November 2, 2023 • 52 mins
Imagine a future where materials like leather are sustainable, ethical, and biobased, harming no animals in its production. Imagine a world where your leather handbag could be thrown in your garden at the end of its life, where it could decompose and actively regenerate the soil.
Luckily for us, this vision of an entangled future where nature-grown and human-made collide is closer than you think. (Hat tip to pioneers like Neri Oxman, Materiom and Blue City Lab, biodesign
Join us in discussion with one of our members, Tina Funder, as we explore her journey from the founder of the successful sustainable fashion label Life on Mars through to the founding of Alt. Leather, a next-gen materials startup pushing the boundaries of what is possible with regard to circular, bio-based leather alternatives.
As successful entrepreneurs know, the path to innovation is filled with countless challenges. Tina shares her experience of fundraising for her startup and outlines the importance of building a strong network along the way. She also shares how narrative can build rapport with investors and why due diligence is crucial before entering partnerships.
Want to know more about Alt? Here are some links:
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This experimental and emergent podcast will continue adapting and evolving in response to our ever-changing environment and the community we support. If there are any topics you'd like us to cover, folks you'd like us to bring onto the show, or live events you feel would benefit the ecosystem, drop us a line at hello@colabs.com.au.
We're working on and supporting a range of community-led, impact-oriented initiatives spanning conservation, bioremediation, synthetic biology, biomaterials, and systems innovation.
If you have an idea that has the potential to support the thriving of people and the planet, get in contact! We'd love to help you bring your bio-led idea to life.
Otherwise, join our online community of innovators and change-makers via this link.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Strange Attractor, an
experimental podcast fromColapse, a transdisciplinary
innovation hub and biotechnologyco-working lab based in
Melbourne, australia.
I'm your co-host, sam Wines,and alongside my co-founder,
andrew Gray, we'll delve deepinto the intersection of biology
, technology and society throughthe lens of complexity and
(00:22):
systems thinking.
Join us on a journey ofdiscovery as we explore how
transdisciplinary innovation,informed by life's regenerative
patterns and processes, couldhelp us catalyze the transition
towards a thriving future forpeople and the planet.
Hello and welcome to Episode 4.
(00:45):
This week we sat down with TinaFunder from Ault Leather.
So Ault Leather is a next-genmaterials organisation working
on a biobased home, compostablecircular alternative to leather.
So they've been in the lab forgeez it feels like probably six
months now.
(01:05):
It's been such a pleasurewatching this project go from
ideation to actualisation, fromprototype now through to raising
her first round of funding.
Yeah, I guess it's just supernice for us to be a part of this
journey.
It's the whole reason whyColapse exists to be able to
support impact-orientedinnovation.
(01:26):
And, yeah, tina's paving theway for the emergence of an
Australian biomaterial ecosystem, which is super cool.
Anyway, I'll stop talking nowand let you enjoy the
conversation with Tina Funder.
We don't even have to have aformal way of getting into the
(01:48):
conversation.
We can just start having a chatand sort of see where it goes.
This is intentionally more realand less polished than a lot of
other conversations.
It kind of plays into the livinglab, sort of thing.
(02:09):
So you find you can also twistthis here, so you could pull it
over and then twist it so thatit can be facing you rather than
.
Okay, it's definitely more ofan art than a science getting
these things right.
There we go.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
I think that's fine, isn't?
Speaker 1 (02:26):
it yeah that's good.
I can definitely hear you.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
So your lady's back.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yay.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
It's just been like three months, so cool.
Yeah, no, it was really nice tohave her back.
It's one of those strangethings where it's like faster
alone but further together.
Like I noticed that I managedto get a lot more done, but I
don't know, it just wasn't asfun or nice Not having that
other being that you share timeand space with was.
(02:57):
Yeah, it was noticed.
The impacts were noticeable.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Definitely.
I think, it goes throughoutlife, in every aspect, work,
play, two heads are better thanone.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Oh, absolutely, it's kind of like that's a really
good, I guess, metaphor that wekind of tap into here.
It's like harnessing thecollective intelligence of a
network of bright minds and warmhearts.
It's like that's really wherethe money's at.
As a social species, noindividual person will have the
whole map of the territory.
(03:31):
It's kind of likecollaboratively and collectively
we can figure things out muchbetter than individually.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Definitely, I think I'm going to be around myself
with experts who are?
Way smarter than me, and thenyou get the benefit of learning
too, and I think for curiousminds that's a massive factor.
I agree.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
I mean that's like with I don't know if you've met
Adrian, yet so we've got a newimpact member, adrian, who so
he's doing some work with one ofmy favourite sort of thinkers,
daniel Schmuck de Murgere, andso he's interested in.
He did climate science and he'sinterested in global
catastrophic risk and how we cantry and mitigate things that
might be caused due to achanging climate, that might be
(04:15):
human caused or not.
And how do we kind of addressthese sort of things?
And just having someone whocomes from like a applied
mathematics background in thespace who's interested in the
same sort of stuff that we are,like complex adaptive systems,
and how do we try and like, Iguess, phase shift our operating
system away from the lineartake-make ways to kind of into a
(04:36):
circular, biobased and maybeeven regenerative way of being
and doing, having people aroundwho so he's totally in the
mathematical and the abstract,but in a really beautiful way
which it can speak to like whatwe're interested in from a
mathematical point of view, andyou're like, oh wow, that's.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
That makes sense.
Yeah, that's rational.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
You can't argue with that Exactly and it's just
really fun and interestinghaving all of those different
mixes of people coming throughthe space.
So, yeah, that's been prettycool.
Anyway, this is.
That's very cool.
This is meant to be about you.
Yeah, shut up, sam, don't throwit onto me.
So yeah, look.
So I guess the premise behindwanting to sit down and have a
(05:15):
chat we've been wanting to havethis chat for a while, but I
just thought it would be areally good opportunity to, as
we were also in the process ofworking towards creating a
biomaterial report and hopefullylike a biobased and circular
materials innovation hub here inthe space.
Remind me, I actually have tohave a chat with you about.
(05:35):
I had a chat with Courtney fromABCH.
Oh, yeah, yeah, she was just inbefore about one of her business
ideas.
Right, I said I might connectyou guys for a bit of a chat
because she was super curiousjust to hear about your journey
on the entrepreneurial journey.
Because she's just about tolook at potentially getting some
funding for one of her newideas like circular solutions.
So like circular materials.
(05:56):
So essentially, instead ofletting dead stock just go to
waste, you can just have amarketplace and people will buy
that.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Well, she's doing that now.
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
So I was just chatting with her about that and
she's like oh, I'd love to havea chat with Tina about that
journey because, yeah, it's likeyou're swimming in like rivers
that are both tributaries to thesame, like river system.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Yes, definitely I'd love to have Tina talk to her.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Great.
Again another sidetrack thing,but I guess the point of this
conversation was we think you'redoing awesome things and we'd
love for more people to hearabout it, and it's a really
exciting journey.
So, yeah, it'd be reallyinteresting to start somewhere
near the beginning.
So what is it that inspired youto develop a bi-verse leather
(06:44):
alternative company?
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Yes, very Interesting journey and sort of semi-linear
.
I was in creative advertisingfor many, many, many years and I
started my own creativeconsultancy, but always with
product development in the backof my mind and I read, I think,
(07:06):
in industry news in about 2019about cactus leather which was
being developed out of Mexico,and got really excited about it
and that led me down this rabbithole of sort of investigating
the animal leather space and Ihad, I mean, you don't think.
Well, I didn't used to think,when I put on a pair of shoes in
the morning, the background tothat pair of shoes, I think you
sort of just take things forgranted, or when you're in your
(07:28):
car, you don't sort of thinkabout the little.
you think, oh, the leather seatsfeel nice, but you don't think
too much about where they camefrom.
And I was just completelyhorrified and blown away by how
destructive that industry wasand I just went.
I've got to do something aboutthis, and so I started a handbag
label as you do.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
So that was the first .
That was your first reactionwas when you found out about so,
was that like a, like a peanuttext or something of the likes,
similar to that?
Yeah, and you're like, wow, howis this not being used already?
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
And so that was what spurred you on to start LOM.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Yeah, and at the time there was only maybe one other
person I think that I had foundin Australia who was using
alternative leather textiles andI thought, okay, well, this is,
I love this, and I startedordering samples of all these
different materials.
And then I went down this,started talking to a designer
(08:24):
who was ex-MIMCO and she helpedme come up with the designs for
the bags.
And then, before I knew it, Iwas producing and selling bags.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
That explains why they're so nice.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
But I guess part of that journey as well was then
doing deeper research into thosematerials and what they were
actually made from, and Idiscovered quite soon after I'd
launched the brand that theyaren't probably as good as what
we think they are and that thisnew bi-based leather industry is
in a transition phase wherethere aren't that many that are
(08:55):
being made that are completelyplastic-free.
And I kept thinking oh,pineapple and cactus.
In Australia we've got anabundance of these materials.
Why is nobody doing anythingabout this here?
And I decided that I'd take itupon myself to then create the
material, given how agrichAustralia is and how many
(09:17):
amazing research institutes andsmart people we have on our
continent.
I thought it has to be possibleand started sort of developing a
hypothesis with some otherpeople, and here we are now in.
Collabs developing our material.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Yeah, it's very exciting.
We were so, so happy.
I guess when we first reachedout, thanks to I think it was
Fiona- Kelby, yeah, finn yeahfrom Kelby, yeah, she's awesome.
Yeah, thanks, finn.
Shout out to supporting us.
Much appreciated.
Yeah, so we'd been sofascinated in this space and we
couldn't figure out why thereweren't anyone in Australia
(09:56):
working on this, especiallygiven the fact that we have some
pretty like well-renowneddesigners and like some quite
large organisations in thisspace.
It was interesting that thereweren't.
Yeah, there was no responsehere in Australia and it was
great to see yourself andthere's a few other people
swimming around in the space.
But it's still very early onand like I'm curious to know,
(10:20):
like why do you think thereisn't much action in this space
in Australia?
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Well, the big one is because there's not that much on
ensure manufacturing.
So all products are made well,not all.
There is a little bit, andfurniture is a big one for here.
So there's a lot of largefurniture companies that are
manufacturing onshore, but interms of smaller accessories and
shoes and apparel, most of ithappens over in China or India.
(10:45):
So I think that's probably oneof the reasons.
Is that I think people think,well, if we're manufacturing
textiles in Australia, they'restill probably going to have to
be exported offshore to thenmanufacture the final product.
So I think that's probably oneof the big reasons.
But what we've found in talkingto many of the Australian
(11:06):
brands is that because,regardless of the fact that they
might be manufacturing in Indiaor Bangladesh or China, they're
still importing a lot of theirmaterials from other parts of
Australia oh sorry, notAustralia other parts of the
world.
So you know, they might gettheir leather alternative from
Mexico, or they might get their.
They might be manufacturing inChina, but they might source
(11:26):
their cotton from India.
