October 21, 2022 • 36 mins
Validation. What is it and how can we do it well? Listen in on today's episode as Psychotherapist and fellow T1D parent, Joanne Robb, and I talk about validating our child's (and our own) feelings and emotions as we continue on our type one journey.
Being the parent or caregiver to a child living with type 1 diabetes can come with a lot of emotional, mental and relational challenges. Joanne is such a great resource for parents and caregivers of type 1 diabetics. In her practice, coaching courses and podcast, she primarily deals with the emotional and relational challenges that come along with managing T1D day in and day out. Check out all the links below to find Joanne! Enjoy!
For JOANNE'S WEBSITE click HERE. Click on the dark purple banner at the top of the page to be a guest on her podcast and have your questions answered! You'll also find a direct link to the podcast itself.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Katie (00:00):
This is episode 89 of the sugar mamas podcast.
And today I am back withpsychotherapist and fellow T one
D mama Joann, Rob.
Be sure to check out Joanne'swebsite, diabetes, sweet
talk.com.
There you can find a link toregister for one of her courses.
Joanne is passionate abouthelping other parents and
(00:22):
caregivers of type one diabeticsdeal with the emotional.
And relational challenge thatcome along with managing type
one.
She offers several courses thatdo just that.
And Joanne recently started apodcast, which I am absolutely
loving.
Called sweet talk for parents ofkids with type one diabetes.
And if you want to have yourquestions answered by Joanne.
(00:45):
Visit the website, diabetes.
Sweet talk.com.
And click on the purple bannerat the top of the page to submit
your question.
You can be a guest on Joanneshow.
It can all be done anonymously.
But you will get to chat withJoanne and have her answer your
question.
You guys it's like a minitherapy session.
And we all need one of those.
Okay.
The topic of today's episode isvalidation.
(01:08):
What is it?
And how can we do it?
Well, Let's get started.
You're listening to the sugarmamas podcast, a show designed
for moms and caregivers of typeone diabetics here.
You'll find a community oflike-minded people who are
striving daily to keep theirkids safe, happy, and healthy in
(01:31):
the ever-changing world of typeone.
I'm your host and fellow T one Dmom, Katie Roseboro.
Before we get started.
I need you to know that nothingyou hear on the sugar mamas
podcast should be consideredmedical advice.
Please be safe, be smart, andalways consult your physician
before making changes to the wayyou manage type one diabetes.
(01:54):
Thanks.
Good morning, or it might not bemorning when you're listening to
this, but hello everybody.
I'm back today with Joanne Rob.
And um, just as a reminder,Joanne is a psychotherapist.
She's also a type one mom.
She has two kids with type onediabetes.
One is already grown and out ofthe house.
(02:16):
And one is, is is he still incollege or is he even done with
Joanne (02:19):
No, he's done with college.
He's actually home for a minuteand he's moving to Spain.
Katie (02:24):
Woo.
That's great.
And then your daughter with typeone is in high school.
Joanne (02:27):
Yeah, freshman
Katie (02:28):
Okay.
She's a freshman in high
Joanne (02:30):
and then I don't wanna forget that I have another
child,
Katie (02:33):
I know this other kid
Joanne (02:35):
you know that other child
Katie (02:38):
I know.
And I'm sure that you love thatother child just as much as you.
Joanne (02:44):
some days more Katie, but don't tell anyone else that.
Katie (02:48):
Anybody except for the listeners that are gonna be
tuning in take that you want.
Let's see.
You mostly deal with theemotional, mental, relational
aspects of having to deal andmanage, deal with and manage
Type one diabetes on a dailybasis and your practice.
And you recently started apodcast, which I am personally
(03:09):
loving.
It's called Sweet Talk, right?
Diabetes Sweet.
Joanne (03:12):
It's called Sweet Talk for parents of kids with Type
one Diabetes.
Katie (03:16):
talk with parents of kids for type one.
I just listened to your mostrecent episode this morning,
actually
Joanne (03:20):
Oh, thank you.
Katie (03:21):
chatted with you.
It was a good one.
It was about elementary age kidsand just ways to share with
teachers and friends aboutdiabetes if they feel
comfortable.
Anyway, it's a good one.
Listen in.
I'll put a link in the shownotes for everybody.
And just a quick plug becausehonestly, I, I'm really loving
your podcast and if you want tohave your type one questions
(03:41):
answered, type one questions ina, again, kind of like along the
lines of like, mental struggles,emotional struggles, relational
struggle, struggles answered byJoanne.
You can go to her website.
I'll put a link in the shownotes to that as well.
And there's a banner at the topof the page where you can click.
And submit your question and youcan have a conversation with
(04:01):
Joanne and she will answer yourquestions for you, which I mean,
guys, it's like, it's like athree, a free mini therapy
session.
Who wouldn't want that?
Right?
So check it out.
Joanne (04:10):
Thanks, Katie.
Katie (04:11):
Oh, you're very welcome.
Today's topic is kind of, I feellike it's kind of a buzzword
right now, just in like themental health arena.
But it's validation.
Maybe it's not a buzzword, butI'm only becoming aware of it
within the past couple of years.
But it's, it's validation.
So we're gonna be talking aboutvalidation today.
So I guess we should just startwith Joanne.
Would you just tell listenerswhat that means?
(04:33):
What is valid?
Joanne (04:34):
That's such a good question.
I feel like I should pull up mynotes.
So I should give a more officiallike Webster style definition,
but essentially validation ishelping a person to feel like
their concerns if we're thinkingabout emotional validation, that
their concerns have legitimacyin your eyes.
Right, that their emotionalstate has legitimacy.
(04:54):
one of the things I find, Katie,that can be hard for people when
thinking about validation isthey feel.
Validation means they'reagreeing with their child and
sometimes we don't agree withour children, but that's
actually not what validation is.
Validation is being able to seefrom their perspective where
your child or your partner oryour who, your sister, like
(05:16):
whoever you use it with, youknow where they're coming from
and legitimize their experienceof what they're, you know, how
they're feeling about.
Katie (05:25):
Yeah.
I've always thought of it as away to kind of, to to be able to
communicate, like I see you andI see what you're going through
and.
I like you exactly like yousaid, Like I might not agree
with you completely, or I mighthave dealt with this in a
different way, but I, I canunderstand why you might be
feeling that this way.
Is that correct?
Joanne (05:46):
Yeah, that's basically correct.
I, I do have a bit of a formulaI teach, which we can talk about
later about like how to do agood validation and I would
never insert the part that says,I don't agree with you but a
validation is exactly that,Katie.
It's, it's helping people feelgot, it's helping people feel
like you really see theirperspective.
Absolutely.
Katie (06:06):
Okay.
And I mean, why?
So just kind of verbalize whythat's so important for our kids
and not only our kids, but forus.
Cuz we have emotions too, asparents.
Joanne (06:16):
Absolutely.
When someone feels seen andvalidated, when they feel joined
in that way, they generallystand down.
So what do I mean by that?
Oftentimes we take hold ofsomething emotionally and we
feel like, I think of a dog witha bone.
Like we can't get it, We can'tseparate from it in any way.
And when someone feels validatedand seen, it just, it's a
(06:39):
natural human response to.
Because you feel joined, right?
We, we feel attached to kind ofnegative responses to things
often when we don't feel likeanyone understands what our
experience is.
So we kind of have to dig inwith the behaviors to get,
because that's our strategy toget seen and heard, right?
(07:00):
So, if we can validatesomebody's experience, often
they stand down and they, can hetake in then what we are
offering, what we do need, howwe do need to move them, or they
can take in our perspective, Imean, it's not rapid fire,
right?
Like if you're in a fight withyour spouse and you say, Yeah, I
can see why you, whatever.
but here's my perspective, thatwon't work so well.
(07:22):
But if over time you arevalidating somebody's experience
and perspective, they just willtrust you more and take in
better what it is you have tooffer.
Katie (07:30):
Okay.
Maybe this will come with theformula that we'll talk about in
a little bit, but are you sayingthat at first it might be a good
idea rather than to say, Youknow, I, I see where you're
coming from, but like, leave outthe, but for now, like, kind of
build up that relationship ofvalidation, so to speak um,
before you start to interjectyour own thoughts and opinions.
Joanne (07:51):
So you're jumping right to the, The problem we all have,
like when I teach validation,which I sometimes do a free
validation webinar, so if folksare interested, they can just
sign up for my newsletter andthey'll find out whenever that
comes next.
I actually don't know when Ihave it scheduled.
When I teach it, I say, Youknow, your kid comes to you and
says, I can't do my chores.
You say, I totally understandthat you're feeling very busy
(08:13):
with your homework and you can'tdo them, and what's the next
word you're gonna say?
And everybody knows that thenext word is, but
Katie (08:19):
Mm-hmm.
Joanne (08:19):
So when I teach validation, we, Well, there
actually two things.
When I teach validation as atool, we switch the butt to.
We actually slide over thesolution part and we do a lot
more deep validating
Katie (08:33):
Mm-hmm.
Joanne (08:34):
in your fast everyday life when you're moving quickly.
The tricky part is to, or the,the trick sorry, is to change
the butt to an and.
Right.
I know you can't mow the lawn.
Cuz you have a lot of homework.
