September 26, 2025 • 43 mins
The future of work hinges on our ability to keep it human—a powerful message from Jim Bouchard, who joins The Talent Forge to share his extraordinary journey from drug addiction to martial arts mastery and leadership coaching.
Jim's transformation began when he discovered martial arts during his recovery, unaware it would become a 30-year career and life philosophy. His martial arts teachers didn't just show him self-defense techniques; they revealed profound insights about human connection, continuous improvement, and responding to uncertainty.
Drawing fascinating parallels between martial arts training and effective leadership, Jim reframes our understanding of discipline as "the development, cultivation, and practice of meaningful and purposeful habits." This perspective shifts discipline from something restrictive to a positive framework for growth and development.
For HR professionals and talent developers facing increasingly complex workplace dynamics, Jim offers practical wisdom: ask broad questions, listen without judgment, and follow through on commitments.
Connect with Jim through thehumancentricleader.org to continue exploring how we can harness technology while honoring our fundamental human need for authentic connection.
Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jayjohnsonccg/
Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jay Johnson (00:01):
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where we are shaping the futureof training and development.
Today, I am joined by specialguest Jim Bouchard.
Welcome to the show, jim.
Jim Bouchard (00:11):
Hey, thanks, jay.
It's so good to be here and hey, the future is now right.
Jay Johnson (00:15):
Future is now and I want the audience to get to
know you, because your message,one of the big messages, and it
resonated with me the moment Iread it keep it human.
Your message, one of the bigmessages, and it resonated with
me the moment I read it keep ithuman.
And I think a lot of us intalent development and HR
sometimes forget about that.
And I think this is going to bea great conversation, but let's
get to know you a little bit.
How'd you get into this talentdevelopment space Completely by
(00:41):
accident, and that's my storytoo.
So please tell me, share yourstory.
Jim Bouchard (00:52):
Well, long story short, or somewhat short anyway.
First of all, I was a formerdrug addict, two-time college
dropout How's that?
Aren't you glad you invited menow.
Jay Johnson (01:02):
Absolutely.
Jim Bouchard (01:03):
Right, and part of my recovery was, uh, martial
arts.
I started to get involved inmartial arts so I didn't realize
that was an accident too.
I didn't realize that was goingto turn into a 30 plus year
career.
Um, and that was.
It was a wonderful, wonderfulexperience.
First of all, it saved my life,for one thing, but also it
taught me about a lot of the.
(01:23):
It taught me how, taught me howto make really genuine
connections with people on ahuman level.
I mean, that's what martial artsis all about sharing
information, and I believeleadership is about a lot of
things, but, above all,leadership is sharing, and a
leader shares.
The rest of the conversation isjust about what we're willing
to share and how we're willingto do it, which is at the heart
of HR and talent development,right?
(01:44):
So, anyway, people startedasking me to speak about the
philosophy of martial arts andhow it applied to real life and
especially life in business, andthat one thing led to another,
and that put me out on the roadspeaking and writing books and
doing things like that.
So here we are today, butthat's how it all gets started
and you know, at the heart of it, you know people perform at
(02:06):
their best when and I'd argue,only when they know their
leaders care and their work hasmeaning, and when they have a
chance to learn, to grow anddevelop.
And right, isn't that what youguys are all about?
Jay Johnson (02:16):
That's what you're trying to do, and so yeah, so
you know, I'm always, I'm alwaysglad to work with, with my
friends in hr.
(02:36):
You've got one of the toughestjobs on the planet, you're not
wrong, jim?
There's so much interestingthings that you just shared.
Okay, let me.
Let me get my brain undercontrol as I'm ready.
So I, I also studied martialarts.
I was a mixed martial artistfor nice, several years studied
in Brazilian jiu-jitsu, aikido.
How'd you stay so?
Pretty Well, actually.
The irony is I gave it up whenI got punched in the mouth,
cracked a tooth, and had to givea keynote the next day on
(02:57):
dealing with difficult peoplewith a half-whistling tooth.
So I decided to stop it at thatpoint.
Jim Bouchard (03:02):
Yeah, that is an average day in that trade.
Jay Johnson (03:05):
That's right.
So here's my question for you.
I loved what you said about theconnection between martial arts
and people and leadership, etcetera.
Can you dig into that just alittle bit?
I don't know that.
I've heard somebody bring thatto the forefront before.
Jim Bouchard (03:23):
Well, I think a lot of it had to do with.
I was blessed with some reallyincredible teachers and in fact,
on my podcast, on the Keep itHuman podcast, I just had a
reunion with Dr Yang Xun Ming,who was he is just one of the
teachers that probably in thetop three that I admire so much.
It had such a profoundinfluence on me and my work and
(03:43):
on my life.
First of all, it was wonderfulto learn martial arts from him,
but, more important, I thinkhe's one of the world's greatest
living philosophers and wehadn't spoken for almost 30
years and we kind of just pickedup where we left off.
And another, he was one thatalways encouraged.
(04:04):
You know that martial arts wasto enhance your life, not to
detract from it, right, and thatthese lessons, the lessons,
were about life, not just aboutpunching people in the head and
getting kicked in the face right.
And another influence on me,profound teacher Professor Nick
Serio, and he described thisbeautifully and I'm sure you'll
understand this.
He defined the attainment of ablack belt as the attainment of
(04:25):
a good learning attitude.
And he said most of all, you'relearning how to learn about
yourself and now take that andapply that out in the world to
take it outside the dojo.
You know, because once youlearn how to learn about
yourself, then you're on thepath for continual, you know,
personal development right,self-improvement.
So one of the greatest giftsthat I kind of extracted from
(04:45):
these wonderful teachers wasperfection is not a destination,
it's an ever-ending process,and the more we can embrace that
process right, then we're goingto become better people, we're
going to become better leaders,we're going to become better
resources to the people aroundus.
And ultimately, I think themost effective leaders have that
mindset right Always trying tolearn, grow, develop.
(05:10):
We call it martial arts, wecall it beginner's mind, which
is really the true mind of themaster Always curious, always
seeking, trying to improve.
Don't break your arm, trying topatch yourself on the back
right.
Jay Johnson (05:17):
That's right, you know, and I love that because
I've and I will share this.
So part of the reason I gotinto mixed martial arts was my
brother who had come back fromhis deployments as a ranger in
the army, had ended up startinga school and was working in Tong
Soo Do, Mu Da Kwan, Koreanmartial art, and he was like,
(05:39):
hey, will you come in and dothis?
And I started doing that andthen it kind of blossomed into.
I met a bunch of people inBrazilian jujitsu and so on and
so on and so forth, and Iremember, um, I did not have, I
did have in my brother anamazing teacher, but he was not
a philosopher, he used the stick.
Jim Bouchard (05:56):
So it was, it was uh, but you know, call it
brother, these guys could dothat from time to time, to
definitely tough toughened me up, but I love hearing about this
and I remember very clearly itwas.
Jay Johnson (06:08):
actually I ended up doing Tai Chi for like balance
and core strength and a numberof other things, not so much an
aggressive martial art, but Iremember that my instructor in
there was just so profound,didn't say all that much, but
when it was, it was like thinkof this as the you know the, the
flowing nature of how youremotions are working and things
like that, and it really didshift my thought process, not
(06:33):
even just from the martial artsperspective, but just like from
the world perspective, like thepush and pull and the give and
take and the ability to remainbalanced even when there's
adversity or something pushingagainst us.
I think there's a lot of lessonsthat can come from martial arts
and in thinking of the audiencehere.
So the trainers, the coaches,the HR practitioners out there,
(06:56):
what is maybe one or two lessonsthat you would share in
thinking of, that mentality ofalways being a learner or that
mentality of you know thediscipline that it takes to do
some of these things?
How would you help them thinkthrough that in terms of being
able to design, deliver or evendevelop some type of learning
experience for somebody?
Jim Bouchard (07:16):
Well, just in that few seconds, you opened up a
whole lot of cans of a whole lotof worms.
We could we could probably talkabout this for hours.
Cans of a whole lot of worms,we could probably talk about
this for hours.
One of the most profound thingsI think you just hit on was
this idea of the idea ofcontinual learning and
discipline.
Right, and that was anothergreat gift that I got from my
(07:37):
life as a martial artist, andI'll define that for people,
discipline to a martial artistis really the development,
cultivation and practice ofmeaningful and purposeful habits
, and there's a lot of work donein psychology now about that
right, about the benefit ofpositive habits.
That's part of the reason Ishare my experience as a drug
addict, because I had to learn.
(07:59):
Well, first of all, I used tothink that was a really lousy
resume for someone dealing withleadership.
I came to realize it was a veryuseful one.
Leadership is abouttransformation, right.
Transforming ourselves,transforming our organizations,
transforming the people aroundus.
If we're not changing, we'redying in this environment.
So it became a useful resume,and that who better to talk
about transformation thansomeone who had to learn it in
(08:20):
order to survive and stay out ofjail right, had to learn it in
order to survive and stay out ofjail right.
But along the way I learnedthat part of that transformation
process is to take to identifythe negative habits that we fall
into and we all do right andtry to cultivate and develop
positive habits that are goingto get us further along the road
, get us to our goals, whetherthat's advancing in your own
(08:41):
career, helping others as you dothrough training and
development, you know and bydiscipline I mean you know
that's things you check off on ato-do list I mean really
embedding these practices in ourlives.
What are we going to do everyday, every week, every month,
every year, and stay true tothat?
So that's a huge lesson there.
The other thing is I've beenasked lately in fact I'm going
(09:04):
out to Arizona next week to workwith a group for a couple of
days on uncertainty.
In our current environment,uncertainty is a big issue and
again we learned that frommartial arts.
The practice of martial arts isall about putting you in
chaotic situations, isn't it?
Particularly when we're workingwith self-defense?
