doinghere, but like it could be, I
swear to God if they, even if itsnows like we're going to the
top.
We have to.
It can't not happen.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Last year was.
I still think last year weshould have went to the top, but
I don't know if that's apopular opinion or not, but I
think we should have.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
You're not the only one who feels that way, Just
about 99.9% of people.
I, you know I made a mistake oflike telling people I'm on the
board now because I've had I'veeven had women reach out to me
asking to create a um petitionto move the race back to August.
So, like, people feel verystrongly about the uh, about the
(03:01):
situation right now.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
So, yeah, how many, how many years has it been in
september?
Speaker 3 (03:05):
like four or five I think this is the third or
fourth, if I remember correctly,we're gonna move from what I
understand I don't know if thisis like, I don't know, maybe
this could be.
You've heard it first here weare definitely next year gonna
move it back, I think, to thebeginning of september, or or
the first two weekends inseptember, if I remember
correctly.
So it might be moved back aweek or two weeks.
(03:26):
Um, and it was something to dowith I don't know, something in
manitou they were doing or theyneeded, they needed the trails
for something I I honestlycannot remember.
But, um, yeah, dude, I'm allfor august.
I think we need to go back toaugust.
I mean, who cares about thethunderstorms?
You know it's all right, wedidn't.
You know, lightning, a littlebit of lightning adds a little
parody.
But if there's snow, you knowwe don't need anybody freezing
(03:46):
to death on the mountain.
It could be.
Speaker 4 (03:47):
Yeah, it'd be awkward and like, even if it doesn't
snow, it's cold.
Like after you cool down, afteryou get to the top, it's cold.
Man, oh, it's freezing up thereit's terrible.
Yeah, you're all sucked dry andwithered away, so it's.
It's a tough one for sure, ohman, man.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
So what about the ascent intrigued you this year?
Was it more the like you justdidn't want to do the marathon
again?
Or what are we doing here?
What's?
Speaker 1 (04:10):
the.
Speaker 4 (04:12):
Man, I don't know.
Okay, so I was a littlerambunctious and I signed up for
way too many races in Septemberand obviously that descent is
going to beat you up really bad.
And obviously that descent isgoing to beat you up really bad.
Um, so my thought was like, oh,if I, if I do the ascent, then
I'll recover, you know, a lotfaster and be able to do this
50k, uh down in new mexico thefollowing weekend.
(04:34):
Um, I'm kind of sad about itbecause, uh, like we've talked
about in the past, like mydownhill is just, uh, it's my
bread and butter.
So I'm kind of taking that awayand kind of putting myself in
an uncomfortable situation.
But it's going to be fun, uh,regardless.
So so, yeah, ultimately I wentwith the ascent because, uh, I
wanted to do a couple otherraces and didn't want to be
(04:55):
fully destroyed from thatdownhill.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Totally understood, man.
How, um I mean dude, you've runso fast on this course, like
what's your fastest ascent time?
It's like 2, 2, 11, 2, 17, whatis it?
Speaker 4 (05:04):
my ascent time.
Yeah, no, it's not that fast.
I'm in that 230, so I'd like to.
Yeah, I'd like to.
I'd like to crack 230 this goaround, but uh, we'll see.
We'll see what happens.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
See how I feel so you just did a high altitude race.
How did you feel?
Uh, I mean, obviously likedevil and divide, especially for
50k, is that's a long timeabove 10,000 feet.
How did you?
How'd you feel during that?
Um?
Speaker 4 (05:28):
I didn't taper that much for it because I knew that
you know, pikes was a little bitum two weeks after.
So I kind of wanted to likeprolong that and I went into it
like slightly tired.
Um I was feeling.
I was feeling pretty dang good,um, maybe about five miles.
In the first five miles it tookme a little bit to get, uh,
(05:48):
warmed up.
It kind of starts on like alike a forest road and that's
not and I'm not like the biggestfan of that.
You know, I love, love me somesingle track for sure, um.
But I was feeling good, I wasfeeling really good, um, coming
through like 13, 14, 15 miles,um.
But I had changed something upto which you know, like we all
know, you're not supposed to dothings new and racing.
(06:09):
Yeah, I had done uh about 75grams of carbs per hour in
training and I was like, ah,what the hell I'll do, I'll push
it and I'll go a hundred gramsper hour, um, for devil, on a
divide, cause I was just, youknow, 50 K, I wanted to make
(06:30):
sure that in that last 10 milesI kind of had a little extra
juice in the, in the body, tokeep me going.
But body, uh, stomach kind ofrevolted on that and I had lost
uh two of my bottles.
Uh, nice, uh, projectile vomitout out at tree, out at tree
line at like 18 miles and thenkind of, from that point on, it
was just, uh, just get me to thefinish line.
So it was like if you were touh storybook, uh, ultra, I think
(06:50):
that was.
Uh, you look in a dictionarythat my race was definitely that
.
Oh my.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
God dude, all right, All right.
So we learned a little bitabout the, uh, the high carb.
You know, listen, man, it can'tbe worse than me.
I dude, I got two and a halfmiles into a cirque race and
cramped.
I don't think anyone's everdone that other than me.
All right, so you know, it's,it's, it's, uh.
It's just one of those days tofigure shit out and hope for the
best yeah, yeah, it's just youlive and learn.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
but that course, dude , is so epic, like you're
spending so much time above treeline and running like sweet
ridges and um, it was like, yeah, I was super bummed and I felt
like crap, kind of like doeslast 12 miles.
But I mean, it was just, it'sso epic.
I would highly recommend it forsure.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
I've heard really good things about the course.
Nick to Sarin uh, the 22 K onthe podium there.
I've heard like amazing thingsabout both races.
Um, what are you like?
What'd you think?
Did you get to talk to ZachMiller at all?
Was he?
Was he on the course with youguys?
Speaker 4 (07:47):
Yeah, yeah, um, I talked to him at the finish line
a little bit.
Um, super cool guy.
Uh, I think he signed up likekind of last minute so I was
like, oh, it's going to be kindof cool to uh to see what he can
do on that.
I know he's probably uh tiredfrom training as well, from
training for uh world champscoming up.
But uh, yeah, man, there's likea little out and back kind of
(08:08):
around like halfway and I waslike kind of close to him, maybe
like two, two, three minutesbehind him, and he looked just
in true zach miller fashion Ithink he just looked like he was
hammering and I think no matterthe distance he looks like he's
hammering.
So, um, it was cool to kind ofsee him in action and uh, yeah,
be a be a fan for for a second,be on the same course with the
guy.
So, yeah, it was cool that'scool, man, that's cool.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
I love it all right back to pikes.
I gotta ask you, man, like what, what keeps you coming back?
What about this course?
Is it something you justhaven't like?
I mean, last year, obviously,we had the shortened course, so
that keeps you hungry to go dosomething, whether it be the
center or marathon.
But like, is it the quest to gounder 230?
