November 21, 2025 • 53 mins
Perfection looks powerful until it breaks a team. We sat down with Julie Booksh—licensed counselor, marriage and family therapist, and leadership coach—to rethink what real strength looks like inside complex systems. Julie’s journey from HR to therapy to organizational consulting frames a core insight: families and workplaces both protect a “normal temperature,” even when it stalls growth. To change the system, you start with the smallest circle you control—yourself—and expand outward with intention.
We dig into the inner critic that many high achievers mistake for motivation. Julie shows how that voice once served safety but now fuels burnout, anxiety, and comparison. Her definition of self-compassion is disarmingly simple and deeply practical: notice how you are, name it, and treat it with kindness before you try to fix anything. That shift separates guilt from shame. Guilt says you did something harmful; repair it. Shame says you are harmful; hide. Leaders who practice compassion can own mistakes without collapsing into self-contempt, which invites their teams to be honest, creative, and accountable.
If this conversation resonates, share it with a leader who carries too much alone, subscribe for more human-centered performance insights, and leave a review to help others discover the show.
Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jayjohnsonccg/
Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jay Johnson (00:38):
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where together we are shapingworkforce behaviors.
Today I am joined by JulieBooksh, an expert in the area of
self-compassion and leadership.
And I'm really excited to diginto this conversation.
Julie, welcome to the show.
Julie Booksh (00:55):
Thanks, Jay.
I'm so happy to be with you.
Jay Johnson (00:58):
So why don't we get to know you a little bit better
here, Julie?
I'd love to know how did youfind yourself in this talent
development space and reallywhat was driving that passion?
Julie Booksh (01:08):
Oh, a lot.
Well, first, let me let me goback.
So I used to be in the businessworld.
My first right out ofundergrad, I was an HR person.
And I stayed in HR for yearsuntil I went back to school to
get my MBA.
And then in the middle of that,I switched to my pre-CPA
program.
Then I went and worked for BigFour CPA firm, hated it.
(01:30):
In the middle of all of that, Iwent through a divorce at a
very young age.
I was 24.
And um, because of that, Istarted to go to therapy because
I was in this relationship thatI didn't know if I wanted to be
in.
And that was a huge deal forthe young Catholic girl growing
up in the South.
And I started going to therapy.
(01:53):
And through that, I ended upgetting divorced.
But once I kind of went intothis space of um questioning my
entire life, so my relationshipwas the first thing that got me
there.
But then it was why do I havethis career?
Why do I believe the thingsthat I believe in?
Like every huge question youcould ask, I was asking.
And that journey took me togetting my master's degree in
(02:16):
marriage and family therapy andcounseling.
So I'm a licensed counselor anda marriage and family therapist
in my therapy career, but thathas morphed over the years.
You know, marriage and familytherapy is actually a systems
theory.
So it makes it sound like it'sjust about families and
(02:37):
marriage, but it's really abouthow systems work and how people
work in those systems and howthe status quo gets maintained
and how the status quo getsdisrupted.
So all of that kind of led mehere to um deepening people's
awareness of how they'refunctioning in a system, zooming
out and looking at how systemsfunction and how they, you know,
(03:00):
impact each other from the topdown, from the bottom up, and
all that jazz.
So that's a little bit of how Iuh I tried to make that short,
got to where I am now.
Jay Johnson (03:12):
So I'm sure that the audience has figured out.
Well, I am really excited totalk to you now.
So let's, you know, before wejump into the self-compassion
and leadership, there's a lot tounpack there.
And, you know, I like to lookat it uh even at my age, I still
haven't figured out exactlywhat I want to be.
There's always newopportunities and everything
else.
So I love that, I love that howthis kind of shifted and into
(03:35):
this systems approach.
And now obviously,relationships, uh, marriage, et
cetera, all of those aresystems, the home life systems,
et cetera.
And the workplace on some levelis a system.
Is there something, if if Iwere to ask, is there a
relationship or what would youshare maybe that would be
(03:55):
similar between like the systemof relationships in marriage and
the system of the workplace?
Julie Booksh (04:03):
Well, this I will say that I'm going back to my
graduate school.
I can see my teacher drawingthis on the problem.
Um they they they they'resimilar in the way that they
operate, meaning they have anorm.
They have a temperature, as myprofessor would have put it,
that they they like to stay at.
(04:23):
Even when that temperature isdysfunctional, people are
automatically maintaining thenorm, even when the norm sucks.
Can I say that here?
Jay Johnson (04:36):
Yeah, absolutely.
Julie Booksh (04:37):
Known as the swearing therapist, I should
have, I should have put that inthe intro, right?
Um, so so people are operatingunconsciously often in a way
that keeps the status quo, evenwhen it sucks, going, right?
So that's the similaritybetween the two systems.
Now, if you want to disrupt thestatus quo um anywhere, it's
(05:01):
about learning how you arecontributing to it and how you
can begin to change.
So if we if we put the statusquo in a circle, and I wish I
could draw this.
And so imagine I have a circleon my hand, and I want the
circle to go up here now.
I want to change the statusquo.
(05:21):
Well, that means I have to movemy position a little bit.
So if I've been operating oneway that's contributing
unbeknownst to me to the system,I have to start operating in a
different way.
In a family, that might meanI'm gonna start drawing
boundaries where I haven't.
Jay Johnson (05:40):
Right.
Julie Booksh (05:40):
Now, in a family, the system might not like that.
So it's gonna try to pull theperson back into the normal
circle, the normal circle, theusual status quo circle.
In a business, it's a littlebit different because there are
different ranks and powers, youknow, but maybe I don't feel
(06:01):
like I have the authority todraw a boundary.
And so all of this becomes asituation where I have to really
deepen.
Is that true that I don't havethe authority, or am I just
assuming that's true?
How does the system it does thesystem create a safety around
that kind of thing?
And what's the culture of thesystem like?
(06:23):
So marriages and families andorganizations, which are kind of
like families in some ways.
Yes.
So that's one example of howthey they're they could be
similar.
Jay Johnson (06:37):
Well, I love that.
That's a great example.
And there's again so muchwisdom in there.
Number one is it sounds to me,and correct me if I'm wrong
here, but it sounds to me kindof step one is becoming aware of
ourself and our role inside ofthat system.
Because I think so often uh thething that you said is like,
how have I contributed to thissystem?
(06:58):
And I think about that of howhave I contributed to that
system by either doing or notdoing something.
Maybe uh, you know, when Ithink of organizational culture,
we all have a part to play.
And a lot of times it's likeit's just the leaders, or it's
no, it's just the peopleunderground.
But the reality is culture isthe sum of all of the behaviors
in an organization.
(07:20):
And we choose to eithernormalize particular ones or
avoid particular ones because ofour choices.
So, how do you help somebodyraise awareness to like their
power, their ability toinfluence, or even just their
own personal stake inside ofthose systems?
Julie Booksh (07:38):
Yeah.
Well, first I want to look atthe system inside of us, right?
That's the one that gets uhignored the most.
And I want to really emphasizethis is a this is not about
blame, meaning it's not about,oh, what am I doing wrong?
Because that's a very shamingmodel.
This is about deepeningawareness of what's going on.
(08:00):
So if I have a problem in amarriage or a workplace or
whatever it is, I want to beable to zoom out and ask myself,
you know, okay, what am Iseeing?
What's the problem?
Now I want to zoom in and go,well, what's the system inside
of me?
Right.
So maybe I have an innerdictator, so to speak.
(08:21):
A lot of people might call thislike an inner critic that says,
I shouldn't stand up formyself, I shouldn't draw a
boundary because what if I getin trouble?
Or what, you know, all thestories that we might have
attached to that.
So a huge part is the sit, andwe don't think about this
because it's not something wehear about often, is the
(08:42):
internal system going on insideof us.
We're made up of multipleparts, right?
And a lot, a lot of people,myself included, for a very long
time had one part that was kindof in charge some kind of way,
and that happens throughdifferent traumas.
It happens through messages wehear growing up, or whatever the
(09:02):
case may be, about how I'msupposed to be, how I'm not
supposed to be.
So there's this inner, youknow, shaming watcher.
Oh, don't do this, don't dothat.
It's not safe to do this, notsafe to do that.
And sometimes for good reasonit wasn't safe for me to do this
or that.
But now, if I'm in a place inan organization where I'm
(09:24):
telling myself I shouldn't drawa boundary, I shouldn't speak up
for what I want or whatever,and I am finding that that is
not making me happy, then I wantto go inside and say, okay,
what is it inside of the personfirst that is telling them they
shouldn't?
And then I want to challengethat thing.
(09:44):
I want to say, why shouldn't I?
Is it true that I shouldn't?
Is this organization not goingto take that?
Or is it going to put me in aplace of harm?
There's all these, there areall of these places we operate
from that we don't everchallenge.
unknown (10:01):
Yeah.
Julie Booksh (10:01):
And so I want to help people challenge, okay, is
this true first?
And okay, well, no, it's nottrue, but I still feel terrified
to do it.
All right, well, now it's stufflike that.
So the inner system that'sgoing on inside of us all the
time is one that is oftenoverlooked, especially, I
shouldn't say especially inorganizations, especially
(10:22):
everywhere.
Um, but we don't think ofourselves as a system.
We don't think that there's awhole system going on inside of
us of different voices thatwe've internalized.
And um, this is where theself-compassion part comes in,
that we don't we have to developmany of us, a compassionate
part of us, because so many ofus were taught to um grow
(10:46):
through self-criticism.
Jay Johnson (10:49):
You know, and I love this because I as you're
talking through this, and youknow, one of the things that I
study is like theneurobiological patterns of
behavior, right?
So something occurs long, longtime ago, our hippocampus starts
going, ah, that was scary, wedon't want that again.
And then all of a sudden,anytime that that you know
(11:11):
potential risk is out there, apattern of behavior starts
playing.
And if we're thinking aboutshifting behaviors in the
workplace, we really do need tobe thinking about what are those
underlying patterns?
Where do they show up?
And what's driving those?
So the the the fact that we'rethe fact that what you're saying
is raising that awareness towhere might this be coming from?
(11:33):
And then really digging in onthat question of is this
actually serving me?
Is this is this creating theconditions for my success?
Is this creating the conditionsfor conflict?
Is it creating the conditionsfor my anxiety and my burnout?
Is it you know all those voicesinside?
Yeah.
Julie Booksh (11:51):
All of that, you know, my anxiety, my burnout.
We we live in a culture thatlooks at the at those things as
bad.
Like if I'm feeling anxious, ifI'm feeling burnt out, it must
be because I'm doing somethingwrong, right?