We don't know what's coming, wedon't know where it's coming
(09:24):
from.
That's part of the fun.
Over time I came to realizewhat can you do?
I don't want to say reduceuncertainty I've corrected
myself from saying that over thelast few months, because I came
to the realization is thatuncertainty is an almost
infinite and inevitablecommodity.
It surrounds us all the time.
Right, I'd rather say how do wemanage and address the
(09:48):
uncertainty?
Not reduce it, not try to avoidit, because the uncertainties
where all the great stuffhappens.
You think about it.
One of the exercises we do inthe workshops I ask people to
think about some of theirgreatest victories, their
greatest triumphs, and afterthey identify this but what were
the conditions just before thathappened?
And more times than not, it wasa mess.
(10:12):
Things were a mess, it waschaotic.
I didn't know what was going tohappen.
It was disaster.
And then out of that came thetriumph.
You wouldn't feel that triumphif you didn't have the
challenges to face before.
So I know we've got to get thisT-shirt back out.
I had a T-shirt a while ago.
It said Celebrate Adversity.
It's your chance to discoverthe person you might not have
ever imagined without it.
(10:32):
That's nice.
I like that.
How do we do that?
And, like I said, in martialarts, on a very physical level,
we practiced that, didn't we?
And how do you address it?
How do you address it?
How do you manage it better?
Try to anticipate as manysituations as you possibly can,
right.
Try to imagine and it's hardfor some people Imagine the
worst case scenarios, thinkabout them and then design ways
(10:55):
to practice for that.
You might not know the specificcircumstances or conditions,
but look what we were jokingbefore the program about the
stock market, right, but lookwhat we were joking before the
program about the stock market.
Right Now, we might not knowwhat conditions or circumstances
lead to a variation in thestock market at a given time,
but we know it's going to happen.
We know the stock market'sgoing to go up.
We know the stock market'sgoing to go down.
(11:16):
We don't know when, we don'tknow how, we don't know why.
Jay Johnson (11:20):
But we know it's going to happen.
We're building some empiricalevidence that tariffs may have
that impact.
Jim Bouchard (11:26):
That's one of the things, right?
Yeah, Look at what happenedwith COVID.
We've had a lot of discussionsabout that.
I don't think very many of uspredicted a global pandemic, but
we can all think of situationswhere our cash flow was
interrupted, where our supplychain was interrupted, things
like that.
So we can prepare for thosethings.
And the more we train andprepare then the more we become
(11:49):
flexible and adaptable andcomfortable with uncertainty.
And we've got to learn to loveit.
I mean, and again, as martialartists, I'm sure you practice
jujitsu.
I'm sure you're cool that yourbrother did this.
I'm sure he put you into somesituations where you're being
turned into a human pretzel andsaying, how the hell did I end
up here?
Oh yeah, and then you have tomanage your way out of it.
(12:09):
When you reverse it, you get ontop.
That feels pretty good, doesn'tit?
It does.
Jay Johnson (12:18):
And what you're saying has so much wisdom behind
it that I tried to express toany audience that'll listen to.
This is the difference betweendebilitating stress or anxiety
and enhancing stress and anxiety.
Right, and, and as you said inyour, in your workshop, when you
ask them what was your stateright before this, they were in
(12:39):
that state of anxiety or stressbecause what they were about to
do matters and it has an impactand it's being able to kind of
take control of that and use itas that motivating fuel.
Yeah, when you are, and forthose of you that are not in
mixed martial arts, um, whenyou're in a vulnerable position
and they call it grounded andpounded, which is what I was
(13:02):
getting, uh, where you're onyour back and then aggressors on
top of you just raining downfire.
That's when a lot of people endup panicking.
And when we panic and don'tmanage it, well, you make a
mistake, you throw your arms upand the next thing you know
you're a pretzel.
Uh, when you don't panic andyou do what you've practiced
(13:23):
over and over and over again,you might have a chance of
getting out of there with yourface mostly intact, right, right
.
So I love how you bring thatinto this space, because it
makes a lot of sense and Ilearned not to panic under fire.
What are a couple of thingsthat you teach?
How do you help people grabcontrol of that uncertainty?
(13:44):
All that work?
Yeah, I remember some of thethings that I was taught that I
think that this will be one ofthose.
This is one of those things,because every one of these
trainers and HR people that arelistening have this moment of
panic when somebody is cominginto their office that they have
to deal with, or when they'restanding up there and delivering
a new training.
So getting a hold of thatuncertainty and managing it is
(14:06):
essential.
I love this conversation, jim.
So, please, what are some waysthat you would suggest that they
kind of take control?
Jim Bouchard (14:13):
Well, you just brought up that four-letter word
, control, right.
I'd rather emphasize power.
Philosophically, power is yourability or capacity to act or
perform effectively.
Right, control, that can bepretty elusive, huh.
And like I said, especially I'mglad you brought up HR friends,
because, you're right, somebodywalks into the office and we
(14:35):
don't know what's going on withthat person, we don't know the
circumstances and conditions.
We have to suss that all out.
We may have very little controlover any of those variables,
right, but what can we do?
Can we rely on our training inresponse, especially, like you
said, you're a behaviorist,right, can we train ourselves to
listen attentively, activelyI'm summoning my Carl Rogers now
(14:58):
right.
But to be able to respond topeople in their space, in their
time, to be most useful to them,that requires a lot of
discipline, that requires a lotof practice.
Right To reduce and but noteliminate.
Again, another four-letter wordfear.
I think too many people theyconfuse the panic.
(15:18):
It's inevitable.
We're going to be in situationssometimes where we panic, and
that's a natural response, isn'tit?
I mean, it's something, itactivates a lot in us.
We just don't want to get stuckin that moment, not for very
long, right, but if, hey, ifthere was an explosion outside
this door right now, I wouldpanic, for it would be my first
response.
Now, how do I get that undercontrol?
(15:44):
Breathe, get your body backwhere it needs to be in order to
respond, and we can trainourselves to do that quickly and
effectively.
And I'm not talking about inthe martial arts ring or boxing
ring right now.
Right, we could do that in thehr office as well, and these
aren't practices that should bea surprise to anybody, right?
I mean, these are very popularpractices.
Now, the other part of it isempowering others right and
again, and especially intraining and development, what
(16:06):
are you really doing?
You know what do people need tosucceed?
Are you?
Are you helping them get tothose resources?
That's what we're talking about.
We talk about empowering people.
Remember, I just said power isyour, is your ability or
capacity to act or performeffectively.
And a little while ago, I think, I said something about
leadership being sharing right.
Yet it's interesting how manypeople in leadership positions
(16:27):
are hesitant to share power,hesitant to share authority.
Yet these are the two things.
First of all, neither of thosethings can grow or expand in any
other way, but by sharing themright.
When I help someone else becomemore powerful, when I help them
get access to the resourcesthey need to perform effectively
and I'm doing it for manypeople, sometimes as a leader or
(16:50):
a manager well then I becomemore powerful.
I'm able to do more, and a lotof times through the efforts of
the people around it, peoplethat trust in my leadership,
right, so that's what we'rereally talking about there.
So, rather than power controland fear, you know some people
they talk about fearlessness.
Jeez, that's kind of dangerous.
This is your area, so I wouldprobably ask you.
(17:10):
I think there are clinicaldescriptions for people who lack
the capacity to be afraid, andI don't think that's a very
healthy condition, is it no?
Their?
life expectancy is not courage.
The absence of fear isstupidity.
Jay Johnson (17:24):
Yeah, their life expectancy is significantly
lower.
There's actually a couple ofdifferent neurological disorders
where the amygdala just doesn'ttrigger, doesn't activate in a
way that it does in, say,somebody, where we hear a loud
bang and we turn and we coverand we make sure that we're
protecting ourselves.
Jim Bouchard (17:42):
Exactly, it greatly increases our
probability for survival right,correct, correct.
Jay Johnson (17:47):
Hey, we evolved that system for a reason.
Yeah, yeah.
Jim Bouchard (17:52):
But that idea, like I said, absence of fear is
not courage.
Courage, in fact, is onlydefined by the fact that we're
facing a danger or risk or achallenge.
You know, um, it doesn'tnecessarily have to be a life
and death situation.
There's, there's differenttypes of courage.
I don't know if we have time toget into all that today, but
you know, moral courage,artistic courage, um, you know,
(18:13):
heroic courage, obviously that'sthe most obvious one, but still
it's.
It's only defined because we'refacing a challenge.
So how we face our fears, howwe respond despite our fears,
that's really what we define ascourage.
So, in fact, we just did asession where a few of the
people brought that up.
They thought that they hadn'tserved the younger generations
(18:37):
very well because they shieldthem from the risk.
Right, and I said no, exactlyright, you have to expose If you
want people to grow and develop, and if they didn't do it at
home, you're going to have to doit in the office, right, but
you've got to provideopportunities where there is a
chance of failure, where thereis some risk.
Of course you want to managethat risk if you're responsibly
(18:58):
running a company, but it needsto be there.
You need to put people inpositions where not setting them
up for failure, that's adifferent thing, but where
there's equal chance for failureand success.
Hey, I didn't want to open thatcan of worms.
I've got a hair across it aboutthis whole idea of failure
lately too, know, we've becomeso afraid of that.
(19:20):
Um, we were just arguing aboutscientific hypotheses like right
now, if, if they come up withsomething, a scientific like, so
let's just say they're testinga vaccine and they test and it
doesn't work, that's not afailure.
You see, that's part of theprocess of learning, and I
didn't fail to.
Jay Johnson (19:39):
I didn't fail to invent the light bulb 10 000
times.
I had 10 000 learningexperiences that got me to the
exactly, exactly.
Jim Bouchard (19:48):
And if we're not willing to do those experiments,
then we're stagnant.