Like, what has you intriguedabout this race?
Speaker 4 (08:49):
that's a really good question.
I don't know.
I just feel like this will bemy third time racing it.
Um, I've done, uh, bartrellmountain race twice and I've
only gone to the top once,because last year it was
shortened, obviously, and thefirst year that I did it was
that Golden Trail year in 2022.
(09:12):
Then I went to the top thatyear and it just, I don't know,
I just didn't feel like Iexecuted like I could have.
I felt a little like lethargicand it just I think it's a
really hard course and veryniche course to nail and like
actually get it dialed in.
(09:32):
So I think that is the mostintriguing thing to me is like
going back and seeing if I can Imean, you're never going to
feel good from start to finishbut like cross the finish line
knowing that like, oh man, likethat was the best I had, you
know, Um, so that, um, I knowthat I have regardless of uphill
, downhill, um, whatever it is,I know that I have, you know, a
(09:55):
skillset that I can do a lotbetter on it than what my time
shows.
So that's just kind ofsomething that eats at me too.
A little bit is like going inand having a kick-ass race and
and showing that I can climbwell, you know um, and not just
rely on the downhill a littlebit.
So yeah, man, a few things.
It's also like such ahistorical race.
(10:16):
You know, legends have ran thatrace, it's true.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Badass All the legends, man, I, I, it's
interesting to me, legends haveran that race.
It's true, badass All thelegends, man, it's interesting
to me.
I'm going to get the gearsturning in your head for a
second, just because this is aweird year.
Joe's not back, joe's going toWorlds.
I think that's common knowledgenow and it seems like I mean,
we've got a pretty sad elitefield, lot of dudes with with
(10:42):
not a ton of experience, andlike you're a very experienced
dude in this field, does thatchange the calculus in your mind
?
Like, maybe, like you know, areyou looking?
What I'm trying to ask you isis it more you versus you
looking for a time, or is ityou're going to go race to win
or try to win, or at least tryto get on the podium, cause
there's an opportunity this year?
Speaker 4 (11:02):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's a good point.
Um, no matter, I guess, whatthe race is, kind of no matter
who shows up, like you alwayswant to go there to win.
Um, obviously, expectationschange.
Um, you know, a lot of theraces these days include some of
like obviously America's best,the world's best mountain
(11:24):
runners, trail runners, um, sokind of coming at it with like a
a level head and realizing kindof where you're at um, but
still having that that desireand that drive to win is always
going to be there.
Um, that being said, you know,like you said the time, um, it's
such a nasty race that like,like I said uh earlier that like
(11:48):
I just want to execute.
So there is that that feelinggoing in.
I think, if I have a good day,like, no doubt I can battle for
that top five on that thatpodium.
I don't know about um winning,you know, but there's some.
Last time I checked there weresome pretty fast uh dudes,
especially some really goodclimbers.
Um, but yeah, always have thatmindset of of going to a race to
(12:10):
win.
I think that if you're, ifyou're telling yourself you know
, or if you're going to a raceand you're telling yourself like
, uh, I'm not going to win andthese things.
You're just setting yourself upfor failure regardless.
So you're just setting yourselfup for failure regardless.
So you know, dream big, shootbig.
You know if you fail, so what?
But uh, always, always, go tothe race and and have that
mindset that you're going toperform your best and and you're
(12:31):
going to be battling thosedudes.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Dude.
I love to hear it.
I love the approach.
Let's talk a little bit aboutBTMR, where you got on the
podium, you got second place.
You're a former champion ofthis race as well.
You got to throw down with johnum, as is I don't know if you
pronounce his name as ease or asis I should, I, should I feel
like I should have asked himthis anyway what, uh, what'd you
take away from that one?
obviously, john's is just in acrazy class of his.
(12:53):
I mean, he was in like brokenarrow fitness like at that point
.
Um, so what?
Were you in no man's land?
Or like, where were you as faras the race went?
Speaker 4 (13:01):
Yeah, Jonathan, as is , as he's is next level he's,
he's a badass.
What I learned from that raceis that you can't gain much in
the W's but you can sure as helllose a lot.
I think that you know bar.
(13:22):
Um, I think that you know bar,so I've done a second time, I've
done bar and you know it's that, that section after the w's and
it kind of like our after noname creek, I guess I should say
, and it flattens out.
I think being able to have legsthere is kind of um crucial and
I don't know man, it's justlike I said, even bar is like
(13:42):
such a hard race to nail, um,with that climb and everything,
um, but yeah, like I said, uh,being patient in the w's man is
like gonna be kind of myapproach.
Going into pikes and I and Ilearned that from bar is like
it's better to feel good afterthat than to feel good during
that.
Um, yeah, so that's going to bemy approach.
As for like race craft andthings like that, John was
(14:05):
pretty much gone, Um, but uh, meand uh Ben were kind of going
back and forth um a little bit.
He kind of went out hot andthen, um, I was able to catch
him.
I was feeling really good onthe W's and then, uh, I caught
him and then from there I kindof hit a wall and he kind of
just marched away from me alittle bit and then, you know,
(14:29):
once again I relied on mydownhill and just hammered and I
was getting kind of splits fromthe other runners coming up the
mountain.
You know it was like one minuteand then it was like I don't
know 40 seconds and it was like20 seconds and then people were
like he's right there, you canget him.
So that that had motivated me.
Um, I wish that I could havebeen with him a little bit more
on the uphill.
Uh, just cause it's just like Ikeep writing the same old story
(14:52):
with myself, Like, oh, he's notgoing to be good on the climb,
but he's going to hammer thedownhill, and I just like I want
to kind of change that story alittle bit and be able to do
both.
Um, but it was a good mental,um mental battle, like kind of
with myself and kind of withsome of the other runners.
That was like you know, likedon't give up, Like you can
always keep hunting and keepdigging and get it done.
(15:14):
So I think, uh, I learned a lotfrom that experience, Um, but
yeah, yeah, Bar's a bar's a funrace and yeah, it's a good uh,
it's a good little rust busterfor uh pikes.
In a sense, that's a tricky one.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
I gotta ask you this You're your coach, your
brilliant mind in the sport.
I've asked you millions ofquestions this in this off
season to get get ideas andstuff like that.
What have you done to make anychanges in your climbing to to
try and get that extra I don'tknow, one to 2%, if you could
pull that out of yourself.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
So in the past I kind of um, in terms of training for
this this year's pikes, Ididn't uh come at it with like
such a specific approach Like Ikind of would with other races
this summer.
I just uh, you know, had alittle bit of like life changes
um earlier this summer and Ijust felt like I I just needed
to go like run and have fun.
So I spent a lot of time justrunning in the mountains and um
(16:09):
spending a lot of time abovetree line Um in these past
couple of weeks, though, I didum incorporate a little bit more
um pure, just uphill uhthreshold effort efforts, kind
of like aerobic thresholdefforts.