Or I haven't healed enough, orall the other bullshit that gets
thrown at us that makes italways feel speaking of system.
(12:11):
If I could really zoom out andlook at our cultural system, I
would define it like this it's asystem that throws things at us
that says, do this, this, andthis and this, and you will be
well.
You will be successful, youwill have money, you will be in
the right shape, you you know,all the all the things.
(12:31):
You will have the right amountof energy, you won't be tired,
all this stuff.
Well, that is a very rigiddefinition of what it means to
be well.
Okay, so what happens is thesystem throws all these things
at us and says, do these things,you'll be well.
And if you aren't well, it'sbecause you must be doing
(12:55):
something wrong.
You must be procrastinating,you must not be setting
boundaries, you must be doingthis or not doing that.
Instead of questioning thewhole system, it's built on this
shaming thing of this is myfault.
There's something else I needto do, there's something I'm not
doing enough of.
And this is why self-compassionis such a huge thing for me in
(13:18):
my work, because I see this kindof shaming thing everywhere.
Um, it so, so that's a systemthat needs to be looked at too.
If I am burnt out, is itbecause I'm doing something
wrong?
No.
If I'm feeling anxious, insteadof treating that with a lot of
care and compassion, there's alot of, oh, we'll do this to fix
it.
Like it's something wrong inthe first place, when most
(13:41):
people have really good reasonsto be anxious.
Jay Johnson (13:43):
Right.
Well, you know, when I think ofburnout, burnout's simply an
early warning system telling yousomething worse is coming if
you don't take action.
And I I agree with you.
I hear that language of we needto get rid of burnout or you
know, nip burnout out.
And when when we're talkingabout burnout, we're like,
actually, burnout's less abouthow much work you're doing.
(14:05):
It's usually more about theresentment that you feel, either
from an isolation standpoint, avalue standpoint, or anything
else.
So I really want to dig intothis self-compassion because
number one is I would say Idon't know that it's it's well
defined for people.
So maybe if I could startthere, what does self-compassion
(14:27):
look like from Julie'sperspective?
Julie Booksh (14:30):
Well, first of all, I have to say the question
makes me want to close my eyesand slow down just hearing it.
And and and for me, that's kindof part of what it is for me.
Now it's going to land oneverybody differently, but to
define it, I would say that itmeans number one, being aware of
(14:54):
how I am, and then two,acknowledging it.
And then three, I would say itwould be treating it with
kindness instead of how do I fixit?
So kind of like I always usethe uh the analogy of if I could
(15:15):
talk to myself the way I talkto my puppy, then I am at the
self-compassion.
I'm at I've I've I've reallydone a lot of good work, right?
Or for some people it might bea baby the way I would talk to a
baby, or even a good friend.
The way we meet ourselves whenwe're struggling, is how I
(15:37):
define self-compassion.
And a compassionate stance, acompassionate stance says this,
you know, say say say I'mstruggling with something, I'm
afraid of something, whatever,name anything is to acknowledge
that one, I'm I'm afraid, I feelafraid.
So I'm acknowledging how I'mdoing, how I am, and I'm not
(16:00):
meeting that with a bunch of,oh, I need to fix this, blah,
blah, blah.
I'm saying, I almost say, Itell people, when I can say to
myself, oh, sweetheart, you'refeeling sad or angry or scared.
And it's hard.
It's hard to feel that.
To acknowledge, like I'm havinga moment of struggle.
(16:21):
That is compassion.
To acknowledge it, and to say,it's okay to it's okay to
struggle.
You're not the only one in theworld that struggles by any
means.
And that this is hard.
It's hard to feel this.
Jay Johnson (16:40):
So to Okay, go ahead.
I was gonna ask a question, andand I and I'm loving this.
I I really like I really likehow you framed that because I
I'm thinking about this, and andI'll I'll just share a little
bit of my background.
I was a junior hockey player, Iwas pretty competitive, then I
went into debate, then I wentinto mixed martial arts.
(17:02):
It was always, you know,forward, forward, forward,
fight, fight, fight.
It was no flight, there was nofeint or anything else.
And, you know, and this is notany criticism of my family, but
growing up, it was just like uhif I screwed something up, it
was like, come on, get your headin the game, do better, you're
better than this, move forward.
And it was just, it was, it wasand and I found that to be
(17:26):
mostly motivating.
There's definitely points andtimes when I've had to pull back
from that and be like, allright, slow down, stop, stop
beating yourself up on this.
But uh, how how common is itfor somebody to kind of walk
through that space of beinglike, oh Jay, you're better than
this.
Come on, get your get your shittogether.
Or you know, something of thatnature where it's just like
(17:49):
really kind of, you know.
Julie Booksh (17:52):
Oh, it's so common, Jay.
This is the this is the so whatyou're talking about is like
the perfect example.
I was also an athlete.
I played volleyball andsoftball, and um very
competitive.
I've I'm still competitive ifI've if I I haven't played a
sport in a long time.
I'm looking to get into one,but um, I'm I'm very
competitive, and that has beenmostly a really good thing.
(18:16):
Um but when we internalize avoice and it's the only voice
and that doesn't let up, itbecomes like an inner criticism.
It's some, you know, we'renever enough, we're never doing
enough, we're never performingat the right level.
It is so common.
This is why I think one of mymost popular classes I teach is
(18:39):
how to tame your inner criticbecause we don't, and again,
it's it's not only yourindividual story, we live in a
society that is about the grindand powering through, and all
you know, strength andstrength's definition is only
one definition, andvulnerability is not strong, you
know.
We're seeing this change, yeah,but most of us grew up in a you
(19:03):
know, be strong, power through,don't show your emotions, it's
weak to cry, all of thesethings.
So it's extreme.
I have never met a person umthat I that I don't hear an
inner critic in.
I've never taught a class wherethe topic of an inner critic or
a pressure maker for differentpeople, it has different
(19:25):
nuances.
Um I've never I've never beenin a class, even when the topic
wasn't inner criticism, wherethis does doesn't come up.
Jay Johnson (19:34):
Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense.
And I'm even I and as my brainstarts to to go in all the
different directions.
I'm thinking of those peoplethat are out there that suffer
from severe imposter syndrome,like, I don't belong here, or
you know, the inner voice going,you don't belong here.
What are you doing?
Get out of this space.
I've experienced that once ortwice.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Yeah, once or twice.
Jay Johnson (19:57):
Once or twice.
And you know, that that innercritic of saying, Well, you
know, what about the and andmaybe let's take this one
because I see this very often inwork cultures, the comparison
trap.
You've got one manager who'slooking at another manager and
saying, Oh, I should be at thatlevel, or I should be doing
(20:19):
this, or gosh, why am I not, youknow, keeping up with this
person?
And there's always this sort oflike comparison between
ourselves and somebody else inthe workplace.
So these are all examples ofthat inner critic that you're
speaking to.
How does how doesself-compassion like how does
that work?
How does that function to startremoving sort of the impetus
(20:43):
behind that inner critic?
Julie Booksh (20:45):
Yeah.
Well, first I have to tell youthat the whole time you were
kind of explaining the question,I kept thinking of myself when
I was younger saying, I'm not mysister, I'm not my sister.
So for some of us, it goes wayback, the comparison thing.
And it doesn't even necessarilylike I can honestly say, I
(21:05):
don't, my parents must have beentelling me something that I was
responding to, but I could Ican't say that they were like
comparing me all the time, butit's in the water of our
culture.
So um, self-compassion.
So the so inner criticism,there are a few different ways
uh, because we don't want tohave a shame around inner
(21:26):
criticism either.
Like, how can you not have aninner critic if you grew up in
this country?
So um, right.
So there are a few phases ofit.
Like one is learning torecognize it, because so many of
us think that voice is justlike the normal voice, that it's
a strong voice, and we don'trealize the impact it's having
(21:47):
on us emotionally, physically,spiritually.
Um, so one is recognizing it,two is starting to talk back to
it and question it, like I wastalking about before.
And the third piece for me, butit's not in this order, is the
self-compassion part because Icould just take the first two
out for a minute.
(22:08):
And if I wanted to just onlyfocus on the third one, what it
does is it starts to create avoice inside of us that's not
just the pressure maker, pusher,inner critic.
So many of us have that voiceas the dominant voice, and all
of these other parts of us don'tget airtime, so to speak.
(22:32):
Um, they don't get to push backand say, I'm tired, because the
voice is like, well, it has areason you shouldn't be, or so
what?
You're supposed to be tired ifyou're gonna be successful or
whatever.
So the self-compassion piecestarts to create space, even if
(22:52):
it's 30 seconds a day.
It's 30 seconds more than whatmost people have, where I can
let myself slow down and checkin with how I'm feeling, and
honoring how I'm feeling, sayingit's okay how I'm feeling, how
(23:15):
I'm feeling is okay.
It might be difficult, it'sokay that it's difficult, and so
it's creating space and a uhhow would I say a voice that can
hold I'm gonna say tension forright now without having to fix
(23:38):
it, without having to improve.
It's a very loving stance.
And I think most of us arecaught in the stance of go, go,
go, go, go, go, go, and doing,doing, doing, performing,
performing, performing.
And and part of that iswonderful.
Like we want to do all thesethings, we have all these ideas,
or and it's great.
But when other parts of us andour body is one of the first
(24:00):
places that might say, ouch, youknow, like this hurts, ouch,
why?
So self-compassion starts tobuild that space in us that a
lot of us don't have, becausemost of us were never really
taught it.
Jay Johnson (24:16):
Let's talk about shame for just a second.
Because, you know, when wethink about, so a big part of a
big part of what I like to studyis like, okay, well, what was
the adaptive purpose of theseemotions, right?
Like if we think aboutevolutionary biology, the things
that we have with us served usover the course of our time on
(24:38):
this planet.
So I know that shame, I mean,shame was actually one of the
social cues that said, hey, youdid something wrong.
You feel shame for it.
So that way you don't do thatsomething wrong again.
And it creates the, you know, abetter social structure when
you're when you actually havesome level of shame.
(24:58):
But it seems to me that weoften sort of like overdo it
with shame.
So there's this balance ofwhere it can be adaptive and it
can also be maladaptive.
And it seems to me that a lotof shame or maladaptive shame,
overuse of it tends to createsome levels of rumination, or we
just kind of dig back into itor keep reliving it and over and
(25:21):
over and over again.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Yeah.
Jay Johnson (25:24):
If I was to ask, and and I'm not asking you to
quantify or anything else, butwhat were your what are your
thoughts when it comes to okay?
So there's there is some levelof shame that can be a good
thing.
Julie Booksh (25:36):
I'm gonna push back on that.
