September 19, 2025 • 35 mins
What if the secret to creating training that people actually want to complete has nothing to do with points, badges, or leaderboards? In this eye-opening episode of The Talent Forge, Dr. Natalie Makulski of Coeus Creative Group reveals how her deeply personal journey into gamification—which began with helping her grandmothers combat Alzheimer's and dementia—transformed her understanding of what truly drives engagement in learning.
Rather than focusing on the superficial elements of games, she delves into the psychological underpinnings that keep us coming back for more. Her research on Magic: The Gathering players uncovered a surprising truth: the most powerful element of gaming isn't competition or rewards—it's belonging.
This insight completely transforms how we should approach training design. Dr. Makulski challenges conventional wisdom by suggesting that competition between learners can actually undermine learning by creating subtle divisions. Instead, she advocates for collective challenges where learners work together against a common obstacle, fostering a shared identity that extends beyond the training event.
Whether you're a seasoned L&D professional or just starting out, this episode will forever change how you think about engagement in learning environments. Subscribe to The Talent Forge for more conversations that challenge conventional wisdom and provide actionable strategies to future-proof your training programs.
Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jayjohnsonccg/
Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jay Johnson (00:02):
Welcome to the Talent Forge shaping the future
of training and development withJay Johnson.
Welcome to this show wherewe're going to help you ignite
the potential within yourworkforce.
The Talent Forge isn't yourtypical training tips and
tactics podcast.
We delve deeper, exploring thefuture of L&D and how to design
programs that truly transformyour people.
Each episode, we tackle some ofthe most pressing questions
(00:25):
facing talent developmentprofessionals how can we build
engaging learning experiencesthat drive results?
How can we leverage technologyto personalize development
journeys and, most importantly,how can we empower our people to
reach their full potential?
We'll be sitting down withindustry thought leaders,
dissecting real-world casestudies and sharing actionable
strategies to future-proof yourtraining programs.
(00:47):
Whether you're a seasoned L&Dprofessional or just starting
out, the Talent Forge is yourone-stop shop to shape a
thriving learning culture withinyour organization.
Let's fire it up and step intothe Talent Forge.
Today, I'm joined by Dr NatalieMakulski of Coeus Creative
Group, an instructionaltechnology specialist who
inspires learning throughgamification and technology.
(01:09):
Welcome to the show, natalie.
Dr. Natalie Makulski (01:11):
Thank you.
Jay Johnson (01:13):
So, Natalie, you are someone who integrates games
into the learning experience.
Can you tell me a little bitabout your journey and path that
got you there?
Dr. Natalie Makulski (01:24):
the learning experience.
Can you tell me a little bitabout your journey and path that
got you there?
Sure, so games actually foundme when I was going through my
master's program.
I got into gaming because bothmy grandmas have Alzheimer's and
dementia and I read an articlethat gaming can help slow down
the progression of Alzheimer'sand dementia.
And you know they're mygrandparents.
(01:45):
I'm going to do whatever I canto help them.
So that's how I first startedgetting into gaming and then it
evolved from there, because Iwas teaching at the time and I
thought, wow, some of thesecognitive behaviors that I can
use with my grandparents I canalso bring into my third grade
classroom.
So my third graders were mytest bunnies for a while.
(02:08):
Um, and the different gamingelements that we brought in, I
don't.
When we think of gaming, peoplethink of the guts and the glory
.
They think of Grand Theft Auto.
They think of you know Mario.
They think of their nostalgicgame.
When I think of gaming, I thinkof well, why are you playing
that?
What's making you play that?
Why are you motivated to playthat?
We don't get money from games.
(02:28):
Well, terminally you do, butnot very much.
Jay Johnson (02:32):
I was going to say there's some YouTubers out there
that are making some money, butthat's few and far between.
Dr. Natalie Makulski (02:38):
Yes, yes, like why and how the average Joe
.
Why do they play it?
Why do children play it?
Why are we?
Why do they have video gameaddiction?
So I look at the kind of thesubconscious elements of gaming,
more so versus points, avatarand the customization of game.
Jay Johnson (02:55):
Well, I find it really interesting, natalie,
because we do have a little bitof a shared experience here.
My father is actually in thelate stages of Alzheimer's and
dementia and you know it is oneof those things that I have seen
him really react in a positiveway to games and to being able
to sort of engage in some of thefun exercises or experiences
(03:18):
that he had in the past.
Can you tell me, would you mindsharing, if you're open to it,
a little bit about how did thatplay out when you were in, you
know, incorporating games into,say, your grandparents' daily
lives?