So it's sort of I mean it's abit messed up, but it wasn't
going to be a barrier for usthat we were manufacturing in
Australia and they would have toimport the material into the
end into their productmanufacturing location.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
So yeah, it is interesting to think whether or
not this six-continent supplychain is inevitably sustainable
long-term Like, given the Iguess the shocks that we've been
having in the past couple ofyears with things like COVID or
the Russia-Ukraine war, eventhings like the I think the Suez
(12:05):
Canal might be like I feel likethe water is lowering and so
there's, like all of thesethings, where there's you know,
there's potential kinks in thesupply chains across the globe.
That kind of is showing us thatthis globalization thing, yes,
it's a great idea, but having acomplete reliance on other
places to be able to producethings and that no one can
(12:28):
produce anything themselves isactually maybe not the best.
If you think of it from like anecological design thinking
perspective, it makes sense tobe able to do what you can
locally and have redundancybuilt in and like I mean that
kind of plays into the sovereignmanufacturing capability and
everything.
But even from like a non-sortof nationalist perspective,
(12:51):
we're looking at it as a like oh, we've got to just do and buy
within Australia.
It also just makes sense fromlike a carbon footprint and
sustainability to be able tomanufacture locally using what's
at hand rather than somethingexotic from overseas.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Yeah, yeah and that's , and we've thought a lot about
the way that we're going toproduce and one of the things
that we're doing is we're makingsure that all of the products
or all the inputs that go intoour material are available
abundantly anywhere in the world.
So if we have a modularproduction line, we ought to
(13:28):
pick that up and put it in wherethe sort of the global
manufacturing hubs are.
So in.
India or China, and we'll stillbe able to source locally, our
ingredients locally.
So that's been a huge part ofthe way that we've been
designing our inputs into ourmaterial.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Yeah, that's really clever.
That's not something that Ihave actually even had a
conversation with you about.
So you are trying to thinkabout, like what is a context,
independent kind of stream ofinputs to be able to make this
material so that it can be donelocally in some of these regions
where a lot of manufacturing isbeing done.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Yeah, and I mean.
The multiple benefits of thatare obviously you're not
sourcing things from all overthe world the whole time, but
you're also supporting the localcommunities where things are
being manufactured.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
It's kind of like a win-win, I imagine as well.
There would potentially bequite a lot of agricultural
waste that might not be beingused fully in these sort of
spaces and places as well.
So it kind of can be a nice wayto maximise the utilisation of
resources in like and I guessyou could say like a productive
form.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Yeah, and making sure as well that we're not relying
on one single supply chain, thatwe've got interchangeable
inputs that we can use as well,so that we're never going to
have, you know, if there is aflood in one part of the world
that has a devastating effect onthat input, that we'll be able
to substitute that in forsomething else.
There's a lot of thinking thatgoes into it.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, like a proper, you aretaking like a resilience-based
perspective to thinking how, howcan we be adaptive in like a
quite a complex and uncertainenvironment?
Speaker 2 (15:06):
which we're currently in Absolutely yeah, in fact it
will be beyond just having twoor three different sort of
options from a supplierperspective.
We'll have, you know,potentially 10, up to 10 that
are going to form differentformulas that will work, that
will be interchangeable.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Right.
So kind of looking at making alike a material palette of the
future and having differentpotential options based on what
it might be used for ultimately.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
I think the end result will be very stable in
terms of the quality anddurability and aesthetic and all
of that kind of thing.
But it's more about making surethat we're covered from a supply
chain perspective and thatwe're not reliant on one, one
supply, because if that supplyis cut, then obviously the whole
(15:57):
thing falls apart.
So it's just making sure thatwe've got multiple, multiple
suppliers and that the endresult is going to be the same.
Yeah, and that's designed downto, you know, a molecular level,
the chemistry behind what we'redoing.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Super exciting.
So, on that note, like who'sbeen working on this product in
the last little bit?
What's been happening in thelab, like we've been watching it
slowly develop and grow andevolve, and I feel like where
you're at now is really exciting.
Yeah, what's it been like forfive months?
(16:32):
How long?
Speaker 2 (16:32):
have you been in the lab now?
Well, we started, I think, inFeb this year, so I don't know
how many months of that?
Speaker 1 (16:40):
What month were we over in?
Speaker 2 (16:41):
We're in October, September.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Yeah, so a little while, but the research has been
happening for a number of years.
So, and I think you know onething that probably has meant
that we've been able toaccelerate as fast as we have is
that we did a really deep, deep, deep dive into the, into what
was going on in the space, andwe analyzed every material and
(17:05):
sort of discarded the ones thatwere doing it the wrong way by,
you know, still incorporatingplastics, and went okay, if we
want to eliminate plastics, whatare the, what are the
hypotheses that can allow us todo that?
We did a lot of research anddevelopment on the actual
hypotheses before we set foot inthe lab and we had a fairly
(17:25):
structured design mapped outbefore we came in and started,
and so when we did, we sort ofhad the backbone of the type of
testing that we wanted to, thatwe wanted to kick off with.
And, yeah, I suppose the mostexciting recent development is
that Twan has joined the teamwho's?
now a lead scientist and he's amaterial material scientist and
(17:49):
a polymer specialist, and he'sjust a.
He's a guru.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Yeah, I remember sitting in on part of that
conversation where we sort ofpulled together a presentation.
I was like, oh wow, this is.
I did not expect this.
Like I think it's so excitingwhen you see people so
passionate about what they'redoing and and I think as well,
like, given his, like, hispedigree and his background and
what he was doing, that's aperfect fit for the team.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Yeah, worse.
Yeah, could not be more excitedand he's just such a lovely
human as well.
But he's, he has in hisprevious roles.
He he's just come from aVietnamese startup where they
were doing 3D, 3d printing todesign all kinds of prototypes.
(18:34):
I mean he could potentiallydesign this pen, or you know,
any any number of differentproducts.
But at that startup he also hadfirst hand experience at going
into PU and PVC syntheticleather producers and seeing
firsthand the the destructivenature of the production of
(18:56):
those materials on the health ofthe people who are working in
the factories and part of whathe did was help design systems
that would actually make theirlives safer.
Because it was, yeah, it wasshocking, and I think that
experience was when he saw thejob application come up for this
.
He knew that his expertisewould come into play.
But he was also reallypassionate about creating much
(19:16):
more sustainable materials fromboth an ethical perspective but
also an environmentalperspective.
So, yeah, we're really lucky tohave him on board.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Yeah, it's, it's so fascinating seeing how pretty
much every startup that's comethrough I guess the CoLab's
ecosystem is kind ofsimultaneously trying to address
the social and theenvironmental at the same time
through their sort ofimpact-oriented innovations.
So yeah, it's, it's fascinatingto see that like all the all
(19:48):
the innovation that's comingthrough now really is trying to
address those and trying not toacknowledging the interwoven,
interconnectedness of all ofthese problems that you can't
just like isolate one out or theother out.
And acknowledging that fromlike a wide boundary thinking
perspective is that everythingis interconnected and
interrelated.
And it's interesting hearingyou speak speaking to this
(20:10):
without I don't think we've everformally spoken about like
complexity or systems thinkingor anything like that.
But it's fascinating to seethat these are things that
you're integrating sort ofintuitively in your organization
.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
And one thing I think that alot of people love about what
we're doing from an Australianperspective is just the fact
that we're using agriculturalbiomass and that then in turn,
supports, you know, rural areasof Australia and yeah, and then
obviously having a supply chainthat's completely transparent.
But also in Australia,obviously, our standards of
(20:44):
working are really high, so weknow that we're going to have
fair working environments andthat will set the precedent for
future production lines that wemight have around the world.
So, yeah, look, we're reallyexcited to be having to be
creating an Australian madeproduct and setting, hopefully,
a global benchmark in terms ofthe material that we're
producing, and it'll be secularand it will be beautiful.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Yeah, I think it's really interesting seeing as
well all of these circularinnovations that are popping up.
I can't help but feel likethere are a lot of challenges
associated with trying to dothings circular.
Biobased and is your product?
Is it also, is it homecompostable or is it
commercially compostable?
(21:28):
Like what are the?
Because there's so many wordsthat are thrown around and I
guess what I'm saying is likeit's really interesting to for I
guess people who might not 100%know what the words mean, maybe
you could provide somedefinitions by what you mean by
a biobased leather alternative.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Yeah, so biobased would basically mean that
there's, there's, it's, it's allcomes from a bio, a space of
bio.
So there's nothing synthetic init, there's nothing toxic in it
, there's nothing plastic in itit's, it's, it's plant-based,
basically everything everysingle input comes from a plant.
(22:06):
Yeah, biodegradable like it's,that's just it's too hard to it
changes from continent tocontinent.
There's there's, for example, Ithink, to be by a biodegradable
in Australia, it has to andhome compostable.
It needs to happen within 90days.
30 to 90 days, I think it's acertain amount like it's.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
it doesn't necessarily have to be the whole
thing it's so it's all over theplace and I can understand why
people don't necessarily knowwhat the heck's going on.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
But I think, kind of if I was to pick up on what I'm
feeling you're saying the mainthings are is that you're just
trying to make sure that it's,you know, using green chemistry
principles as much as possibleso that's non-toxic, not harmful
, it's made from agriculturalwaste, so it's circular and
biobased and sustainable in thesense in which it is using
(22:59):
things that are again it's thatcircular side of it and then
also not using toxic productswhen you're factoring that in,
and then also sustainable from aresilience perspective, like
you're trying to make sure that,no matter what happens, you've
got the right inputs about a mixtogether and make it happen.
Yeah, even if we do have maybefloods, fires, droughts, all
this sort of thing thatunfortunately, will be happening
(23:22):
more as time goes on.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Yeah, but we are, we are.
So we're designing for end oflife in two ways.
So, if, if products do end upin landfill, as you said,
there's no, there's nothingtoxic in them at all.
So when they do eventuallybreak down, it might take
slightly longer than if you wereto put it in your home compost,
like something that wasactually home compostable.
It's obviously going to take alot longer to buy a degrade than
(23:47):
that, but nothing.
There'll be nothing left of itand it won't affect the earth in
any way.
So, that's, that's one.
But we're also designing it sothat it can be recycled back
into our system.
So, for example, if we're, whenwe're rolling out our material
in rolls, if there is scrapthat's cut off to the side, we
(24:10):
can then recycle that back intoour systems.
Eventually, we'll have you know.
Obviously, in the early daysit's going to be really
difficult to do.
We'll be focused 100% ongetting our premium line out.
But when people do returnproducts to us, we'll be able to
recycle them back into oursystem, minus the hardware and
anything else that might beattached to it.
(24:31):
But yeah, so we're designingfor recyclability and for
biodegradability not within acertain timeframe, but if it
does end up in landfill, it willdegrade without leaving a trace
.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Assuming it doesn't have the metal clips and
everything still on Hardware wehave too much about.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, yeah, that'll have to be removed, but yes, so
nothing toxic going in andnothing toxic therefore being
left behind.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah, no, it's really exciting.
Like where do you think, likewhere do you see this going in
the next couple of years?
Or where do you sort of seeyourself in and say another five
years?
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Well, the next couple of years will be we'll start
our manufacturing, so we're, bythe end of next year, we'll
definitely have a commerciallyviable product, will be sampling
with with, hopefully, globalbrands.