I know you feel like you can'tmow lawn cuz you have a lot of
homework and the lawn actuallystill needs to be mowed.
Katie (08:51):
Mm-hmm.
Joanne (08:52):
because, but erases the whole first half of the
sentence.
Instantly it just says, whateveryou had to say is no longer
valid.
I'm just, I just took an eraserto it.
And so when you change it to,and you say, We're holding both
of these things, and it becomesa dialogue like, how do we hold
both of these things, right?
How do we support both of thesethings that you've had a lot of
(09:13):
homework, you're feelingstressed and don't wanna mow the
lawn, and the lawn still needsto be owed and it's your
respons.
Katie (09:19):
Would it be good to follow up with, so how do you
want to work through this to youknow, get the lawn mode, but
also make time for your homeworkand things like that?
Like open it up to aconversation of, okay, how can
we figure this out?
You know, because you'refrustrated and the lawn needs to
be you're frustrated, stressout, and the lawn needs to be
(09:41):
mowed.
Joanne (09:41):
So that example implies a child who's old enough to do
that kind of reasoning, right?
And yes, I might do that.
I might also just set a limit,right?
Like that kid, that lawn mowingkid is, might not be the best
example in a diabetes world, butwe can think of other examples
for sure.
But that lawn mowing kid isstruggling with time manage.
And struggling with priorities.
(10:02):
Like, my guess is your 14 yearold did not spend all week doing
their homework.
They also were on TikTok andthey were texting their friends
and they were doing all thethings right?
So you're holding the line as aparent there and helping them
come up with a solution for howthey can make it work.
Right?
Unless maybe they were sick allweek and have a lot of homework,
so you're feel like, Okay, we'llgive you a free pass.
You know?
I have no idea.
(10:23):
But in a validation tool when Iteach it in a bigger way, and we
should think of a more poignantexample than lawn mowing, Why
don't we start there and then Ican use that to sort of give a
strategy.
Katie (10:33):
Okay.
I mean, feel free to critique myexample, but let's say there's
a, a tween or a teenager orreally a kid of any age that is
forgetting and I put that in airquotes to bolus for meals or
just flat out not doing itbecause they don't want to,
because they're with theirfriends and they just rather not
have type one diabetes.
So, you know, you.
(10:54):
Engage them in a conversationabout it.
They get very defensive,emotional you know, if, if we're
lucky, maybe they would talk tous about how they feel
frustrated and angry aboutdiabetes because they don't have
to deal with it.
How would you approach thatsituation?
Joanne (11:08):
So I wanna back up to before like the validation needs
to come at the front end of theconversation.
Right.
So.
I always ha my personal favoritesentence starter is, it makes
sense, It makes sense thatyou're not boing, you know,
Kelly, because and this iswhere, this is where we slide
over our problem solving, right?
We, we move to be causes.
(11:28):
And what we have to do isimagine into this child's mind
and life and how they're tryingto escape from pain.
Or depending on the situation,work with their best intention.
Like nobody is coming from aplace of being ill intentioned
ever really.
I mean occasionally, right?
But it's pretty rare.
Most of us are doing our bestall of the time.
(11:50):
And so if we imagine that forour type one kid who's not
boing, what do we imagine andwhat is poignant?
It's not just diabetes is hard,right?
Because they know that alreadythey can dismiss you.
So it would be something like,Hey, sweet.
it makes so much sense thatyou're not boing for lunch.
I really get that because itfeels like you're outing
yourself all the time, right?
(12:11):
Because you're with your friendsand you don't want to have
diabetes.
And because I'm making up astory here because you just got
diagnosed, right?
And this was not anything youwanted.
And it feels really heavy andburdensome.
Right?
And this is where we shouldtoggle and we, you and I both
know.
That it's really important foryour health to get that insulin
(12:32):
in.
So let's think together abouthow we might be able to make one
change.
That's, that would be a morecomplete validation.
Right.
So the, because is likesometimes when I teach this to
parents, I encourage them towrite it down, like to, to
strategize the solution.
And strategize, sorry, thevalidation, but strategize like,
what is your child experiencing?
(12:52):
What is causing them so muchpain and difficulty?
And then turn that into a few,because statements, because your
kid will really feel seen.
And will they start boingmagically?
No, but they're gonna, you'regonna continue that quiet drum
beat and they're gonna feel seenand they're gonna eventually
internalize how important it isto take care of the.
Katie (13:13):
Yeah, no, that's great advice.
How do you think we shouldgently approach our kids when we
do start to notice some of thosepatterns of just them being
neglectful in their diabetesmanagement?
You know, if they're, if they'rea little bit older,
Joanne (13:24):
Yeah.
So I think validation ishelpful.
It's funny because my nextnewsletter, which will be out,
you know, you could again go tomy podcast cuz it's, it's the
blog postings it.
My next one that's coming out isabout change because I think one
of the things we forget withdiabetes is we get tugged by
every moment.
Right?
We have to, we have to payattention to this.
(13:46):
And then the next number, andthen the next number after that.
But we kinda lose sight of thelong term, the big picture when
we're doing that, we can't holdboth perspectives as easily.
So in terms of teens, first ofall, what I wanna say is it's
normal.
Like if you look at the data onthis, the data is that or the
data are that
Katie (14:07):
I don't know.
Joanne (14:08):
I always get that wrong.
Katie (14:09):
The.
data be, I'm not sure.
Joanne (14:11):
Exactly the data be that when kids hit their teen years,
their average A1C starts reallygo spiking up and it stays up
for a while.
And I'm not in any way saying,Go ahead, unclip your seatbelt.
These kids are just gonna do it.
It's like saying kids drink, youknow?
No, it's not like you're notgonna message, this isn't safe.
(14:31):
I don't approve of this.
Right.
All the things.
But you also have a strategywith them.
Like if you do.
Please call me.
I will pick you up.
Right?
Whatever yours family strategyis like.
You're not stupid, you.
you don't just let'em go andclose your eyes.
And so it's a little bit likethat with diabetes.
You keep the seatbelt clipped,you keep talking to them about
it.
(14:52):
You keep the relationship strongenough so that dialogue is
reasonable, right?
So it's not a fight.
And you have some expectationthat there's gonna be a period
where it's really hard.
Because of course it's hard cuzthey're teenagers and they have
other things to do in theirlives that are not diabetes.
Right.
It's hard to work it all in.
So it's a both and it's a bothlike talking to them about it,
(15:14):
recognizing and recognizing thatit's normal.
And I think I have, my mainmessage with so much is keep the
relationship strong so that youcan still have these
conversations.
Katie (15:26):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
That's good.
I know.
I try to be on the lookout forchanges in behavior with my
kids.
Because most kids don't justcome straight out and say, I'm
really angry about this, or I'mreally worried about this.
I just, I look for ways inwhich, in which they're acting
differently.
Like my older son is super.
(15:47):
For the most part, super social,very laid back, you know?
And you know, there, there was atime in his life where he just
was all of a sudden just gotreally short tempered and was
snapping at his siblings moreand snapping at me more.
And anyway, and you know, I, Ikind of went to him rather than
being like, What is wrong withyou?
Like, what is going on?
Just saying, Hey, I noticed thatyou are.
(16:09):
Acting, you've been acting thisway, and that's not like you, I
mean, you've always been this,this type of kid and this type
of kid.
And so I'm just wondering like,is everything okay?
Is there something going on thatyou might be stressed out about
or frustrated with?
And then he, he, he was able totalk to me, you know, about what
was truly bothering him.
So I, that's kind of, I have myradar up for that, like, What's,
(16:32):
what's different about theirbehavior that isn't consistent
with how they normally, withtheir baseline,
Joanne (16:37):
Yep.
I think that's beautiful andexactly right.
I also think that sometimes wecome to our kids and say, Hey,
what's going on?
And they say nothing and that'sokay too.
Right.
You can't expect that every timeyou're gonna hit it out of the
park.
And, and as kids get into theirteam years, they may or may not,
like I've had both scenarioswith my kids, but they, they
(16:59):
might.
Wanna share.
I still think it's important tolay the groundwork.
I am here, I am available andyou're kind of planting the
seed.
There's a, man named Michaelrra.
I really like his work.
He's a parenting, he's written afew parenting books and one
thing he said that really stuckwith me is you can ask your kid
like, Do you wanna do somethingwith me?
You can try to join with yourkid in lots of ways, a hundred
(17:20):
times and out of a hundred, youshould expect they say yes
twice.
Those are pretty, Terrible odds,and they feel bad as a parent,
but with some teenage kids,that's true.
Right?
So I think that what you didwith your son is absolutely a
hundred percent perfect, andwhen he's 15, he might blow you
off.
(17:41):
But eventually, I truly believethat eventually kids come around
and they know that it's safeterritory when we keep opening
ourselves up and makingourselves available to.
Katie (17:52):
Yeah.
And that's hard to do,especially when you're tired at
the end of the day,
Joanne (17:55):
You got it Katie.
It's really hard to do and I,you know, I'm really good at
saying this.
What?
Katie (18:01):
That's when they wanna talk to you at the end of the
day.
Joanne (18:03):
Oh, that's right.
They're like junior vampires.
Yeah.
I totally agree.