What was the results and theimpact of that?
Dr. Natalie Makulski (03:34):
Sure.
So my grandma that passed away.
She had Alzheimer's so Ivolunteer at the Alzheimer's
Association and I never knewthat Alzheimer's was the part of
dementia.
So dementia is the big umbrellaand Alzheimer's is a part of it
.
My grandma with Alzheimer's.
When we used to play gamestogether I really thought it
(03:57):
helped connect her to herchildhood.
We played games that were a lotof motor activity because she
wasn't moving around as much.
So we play games like catch andwe play.
We used to, we used to play.
So I speak Polish too.
So we used to play Polish gameswhere we would count in Polish
(04:21):
and you know we pass it and wesay like you know that'll um.
So we play those games, helpingremind how to count but also
translating them into English.
So she really liked that, torebuild those memories with them
.
My other grandma has dementiaand you know I see that when she
(04:42):
plays she seems a little bitmore stronger.
I see that it also connects toher childhood.
We have this Shrek game thatyou can pull the little people
apart and she plays with Shrekand tells me about dolls when
she was a child.
So I see a lot of benefits ofthem bringing up their memories
and I see them being able torepeat the games again without
(05:04):
much direction of how to playthem.
So those are positive gainsthat I see when weeks we don't
play those with them.
I do have a book where I timethem to see how long it takes
them to play a game, and I'mreally happy to see that my
current grandma's alive still ithas to mention that her timing
really hasn't't changed that weare on a good path where in the
(05:25):
beginning it would take us, youknow, five minutes to play
shrek's memory game.
Now we're at a consistent threeminutes, so that's good.
I'm glad we're not having adeficit with that at all yeah,
it's so fascinating.
Jay Johnson (05:38):
When we originally took my dad in to have some of
the cognitive testing done,there was a series of different
memory games and that wasprobably the first time that I
really got a good indicationthat, okay, we're definitely
progressing down this pathway.
And to hear, and havingwitnessed personally how quickly
(06:01):
some of the different thingscan like just shift in that life
, to hear that you've been ableto kind of stabilize that
through gaming, that's justincredible.
And you know, I want to dig intoa moment about your motivation
to get into this space, becauseI think that's so important for
talent development professionals.
When we think about the motiveof why we get into a certain
(06:26):
area or why we specialize orwhat it is, it's often very
personal and it's something thatcan really inspire us to go to
that next level.
So let's link this back intothe training and talent
development world.
Natalie, when you think aboutgames, now I do know and I look
(06:47):
this up your dissertation wasabout how do we learn to play
games and exploration of noviceplayers' supports and
motivations when learning Magicthe Gathering so a very popular
game, and I know you're a littlesurprised that I probably
researched that out and found it.
But with that being said, youknow that's obviously something
(07:08):
that that motivation, thatinspiration.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat and how that shows up for
learners in a talent developmentenvironment?
Dr. Natalie Makulski (07:19):
Sure.
So, yeah, I am shocked that youlooked that up, because I
literally squeaked that right inbefore COVID happened, like two
days, but anyway, yeah.
So, motivation, why was I doingthat?
Click the button, move on.
(07:46):
And how do we know if people arecomprehending or learning?
And how can we make learningwhich helps us evolve as humans?
I think, how can we make thatbetter?
So, as, also being inspired bythat, you know, I wanted to look
at, well, how can I maketrainings better?
And I got into a higher edposition and I was doing
trainings and I thought, yeah, Ican just do a whole bunch of
(08:07):
trainings where I talk, or I cando a whole bunch of click the
button trainings, but that'sboring.
How can I make this better?
But I'm not going to throw awhole bunch of points at you.
That doesn't work, that doesn'thave longevity.
So what do we do?
And you know, looking at mytheories, mine are really
heavily embedded inself-determination theory,
(08:28):
victor Verroom's expectancytheory, and then community's
practice theory with Wegg andWagner.
I really looked at those andfrom my observation of, well,
how do these novice people stayso engaged?
You know, we get trainingmodules that work and we want to
be done with them faster thangoing to the dentist?
How do I make them come back,like when they come to hobby
(08:51):
shops and play?
How do I get that in there?
Why are they coming back?
So, for my study, I learned thebiggest thing was belonging.
People want to belong and youknow, the funniest thing that I
learned in my time as aresearcher was people don't just
have to belong with people,people belong with games.