Okay, I'm gonna differentiate.
I'm gonna say no, there isn't,but I'm gonna differentiate
this.
I think what you are talkingabout is guilt, and to me, guilt
and shame are two differentthings.
Okay, okay, so I think what youwere describing for me more
falls under the guilt category.
Shame is a different beast.
(25:59):
Um, shame is a you're not goodenough, you're not worthy,
you're a bad.
Not not you did something bad,right?
Um, you are bad, you areworthless, you are not worthy.
That's shame.
Jay Johnson (26:17):
So more of the core, yeah.
Like I as an individual, not mybehavior was bad, but right I
as an individual are bad.
Julie Booksh (26:25):
All right, I can I can definitely I can see I
think there needs to be someseparation between that because
when because what you're sayingis correct, like it's it's if I
do something and it harmsanother person, it's a healthy
thing to be to to feel a littlebad about that or a lot bad
about that.
But what self-compassion helpsyou do is it helps you say, Yes,
(26:53):
that that it's difficult tohurt somebody else, but it
doesn't make you bad.
It's self-compassion helps youlearn how to be accountable
without being awful, you know.
So I can be accountable for mybehavior, I can be accountable
for my actions, and all ofthat's really important.
(27:15):
Shame actually prevents peoplefrom being accountable because
it just brings them straightinto your piece of shit.
Jay Johnson (27:23):
Sure.
And then the defense mechanismscome up and the pattern.
Julie Booksh (27:28):
And there's no ability to be accountable
because I'm just such in thisterrible place that I'm just
trying to fight feeling liketotal shit.
Jay Johnson (27:39):
So from the from the shame versus guilt
perspective, and and when we andI, you know, I like I like the
separation of those two thingsbecause when if I'm thinking
about like the individual aspectof it, now uh let's say that I
were to take a perspective of uhI am not, and and let's let's
(28:01):
play with this.
So I'm gonna nuance this just alittle bit for us.
Please, I am a terriblemusician.
You give me a guitar, and I amgonna screw it up.
I am awful, I am, I am bad.
Okay.
Now, where does that fall interms of like this
self-criticism, self-loathing?
(28:21):
Not it's obviously not shame.
I can I can honestly tell youyou don't want me playing a
guitar in one of your and you'resmiling when you tell me,
right?
Speaker 1 (28:30):
That's part of what tells you it's not shame.
Jay Johnson (28:32):
It's just like it's just yeah.
So how do we how do we parcelthis out?
Because I think that there aresome people that'll be like,
okay, well, if I'm not, youknow, if I'm not necessarily
going to feel shame, does thatmean that I'm not recognizing
when I do bad things or when I'mnot capable of something?
Or where does this come intolike the questions?
(28:52):
I guess really what I'm gettingdown to is where does it come
into the question of ego?
Julie Booksh (28:57):
Hmm.
Okay, well, ego, man, Jay, weneed three hours for these
questions.
Oh, okay, so ego gets a badrap.
And I I understand why.
When we're in our ego and we'reonly in our ego, and we have no
connection to our deeper selfthat knows that not everything
(29:21):
is about ego and feeling, youknow, safe, meaning, you know,
I'm never wrong, or I don't takerisks, or whatever.
So if I am too connected oroverly connected with my ego,
and I'm only in my ego, and Ican't ever feel bad because then
(29:43):
I lose my sense of importanceor not even support not even
importance, my sense of worth.
Right.
Then I'm totally wrapped up inmy ego and only my ego, where I
am only um able to value myselfthrough my level of perfection,
(30:03):
really.
So it's a trap, right?
Now I think where ego gets abad rap is our ego needs to be
in conversation with our deeperself.
The goal is not, oh, let's getget it rid of the ego.
I mean, ego is not bad, it'spart of what drives us.
But we want it to be, remember,I was talking about the
(30:27):
different parts of us and likeinner diversity, being aware
that we're made of multipleparts.
And we want to build theseparts in us, like the self
compassionate part, the innerhealer, so to speak.
The inner therapist.
So you want the ego to be ableto communicate and be in
relationship with the deeperself that knows if I screwed up,
(30:49):
it doesn't mean I'm a terribleperson, it means I'm human.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Love that.
Julie Booksh (30:56):
That's what it means.
It means I'm human.
I don't know a soul who has nothurt another person.
Jay Johnson (31:03):
Right?
So let's take this to thatleadership side now, because I
think that there are a lot ofleaders out there that expect
themselves to know everything,expect themselves to make every
right decision, expect and ithonestly, like whether you're in
a leadership title where thereis a lot of stress, maybe
(31:24):
there's high stakes, maybethere's risks.
But I mean, most people I stillthink also kind of expect
themselves to, you know, expectthey do feel shame when, oh, I
don't know, or the ability toadmit I don't know, or I can't
do that, or anything else likethat.
But for leaders, we know thatthere's usually consequences to
(31:47):
their decisions.
Consequences not just forthemselves, but for a company,
for their teams, for theiremployees, for whomever it might
be.
Um, we know that a lot of timesleadership can be really,
really lonely where you feellike you're only the only person
that's managing whatever theissue, risk, or you know, uh
change management that's coming,etc.
(32:08):
So, from a leadershipperspective, how can we maybe
help them to move a little bitmore towards that
self-compassion, that ability toopen up and say, okay, um, you
know, I need help.
Julie Booksh (32:23):
Yeah.
Well, first of all, if ifyou're trying to move in that
direction, um, and you know youhaven't really lived in that
direction, number one,understand it's going to feel
uncomfortable.
It's going to feel vulnerableand it's going to feel risky.
And so I want to have a lot ofcompassion around those
(32:43):
feelings.
Like it's okay that this feelsrisky.
It's hard, it's uncomfortable.
I don't like it.
But I I'm I'm here.
I it's almost like you'rewitnessing yourself with
compassion instead of witnessingyourself with shame.
I am acknowledging this, thisis hard.
I'm here.
(33:04):
We've got this.
It's like you're creating apartnership with your inner
compassion part.
So one, I want to frame it likeit's gonna feel uncomfortable.
That's okay.
That's okay.
Two, I also I want to say, as aleader, if we just stay on the
intellectual side withself-compassion, self-compassion
(33:28):
helps leaders create a morepsychologically safe environment
because they can say, I don'tknow.
They can make mistakes and theyknow it doesn't mean they're a
bad leader, because they have acompassionate part that says,
uh, I screwed up and I'm not apiece of shit.
(33:50):
I'm human.
I screwed up and I'm human.
And what it does when a leadercan say, I don't know, let's
take a breath, let's think aboutthis, let's not have to know
for a minute.
Or when they can say, I screwedup and I want to make sure
people know that I've ownedthat.
(34:11):
It makes other people feelsafer to do the same thing, to
to own, I screwed up.
So it creates an environmentwhere perfection isn't the goal,
and it makes it safe whenperfection doesn't happen.
And it actually makes peoplemore creative in that kind of
(34:35):
environment.
So self-compassion as theleader.
When I when I'm a leader, andbecause to me, everybody's a
leader.
Now I totally recognize whatyou're saying.
People in certain leadershippositions, it's lonely at the
top, there's a larger level ofresponsibility.
But as a leader, when I cansay, wow, I'm feeling nervous
(34:55):
about this, let me just take abreath, um that ripples out
where people can say, Oh, likeit's okay to feel a little
nervous, and I, you know, I'mgood.
I can feel nervous and still dowhatever I need to do.
So it really is a huge piece.
(35:16):
But if if I am notcompassionate toward myself as a
leader when I screw up, andpeople know that, then that's
the culture I'm creating.
That when people screw up, I'msupposed to be really mean to
myself and hard on myself.
And self-compassion does notmean that I'm not accountable.
It's actually the thing thathelps me be more accountable
(35:38):
because I can say I'm human, Iscrewed up.
It doesn't mean I'm bad.
Jay Johnson (35:43):
Right.
And it probably reduces theamount of resistance that we
have just internally for our foracknowledging andor taking
ownership on something.
Julie Booksh (35:54):
Exactly.
Jay Johnson (35:55):
You know, from that perspective, when we think
about, you know, what what'screated these patterns?
And I I look back and I'll justuse my own personal example,
but I do know for a long time,and and and I'm gonna admit,
what created this pattern too isis not my team, but it was me.
(36:16):
But at one point in time, therewas an element where like it
was everybody was coming to mefor permission or coming to me
for this and that.
And it was this was on me 100%.
And I'm gonna I'm gonna acceptthat ownership and
responsibility.
But I can see how leaderssometimes start to get into that
space of thinking, well, youknow, the team's counting on me,
(36:38):
everyone's counting on me, andI've made a mistake.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Yes.
Jay Johnson (36:42):
So when we're in that cycle, let's let's talk
pre-making the mistake, and wefeel already that the team is
just counting on me.
Help us walk through how can weas a leader maybe fix that.
And I don't mean fix that as ithas to go away or anything
(37:03):
else, but how can we maybesoften that?
Because when the mistakeoccurs, we don't want to be that
we don't want to be worryingabout it then.
So let's say before the mistakehappens or whatever the you
know the the incidents are thatcreates the conditions, we're
feeling like the whole teamrelies on us.
How do we start navigatingthat?
Julie Booksh (37:23):
Okay, so you're feeling pressure, is what I'm
saying.
Okay, I'm feeling all thispressure.
Oh, that's a beautiful example.
Oh, that's really a beautifulexample.
And I and this is what I'mperfect example of like just
ways when I can start to createthe habit of checking in with
myself, right?
(37:43):
Because I'm in the story ofeverybody's counting on me.
I have to, I am I'm feeling sothe the first part is I'm
feeling stressed out usually.
I'm feeling stressed out.
Okay, well, that's a hugedescriptor.
Tell me more about I'm feelingall this pressure, and I want to
(38:04):
stop, and I I want to say, wow,I'm feeling all this pressure.
Acknowledge how I'm feeling.
One that part alone is hugebecause I'm inside myself now.
I'm not just this machinethat's pushing myself forward,
I'm noticing me.
I feel all this pressure.
(38:24):
Okay.
Jay Johnson (38:25):
As you were getting me to this step one, too, like
I'm putting myself because I'veput a lot of pressure on myself
in the past in differentinstances.
So as you were saying that, Istarted to put myself into that,
and then I went back to youroriginal question of like, is
this because somebody else isputting the pressure on me, or
is it me putting the pressure onmyself?
(38:47):
If I went to my team and said,Hey, do you expect me to know
everything, do everything, beeverything, live everything?
Would they say, Yeah, Jay, Ido?
No, they wouldn't, you know.
Julie Booksh (38:59):
Right, you know, it's an important distinction.