And I don't know plenty of theelders said it, um, you know,
lao tzu said it how manydifferent ways.
The only constant life ischange.
If we're not willing to respondto that, we're in a whole lot
of trouble, right?
Jay Johnson (20:03):
Yeah, jim, you'll find this funny.
In regards to failure, Somethingput me down the pathway and I
my brain sometimes is my kind ofprimary areas.
I got pushed down the road ofethology, which is studying
animal behavior in its actualenvironment, in its actual
(20:25):
language.
And hearing some of the triedexperiments, like, for example,
trying to figure out how beesare able to, um, do a dance when
they come back to the hive totell their fellow bees how far
something is, what direction itis, how large the food source is
, and hearing about one of thestudies where they put a beehive
(20:47):
on a turntable and the beeswould return and then, when it
returned, they would turn theturntable just a little bit to
see if that threw off thedirection and what aspect of the
dance that ended up shifting.
And I'm sitting there thinkingto myself like how many times do
you have to fail in thatexperiment before you come to
the conclusion that this onesmall aspect is?
(21:09):
And so I love what you'resaying.
It's almost just thisinsatiable appetite of curiosity
to get us forward right, likethe.
Jim Bouchard (21:17):
Right, the right, right, okay, what's no?
And failure, failure is part ofthe data set.
And I'm not talking aboutnegligent failure, failure
either.
You know, you don't.
You don't want to promotepeople just making foolish
mistakes or careless mistakes.
That's not what we're talkingabout we're not going to learn
responsibly right, testing ideasand moving them forward.
And unfortunately too, you knownot not to get into the politics
of the day too much, but Ithink that's part of our
(21:41):
challenge right now with ourwhole political environment is
that we expect our politicalleaders to be infallible and any
mistake that they make isinstantly judged.
I think the whole cancelculture kind of arose around
that intolerance for failure.
Culture kind of arose aroundthat intolerance for failure.
And yet none of us can escapeit.
(22:03):
Even if we try, we're notinfallible.
Right Again we're back intoyour world.
But I don't think anypsychological data supports the
idea of an ideal, infalliblehuman being.
Jay Johnson (22:13):
Well and if you think about how we ourselves
want to look at ourselves as anadaptable and evolving, a
growing human being, but a lotof times we don't extend that
courtesy to people that areoutside of our skin.
Jim Bouchard (22:29):
Well, that's because I'm right and you're
wrong.
Jay Johnson (22:30):
That's right, so you know I want to dig into this
, though, too, because I thinkit's important that we spend
some time on the concepts ofkeeping it human, which you know
you started off by sharing avulnerable.
You know a vulnerable peek intoyour background and to how you
(22:50):
got from being a drug addict tobeing in the martial arts, to
being a leadership coach andwhat that journey looked like,
and I think that's reallypowerful right?
We know that vulnerability andvulnerability loops are what
create connections with people.
At some point in time you hadmentioned, you know, whether
it's that which created theconditions for a powerful
(23:12):
transformative story, or it's.
You know it could be anythingelse too.
It could be an injury thatcreated that condition.
It could be a life event thatcreated that condition.
Um, what is it that in thatstory?
How do you keep that human?
What is that human aspect thatyou are essentially creating the
(23:33):
conditions for somebody to findthemselves in?
What does that look like foryou?
Jim Bouchard (23:38):
Well, that's a really powerful question.
I think a lot of it has to dowith our need, our desire for
connection.
Right, you face a challengelike that, and a lot of times I
I'm going to speak personallyfrom the drug experience uh, and
I know I'm not alone in this alot of people that deal with
addictions can feel veryisolated.
Right, you can feel like I'mthe only one that has the
(24:01):
problems that led to myaddiction, because that's it too
.
You know, people look at theaddiction as the problem.
But again, you, you know I'mstepping into your world.
Most of the time there arecircumstances and conditions
that make us susceptible to theaddiction.
Right, it's not just that thedrugs are the problem.
The drugs are my way ofmedicating myself and feeling a
little safer and a little morecomfortable from the problems
(24:22):
that I didn't want to cope withor couldn't cope with at the
time.
So you know, when we'reisolated like that, cope with or
couldn't cope with at the time.
So you know, when we'reisolated like that, if we
survive it at some point werealize we can't do that alone.
We have to reach out for help.
We have to be willing to acceptthe help from others.
Right, and there's this desirefor connection.
Now, that's a pretty extremeexample of it, but I believe we
(24:42):
all need that connection and youknow, in studying a little bit
in your world, I think that'spretty well documented.
We're a social creature, weevolved to be a social creature.
So, for whatever reason, weneed one another and we need to
develop healthyinterdependencies.
Right, not codependence, buthealthy interdependencies.
And so that's really what it is.
That's what happens in aleadership relationship, right,
(25:09):
relationship.
Right.
We cultivate in fact, I kind ofdefine a leader as this someone
with the ability to attractwilling followers, which means
you do.
You know there's.
If you go on our website, you'llsee the three key words that
were emphasized all the time.
In fact, the title of my lastbook, ieg, inspire, empower
Guide.
I think you get the impressionalready.
I'm not lollipops and puppydogs here, right?
Okay, these aren't just prettywords.
It took a long time to reduceall this mishmash to what were
(25:33):
the three most powerfuldisciplines that a leader can
embrace, and I don't think wehave time for this, but I'd
argue that everybody's a leader,and why?
Because you inspire somebody,you touch their heart, not just
their heads, right, you empowerpeople around you, whether you
realize it or not, you get themthings they need in order to
fulfill their needs, their goals.
And we all guide somebody.
(25:55):
I work with incarcerated kidsand it's funny because I joke
with them a lot, I share thatphilosophy.
With them.
I say, you know, some of thosekids are really good at
inspiring, empowering andguiding their peers.
We've got to channel it in theright direction, sure, but yeah,
these things can be used forevil as well as for good.
But the important thing is thatthat's what we're doing.
(26:16):
And most important there, Ithink, is the idea of touching
people's hearts, not just theirheads, inspiring people.
And that speaks really to ourneed for human connection,
connection, because that's whatit's all about.
So now we've got a lot ofchallenges and, right, we've got
all kinds of divides.
I mean, we've got we've alwayshad generational divides and
racial divides and ethnicdivides, and now the political
(26:39):
divide is I wouldn't say it'sthe worst it's ever been, but
we're in one of those deepcycles of deep, yeah, right, um,
ai is freaking everybody out,right, embracing these new
technologies, um, all thesethings that can really reduce
our humanity or reduce ourcapacity to see another person
as as deeply human.
And I'd argue again this is oneof those ages where, hey,
(27:01):
people, great people, are goingto rise out of this, because the
more I think, more people payattention to the importance of
the human connection.
Because what's the point of allthis stuff?
Especially technology is aneasy one to wrap around right.
What's the point of all thistechnology if it's not to bring
us together?
We're already, I think we'removing through if not, I'm
hoping out of a phase where itseparated us a lot, even though
(27:21):
it shouldn't have.
But now can we use these toolsto at least to bring us together
and give us the time to connectwith each other on a more, on a
deeper level?
I mean, I use AI.
I use AI all the time to helpme with my writing and
correspondence and things likethat research, and it does give
me time.
But how am I going to use thattime?
Am I going to talk with Chad?
(27:42):
Do you name your chat GPT guy?
Jay Johnson (27:48):
I actually asked it to name itself, and its name is
Vex, which.
I was like I don't.
I don't know how I feel aboutthat, but all right, my wife did
that with hers.
Jim Bouchard (27:57):
She asked him to, but yeah, I don't know, I just
started calling mine chat, butanyway, it does give me more
time to think and to connectwith other people, and that's
what's important.
And if you doubt what I'm saying, well, call any customer
service line at a major companyin these days.
Right, I just got held upflying which happens a lot these
(28:20):
days, and, yeah, I'll say it,united Airlines because they've
been one of the roughest oneslately trying to find a human
being to talk to, and I finallyfound a wonderful human being.
It is a good outcome to thestory, but it took me a while to
get to a human being, right?
So people need to realize Ithink I'm going to do a lot of
work in customer service comingup, but I don't know if I'm the
(28:43):
only one, but I'm sick of beingin that endless feedback loop of
automation.
When I have an issue, right,it's fine, it streamlines.
When things are going good, wecan go in there, go online, do
our stuff right, but, boy, whenyou have a problem, don't you
want to talk?
Jay Johnson (28:56):
to a person A lot of times.
Well, and it's interesting thatyou bring this up, jim, because
I think we could spend anotherhour talking about sort of the
interactions and even some ofthe interesting research that's
happening right now about howpeople are creating connections
with AI because they feeldisconnected with others.
But I'm really appreciativethat you shared your story and
(29:17):
your experience in there, and soI've done some work with some
different addiction agencies andsupported them and coached them
in some of the behavioralpractices and what you're saying
is exactly right.
Right, it's not something, it'snot a disease that's all of a
sudden caught.
It's usually the result of somekind of shame, blame,
(29:38):
unrequited shame, blame, guilt,trauma, et cetera.
That has created a conditionfor we take one step, we take a
second step, and it's notsomething that happens overnight
.
It's a linear progression.
So, um, number one is I'mincredibly impressed and always
uh, just uh, congratulations onbeing able to navigate that out
(30:00):
and for using such positivetools to be able to do so.
So that that's a challenge andI recognize that challenge.
Jim Bouchard (30:07):
So you know, I appreciate that.
But you know one thing I wantto emphasize too I try very hard
not to glamorize that.
You know some people right,it's the least I could have done
for the people around me.
You know that's so, that'simportant to point out.
But no, no, but I I hope Ididn't diminish.
I do appreciate what you'resaying and no, no, no no.
Because there's the connectionthat HR world we know we were
(30:30):
just talking about that, I meanhow important there's a lot of
automation and whatnot andisolation happening.