And looking at Magic theGathering, it's a card game,
(09:14):
right?
And I watch so many peoplepersonify the cards and you see
their favorite cards.
They don't play them, they putthem off to the side because
they love that, right.
So it's so interesting andconnecting it to learning and
talent development.
Well, how do I make you love,belong to a module to take
(09:38):
training?
Why can't I just give you, youknow, a sparkly bell and
pre-level up?
Why don't you come back?
Well, because that's not strongenough for adults.
That's fun for little kids fora little bit, but that's not
strong enough.
So when I design learningtraining modules, I always think
of that.
How do we bring that belongingin there?
(09:58):
What if I can't bring anotherperson?
How do I bring that power thatI see in magic cards or Pokemon
cards to a training.
What do they do?
So?
That's when I incorporate morebelonging elements, such as
different styles, such asdifferent expectancies.
What do they expect to get outof this?
(10:20):
What are they wanting to do?
Different valiance, so I bringthose in there to help connect
them to the training modules.
Jay Johnson (10:27):
I want to unpack a couple of things that you said
there.
I find it so fascinating.
First of all is that concept ofimmersion.
You know, when we are immersedinto something it really does
make the time go faster, itmakes the learning easier, it
makes it more sticky.
And getting that concept intotrainings is something I think
(10:49):
is often missing.
You know PowerPoints and youknow handouts don't necessarily
make that person really feelimmersed in the learning
experience, but through games itseems like we can do that.
And you know, when I think abouta lot of buzz right now is
about the attention accountPeople don't have attention
enough to.
You know, maybe, quite frankly,there's a book Reality is
(11:30):
Broken, and I'm forgetting theauthor right now but she
basically says well, maybe ifthe real world was as exciting
as the game world, people wouldactually pay attention to it.
So I think about that and I goall right.
So it's really not aboutattention, it's really not about
experience.
It's much more about activatingsort of that need for play,
(11:53):
that interest, that belonging,as you say.
And when I've looked atdifferent game theories I've
seen different things, like thehigh achievers, the people that
want to get the best scores andeverything else.
I've seen things about the, youknow the social people that
really are just coming on.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout sort of that drive or that
(12:15):
motivation towards socialgaming, because I think that
plays a huge part in ourlearning.
We never really actually learnalone.
It's usually trying to learnwith other people or we bring
our learnings to other people.
So can you maybe focus in alittle bit on that motivation of
social learning as it appliesto that game theory?
Dr. Natalie Makulski (12:38):
Yeah.
So a great book that I love iscalled Minds on Fire by Mark
Crane, and it talks aboutreacting to the past.
It's a game that they play atCentral Michigan in a course,
and it is all about immersiontheory.
If you ever watch a footballplayer, right, how do they
transition from a civilian, asthey call themselves, to a
(12:59):
football player?
What do they do?
They have the gear.
Gear, they put the helmet on.
It's when we change and that'swhat you know.
When we, when we go into theselearning environments, you know
we kind of need to be immersedourselves into knowing that it's
time to be the learner, theplayer, whatever.
And then when we look atcommunity of practice, we learn
(13:21):
from other people.
It's better to be in groups,clubs, organizations, whatever,
with so many different people ofdifferent backgrounds, age,
ethnicities, value, because theyhave such a rich culture and
information that you don't know.
That helps you grow and you canapply it to a gamer or a game
(13:41):
or a learning situation.
You can apply it to a gamer ora game or a learning situation.
So, definitely, having thatbelonging with your group and
community, you know, I thinkworking here at COIUS the great
thing is the first day I gothired, you guys gave me one of
those awesome sweet sweater zipups that I love and right away
it was like I'm a team, like Ifelt like I'm on a football team
(14:01):
, I'm ready to participate, I'mready to learn.
And what I love also about COIUSis everybody at our work
environment is so different.
We are not the same and becauseof it and having even the guide
too, because of it I feel thatI've grown more in my job than I
ever have in a career.
(14:23):
And that's why it's soimportant to have these
communities of practice becauseyou're learning from other
people, you're hearing theirfailures, you're hearing their
success.
You do very well.
Every time we meet up, what'sour win?
We take those wins and we canapply them subconsciously to
ourselves and grow as well.
And, as I said, with everythinghere at COE, the great thing is
(14:46):
immersion is so predominant.
We are such a group kind oflike the Taylor Swift bracelets
that we have that belongingelement with the same clothes
sometimes and the samemerchandise.
That helps us understand andlearn and grow from each other.