Like, and then this is what I'msaying.
If we slow down and just get alittle curious, yeah, hey, is
this pressure coming fromoutside, or is the pressure
coming from inside?
And people's bodies, I do a lotwith body listening to our
bodies will often because somepeople will say I have a
pressure headache.
And I will say, Does thepressure feel like it's coming
(39:21):
from outside, or does thepressure feel like it's pushing
in, pushing out from inside?
The body will often mirror.
So the first part isacknowledging, like I feel this
pressure and and beingcompassionate.
Of course, I feel pressure.
Like some people will feelpressure and they think they're
wrong to feel pressure.
There's no wrong feeling.
What you're feeling is smart.
(39:43):
Your feelings are smart.
So I'm feeling this pressure.
Man, so much pressure.
It's it's hard to feel all ofthis pressure.
It takes the pressure down.
And that's not the goal whenI'm doing it.
The goal is caring for myselfin a way that actually sees me
(40:04):
and doesn't just look at me as amachine that has to jump
through all these hoops foreverything and everyone.
So the self-compassion, I'mfeeling pressure.
Okay, it's okay.
Of course, you're feelingpressure.
You're in charge of thismassive organization, or you're
in charge of this conflict, oryou cause this conflict,
whatever it might be.
(40:25):
Um now I'm thinking of marriageand family again in my own
life, and the pressure I put onmy husband, or whatever.
Um, but acknowledging how I'mfeeling and and again reminding
myself that of course I'mfeeling this.
I I'm human, I'm supposed tofeel things.
(40:46):
Yeah, a lot of differentthings, not just all the good
things.
Jay Johnson (40:52):
Where did we as a species start to get into
repression?
Like, where did that come from?
Why do we try to push thesefeelings down?
Because and I will tell you,yes, I came from a family where
it's like, suck it up,buttercup, get back out there,
put it away, and don't you worryabout it.
So I am definitely a product ofthat environment.
But with that being said, likewhat was the adaptive and and I
(41:16):
don't know that I'm asking youto truly answer this question,
but uh, what's your thoughts onthat?
Like, where did this become theadaptive response, which is
completely maladaptive to ouractual like happiness, joy, or
expression of real emotion?
Julie Booksh (41:31):
Yeah, I I have two answers.
One, I'm gonna answer, and Idon't have the answer, like you
said.
I first want to talk personallyfor me, and again, this is an
incomplete answer, but it's astart.
I grew up in strict religion,and strict religion.
This is I think why I'm sopassionate about
self-compassion.
(41:51):
I I never learned how to bekind to myself or love myself.
That was all for other people.
Be kind to other people, loveother people, meanwhile, keep
track of your sins and go reportthem, you know.
Okay, so there's not a lot ofcompassion in that.
So I grew up in a strictreligion where it was always
about staying in line, followingthe rules.
(42:13):
And if you veered from therules, you had to go report
yourself to a priest and youknow, get absolved and all of
these things.
So, I mean, we're laughingabout it, and it's great to
laugh about it, but it cancreate an inner monster.
Yeah, like you know, God isalways watching you, making sure
you're choosing right orchoosing wrong, and your eternal
(42:35):
um life depends on yourchoices, whether you end up in
fire or in clouds.
Okay, so there's a real for menow.
Lots of people are religiousand don't have that, but in the
way, but lots of people do.
Um so that is an inner criticthat's almost guised as God.
(42:57):
Like, how do you challengethat?
So for some people, badreligion is one place, and the
other thing I want to share is Iremember, and I hope I'm
getting this right.
Um, the author Susan Kane.
I don't know if you've heard ofher, but she um her first book,
I think it was her first book,was called Quiet.
(43:17):
And it was all about introvertsin the workplace.
And in in the book, as she'skind of laying out some
historical things, she talksabout the Dale Carnegie era era
and how it became a culture ofpersonality, like you were this
persona, and how at the sametime anxiety meds went up in men
(43:41):
because they had to put on thisshow.
Now it's hard for me to saythat men didn't have anxiety
before that, but this salesculture of be this charismatic
person that um I don't thinkgets on a stage and cries or
shows their vulnerabilities.
Uh, there was also an uptickwhere people lost they were
(44:07):
about being a personality, not aperson.
And I don't know that that'swhere it started because I think
it probably started long beforethat.
For me, it started like if Ilook at the history of religion,
I can see some of it in certainreligions, right?
Um, so I don't know the answer,but those are the first things
(44:28):
that pop in my head when you askthe question.
Well, and it's fascinating.
Jay Johnson (44:32):
Uh that I I love the answers because I I started
to think about that too, andit's almost like this like when
we have a prescriptive, almostum, this is how you're supposed
to be, right?
Whether that's godly, whetherthat is this is the macho, you
know.
Uh and I was thinking like uhas you were talking about, I was
(44:53):
thinking like the Sean Conneryof the 1970s or 80s, this is
what a man is, and you knowthose sort of like almost like
lofty, over high, overly highexpectations, and it comes down
to again a little bit of thecomparison trap, like oh, I'm
not like that.
Why I gotta just toughen up orwhatever, and then that's insert
(45:17):
feminism, right?
Julie Booksh (45:18):
So women are trying to get more uh access to
certain positions, and they haveto act that way, yeah.
Right.
So they're playing in amasculine world.
I don't mean male, although inthis case that also applies, but
like the way if I'm going to bein this world and I'm gonna be
(45:39):
able to compete and get to thelevels that I want to get to,
that that's the model of how todo it.
I mean, look at the difference,like even like look at
politics.
Like, you know, I rememberafter Hurricane Katrina, um, I
I'm from New Orleans, um, thegovernor at the time, uh Blanco,
(46:00):
Kathleen Blanco, she cried atthe podium at one of the press
conferences after HurricaneKatrina.
Jay Johnson (46:09):
Seems like an appropriate response.
Julie Booksh (46:12):
Thank you.
And people were not having it.
And I'm like, our city isdestroyed.
Like, how are we?
I mean, everybody's crying,everybody's all always also
trying to put things backtogether and happy as a
community to be together andmourning the loss of life and
(46:33):
all kinds of things.
How do you not cry?
Jay Johnson (46:37):
And but as a governor, she shouldn't have
cried, was the so there's thismentality that as an title all
of a sudden just revokes or youknow, c takes away any emotional
capacity that you're exactly,and quite frankly, I think that
I think if some of thepoliticians cried a little bit
(46:58):
more or actually demonstratedsome of their emotional
self-compassion, we might not beuh as divided as we are as a
country, yeah.
Julie Booksh (47:09):
Yes, exactly.
If we could see each other'shumanity, yeah, right, and here
we are back to self-compassion.
But we were taught somehow, andI don't know where, Jay, but
somewhere we were taught likethis is what strength is
supposed to look like, this iswhat leadership is supposed to
look like, and all of it justkept taking being human out of
(47:32):
it.
And there's no psychologicalsafety in that for the
environment, right?
So in organizations, peoplefeel safer.
I I tell my mentor, so one timeshe forgot like our appointment
or something, and we get on thephone, she's like, Oh, I had it
the wrong thing.
And I just smiled, and she'slike, What are you smiling at?
I'm like, I love it when youscrew up because it just makes
(47:55):
me feel so much morecomfortable.
Jay Johnson (47:59):
So I I love this, and you know, this is this is
one of those things, and I thinkthat uh with your permission,
I'd like to invite you back atsome point in time so we can
talk a little bit more aboutpsychological safety.
I know we really kind of dug inon the self-compassion side.
Um, you know, because thesethings are linked, and these
things have an impact on us asindividuals and also these
(48:22):
systems, whether that system'sfamily, whether that system's
culture, whether that system is,you know, even just our social
political environment out there.
Is there any kind of finalthoughts that you would leave?
I know that we've talked a lotabout a lot, you know, being
aware of it, sitting with it,being able to take and these are
those takeaways for theaudience, you know, take it, you
(48:44):
know, sitting with it, beingaware of it, having some of
that, hey, I'm human and I havea right to feel these ways, you
know, recognizing that we're allfeeling this way, whether
whether people are showing it ornot, unless they're a complete
psychopath, they're probablyfeeling, you know, very, very
similar things.
Julie Booksh (49:02):
I don't know anyone who isn't struggling in
some way.
Jay Johnson (49:05):
Right, right.
Yeah.
Julie Booksh (49:08):
Uh my my I would say two things.
One is that self-compassion forme is the foundation of
psychological safety.
unknown (49:20):
Yeah.
Julie Booksh (49:21):
First inside of myself, but then inside of if
I'm a leader or the leader of afamily or whatever it is.
Um so it can't just be whenwhen I listened and learned and
learned from researchers onself-compassion, they always say
when they go into companies andteach about it, the employees
(49:42):
always want to know are themanagers gonna get this class
too?
Because they the managers arethe ones who set the tone.
They're the ones that have therank and the power to set the
tone for the psychologicalsafety.
So you can't just say, Oh, Iwant my my team to know they
(50:04):
don't have to be perfect, butthen I'm walking around not able
to let myself make mistakes orwhatever.
So that's like an incongruentmessage.
So self-compassion, even inleadership, is the foundation of
psychological safety.
And I forgot the second thingthat I was gonna say, Jay, but
here we are.
Jay Johnson (50:23):
Well, here, I'll ask, I'll ask the question for
the second thing.
If our audience wanted to getin touch with you, Julie, and to
talk through some of theseissues, how would they reach out
to you?
Julie Booksh (50:33):
My website is my name, juliebooks.com.
And I am on Instagram and I'mon Facebook, but through my
website is probably the best wayto reach out to me.
And I want to mention, since wetalked about it, I do have a
free PDF on my website about theinner critic and how to tame
the inner critic that talksabout what you and I talked
(50:54):
about, um, how to deal withthat.
And there is aself-competition,
self-compassion piece of that inthat document.
So if anybody wants that,please help yourself.
Jay Johnson (51:05):
Amazing.
And we'll make sure that thatlink is in the show notes so you
can find it, audience.
Julie, I just want to say thishas been an awesome
conversation.
A little bit longer of anepisode, but I I think that we
could have probably, you'reright, gone for another two to
three hours on these topics.
Speaker 1 (51:20):
Yes.
Jay Johnson (51:21):
So I just want to say thank you so much for for
joining me today to startingthis conversation and for
sharing your your wisdom andinsights in these areas.
Really appreciate that.
Julie Booksh (51:32):
Thank you, Jay.
I agree.
It has been a wonderfulconversation, and I love your
your the depth of yourquestions.
So thank you.
Jay Johnson (51:39):
Yeah, my pleasure.