People are seeking out ways tostreamline the HR process and
the training process and again,all that's good.
I like I access a lot oftraining online.
It's more or less on demand andautomated, but again, at some
point you need that connection.
There's no stronger connectionthan teacher and student right.
(30:52):
Again, you know from martialarts, right, that's a very
special relationship and all ofus can be the teacher.
Jay Johnson (31:02):
All of us can be the student at any given time.
I want to draw what you saidthere and it relates to
everything that you've just saidand it's impressive to me.
This is the key piece and itgoes back to exactly what you're
saying.
You said it was the least Icould do for the people around
me and it is about thatconnection and there's such a
power in you know I could gointo the science of our you know
(31:22):
, evolutionary, biologicalimperative for our drive to bond
.
It's part of our behavioralelements program.
We measure that we try tobetter understand.
Some people have a muchstronger need for connection and
bond than other people andwe're looking at part of the
reasons why.
But with that in that oxytocincircuit that's just built into
the brain, where we feel goodwhen we do something good for
(31:45):
somebody that's within ournetwork.
I hear that being reflected in alot of what you say, whether
it's the leadership side ofthings, whether it is the coming
out of addiction and doing it.
As for the greater good,whether it is coaching,
mentoring or et cetera, thatconnection piece seems to be at
the core of all that you'redoing.
(32:06):
So my question for you, andmaybe this is something what are
some of the ways where, okay,I'm a trainer, I'm brought in,
I'm standing in front of a room?
I have to create a connectionwith this audience if they're
going to trust me, if they'regoing to listen to me and if
they're going to retain anything, if I don't have that
connection, whether that'sthrough telling a story, whether
(32:28):
that's through, you know,identifying some of the pain
points that they have or sharingsome of that, empathizing with
some of that pain points, orbeing able to connect on that
vulnerability level, what aresome ways that we can really and
I don't want to say that we candemonstrate our humanity, I
don't want to say that we cancome off more human, because
(32:48):
that sounds like almost robotic,but the ways that we can really
demonstrate our humanity andcreate the conditions right.
We can't just I can't just goJim.
We're going to connect andyou're going to love it right.
Jim Bouchard (33:02):
That's not exactly how it works.
Jay Johnson (33:03):
Well, I'll kick you in the head right, yeah right,
but how are we, how can webetter facilitate space for
connections, whether we're inleadership or whether we're in a
training room?
What are your thoughts on that?
Jim Bouchard (33:17):
That's a really neat thing to explore and you
know it's it's.
This is a point ofdifferentiation, although I
can't say I originated becausethe teachers who influenced me
the most were people who taughtthis way.
Right, first of all, it'steaching with questions and it's
listening.
I think too often and I get itand I was guilty of it for a
long time I get paid to speakand I know a lot of times people
(33:41):
want to hear something, theywant to hear the story, they
want to hear some of that stuffat first, and that's okay,
that's cool, but as quickly aspossible and in workshops I
usually start right off withthis is asking some questions
and listening to them.
Right, and I think sometimesthe broadest questions are the
most powerful.
Sometimes people designquestions that are very focused.
(34:03):
But a focus question again,we're back into your world,
right?
Sometimes, when we're askingfocus questions, it's because
we're trying to elicit a certainresponse or we're trying to
narrow that response tosomething that we're trying to
research, right, or find outabout.
When we ask broad questionssometimes and let people talk
first of all, that's the bestway to connect with somebody,
right?
I'm not going to connect withyou if I walk in the room, say
(34:27):
we're at a social event and Iwalk in the room and I start
bragging all about me and what Ido, what's your response going
to be?
It's not likely going to be.
Oh geez, I like Jim, he's agood guy.
It's likely to be.
Who's that?
Moron who just wants to talkabout himself.
And it's no different in any ofthe relationships that we have,
especially as leaders and asmanagers, as HR people.
(34:50):
If I can sit and listen, listenactively, hey, if you don't care
, don't bother.
We should qualify that right.
There's plenty of people whotry to fake it and this is one
place where you can't fake ittill you make it, because people
feel it right away.
But if you listen attentivelyand you ask people you know,
good, strong, broad, openquestions about their situation
(35:11):
and their life and let them talk.
Let them talk for a whilewithout judging them and I know
that's something that's now.
It's kind of de rigueur withtherapeutic practice, right, you
don't want to jump in and startjudging them and start solving
their problems.
The more they talk, the morethose problems will be revealed,
and nine times out of 10, theperson discovers some solutions
(35:32):
on their own and then they ownthem right and by doing that and
I found this, like I said,particularly in a workshop
format the less I talk, the moreI provide an environment and
facilitate an environment wherethey're talking and sharing, the
more they think I'm the genius,isn't?
Jay Johnson (35:50):
that funny, how that works.
I didn't say anything, you guysfigured it out right, and the
more we learn, the less we talk,the more we learn, but you do.
Jim Bouchard (35:58):
I'm going to caution this, because in a
leadership position, when youhave a, let's differentiate when
you're a good leader in aposition of authority, because
those are two different things.
Leadership has nothing to dowith rank, title or position of
authority, but let's talk aboutthat.
You know that you are an HRdirector.
You're an HR, you're a trainingdirector.
You do have responsibility inthe hierarchy of your
(36:21):
organization.
All right, then you have to beparticularly sensitive to the
fact that, yeah, providing thatenvironment support has to be
authentic.
You have to care, you have toshow people that you do Part of
that too.
And here we're back to thatconnection question again.
If you make a promise, if inthe process of this interaction
(36:43):
and you're listening, and yousay to somebody, hey, look, I
think I can empower you in acertain way, I'm using a little,
you wouldn't say it that way,but I can provide this resource
where I can spend some time thatI can guide you, well then you
better damn well do it.
If you don't follow up on thator be honest with people and say
, hey, you know what, I don'tknow that the organization's
needs and your needs are inalignment right now, maybe
(37:05):
there's a different way we haveto go, maybe it's even that
you're part ways, okay, but thatauthenticity will be.
Even if it's not for thatperson, it'll be admired and
respected, and appreciated bythe other people around it.
Right, if you just consent toall demands now, that doesn't
work very well either, does it?
So it's complicated.
I mean you asked some coolquestions and we could dig in
(37:28):
for hours on these things, butthat's it in a nutshell.
So, building those connections,let's reduce it.
Martial artists tend to bereductionist, don't we?
That's right face.
(37:50):
Try not to let things get inthe way.
Our ability to connect is morenatural than I think a lot of
people will let on.
Let them talk about themselvesmore than you talk about
yourself.
Right, let them talk.
And what I mean by this abilityis more natural.
I think we can impede it in alot of ways, maybe not
intentionally, if we're open tothe process and we let things
happen organically.
We keep it focused in abusiness sense, right.
(38:11):
Don't let it go off the railstoo much.
But remember too that what'shappening in a person's personal
life is part of what they're,what's happening with them at
work, right, so you don't wantto?
Jay Johnson (38:22):
so glad you I'm so glad you said that, because I
hear this work-life balance oryou know, separation and and and
and it is, it's.
It's like okay, well, I'm goingto take this part of my brain
and I'm going to shut this partof my brain down for eight hours
of the day and then I'll justpick that back up and shut the
rest of it down, Like this isnot how we're hardwired, that
(38:42):
doesn't work.
Jim Bouchard (38:43):
You keep using these four letter words.
That's what work-life balance isa four letter word yeah, I
agree with that, and I think alot of it is because, um and
again you'll appreciate thisbecause your exposure to the
eastern thinking in the westernmind, balance is a static
position.
But it's not.
And as fighters we understandthat balance is not a static
position.
It's a dynamic process, right.
(39:05):
So, in work-life balancesometimes.
Sometimes work becomes moreimportant, sometimes other
aspects of your life become moreimportant.
It's a matter of constantadjustment.
Right To always be trying tobring things to some sort of
equilibrium, but understandingthat they're never going to stay
that way.
How dull would that be anyway?
Jay Johnson (39:22):
A big difference between equilibrium and
harmonization and being able tosay, hey, you know what, this
week I really do need to put ina significant more amount of
effort into family, friends,self-care, whatever that is.
And this week, you know what Ireally do need to focus on my
tests, my certifications, mywork, my reporting, et cetera.
(39:45):
Yeah, no, it's so smart, jim.
Jim, this has been anincredible conversation and I
know that we could go on and Idefinitely I've gotten so many
takeaways from this.
I know our audience hasbenefited.
Question for you how would theaudience get in touch with you
if they wanted to reach out,learn more about your journey
(40:07):
and your approach to keeping ithuman?
Jim Bouchard (40:10):
Well, first of all , thanks, and let's make this
the first, not the lastconversation, and I want to have
you on Keep it Human becauseI'd like to hear more about your
perspectives, especially, youknow, in human behavior and
whatnot.
One thing we just launched wasreally cool and, I'm telling you
, just launched there's only ahandful of people on it.
I've dreamed about this foryears.
I'm telling you, it justlaunched, there's only a handful
of people on it.
I've dreamed about this foryears.
(40:30):
Keep it human All one word keepit human dot network, and
that's a platform.
It's on a platform calledMighty Networks, where we're
able to get people to share witheach other all over the world,
across industries, and we'restarting to populate it with a
lot of cool resources.
So there's a free sectionengage Just get on there.
Right now, you get everythingin the Engage section because
we're just starting out, andthen, if you're interested in
(40:53):
having me come and speak or doworkshops,
thehumancentricleaderorg is agood place
thehumancentricleaderorg, butI'm easy to find on LinkedIn and
all that stuff too.
Jay Johnson (41:04):
Excellent.
We'll make sure that's in theshow notes.
And little props to MightyNetworks.
I do actually very, very, verymuch like that system.