Um in the past, where I noticedthat I improved the most was
was like those 45 to like 60minute like aerobic tempos um on
(16:30):
like similar terrain that Iwould do um for the race.
Uh, like I said, I didn't dotoo many of those this summer.
Um, along with that just beingpaired with like like some
shorter intervals like track orflat stuff, uh, just to keep the
leg turnover Cause for mepersonally.
Um, and I noticed with like someathletes that I coach, that if
we're just doing a vert all thetime, like what happens when we
(16:51):
run vert we go slower, whichkind of creates slow legs, right
.
So, like, always touching onthat speed, always touching on
that turnover, uh generallyhelps.
So, yeah, like when I've, whenI've climbed the best um, which
I think 2024, um, I was inreally good um climbing shape, I
think, and I was justalternating man, I was
alternating like 60 minute up tolike 75 minute uphill tempos
(17:15):
and then I would do um tracksessions like around like 5k to
10k pace, um, and I would kindof alternate those like on like
a 10 day cycle and every, and itreally seemed to work, um, work
well.
But, like I said, this summer,I just I wanted to be kind of
more of a, a soul runner and goout and, uh, just go run in the
mountains, get in the Alpine andum see some cool lakes and tag
(17:37):
some cool peaks.
So, um, we'll see how, how itpans out.
I think, above tree line thisyear I'll I'll probably be
pretty strong, hopefully, um, Ithink I'll be able to do some
hunting up there and and uh,yeah, have a good showing,
hopefully, dude, I love, I loveto hear it, man.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
It's interesting the reason I bring it up.
It's just interesting to me,like.
So I'd say one of the guys tobeat in this race besides
yourself is going to be brianwhitfield.
Here is going to be in the mix.
You have raced them very closein the past, like just at this
past year in june at um, whatwas it the pep, not pepe's, uh?
At the adidas?
Um, what was it the 20k for theadidas terex race?
(18:15):
Uh, or gopro games sorry, thatwould escape me there um, I
don't know.
It's just interesting becauseyou guys have all kind of
bunched up and been pretty closetogether in the past.
So it's going to be fun to seehow this race kind of plays out
with all of you in the mix.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
Yeah, yeah, and I think both of those guys are
amazing uh climbers like here ina as a as an amazing climber.
Um, brian's just good atwhatever he does, so, uh, yeah,
it's going to be interesting tosee.
Uh, like I said, I think mystrong suit's going to be above
tree line and my strength and uhmentality will probably take
(18:48):
over there.
Um, no doubt they're going towalk away from me on the W's,
but I've accepted that and uhknow that I'll.
I'll see them.
Yeah, it's early.
I'll see them later on theclimb, so let's go.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
It's a long race.
It could be a long race.
It could be a long race, like.
I think people forget that.
It's like, yeah, yeah, youmight feel good for the first 2
000 feet and I know you kind ofsaid like once you get to no
name and you got to have legsfor that because you got to run
what high seven minute, yeah,it's probably somewhere in that
range.
When you hit, you know, whenyou get off of no name and it
starts to flatten out a littlebit, which is very difficult to
do, I don't think people realizelike how fast some of the you
(19:19):
know the front guys are going atthat point.
But yeah, the w's, you couldreally really fuck yourself.
It could be a really bad dayout yeah, yeah what is your
favorite part of the course?
oh, favorite part of the course.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
I don't know, I like that, oh, except for they
changed it a little bit.
Um, I really like that section.
Like right after it flattensout and then you get like, as
you're going up to bar and thosetimbers and stuff, like I don't
know, kind of nerding out alittle bit, but like those that
biome at like 10,000 feet.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
Are you talking about the switchbacks?
Speaker 4 (19:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Dude, I hate those.
Speaker 4 (19:55):
And they added, they added so many more stairs, or
like I noticed that in bar and Iwas like, oh man, so that's,
that's such a new challengingthing.
Like, uh, all the the logstairs that they put in, yeah,
and like, when your legs are alittle little tired, those are,
those are high up you gotta jump, dude.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Yeah, how do you think I feel I'm a minute dude?
I gotta really jump, yeah gottawork on the plyos.
Speaker 4 (20:20):
I gotta do something.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
Dude, yeah, no I agree I would do.
There was cursing whoever putthose in, man, because you gotta
really figure out either way togo around.
You gotta go over.
It's not.
Yeah, it's not, it's not ideal.
Um, it's funny.
You say that you like thoseswitchbacks to above bar, like
that's my least favorite part ofthe entire, like race or the
course, if you will, becausethat's like I feel like that's
the make it or break it aspect,like if you're not running that
(20:42):
section especially on the ascent, like if you are, if you're
hiking, it's over man, likethat's where you're gonna get
swallowed up especially
Speaker 4 (20:49):
because you're not even at tree line yet yeah, yeah
, and it's like that weird, likerandom, like percent grade,
where you can't hike it but youhave to run it.
But when you run it it hurts,so it's just like I don don't
know.
It's a.
It's a, it's a tough section,so hopefully it will be able to
hammer it and get into a goodspot, starting there.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
What is?
Uh, and you know you can go,you can be as candid about this
as you want, but like has sincelast week you were kind of
playing with the nutritionstrategy.
Have you adjusted that backdown?
Like what do you think?
Cause, like, a hundred grams ofcarbs is that's a nice, nice
chunk of carbs, but it's.
It's interesting in a race likethis, cause the weather's
always changing, the altitude isconstantly changing.
(21:28):
You know your body is changingas you ascend the mountain.
I almost feel like if youreally wanted to get in the
weeds about it, like you couldalmost have a different strategy
for different sections in a lotof ways, no-transcript gels in
(22:11):
that second half.
Speaker 4 (22:12):
I think another thing too is like, uh, like sodium
intake is a is a big one.
I've been kind of playing withthat, especially like spending
so much time, uh, high altitudethis summer like kind of
learning how much salt I need,uh to not feel like complete ass
.
You know um, obviously athigher altitudes we we need a
little bit more salt.
So I think, kind of preppingfor that too as we get a little
(22:34):
higher, or kind of um like doingsome, some like I don't know
what the word I'm trying to findis like uh, precautionary
things, like early on um toprepare yourself for later,
especially you know if, if foodisn't going down or gels aren't
going down as easy, um justmaking sure that you're taking
(22:56):
care of yourself soon, just likewe kind of talked about about
the W's um being being smartwith your energy early on so
that later on, uh you can bankthat and make sure that that
you're there to play yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
No, I love it.
Did you do?
Have you done a sweat test yetI?
Speaker 2 (23:12):
have not, I have not.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
I gotta say, man, I was thoroughly impressed with
the sweat test.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Is it cool, highly recommend.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Yeah, yeah, it's a little expensive, but like I was
like huh, I mean, I always kindof assumed I was a salty
sweater, but I didn't know.
(23:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it'scrazy, once you take in the
right amount of milligrams ofsodium or a little bit more, you
feel really good, it's greatscience man.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
Uh, tell me about this mount taylor 50k you're
running at the end of september,dude.