And uh, we'll definitely belooking to have you back and we
can further this and dig alittle deeper on that
psychological safety.
So thank you again, and uhthank you to the audience for
tuning into this episode of theTalent Forge, where together we
are shaping the future ofworkforce behaviors.
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where together we are shapingworkforce behaviors.
Today I am joined by JulieBooksh, an expert in the area of
self-compassion and leadership.
And I'm really excited to diginto this conversation.
Julie, welcome to the show.
Julie Booksh (00:55):
Thanks, Jay.
I'm so happy to be with you.
Jay Johnson (00:58):
So why don't we get to know you a little bit better
here, Julie?
I'd love to know how did youfind yourself in this talent
development space and reallywhat was driving that passion?
Julie Booksh (01:08):
Oh, a lot.
Well, first, let me let me goback.
So I used to be in the businessworld.
My first right out ofundergrad, I was an HR person.
And I stayed in HR for yearsuntil I went back to school to
get my MBA.
And then in the middle of that,I switched to my pre-CPA
program.
Then I went and worked for BigFour CPA firm, hated it.
(01:30):
In the middle of all of that, Iwent through a divorce at a
very young age.
I was 24.
And um, because of that, Istarted to go to therapy because
I was in this relationship thatI didn't know if I wanted to be
in.
And that was a huge deal forthe young Catholic girl growing
up in the South.
And I started going to therapy.
(01:53):
And through that, I ended upgetting divorced.
But once I kind of went intothis space of um questioning my
entire life, so my relationshipwas the first thing that got me
there.
But then it was why do I havethis career?
Why do I believe the thingsthat I believe in?
Like every huge question youcould ask, I was asking.
And that journey took me togetting my master's degree in
(02:16):
marriage and family therapy andcounseling.
So I'm a licensed counselor anda marriage and family therapist
in my therapy career, but thathas morphed over the years.
You know, marriage and familytherapy is actually a systems
theory.
So it makes it sound like it'sjust about families and
(02:37):
marriage, but it's really abouthow systems work and how people
work in those systems and howthe status quo gets maintained
and how the status quo getsdisrupted.
So all of that kind of led mehere to um deepening people's
awareness of how they'refunctioning in a system, zooming
out and looking at how systemsfunction and how they, you know,
(03:00):
impact each other from the topdown, from the bottom up, and
all that jazz.
So that's a little bit of how Iuh I tried to make that short,
got to where I am now.
Jay Johnson (03:12):
So I'm sure that the audience has figured out.
Well, I am really excited totalk to you now.
So let's, you know, before wejump into the self-compassion
and leadership, there's a lot tounpack there.
And, you know, I like to lookat it uh even at my age, I still
haven't figured out exactlywhat I want to be.
There's always newopportunities and everything
else.
So I love that, I love that howthis kind of shifted and into
(03:35):
this systems approach.
And now obviously,relationships, uh, marriage, et
cetera, all of those aresystems, the home life systems,
et cetera.
And the workplace on some levelis a system.
Is there something, if if Iwere to ask, is there a
relationship or what would youshare maybe that would be
(03:55):
similar between like the systemof relationships in marriage and
the system of the workplace?
Julie Booksh (04:03):
Well, this I will say that I'm going back to my
graduate school.
I can see my teacher drawingthis on the problem.
Um they they they they'resimilar in the way that they
operate, meaning they have anorm.
They have a temperature, as myprofessor would have put it,
that they they like to stay at.
(04:23):
Even when that temperature isdysfunctional, people are
automatically maintaining thenorm, even when the norm sucks.
Can I say that here?
Jay Johnson (04:36):
Yeah, absolutely.
Julie Booksh (04:37):
Known as the swearing therapist, I should
have, I should have put that inthe intro, right?
Um, so so people are operatingunconsciously often in a way
that keeps the status quo, evenwhen it sucks, going, right?
So that's the similaritybetween the two systems.
Now, if you want to disrupt thestatus quo um anywhere, it's
(05:01):
about learning how you arecontributing to it and how you
can begin to change.
So if we if we put the statusquo in a circle, and I wish I
could draw this.
And so imagine I have a circleon my hand, and I want the
circle to go up here now.
I want to change the statusquo.
(05:21):
Well, that means I have to movemy position a little bit.
So if I've been operating oneway that's contributing
unbeknownst to me to the system,I have to start operating in a
different way.
In a family, that might meanI'm gonna start drawing
boundaries where I haven't.
Jay Johnson (05:40):
Right.
Julie Booksh (05:40):
Now, in a family, the system might not like that.
So it's gonna try to pull theperson back into the normal
circle, the normal circle, theusual status quo circle.
In a business, it's a littlebit different because there are
different ranks and powers, youknow, but maybe I don't feel
(06:01):
like I have the authority todraw a boundary.
And so all of this becomes asituation where I have to really
deepen.
Is that true that I don't havethe authority, or am I just
assuming that's true?
How does the system it does thesystem create a safety around
that kind of thing?
And what's the culture of thesystem like?
(06:23):
So marriages and families andorganizations, which are kind of
like families in some ways.
Yes.
So that's one example of howthey they're they could be
similar.
Jay Johnson (06:37):
Well, I love that.
That's a great example.
And there's again so muchwisdom in there.
Number one is it sounds to me,and correct me if I'm wrong
here, but it sounds to me kindof step one is becoming aware of
ourself and our role inside ofthat system.
Because I think so often uh thething that you said is like,
how have I contributed to thissystem?
(06:58):
And I think about that of howhave I contributed to that
system by either doing or notdoing something.
Maybe uh, you know, when Ithink of organizational culture,
we all have a part to play.
And a lot of times it's likeit's just the leaders, or it's
no, it's just the peopleunderground.
But the reality is culture isthe sum of all of the behaviors
in an organization.
(07:20):
And we choose to eithernormalize particular ones or
avoid particular ones because ofour choices.
So, how do you help somebodyraise awareness to like their
power, their ability toinfluence, or even just their
own personal stake inside ofthose systems?
Julie Booksh (07:38):
Yeah.
Well, first I want to look atthe system inside of us, right?
That's the one that gets uhignored the most.
And I want to really emphasizethis is a this is not about
blame, meaning it's not about,oh, what am I doing wrong?
Because that's a very shamingmodel.
This is about deepeningawareness of what's going on.
(08:00):
So if I have a problem in amarriage or a workplace or
whatever it is, I want to beable to zoom out and ask myself,
you know, okay, what am Iseeing?
What's the problem?
Now I want to zoom in and go,well, what's the system inside
of me?
Right.
So maybe I have an innerdictator, so to speak.
(08:21):
A lot of people might call thislike an inner critic that says,
I shouldn't stand up formyself, I shouldn't draw a
boundary because what if I getin trouble?
Or what, you know, all thestories that we might have
attached to that.
So a huge part is the sit, andwe don't think about this
because it's not something wehear about often, is the
(08:42):
internal system going on insideof us.
We're made up of multipleparts, right?
And a lot, a lot of people,myself included, for a very long
time had one part that was kindof in charge some kind of way,
and that happens throughdifferent traumas.
It happens through messages wehear growing up, or whatever the
(09:02):
case may be, about how I'msupposed to be, how I'm not
supposed to be.
So there's this inner, youknow, shaming watcher.
Oh, don't do this, don't dothat.
It's not safe to do this, notsafe to do that.
And sometimes for good reasonit wasn't safe for me to do this
or that.
But now, if I'm in a place inan organization where I'm
(09:24):
telling myself I shouldn't drawa boundary, I shouldn't speak up
for what I want or whatever,and I am finding that that is
not making me happy, then I wantto go inside and say, okay,
what is it inside of the personfirst that is telling them they
shouldn't?
And then I want to challengethat thing.
(09:44):
I want to say, why shouldn't I?
Is it true that I shouldn't?
Is this organization not goingto take that?
Or is it going to put me in aplace of harm?
There's all these, there areall of these places we operate
from that we don't everchallenge.
unknown (10:01):
Yeah.
Julie Booksh (10:01):
And so I want to help people challenge, okay, is
this true first?
And okay, well, no, it's nottrue, but I still feel terrified
to do it.
All right, well, now it's stufflike that.
So the inner system that'sgoing on inside of us all the
time is one that is oftenoverlooked, especially, I
shouldn't say especially inorganizations, especially
(10:22):
everywhere.
Um, but we don't think ofourselves as a system.
We don't think that there's awhole system going on inside of
us of different voices thatwe've internalized.
And um, this is where theself-compassion part comes in,
that we don't we have to developmany of us, a compassionate
part of us, because so many ofus were taught to um grow
(10:46):
through self-criticism.
Jay Johnson (10:49):
You know, and I love this because I as you're
talking through this, and youknow, one of the things that I
study is like theneurobiological patterns of
behavior, right?
So something occurs long, longtime ago, our hippocampus starts
going, ah, that was scary, wedon't want that again.
And then all of a sudden,anytime that that you know
(11:11):
potential risk is out there, apattern of behavior starts
playing.
And if we're thinking aboutshifting behaviors in the
workplace, we really do need tobe thinking about what are those
underlying patterns?
Where do they show up?
And what's driving those?
So the the the fact that we'rethe fact that what you're saying
is raising that awareness towhere might this be coming from?
(11:33):
And then really digging in onthat question of is this
actually serving me?
Is this is this creating theconditions for my success?
Is this creating the conditionsfor conflict?
Is it creating the conditionsfor my anxiety and my burnout?
Is it you know all those voicesinside?
Yeah.
Julie Booksh (11:51):
All of that, you know, my anxiety, my burnout.
We we live in a culture thatlooks at the at those things as
bad.
Like if I'm feeling anxious, ifI'm feeling burnt out, it must
be because I'm doing somethingwrong, right?
Or I haven't healed enough, orall the other bullshit that gets
thrown at us that makes italways feel speaking of system.
(12:11):
If I could really zoom out andlook at our cultural system, I
would define it like this it's asystem that throws things at us
that says, do this, this, andthis and this, and you will be
well.
You will be successful, youwill have money, you will be in
the right shape, you you know,all the all the things.
(12:31):
You will have the right amountof energy, you won't be tired,
all this stuff.
Well, that is a very rigiddefinition of what it means to
be well.
Okay, so what happens is thesystem throws all these things
at us and says, do these things,you'll be well.
And if you aren't well, it'sbecause you must be doing
(12:55):
something wrong.
You must be procrastinating,you must not be setting
boundaries, you must be doingthis or not doing that.
Instead of questioning thewhole system, it's built on this
shaming thing of this is myfault.
There's something else I needto do, there's something I'm not
doing enough of.