And, and also we lose ourpatients right?
With like my 14 year olddaughter is definitely giving me
a run for my money right nowaround this.
And it's hard for me to keeptaking a loving.
Like, so I wanna acknowledgethat I can say this, and I also
know how hard it can be to do.
Katie (18:23):
Mm-hmm.
What are some of the, in yourpractice, kind of the ripple
effects long term ripple effectsof kids that maybe weren't
validated in their feelings andemotions as, as a kid?
I mean, how does that sometimestranslate into adulthood or how
they cope with things?
Joanne (18:42):
So that's a real therapy question.
Like I have patients in mypractice who never felt
validated, in fact, felt shamedabout what they came forward
with, right?
Because sometimes we do thatwith our kids.
We're annoyed that they'rehaving an emotional, what feels
like a lot of emotion and toomuch emotion for us.
There can be that feeling oflike, I didn't do this.
(19:05):
You have a nice life.
Why are you complaining so much?
There can be a lot of thatfeeling inside of us.
And I have patients in mypractice who feel so much shame
about their own emotion thatthey kind of either shut down,
right and they're not availableto their partner, to their kids,
to themselves.
Or they get really like, again,like a dog with a bone kind of
(19:26):
insistent in a way that's reallyRight.
So what I would say is, it's akind of sophisticated answer,
but ultimately what it is, isthat in those moments where we,
our self talk says that we'renot legitimate, Right, because
we got messaging that what we'reexperiencing is not, or how
we're behaving is notlegitimate, and what we're
experiencing is not legitimatein those moments.
(19:47):
We're kind of not our bestselves and therefore we have
trouble relating to otherpeople, right?
We have trouble relating to ourwork.
We have trouble, whatever therelational piece is, but it has
a ripple effect in that way.
Does that answer your question?
Does that make sense?
Katie (20:01):
Yeah.
I was just curious.
I was just curious.
You're sure that can manifest inmany different ways, yeah, so I
mean, I definitely wanna be moreaware of the words that I say
and how I say them.
So maybe let's, let's talk aboutthe formula that you mentioned
in the beginning.
And I know you know, just how,how do you recommend we kind.
Use our words in the right way.
Joanne (20:22):
Mm-hmm.
.Mm-hmm.
.So, I wanna back up a secondbecause.
There's this concept of a goodenough, it actually came up as a
good enough mother, but a goodenough parent.
And, and we worry likethoughtful parents worry a lot
about how we say it, how we doit, Are we getting it right?
What's fascinating is that theresearch shows that you get it
(20:43):
right.
30% of the time you create asolid attachment with your
child.
It, the ratios are not, youdon't have to get it right.
All the.
Right.
I'm not saying go ahead and getit wrong.
I'm not saying unclip yourseatbelt.
I just wanna, like, we have somuch pressure as mothers, as
parents, to like always do it,right?
And with diabetic kids, how muchmore are we trying to always get
(21:05):
right?
And I feel like, let's take abreath.
There's lots of times we can getit wrong.
And what I, I'm a big believerin apologizing and acknowledging
to our children when we've mademistakes.
So I just wanna start.
Katie (21:17):
Mm-hmm.
Joanne (21:18):
yes, there is language that is helpful.
So I think language like, Oh, itmakes so much sense that you
feel that way.
Or I could imagine, right, thatwhen your brother knocks over
your castle, you know, likethat, that feels bad, right?
So any words that Or I can seethat you might feel like this.
Any language like that isinstantly joining, especially if
(21:41):
you are able to imagineaccurately into what your
child's experience is.
The other thing is to leave openthe asking.
And Katie, that's what you didwith your son, right?
You said, Hey, I'm noticing achange.
You normally are like this andI'm noticing this is something
going on for you.
Is there something I can helpwith?
Right?
So if you do imagine in.
To check in.
Am I getting that right?
(22:01):
Like, does that, you know, am Iin the right ballpark?
I think always checking in likethat can be really helpful.
And I think to suspend the needto solve the problem, right?
Because we often, I mean, that'sa certain kind of problem,
right?
Like when our, when our kids arenot boing, for example, we feel
a sense of panic that we have tosolve it right away.
(22:22):
And to, to suspend that evenjust for a few moments.
So that we can hear from them,right?
I think some of it is aboutmaking room to have the dialogue
to make space without jumping tothe solution.
Because if we're always solutionfocused, there's just not room
for our children to muck aroundand explore with us what their
(22:44):
experience is, and we wanna makeroom for some of that.
We obviously can't live thereall the time, but we do need to
make some room to hear from.
Katie (22:52):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Joanne (22:53):
I, I, think an operating word that's really helpful is
curiosity.
Like to be curious about what'shappening inside for them.
Does that, does that answer yourquestion, feel helpful?
Katie (23:04):
Yeah, I think just staying curious, asking
questions rather than justshutting that door, you know,
with a, So speaking of shuttingthe door, like what I feel like
I can think of one that I'veused before.
Talk about, you know, not alwaysdoing it perfectly, making
mistakes, but you know, justsaying like, you just need to
calm down or something likethat.
So what are some other.
Phrases that kind of like that,that you've heard parents use or
(23:26):
maybe you've used in the pastthat would maybe we should think
twice before saying them.
And again, I know we're notalways gonna do it perfectly and
we're gonna
Joanne (23:34):
Also there is limit setting, right?
That is all like I think ofparenting as a two-pronged task.
It's love and.
Right.
And so this validation piecefalls more on the love end,
although I do believe that thelast, like if the first step of
validation is that sentencestarter, like it makes sense
that you And the second step isbecause?
Because, because, And the thirdstep is the solution And the
(23:58):
support.
And the support could bepractical support, it could be
emotional support, it could belimit setting.
Right.
Our children need that.
Otherwise, they actually arefeeling around for it because
they wanna know what the edgesand boundaries are.
Children do better when theyknow what the boundaries are.
They don't do well when thereare no boundaries.
So it is reasonable sometimes tosay, You gotta calm down.
(24:20):
The question is, does your childhave the capacity to do it?
Katie (24:23):
Mm-hmm.
Joanne (24:24):
Because they might not, some kids don't have as much
capacity to know how to reachinto side themselves to get to
calm.
So they might need more supportfrom you to do that.
Right?
Like, let's listen to somemusic, let's, you know, sit and
pet the dog, go for a walk,whatever it is.
But kids, you know, have to,sometimes we have to provide
external scaffolding that theywill internalize over time,
(24:46):
Right?
That's sort of the task.
So I don't like to say it'sbetter language, right?
But other language might belike, okay, I get it.
That why you're so upset, right?
Because your kid, your brotherjust knocked over your castle
and your ice cream cone fell onthe ground.
And all of that is really,really distressing.
Let's take a few breaths.
So I'm not, I'm not saying thatwhat you're offering isn't a
(25:07):
problem.
It depends on what the childneeds and also what your
capacity is.
I mean, let's be real.
You have three kids, everyonecould be exploding at once and
you're like, you need to calmdown for a minute.
Katie (25:17):
Mm Oh yeah.
No, I just send everybody there.
When that happens, I just sendeverybody their rooms.
Joanne (25:21):
Yep.
Yep.
Katie (25:23):
Okay.
We, we all need to calm
Joanne (25:24):
time.
Yeah.
We need
Katie (25:25):
down.
Mm-hmm.
so I don't say anything that Idon't mean.
I think you will me to do thesame.
So let's just take 10, 15minutes and then we'll come
back.
Joanne (25:33):
Mm-hmm.
Well, and that's so good becausewhat you're saying to them is
there is space for.
Katie (25:39):
Mm-hmm.
Joanne (25:39):
breathe for a moment and, and I love that you say,
and we'll come back because thedistressing thing for a child
would be if something happens,right?
That's upsetting to them andnobody ever comes back, so
they're left alone with it.
If you say, Let's get a littlebit of space and we're gonna
come back, they know thatthere's spaciousness enough to
breathe there and then it stillgets held and supported that,
(26:00):
that feels really beautiful andimportant to.
Katie (26:03):
Hmm.
It does not always feel reallybeautiful and
Joanne (26:07):
I know that Katie, I know it firsthand.
Katie (26:10):
My least favorite.
This is not even diabetesrelated, but my least favorite.
Well, maybe not.
I would have to really thinkabout what my least favorite
thing about being a parent is.
But I, oh my gosh.
When my kids come to me and areblaming each other, like, so and
so did this and so and so, if Idid not actually see the
incident, I don't know.
I don't know who to believebecause I love my kids, but kids
can also lie to me or exaggerateto
Joanne (26:32):
Exaggerate.
Mm-hmm.
Katie (26:33):
Exaggerate.
Yeah, it's probably the betterword, but so I don't, again,
those, those are usually thesituations where I'm like, I'm,
I know.
I did not see the, whathappened?
I didn't hear it.
I didn't see it.
So, but it for sure feels likeeverybody's very angry and
frustrated right now.
So let's take 10 or 15 minutes.
You go to your room.
You go to your room.
I will sit here.
I just need to calm down for aminute.
I, I don't, I hate playing thereferee and I try not to do that
(26:56):
as
Joanne (26:57):
Yeah.