I do a lot of my coaching onthere, so yeah she came up with
a really cool platform.
Yeah, yep yep so well.
Thank you, jim.
I really appreciate your timeum, your vulnerability and
sharing your story, your journey, and also for so many great
(41:25):
takeaways that I honestly thinkthey can take from this podcast
put directly into their HRfunction and into their L&D to
help keep it human.
So thank you for being herewith us today, thanks for doing
what you're doing.
I appreciate it All right, andthank you, audience, for tuning
into this episode of the TalentForge, where we are shaping the
future of training anddevelopment.
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where we are shaping the futureof training and development.
Today, I am joined by specialguest Jim Bouchard.
Welcome to the show, jim.
Jim Bouchard (00:11):
Hey, thanks, jay.
It's so good to be here and hey, the future is now right.
Jay Johnson (00:15):
Future is now and I want the audience to get to
know you, because your message,one of the big messages, and it
resonated with me the moment Iread it keep it human.
Your message, one of the bigmessages, and it resonated with
me the moment I read it keep ithuman.
And I think a lot of us intalent development and HR
sometimes forget about that.
And I think this is going to bea great conversation, but let's
get to know you a little bit.
How'd you get into this talentdevelopment space Completely by
(00:41):
accident, and that's my storytoo.
So please tell me, share yourstory.
Jim Bouchard (00:52):
Well, long story short, or somewhat short anyway.
First of all, I was a formerdrug addict, two-time college
dropout How's that?
Aren't you glad you invited menow.
Jay Johnson (01:02):
Absolutely.
Jim Bouchard (01:03):
Right, and part of my recovery was, uh, martial
arts.
I started to get involved inmartial arts so I didn't realize
that was an accident too.
I didn't realize that was goingto turn into a 30 plus year
career.
Um, and that was.
It was a wonderful, wonderfulexperience.
First of all, it saved my life,for one thing, but also it
taught me about a lot of the.
(01:23):
It taught me how, taught me howto make really genuine
connections with people on ahuman level.
I mean, that's what martial artsis all about sharing
information, and I believeleadership is about a lot of
things, but, above all,leadership is sharing, and a
leader shares.
The rest of the conversation isjust about what we're willing
to share and how we're willingto do it, which is at the heart
of HR and talent development,right?
(01:44):
So, anyway, people startedasking me to speak about the
philosophy of martial arts andhow it applied to real life and
especially life in business, andthat one thing led to another,
and that put me out on the roadspeaking and writing books and
doing things like that.
So here we are today, butthat's how it all gets started
and you know, at the heart of it, you know people perform at
(02:06):
their best when and I'd argue,only when they know their
leaders care and their work hasmeaning, and when they have a
chance to learn, to grow anddevelop.
And right, isn't that what youguys are all about?
Jay Johnson (02:16):
That's what you're trying to do, and so yeah, so
you know, I'm always, I'm alwaysglad to work with, with my
friends in hr.
(02:36):
You've got one of the toughestjobs on the planet, you're not
wrong, jim?
There's so much interestingthings that you just shared.
Okay, let me.
Let me get my brain undercontrol as I'm ready.
So I, I also studied martialarts.
I was a mixed martial artistfor nice, several years studied
in Brazilian jiu-jitsu, aikido.
How'd you stay so?
Pretty Well, actually.
The irony is I gave it up whenI got punched in the mouth,
cracked a tooth, and had to givea keynote the next day on
(02:57):
dealing with difficult peoplewith a half-whistling tooth.
So I decided to stop it at thatpoint.
Jim Bouchard (03:02):
Yeah, that is an average day in that trade.
Jay Johnson (03:05):
That's right.
So here's my question for you.
I loved what you said about theconnection between martial arts
and people and leadership, etcetera.
Can you dig into that just alittle bit?
I don't know that.
I've heard somebody bring thatto the forefront before.
Jim Bouchard (03:23):
Well, I think a lot of it had to do with.
I was blessed with some reallyincredible teachers and in fact,
on my podcast, on the Keep itHuman podcast, I just had a
reunion with Dr Yang Xun Ming,who was he is just one of the
teachers that probably in thetop three that I admire so much.
It had such a profoundinfluence on me and my work and
(03:43):
on my life.
First of all, it was wonderfulto learn martial arts from him,
but, more important, I thinkhe's one of the world's greatest
living philosophers and wehadn't spoken for almost 30
years and we kind of just pickedup where we left off.
And another, he was one thatalways encouraged.
(04:04):
You know that martial arts wasto enhance your life, not to
detract from it, right, and thatthese lessons, the lessons,
were about life, not just aboutpunching people in the head and
getting kicked in the face right.
And another influence on me,profound teacher Professor Nick
Serio, and he described thisbeautifully and I'm sure you'll
understand this.
He defined the attainment of ablack belt as the attainment of
(04:25):
a good learning attitude.
And he said most of all, you'relearning how to learn about
yourself and now take that andapply that out in the world to
take it outside the dojo.
You know, because once youlearn how to learn about
yourself, then you're on thepath for continual, you know,
personal development right,self-improvement.
So one of the greatest giftsthat I kind of extracted from
(04:45):
these wonderful teachers wasperfection is not a destination,
it's an ever-ending process,and the more we can embrace that
process right, then we're goingto become better people, we're
going to become better leaders,we're going to become better
resources to the people aroundus.
And ultimately, I think themost effective leaders have that
mindset right Always trying tolearn, grow, develop.
(05:10):
We call it martial arts, wecall it beginner's mind, which
is really the true mind of themaster Always curious, always
seeking, trying to improve.
Don't break your arm, trying topatch yourself on the back
right.
Jay Johnson (05:17):
That's right, you know, and I love that because
I've and I will share this.
So part of the reason I gotinto mixed martial arts was my
brother who had come back fromhis deployments as a ranger in
the army, had ended up startinga school and was working in Tong
Soo Do, Mu Da Kwan, Koreanmartial art, and he was like,
(05:39):
hey, will you come in and dothis?
And I started doing that andthen it kind of blossomed into.
I met a bunch of people inBrazilian jujitsu and so on and
so on and so forth, and Iremember, um, I did not have, I
did have in my brother anamazing teacher, but he was not
a philosopher, he used the stick.
Jim Bouchard (05:56):
So it was, it was uh, but you know, call it
brother, these guys could dothat from time to time, to
definitely tough toughened me up, but I love hearing about this
and I remember very clearly itwas.
Jay Johnson (06:08):
actually I ended up doing Tai Chi for like balance
and core strength and a numberof other things, not so much an
aggressive martial art, but Iremember that my instructor in
there was just so profound,didn't say all that much, but
when it was, it was like thinkof this as the you know the, the
flowing nature of how youremotions are working and things
like that, and it really didshift my thought process, not
(06:33):
even just from the martial artsperspective, but just like from
the world perspective, like thepush and pull and the give and
take and the ability to remainbalanced even when there's
adversity or something pushingagainst us.
I think there's a lot of lessonsthat can come from martial arts
and in thinking of the audiencehere.
So the trainers, the coaches,the HR practitioners out there,
(06:56):
what is maybe one or two lessonsthat you would share in
thinking of, that mentality ofalways being a learner or that
mentality of you know thediscipline that it takes to do
some of these things?
How would you help them thinkthrough that in terms of being
able to design, deliver or evendevelop some type of learning
experience for somebody?
Jim Bouchard (07:16):
Well, just in that few seconds, you opened up a
whole lot of cans of a whole lotof worms.
We could we could probably talkabout this for hours.
Cans of a whole lot of worms,we could probably talk about
this for hours.
One of the most profound thingsI think you just hit on was
this idea of the idea ofcontinual learning and
discipline.
Right, and that was anothergreat gift that I got from my
(07:37):
life as a martial artist, andI'll define that for people,
discipline to a martial artistis really the development,
cultivation and practice ofmeaningful and purposeful habits
, and there's a lot of work donein psychology now about that
right, about the benefit ofpositive habits.
That's part of the reason Ishare my experience as a drug
addict, because I had to learn.
(07:59):
Well, first of all, I used tothink that was a really lousy
resume for someone dealing withleadership.
I came to realize it was a veryuseful one.
Leadership is abouttransformation, right.
Transforming ourselves,transforming our organizations,
transforming the people aroundus.
If we're not changing, we'redying in this environment.
So it became a useful resume,and that who better to talk
about transformation thansomeone who had to learn it in
(08:20):
order to survive and stay out ofjail right, had to learn it in
order to survive and stay out ofjail right.
But along the way I learnedthat part of that transformation
process is to take to identifythe negative habits that we fall
into and we all do right andtry to cultivate and develop
positive habits that are goingto get us further along the road
, get us to our goals, whetherthat's advancing in your own
(08:41):
career, helping others as you dothrough training and
development, you know and bydiscipline I mean you know
that's things you check off on ato-do list I mean really
embedding these practices in ourlives.
What are we going to do everyday, every week, every month,
every year, and stay true tothat?
So that's a huge lesson there.
The other thing is I've beenasked lately in fact I'm going
(09:04):
out to Arizona next week to workwith a group for a couple of
days on uncertainty.
In our current environment,uncertainty is a big issue and
again we learned that frommartial arts.
The practice of martial arts isall about putting you in
chaotic situations, isn't it?
Particularly when we're workingwith self-defense?
We don't know what's coming, wedon't know where it's coming
(09:24):
from.
That's part of the fun.
Over time I came to realizewhat can you do?
I don't want to say reduceuncertainty I've corrected
myself from saying that over thelast few months, because I came
to the realization is thatuncertainty is an almost
infinite and inevitablecommodity.
It surrounds us all the time.
Right, I'd rather say how do wemanage and address the
(09:48):
uncertainty?
Not reduce it, not try to avoidit, because the uncertainties
where all the great stuffhappens.
You think about it.