And this is why self-compassionis such a huge thing for me in
(13:18):
my work, because I see this kindof shaming thing everywhere.
Um, it so, so that's a systemthat needs to be looked at too.
If I am burnt out, is itbecause I'm doing something
wrong?
No.
If I'm feeling anxious, insteadof treating that with a lot of
care and compassion, there's alot of, oh, we'll do this to fix
it.
Like it's something wrong inthe first place, when most
(13:41):
people have really good reasonsto be anxious.
Jay Johnson (13:43):
Right.
Well, you know, when I think ofburnout, burnout's simply an
early warning system telling yousomething worse is coming if
you don't take action.
And I I agree with you.
I hear that language of we needto get rid of burnout or you
know, nip burnout out.
And when when we're talkingabout burnout, we're like,
actually, burnout's less abouthow much work you're doing.
(14:05):
It's usually more about theresentment that you feel, either
from an isolation standpoint, avalue standpoint, or anything
else.
So I really want to dig intothis self-compassion because
number one is I would say Idon't know that it's it's well
defined for people.
So maybe if I could startthere, what does self-compassion
(14:27):
look like from Julie'sperspective?
Julie Booksh (14:30):
Well, first of all, I have to say the question
makes me want to close my eyesand slow down just hearing it.
And and and for me, that's kindof part of what it is for me.
Now it's going to land oneverybody differently, but to
define it, I would say that itmeans number one, being aware of
(14:54):
how I am, and then two,acknowledging it.
And then three, I would say itwould be treating it with
kindness instead of how do I fixit?
So kind of like I always usethe uh the analogy of if I could
(15:15):
talk to myself the way I talkto my puppy, then I am at the
self-compassion.
I'm at I've I've I've reallydone a lot of good work, right?
Or for some people it might bea baby the way I would talk to a
baby, or even a good friend.
The way we meet ourselves whenwe're struggling, is how I
(15:37):
define self-compassion.
And a compassionate stance, acompassionate stance says this,
you know, say say say I'mstruggling with something, I'm
afraid of something, whatever,name anything is to acknowledge
that one, I'm I'm afraid, I feelafraid.
So I'm acknowledging how I'mdoing, how I am, and I'm not
(16:00):
meeting that with a bunch of,oh, I need to fix this, blah,
blah, blah.
I'm saying, I almost say, Itell people, when I can say to
myself, oh, sweetheart, you'refeeling sad or angry or scared.
And it's hard.
It's hard to feel that.
To acknowledge, like I'm havinga moment of struggle.
(16:21):
That is compassion.
To acknowledge it, and to say,it's okay to it's okay to
struggle.
You're not the only one in theworld that struggles by any
means.
And that this is hard.
It's hard to feel this.
Jay Johnson (16:40):
So to Okay, go ahead.
I was gonna ask a question, andand I and I'm loving this.
I I really like I really likehow you framed that because I
I'm thinking about this, and andI'll I'll just share a little
bit of my background.
I was a junior hockey player, Iwas pretty competitive, then I
went into debate, then I wentinto mixed martial arts.
(17:02):
It was always, you know,forward, forward, forward,
fight, fight, fight.
It was no flight, there was nofeint or anything else.
And, you know, and this is notany criticism of my family, but
growing up, it was just like uhif I screwed something up, it
was like, come on, get your headin the game, do better, you're
better than this, move forward.
And it was just, it was, it wasand and I found that to be
(17:26):
mostly motivating.
There's definitely points andtimes when I've had to pull back
from that and be like, allright, slow down, stop, stop
beating yourself up on this.
But uh, how how common is itfor somebody to kind of walk
through that space of beinglike, oh Jay, you're better than
this.
Come on, get your get your shittogether.
Or you know, something of thatnature where it's just like
(17:49):
really kind of, you know.
Julie Booksh (17:52):
Oh, it's so common, Jay.
This is the this is the so whatyou're talking about is like
the perfect example.
I was also an athlete.
I played volleyball andsoftball, and um very
competitive.
I've I'm still competitive ifI've if I I haven't played a
sport in a long time.
I'm looking to get into one,but um, I'm I'm very
competitive, and that has beenmostly a really good thing.
(18:16):
Um but when we internalize avoice and it's the only voice
and that doesn't let up, itbecomes like an inner criticism.
It's some, you know, we'renever enough, we're never doing
enough, we're never performingat the right level.
It is so common.
This is why I think one of mymost popular classes I teach is
(18:39):
how to tame your inner criticbecause we don't, and again,
it's it's not only yourindividual story, we live in a
society that is about the grindand powering through, and all
you know, strength andstrength's definition is only
one definition, andvulnerability is not strong, you
know.
We're seeing this change, yeah,but most of us grew up in a you
(19:03):
know, be strong, power through,don't show your emotions, it's
weak to cry, all of thesethings.
So it's extreme.
I have never met a person umthat I that I don't hear an
inner critic in.
I've never taught a class wherethe topic of an inner critic or
a pressure maker for differentpeople, it has different
(19:25):
nuances.
Um I've never I've never beenin a class, even when the topic
wasn't inner criticism, wherethis does doesn't come up.
Jay Johnson (19:34):
Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense.
And I'm even I and as my brainstarts to to go in all the
different directions.
I'm thinking of those peoplethat are out there that suffer
from severe imposter syndrome,like, I don't belong here, or
you know, the inner voice going,you don't belong here.
What are you doing?
Get out of this space.
I've experienced that once ortwice.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Yeah, once or twice.
Jay Johnson (19:57):
Once or twice.
And you know, that that innercritic of saying, Well, you
know, what about the and andmaybe let's take this one
because I see this very often inwork cultures, the comparison
trap.
You've got one manager who'slooking at another manager and
saying, Oh, I should be at thatlevel, or I should be doing
(20:19):
this, or gosh, why am I not, youknow, keeping up with this
person?
And there's always this sort oflike comparison between
ourselves and somebody else inthe workplace.
So these are all examples ofthat inner critic that you're
speaking to.
How does how doesself-compassion like how does
that work?
How does that function to startremoving sort of the impetus
(20:43):
behind that inner critic?
Julie Booksh (20:45):
Yeah.
Well, first I have to tell youthat the whole time you were
kind of explaining the question,I kept thinking of myself when
I was younger saying, I'm not mysister, I'm not my sister.
So for some of us, it goes wayback, the comparison thing.
And it doesn't even necessarilylike I can honestly say, I
(21:05):
don't, my parents must have beentelling me something that I was
responding to, but I could Ican't say that they were like
comparing me all the time, butit's in the water of our
culture.
So um, self-compassion.
So the so inner criticism,there are a few different ways
uh, because we don't want tohave a shame around inner
(21:26):
criticism either.
Like, how can you not have aninner critic if you grew up in
this country?
So um, right.
So there are a few phases ofit.
Like one is learning torecognize it, because so many of
us think that voice is justlike the normal voice, that it's
a strong voice, and we don'trealize the impact it's having
(21:47):
on us emotionally, physically,spiritually.
Um, so one is recognizing it,two is starting to talk back to
it and question it, like I wastalking about before.
And the third piece for me, butit's not in this order, is the
self-compassion part because Icould just take the first two
out for a minute.
(22:08):
And if I wanted to just onlyfocus on the third one, what it
does is it starts to create avoice inside of us that's not
just the pressure maker, pusher,inner critic.
So many of us have that voiceas the dominant voice, and all
of these other parts of us don'tget airtime, so to speak.
(22:32):
Um, they don't get to push backand say, I'm tired, because the
voice is like, well, it has areason you shouldn't be, or so
what?
You're supposed to be tired ifyou're gonna be successful or
whatever.
So the self-compassion piecestarts to create space, even if
(22:52):
it's 30 seconds a day.
It's 30 seconds more than whatmost people have, where I can
let myself slow down and checkin with how I'm feeling, and
honoring how I'm feeling, sayingit's okay how I'm feeling, how
(23:15):
I'm feeling is okay.
It might be difficult, it'sokay that it's difficult, and so
it's creating space and a uhhow would I say a voice that can
hold I'm gonna say tension forright now without having to fix
(23:38):
it, without having to improve.
It's a very loving stance.
And I think most of us arecaught in the stance of go, go,
go, go, go, go, go, and doing,doing, doing, performing,
performing, performing.
And and part of that iswonderful.
Like we want to do all thesethings, we have all these ideas,
or and it's great.
But when other parts of us andour body is one of the first
(24:00):
places that might say, ouch, youknow, like this hurts, ouch,
why?
So self-compassion starts tobuild that space in us that a
lot of us don't have, becausemost of us were never really
taught it.
Jay Johnson (24:16):
Let's talk about shame for just a second.
Because, you know, when wethink about, so a big part of a
big part of what I like to studyis like, okay, well, what was
the adaptive purpose of theseemotions, right?
Like if we think aboutevolutionary biology, the things
that we have with us served usover the course of our time on
(24:38):
this planet.
So I know that shame, I mean,shame was actually one of the
social cues that said, hey, youdid something wrong.
You feel shame for it.
So that way you don't do thatsomething wrong again.
And it creates the, you know, abetter social structure when
you're when you actually havesome level of shame.
(24:58):
But it seems to me that weoften sort of like overdo it
with shame.
So there's this balance ofwhere it can be adaptive and it
can also be maladaptive.
And it seems to me that a lotof shame or maladaptive shame,
overuse of it tends to createsome levels of rumination, or we
just kind of dig back into itor keep reliving it and over and
(25:21):
over and over again.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Yeah.
Jay Johnson (25:24):
If I was to ask, and and I'm not asking you to
quantify or anything else, butwhat were your what are your
thoughts when it comes to okay?
So there's there is some levelof shame that can be a good
thing.
Julie Booksh (25:36):
I'm gonna push back on that.
Okay, I'm gonna differentiate.
I'm gonna say no, there isn't,but I'm gonna differentiate
this.
I think what you are talkingabout is guilt, and to me, guilt
and shame are two differentthings.
Okay, okay, so I think what youwere describing for me more
falls under the guilt category.
Shame is a different beast.
(25:59):
Um, shame is a you're not goodenough, you're not worthy,
you're a bad.
Not not you did something bad,right?
Um, you are bad, you areworthless, you are not worthy.
That's shame.
Jay Johnson (26:17):
So more of the core, yeah.
Like I as an individual, not mybehavior was bad, but right I
as an individual are bad.
Julie Booksh (26:25):
All right, I can I can definitely I can see I
think there needs to be someseparation between that because
when because what you're sayingis correct, like it's it's if I
do something and it harmsanother person, it's a healthy
thing to be to to feel a littlebad about that or a lot bad
about that.