It's really hard to let themwork it out when they're so
young and they don't have anyskills to be generous with each
other for, there's no compromisewhen you're, whatever the ages
are that, you know, it's hard.
Katie (27:07):
Yeah.
That is, It's very hard.
Yeah.
Okay.
So what are some things likesome blocks or hindrances to
validation where people kind ofmaybe struggle to be able to
validate their kids' emotions ortheir own emotions?
Joanne (27:20):
Mm, those are different.
They're kids' emotions, theirown emotions.
So let me take their kids'emotions first, cuz I think
that's a little easier totackle.
I think there are few thingsthat can get in the way.
One is when you have a very illbehaved child and you are angry,
it is hard to love our childrenwhen we're pissed with them,
right when they're doing.
That are, that are gnarly,right?
(27:43):
So it's hard because it's hardto step into anyone's
perspective when they're notlikable, right?
So that's when it's helpful tohave a partner.
If you can get a little bit ofroom right, If your partner has
a slightly differentperspective, if you can step
back and try to imagine intotheir perspective that can, that
can be one moment that it'sreally hard.
Another moment that's hard, andI referenced this before, is
(28:05):
when You feel like your kid hasprivileges and they can't see
them?
Right.
So an example from my life is myson was diagnosed and he got
really angry, like he was up inmy face, this totally sweet
child.
I mean, there was one night hewas yelling inches from my face
and he actually was low and heneeded to treat that low and he
(28:26):
wouldn't.
He was just screaming at.
And actually I turned to myhusband and said, Okay, you need
to take this.
Like, I, I couldn't do itanymore.
I remember feeling like heshould have been grateful that
he had insulin cuz I had thisbig, broad perspective though,
like he could be dead and hewasn't.
And actually a fellow therapistsaid, not right now.
(28:48):
You know, we get these ideasthat our children should
understand something biggerabout their lives and
themselves, but we have tounderstand that they're still
having their own experience.
But that's a hard hurdle tojump.
And I've definitely worked withparents who are like, Why is she
complaining?
Right?
And they, and some, you know,like I had it harder, for
example, I walked uphill toschool both ways, and she walks
(29:11):
flat, whatever it is.
And so we can have a hard time.
Really wanting to feel intotheir experience, but it's still
their experience.
Right?
And so I think those are prettybig hurdles.
And then with ourselves, it'sthat is such a tricky question,
Katie, but I think, you know, itreally depends on, Like who I'm
talking to, but I think thatpeople have a hard time.
(29:34):
Diabetes makes us feelvulnerable and burdensome.
And so we have a hard time kindof Reaching out for the support
that we need and feeling likeit's valid and legitimate.
I think like I don't hear thatin you, but I do hear that in
many, many newly diagnosedfamilies, like they don't wanna
burden other people.
And so there's something in thatthat we're not validating the
(29:56):
work, the need for support.
All the things that are justhuman needs that we have.
I think that adults can spend alot of time invalidating their
own experience, and it can comefrom a lot of different places,
but I would say from a place ofoften shame about not feeling
adequate enough.
Katie (30:13):
Mm.
I I feel like the second hurdleyou talked about spoke to me the
most for both my kids and for mepersonally.
Just the one about you know,kind of like feeling like why
the, the bigger picture onewhere you, like, why, why are
you complaining?
Like there's starving kids in,in, you know, other countries
And you have a great life andyou know, cuz I, I do fall into
(30:33):
that trap of being like, Oh mygosh, seriously, you're
complaining about this?
Like, you're, you have it sogood and you don't even realize
it.
So that can be a hurdle for me.
And then even within my owninternal dialogue, that can be a
hurdle for me of like, you know,Katie, why, why are you
complaining about this?
Like,
Joanne (30:48):
Right?
Yeah.
Katie (30:50):
you know, just suck it up.
You're, you, you have a greatlife.
You have so many things to be,you know grateful for.
So I can, I.
Joanne (30:57):
Mm-hmm.
Katie (30:58):
I can I struggle with that on, on both friends,
Joanne (31:00):
Mm-hmm.
Katie (31:02):
Yeah.
Joanne (31:02):
super consistent, right?
Like sometimes the way we cometowards our children is the
place that we're most challengedinternally for ourselves.
Right.
And that's what comes forwardbecause we're, we're struggling
with it for ourselves, right?
And we can always, there'salways someone who's worse off,
right?
There's a war in Ukraine.
Those people have noelectricity, no medication
access, no blah, blah, blah.
(31:22):
Why are you complaining thatyou've got this cereal and your
brother got that cereal?
Like, you know, we reallystruggle.
And that's real.
You know, there's a concept inpsychotherapy of Maslow's
hierarchy of needs, right?
That you know you know, first, Idon't remember exactly what it
is.
You could Google it, but youknow, first you have need for
food and shelter.
Then you have need for, andthen, you know, end up at the
(31:43):
top of that pyramid is like,need for self fulfillment.
It doesn't, change ourrelationship to those
challenges, though.
They're all the same.
It's just a different questionof like where you are on that
hierarchy of.
Katie (31:56):
Interesting.
I really appreciate what yousaid about, you know, Those
perceived or those struggles,even though they might be higher
up on the hierarchy, hierarchyof needs, is that what you call
it?
Um, They're still real andthey're still present and they
still deserve to be addressed.
You know, even if it's not asseemingly severe as, you know,
(32:18):
I, I don't have food and waterand shelter and things like
that.
Joanne (32:21):
Absolutely
Katie (32:22):
I think I have, I remember that.
I have to remember that as.
Friend a lot just, you know,just with my friends, you know,
cuz because their struggles, youknow, they might be going
through this struggle that I'mnot going through and I'm
obviously over here goingthrough whatever struggle I'm
currently dealing with and Ihave to remind myself that like,
Okay.
My struggle might seem bigger oryou know, more important I guess
(32:43):
to me because it's my life andit's very real for me, but I
need to remember that theirs tothem is just as important and,
Deserves to be recognized aswell
Joanne (32:54):
you're talking about something actually super
important for diabetic parents.
For parents of diabetic kids.
I never know quite how to saythat cuz I don't like diabetic
so much, but Because we arestruggling so much, right?
We have many more sleeplessnights.
We have a lot more stress aboutour kids' safety, physical
safety in a way that the averageparent or the parent of, you
(33:15):
know, even you with yournon-type one kids have less
stress about those things thanyou do with your daughter.
But the question is how to holdthat with our.
Katie (33:23):
Mm.
Joanne (33:24):
Right.
And that's hard because often wefeel not seen by them, right?
That they're not leaning farenough into our experience.
And that's tricky.
And then there can be someresentment.
Like if I have friends who sayto me, I'm so tired.
There's a little conversationthat goes on in my head about
trying to stand down.
My idea of tired, right?
Because for years I was likemassively sleep deprived, cuz I
(33:47):
didn't have any of thetechnology that I have now.
So I'm not as massively sleepdeprived as I used to be.
But you know, back in those daysif someone said they were tired,
I felt like biting their headoff, right?
So I think you're talking aboutsomething really important and I
think it takes a deeperfriendship to be able to talk
that stuff.
Katie (34:05):
Mm-hmm.
Joanne (34:06):
to be able to say, Hey, I'm needing this from you.
Or Hey, you know, sometimes whenyou say that, I just want you to
know that I, that I toggle to ahard place Right.
Those are deep friends for us tobe able to say those things, but
that's real.
I think as type one parents,that is very real.
Katie (34:20):
Yeah.
No, I would agree.
And we were, we're gonna do anentire episode on relationships
and how those relationships canbe stressed when you have a Type
one diagnosis.
So we'll probably hit on that alittle bit more I would imagine.
Before we sign off for today, isthere anything else about
validation that we didn't hitthat you think might be
important for listeners to hear?
And you can say, No,
Joanne (34:39):
Yeah.
No, I don't think so.
I mean, I guess the only thingthat comes to mind is, is, and I
sort of pointed to it already,is like, don't knock yourself
up.
Don't, don't beat yourself upfor.
Not getting it right.
Right.
Like you're practicing your, thefact, anyone listening to this,
anyone thinking about this isjust doing such a beautiful job
of moving themselves along intheir parenting journey.
(35:00):
And we try and we fail and wetry again and we talk to
somebody about how we failed andhow to make it better.
And just keep trying, keepplaying with your parenting
tools and like this is one of.
Katie (35:11):
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Well thank you so much Joanne.
So many such great advice.
I really love talking with you.
I feel, I feel very fortunatecause I do feel like I get my
own little mini therapy session.
Joanne (35:21):
I'm so glad you feel that way, Katie.
I, it's a delight to be withyou.
Thanks.
Katie (35:24):
Yes.
Oh, you're very welcome.
Yeah.
I feel like this podcast hasbeen very cathartic for me just
to kind of talk everythingthrough and hear everybody's
thoughts and opinions.
It's definitely helpful for mysoul, for sure.
Joanne (35:36):
Good
Katie (35:36):
All right.
Well, have a fabulous day and Iknow we will be talking again
soon.
Joanne (35:39):
Thanks, Katie.
Katie (35:44):
All right.
You guys, that is it for ourshow today.
I hope you enjoyed that.
Awesome chat with Joanne.
Be sure to check out my otherepisode with Joanne that just
came out last week.
That's episode 88.