We've got great demand andappetite and then, in five years
time, we'll be operating atscale.
Absolutely, we'll have ourfirst major production line and
(25:32):
then the way that our systemsare set up is that we'll have,
as I mentioned before, modularproduction systems.
So the first line will fund theproduction of the second line
and it's completely demand based, so we'll only scale with
demand.
If demand goes through the roof,we'll have the opportunity to
triple that scale.
But, yeah, it's a.
It's a very much a moduleproduction line, but we're not
(25:55):
sort of limited to justproducing, producing a leather.
Alternative we could.
Our mother company mothercompany name is old materials,
so old leather is the firstthing that we're focusing on,
but it might be old plastics,old silks, old cotton.
There's a lot of different waysthat we can, that we can go and
just be constantly developingand designing new and exciting
(26:18):
circular biomaterials.
So that's the grand plan.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Yeah, and so off that .
How has the product beingreceived thus far by potential
consumers or purchases, or yeahbrands yeah, brands, that's the
word I was looking for.
I'm like, oh gosh, I haven'thad enough coffee Very very,
very great reception.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
I think, as you said before we've we're at a really
exciting point in the journey interms of having something that
we can actually now take in intothese meetings and say, hey,
look and feel and touch ouramazing production.
That generates a lot ofexcitement, whereas before we
didn't have anything that wecould.
We knew where we were going,but we didn't have anything that
we could show.
So it's a it's is superexciting.
(27:03):
We're getting a lot of momentumand traction from both
investors and and potentialcustomers, because they can
actually see it and they cantouch it and they can feel it
and they can look at it and go,oh, my gosh, I can't I actually
can't believe that this is notanimal leather.
This entire, this piece ofmaterial is made entirely from
plants.
So, yeah, it's exciting andyou've I mean you've seen the
(27:24):
leather grain and and then thecrocodile, crocodile pattern,
it's, it's pretty amazing.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
And I think you're right there's, there is
something to having an artifact,having something that's
tangible, physical, that you cansee, touch, smell.
Even smell is important withthis sort of stuff.
Feel like that is so importantI mean we to use.
I guess what we're doing is anexample like we.
We definitely had that issue tobegin with.
People like I get that you'rewanting to build a lab, but
(27:54):
where's the lab?
Well, if you give us the money,we'll make you the lab, and I
feel like that is a recurringtheme that you hear.
So, like you know that lastyear one of our other members,
we managed to get across to H&Mfor the Global Changemakers
Award, so it was the one theearly bird prize.
(28:16):
Unfortunately, that projecthasn't continued on since then.
Would still love to make itcontinue on, but that was one of
the main things that peoplewere mentioning over there was a
big.
I guess you could say like adisconnect on wants and needs
from the provider and the supplyand the buyer, and just saying
(28:39):
that a lot of the issues withthese sort of projects is that
it might take, as you said, fiveyears to get to scale.
People love it, but then theygo okay, cool, well, I want like
5000 tons of this tomorrow andno this is.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
This is what this is.
We were just talking about thisthis morning actually because,
now that people can touch it andsee it and they get really
excited about it because theyknow that we're doing everything
the right way.
And there aren't that manymaterials on the market that are
doing it the right way.
Everyone sort of just the netthe very within 10 seconds.
So when can I get a one by onemeter piece?
(29:15):
And we're obviously developingit lab scale at the moment, so
our pieces are more like, Idon't know, 15 centimeters by 15
centimeters and what.
What people don't realize is toget it up to that next size.
There's a whole lot of thinkingthat goes behind that.
It's not just as simple as okay, multiply by 100.
(29:35):
It's yeah it, you know somewhatnonlinear.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
It's like a phase shift in how you have to
structure and do what you'redoing.
It's not you can't just likedouble the.
It's like you don't make a cakeby just doubling or quadrupling
or 10 x in the ingredients likeat scale.
These things change in anonlinear way yeah exactly.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Well, you need the starters, you need all kinds of
bigger machinery, and then froma consistency perspective at
scale, it's much morechallenging.
And then you know if you'reusing, say, a compression
molding system.
To do that at a four size youmight only need a ton of weight,
but to do that at one by onemeter you're going to need 24
(30:17):
tons of weight.
I'm just throwing these figuresaround that they're not legit,
by the way, but there's.
there's so much more to gettingfrom a lab's lab sort of size
piece up to a decent sizesampling piece, but that's our
focus for the next six months.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
So, yeah, I was going to say, even though that is a
big, let's say, gap totransition from and to from the
conversations we've had, thatsort of, as you said, that's
kind of what you're working onright now, and is that something
Twine was actually activelyworking on in the lab in terms
of, like, pulling together apitch of like oh, here's what we
need, here's how we get thereand here's what we can offer.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Yeah, so Twine and I talk a lot about timelines where
it's constantly sort of mappingout timelines, and and there is
two key things that we need tofocus on in parallel, and one is
designing the chemicalformulations so that they're as
sustainable as possible, butalso so that they're fit for the
actual production of them.
(31:15):
So, depending on the productionsystems that you put in place,
the chemical formulation will bedifferent.
So it's quite a complex thingthat needs to work side by side.
So, yeah, we're sort of willhave multiple meetings
throughout the week to talkabout okay, this is what we're
thinking right now, but thatmight change next week or it
(31:36):
might be slightly different nextweek, depending on the results
of the chemical formulationsthat are happening in the lab.
So, but we are definitelydesigning the formula for a
certain style of production.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Okay, so taking on like an iterative design
approach, where you're justconstantly it's like
evolutionary you know you'reconstantly tweaking and
adjusting and striving towardsgetting at the best you can to
that next level, withoutactually having the next level
of infrastructure to supportthat.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So what we do pre-pilot will beprobably completely different
to what we do in pilot.
The formulation won't changebecause we will have designed it
in such a way that it'll workfor both of those phases.
Yeah, it's complex.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
It's always complex.
It's just part of.
I mean, you're moving so fast,right, like to see how quick
it's grown, and I know for you,like behind the scenes, it has
been a challenging sort ofperiod to navigate, but like you
wouldn't know from the outside,like you've done such a good
job of holding it all togetherand pulling it together and
(32:39):
growing the team, yeah, it'sreally exciting seeing you know
where you've come from and whereyou're at now, and now that
you're kind of looking for someto raise additional funds to try
and get it to that next scale.
So would you like to touch onthat a little bit?
Oh, the raise process.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, how's thatbeen.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Yeah, it's been really good, I think because I
have been on this journey forquite a number of years now.
I've got people in my directnetwork, so we've been sort of
following along with interestand have seen how hard we've
been working at it and arereally interested in supporting
that.
So that's been amazing.
And then I would just say thatthe startup community in
(33:19):
Melbourne is an incrediblecommunity and I also applied for
a number of acceleratorprograms and through those
accelerator programs I've hadmentors who are also now
potentially going to come on asangels.
So we're literally about toopen this first raise within the
next week.
We've got, we've had soexciting.
(33:41):
So exciting.
We've had, I think, about fouror five investor meetings and,
yeah, the response has just beenoverwhelmingly supportive and,
yeah, I just feel the networkand that's probably one thing
that I would say to anyone whois thinking about starting
something is just make sure thatyou have network is everything.
Making sure that you've gotreally strategic players in
(34:02):
place for every part of thejourney that you're going to be
going on, and making sure thatthe investors that you're
talking to are going to be ableto add value, just beyond giving
you money, because you wantpeople on your team, or an
extension of your team, who,yeah sure they're helping you
with funds but, more importantly, they can help you with advice
for each of those stages thatyou're going to go through,
(34:23):
because every stage iscompletely different and, yeah,
and overwhelming.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Yeah, that reminds me of I think it's just like basic
principles of biomimicry,Insofar as you just you never
want to have anything that'sonly fit for one purpose.
You kind of likemultifunctionality is essential,
and it kind of seems like thatis a something that even applies
to these sorts of relationshipsthat you're talking about from
(34:50):
a finance sort of side of things.
It's like yeah, it's great ifsomeone can give you the money,
but wanting to make sure thatthere's other ways in which they
can maybe qualitativelycontribute.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
That isn't necessarily just money.
Absolutely, and I'm yeah, Iguess that's one thing that I
think we've done really well isset up those people so that when
I've got a manufacturingquestion I can just go oh, you
know, so-and-so, I've got this.
What do we do about?
you know, I had a conversationwith an amazing mentor on Friday
(35:20):
about manufacturing and he wasjust giving me the insights of
how to lay out the manufacturingprocess in a way that is really
appealing for investors, sothat you can sort of walk them
through it, rather, and givethem a really clear visual of
how it's all going to work,rather than just sort of being a
2D on paper or just adescription.
Making sure that they've got avisual way of taking it away so
(35:45):
that they can go with them, sothat they'll think about it and
go oh, wow, yeah, cool.
So that piece of machinery iswhere my funds are going to go,
but sort of doing that for themachinery but then also doing it
for the chemistry, and doing itfirst so that people can
actually get excited, just likethey do when they pick up your
material.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
So is that something that you've been doing with,
because I know that you send outregular updates to, I guess,
your network and is that sort ofa place where you do keep that?
So it's kind of like an ongoingnarrative of what you are and
what you're doing, and you'resaying that you've found that is
an incredibly valuable way ofbuilding that rapport with
people who have invested and whomight potentially look at
(36:22):
investing.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Yeah, definitely.
That's been a great way.
And as soon as we startedshowing visuals of what we were
doing, everybody got reallyexcited, because before that it
was just words on paper andpeople going oh it sounds like a
great idea, but what are theyreally doing?
And now they can see photos ofour team in the lab and they can
see the outputs and they cansee the wallets that we're
making and all of a sudden it'sgetting really real.
(36:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Yeah, is there any milestones that have sort of
happened recently that you'resuper proud of?
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Yes, I think it was.
Well, I think, andrew, youmight have over been there too,
sam, but when we pulled thepiece of material out of, you
know, the first embossed pieceof material out of the oven, and
we all just went, oh my God, itlooks like leather, like it's.
We've actually We've done it.
This is amazing.
That was, you know, the mostexciting by far.
(37:16):
And then I think having Twan onboard is really exciting.
But I've got to say, because weare moving at pace and because
every week really is sodifferent I think there's
incredible rewards on a weeklybasis that, yeah, you know,
whether it's a new conversationyou've had with someone
(37:36):
completely new, or whether it'sa new development in the lab,
you know, I was down thismorning and Twan said hey, you
know, come and check this out,look what happened overnight.
And it's a new little bit ofprogress that has happened
overnight just by switching outone of the inputs, and it's, you
know, potentially stepped usforward another couple of weeks
overnight.
So yeah, I think we're creating, we're inventing something new
(38:02):
and every week is completelydifferent.
And you know, I was in with oneof the major fashion groups
last week and there came tolocking a partnership.
So then that just spurred youon and you go, wow, okay, every
day is different, every week isdifferent, so it's just an
exciting time.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
Nice, that was actually going to be one of my
next questions Do you have anyprospective partners lined up?
But I guess it's probably a bittight-lipped.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Yeah, we can't really talk about them.