Mount taylor 50k is the prideof new mexico.
Oh man, uh, it's a hard one.
It's a hard one for sure, it's50.
It's a little shy of 50k.
It's like 29 miles or likemiles.
Got a little over 6,000 feet ofclimbing and you're, you're
above 9,000, 10,000 feet, likethe whole time.
(24:00):
And then the summit of MountTaylor itself is like 11, 3 or
11, 5 or something like that.
It's a tough course, if youlike.
If you look at it by thenumbers, it doesn't seem crazy,
but when you look at the courseprofile it's, it's very
difficult.
A lot of that 6,000 comes inthe last 10 miles.
You have a two major climbs, oneof the first one being you go
(24:21):
up to the summit of Mount Taylor.
It's like, if I remembercorrectly, like maybe three or
four miles, and you basicallyjust go straight up the side of
the mountain and tag the peakand then you drop straight down
into this hole it's called watercanyon, and then you're gonna
climb your butt back out andthen, uh, like a couple mile
descent down to the finish.
So it's a it's a strengthrunner's course, for sure.
(24:42):
It's not uh crazy fast oranything like that, uh, but kind
of having those climbing legsand being strong and kind of
gritting it out in those last 10miles is important.
Um, I like to do that.
You know, I got a lot of uh, alot of friends and stuff back in
New Mexico, so I'm excited togo back down there and hang out
and race a 50 K with uh, with myfriends, and maybe drink a
(25:04):
couple of beers after.
We'll see.
And yeah, it's going to be agood time.
Man, it's a.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
I would recommend it to uh, to anybody who likes a
mountainous, 50 K, that's forsure.
Oh man All right, so forlisteners and myself.
I gotta put that on the list,dude, I like I like to hear it.
Um, yeah, I'm starting to get50 K curious.
I'm not quite there yet, butI'm sorry to get like longer,
anything longer than 10 Kcurious.
(25:29):
We'll say, um, have you?
Do you feel like spending thissummer in Colorado has made you
like better with altitude?
I know last year you were downin New Mexico living at a little
bit lower altitude, so youthink this is, uh, just like a
net positive for you, altitudewise.
Speaker 4 (25:44):
Yeah, um, I've kind of aside from when I lived in
new mexico.
I kind of always lived ataltitude, um, and then moving
down to albuquerque, you know, Iwas living at like 5 000 feet.
I think it's funny because,like, like track and road
runners are like doing altitudecamp and it's like five like
that low altitude for trailrunners, um.
But yeah, moving back up here,uh, where I live now, is like at
(26:04):
8 300 feet, oh, wow, um, so ittook me.
I thought that I was going to,it wasn't going to affect me
that much, um, but like, thefirst two weeks that I was here
and was was training, I noticedlike a little bit of elevated
heart rate and things like that.
So I don't know, it's hard tosay if it's, if it's benefited
me, because every racing orevery race I've done has kind of
been at even higher altitude.
(26:25):
Um, I do feel like I'm moreprepared, like I said, like I
spent a lot of time above treeline.
So I'm excited to see, see howthat plays out.
But yeah, I think, just overall, um, probably a little bit
fitter um, in the mountains, uh,I think there's different types
of fitness and different thingsthat you can be good at, but I
(26:46):
think uh doing some bigmountains.
I think I'm pretty fit rightnow.
So, uh, and I think thealtitude definitely, definitely
played a factor for sure.
So, yeah, I'm grateful to uhgrateful to live where I live
now and uh be at the altitudethat I'm at and have access to
to go do those things.
So, uh, you kind of take it forgranted when you live down in
the desert a little bit, so it'suh have it out the back door.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
Yeah, no, I agree, I agree it's fun following your
Strava.
You, uh, you put good stuff up.
Um last thing I know it'sprobably hard to think about
this, especially with two raceson the horizon already.
Are you starting to think about2026 at all?
Like any, uh anything on yourthat you really want to do?
I know you and I text back andforth and every now and then
you'd be like, oh dude, I reallywant to do this.
(27:29):
So is there anything that likeyou're like I have to do, like I
have to make this happen?
Speaker 4 (27:34):
Yes, uh, I'm always thinking about the future, Like
racing is what like motivates meand drives me.
So it's like oh, I should dothis, I should do this.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
Um, gets me in trouble, obviously, like I have
tons of rates in september um,but like, yeah, you and I were
texting and you said the rut,and I think I think that just
has to happen.
Yeah, I can see that dude,you're such especially like
technical descending, likethat's your jam homie, like I
think that that has to happen.
Speaker 4 (28:01):
So you and me next year we'll be at the rut.
Okay, um, early season, I don'tknow.
Like, uh, I knew someone whodid a telluride mountain run and
that it's.
It looks so badass, but it'ssuper close to the rut and I
think, like recovery kind of,would be a little iffy,
especially if you wanted to bein a shape for the rut.
(28:23):
Um, I don't know, I think I'mgonna do gopro games again, man,
because it's just like such aburner it's competitive yeah,
all the freaking dogs are there.
Um, it's a lot of fun, theenvironment's a lot of fun, I
don't know.
And then I was also kind oftoying with the fact like I had
so much fun this summer thatlike maybe I don't race that
(28:44):
much next year, like aside fromlike maybe one or two really big
ones and and then maybe chasesome fun FKTs or just go run
around in the mountains and havefun, kind of like what I did
this summer.
But uh, and then there's always, uh, my favorite race of all
time up and over.
Can't say no to that.
That's a good one, dude.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
That's a good one.
I still that race.
I still have not gone out toit's on the list it.
Uh, I, you know it's funny,like jenny and christy, like all
of them, always go race it andI'm like man yeah like one of
these years, I gotta make ithappen.
Um, yeah, yeah, it's good.
Thank you, I think you wouldlike it.
I think so too.
It's like a series race just alittle.
Uh, actually similar altitude,similar everything.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
So yeah, it would be dope.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
Well, dude, wish you the best of luck.
It's always fun having thesechats and catching up.
We'll continue this going.
But yeah, man, congratulationson everything so far this season
.
I'm wishing you the best ofluck and we'll be in touch bro.
Speaker 4 (29:38):
Thanks, man, appreciate it All, right, jeff?
Yeah, man, thank you, we'll seeyou next time.
Going up.
It's just you're constantlywondering if you're going too
hard and if you're going to die.
So, like they say, it's anultimate mental battle.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Is that what keeps bringing you back, year after
year, the ultimate?
Speaker 1 (00:13):
mental battle.
Yeah, I don't care what racersshow up, even if somebody shows
up better than me.
You know this is a test againstyourself.
Everybody that's out here isdoing it and everybody's testing
themselves, and it's great.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
It's called America's Ultimate Challenge.
Each year, over 2,500 runnersflock to Manitou Springs to
challenge themselves against themountain known as Pike's Peak.