But what self-compassion helpsyou do is it helps you say, Yes,
(26:53):
that that it's difficult tohurt somebody else, but it
doesn't make you bad.
It's self-compassion helps youlearn how to be accountable
without being awful, you know.
So I can be accountable for mybehavior, I can be accountable
for my actions, and all ofthat's really important.
(27:15):
Shame actually prevents peoplefrom being accountable because
it just brings them straightinto your piece of shit.
Jay Johnson (27:23):
Sure.
And then the defense mechanismscome up and the pattern.
Julie Booksh (27:28):
And there's no ability to be accountable
because I'm just such in thisterrible place that I'm just
trying to fight feeling liketotal shit.
Jay Johnson (27:39):
So from the from the shame versus guilt
perspective, and and when we andI, you know, I like I like the
separation of those two thingsbecause when if I'm thinking
about like the individual aspectof it, now uh let's say that I
were to take a perspective of uhI am not, and and let's let's
(28:01):
play with this.
So I'm gonna nuance this just alittle bit for us.
Please, I am a terriblemusician.
You give me a guitar, and I amgonna screw it up.
I am awful, I am, I am bad.
Okay.
Now, where does that fall interms of like this
self-criticism, self-loathing?
(28:21):
Not it's obviously not shame.
I can I can honestly tell youyou don't want me playing a
guitar in one of your and you'resmiling when you tell me,
right?
Speaker 1 (28:30):
That's part of what tells you it's not shame.
Jay Johnson (28:32):
It's just like it's just yeah.
So how do we how do we parcelthis out?
Because I think that there aresome people that'll be like,
okay, well, if I'm not, youknow, if I'm not necessarily
going to feel shame, does thatmean that I'm not recognizing
when I do bad things or when I'mnot capable of something?
Or where does this come intolike the questions?
(28:52):
I guess really what I'm gettingdown to is where does it come
into the question of ego?
Julie Booksh (28:57):
Hmm.
Okay, well, ego, man, Jay, weneed three hours for these
questions.
Oh, okay, so ego gets a badrap.
And I I understand why.
When we're in our ego and we'reonly in our ego, and we have no
connection to our deeper selfthat knows that not everything
(29:21):
is about ego and feeling, youknow, safe, meaning, you know,
I'm never wrong, or I don't takerisks, or whatever.
So if I am too connected oroverly connected with my ego,
and I'm only in my ego, and Ican't ever feel bad because then
(29:43):
I lose my sense of importanceor not even support not even
importance, my sense of worth.
Right.
Then I'm totally wrapped up inmy ego and only my ego, where I
am only um able to value myselfthrough my level of perfection,
(30:03):
really.
So it's a trap, right?
Now I think where ego gets abad rap is our ego needs to be
in conversation with our deeperself.
The goal is not, oh, let's getget it rid of the ego.
I mean, ego is not bad, it'spart of what drives us.
But we want it to be, remember,I was talking about the
(30:27):
different parts of us and likeinner diversity, being aware
that we're made of multipleparts.
And we want to build theseparts in us, like the self
compassionate part, the innerhealer, so to speak.
The inner therapist.
So you want the ego to be ableto communicate and be in
relationship with the deeperself that knows if I screwed up,
(30:49):
it doesn't mean I'm a terribleperson, it means I'm human.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Love that.
Julie Booksh (30:56):
That's what it means.
It means I'm human.
I don't know a soul who has nothurt another person.
Jay Johnson (31:03):
Right?
So let's take this to thatleadership side now, because I
think that there are a lot ofleaders out there that expect
themselves to know everything,expect themselves to make every
right decision, expect and ithonestly, like whether you're in
a leadership title where thereis a lot of stress, maybe
(31:24):
there's high stakes, maybethere's risks.
But I mean, most people I stillthink also kind of expect
themselves to, you know, expectthey do feel shame when, oh, I
don't know, or the ability toadmit I don't know, or I can't
do that, or anything else likethat.
But for leaders, we know thatthere's usually consequences to
(31:47):
their decisions.
Consequences not just forthemselves, but for a company,
for their teams, for theiremployees, for whomever it might
be.
Um, we know that a lot of timesleadership can be really,
really lonely where you feellike you're only the only person
that's managing whatever theissue, risk, or you know, uh
change management that's coming,etc.
(32:08):
So, from a leadershipperspective, how can we maybe
help them to move a little bitmore towards that
self-compassion, that ability toopen up and say, okay, um, you
know, I need help.
Julie Booksh (32:23):
Yeah.
Well, first of all, if ifyou're trying to move in that
direction, um, and you know youhaven't really lived in that
direction, number one,understand it's going to feel
uncomfortable.
It's going to feel vulnerableand it's going to feel risky.
And so I want to have a lot ofcompassion around those
(32:43):
feelings.
Like it's okay that this feelsrisky.
It's hard, it's uncomfortable.
I don't like it.
But I I'm I'm here.
I it's almost like you'rewitnessing yourself with
compassion instead of witnessingyourself with shame.
I am acknowledging this, thisis hard.
I'm here.
(33:04):
We've got this.
It's like you're creating apartnership with your inner
compassion part.
So one, I want to frame it likeit's gonna feel uncomfortable.
That's okay.
That's okay.
Two, I also I want to say, as aleader, if we just stay on the
intellectual side withself-compassion, self-compassion
(33:28):
helps leaders create a morepsychologically safe environment
because they can say, I don'tknow.
They can make mistakes and theyknow it doesn't mean they're a
bad leader, because they have acompassionate part that says,
uh, I screwed up and I'm not apiece of shit.
(33:50):
I'm human.
I screwed up and I'm human.
And what it does when a leadercan say, I don't know, let's
take a breath, let's think aboutthis, let's not have to know
for a minute.
Or when they can say, I screwedup and I want to make sure
people know that I've ownedthat.
(34:11):
It makes other people feelsafer to do the same thing, to
to own, I screwed up.
So it creates an environmentwhere perfection isn't the goal,
and it makes it safe whenperfection doesn't happen.
And it actually makes peoplemore creative in that kind of
(34:35):
environment.
So self-compassion as theleader.
When I when I'm a leader, andbecause to me, everybody's a
leader.
Now I totally recognize whatyou're saying.
People in certain leadershippositions, it's lonely at the
top, there's a larger level ofresponsibility.
But as a leader, when I cansay, wow, I'm feeling nervous
(34:55):
about this, let me just take abreath, um that ripples out
where people can say, Oh, likeit's okay to feel a little
nervous, and I, you know, I'mgood.
I can feel nervous and still dowhatever I need to do.
So it really is a huge piece.
(35:16):
But if if I am notcompassionate toward myself as a
leader when I screw up, andpeople know that, then that's
the culture I'm creating.
That when people screw up, I'msupposed to be really mean to
myself and hard on myself.
And self-compassion does notmean that I'm not accountable.
It's actually the thing thathelps me be more accountable
(35:38):
because I can say I'm human, Iscrewed up.
It doesn't mean I'm bad.
Jay Johnson (35:43):
Right.
And it probably reduces theamount of resistance that we
have just internally for our foracknowledging andor taking
ownership on something.
Julie Booksh (35:54):
Exactly.
Jay Johnson (35:55):
You know, from that perspective, when we think
about, you know, what what'screated these patterns?
And I I look back and I'll justuse my own personal example,
but I do know for a long time,and and and I'm gonna admit,
what created this pattern too isis not my team, but it was me.
(36:16):
But at one point in time, therewas an element where like it
was everybody was coming to mefor permission or coming to me
for this and that.
And it was this was on me 100%.
And I'm gonna I'm gonna acceptthat ownership and
responsibility.
But I can see how leaderssometimes start to get into that
space of thinking, well, youknow, the team's counting on me,
(36:38):
everyone's counting on me, andI've made a mistake.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Yes.
Jay Johnson (36:42):
So when we're in that cycle, let's let's talk
pre-making the mistake, and wefeel already that the team is
just counting on me.
Help us walk through how can weas a leader maybe fix that.
And I don't mean fix that as ithas to go away or anything
(37:03):
else, but how can we maybesoften that?
Because when the mistakeoccurs, we don't want to be that
we don't want to be worryingabout it then.
So let's say before the mistakehappens or whatever the you
know the the incidents are thatcreates the conditions, we're
feeling like the whole teamrelies on us.
How do we start navigatingthat?
Julie Booksh (37:23):
Okay, so you're feeling pressure, is what I'm
saying.
Okay, I'm feeling all thispressure.
Oh, that's a beautiful example.
Oh, that's really a beautifulexample.
And I and this is what I'mperfect example of like just
ways when I can start to createthe habit of checking in with
myself, right?
(37:43):
Because I'm in the story ofeverybody's counting on me.
I have to, I am I'm feeling sothe the first part is I'm
feeling stressed out usually.
I'm feeling stressed out.
Okay, well, that's a hugedescriptor.
Tell me more about I'm feelingall this pressure, and I want to
(38:04):
stop, and I I want to say, wow,I'm feeling all this pressure.
Acknowledge how I'm feeling.
One that part alone is hugebecause I'm inside myself now.
I'm not just this machinethat's pushing myself forward,
I'm noticing me.
I feel all this pressure.
(38:24):
Okay.
Jay Johnson (38:25):
As you were getting me to this step one, too, like
I'm putting myself because I'veput a lot of pressure on myself
in the past in differentinstances.
So as you were saying that, Istarted to put myself into that,
and then I went back to youroriginal question of like, is
this because somebody else isputting the pressure on me, or
is it me putting the pressure onmyself?
(38:47):
If I went to my team and said,Hey, do you expect me to know
everything, do everything, beeverything, live everything?
Would they say, Yeah, Jay, Ido?
No, they wouldn't, you know.
Julie Booksh (38:59):
Right, you know, it's an important distinction.
Like, and then this is what I'msaying.
If we slow down and just get alittle curious, yeah, hey, is
this pressure coming fromoutside, or is the pressure
coming from inside?
And people's bodies, I do a lotwith body listening to our
bodies will often because somepeople will say I have a
pressure headache.
And I will say, Does thepressure feel like it's coming
(39:21):
from outside, or does thepressure feel like it's pushing
in, pushing out from inside?
The body will often mirror.
So the first part isacknowledging, like I feel this
pressure and and beingcompassionate.
Of course, I feel pressure.
Like some people will feelpressure and they think they're
wrong to feel pressure.
There's no wrong feeling.
What you're feeling is smart.
(39:43):
Your feelings are smart.
So I'm feeling this pressure.
Man, so much pressure.
It's it's hard to feel all ofthis pressure.
It takes the pressure down.