Most of you know, we've spokento probably over 35 of
Australia's leading brands andwe have qualitative interviews
with all of them, so we workthrough what their requirements
look like and how we canbasically create the best
material for them to use andlearn all about their production
(38:47):
processes, the types of volumesthat they would be needing us
to produce to make it ameaningful partnership, and so
we've had lots of those amazingconversations and we're starting
to now look at internationalpartners as well.
So, yeah, lots of learning andlots of exciting opportunities.
On the horizon.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
Ah, so cool.
This is a I wouldn't call it acurveball, but like it's
probably a hashtag real talkmoment.
Is there anything that youthink you would have done
differently on your journey, orare you kind of happy with the
way it's all panned out?
Speaker 2 (39:24):
I'm happy with the way everything is panned out,
but it hasn't been easy.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
It's like whatever it is when you're trying to do
zero to one.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
When you're trying to set a new global standard and
invent something new?
I would.
I am a very impulsive personand I often say and this is
something that I've learnt aboutmyself over the last year I
probably always knew that it wasthere, but I've learnt it
(39:55):
firsthand.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
It's hard when your shadow side is a positive trait,
it's much harder to notice theshadow sides of it.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
I would say so what I've realised that I do is I say
yes, yes, yes, yes.
People please, people pleaseyes yes, yes, yes, yes, until
I'm in this massive kind of yeshole, and then I have to kind of
sounds like the opposite ofabundance.
Find my way out of it.
And the problems with that.
(40:25):
Well, the major problem withthat is that I think once you're
in that yes hole, sometimes youhave to hurt feelings and, you
know, mend things to get out ofit.
So you think at the time thatsaying yes is helping the person
or making everybody happy, butin actual fact it ends up maybe
having a really negative effect.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
It can be worse in the long term.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
So I think I was saying this to you the other day
, sam, but my new mantra isleave it with me, leave it with
me, we'll think about it andthen actually do the proper due
diligence to you know, to makesure that if, for example, it's
going to be a workingpartnership, or you're adding
someone new to the team, or thatyou actually that it is the
(41:08):
right fit and it has to be theright fit for both people and
you're not just saying yesbecause you want to make them
feel good at the time, like youknow, you need to really do the
due diligence and work throughand take it really seriously,
because this is you know a 10,15-plus year journey that you're
on and you have to trade itlike a marriage and make sure
that, yeah, it's going to workfor everybody, that everybody's
(41:32):
going to be happy, and, ofcourse, during that long period
things are going to change andthere's going to be ups and
downs, but you don't want it tobackfire within the first, you
know, a couple of months,because it's an expensive
process to go through and it'syou know it's a hard one to fill
.
I suppose the space that someoneexiting leaves but, also.
(41:56):
Yeah, I don't know, it's justyou just do the due diligence
before you enter into somethingthat's Serious, I suppose.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
Yeah, and it's so much easier said than done,
depending on where you're at andwhat's going on in the
organization, especially as astartup, and you might have your
attention pulled in multipledifferent directions.
It's like finding a way toalign, like the intellect, the
ego and the heart is not an easyTrinity to find, like a common
(42:28):
center of gravity or balancebetween and it's.
I think it's an ongoing andcontinual process for everyone.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
So definitely, especially when you're someone
like me.
You think everybody's amazing.
Oh, my god, you're amazingyourself.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
All my problem the golden retriever approach to
startups.
It definitely works, though Imust say.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
We're doing okay.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Yeah, so on that note , as well as any other advice
that you might provide to otherpeople like, probably honestly
one of the most common thingsthat we've had startups and
students coming through, as theyare, especially from RMIT, is a
very interested in you know,next-gen materials, whether
that's mycelium or.
We've got a group, agus group,who are looking at using bull
(43:15):
rush to make a non-woven fiber.
What advice would you give tothese people, whether it's
students or Just anyone ingeneral, who are trying to get
into this space?
Is there anything that makesthis different to say I don't
know a normal startup, whateverthat means?
Speaker 2 (43:32):
I think in, I think just in general, starting any
kind of business, yeah, you haveto find I know this sounds
really cliche and cheesy, but ithas to be purpose driven.
There has to be somethingdeeper than just going oh, I
want to, I want to create thisnew thing and make lots of money
.
And you know it has to have adeeper purpose.
(43:53):
It has to find.
You have to be driven bysomething that's not just
surface, because you are gonnahave some really, really, really
shit days when you feel likehow am I gonna be able to keep
going, how can I get out of bedand keep going and keep doing
this?
Like I've lost all motivationand if you don't have that
deeper sense of purpose attachedto whatever you're trying to
(44:16):
achieve, you probably won't getout of bed, you probably won't
continue it.
But in all seriousness, like youknow what I mean, oh, I do have
to be bigger than just I wantto be rich and famous and start
this thing and it's gonna bereally cool, like it really has
to.
It really has to.
You have to feel it in yourbones.
Basically, and I think for me,climate is that you know, and
(44:39):
I've grown up being a veryoutdoorsy person and I've
traveled the world and hiked tosome pretty remote places in the
Andes and the Rockies and youknow, the Amazon jungle, and it
is, I Guess it's sort of formswho I am and it's a really big
part of who I am, and I thinkprotecting that environment is
(45:02):
massively important to me andthat's the thing that kind of
keeps me going.
And you know, something, shitwill happen and I'll go oh my
god, this is so hard.
Like, how am I gonna get?
I can't do this by myself,there's too much pressure, it's
just crazy.
And then you just take a stepback and you you hook back into
that purpose and it's what keepsyou going.
(45:23):
So, and I think, also, people,a Really I'm a real people
person and I'm I love workingwith smart people who are, who
are passionate about things, andI think that's something that
you and Andrew have created hereat collabs.
That makes such an incredibleenvironment to work in is that
it's a.
It's a it's a little ecosystemof really smart, passionate
(45:46):
people who are all sort of, Isuppose, focused on the same end
goal, and being a part of thatis a really special thing.
And, yeah, I'm trying and Iwould talking about that just a
couple of days ago to Loveworking here.
It's just, you know, it's areally great place to be, so.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Oh, thank you.
Yeah, it's um, it's definitelyintentional.
I think I love Brian.
He knows way of describing Idon't have.
You've heard of the termseniors.
No it's a genius of place.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
Oh right.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
So, rather than genius being locked within an
individual which, yes, obviouslyit can like, yeah, einstein,
oppenheimer, I don't know whyI'm only going with physicists-
one twine.
Yeah, yeah, right Like there isthese lone wolf geniuses that
can kind of like do everythingand and whatnot, but the
collective intelligence thatcomes with a Community that has
(46:36):
a certain culture, I thinkthere's.
There's something really strongin that.
I know, like teach Nahan waslike one of his Famous quotes
was like the next Buddha will bethe song and and and the song
of being the community thatsurrounds the spiritual
teachings.
I think it's kind of take thatapproach for innovation.
It's like the, it'scollectively we need to be
cultivating an ecosystem ofResponses to our times.
(47:00):
I wouldn't say solutions,because a lot of the time the
solutions end up being theproblems of the future.
But that's for another time.
But yeah, it's like we need tobe bringing together people to
come up with these ideas andinnovations and and through
having other Bright minds andwarm hearts around, that is
actually the really generativelike that's, that's where the
money happens.
It's it's the engineers,serendipity or the things that
(47:23):
happen just because and youhadn't like it wasn't yeah, I
thought you make that happen.
You can only Create theconditions to allow that to
emerge.
Yeah, and it's been prettycrazy Having that as the
intention and then it actuallyhappens.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
Yeah, we've done a great job at that.
I mean the number of times thatsomeone's walked past, and you
know, we've.
We've been trying to solve aproblem and They've said, oh,
have you thought about this?
And you go oh, I thought aboutthat, but we will now.
Because, yeah, I think I think,as you say, having a whole
bunch of people who are focusedon the same end goal, who can
sort of help each other alongthe way.
Speaker 1 (48:00):
Hmm, yeah, engineering, serendipity is what
we call it, but yeah, it'sexactly that.
It's like we're all.
We're all trying to strivetowards Supporting and raising
social foundations or bringingus within planetary boundaries
so that we can, you know, letlife continue on this planet.
And I think that having that asthe thing that, and knowing
that, oh cool, magic Valley isdoing that through cultivated
(48:23):
meat, you know, we all you'vegot Tina, we're doing that
through materials, and thenwe've got other people who are
doing it through improvingfertility for females.
Like there's all of thesedifferent ways in which people
are showing up and contributingto impact-oriented innovation
and, yeah, just having a spacewhere other like-minded people
are around, but still diverseand different.
(48:44):
So it's like I know that the,the overlapping of ecosystems is
where you get the mostBiodiversity, and that's why I
was sort of so interested inhaving so many different people
from different disciplinesworking on things.
Hence the transdisciplinary,because that's where cool things
happen, like I know Jacob fromMagic Valley was helping you
with, like he has helped us alot.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
Yeah, Jacob is a legend.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:07):
Yeah, we've done.
We've done laser, we've doneMolding, we've done all kinds of
stuff together.
He's taught me even how to sewyou leather stitching, really
yes.
He has, I have.
I have hand stitched our firstlaser-cut leather Wallet
prototype using Jacob'stechnique nice.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
Is that that little?
The credit card one that I'veseen Stitching?
Yeah, that's beautiful.
Speaker 2 (49:30):
Yeah, it's great, that was Jacob.
Thanks, jacob.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
Oh, what a legend.
He says that he just doesn'tlike humans.
But I don't believe him likehe's such a helpful.
Exactly, I just don't likepeople.
I'm like, yes, you do.
You, you're a closet, niceperson.
Stop trying to pretend that youdon't like humans.
No, it's been, it's been andthat's this is.
This is the thing, this iswhat's so fun about this space
is like, Like I've said to youbefore, as I, like Andrew and I,
(49:57):
we kind of came to therealization that we couldn't
like do everything, or it's likewe're not going to change the
world, but collectively, if youbring enough people together,
it's pretty amazing what canhappen.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
Yeah, I agree yes.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
Is there anything else you wanted to talk about?
Speaker 2 (50:12):
Hmm.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
I don't really mind, I'm kind of.
I'm kind of good, like, if youwant to, if you want to jam out
on anything else, I'm sure wecan throw something in the mix.
But um, yeah, I'm also Happy ifyou want to call, it's up to
you.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
Well, we did just end on saving the world, so that
was a pretty good note to end on.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
Okay, I guess.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
I guess the only other thing is obviously we are
raising so oh yeah cool.
If anyone is interested, pleasefeel free to reach out Tina at
alt leather Dot com.
Great, I should say.
Speaker 1 (50:46):
Oh, good, good, yeah, well, um, we'll throw some
details in the show notes If weend up getting them.
I feel like everyone says that,so I just feel like saying it.
Speaker 2 (50:54):
Yeah, podcast.
Well, we'll put it in the shownotes.
Speaker 1 (50:58):
Um, yeah, it'll be me putting it together, though it
won't be someone else.
Like every other podcastactually has people on the team
doing things.