This year, runners from 46different states and eight
foreign countries have come.
They all start here and maketheir way towards the clouds.
It's time, thank you.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Ladies and gentlemen, we are live flew by quick man.
(02:04):
I feel like we were justchatting.
Like this is, this is nuts.
Like here we are.
We're both heavily bearded and,uh, a little bit older now
gotta get the beard going beforewinter.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
Uh, winter comes, so so we're prepared.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
You know what man who knows?
I mean, I haven't checked theweather for the pikes peak
ascent and marathon, but I meanI heard the other day, didn't it
?
It did snow the other day.
We're rolling the dice, dude.
I don't know what we're doinghere, but like it could be, I
swear to God if they, even if itsnows like we're going to the
top.
We have to.
It can't not happen.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Last year was.
I still think last year weshould have went to the top, but
I don't know if that's apopular opinion or not, but I
think we should have.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
You're not the only one who feels that way, Just
about 99.9% of people.
I, you know I made a mistake oflike telling people I'm on the
board now because I've had I'veeven had women reach out to me
asking to create a um petitionto move the race back to August.
So, like, people feel verystrongly about the uh, about the
(03:01):
situation right now.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
So, yeah, how many, how many years has it been in
september?
Speaker 3 (03:05):
like four or five I think this is the third or
fourth, if I remember correctly,we're gonna move from what I
understand I don't know if thisis like, I don't know, maybe
this could be.
You've heard it first here weare definitely next year gonna
move it back, I think, to thebeginning of september, or or
the first two weekends inseptember, if I remember
correctly.
So it might be moved back aweek or two weeks.
(03:26):
Um, and it was something to dowith I don't know, something in
manitou they were doing or theyneeded, they needed the trails
for something I I honestlycannot remember.
But, um, yeah, dude, I'm allfor august.
I think we need to go back toaugust.
I mean, who cares about thethunderstorms?
You know it's all right, wedidn't.
You know, lightning, a littlebit of lightning adds a little
parody.
But if there's snow, you knowwe don't need anybody freezing
(03:46):
to death on the mountain.
It could be.
Speaker 4 (03:47):
Yeah, it'd be awkward and like, even if it doesn't
snow, it's cold.
Like after you cool down, afteryou get to the top, it's cold.
Man, oh, it's freezing up thereit's terrible.
Yeah, you're all sucked dry andwithered away, so it's.
It's a tough one for sure, ohman, man.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
So what about the ascent intrigued you this year?
Was it more the like you justdidn't want to do the marathon
again?
Or what are we doing here?
What's?
Speaker 1 (04:10):
the.
Speaker 4 (04:12):
Man, I don't know.
Okay, so I was a littlerambunctious and I signed up for
way too many races in Septemberand obviously that descent is
going to beat you up really bad.
And obviously that descent isgoing to beat you up really bad.
Um, so my thought was like, oh,if I, if I do the ascent, then
I'll recover, you know, a lotfaster and be able to do this
50k, uh down in new mexico thefollowing weekend.
(04:34):
Um, I'm kind of sad about itbecause, uh, like we've talked
about in the past, like mydownhill is just, uh, it's my
bread and butter.
So I'm kind of taking that awayand kind of putting myself in
an uncomfortable situation.
But it's going to be fun, uh,regardless.
So so, yeah, ultimately I wentwith the ascent because, uh, I
wanted to do a couple otherraces and didn't want to be
(04:55):
fully destroyed from thatdownhill.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Totally understood, man.
How, um I mean dude, you've runso fast on this course, like
what's your fastest ascent time?
It's like 2, 2, 11, 2, 17, whatis it?
Speaker 4 (05:04):
my ascent time.
Yeah, no, it's not that fast.
I'm in that 230, so I'd like to.
Yeah, I'd like to.
I'd like to crack 230 this goaround, but uh, we'll see.
We'll see what happens.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
See how I feel so you just did a high altitude race.
How did you feel?
Uh, I mean, obviously likedevil and divide, especially for
50k, is that's a long timeabove 10,000 feet.
How did you?
How'd you feel during that?
Um?
Speaker 4 (05:28):
I didn't taper that much for it because I knew that
you know, pikes was a little bitum two weeks after.
So I kind of wanted to likeprolong that and I went into it
like slightly tired.
Um I was feeling.
I was feeling pretty dang good,um, maybe about five miles.
In the first five miles it tookme a little bit to get, uh,
(05:48):
warmed up.
It kind of starts on like alike a forest road and that's
not and I'm not like the biggestfan of that.
You know, I love, love me somesingle track for sure, um.
But I was feeling good, I wasfeeling really good, um, coming
through like 13, 14, 15 miles,um.
But I had changed something upto which you know, like we all
know, you're not supposed to dothings new and racing.
(06:09):
Yeah, I had done uh about 75grams of carbs per hour in
training and I was like, ah,what the hell I'll do, I'll push
it and I'll go a hundred gramsper hour, um, for devil, on a
divide, cause I was just, youknow, 50 K, I wanted to make
(06:30):
sure that in that last 10 milesI kind of had a little extra
juice in the, in the body, tokeep me going.
But body, uh, stomach kind ofrevolted on that and I had lost
uh two of my bottles.
Uh, nice, uh, projectile vomitout out at tree, out at tree
line at like 18 miles and thenkind of, from that point on, it
was just, uh, just get me to thefinish line.
So it was like if you were touh storybook, uh, ultra, I think
(06:50):
that was.
Uh, you look in a dictionarythat my race was definitely that
.
Oh my.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
God dude, all right, All right.
So we learned a little bitabout the, uh, the high carb.
You know, listen, man, it can'tbe worse than me.
I dude, I got two and a halfmiles into a cirque race and
cramped.
I don't think anyone's everdone that other than me.
All right, so you know, it's,it's, it's, uh.
It's just one of those days tofigure shit out and hope for the
best yeah, yeah, it's just youlive and learn.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
but that course, dude , is so epic, like you're
spending so much time above treeline and running like sweet
ridges and um, it was like, yeah, I was super bummed and I felt
like crap, kind of like doeslast 12 miles.
But I mean, it was just, it'sso epic.
I would highly recommend it forsure.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
I've heard really good things about the course.
Nick to Sarin uh, the 22 K onthe podium there.
I've heard like amazing thingsabout both races.
Um, what are you like?
What'd you think?
Did you get to talk to ZachMiller at all?
Was he?
Was he on the course with youguys?
Speaker 4 (07:47):
Yeah, yeah, um, I talked to him at the finish line
a little bit.
Um, super cool guy.
Uh, I think he signed up likekind of last minute so I was
like, oh, it's going to be kindof cool to uh to see what he can
do on that.
I know he's probably uh tiredfrom training as well, from
training for uh world champscoming up.
But uh, yeah, man, there's likea little out and back kind of
(08:08):
around like halfway and I waslike kind of close to him, maybe
like two, two, three minutesbehind him, and he looked just
in true zach miller fashion Ithink he just looked like he was
hammering and I think no matterthe distance he looks like he's
hammering.