One of the exercises we do inthe workshops I ask people to
think about some of theirgreatest victories, their
greatest triumphs, and afterthey identify this but what were
the conditions just before thathappened?
And more times than not, it wasa mess.
(10:12):
Things were a mess, it waschaotic.
I didn't know what was going tohappen.
It was disaster.
And then out of that came thetriumph.
You wouldn't feel that triumphif you didn't have the
challenges to face before.
So I know we've got to get thisT-shirt back out.
I had a T-shirt a while ago.
It said Celebrate Adversity.
It's your chance to discoverthe person you might not have
ever imagined without it.
(10:32):
That's nice.
I like that.
How do we do that?
And, like I said, in martialarts, on a very physical level,
we practiced that, didn't we?
And how do you address it?
How do you address it?
How do you manage it better?
Try to anticipate as manysituations as you possibly can,
right.
Try to imagine and it's hardfor some people Imagine the
worst case scenarios, thinkabout them and then design ways
(10:55):
to practice for that.
You might not know the specificcircumstances or conditions,
but look what we were jokingbefore the program about the
stock market, right, but lookwhat we were joking before the
program about the stock market.
Right Now, we might not knowwhat conditions or circumstances
lead to a variation in thestock market at a given time,
but we know it's going to happen.
We know the stock market'sgoing to go up.
We know the stock market'sgoing to go down.
(11:16):
We don't know when, we don'tknow how, we don't know why.
Jay Johnson (11:20):
But we know it's going to happen.
We're building some empiricalevidence that tariffs may have
that impact.
Jim Bouchard (11:26):
That's one of the things, right?
Yeah, Look at what happenedwith COVID.
We've had a lot of discussionsabout that.
I don't think very many of uspredicted a global pandemic, but
we can all think of situationswhere our cash flow was
interrupted, where our supplychain was interrupted, things
like that.
So we can prepare for thosethings.
And the more we train andprepare then the more we become
(11:49):
flexible and adaptable andcomfortable with uncertainty.
And we've got to learn to loveit.
I mean, and again, as martialartists, I'm sure you practice
jujitsu.
I'm sure you're cool that yourbrother did this.
I'm sure he put you into somesituations where you're being
turned into a human pretzel andsaying, how the hell did I end
up here?
Oh yeah, and then you have tomanage your way out of it.
(12:09):
When you reverse it, you get ontop.
That feels pretty good, doesn'tit?
It does.
Jay Johnson (12:18):
And what you're saying has so much wisdom behind
it that I tried to express toany audience that'll listen to.
This is the difference betweendebilitating stress or anxiety
and enhancing stress and anxiety.
Right, and, and as you said inyour, in your workshop, when you
ask them what was your stateright before this, they were in
(12:39):
that state of anxiety or stressbecause what they were about to
do matters and it has an impactand it's being able to kind of
take control of that and use itas that motivating fuel.
Yeah, when you are, and forthose of you that are not in
mixed martial arts, um, whenyou're in a vulnerable position
and they call it grounded andpounded, which is what I was
(13:02):
getting, uh, where you're onyour back and then aggressors on
top of you just raining downfire.
That's when a lot of people endup panicking.
And when we panic and don'tmanage it, well, you make a
mistake, you throw your arms upand the next thing you know
you're a pretzel.
Uh, when you don't panic andyou do what you've practiced
(13:23):
over and over and over again,you might have a chance of
getting out of there with yourface mostly intact, right, right
.
So I love how you bring thatinto this space, because it
makes a lot of sense and Ilearned not to panic under fire.
What are a couple of thingsthat you teach?
How do you help people grabcontrol of that uncertainty?
(13:44):
All that work?
Yeah, I remember some of thethings that I was taught that I
think that this will be one ofthose.
This is one of those things,because every one of these
trainers and HR people that arelistening have this moment of
panic when somebody is cominginto their office that they have
to deal with, or when they'restanding up there and delivering
a new training.
So getting a hold of thatuncertainty and managing it is
(14:06):
essential.
I love this conversation, jim.
So, please, what are some waysthat you would suggest that they
kind of take control?
Jim Bouchard (14:13):
Well, you just brought up that four-letter word
, control, right.
I'd rather emphasize power.
Philosophically, power is yourability or capacity to act or
perform effectively.
Right, control, that can bepretty elusive, huh.
And like I said, especially I'mglad you brought up HR friends,
because, you're right, somebodywalks into the office and we
(14:35):
don't know what's going on withthat person, we don't know the
circumstances and conditions.
We have to suss that all out.
We may have very little controlover any of those variables,
right, but what can we do?
Can we rely on our training inresponse, especially, like you
said, you're a behaviorist,right, can we train ourselves to
listen attentively, activelyI'm summoning my Carl Rogers now
(14:58):
right.
But to be able to respond topeople in their space, in their
time, to be most useful to them,that requires a lot of
discipline, that requires a lotof practice.
Right To reduce and but noteliminate.
Again, another four-letter wordfear.
I think too many people theyconfuse the panic.
(15:18):
It's inevitable.
We're going to be in situationssometimes where we panic, and
that's a natural response, isn'tit?
I mean, it's something, itactivates a lot in us.
We just don't want to get stuckin that moment, not for very
long, right, but if, hey, ifthere was an explosion outside
this door right now, I wouldpanic, for it would be my first
response.
Now, how do I get that undercontrol?
(15:44):
Breathe, get your body backwhere it needs to be in order to
respond, and we can trainourselves to do that quickly and
effectively.
And I'm not talking about inthe martial arts ring or boxing
ring right now.
Right, we could do that in thehr office as well, and these
aren't practices that should bea surprise to anybody, right?
I mean, these are very popularpractices.
Now, the other part of it isempowering others right and
again, and especially intraining and development, what
(16:06):
are you really doing?
You know what do people need tosucceed?
Are you?
Are you helping them get tothose resources?
That's what we're talking about.
We talk about empowering people.
Remember, I just said power isyour, is your ability or
capacity to act or performeffectively.
And a little while ago, I think, I said something about
leadership being sharing right.
Yet it's interesting how manypeople in leadership positions
(16:27):
are hesitant to share power,hesitant to share authority.
Yet these are the two things.
First of all, neither of thosethings can grow or expand in any
other way, but by sharing themright.
When I help someone else becomemore powerful, when I help them
get access to the resourcesthey need to perform effectively
and I'm doing it for manypeople, sometimes as a leader or
(16:50):
a manager well then I becomemore powerful.
I'm able to do more, and a lotof times through the efforts of
the people around it, peoplethat trust in my leadership,
right, so that's what we'rereally talking about there.
So, rather than power controland fear, you know some people
they talk about fearlessness.
Jeez, that's kind of dangerous.
This is your area, so I wouldprobably ask you.
(17:10):
I think there are clinicaldescriptions for people who lack
the capacity to be afraid, andI don't think that's a very
healthy condition, is it no?
Their?
life expectancy is not courage.
The absence of fear isstupidity.
Jay Johnson (17:24):
Yeah, their life expectancy is significantly
lower.
There's actually a couple ofdifferent neurological disorders
where the amygdala just doesn'ttrigger, doesn't activate in a
way that it does in, say,somebody, where we hear a loud
bang and we turn and we coverand we make sure that we're
protecting ourselves.
Jim Bouchard (17:42):
Exactly, it greatly increases our
probability for survival right,correct, correct.
Jay Johnson (17:47):
Hey, we evolved that system for a reason.
Yeah, yeah.
Jim Bouchard (17:52):
But that idea, like I said, absence of fear is
not courage.
Courage, in fact, is onlydefined by the fact that we're
facing a danger or risk or achallenge.
You know, um, it doesn'tnecessarily have to be a life
and death situation.
There's, there's differenttypes of courage.
I don't know if we have time toget into all that today, but
you know, moral courage,artistic courage, um, you know,
(18:13):
heroic courage, obviously that'sthe most obvious one, but still
it's.
It's only defined because we'refacing a challenge.
So how we face our fears, howwe respond despite our fears,
that's really what we define ascourage.
So, in fact, we just did asession where a few of the
people brought that up.
They thought that they hadn'tserved the younger generations
(18:37):
very well because they shieldthem from the risk.
Right, and I said no, exactlyright, you have to expose If you
want people to grow and develop, and if they didn't do it at
home, you're going to have to doit in the office, right, but
you've got to provideopportunities where there is a
chance of failure, where thereis some risk.
Of course you want to managethat risk if you're responsibly
(18:58):
running a company, but it needsto be there.
You need to put people inpositions where not setting them
up for failure, that's adifferent thing, but where
there's equal chance for failureand success.
Hey, I didn't want to open thatcan of worms.
I've got a hair across it aboutthis whole idea of failure
lately too, know, we've becomeso afraid of that.
(19:20):
Um, we were just arguing aboutscientific hypotheses like right
now, if, if they come up withsomething, a scientific like, so
let's just say they're testinga vaccine and they test and it
doesn't work, that's not afailure.
You see, that's part of theprocess of learning, and I
didn't fail to.
Jay Johnson (19:39):
I didn't fail to invent the light bulb 10 000
times.
I had 10 000 learningexperiences that got me to the
exactly, exactly.
Jim Bouchard (19:48):
And if we're not willing to do those experiments,
then we're stagnant.
And I don't know plenty of theelders said it, um, you know,
lao tzu said it how manydifferent ways.
The only constant life ischange.
If we're not willing to respondto that, we're in a whole lot
of trouble, right?
Jay Johnson (20:03):
Yeah, jim, you'll find this funny.
In regards to failure, Somethingput me down the pathway and I
my brain sometimes is my kind ofprimary areas.
I got pushed down the road ofethology, which is studying
animal behavior in its actualenvironment, in its actual
(20:25):
language.