It's just all me and Andrew, um, but yeah, so we'll pull that
together and we'll get somecontent out.
So Thanks so much for droppingin and giving us some of your
time.
I know that time is scarce foryou, so I appreciate Every
(51:18):
minute of it.
Thanks for having me, noworries, see ya, see ya, yeah.
Thanks so much for listening toanother episode of the strange
attractor.
Um, yeah, if you, which meansthis podcast will continue to
adapt and evolve as we strive tomake more space, both physical
(51:40):
and digital space, available Tosupport the bright minds and
warm hearts that are working onbio led design and innovation.
Anyway, thanks for listening.
Uh, more podcasts will becoming out shortly with the rest
of our members.
Please do feel free to get incontact if you want to say hello
or join our community, and I'llsee you here next time.
(52:04):
The strange tracked out.
Hello and welcome to the Strange Attractor, an
experimental podcast fromColapse, a transdisciplinary
innovation hub and biotechnologyco-working lab based in
Melbourne, australia.
I'm your co-host, sam Wines,and alongside my co-founder,
andrew Gray, we'll delve deepinto the intersection of biology
, technology and society throughthe lens of complexity and
(00:22):
systems thinking.
Join us on a journey ofdiscovery as we explore how
transdisciplinary innovation,informed by life's regenerative
patterns and processes, couldhelp us catalyze the transition
towards a thriving future forpeople and the planet.
Hello and welcome to Episode 4.
(00:45):
This week we sat down with TinaFunder from Ault Leather.
So Ault Leather is a next-genmaterials organisation working
on a biobased home, compostablecircular alternative to leather.
So they've been in the lab forgeez it feels like probably six
months now.
(01:05):
It's been such a pleasurewatching this project go from
ideation to actualisation, fromprototype now through to raising
her first round of funding.
Yeah, I guess it's just supernice for us to be a part of this
journey.
It's the whole reason whyColapse exists to be able to
support impact-orientedinnovation.
(01:26):
And, yeah, tina's paving theway for the emergence of an
Australian biomaterial ecosystem, which is super cool.
Anyway, I'll stop talking nowand let you enjoy the
conversation with Tina Funder.
We don't even have to have aformal way of getting into the
(01:48):
conversation.
We can just start having a chatand sort of see where it goes.
This is intentionally more realand less polished than a lot of
other conversations.
It kind of plays into the livinglab, sort of thing.
(02:09):
So you find you can also twistthis here, so you could pull it
over and then twist it so thatit can be facing you rather than
.
Okay, it's definitely more ofan art than a science getting
these things right.
There we go.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
I think that's fine, isn't?
Speaker 1 (02:26):
it yeah that's good.
I can definitely hear you.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
So your lady's back.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yay.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
It's just been like three months, so cool.
Yeah, no, it was really nice tohave her back.
It's one of those strangethings where it's like faster
alone but further together.
Like I noticed that I managedto get a lot more done, but I
don't know, it just wasn't asfun or nice Not having that
other being that you share timeand space with was.
(02:57):
Yeah, it was noticed.
The impacts were noticeable.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Definitely.
I think, it goes throughoutlife, in every aspect, work,
play, two heads are better thanone.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Oh, absolutely, it's kind of like that's a really
good, I guess, metaphor that wekind of tap into here.
It's like harnessing thecollective intelligence of a
network of bright minds and warmhearts.
It's like that's really wherethe money's at.
As a social species, noindividual person will have the
whole map of the territory.
(03:31):
It's kind of likecollaboratively and collectively
we can figure things out muchbetter than individually.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Definitely, I think I'm going to be around myself
with experts who are?
Way smarter than me, and thenyou get the benefit of learning
too, and I think for curiousminds that's a massive factor.
I agree.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
I mean that's like with I don't know if you've met
Adrian, yet so we've got a newimpact member, adrian, who so
he's doing some work with one ofmy favourite sort of thinkers,
daniel Schmuck de Murgere, andso he's interested in.
He did climate science and he'sinterested in global
catastrophic risk and how we cantry and mitigate things that
might be caused due to achanging climate, that might be
(04:15):
human caused or not.
And how do we kind of addressthese sort of things?
And just having someone whocomes from like a applied
mathematics background in thespace who's interested in the
same sort of stuff that we are,like complex adaptive systems,
and how do we try and like, Iguess, phase shift our operating
system away from the lineartake-make ways to kind of into a
(04:36):
circular, biobased and maybeeven regenerative way of being
and doing, having people aroundwho so he's totally in the
mathematical and the abstract,but in a really beautiful way
which it can speak to like whatwe're interested in from a
mathematical point of view, andyou're like, oh wow, that's.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
That makes sense.
Yeah, that's rational.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
You can't argue with that Exactly and it's just
really fun and interestinghaving all of those different
mixes of people coming throughthe space.
So, yeah, that's been prettycool.
Anyway, this is.
That's very cool.
This is meant to be about you.
Yeah, shut up, sam, don't throwit onto me.
So yeah, look.
So I guess the premise behindwanting to sit down and have a
(05:15):
chat we've been wanting to havethis chat for a while, but I
just thought it would be areally good opportunity to, as
we were also in the process ofworking towards creating a
biomaterial report and hopefullylike a biobased and circular
materials innovation hub here inthe space.
Remind me, I actually have tohave a chat with you about.
(05:35):
I had a chat with Courtney fromABCH.
Oh, yeah, yeah, she was just inbefore about one of her business
ideas.
Right, I said I might connectyou guys for a bit of a chat
because she was super curiousjust to hear about your journey
on the entrepreneurial journey.
Because she's just about tolook at potentially getting some
funding for one of her newideas like circular solutions.
So like circular materials.
(05:56):
So essentially, instead ofletting dead stock just go to
waste, you can just have amarketplace and people will buy
that.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Well, she's doing that now.
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
So I was just chatting with her about that and
she's like oh, I'd love to havea chat with Tina about that
journey because, yeah, it's likeyou're swimming in like rivers
that are both tributaries to thesame, like river system.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Yes, definitely I'd love to have Tina talk to her.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Great.
Again another sidetrack thing,but I guess the point of this
conversation was we think you'redoing awesome things and we'd
love for more people to hearabout it, and it's a really
exciting journey.
So, yeah, it'd be reallyinteresting to start somewhere
near the beginning.
So what is it that inspired youto develop a bi-verse leather
(06:44):
alternative company?
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Yes, very Interesting journey and sort of semi-linear
.
I was in creative advertisingfor many, many, many years and I
started my own creativeconsultancy, but always with
product development in the backof my mind and I read, I think,
(07:06):
in industry news in about 2019about cactus leather which was
being developed out of Mexico,and got really excited about it
and that led me down this rabbithole of sort of investigating
the animal leather space and Ihad, I mean, you don't think.
Well, I didn't used to think,when I put on a pair of shoes in
the morning, the background tothat pair of shoes, I think you
sort of just take things forgranted, or when you're in your
(07:28):
car, you don't sort of thinkabout the little.
you think, oh, the leather seatsfeel nice, but you don't think
too much about where they camefrom.
And I was just completelyhorrified and blown away by how
destructive that industry wasand I just went.
I've got to do something aboutthis, and so I started a handbag
label as you do.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
So that was the first .
That was your first reactionwas when you found out about so,
was that like a, like a peanuttext or something of the likes,
similar to that?
Yeah, and you're like, wow, howis this not being used already?
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
And so that was what spurred you on to start LOM.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Yeah, and at the time there was only maybe one other
person I think that I had foundin Australia who was using
alternative leather textiles andI thought, okay, well, this is,
I love this, and I startedordering samples of all these
different materials.
And then I went down this,started talking to a designer
(08:24):
who was ex-MIMCO and she helpedme come up with the designs for
the bags.
And then, before I knew it, Iwas producing and selling bags.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
That explains why they're so nice.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
But I guess part of that journey as well was then
doing deeper research into thosematerials and what they were
actually made from, and Idiscovered quite soon after I'd
launched the brand that theyaren't probably as good as what
we think they are and that thisnew bi-based leather industry is
in a transition phase wherethere aren't that many that are
(08:55):
being made that are completelyplastic-free.
And I kept thinking oh,pineapple and cactus.
In Australia we've got anabundance of these materials.
Why is nobody doing anythingabout this here?
And I decided that I'd take itupon myself to then create the
material, given how agrichAustralia is and how many
(09:17):
amazing research institutes andsmart people we have on our
continent.
I thought it has to be possibleand started sort of developing a
hypothesis with some otherpeople, and here we are now in.
Collabs developing our material.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Yeah, it's very exciting.
We were so, so happy.
I guess when we first reachedout, thanks to I think it was
Fiona- Kelby, yeah, finn yeahfrom Kelby, yeah, she's awesome.
Yeah, thanks, finn.
Shout out to supporting us.
Much appreciated.
Yeah, so we'd been sofascinated in this space and we
couldn't figure out why thereweren't anyone in Australia
(09:56):
working on this, especiallygiven the fact that we have some
pretty like well-renowneddesigners and like some quite
large organisations in thisspace.
It was interesting that thereweren't.
Yeah, there was no responsehere in Australia and it was
great to see yourself andthere's a few other people
swimming around in the space.
But it's still very early onand like I'm curious to know,
(10:20):
like why do you think thereisn't much action in this space
in Australia?
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Well, the big one is because there's not that much on
ensure manufacturing.
So all products are made well,not all.
There is a little bit, andfurniture is a big one for here.
So there's a lot of largefurniture companies that are
manufacturing onshore, but interms of smaller accessories and
shoes and apparel, most of ithappens over in China or India.
(10:45):
So I think that's probably oneof the reasons.
Is that I think people think,well, if we're manufacturing
textiles in Australia, they'restill probably going to have to
be exported offshore to thenmanufacture the final product.
So I think that's probably oneof the big reasons.
But what we've found in talkingto many of the Australian
(11:06):
brands is that because,regardless of the fact that they
might be manufacturing in Indiaor Bangladesh or China, they're
still importing a lot of theirmaterials from other parts of
Australia oh sorry, notAustralia other parts of the
world.
So you know, they might gettheir leather alternative from
Mexico, or they might get their.
They might be manufacturing inChina, but they might source
(11:26):
their cotton from India.
So it's sort of I mean it's abit messed up, but it wasn't
going to be a barrier for usthat we were manufacturing in
Australia and they would have toimport the material into the
end into their productmanufacturing location.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
So yeah, it is interesting to think whether or
not this six-continent supplychain is inevitably sustainable
long-term Like, given the Iguess the shocks that we've been
having in the past couple ofyears with things like COVID or
the Russia-Ukraine war, eventhings like the I think the Suez
(12:05):
Canal might be like I feel likethe water is lowering and so
there's, like all of thesethings, where there's you know,
there's potential kinks in thesupply chains across the globe.
That kind of is showing us thatthis globalization thing, yes,
it's a great idea, but having acomplete reliance on other
places to be able to producethings and that no one can
(12:28):
produce anything themselves isactually maybe not the best.
If you think of it from like anecological design thinking
perspective, it makes sense tobe able to do what you can
locally and have redundancybuilt in and like I mean that
kind of plays into the sovereignmanufacturing capability and
everything.