So, um, it was cool to kind ofsee him in action and uh, yeah,
be a be a fan for for a second,be on the same course with the
guy.
So, yeah, it was cool that'scool, man, that's cool.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
I love it all right back to pikes.
I gotta ask you, man, like what, what keeps you coming back?
What about this course?
Is it something you justhaven't like?
I mean, last year, obviously,we had the shortened course, so
that keeps you hungry to go dosomething, whether it be the
center or marathon.
But like, is it the quest to gounder 230?
Like, what has you intriguedabout this race?
Speaker 4 (08:49):
that's a really good question.
I don't know.
I just feel like this will bemy third time racing it.
Um, I've done, uh, bartrellmountain race twice and I've
only gone to the top once,because last year it was
shortened, obviously, and thefirst year that I did it was
that Golden Trail year in 2022.
(09:12):
Then I went to the top thatyear and it just, I don't know,
I just didn't feel like Iexecuted like I could have.
I felt a little like lethargicand it just I think it's a
really hard course and veryniche course to nail and like
actually get it dialed in.
(09:32):
So I think that is the mostintriguing thing to me is like
going back and seeing if I can Imean, you're never going to
feel good from start to finishbut like cross the finish line
knowing that like, oh man, likethat was the best I had, you
know, Um, so that, um, I knowthat I have regardless of uphill
, downhill, um, whatever it is,I know that I have, you know, a
(09:55):
skillset that I can do a lotbetter on it than what my time
shows.
So that's just kind ofsomething that eats at me too.
A little bit is like going inand having a kick-ass race and
and showing that I can climbwell, you know um, and not just
rely on the downhill a littlebit.
So yeah, man, a few things.
It's also like such ahistorical race.
(10:16):
You know, legends have ran thatrace, it's true.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Badass All the legends, man, I, I, it's
interesting to me, legends haveran that race.
It's true, badass All thelegends, man, it's interesting
to me.
I'm going to get the gearsturning in your head for a
second, just because this is aweird year.
Joe's not back, joe's going toWorlds.
I think that's common knowledgenow and it seems like I mean,
we've got a pretty sad elitefield, lot of dudes with with
(10:42):
not a ton of experience, andlike you're a very experienced
dude in this field, does thatchange the calculus in your mind
?
Like, maybe, like you know, areyou looking?
What I'm trying to ask you isis it more you versus you
looking for a time, or is ityou're going to go race to win
or try to win, or at least tryto get on the podium, cause
there's an opportunity this year?
Speaker 4 (11:02):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's a good point.
Um, no matter, I guess, whatthe race is, kind of no matter
who shows up, like you alwayswant to go there to win.
Um, obviously, expectationschange.
Um, you know, a lot of theraces these days include some of
like obviously America's best,the world's best mountain
(11:24):
runners, trail runners, um, sokind of coming at it with like a
a level head and realizing kindof where you're at um, but
still having that that desireand that drive to win is always
going to be there.
Um, that being said, you know,like you said the time, um, it's
such a nasty race that like,like I said uh earlier that like
(11:48):
I just want to execute.
So there is that that feelinggoing in.
I think, if I have a good day,like, no doubt I can battle for
that top five on that thatpodium.
I don't know about um winning,you know, but there's some.
Last time I checked there weresome pretty fast uh dudes,
especially some really goodclimbers.
Um, but yeah, always have thatmindset of of going to a race to
(12:10):
win.
I think that if you're, ifyou're telling yourself you know
, or if you're going to a raceand you're telling yourself like
, uh, I'm not going to win andthese things.
You're just setting yourself upfor failure regardless.
So you're just setting yourselfup for failure regardless.
So you know, dream big, shootbig.
You know if you fail, so what?
But uh, always, always, go tothe race and and have that
mindset that you're going toperform your best and and you're
(12:31):
going to be battling thosedudes.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Dude.
I love to hear it.
I love the approach.
Let's talk a little bit aboutBTMR, where you got on the
podium, you got second place.
You're a former champion ofthis race as well.
You got to throw down with johnum, as is I don't know if you
pronounce his name as ease or asis I should, I, should I feel
like I should have asked himthis anyway what, uh, what'd you
take away from that one?
obviously, john's is just in acrazy class of his.
(12:53):
I mean, he was in like brokenarrow fitness like at that point
.
Um, so what?
Were you in no man's land?
Or like, where were you as faras the race went?
Speaker 4 (13:01):
Yeah, Jonathan, as is , as he's is next level he's,
he's a badass.
What I learned from that raceis that you can't gain much in
the W's but you can sure as helllose a lot.
I think that you know bar.
(13:22):
Um, I think that you know bar,so I've done a second time, I've
done bar and you know it's that, that section after the w's and
it kind of like our after noname creek, I guess I should say
, and it flattens out.
I think being able to have legsthere is kind of um crucial and
I don't know man, it's justlike I said, even bar is like
(13:42):
such a hard race to nail, um,with that climb and everything,
um, but yeah, like I said, uh,being patient in the w's man is
like gonna be kind of myapproach.
Going into pikes and I and Ilearned that from bar is like
it's better to feel good afterthat than to feel good during
that.
Um, yeah, so that's going to bemy approach.
As for like race craft andthings like that, John was
(14:05):
pretty much gone, Um, but uh, meand uh Ben were kind of going
back and forth um a little bit.
He kind of went out hot andthen, um, I was able to catch
him.
I was feeling really good onthe W's and then, uh, I caught
him and then from there I kindof hit a wall and he kind of
just marched away from me alittle bit and then, you know,
(14:29):
once again I relied on mydownhill and just hammered and I
was getting kind of splits fromthe other runners coming up the
mountain.
You know it was like one minuteand then it was like I don't
know 40 seconds and it was like20 seconds and then people were
like he's right there, you canget him.
So that that had motivated me.
Um, I wish that I could havebeen with him a little bit more
on the uphill.
Uh, just cause it's just like Ikeep writing the same old story
(14:52):
with myself, Like, oh, he's notgoing to be good on the climb,
but he's going to hammer thedownhill, and I just like I want
to kind of change that story alittle bit and be able to do
both.
Um, but it was a good mental,um mental battle, like kind of
with myself and kind of withsome of the other runners.
That was like you know, likedon't give up, Like you can
always keep hunting and keepdigging and get it done.
(15:14):
So I think, uh, I learned a lotfrom that experience, Um, but
yeah, yeah, Bar's a bar's a funrace and yeah, it's a good uh,
it's a good little rust busterfor uh pikes.
In a sense, that's a tricky one.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
I gotta ask you this You're your coach, your
brilliant mind in the sport.
I've asked you millions ofquestions this in this off
season to get get ideas andstuff like that.