On anxiety.
And dealing with the anxietythat comes along with being the
parent of a type one diabetic.
Next week's episode.
And the episode after that,we'll both also be with Joanne.
(36:07):
I'm so excited to have her backon.
And again, be sure to check outher website, diabetes.
Sweet talk.com.
All right, you guys have afabulous week.
I will chat with you soon, butuntil then stay calm and bolus
on.
Bye.
This is episode 89 of the sugar mamas podcast.
And today I am back withpsychotherapist and fellow T one
D mama Joann, Rob.
Be sure to check out Joanne'swebsite, diabetes, sweet
talk.com.
There you can find a link toregister for one of her courses.
Joanne is passionate abouthelping other parents and
(00:22):
caregivers of type one diabeticsdeal with the emotional.
And relational challenge thatcome along with managing type
one.
She offers several courses thatdo just that.
And Joanne recently started apodcast, which I am absolutely
loving.
Called sweet talk for parents ofkids with type one diabetes.
And if you want to have yourquestions answered by Joanne.
(00:45):
Visit the website, diabetes.
Sweet talk.com.
And click on the purple bannerat the top of the page to submit
your question.
You can be a guest on Joanneshow.
It can all be done anonymously.
But you will get to chat withJoanne and have her answer your
question.
You guys it's like a minitherapy session.
And we all need one of those.
Okay.
The topic of today's episode isvalidation.
(01:08):
What is it?
And how can we do it?
Well, Let's get started.
You're listening to the sugarmamas podcast, a show designed
for moms and caregivers of typeone diabetics here.
You'll find a community oflike-minded people who are
striving daily to keep theirkids safe, happy, and healthy in
(01:31):
the ever-changing world of typeone.
I'm your host and fellow T one Dmom, Katie Roseboro.
Before we get started.
I need you to know that nothingyou hear on the sugar mamas
podcast should be consideredmedical advice.
Please be safe, be smart, andalways consult your physician
before making changes to the wayyou manage type one diabetes.
(01:54):
Thanks.
Good morning, or it might not bemorning when you're listening to
this, but hello everybody.
I'm back today with Joanne Rob.
And um, just as a reminder,Joanne is a psychotherapist.
She's also a type one mom.
She has two kids with type onediabetes.
One is already grown and out ofthe house.
(02:16):
And one is, is is he still incollege or is he even done with
Joanne (02:19):
No, he's done with college.
He's actually home for a minuteand he's moving to Spain.
Katie (02:24):
Woo.
That's great.
And then your daughter with typeone is in high school.
Joanne (02:27):
Yeah, freshman
Katie (02:28):
Okay.
She's a freshman in high
Joanne (02:30):
and then I don't wanna forget that I have another
child,
Katie (02:33):
I know this other kid
Joanne (02:35):
you know that other child
Katie (02:38):
I know.
And I'm sure that you love thatother child just as much as you.
Joanne (02:44):
some days more Katie, but don't tell anyone else that.
Katie (02:48):
Anybody except for the listeners that are gonna be
tuning in take that you want.
Let's see.
You mostly deal with theemotional, mental, relational
aspects of having to deal andmanage, deal with and manage
Type one diabetes on a dailybasis and your practice.
And you recently started apodcast, which I am personally
(03:09):
loving.
It's called Sweet Talk, right?
Diabetes Sweet.
Joanne (03:12):
It's called Sweet Talk for parents of kids with Type
one Diabetes.
Katie (03:16):
talk with parents of kids for type one.
I just listened to your mostrecent episode this morning,
actually
Joanne (03:20):
Oh, thank you.
Katie (03:21):
chatted with you.
It was a good one.
It was about elementary age kidsand just ways to share with
teachers and friends aboutdiabetes if they feel
comfortable.
Anyway, it's a good one.
Listen in.
I'll put a link in the shownotes for everybody.
And just a quick plug becausehonestly, I, I'm really loving
your podcast and if you want tohave your type one questions
(03:41):
answered, type one questions ina, again, kind of like along the
lines of like, mental struggles,emotional struggles, relational
struggle, struggles answered byJoanne.
You can go to her website.
I'll put a link in the shownotes to that as well.
And there's a banner at the topof the page where you can click.
And submit your question and youcan have a conversation with
(04:01):
Joanne and she will answer yourquestions for you, which I mean,
guys, it's like, it's like athree, a free mini therapy
session.
Who wouldn't want that?
Right?
So check it out.
Joanne (04:10):
Thanks, Katie.
Katie (04:11):
Oh, you're very welcome.
Today's topic is kind of, I feellike it's kind of a buzzword
right now, just in like themental health arena.
But it's validation.
Maybe it's not a buzzword, butI'm only becoming aware of it
within the past couple of years.
But it's, it's validation.
So we're gonna be talking aboutvalidation today.
So I guess we should just startwith Joanne.
Would you just tell listenerswhat that means?
(04:33):
What is valid?
Joanne (04:34):
That's such a good question.
I feel like I should pull up mynotes.
So I should give a more officiallike Webster style definition,
but essentially validation ishelping a person to feel like
their concerns if we're thinkingabout emotional validation, that
their concerns have legitimacyin your eyes.
Right, that their emotionalstate has legitimacy.
(04:54):
one of the things I find, Katie,that can be hard for people when
thinking about validation isthey feel.
Validation means they'reagreeing with their child and
sometimes we don't agree withour children, but that's
actually not what validation is.
Validation is being able to seefrom their perspective where
your child or your partner oryour who, your sister, like
(05:16):
whoever you use it with, youknow where they're coming from
and legitimize their experienceof what they're, you know, how
they're feeling about.
Katie (05:25):
Yeah.
I've always thought of it as away to kind of, to to be able to
communicate, like I see you andI see what you're going through
and.
I like you exactly like yousaid, Like I might not agree
with you completely, or I mighthave dealt with this in a
different way, but I, I canunderstand why you might be
feeling that this way.
Is that correct?
Joanne (05:46):
Yeah, that's basically correct.
I, I do have a bit of a formulaI teach, which we can talk about
later about like how to do agood validation and I would
never insert the part that says,I don't agree with you but a
validation is exactly that,Katie.
It's, it's helping people feelgot, it's helping people feel
like you really see theirperspective.
Absolutely.
Katie (06:06):
Okay.
And I mean, why?
So just kind of verbalize whythat's so important for our kids
and not only our kids, but forus.
Cuz we have emotions too, asparents.
Joanne (06:16):
Absolutely.
When someone feels seen andvalidated, when they feel joined
in that way, they generallystand down.
So what do I mean by that?
Oftentimes we take hold ofsomething emotionally and we
feel like, I think of a dog witha bone.
Like we can't get it, We can'tseparate from it in any way.
And when someone feels validatedand seen, it just, it's a
(06:39):
natural human response to.
Because you feel joined, right?
We, we feel attached to kind ofnegative responses to things
often when we don't feel likeanyone understands what our
experience is.
So we kind of have to dig inwith the behaviors to get,
because that's our strategy toget seen and heard, right?
(07:00):
So, if we can validatesomebody's experience, often
they stand down and they, can hetake in then what we are
offering, what we do need, howwe do need to move them, or they
can take in our perspective, Imean, it's not rapid fire,
right?
Like if you're in a fight withyour spouse and you say, Yeah, I
can see why you, whatever.
but here's my perspective, thatwon't work so well.
(07:22):
But if over time you arevalidating somebody's experience
and perspective, they just willtrust you more and take in
better what it is you have tooffer.
Katie (07:30):
Okay.
Maybe this will come with theformula that we'll talk about in
a little bit, but are you sayingthat at first it might be a good
idea rather than to say, Youknow, I, I see where you're
coming from, but like, leave outthe, but for now, like, kind of
build up that relationship ofvalidation, so to speak um,
before you start to interjectyour own thoughts and opinions.
Joanne (07:51):
So you're jumping right to the, The problem we all have,
like when I teach validation,which I sometimes do a free
validation webinar, so if folksare interested, they can just
sign up for my newsletter andthey'll find out whenever that
comes next.
I actually don't know when Ihave it scheduled.
When I teach it, I say, Youknow, your kid comes to you and
says, I can't do my chores.
You say, I totally understandthat you're feeling very busy
(08:13):
with your homework and you can'tdo them, and what's the next
word you're gonna say?
And everybody knows that thenext word is, but
Katie (08:19):
Mm-hmm.
Joanne (08:19):
So when I teach validation, we, Well, there
actually two things.
When I teach validation as atool, we switch the butt to.
We actually slide over thesolution part and we do a lot
more deep validating
Katie (08:33):
Mm-hmm.
Joanne (08:34):
in your fast everyday life when you're moving quickly.
The tricky part is to, or the,the trick sorry, is to change
the butt to an and.
Right.
I know you can't mow the lawn.
Cuz you have a lot of homework.
I know you feel like you can'tmow lawn cuz you have a lot of
homework and the lawn actuallystill needs to be mowed.
Katie (08:51):
Mm-hmm.
Joanne (08:52):
because, but erases the whole first half of the
sentence.
Instantly it just says, whateveryou had to say is no longer
valid.
I'm just, I just took an eraserto it.
And so when you change it to,and you say, We're holding both
of these things, and it becomesa dialogue like, how do we hold
both of these things, right?