But even from like a non-sortof nationalist perspective,
(12:51):
we're looking at it as a like oh, we've got to just do and buy
within Australia.
It also just makes sense fromlike a carbon footprint and
sustainability to be able tomanufacture locally using what's
at hand rather than somethingexotic from overseas.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Yeah, yeah and that's , and we've thought a lot about
the way that we're going toproduce and one of the things
that we're doing is we're makingsure that all of the products
or all the inputs that go intoour material are available
abundantly anywhere in the world.
So if we have a modularproduction line, we ought to
(13:28):
pick that up and put it in wherethe sort of the global
manufacturing hubs are.
So in.
India or China, and we'll stillbe able to source locally, our
ingredients locally.
So that's been a huge part ofthe way that we've been
designing our inputs into ourmaterial.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Yeah, that's really clever.
That's not something that Ihave actually even had a
conversation with you about.
So you are trying to thinkabout, like what is a context,
independent kind of stream ofinputs to be able to make this
material so that it can be donelocally in some of these regions
where a lot of manufacturing isbeing done.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Yeah, and I mean.
The multiple benefits of thatare obviously you're not
sourcing things from all overthe world the whole time, but
you're also supporting the localcommunities where things are
being manufactured.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
It's kind of like a win-win, I imagine as well.
There would potentially bequite a lot of agricultural
waste that might not be beingused fully in these sort of
spaces and places as well.
So it kind of can be a nice wayto maximise the utilisation of
resources in like and I guessyou could say like a productive
form.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Yeah, and making sure as well that we're not relying
on one single supply chain, thatwe've got interchangeable
inputs that we can use as well,so that we're never going to
have, you know, if there is aflood in one part of the world
that has a devastating effect onthat input, that we'll be able
to substitute that in forsomething else.
There's a lot of thinking thatgoes into it.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, like a proper, you aretaking like a resilience-based
perspective to thinking how, howcan we be adaptive in like a
quite a complex and uncertainenvironment?
Speaker 2 (15:06):
which we're currently in Absolutely yeah, in fact it
will be beyond just having twoor three different sort of
options from a supplierperspective.
We'll have, you know,potentially 10, up to 10 that
are going to form differentformulas that will work, that
will be interchangeable.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Right.
So kind of looking at making alike a material palette of the
future and having differentpotential options based on what
it might be used for ultimately.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
I think the end result will be very stable in
terms of the quality anddurability and aesthetic and all
of that kind of thing.
But it's more about making surethat we're covered from a supply
chain perspective and thatwe're not reliant on one, one
supply, because if that supplyis cut, then obviously the whole
(15:57):
thing falls apart.
So it's just making sure thatwe've got multiple, multiple
suppliers and that the endresult is going to be the same.
Yeah, and that's designed downto, you know, a molecular level,
the chemistry behind what we'redoing.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Super exciting.
So, on that note, like who'sbeen working on this product in
the last little bit?
What's been happening in thelab, like we've been watching it
slowly develop and grow andevolve, and I feel like where
you're at now is really exciting.
Yeah, what's it been like forfive months?
(16:32):
How long?
Speaker 2 (16:32):
have you been in the lab now?
Well, we started, I think, inFeb this year, so I don't know
how many months of that?
Speaker 1 (16:40):
What month were we over in?
Speaker 2 (16:41):
We're in October, September.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Yeah, so a little while, but the research has been
happening for a number of years.
So, and I think you know onething that probably has meant
that we've been able toaccelerate as fast as we have is
that we did a really deep, deep, deep dive into the, into what
was going on in the space, andwe analyzed every material and
(17:05):
sort of discarded the ones thatwere doing it the wrong way by,
you know, still incorporatingplastics, and went okay, if we
want to eliminate plastics, whatare the, what are the
hypotheses that can allow us todo that?
We did a lot of research anddevelopment on the actual
hypotheses before we set foot inthe lab and we had a fairly
(17:25):
structured design mapped outbefore we came in and started,
and so when we did, we sort ofhad the backbone of the type of
testing that we wanted to, thatwe wanted to kick off with.
And, yeah, I suppose the mostexciting recent development is
that Twan has joined the teamwho's?
now a lead scientist and he's amaterial material scientist and
(17:49):
a polymer specialist, and he'sjust a.
He's a guru.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Yeah, I remember sitting in on part of that
conversation where we sort ofpulled together a presentation.
I was like, oh wow, this is.
I did not expect this.
Like I think it's so excitingwhen you see people so
passionate about what they'redoing and and I think as well,
like, given his, like, hispedigree and his background and
what he was doing, that's aperfect fit for the team.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Yeah, worse.
Yeah, could not be more excitedand he's just such a lovely
human as well.
But he's, he has in hisprevious roles.
He he's just come from aVietnamese startup where they
were doing 3D, 3d printing todesign all kinds of prototypes.
(18:34):
I mean he could potentiallydesign this pen, or you know,
any any number of differentproducts.
But at that startup he also hadfirst hand experience at going
into PU and PVC syntheticleather producers and seeing
firsthand the the destructivenature of the production of
(18:56):
those materials on the health ofthe people who are working in
the factories and part of whathe did was help design systems
that would actually make theirlives safer.
Because it was, yeah, it wasshocking, and I think that
experience was when he saw thejob application come up for this
.
He knew that his expertisewould come into play.
But he was also reallypassionate about creating much
(19:16):
more sustainable materials fromboth an ethical perspective but
also an environmentalperspective.
So, yeah, we're really lucky tohave him on board.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Yeah, it's, it's so fascinating seeing how pretty
much every startup that's comethrough I guess the CoLab's
ecosystem is kind ofsimultaneously trying to address
the social and theenvironmental at the same time
through their sort ofimpact-oriented innovations.
So yeah, it's, it's fascinatingto see that like all the all
(19:48):
the innovation that's comingthrough now really is trying to
address those and trying not toacknowledging the interwoven,
interconnectedness of all ofthese problems that you can't
just like isolate one out or theother out.
And acknowledging that fromlike a wide boundary thinking
perspective is that everythingis interconnected and
interrelated.
And it's interesting hearingyou speak speaking to this
(20:10):
without I don't think we've everformally spoken about like
complexity or systems thinkingor anything like that.
But it's fascinating to seethat these are things that
you're integrating sort ofintuitively in your organization
.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
And one thing I think that alot of people love about what
we're doing from an Australianperspective is just the fact
that we're using agriculturalbiomass and that then in turn,
supports, you know, rural areasof Australia and yeah, and then
obviously having a supply chainthat's completely transparent.
But also in Australia,obviously, our standards of
(20:44):
working are really high, so weknow that we're going to have
fair working environments andthat will set the precedent for
future production lines that wemight have around the world.
So, yeah, look, we're reallyexcited to be having to be
creating an Australian madeproduct and setting, hopefully,
a global benchmark in terms ofthe material that we're
producing, and it'll be secularand it will be beautiful.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Yeah, I think it's really interesting seeing as
well all of these circularinnovations that are popping up.
I can't help but feel likethere are a lot of challenges
associated with trying to dothings circular.
Biobased and is your product?
Is it also, is it homecompostable or is it
commercially compostable?
(21:28):
Like what are the?
Because there's so many wordsthat are thrown around and I
guess what I'm saying is likeit's really interesting to for I
guess people who might not 100%know what the words mean, maybe
you could provide somedefinitions by what you mean by
a biobased leather alternative.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Yeah, so biobased would basically mean that
there's, there's, it's, it's allcomes from a bio, a space of
bio.
So there's nothing synthetic init, there's nothing toxic in it
, there's nothing plastic in itit's, it's, it's plant-based,
basically everything everysingle input comes from a plant.
(22:06):
Yeah, biodegradable like it's,that's just it's too hard to it
changes from continent tocontinent.
There's there's, for example, Ithink, to be by a biodegradable
in Australia, it has to andhome compostable.
It needs to happen within 90days.
30 to 90 days, I think it's acertain amount like it's.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
it doesn't necessarily have to be the whole
thing it's so it's all over theplace and I can understand why
people don't necessarily knowwhat the heck's going on.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
But I think, kind of if I was to pick up on what I'm
feeling you're saying the mainthings are is that you're just
trying to make sure that it's,you know, using green chemistry
principles as much as possibleso that's non-toxic, not harmful
, it's made from agriculturalwaste, so it's circular and
biobased and sustainable in thesense in which it is using
(22:59):
things that are again it's thatcircular side of it and then
also not using toxic productswhen you're factoring that in,
and then also sustainable from aresilience perspective, like
you're trying to make sure that,no matter what happens, you've
got the right inputs about a mixtogether and make it happen.
Yeah, even if we do have maybefloods, fires, droughts, all
this sort of thing thatunfortunately, will be happening
(23:22):
more as time goes on.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Yeah, but we are, we are.
So we're designing for end oflife in two ways.
So, if, if products do end upin landfill, as you said,
there's no, there's nothingtoxic in them at all.
So when they do eventuallybreak down, it might take
slightly longer than if you wereto put it in your home compost,
like something that wasactually home compostable.
It's obviously going to take alot longer to buy a degrade than
(23:47):
that, but nothing.
There'll be nothing left of itand it won't affect the earth in
any way.
So, that's, that's one.
But we're also designing it sothat it can be recycled back
into our system.
So, for example, if we're, whenwe're rolling out our material
in rolls, if there is scrapthat's cut off to the side, we
(24:10):
can then recycle that back intoour systems.
Eventually, we'll have you know.
Obviously, in the early daysit's going to be really
difficult to do.
We'll be focused 100% ongetting our premium line out.
But when people do returnproducts to us, we'll be able to
recycle them back into oursystem, minus the hardware and
anything else that might beattached to it.
(24:31):
But yeah, so we're designingfor recyclability and for
biodegradability not within acertain timeframe, but if it
does end up in landfill, it willdegrade without leaving a trace
.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Assuming it doesn't have the metal clips and
everything still on Hardware wehave too much about.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, yeah, that'll have to be removed, but yes, so
nothing toxic going in andnothing toxic therefore being
left behind.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah, no, it's really exciting.
Like where do you think, likewhere do you see this going in
the next couple of years?
Or where do you sort of seeyourself in and say another five
years?
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Well, the next couple of years will be we'll start
our manufacturing, so we're, bythe end of next year, we'll
definitely have a commerciallyviable product, will be sampling
with with, hopefully, globalbrands.
We've got great demand andappetite and then, in five years
time, we'll be operating atscale.
Absolutely, we'll have ourfirst major production line and
(25:32):
then the way that our systemsare set up is that we'll have,
as I mentioned before, modularproduction systems.
So the first line will fund theproduction of the second line
and it's completely demand based, so we'll only scale with
demand.
If demand goes through the roof,we'll have the opportunity to
triple that scale.
But, yeah, it's a.
It's a very much a moduleproduction line, but we're not
(25:55):
sort of limited to justproducing, producing a leather.
Alternative we could.
Our mother company mothercompany name is old materials,
so old leather is the firstthing that we're focusing on,
but it might be old plastics,old silks, old cotton.