What have you done to make anychanges in your climbing to to
try and get that extra I don'tknow, one to 2%, if you could
pull that out of yourself.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
So in the past I kind of um, in terms of training for
this this year's pikes, Ididn't uh come at it with like
such a specific approach Like Ikind of would with other races
this summer.
I just uh, you know, had alittle bit of like life changes
um earlier this summer and Ijust felt like I I just needed
to go like run and have fun.
So I spent a lot of time justrunning in the mountains and um
(16:09):
spending a lot of time abovetree line Um in these past
couple of weeks, though, I didum incorporate a little bit more
um pure, just uphill uhthreshold effort efforts, kind
of like aerobic thresholdefforts.
Um in the past, where I noticedthat I improved the most was
was like those 45 to like 60minute like aerobic tempos um on
(16:30):
like similar terrain that Iwould do um for the race.
Uh, like I said, I didn't dotoo many of those this summer.
Um, along with that just beingpaired with like like some
shorter intervals like track orflat stuff, uh, just to keep the
leg turnover Cause for mepersonally.
Um, and I noticed with like someathletes that I coach, that if
we're just doing a vert all thetime, like what happens when we
(16:51):
run vert we go slower, whichkind of creates slow legs, right
.
So, like, always touching onthat speed, always touching on
that turnover, uh generallyhelps.
So, yeah, like when I've, whenI've climbed the best um, which
I think 2024, um, I was inreally good um climbing shape, I
think, and I was justalternating man, I was
alternating like 60 minute up tolike 75 minute uphill tempos
(17:15):
and then I would do um tracksessions like around like 5k to
10k pace, um, and I would kindof alternate those like on like
a 10 day cycle and every, and itreally seemed to work, um, work
well.
But, like I said, this summer,I just I wanted to be kind of
more of a, a soul runner and goout and, uh, just go run in the
mountains, get in the Alpine andum see some cool lakes and tag
(17:37):
some cool peaks.
So, um, we'll see how, how itpans out.
I think, above tree line thisyear I'll I'll probably be
pretty strong, hopefully, um, Ithink I'll be able to do some
hunting up there and and uh,yeah, have a good showing,
hopefully, dude, I love, I loveto hear it, man.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
It's interesting the reason I bring it up.
It's just interesting to me,like.
So I'd say one of the guys tobeat in this race besides
yourself is going to be brianwhitfield.
Here is going to be in the mix.
You have raced them very closein the past, like just at this
past year in june at um, whatwas it the pep, not pepe's, uh?
At the adidas?
Um, what was it the 20k for theadidas terex race?
(18:15):
Uh, or gopro games sorry, thatwould escape me there um, I
don't know.
It's just interesting becauseyou guys have all kind of
bunched up and been pretty closetogether in the past.
So it's going to be fun to seehow this race kind of plays out
with all of you in the mix.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
Yeah, yeah, and I think both of those guys are
amazing uh climbers like here ina as a as an amazing climber.
Um, brian's just good atwhatever he does, so, uh, yeah,
it's going to be interesting tosee.
Uh, like I said, I think mystrong suit's going to be above
tree line and my strength and uhmentality will probably take
(18:48):
over there.
Um, no doubt they're going towalk away from me on the W's,
but I've accepted that and uhknow that I'll.
I'll see them.
Yeah, it's early.
I'll see them later on theclimb, so let's go.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
It's a long race.
It could be a long race.
It could be a long race, like.
I think people forget that.
It's like, yeah, yeah, youmight feel good for the first 2
000 feet and I know you kind ofsaid like once you get to no
name and you got to have legsfor that because you got to run
what high seven minute, yeah,it's probably somewhere in that
range.
When you hit, you know, whenyou get off of no name and it
starts to flatten out a littlebit, which is very difficult to
do, I don't think people realizelike how fast some of the you
(19:19):
know the front guys are going atthat point.
But yeah, the w's, you couldreally really fuck yourself.
It could be a really bad dayout yeah, yeah what is your
favorite part of the course?
oh, favorite part of the course.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
I don't know, I like that, oh, except for they
changed it a little bit.
Um, I really like that section.
Like right after it flattensout and then you get like, as
you're going up to bar and thosetimbers and stuff, like I don't
know, kind of nerding out alittle bit, but like those that
biome at like 10,000 feet.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
Are you talking about the switchbacks?
Speaker 4 (19:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Dude, I hate those.
Speaker 4 (19:55):
And they added, they added so many more stairs, or
like I noticed that in bar and Iwas like, oh man, so that's,
that's such a new challengingthing.
Like, uh, all the the logstairs that they put in, yeah,
and like, when your legs are alittle little tired, those are,
those are high up you gotta jump, dude.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Yeah, how do you think I feel I'm a minute dude?
I gotta really jump, yeah gottawork on the plyos.
Speaker 4 (20:20):
I gotta do something.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
Dude, yeah, no I agree I would do.
There was cursing whoever putthose in, man, because you gotta
really figure out either way togo around.
You gotta go over.
It's not.
Yeah, it's not, it's not ideal.
Um, it's funny.
You say that you like thoseswitchbacks to above bar, like
that's my least favorite part ofthe entire, like race or the
course, if you will, becausethat's like I feel like that's
the make it or break it aspect,like if you're not running that
(20:42):
section especially on the ascent, like if you are, if you're
hiking, it's over man, likethat's where you're gonna get
swallowed up especially
Speaker 4 (20:49):
because you're not even at tree line yet yeah, yeah
, and it's like that weird, likerandom, like percent grade,
where you can't hike it but youhave to run it.
But when you run it it hurts,so it's just like I don don't
know.
It's a.
It's a, it's a tough section,so hopefully it will be able to
hammer it and get into a goodspot, starting there.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
What is?
Uh, and you know you can go,you can be as candid about this
as you want, but like has sincelast week you were kind of
playing with the nutritionstrategy.
Have you adjusted that backdown?
Like what do you think?
Cause, like, a hundred grams ofcarbs is that's a nice, nice
chunk of carbs, but it's.
It's interesting in a race likethis, cause the weather's
always changing, the altitude isconstantly changing.
(21:28):
You know your body is changingas you ascend the mountain.
I almost feel like if youreally wanted to get in the
weeds about it, like you couldalmost have a different strategy
for different sections in a lotof ways, no-transcript gels in
(22:11):
that second half.
Speaker 4 (22:12):
I think another thing too is like, uh, like sodium
intake is a is a big one.
I've been kind of playing withthat, especially like spending
so much time, uh, high altitudethis summer like kind of
learning how much salt I need,uh to not feel like complete ass
.
You know um, obviously athigher altitudes we we need a
little bit more salt.
So I think, kind of preppingfor that too as we get a little
(22:34):
higher, or kind of um like doingsome, some like I don't know
what the word I'm trying to findis like uh, precautionary
things, like early on um toprepare yourself for later,
especially you know if, if foodisn't going down or gels aren't
going down as easy, um justmaking sure that you're taking
(22:56):
care of yourself soon, just likewe kind of talked about about
the W's um being being smartwith your energy early on so
that later on, uh you can bankthat and make sure that that
you're there to play yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
No, I love it.