And hearing some of the triedexperiments, like, for example,
trying to figure out how beesare able to, um, do a dance when
they come back to the hive totell their fellow bees how far
something is, what direction itis, how large the food source is
, and hearing about one of thestudies where they put a beehive
(20:47):
on a turntable and the beeswould return and then, when it
returned, they would turn theturntable just a little bit to
see if that threw off thedirection and what aspect of the
dance that ended up shifting.
And I'm sitting there thinkingto myself like how many times do
you have to fail in thatexperiment before you come to
the conclusion that this onesmall aspect is?
(21:09):
And so I love what you'resaying.
It's almost just thisinsatiable appetite of curiosity
to get us forward right, likethe.
Jim Bouchard (21:17):
Right, the right, right, okay, what's no?
And failure, failure is part ofthe data set.
And I'm not talking aboutnegligent failure, failure
either.
You know, you don't.
You don't want to promotepeople just making foolish
mistakes or careless mistakes.
That's not what we're talkingabout we're not going to learn
responsibly right, testing ideasand moving them forward.
And unfortunately too, you knownot not to get into the politics
of the day too much, but Ithink that's part of our
(21:41):
challenge right now with ourwhole political environment is
that we expect our politicalleaders to be infallible and any
mistake that they make isinstantly judged.
I think the whole cancelculture kind of arose around
that intolerance for failure.
Culture kind of arose aroundthat intolerance for failure.
And yet none of us can escapeit.
(22:03):
Even if we try, we're notinfallible.
Right Again we're back intoyour world.
But I don't think anypsychological data supports the
idea of an ideal, infalliblehuman being.
Jay Johnson (22:13):
Well and if you think about how we ourselves
want to look at ourselves as anadaptable and evolving, a
growing human being, but a lotof times we don't extend that
courtesy to people that areoutside of our skin.
Jim Bouchard (22:29):
Well, that's because I'm right and you're
wrong.
Jay Johnson (22:30):
That's right, so you know I want to dig into this
, though, too, because I thinkit's important that we spend
some time on the concepts ofkeeping it human, which you know
you started off by sharing avulnerable.
You know a vulnerable peek intoyour background and to how you
(22:50):
got from being a drug addict tobeing in the martial arts, to
being a leadership coach andwhat that journey looked like,
and I think that's reallypowerful right?
We know that vulnerability andvulnerability loops are what
create connections with people.
At some point in time you hadmentioned, you know, whether
it's that which created theconditions for a powerful
(23:12):
transformative story, or it's.
You know it could be anythingelse too.
It could be an injury thatcreated that condition.
It could be a life event thatcreated that condition.
Um, what is it that in thatstory?
How do you keep that human?
What is that human aspect thatyou are essentially creating the
(23:33):
conditions for somebody to findthemselves in?
What does that look like foryou?
Jim Bouchard (23:38):
Well, that's a really powerful question.
I think a lot of it has to dowith our need, our desire for
connection.
Right, you face a challengelike that, and a lot of times I
I'm going to speak personallyfrom the drug experience uh, and
I know I'm not alone in this alot of people that deal with
addictions can feel veryisolated.
Right, you can feel like I'mthe only one that has the
(24:01):
problems that led to myaddiction, because that's it too
.
You know, people look at theaddiction as the problem.
But again, you, you know I'mstepping into your world.
Most of the time there arecircumstances and conditions
that make us susceptible to theaddiction.
Right, it's not just that thedrugs are the problem.
The drugs are my way ofmedicating myself and feeling a
little safer and a little morecomfortable from the problems
(24:22):
that I didn't want to cope withor couldn't cope with at the
time.
So you know, when we'reisolated like that, cope with or
couldn't cope with at the time.
So you know, when we'reisolated like that, if we
survive it at some point werealize we can't do that alone.
We have to reach out for help.
We have to be willing to acceptthe help from others.
Right, and there's this desirefor connection.
Now, that's a pretty extremeexample of it, but I believe we
(24:42):
all need that connection and youknow, in studying a little bit
in your world, I think that'spretty well documented.
We're a social creature, weevolved to be a social creature.
So, for whatever reason, weneed one another and we need to
develop healthyinterdependencies.
Right, not codependence, buthealthy interdependencies.
And so that's really what it is.
That's what happens in aleadership relationship, right,
(25:09):
relationship.
Right.
We cultivate in fact, I kind ofdefine a leader as this someone
with the ability to attractwilling followers, which means
you do.
You know there's.
If you go on our website, you'llsee the three key words that
were emphasized all the time.
In fact, the title of my lastbook, ieg, inspire, empower
Guide.
I think you get the impressionalready.
I'm not lollipops and puppydogs here, right?
Okay, these aren't just prettywords.
It took a long time to reduceall this mishmash to what were
(25:33):
the three most powerfuldisciplines that a leader can
embrace, and I don't think wehave time for this, but I'd
argue that everybody's a leader,and why?
Because you inspire somebody,you touch their heart, not just
their heads, right, you empowerpeople around you, whether you
realize it or not, you get themthings they need in order to
fulfill their needs, their goals.
And we all guide somebody.
(25:55):
I work with incarcerated kidsand it's funny because I joke
with them a lot, I share thatphilosophy.
With them.
I say, you know, some of thosekids are really good at
inspiring, empowering andguiding their peers.
We've got to channel it in theright direction, sure, but yeah,
these things can be used forevil as well as for good.
But the important thing is thatthat's what we're doing.
(26:16):
And most important there, Ithink, is the idea of touching
people's hearts, not just theirheads, inspiring people.
And that speaks really to ourneed for human connection,
connection, because that's whatit's all about.
So now we've got a lot ofchallenges and, right, we've got
all kinds of divides.
I mean, we've got we've alwayshad generational divides and
racial divides and ethnicdivides, and now the political
(26:39):
divide is I wouldn't say it'sthe worst it's ever been, but
we're in one of those deepcycles of deep, yeah, right, um,
ai is freaking everybody out,right, embracing these new
technologies, um, all thesethings that can really reduce
our humanity or reduce ourcapacity to see another person
as as deeply human.
And I'd argue again this is oneof those ages where, hey,
(27:01):
people, great people, are goingto rise out of this, because the
more I think, more people payattention to the importance of
the human connection.
Because what's the point of allthis stuff?
Especially technology is aneasy one to wrap around right.
What's the point of all thistechnology if it's not to bring
us together?
We're already, I think we'removing through if not, I'm
hoping out of a phase where itseparated us a lot, even though
(27:21):
it shouldn't have.
But now can we use these toolsto at least to bring us together
and give us the time to connectwith each other on a more, on a
deeper level?
I mean, I use AI.
I use AI all the time to helpme with my writing and
correspondence and things likethat research, and it does give
me time.
But how am I going to use thattime?
Am I going to talk with Chad?
(27:42):
Do you name your chat GPT guy?
Jay Johnson (27:48):
I actually asked it to name itself, and its name is
Vex, which.
I was like I don't.
I don't know how I feel aboutthat, but all right, my wife did
that with hers.
Jim Bouchard (27:57):
She asked him to, but yeah, I don't know, I just
started calling mine chat, butanyway, it does give me more
time to think and to connectwith other people, and that's
what's important.
And if you doubt what I'm saying, well, call any customer
service line at a major companyin these days.
Right, I just got held upflying which happens a lot these
(28:20):
days, and, yeah, I'll say it,united Airlines because they've
been one of the roughest oneslately trying to find a human
being to talk to, and I finallyfound a wonderful human being.
It is a good outcome to thestory, but it took me a while to
get to a human being, right?
So people need to realize Ithink I'm going to do a lot of
work in customer service comingup, but I don't know if I'm the
(28:43):
only one, but I'm sick of beingin that endless feedback loop of
automation.
When I have an issue, right,it's fine, it streamlines.
When things are going good, wecan go in there, go online, do
our stuff right, but, boy, whenyou have a problem, don't you
want to talk?
Jay Johnson (28:56):
to a person A lot of times.
Well, and it's interesting thatyou bring this up, jim, because
I think we could spend anotherhour talking about sort of the
interactions and even some ofthe interesting research that's
happening right now about howpeople are creating connections
with AI because they feeldisconnected with others.
But I'm really appreciativethat you shared your story and
(29:17):
your experience in there, and soI've done some work with some
different addiction agencies andsupported them and coached them
in some of the behavioralpractices and what you're saying
is exactly right.
Right, it's not something, it'snot a disease that's all of a
sudden caught.
It's usually the result of somekind of shame, blame,
(29:38):
unrequited shame, blame, guilt,trauma, et cetera.
That has created a conditionfor we take one step, we take a
second step, and it's notsomething that happens overnight
.
It's a linear progression.
So, um, number one is I'mincredibly impressed and always
uh, just uh, congratulations onbeing able to navigate that out
(30:00):
and for using such positivetools to be able to do so.
So that that's a challenge andI recognize that challenge.
Jim Bouchard (30:07):
So you know, I appreciate that.
But you know one thing I wantto emphasize too I try very hard
not to glamorize that.
You know some people right,it's the least I could have done
for the people around me.
You know that's so, that'simportant to point out.
But no, no, but I I hope Ididn't diminish.
I do appreciate what you'resaying and no, no, no no.
Because there's the connectionthat HR world we know we were
(30:30):
just talking about that, I meanhow important there's a lot of
automation and whatnot andisolation happening.
People are seeking out ways tostreamline the HR process and
the training process and again,all that's good.
I like I access a lot oftraining online.
It's more or less on demand andautomated, but again, at some
point you need that connection.
There's no stronger connectionthan teacher and student right.
(30:52):
Again, you know from martialarts, right, that's a very
special relationship and all ofus can be the teacher.
Jay Johnson (31:02):
All of us can be the student at any given time.
I want to draw what you saidthere and it relates to
everything that you've just saidand it's impressive to me.