There's a lot of different waysthat we can, that we can go and
just be constantly developingand designing new and exciting
(26:18):
circular biomaterials.
So that's the grand plan.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Yeah, and so off that .
How has the product beingreceived thus far by potential
consumers or purchases, or yeahbrands yeah, brands, that's the
word I was looking for.
I'm like, oh gosh, I haven'thad enough coffee Very very,
very great reception.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
I think, as you said before we've we're at a really
exciting point in the journey interms of having something that
we can actually now take in intothese meetings and say, hey,
look and feel and touch ouramazing production.
That generates a lot ofexcitement, whereas before we
didn't have anything that wecould.
We knew where we were going,but we didn't have anything that
we could show.
So it's a it's is superexciting.
(27:03):
We're getting a lot of momentumand traction from both
investors and and potentialcustomers, because they can
actually see it and they cantouch it and they can feel it
and they can look at it and go,oh, my gosh, I can't I actually
can't believe that this is notanimal leather.
This entire, this piece ofmaterial is made entirely from
plants.
So, yeah, it's exciting andyou've I mean you've seen the
(27:24):
leather grain and and then thecrocodile, crocodile pattern,
it's, it's pretty amazing.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
And I think you're right there's, there is
something to having an artifact,having something that's
tangible, physical, that you cansee, touch, smell.
Even smell is important withthis sort of stuff.
Feel like that is so importantI mean we to use.
I guess what we're doing is anexample like we.
We definitely had that issue tobegin with.
People like I get that you'rewanting to build a lab, but
(27:54):
where's the lab?
Well, if you give us the money,we'll make you the lab, and I
feel like that is a recurringtheme that you hear.
So, like you know that lastyear one of our other members,
we managed to get across to H&Mfor the Global Changemakers
Award, so it was the one theearly bird prize.
(28:16):
Unfortunately, that projecthasn't continued on since then.
Would still love to make itcontinue on, but that was one of
the main things that peoplewere mentioning over there was a
big.
I guess you could say like adisconnect on wants and needs
from the provider and the supplyand the buyer, and just saying
(28:39):
that a lot of the issues withthese sort of projects is that
it might take, as you said, fiveyears to get to scale.
People love it, but then theygo okay, cool, well, I want like
5000 tons of this tomorrow andno this is.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
This is what this is.
We were just talking about thisthis morning actually because,
now that people can touch it andsee it and they get really
excited about it because theyknow that we're doing everything
the right way.
And there aren't that manymaterials on the market that are
doing it the right way.
Everyone sort of just the netthe very within 10 seconds.
So when can I get a one by onemeter piece?
(29:15):
And we're obviously developingit lab scale at the moment, so
our pieces are more like, Idon't know, 15 centimeters by 15
centimeters and what.
What people don't realize is toget it up to that next size.
There's a whole lot of thinkingthat goes behind that.
It's not just as simple as okay, multiply by 100.
(29:35):
It's yeah it, you know somewhatnonlinear.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
It's like a phase shift in how you have to
structure and do what you'redoing.
It's not you can't just likedouble the.
It's like you don't make a cakeby just doubling or quadrupling
or 10 x in the ingredients likeat scale.
These things change in anonlinear way yeah exactly.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Well, you need the starters, you need all kinds of
bigger machinery, and then froma consistency perspective at
scale, it's much morechallenging.
And then you know if you'reusing, say, a compression
molding system.
To do that at a four size youmight only need a ton of weight,
but to do that at one by onemeter you're going to need 24
(30:17):
tons of weight.
I'm just throwing these figuresaround that they're not legit,
by the way, but there's.
there's so much more to gettingfrom a lab's lab sort of size
piece up to a decent sizesampling piece, but that's our
focus for the next six months.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
So, yeah, I was going to say, even though that is a
big, let's say, gap totransition from and to from the
conversations we've had, thatsort of, as you said, that's
kind of what you're working onright now, and is that something
Twine was actually activelyworking on in the lab in terms
of, like, pulling together apitch of like oh, here's what we
need, here's how we get thereand here's what we can offer.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Yeah, so Twine and I talk a lot about timelines where
it's constantly sort of mappingout timelines, and and there is
two key things that we need tofocus on in parallel, and one is
designing the chemicalformulations so that they're as
sustainable as possible, butalso so that they're fit for the
actual production of them.
(31:15):
So, depending on the productionsystems that you put in place,
the chemical formulation will bedifferent.
So it's quite a complex thingthat needs to work side by side.
So, yeah, we're sort of willhave multiple meetings
throughout the week to talkabout okay, this is what we're
thinking right now, but thatmight change next week or it
(31:36):
might be slightly different nextweek, depending on the results
of the chemical formulationsthat are happening in the lab.
So, but we are definitelydesigning the formula for a
certain style of production.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Okay, so taking on like an iterative design
approach, where you're justconstantly it's like
evolutionary you know you'reconstantly tweaking and
adjusting and striving towardsgetting at the best you can to
that next level, withoutactually having the next level
of infrastructure to supportthat.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So what we do pre-pilot will beprobably completely different
to what we do in pilot.
The formulation won't changebecause we will have designed it
in such a way that it'll workfor both of those phases.
Yeah, it's complex.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
It's always complex.
It's just part of.
I mean, you're moving so fast,right, like to see how quick
it's grown, and I know for you,like behind the scenes, it has
been a challenging sort ofperiod to navigate, but like you
wouldn't know from the outside,like you've done such a good
job of holding it all togetherand pulling it together and
(32:39):
growing the team, yeah, it'sreally exciting seeing you know
where you've come from and whereyou're at now, and now that
you're kind of looking for someto raise additional funds to try
and get it to that next scale.
So would you like to touch onthat a little bit?
Oh, the raise process.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, how's thatbeen.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Yeah, it's been really good, I think because I
have been on this journey forquite a number of years now.
I've got people in my directnetwork, so we've been sort of
following along with interestand have seen how hard we've
been working at it and arereally interested in supporting
that.
So that's been amazing.
And then I would just say thatthe startup community in
(33:19):
Melbourne is an incrediblecommunity and I also applied for
a number of acceleratorprograms and through those
accelerator programs I've hadmentors who are also now
potentially going to come on asangels.
So we're literally about toopen this first raise within the
next week.
We've got, we've had soexciting.
(33:41):
So exciting.
We've had, I think, about fouror five investor meetings and,
yeah, the response has just beenoverwhelmingly supportive and,
yeah, I just feel the networkand that's probably one thing
that I would say to anyone whois thinking about starting
something is just make sure thatyou have network is everything.
Making sure that you've gotreally strategic players in
(34:02):
place for every part of thejourney that you're going to be
going on, and making sure thatthe investors that you're
talking to are going to be ableto add value, just beyond giving
you money, because you wantpeople on your team, or an
extension of your team, who,yeah sure they're helping you
with funds but, more importantly, they can help you with advice
for each of those stages thatyou're going to go through,
(34:23):
because every stage iscompletely different and, yeah,
and overwhelming.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Yeah, that reminds me of I think it's just like basic
principles of biomimicry,Insofar as you just you never
want to have anything that'sonly fit for one purpose.
You kind of likemultifunctionality is essential,
and it kind of seems like thatis a something that even applies
to these sorts of relationshipsthat you're talking about from
(34:50):
a finance sort of side of things.
It's like yeah, it's great ifsomeone can give you the money,
but wanting to make sure thatthere's other ways in which they
can maybe qualitativelycontribute.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
That isn't necessarily just money.
Absolutely, and I'm yeah, Iguess that's one thing that I
think we've done really well isset up those people so that when
I've got a manufacturingquestion I can just go oh, you
know, so-and-so, I've got this.
What do we do about?
you know, I had a conversationwith an amazing mentor on Friday
(35:20):
about manufacturing and he wasjust giving me the insights of
how to lay out the manufacturingprocess in a way that is really
appealing for investors, sothat you can sort of walk them
through it, rather, and givethem a really clear visual of
how it's all going to work,rather than just sort of being a
2D on paper or just adescription.
Making sure that they've got avisual way of taking it away so
(35:45):
that they can go with them, sothat they'll think about it and
go oh, wow, yeah, cool.
So that piece of machinery iswhere my funds are going to go,
but sort of doing that for themachinery but then also doing it
for the chemistry, and doing itfirst so that people can
actually get excited, just likethey do when they pick up your
material.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
So is that something that you've been doing with,
because I know that you send outregular updates to, I guess,
your network and is that sort ofa place where you do keep that?
So it's kind of like an ongoingnarrative of what you are and
what you're doing, and you'resaying that you've found that is
an incredibly valuable way ofbuilding that rapport with
people who have invested and whomight potentially look at
(36:22):
investing.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Yeah, definitely.
That's been a great way.
And as soon as we startedshowing visuals of what we were
doing, everybody got reallyexcited, because before that it
was just words on paper andpeople going oh it sounds like a
great idea, but what are theyreally doing?
And now they can see photos ofour team in the lab and they can
see the outputs and they cansee the wallets that we're
making and all of a sudden it'sgetting really real.
(36:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Yeah, is there any milestones that have sort of
happened recently that you'resuper proud of?
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Yes, I think it was.
Well, I think, andrew, youmight have over been there too,
sam, but when we pulled thepiece of material out of, you
know, the first embossed pieceof material out of the oven, and
we all just went, oh my God, itlooks like leather, like it's.
We've actually We've done it.
This is amazing.
That was, you know, the mostexciting by far.
(37:16):
And then I think having Twan onboard is really exciting.
But I've got to say, because weare moving at pace and because
every week really is sodifferent I think there's
incredible rewards on a weeklybasis that, yeah, you know,
whether it's a new conversationyou've had with someone
(37:36):
completely new, or whether it'sa new development in the lab,
you know, I was down thismorning and Twan said hey, you
know, come and check this out,look what happened overnight.
And it's a new little bit ofprogress that has happened
overnight just by switching outone of the inputs, and it's, you
know, potentially stepped usforward another couple of weeks
overnight.
So yeah, I think we're creating, we're inventing something new
(38:02):
and every week is completelydifferent.
And you know, I was in with oneof the major fashion groups
last week and there came tolocking a partnership.
So then that just spurred youon and you go, wow, okay, every
day is different, every week isdifferent, so it's just an
exciting time.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
Nice, that was actually going to be one of my
next questions Do you have anyprospective partners lined up?
But I guess it's probably a bittight-lipped.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Yeah, we can't really talk about them.
Most of you know, we've spokento probably over 35 of
Australia's leading brands andwe have qualitative interviews
with all of them, so we workthrough what their requirements
look like and how we canbasically create the best
material for them to use andlearn all about their production
(38:47):
processes, the types of volumesthat they would be needing us
to produce to make it ameaningful partnership, and so
we've had lots of those amazingconversations and we're starting
to now look at internationalpartners as well.
So, yeah, lots of learning andlots of exciting opportunities.
On the horizon.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
Ah, so cool.
This is a I wouldn't call it acurveball, but like it's
probably a hashtag real talkmoment.
Is there anything that youthink you would have done
differently on your journey, orare you kind of happy with the
way it's all panned out?