Did you do?
Have you done a sweat test yetI?
Speaker 2 (23:12):
have not, I have not.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
I gotta say, man, I was thoroughly impressed with
the sweat test.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Is it cool, highly recommend.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Yeah, yeah, it's a little expensive, but like I was
like huh, I mean, I always kindof assumed I was a salty
sweater, but I didn't know.
(23:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it'scrazy, once you take in the
right amount of milligrams ofsodium or a little bit more, you
feel really good, it's greatscience man.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
Uh, tell me about this mount taylor 50k you're
running at the end of september,dude.
Mount taylor 50k is the prideof new mexico.
Oh man, uh, it's a hard one.
It's a hard one for sure, it's50.
It's a little shy of 50k.
It's like 29 miles or likemiles.
Got a little over 6,000 feet ofclimbing and you're, you're
above 9,000, 10,000 feet, likethe whole time.
(24:00):
And then the summit of MountTaylor itself is like 11, 3 or
11, 5 or something like that.
It's a tough course, if youlike.
If you look at it by thenumbers, it doesn't seem crazy,
but when you look at the courseprofile it's, it's very
difficult.
A lot of that 6,000 comes inthe last 10 miles.
You have a two major climbs, oneof the first one being you go
(24:21):
up to the summit of Mount Taylor.
It's like, if I remembercorrectly, like maybe three or
four miles, and you basicallyjust go straight up the side of
the mountain and tag the peakand then you drop straight down
into this hole it's called watercanyon, and then you're gonna
climb your butt back out andthen, uh, like a couple mile
descent down to the finish.
So it's a it's a strengthrunner's course, for sure.
(24:42):
It's not uh crazy fast oranything like that, uh, but kind
of having those climbing legsand being strong and kind of
gritting it out in those last 10miles is important.
Um, I like to do that.
You know, I got a lot of uh, alot of friends and stuff back in
New Mexico, so I'm excited togo back down there and hang out
and race a 50 K with uh, with myfriends, and maybe drink a
(25:04):
couple of beers after.
We'll see.
And yeah, it's going to be agood time.
Man, it's a.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
I would recommend it to uh, to anybody who likes a
mountainous, 50 K, that's forsure.
Oh man All right, so forlisteners and myself.
I gotta put that on the list,dude, I like I like to hear it.
Um, yeah, I'm starting to get50 K curious.
I'm not quite there yet, butI'm sorry to get like longer,
anything longer than 10 Kcurious.
(25:29):
We'll say, um, have you?
Do you feel like spending thissummer in Colorado has made you
like better with altitude?
I know last year you were downin New Mexico living at a little
bit lower altitude, so youthink this is, uh, just like a
net positive for you, altitudewise.
Speaker 4 (25:44):
Yeah, um, I've kind of aside from when I lived in
new mexico.
I kind of always lived ataltitude, um, and then moving
down to albuquerque, you know, Iwas living at like 5 000 feet.
I think it's funny because,like, like track and road
runners are like doing altitudecamp and it's like five like
that low altitude for trailrunners, um.
But yeah, moving back up here,uh, where I live now, is like at
(26:04):
8 300 feet, oh, wow, um, so ittook me.
I thought that I was going to,it wasn't going to affect me
that much, um, but like, thefirst two weeks that I was here
and was was training, I noticedlike a little bit of elevated
heart rate and things like that.
So I don't know, it's hard tosay if it's, if it's benefited
me, because every racing orevery race I've done has kind of
been at even higher altitude.
(26:25):
Um, I do feel like I'm moreprepared, like I said, like I
spent a lot of time above treeline.
So I'm excited to see, see howthat plays out.
But yeah, I think, just overall, um, probably a little bit
fitter um, in the mountains, uh,I think there's different types
of fitness and different thingsthat you can be good at, but I
(26:46):
think uh doing some bigmountains.
I think I'm pretty fit rightnow.
So, uh, and I think thealtitude definitely, definitely
played a factor for sure.
So, yeah, I'm grateful to uhgrateful to live where I live
now and uh be at the altitudethat I'm at and have access to
to go do those things.
So, uh, you kind of take it forgranted when you live down in
the desert a little bit, so it'suh have it out the back door.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
Yeah, no, I agree, I agree it's fun following your
Strava.
You, uh, you put good stuff up.
Um last thing I know it'sprobably hard to think about
this, especially with two raceson the horizon already.
Are you starting to think about2026 at all?
Like any, uh anything on yourthat you really want to do?
I know you and I text back andforth and every now and then
you'd be like, oh dude, I reallywant to do this.
(27:29):
So is there anything that likeyou're like I have to do, like I
have to make this happen?
Speaker 4 (27:34):
Yes, uh, I'm always thinking about the future, Like
racing is what like motivates meand drives me.
So it's like oh, I should dothis, I should do this.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
Um, gets me in trouble, obviously, like I have
tons of rates in september um,but like, yeah, you and I were
texting and you said the rut,and I think I think that just
has to happen.
Yeah, I can see that dude,you're such especially like
technical descending, likethat's your jam homie, like I
think that that has to happen.
Speaker 4 (28:01):
So you and me next year we'll be at the rut.
Okay, um, early season, I don'tknow.
Like, uh, I knew someone whodid a telluride mountain run and
that it's.
It looks so badass, but it'ssuper close to the rut and I
think, like recovery kind of,would be a little iffy,
especially if you wanted to bein a shape for the rut.
(28:23):
Um, I don't know, I think I'mgonna do gopro games again, man,
because it's just like such aburner it's competitive yeah,
all the freaking dogs are there.
Um, it's a lot of fun, theenvironment's a lot of fun, I
don't know.
And then I was also kind oftoying with the fact like I had
so much fun this summer thatlike maybe I don't race that
(28:44):
much next year, like aside fromlike maybe one or two really big
ones and and then maybe chasesome fun FKTs or just go run
around in the mountains and havefun, kind of like what I did
this summer.
But uh, and then there's always, uh, my favorite race of all
time up and over.
Can't say no to that.
That's a good one, dude.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
That's a good one.
I still that race.
I still have not gone out toit's on the list it.
Uh, I, you know it's funny,like jenny and christy, like all
of them, always go race it andI'm like man yeah like one of
these years, I gotta make ithappen.
Um, yeah, yeah, it's good.
Thank you, I think you wouldlike it.
I think so too.
It's like a series race just alittle.
Uh, actually similar altitude,similar everything.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
So yeah, it would be dope.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
Well, dude, wish you the best of luck.
It's always fun having thesechats and catching up.
We'll continue this going.
But yeah, man, congratulationson everything so far this season
.
I'm wishing you the best ofluck and we'll be in touch bro.
Speaker 4 (29:38):
Thanks, man, appreciate it All, right, jeff?
Yeah, man, thank you, we'll seeyou next time.
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