This is the key piece and itgoes back to exactly what you're
saying.
You said it was the least Icould do for the people around
me and it is about thatconnection and there's such a
power in you know I could gointo the science of our you know
(31:22):
, evolutionary, biologicalimperative for our drive to bond
.
It's part of our behavioralelements program.
We measure that we try tobetter understand.
Some people have a muchstronger need for connection and
bond than other people andwe're looking at part of the
reasons why.
But with that in that oxytocincircuit that's just built into
the brain, where we feel goodwhen we do something good for
(31:45):
somebody that's within ournetwork.
I hear that being reflected in alot of what you say, whether
it's the leadership side ofthings, whether it is the coming
out of addiction and doing it.
As for the greater good,whether it is coaching,
mentoring or et cetera, thatconnection piece seems to be at
the core of all that you'redoing.
(32:06):
So my question for you, andmaybe this is something what are
some of the ways where, okay,I'm a trainer, I'm brought in,
I'm standing in front of a room?
I have to create a connectionwith this audience if they're
going to trust me, if they'regoing to listen to me and if
they're going to retain anything, if I don't have that
connection, whether that'sthrough telling a story, whether
(32:28):
that's through, you know,identifying some of the pain
points that they have or sharingsome of that, empathizing with
some of that pain points, orbeing able to connect on that
vulnerability level, what aresome ways that we can really and
I don't want to say that we candemonstrate our humanity, I
don't want to say that we cancome off more human, because
(32:48):
that sounds like almost robotic,but the ways that we can really
demonstrate our humanity andcreate the conditions right.
We can't just I can't just goJim.
We're going to connect andyou're going to love it right.
Jim Bouchard (33:02):
That's not exactly how it works.
Jay Johnson (33:03):
Well, I'll kick you in the head right, yeah right,
but how are we, how can webetter facilitate space for
connections, whether we're inleadership or whether we're in a
training room?
What are your thoughts on that?
Jim Bouchard (33:17):
That's a really neat thing to explore and you
know it's it's.
This is a point ofdifferentiation, although I
can't say I originated becausethe teachers who influenced me
the most were people who taughtthis way.
Right, first of all, it'steaching with questions and it's
listening.
I think too often and I get itand I was guilty of it for a
long time I get paid to speakand I know a lot of times people
(33:41):
want to hear something, theywant to hear the story, they
want to hear some of that stuffat first, and that's okay,
that's cool, but as quickly aspossible and in workshops I
usually start right off withthis is asking some questions
and listening to them.
Right, and I think sometimesthe broadest questions are the
most powerful.
Sometimes people designquestions that are very focused.
(34:03):
But a focus question again,we're back into your world,
right?
Sometimes, when we're askingfocus questions, it's because
we're trying to elicit a certainresponse or we're trying to
narrow that response tosomething that we're trying to
research, right, or find outabout.
When we ask broad questionssometimes and let people talk
first of all, that's the bestway to connect with somebody,
right?
I'm not going to connect withyou if I walk in the room, say
(34:27):
we're at a social event and Iwalk in the room and I start
bragging all about me and what Ido, what's your response going
to be?
It's not likely going to be.
Oh geez, I like Jim, he's agood guy.
It's likely to be.
Who's that?
Moron who just wants to talkabout himself.
And it's no different in any ofthe relationships that we have,
especially as leaders and asmanagers, as HR people.
(34:50):
If I can sit and listen, listenactively, hey, if you don't care
, don't bother.
We should qualify that right.
There's plenty of people whotry to fake it and this is one
place where you can't fake ittill you make it, because people
feel it right away.
But if you listen attentivelyand you ask people you know,
good, strong, broad, openquestions about their situation
(35:11):
and their life and let them talk.
Let them talk for a whilewithout judging them and I know
that's something that's now.
It's kind of de rigueur withtherapeutic practice, right, you
don't want to jump in and startjudging them and start solving
their problems.
The more they talk, the morethose problems will be revealed,
and nine times out of 10, theperson discovers some solutions
(35:32):
on their own and then they ownthem right and by doing that and
I found this, like I said,particularly in a workshop
format the less I talk, the moreI provide an environment and
facilitate an environment wherethey're talking and sharing, the
more they think I'm the genius,isn't?
Jay Johnson (35:50):
that funny, how that works.
I didn't say anything, you guysfigured it out right, and the
more we learn, the less we talk,the more we learn, but you do.
Jim Bouchard (35:58):
I'm going to caution this, because in a
leadership position, when youhave a, let's differentiate when
you're a good leader in aposition of authority, because
those are two different things.
Leadership has nothing to dowith rank, title or position of
authority, but let's talk aboutthat.
You know that you are an HRdirector.
You're an HR, you're a trainingdirector.
You do have responsibility inthe hierarchy of your
(36:21):
organization.
All right, then you have to beparticularly sensitive to the
fact that, yeah, providing thatenvironment support has to be
authentic.
You have to care, you have toshow people that you do Part of
that too.
And here we're back to thatconnection question again.
If you make a promise, if inthe process of this interaction
(36:43):
and you're listening, and yousay to somebody, hey, look, I
think I can empower you in acertain way, I'm using a little,
you wouldn't say it that way,but I can provide this resource
where I can spend some time thatI can guide you, well then you
better damn well do it.
If you don't follow up on thator be honest with people and say
, hey, you know what, I don'tknow that the organization's
needs and your needs are inalignment right now, maybe
(37:05):
there's a different way we haveto go, maybe it's even that
you're part ways, okay, but thatauthenticity will be.
Even if it's not for thatperson, it'll be admired and
respected, and appreciated bythe other people around it.
Right, if you just consent toall demands now, that doesn't
work very well either, does it?
So it's complicated.
I mean you asked some coolquestions and we could dig in
(37:28):
for hours on these things, butthat's it in a nutshell.
So, building those connections,let's reduce it.
Martial artists tend to bereductionist, don't we?
That's right face.
(37:50):
Try not to let things get inthe way.
Our ability to connect is morenatural than I think a lot of
people will let on.
Let them talk about themselvesmore than you talk about
yourself.
Right, let them talk.
And what I mean by this abilityis more natural.
I think we can impede it in alot of ways, maybe not
intentionally, if we're open tothe process and we let things
happen organically.
We keep it focused in abusiness sense, right.
(38:11):
Don't let it go off the railstoo much.
But remember too that what'shappening in a person's personal
life is part of what they're,what's happening with them at
work, right, so you don't wantto?
Jay Johnson (38:22):
so glad you I'm so glad you said that, because I
hear this work-life balance oryou know, separation and and and
and it is, it's.
It's like okay, well, I'm goingto take this part of my brain
and I'm going to shut this partof my brain down for eight hours
of the day and then I'll justpick that back up and shut the
rest of it down, Like this isnot how we're hardwired, that
(38:42):
doesn't work.
Jim Bouchard (38:43):
You keep using these four letter words.
That's what work-life balance isa four letter word yeah, I
agree with that, and I think alot of it is because, um and
again you'll appreciate thisbecause your exposure to the
eastern thinking in the westernmind, balance is a static
position.
But it's not.
And as fighters we understandthat balance is not a static
position.
It's a dynamic process, right.
(39:05):
So, in work-life balancesometimes.
Sometimes work becomes moreimportant, sometimes other
aspects of your life become moreimportant.
It's a matter of constantadjustment.
Right To always be trying tobring things to some sort of
equilibrium, but understandingthat they're never going to stay
that way.
How dull would that be anyway?
Jay Johnson (39:22):
A big difference between equilibrium and
harmonization and being able tosay, hey, you know what, this
week I really do need to put ina significant more amount of
effort into family, friends,self-care, whatever that is.
And this week, you know what Ireally do need to focus on my
tests, my certifications, mywork, my reporting, et cetera.
(39:45):
Yeah, no, it's so smart, jim.
Jim, this has been anincredible conversation and I
know that we could go on and Idefinitely I've gotten so many
takeaways from this.
I know our audience hasbenefited.
Question for you how would theaudience get in touch with you
if they wanted to reach out,learn more about your journey
(40:07):
and your approach to keeping ithuman?
Jim Bouchard (40:10):
Well, first of all , thanks, and let's make this
the first, not the lastconversation, and I want to have
you on Keep it Human becauseI'd like to hear more about your
perspectives, especially, youknow, in human behavior and
whatnot.
One thing we just launched wasreally cool and, I'm telling you
, just launched there's only ahandful of people on it.
I've dreamed about this foryears.
I'm telling you, it justlaunched, there's only a handful
of people on it.
I've dreamed about this foryears.
(40:30):
Keep it human All one word keepit human dot network, and
that's a platform.
It's on a platform calledMighty Networks, where we're
able to get people to share witheach other all over the world,
across industries, and we'restarting to populate it with a
lot of cool resources.
So there's a free sectionengage Just get on there.
Right now, you get everythingin the Engage section because
we're just starting out, andthen, if you're interested in
(40:53):
having me come and speak or doworkshops,
thehumancentricleaderorg is agood place
thehumancentricleaderorg, butI'm easy to find on LinkedIn and
all that stuff too.
Jay Johnson (41:04):
Excellent.
We'll make sure that's in theshow notes.
And little props to MightyNetworks.
I do actually very, very, verymuch like that system.
I do a lot of my coaching onthere, so yeah she came up with
a really cool platform.
Yeah, yep yep so well.
Thank you, jim.
I really appreciate your timeum, your vulnerability and
sharing your story, your journey, and also for so many great
(41:25):
takeaways that I honestly thinkthey can take from this podcast
put directly into their HRfunction and into their L&D to
help keep it human.
So thank you for being herewith us today, thanks for doing
what you're doing.
I appreciate it All right, andthank you, audience, for tuning
into this episode of the TalentForge, where we are shaping the
future of training anddevelopment.
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