Speaker 2 (39:24):
I'm happy with the way everything is panned out,
but it hasn't been easy.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
It's like whatever it is when you're trying to do
zero to one.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
When you're trying to set a new global standard and
invent something new?
I would.
I am a very impulsive personand I often say and this is
something that I've learnt aboutmyself over the last year I
probably always knew that it wasthere, but I've learnt it
(39:55):
firsthand.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
It's hard when your shadow side is a positive trait,
it's much harder to notice theshadow sides of it.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
I would say so what I've realised that I do is I say
yes, yes, yes, yes.
People please, people pleaseyes yes, yes, yes, yes, until
I'm in this massive kind of yeshole, and then I have to kind of
sounds like the opposite ofabundance.
Find my way out of it.
And the problems with that.
(40:25):
Well, the major problem withthat is that I think once you're
in that yes hole, sometimes youhave to hurt feelings and, you
know, mend things to get out ofit.
So you think at the time thatsaying yes is helping the person
or making everybody happy, butin actual fact it ends up maybe
having a really negative effect.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
It can be worse in the long term.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
So I think I was saying this to you the other day
, sam, but my new mantra isleave it with me, leave it with
me, we'll think about it andthen actually do the proper due
diligence to you know, to makesure that if, for example, it's
going to be a workingpartnership, or you're adding
someone new to the team, or thatyou actually that it is the
(41:08):
right fit and it has to be theright fit for both people and
you're not just saying yesbecause you want to make them
feel good at the time, like youknow, you need to really do the
due diligence and work throughand take it really seriously,
because this is you know a 10,15-plus year journey that you're
on and you have to trade itlike a marriage and make sure
that, yeah, it's going to workfor everybody, that everybody's
(41:32):
going to be happy, and, ofcourse, during that long period
things are going to change andthere's going to be ups and
downs, but you don't want it tobackfire within the first, you
know, a couple of months,because it's an expensive
process to go through and it'syou know it's a hard one to fill
.
I suppose the space that someoneexiting leaves but, also.
(41:56):
Yeah, I don't know, it's justyou just do the due diligence
before you enter into somethingthat's Serious, I suppose.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
Yeah, and it's so much easier said than done,
depending on where you're at andwhat's going on in the
organization, especially as astartup, and you might have your
attention pulled in multipledifferent directions.
It's like finding a way toalign, like the intellect, the
ego and the heart is not an easyTrinity to find, like a common
(42:28):
center of gravity or balancebetween and it's.
I think it's an ongoing andcontinual process for everyone.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
So definitely, especially when you're someone
like me.
You think everybody's amazing.
Oh, my god, you're amazingyourself.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
All my problem the golden retriever approach to
startups.
It definitely works, though Imust say.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
We're doing okay.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Yeah, so on that note , as well as any other advice
that you might provide to otherpeople like, probably honestly
one of the most common thingsthat we've had startups and
students coming through, as theyare, especially from RMIT, is a
very interested in you know,next-gen materials, whether
that's mycelium or.
We've got a group, agus group,who are looking at using bull
(43:15):
rush to make a non-woven fiber.
What advice would you give tothese people, whether it's
students or Just anyone ingeneral, who are trying to get
into this space?
Is there anything that makesthis different to say I don't
know a normal startup, whateverthat means?
Speaker 2 (43:32):
I think in, I think just in general, starting any
kind of business, yeah, you haveto find I know this sounds
really cliche and cheesy, but ithas to be purpose driven.
There has to be somethingdeeper than just going oh, I
want to, I want to create thisnew thing and make lots of money
.
And you know it has to have adeeper purpose.
(43:53):
It has to find.
You have to be driven bysomething that's not just
surface, because you are gonnahave some really, really, really
shit days when you feel likehow am I gonna be able to keep
going, how can I get out of bedand keep going and keep doing
this?
Like I've lost all motivationand if you don't have that
deeper sense of purpose attachedto whatever you're trying to
(44:16):
achieve, you probably won't getout of bed, you probably won't
continue it.
But in all seriousness, like youknow what I mean, oh, I do have
to be bigger than just I wantto be rich and famous and start
this thing and it's gonna bereally cool, like it really has
to.
It really has to.
You have to feel it in yourbones.
Basically, and I think for me,climate is that you know, and
(44:39):
I've grown up being a veryoutdoorsy person and I've
traveled the world and hiked tosome pretty remote places in the
Andes and the Rockies and youknow, the Amazon jungle, and it
is, I Guess it's sort of formswho I am and it's a really big
part of who I am, and I thinkprotecting that environment is
(45:02):
massively important to me andthat's the thing that kind of
keeps me going.
And you know, something, shitwill happen and I'll go oh my
god, this is so hard.
Like, how am I gonna get?
I can't do this by myself,there's too much pressure, it's
just crazy.
And then you just take a stepback and you you hook back into
that purpose and it's what keepsyou going.
(45:23):
So, and I think, also, people,a Really I'm a real people
person and I'm I love workingwith smart people who are, who
are passionate about things, andI think that's something that
you and Andrew have created hereat collabs.
That makes such an incredibleenvironment to work in is that
it's a.
It's a it's a little ecosystemof really smart, passionate
(45:46):
people who are all sort of, Isuppose, focused on the same end
goal, and being a part of thatis a really special thing.
And, yeah, I'm trying and Iwould talking about that just a
couple of days ago to Loveworking here.
It's just, you know, it's areally great place to be, so.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Oh, thank you.
Yeah, it's um, it's definitelyintentional.
I think I love Brian.
He knows way of describing Idon't have.
You've heard of the termseniors.
No it's a genius of place.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
Oh right.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
So, rather than genius being locked within an
individual which, yes, obviouslyit can like, yeah, einstein,
oppenheimer, I don't know whyI'm only going with physicists-
one twine.
Yeah, yeah, right Like there isthese lone wolf geniuses that
can kind of like do everythingand and whatnot, but the
collective intelligence thatcomes with a Community that has
(46:36):
a certain culture, I thinkthere's.
There's something really strongin that.
I know, like teach Nahan waslike one of his Famous quotes
was like the next Buddha will bethe song and and and the song
of being the community thatsurrounds the spiritual
teachings.
I think it's kind of take thatapproach for innovation.
It's like the, it'scollectively we need to be
cultivating an ecosystem ofResponses to our times.
(47:00):
I wouldn't say solutions,because a lot of the time the
solutions end up being theproblems of the future.
But that's for another time.
But yeah, it's like we need tobe bringing together people to
come up with these ideas andinnovations and and through
having other Bright minds andwarm hearts around, that is
actually the really generativelike that's, that's where the
money happens.
It's it's the engineers,serendipity or the things that
(47:23):
happen just because and youhadn't like it wasn't yeah, I
thought you make that happen.
You can only Create theconditions to allow that to
emerge.
Yeah, and it's been prettycrazy Having that as the
intention and then it actuallyhappens.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
Yeah, we've done a great job at that.
I mean the number of times thatsomeone's walked past, and you
know, we've.
We've been trying to solve aproblem and They've said, oh,
have you thought about this?
And you go oh, I thought aboutthat, but we will now.
Because, yeah, I think I think,as you say, having a whole
bunch of people who are focusedon the same end goal, who can
sort of help each other alongthe way.
Speaker 1 (48:00):
Hmm, yeah, engineering, serendipity is what
we call it, but yeah, it'sexactly that.
It's like we're all.
We're all trying to strivetowards Supporting and raising
social foundations or bringingus within planetary boundaries
so that we can, you know, letlife continue on this planet.
And I think that having that asthe thing that, and knowing
that, oh cool, magic Valley isdoing that through cultivated
(48:23):
meat, you know, we all you'vegot Tina, we're doing that
through materials, and thenwe've got other people who are
doing it through improvingfertility for females.
Like there's all of thesedifferent ways in which people
are showing up and contributingto impact-oriented innovation
and, yeah, just having a spacewhere other like-minded people
are around, but still diverseand different.
(48:44):
So it's like I know that the,the overlapping of ecosystems is
where you get the mostBiodiversity, and that's why I
was sort of so interested inhaving so many different people
from different disciplinesworking on things.
Hence the transdisciplinary,because that's where cool things
happen, like I know Jacob fromMagic Valley was helping you
with, like he has helped us alot.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
Yeah, Jacob is a legend.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:07):
Yeah, we've done.
We've done laser, we've doneMolding, we've done all kinds of
stuff together.
He's taught me even how to sewyou leather stitching, really
yes.
He has, I have.
I have hand stitched our firstlaser-cut leather Wallet
prototype using Jacob'stechnique nice.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
Is that that little?
The credit card one that I'veseen Stitching?
Yeah, that's beautiful.
Speaker 2 (49:30):
Yeah, it's great, that was Jacob.
Thanks, jacob.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
Oh, what a legend.
He says that he just doesn'tlike humans.
But I don't believe him likehe's such a helpful.
Exactly, I just don't likepeople.
I'm like, yes, you do.
You, you're a closet, niceperson.
Stop trying to pretend that youdon't like humans.
No, it's been, it's been andthat's this is.
This is the thing, this iswhat's so fun about this space
is like, Like I've said to youbefore, as I, like Andrew and I,
(49:57):
we kind of came to therealization that we couldn't
like do everything, or it's likewe're not going to change the
world, but collectively, if youbring enough people together,
it's pretty amazing what canhappen.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
Yeah, I agree yes.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
Is there anything else you wanted to talk about?
Speaker 2 (50:12):
Hmm.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
I don't really mind, I'm kind of.
I'm kind of good, like, if youwant to, if you want to jam out
on anything else, I'm sure wecan throw something in the mix.
But um, yeah, I'm also Happy ifyou want to call, it's up to
you.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
Well, we did just end on saving the world, so that
was a pretty good note to end on.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
Okay, I guess.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
I guess the only other thing is obviously we are
raising so oh yeah cool.
If anyone is interested, pleasefeel free to reach out Tina at
alt leather Dot com.
Great, I should say.
Speaker 1 (50:46):
Oh, good, good, yeah, well, um, we'll throw some
details in the show notes If weend up getting them.
I feel like everyone says that,so I just feel like saying it.
Speaker 2 (50:54):
Yeah, podcast.
Well, we'll put it in the shownotes.
Speaker 1 (50:58):
Um, yeah, it'll be me putting it together, though it
won't be someone else.
Like every other podcastactually has people on the team
doing things.
It's just all me and Andrew, um, but yeah, so we'll pull that
together and we'll get somecontent out.
So Thanks so much for droppingin and giving us some of your
time.
I know that time is scarce foryou, so I appreciate Every
(51:18):
minute of it.
Thanks for having me, noworries, see ya, see ya, yeah.
Thanks so much for listening toanother episode of the strange
attractor.
Um, yeah, if you, which meansthis podcast will continue to
adapt and evolve as we strive tomake more space, both physical
(51:40):
and digital space, available Tosupport the bright minds and
warm hearts that are working onbio led design and innovation.
Anyway, thanks for listening.
Uh, more podcasts will becoming out shortly with the rest
of our members.
Please do feel free to get incontact if you want to say hello
or join our community, and I'llsee you here next time.
(52:04):
The strange tracked out.
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