How do we support both of thesethings that you've had a lot of
(09:13):
homework, you're feelingstressed and don't wanna mow the
lawn, and the lawn still needsto be owed and it's your
respons.
Katie (09:19):
Would it be good to follow up with, so how do you
want to work through this to youknow, get the lawn mode, but
also make time for your homeworkand things like that?
Like open it up to aconversation of, okay, how can
we figure this out?
You know, because you'refrustrated and the lawn needs to
be you're frustrated, stressout, and the lawn needs to be
(09:41):
mowed.
Joanne (09:41):
So that example implies a child who's old enough to do
that kind of reasoning, right?
And yes, I might do that.
I might also just set a limit,right?
Like that kid, that lawn mowingkid is, might not be the best
example in a diabetes world, butwe can think of other examples
for sure.
But that lawn mowing kid isstruggling with time manage.
And struggling with priorities.
(10:02):
Like, my guess is your 14 yearold did not spend all week doing
their homework.
They also were on TikTok andthey were texting their friends
and they were doing all thethings right?
So you're holding the line as aparent there and helping them
come up with a solution for howthey can make it work.
Right?
Unless maybe they were sick allweek and have a lot of homework,
so you're feel like, Okay, we'llgive you a free pass.
You know?
I have no idea.
(10:23):
But in a validation tool when Iteach it in a bigger way, and we
should think of a more poignantexample than lawn mowing, Why
don't we start there and then Ican use that to sort of give a
strategy.
Katie (10:33):
Okay.
I mean, feel free to critique myexample, but let's say there's
a, a tween or a teenager orreally a kid of any age that is
forgetting and I put that in airquotes to bolus for meals or
just flat out not doing itbecause they don't want to,
because they're with theirfriends and they just rather not
have type one diabetes.
So, you know, you.
(10:54):
Engage them in a conversationabout it.
They get very defensive,emotional you know, if, if we're
lucky, maybe they would talk tous about how they feel
frustrated and angry aboutdiabetes because they don't have
to deal with it.
How would you approach thatsituation?
Joanne (11:08):
So I wanna back up to before like the validation needs
to come at the front end of theconversation.
Right.
So.
I always ha my personal favoritesentence starter is, it makes
sense, It makes sense thatyou're not boing, you know,
Kelly, because and this iswhere, this is where we slide
over our problem solving, right?
We, we move to be causes.
(11:28):
And what we have to do isimagine into this child's mind
and life and how they're tryingto escape from pain.
Or depending on the situation,work with their best intention.
Like nobody is coming from aplace of being ill intentioned
ever really.
I mean occasionally, right?
But it's pretty rare.
Most of us are doing our bestall of the time.
(11:50):
And so if we imagine that forour type one kid who's not
boing, what do we imagine andwhat is poignant?
It's not just diabetes is hard,right?
Because they know that alreadythey can dismiss you.
So it would be something like,Hey, sweet.
it makes so much sense thatyou're not boing for lunch.
I really get that because itfeels like you're outing
yourself all the time, right?
(12:11):
Because you're with your friendsand you don't want to have
diabetes.
And because I'm making up astory here because you just got
diagnosed, right?
And this was not anything youwanted.
And it feels really heavy andburdensome.
Right?
And this is where we shouldtoggle and we, you and I both
know.
That it's really important foryour health to get that insulin
(12:32):
in.
So let's think together abouthow we might be able to make one
change.
That's, that would be a morecomplete validation.
Right.
So the, because is likesometimes when I teach this to
parents, I encourage them towrite it down, like to, to
strategize the solution.
And strategize, sorry, thevalidation, but strategize like,
what is your child experiencing?
(12:52):
What is causing them so muchpain and difficulty?
And then turn that into a few,because statements, because your
kid will really feel seen.
And will they start boingmagically?
No, but they're gonna, you'regonna continue that quiet drum
beat and they're gonna feel seenand they're gonna eventually
internalize how important it isto take care of the.
Katie (13:13):
Yeah, no, that's great advice.
How do you think we shouldgently approach our kids when we
do start to notice some of thosepatterns of just them being
neglectful in their diabetesmanagement?
You know, if they're, if they'rea little bit older,
Joanne (13:24):
Yeah.
So I think validation ishelpful.
It's funny because my nextnewsletter, which will be out,
you know, you could again go tomy podcast cuz it's, it's the
blog postings it.
My next one that's coming out isabout change because I think one
of the things we forget withdiabetes is we get tugged by
every moment.
Right?
We have to, we have to payattention to this.
(13:46):
And then the next number, andthen the next number after that.
But we kinda lose sight of thelong term, the big picture when
we're doing that, we can't holdboth perspectives as easily.
So in terms of teens, first ofall, what I wanna say is it's
normal.
Like if you look at the data onthis, the data is that or the
data are that
Katie (14:07):
I don't know.
Joanne (14:08):
I always get that wrong.
Katie (14:09):
The.
data be, I'm not sure.
Joanne (14:11):
Exactly the data be that when kids hit their teen years,
their average A1C starts reallygo spiking up and it stays up
for a while.
And I'm not in any way saying,Go ahead, unclip your seatbelt.
These kids are just gonna do it.
It's like saying kids drink, youknow?
No, it's not like you're notgonna message, this isn't safe.
(14:31):
I don't approve of this.
Right.
All the things.
But you also have a strategywith them.
Like if you do.
Please call me.
I will pick you up.
Right?
Whatever yours family strategyis like.
You're not stupid, you.
you don't just let'em go andclose your eyes.
And so it's a little bit likethat with diabetes.
You keep the seatbelt clipped,you keep talking to them about
it.
(14:52):
You keep the relationship strongenough so that dialogue is
reasonable, right?
So it's not a fight.
And you have some expectationthat there's gonna be a period
where it's really hard.
Because of course it's hard cuzthey're teenagers and they have
other things to do in theirlives that are not diabetes.
Right.
It's hard to work it all in.
So it's a both and it's a bothlike talking to them about it,
(15:14):
recognizing and recognizing thatit's normal.
And I think I have, my mainmessage with so much is keep the
relationship strong so that youcan still have these
conversations.
Katie (15:26):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
That's good.
I know.
I try to be on the lookout forchanges in behavior with my
kids.
Because most kids don't justcome straight out and say, I'm
really angry about this, or I'mreally worried about this.
I just, I look for ways inwhich, in which they're acting
differently.
Like my older son is super.
(15:47):
For the most part, super social,very laid back, you know?
And you know, there, there was atime in his life where he just
was all of a sudden just gotreally short tempered and was
snapping at his siblings moreand snapping at me more.
And anyway, and you know, I, Ikind of went to him rather than
being like, What is wrong withyou?
Like, what is going on?
Just saying, Hey, I noticed thatyou are.
(16:09):
Acting, you've been acting thisway, and that's not like you, I
mean, you've always been this,this type of kid and this type
of kid.
And so I'm just wondering like,is everything okay?
Is there something going on thatyou might be stressed out about
or frustrated with?
And then he, he, he was able totalk to me, you know, about what
was truly bothering him.
So I, that's kind of, I have myradar up for that, like, What's,
(16:32):
what's different about theirbehavior that isn't consistent
with how they normally, withtheir baseline,
Joanne (16:37):
Yep.
I think that's beautiful andexactly right.
I also think that sometimes wecome to our kids and say, Hey,
what's going on?
And they say nothing and that'sokay too.
Right.
You can't expect that every timeyou're gonna hit it out of the
park.
And, and as kids get into theirteam years, they may or may not,
like I've had both scenarioswith my kids, but they, they
(16:59):
might.
Wanna share.
I still think it's important tolay the groundwork.
I am here, I am available andyou're kind of planting the
seed.
There's a, man named Michaelrra.
I really like his work.
He's a parenting, he's written afew parenting books and one
thing he said that really stuckwith me is you can ask your kid
like, Do you wanna do somethingwith me?
You can try to join with yourkid in lots of ways, a hundred
(17:20):
times and out of a hundred, youshould expect they say yes
twice.
Those are pretty, Terrible odds,and they feel bad as a parent,
but with some teenage kids,that's true.
Right?
So I think that what you didwith your son is absolutely a
hundred percent perfect, andwhen he's 15, he might blow you
off.
(17:41):
But eventually, I truly believethat eventually kids come around
and they know that it's safeterritory when we keep opening
ourselves up and makingourselves available to.
Katie (17:52):
Yeah.
And that's hard to do,especially when you're tired at
the end of the day,
Joanne (17:55):
You got it Katie.
It's really hard to do and I,you know, I'm really good at
saying this.
What?
Katie (18:01):
That's when they wanna talk to you at the end of the
day.
Joanne (18:03):
Oh, that's right.
They're like junior vampires.
Yeah.
I totally agree.
And, and also we lose ourpatients right?
With like my 14 year olddaughter is definitely giving me
a run for my money right nowaround this.
And it's hard for me to keeptaking a loving.
Like, so I wanna acknowledgethat I can say this, and I also
know how hard it can be to do.
Katie (18:23):
Mm-hmm.
What are some of the, in yourpractice, kind of the ripple
effects long term ripple effectsof kids that maybe weren't
validated in their feelings andemotions as, as a kid?