And that's not the goal whenI'm doing it.
The goal is caring for myselfin a way that actually sees me
(40:04):
and doesn't just look at me as amachine that has to jump
through all these hoops foreverything and everyone.
So the self-compassion, I'mfeeling pressure.
Okay, it's okay.
Of course, you're feelingpressure.
You're in charge of thismassive organization, or you're
in charge of this conflict, oryou cause this conflict,
whatever it might be.
(40:25):
Um now I'm thinking of marriageand family again in my own
life, and the pressure I put onmy husband, or whatever.
Um, but acknowledging how I'mfeeling and and again reminding
myself that of course I'mfeeling this.
I I'm human, I'm supposed tofeel things.
(40:46):
Yeah, a lot of differentthings, not just all the good
things.
Jay Johnson (40:52):
Where did we as a species start to get into
repression?
Like, where did that come from?
Why do we try to push thesefeelings down?
Because and I will tell you,yes, I came from a family where
it's like, suck it up,buttercup, get back out there,
put it away, and don't you worryabout it.
So I am definitely a product ofthat environment.
But with that being said, likewhat was the adaptive and and I
(41:16):
don't know that I'm asking youto truly answer this question,
but uh, what's your thoughts onthat?
Like, where did this become theadaptive response, which is
completely maladaptive to ouractual like happiness, joy, or
expression of real emotion?
Julie Booksh (41:31):
Yeah, I I have two answers.
One, I'm gonna answer, and Idon't have the answer, like you
said.
I first want to talk personallyfor me, and again, this is an
incomplete answer, but it's astart.
I grew up in strict religion,and strict religion.
This is I think why I'm sopassionate about
self-compassion.
(41:51):
I I never learned how to bekind to myself or love myself.
That was all for other people.
Be kind to other people, loveother people, meanwhile, keep
track of your sins and go reportthem, you know.
Okay, so there's not a lot ofcompassion in that.
So I grew up in a strictreligion where it was always
about staying in line, followingthe rules.
(42:13):
And if you veered from therules, you had to go report
yourself to a priest and youknow, get absolved and all of
these things.
So, I mean, we're laughingabout it, and it's great to
laugh about it, but it cancreate an inner monster.
Yeah, like you know, God isalways watching you, making sure
you're choosing right orchoosing wrong, and your eternal
(42:35):
um life depends on yourchoices, whether you end up in
fire or in clouds.
Okay, so there's a real for menow.
Lots of people are religiousand don't have that, but in the
way, but lots of people do.
Um so that is an inner criticthat's almost guised as God.
(42:57):
Like, how do you challengethat?
So for some people, badreligion is one place, and the
other thing I want to share is Iremember, and I hope I'm
getting this right.
Um, the author Susan Kane.
I don't know if you've heard ofher, but she um her first book,
I think it was her first book,was called Quiet.
(43:17):
And it was all about introvertsin the workplace.
And in in the book, as she'skind of laying out some
historical things, she talksabout the Dale Carnegie era era
and how it became a culture ofpersonality, like you were this
persona, and how at the sametime anxiety meds went up in men
(43:41):
because they had to put on thisshow.
Now it's hard for me to saythat men didn't have anxiety
before that, but this salesculture of be this charismatic
person that um I don't thinkgets on a stage and cries or
shows their vulnerabilities.
Uh, there was also an uptickwhere people lost they were
(44:07):
about being a personality, not aperson.
And I don't know that that'swhere it started because I think
it probably started long beforethat.
For me, it started like if Ilook at the history of religion,
I can see some of it in certainreligions, right?
Um, so I don't know the answer,but those are the first things
(44:28):
that pop in my head when you askthe question.
Well, and it's fascinating.
Jay Johnson (44:32):
Uh that I I love the answers because I I started
to think about that too, andit's almost like this like when
we have a prescriptive, almostum, this is how you're supposed
to be, right?
Whether that's godly, whetherthat is this is the macho, you
know.
Uh and I was thinking like uhas you were talking about, I was
(44:53):
thinking like the Sean Conneryof the 1970s or 80s, this is
what a man is, and you knowthose sort of like almost like
lofty, over high, overly highexpectations, and it comes down
to again a little bit of thecomparison trap, like oh, I'm
not like that.
Why I gotta just toughen up orwhatever, and then that's insert
(45:17):
feminism, right?
Julie Booksh (45:18):
So women are trying to get more uh access to
certain positions, and they haveto act that way, yeah.
Right.
So they're playing in amasculine world.
I don't mean male, although inthis case that also applies, but
like the way if I'm going to bein this world and I'm gonna be
(45:39):
able to compete and get to thelevels that I want to get to,
that that's the model of how todo it.
I mean, look at the difference,like even like look at
politics.
Like, you know, I rememberafter Hurricane Katrina, um, I
I'm from New Orleans, um, thegovernor at the time, uh Blanco,
(46:00):
Kathleen Blanco, she cried atthe podium at one of the press
conferences after HurricaneKatrina.
Jay Johnson (46:09):
Seems like an appropriate response.
Julie Booksh (46:12):
Thank you.
And people were not having it.
And I'm like, our city isdestroyed.
Like, how are we?
I mean, everybody's crying,everybody's all always also
trying to put things backtogether and happy as a
community to be together andmourning the loss of life and
(46:33):
all kinds of things.
How do you not cry?
Jay Johnson (46:37):
And but as a governor, she shouldn't have
cried, was the so there's thismentality that as an title all
of a sudden just revokes or youknow, c takes away any emotional
capacity that you're exactly,and quite frankly, I think that
I think if some of thepoliticians cried a little bit
(46:58):
more or actually demonstratedsome of their emotional
self-compassion, we might not beuh as divided as we are as a
country, yeah.
Julie Booksh (47:09):
Yes, exactly.
If we could see each other'shumanity, yeah, right, and here
we are back to self-compassion.
But we were taught somehow, andI don't know where, Jay, but
somewhere we were taught likethis is what strength is
supposed to look like, this iswhat leadership is supposed to
look like, and all of it justkept taking being human out of
(47:32):
it.
And there's no psychologicalsafety in that for the
environment, right?
So in organizations, peoplefeel safer.
I I tell my mentor, so one timeshe forgot like our appointment
or something, and we get on thephone, she's like, Oh, I had it
the wrong thing.
And I just smiled, and she'slike, What are you smiling at?
I'm like, I love it when youscrew up because it just makes
(47:55):
me feel so much morecomfortable.
Jay Johnson (47:59):
So I I love this, and you know, this is this is
one of those things, and I thinkthat uh with your permission,
I'd like to invite you back atsome point in time so we can
talk a little bit more aboutpsychological safety.
I know we really kind of dug inon the self-compassion side.
Um, you know, because thesethings are linked, and these
things have an impact on us asindividuals and also these
(48:22):
systems, whether that system'sfamily, whether that system's
culture, whether that system is,you know, even just our social
political environment out there.
Is there any kind of finalthoughts that you would leave?
I know that we've talked a lotabout a lot, you know, being
aware of it, sitting with it,being able to take and these are
those takeaways for theaudience, you know, take it, you
(48:44):
know, sitting with it, beingaware of it, having some of
that, hey, I'm human and I havea right to feel these ways, you
know, recognizing that we're allfeeling this way, whether
whether people are showing it ornot, unless they're a complete
psychopath, they're probablyfeeling, you know, very, very
similar things.
Julie Booksh (49:02):
I don't know anyone who isn't struggling in
some way.
Jay Johnson (49:05):
Right, right.
Yeah.
Julie Booksh (49:08):
Uh my my I would say two things.
One is that self-compassion forme is the foundation of
psychological safety.
unknown (49:20):
Yeah.
Julie Booksh (49:21):
First inside of myself, but then inside of if
I'm a leader or the leader of afamily or whatever it is.
Um so it can't just be whenwhen I listened and learned and
learned from researchers onself-compassion, they always say
when they go into companies andteach about it, the employees
(49:42):
always want to know are themanagers gonna get this class
too?
Because they the managers arethe ones who set the tone.
They're the ones that have therank and the power to set the
tone for the psychologicalsafety.
So you can't just say, Oh, Iwant my my team to know they
(50:04):
don't have to be perfect, butthen I'm walking around not able
to let myself make mistakes orwhatever.
So that's like an incongruentmessage.
So self-compassion, even inleadership, is the foundation of
psychological safety.
And I forgot the second thingthat I was gonna say, Jay, but
here we are.
Jay Johnson (50:23):
Well, here, I'll ask, I'll ask the question for
the second thing.
If our audience wanted to getin touch with you, Julie, and to
talk through some of theseissues, how would they reach out
to you?
Julie Booksh (50:33):
My website is my name, juliebooks.com.
And I am on Instagram and I'mon Facebook, but through my
website is probably the best wayto reach out to me.
And I want to mention, since wetalked about it, I do have a
free PDF on my website about theinner critic and how to tame
the inner critic that talksabout what you and I talked
(50:54):
about, um, how to deal withthat.
And there is aself-competition,
self-compassion piece of that inthat document.
So if anybody wants that,please help yourself.
Jay Johnson (51:05):
Amazing.
And we'll make sure that thatlink is in the show notes so you
can find it, audience.
Julie, I just want to say thishas been an awesome
conversation.
A little bit longer of anepisode, but I I think that we
could have probably, you'reright, gone for another two to
three hours on these topics.
Speaker 1 (51:20):
Yes.
Jay Johnson (51:21):
So I just want to say thank you so much for for
joining me today to startingthis conversation and for
sharing your your wisdom andinsights in these areas.
Really appreciate that.
Julie Booksh (51:32):
Thank you, Jay.
I agree.
It has been a wonderfulconversation, and I love your
your the depth of yourquestions.
So thank you.
Jay Johnson (51:39):
Yeah, my pleasure.
And uh, we'll definitely belooking to have you back and we
can further this and dig alittle deeper on that
psychological safety.
So thank you again, and uhthank you to the audience for
tuning into this episode of theTalent Forge, where together we
are shaping the future ofworkforce behaviors.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by Audiochuck Media Company.
The Brothers Ortiz
The Brothers Ortiz is the story of two brothers–both successful, but in very different ways. Gabe Ortiz becomes a third-highest ranking officer in all of Texas while his younger brother Larry climbs the ranks in Puro Tango Blast, a notorious Texas Prison gang. Gabe doesn’t know all the details of his brother’s nefarious dealings, and he’s made a point not to ask, to protect their relationship. But when Larry is murdered during a home invasion in a rented beach house, Gabe has no choice but to look into what happened that night. To solve Larry’s murder, Gabe, and the whole Ortiz family, must ask each other tough questions.