I mean, how does that sometimestranslate into adulthood or how
they cope with things?
Joanne (18:42):
So that's a real therapy question.
Like I have patients in mypractice who never felt
validated, in fact, felt shamedabout what they came forward
with, right?
Because sometimes we do thatwith our kids.
We're annoyed that they'rehaving an emotional, what feels
like a lot of emotion and toomuch emotion for us.
There can be that feeling oflike, I didn't do this.
(19:05):
You have a nice life.
Why are you complaining so much?
There can be a lot of thatfeeling inside of us.
And I have patients in mypractice who feel so much shame
about their own emotion thatthey kind of either shut down,
right and they're not availableto their partner, to their kids,
to themselves.
Or they get really like, again,like a dog with a bone kind of
(19:26):
insistent in a way that's reallyRight.
So what I would say is, it's akind of sophisticated answer,
but ultimately what it is, isthat in those moments where we,
our self talk says that we'renot legitimate, Right, because
we got messaging that what we'reexperiencing is not, or how
we're behaving is notlegitimate, and what we're
experiencing is not legitimatein those moments.
(19:47):
We're kind of not our bestselves and therefore we have
trouble relating to otherpeople, right?
We have trouble relating to ourwork.
We have trouble, whatever therelational piece is, but it has
a ripple effect in that way.
Does that answer your question?
Does that make sense?
Katie (20:01):
Yeah.
I was just curious.
I was just curious.
You're sure that can manifest inmany different ways, yeah, so I
mean, I definitely wanna be moreaware of the words that I say
and how I say them.
So maybe let's, let's talk aboutthe formula that you mentioned
in the beginning.
And I know you know, just how,how do you recommend we kind.
Use our words in the right way.
Joanne (20:22):
Mm-hmm.
.Mm-hmm.
.So, I wanna back up a secondbecause.
There's this concept of a goodenough, it actually came up as a
good enough mother, but a goodenough parent.
And, and we worry likethoughtful parents worry a lot
about how we say it, how we doit, Are we getting it right?
What's fascinating is that theresearch shows that you get it
(20:43):
right.
30% of the time you create asolid attachment with your
child.
It, the ratios are not, youdon't have to get it right.
All the.
Right.
I'm not saying go ahead and getit wrong.
I'm not saying unclip yourseatbelt.
I just wanna, like, we have somuch pressure as mothers, as
parents, to like always do it,right?
And with diabetic kids, how muchmore are we trying to always get
(21:05):
right?
And I feel like, let's take abreath.
There's lots of times we can getit wrong.
And what I, I'm a big believerin apologizing and acknowledging
to our children when we've mademistakes.
So I just wanna start.
Katie (21:17):
Mm-hmm.
Joanne (21:18):
yes, there is language that is helpful.
So I think language like, Oh, itmakes so much sense that you
feel that way.
Or I could imagine, right, thatwhen your brother knocks over
your castle, you know, likethat, that feels bad, right?
So any words that Or I can seethat you might feel like this.
Any language like that isinstantly joining, especially if
(21:41):
you are able to imagineaccurately into what your
child's experience is.
The other thing is to leave openthe asking.
And Katie, that's what you didwith your son, right?
You said, Hey, I'm noticing achange.
You normally are like this andI'm noticing this is something
going on for you.
Is there something I can helpwith?
Right?
So if you do imagine in.
To check in.
Am I getting that right?
(22:01):
Like, does that, you know, am Iin the right ballpark?
I think always checking in likethat can be really helpful.
And I think to suspend the needto solve the problem, right?
Because we often, I mean, that'sa certain kind of problem,
right?
Like when our, when our kids arenot boing, for example, we feel
a sense of panic that we have tosolve it right away.
(22:22):
And to, to suspend that evenjust for a few moments.
So that we can hear from them,right?
I think some of it is aboutmaking room to have the dialogue
to make space without jumping tothe solution.
Because if we're always solutionfocused, there's just not room
for our children to muck aroundand explore with us what their
(22:44):
experience is, and we wanna makeroom for some of that.
We obviously can't live thereall the time, but we do need to
make some room to hear from.
Katie (22:52):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Joanne (22:53):
I, I, think an operating word that's really helpful is
curiosity.
Like to be curious about what'shappening inside for them.
Does that, does that answer yourquestion, feel helpful?
Katie (23:04):
Yeah, I think just staying curious, asking
questions rather than justshutting that door, you know,
with a, So speaking of shuttingthe door, like what I feel like
I can think of one that I'veused before.
Talk about, you know, not alwaysdoing it perfectly, making
mistakes, but you know, justsaying like, you just need to
calm down or something likethat.
So what are some other.
Phrases that kind of like that,that you've heard parents use or
(23:26):
maybe you've used in the pastthat would maybe we should think
twice before saying them.
And again, I know we're notalways gonna do it perfectly and
we're gonna
Joanne (23:34):
Also there is limit setting, right?
That is all like I think ofparenting as a two-pronged task.
It's love and.
Right.
And so this validation piecefalls more on the love end,
although I do believe that thelast, like if the first step of
validation is that sentencestarter, like it makes sense
that you And the second step isbecause?
Because, because, And the thirdstep is the solution And the
(23:58):
support.
And the support could bepractical support, it could be
emotional support, it could belimit setting.
Right.
Our children need that.
Otherwise, they actually arefeeling around for it because
they wanna know what the edgesand boundaries are.
Children do better when theyknow what the boundaries are.
They don't do well when thereare no boundaries.
So it is reasonable sometimes tosay, You gotta calm down.
(24:20):
The question is, does your childhave the capacity to do it?
Katie (24:23):
Mm-hmm.
Joanne (24:24):
Because they might not, some kids don't have as much
capacity to know how to reachinto side themselves to get to
calm.
So they might need more supportfrom you to do that.
Right?
Like, let's listen to somemusic, let's, you know, sit and
pet the dog, go for a walk,whatever it is.
But kids, you know, have to,sometimes we have to provide
external scaffolding that theywill internalize over time,
(24:46):
Right?
That's sort of the task.
So I don't like to say it'sbetter language, right?
But other language might belike, okay, I get it.
That why you're so upset, right?
Because your kid, your brotherjust knocked over your castle
and your ice cream cone fell onthe ground.
And all of that is really,really distressing.
Let's take a few breaths.
So I'm not, I'm not saying thatwhat you're offering isn't a
(25:07):
problem.
It depends on what the childneeds and also what your
capacity is.
I mean, let's be real.
You have three kids, everyonecould be exploding at once and
you're like, you need to calmdown for a minute.
Katie (25:17):
Mm Oh yeah.
No, I just send everybody there.
When that happens, I just sendeverybody their rooms.
Joanne (25:21):
Yep.
Yep.
Katie (25:23):
Okay.
We, we all need to calm
Joanne (25:24):
time.
Yeah.
We need
Katie (25:25):
down.
Mm-hmm.
so I don't say anything that Idon't mean.
I think you will me to do thesame.
So let's just take 10, 15minutes and then we'll come
back.
Joanne (25:33):
Mm-hmm.
Well, and that's so good becausewhat you're saying to them is
there is space for.
Katie (25:39):
Mm-hmm.
Joanne (25:39):
breathe for a moment and, and I love that you say,
and we'll come back because thedistressing thing for a child
would be if something happens,right?
That's upsetting to them andnobody ever comes back, so
they're left alone with it.
If you say, Let's get a littlebit of space and we're gonna
come back, they know thatthere's spaciousness enough to
breathe there and then it stillgets held and supported that,
(26:00):
that feels really beautiful andimportant to.
Katie (26:03):
Hmm.
It does not always feel reallybeautiful and
Joanne (26:07):
I know that Katie, I know it firsthand.
Katie (26:10):
My least favorite.
This is not even diabetesrelated, but my least favorite.
Well, maybe not.
I would have to really thinkabout what my least favorite
thing about being a parent is.
But I, oh my gosh.
When my kids come to me and areblaming each other, like, so and
so did this and so and so, if Idid not actually see the
incident, I don't know.
I don't know who to believebecause I love my kids, but kids
can also lie to me or exaggerateto
Joanne (26:32):
Exaggerate.
Mm-hmm.
Katie (26:33):
Exaggerate.
Yeah, it's probably the betterword, but so I don't, again,
those, those are usually thesituations where I'm like, I'm,
I know.
I did not see the, whathappened?
I didn't hear it.
I didn't see it.
So, but it for sure feels likeeverybody's very angry and
frustrated right now.
So let's take 10 or 15 minutes.
You go to your room.
You go to your room.
I will sit here.
I just need to calm down for aminute.
I, I don't, I hate playing thereferee and I try not to do that
(26:56):
as
Joanne (26:57):
Yeah.
It's really hard to let themwork it out when they're so
young and they don't have anyskills to be generous with each
other for, there's no compromisewhen you're, whatever the ages
are that, you know, it's hard.
Katie (27:07):
Yeah.
That is, It's very hard.
Yeah.
Okay.
So what are some things likesome blocks or hindrances to
validation where people kind ofmaybe struggle to be able to
validate their kids' emotions ortheir own emotions?
Joanne (27:20):
Mm, those are different.
They're kids' emotions, theirown emotions.
So let me take their kids'emotions first, cuz I think
that's a little easier totackle.
I think there are few thingsthat can get in the way.
One is when you have a very illbehaved child and you are angry,
it is hard to love our childrenwhen we're pissed with them,
right when they're doing.
That are, that are gnarly,right?
(27:43):
So it's hard because it's hardto step into anyone's
perspective when they're notlikable, right?
So that's when it's helpful tohave a partner.
If you can get a little bit ofroom right, If your partner has
a slightly differentperspective, if you can step
back and try to imagine intotheir perspective that can, that
can be one moment that it'sreally hard.
Another moment that's hard, andI referenced this before, is
(28:05):
when You feel like your kid hasprivileges and they can't see
them?
Right.
So an example from my life is myson was diagnosed and he got
really angry, like he was up inmy face, this totally sweet
child.
I mean, there was one night hewas yelling inches from my face
and he actually was low and heneeded to treat that low and he
(28:26):
wouldn't.
He was just screaming at.
And actually I turned to myhusband and said, Okay, you need
to take this.
Like, I, I couldn't do itanymore.
I remember feeling like heshould have been grateful that
he had insulin cuz I had thisbig, broad perspective though,
like he could be dead and hewasn't.
And actually a fellow therapistsaid, not right now.
(28:48):
You know, we get these ideasthat our children should
understand something biggerabout their lives and
themselves, but we have tounderstand that they're still
having their own experience.
But that's a hard hurdle tojump.
And I've definitely worked withparents who are like, Why is she
complaining?
Right?
And they, and some, you know,like I had it harder, for
example, I walked uphill toschool both ways, and she walks
(29:11):
flat, whatever it is.
And so we can have a hard time.
Really wanting to feel intotheir experience, but it's still
their experience.
Right?
And so I think those are prettybig hurdles.
And then with ourselves, it'sthat is such a tricky question,
Katie, but I think, you know, itreally depends on, Like who I'm
talking to, but I think thatpeople have a hard time.
(29:34):
Diabetes makes us feelvulnerable and burdensome.
And so we have a hard time kindof Reaching out for the support
that we need and feeling likeit's valid and legitimate.
I think like I don't hear thatin you, but I do hear that in
many, many newly diagnosedfamilies, like they don't wanna
burden other people.
And so there's something in thatthat we're not validating the
(29:56):
work, the need for support.
All the things that are justhuman needs that we have.
I think that adults can spend alot of time invalidating their
own experience, and it can comefrom a lot of different places,
but I would say from a place ofoften shame about not feeling
adequate enough.
Katie (30:13):
Mm.
I I feel like the second hurdleyou talked about spoke to me the
most for both my kids and for mepersonally.
Just the one about you know,kind of like feeling like why
the, the bigger picture onewhere you, like, why, why are
you complaining?
Like there's starving kids in,in, you know, other countries
And you have a great life andyou know, cuz I, I do fall into
(30:33):
that trap of being like, Oh mygosh, seriously, you're
complaining about this?
Like, you're, you have it sogood and you don't even realize
it.
So that can be a hurdle for me.
And then even within my owninternal dialogue, that can be a
hurdle for me of like, you know,Katie, why, why are you
complaining about this?
Like,
Joanne (30:48):
Right?
Yeah.
Katie (30:50):
you know, just suck it up.
You're, you, you have a greatlife.
You have so many things to be,you know grateful for.
So I can, I.
Joanne (30:57):
Mm-hmm.
Katie (30:58):
I can I struggle with that on, on both friends,
Joanne (31:00):
Mm-hmm.
Katie (31:02):
Yeah.
Joanne (31:02):
super consistent, right?
Like sometimes the way we cometowards our children is the
place that we're most challengedinternally for ourselves.
Right.
And that's what comes forwardbecause we're, we're struggling
with it for ourselves, right?
And we can always, there'salways someone who's worse off,
right?
There's a war in Ukraine.
Those people have noelectricity, no medication
access, no blah, blah, blah.
(31:22):
Why are you complaining thatyou've got this cereal and your
brother got that cereal?
Like, you know, we reallystruggle.
And that's real.
You know, there's a concept inpsychotherapy of Maslow's
hierarchy of needs, right?
That you know you know, first, Idon't remember exactly what it
is.
You could Google it, but youknow, first you have need for
food and shelter.
Then you have need for, andthen, you know, end up at the
(31:43):
top of that pyramid is like,need for self fulfillment.
It doesn't, change ourrelationship to those
challenges, though.
They're all the same.
It's just a different questionof like where you are on that
hierarchy of.
Katie (31:56):
Interesting.
I really appreciate what yousaid about, you know, Those
perceived or those struggles,even though they might be higher
up on the hierarchy, hierarchyof needs, is that what you call
it?
Um, They're still real andthey're still present and they
still deserve to be addressed.
You know, even if it's not asseemingly severe as, you know,
(32:18):
I, I don't have food and waterand shelter and things like
that.
Joanne (32:21):
Absolutely
Katie (32:22):
I think I have, I remember that.
I have to remember that as.
Friend a lot just, you know,just with my friends, you know,
cuz because their struggles, youknow, they might be going
through this struggle that I'mnot going through and I'm
obviously over here goingthrough whatever struggle I'm
currently dealing with and Ihave to remind myself that like,
Okay.
My struggle might seem bigger oryou know, more important I guess
(32:43):
to me because it's my life andit's very real for me, but I
need to remember that theirs tothem is just as important and,
Deserves to be recognized aswell
Joanne (32:54):
you're talking about something actually super
important for diabetic parents.
For parents of diabetic kids.
I never know quite how to saythat cuz I don't like diabetic
so much, but Because we arestruggling so much, right?
We have many more sleeplessnights.
We have a lot more stress aboutour kids' safety, physical
safety in a way that the averageparent or the parent of, you
(33:15):
know, even you with yournon-type one kids have less
stress about those things thanyou do with your daughter.
But the question is how to holdthat with our.
Katie (33:23):
Mm.
Joanne (33:24):
Right.
And that's hard because often wefeel not seen by them, right?
That they're not leaning farenough into our experience.
And that's tricky.
And then there can be someresentment.
Like if I have friends who sayto me, I'm so tired.
There's a little conversationthat goes on in my head about
trying to stand down.
My idea of tired, right?
Because for years I was likemassively sleep deprived, cuz I
(33:47):
didn't have any of thetechnology that I have now.
So I'm not as massively sleepdeprived as I used to be.
But you know, back in those daysif someone said they were tired,
I felt like biting their headoff, right?
So I think you're talking aboutsomething really important and I
think it takes a deeperfriendship to be able to talk
that stuff.
Katie (34:05):
Mm-hmm.
Joanne (34:06):
to be able to say, Hey, I'm needing this from you.
Or Hey, you know, sometimes whenyou say that, I just want you to
know that I, that I toggle to ahard place Right.
Those are deep friends for us tobe able to say those things, but
that's real.
I think as type one parents,that is very real.
Katie (34:20):
Yeah.
No, I would agree.
And we were, we're gonna do anentire episode on relationships
and how those relationships canbe stressed when you have a Type
one diagnosis.
So we'll probably hit on that alittle bit more I would imagine.
Before we sign off for today, isthere anything else about
validation that we didn't hitthat you think might be
important for listeners to hear?
And you can say, No,
Joanne (34:39):
Yeah.
No, I don't think so.
I mean, I guess the only thingthat comes to mind is, is, and I
sort of pointed to it already,is like, don't knock yourself
up.
Don't, don't beat yourself upfor.
Not getting it right.
Right.
Like you're practicing your, thefact, anyone listening to this,
anyone thinking about this isjust doing such a beautiful job
of moving themselves along intheir parenting journey.
(35:00):
And we try and we fail and wetry again and we talk to
somebody about how we failed andhow to make it better.
And just keep trying, keepplaying with your parenting
tools and like this is one of.
Katie (35:11):
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Well thank you so much Joanne.
So many such great advice.
I really love talking with you.
I feel, I feel very fortunatecause I do feel like I get my
own little mini therapy session.
Joanne (35:21):
I'm so glad you feel that way, Katie.
I, it's a delight to be withyou.
Thanks.
Katie (35:24):
Yes.
Oh, you're very welcome.
Yeah.
I feel like this podcast hasbeen very cathartic for me just
to kind of talk everythingthrough and hear everybody's
thoughts and opinions.
It's definitely helpful for mysoul, for sure.
Joanne (35:36):
Good
Katie (35:36):
All right.
Well, have a fabulous day and Iknow we will be talking again
soon.
Joanne (35:39):
Thanks, Katie.
Katie (35:44):
All right.
You guys, that is it for ourshow today.
I hope you enjoyed that.
Awesome chat with Joanne.
Be sure to check out my otherepisode with Joanne that just
came out last week.
That's episode 88.
On anxiety.
And dealing with the anxietythat comes along with being the
parent of a type one diabetic.
Next week's episode.
And the episode after that,we'll both also be with Joanne.
(36:07):
I'm so excited to have her backon.
And again, be sure to check outher website, diabetes.
Sweet talk.com.
All right, you guys have afabulous week.
I will chat with you soon, butuntil then stay calm and bolus
on.
Bye.
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