And that's what we need in alearning, training, development
as to how do we belong, how dowe learn, how do we grow from
(15:10):
each other.
Jay Johnson (15:11):
You know, I find it interesting that concept of
learning, each learning fromeach other through games as well
.
I'm kind of recalling one of myyounger nephews who doesn't
necessarily play the games butliterally watches other people
play the games on YouTube, andthat was such a fascinating
thing to me.
I said, why are you interestedin this?
And they're like, oh well, I'mlearning how to play.
(15:33):
I'm like, well, how much timedo you actually spend watching
somebody else play versusplaying yourself?
And they were like, ah, it'sprobably I watch about 60% and
you know 40% actual playing.
I found that absolutelyfascinating when I was younger
give me the controller.
I want the controller in myhand, I want to be able to, you
know, engage in play.
But I loved having you knowthat second controller, somebody
(15:56):
next to me playing that gamealongside of me, and maybe they
did something that I learnedfrom.
But you know, as you, as youkind of bring this back, I do
think about that culture thatwas built, even if it was hey,
me and my friends have afavorite game that we all play
together and then we talk aboutit.
So, even if it wasn'tnecessarily done together, we
(16:16):
were still learning or sharingexperiences of the game, uh, in
a very, you know, sort of bondedway.
So that's such a neat, a neatexample.
Let me switch gears here forjust a moment.
Natalie, I want to go into.
You know, when you were talkingabout designing with some of
these different aspects in mind,right?
(16:38):
So you have that background ininstructional design I want to
talk about what are some waysthat our talent development
audience, whether they'recoaches, whether they're
trainers, whether they arepractitioners in any field, what
are some ways that they caneasily?
Because we know that the easierit is to incorporate new
learnings, the faster thatpeople adopt it.
So what are some ways ortechniques that you would
(17:01):
suggest?
Maybe people dabble in thisconcept of including games into
their offerings.
What are some different tipsmaybe that you would be able to
offer our audience to elevatetheir trainings with some of
that game theory in thebackground?
Absolutely.
Dr. Natalie Makulski (17:16):
You know, when I first got into gaming, I
thought I had to be all sparklyand glittery.
I had to be exactly like youknow.
Grand Theft Auto was verypopular.
When I first got into gaming, Ithought I had to be all sparkly
and glittery.
I had to be exactly like youknow.
Grand Theft Auto was verypopular.
When I got into gaming, I hadto design a Grand Theft Auto
game.
That's the only way you can getpeople to game right?
No, that's a total lie.
You don't need the toptechnology.
You don't need to make thiseccentric video game.
(17:39):
It can be as simple as changinga word.
There is so much power insaying we are leveling it up
when that means you're changingthe book page.
That is more powerful thanGrand Theft Auto video game.
Jay Johnson (17:57):
You know, to kind of dig into that, like even
thinking our ancient, ancientancestors played with bones and
played with you know anythingelse.
It was something that reallyactivated sort of that sense of
winning or that sense ofaccomplishment, solving a
problem.
So are you saying that I don'tneed to go back and get a degree
(18:18):
in, you know, video game designin order to really make this
effective in my training ortalent development experiences?
Dr. Natalie Makulski (18:28):
Yes, 1000% .
I think they're great.
That, if that's what you wantto do, I think they're great.
But I think, just being anaverage Joe getting into this, I
think the most powerful thingthat you will ever incorporate
into a training, whether it's inperson or online, is just
starting with the basics.
Just like I said, changing aword to level up, bringing that
(18:54):
immersion in.
If you're going to do atraining, you know maybe you
know, go with the Taylor Swiftidea.
Give them a bracelet, show thatthis is a community, so that
way, when other people areplaying, you know that somebody,
somewhere rather, you met them,picture, picture face to face,
whatever has that same braceletand that your team and you're
(19:14):
working together.
Look how powerful it is forTaylor Swift.
You know they create anearthquake.
The other deck.
This is exactly what we want tobring in.
Gaming is not throw a wholebunch of points at them.
You know people are stunnedwhen they hear me say I hate
points, I don't use them, I'llnever use them, they're not for
me.
I rather focus on thesubconscious elements, such as
(19:37):
freedom to fail.
Make it safe, they can fail.
Let them repeat over and overagain.
The best thing you can givesomebody is another chance and
look at the little things.
Don't try to be big like EASports.
Don't try to be something thatyou're not there yet.
You can be, but thesubconscious elements are just
(19:59):
as powerful as a great videogame.
Jay Johnson (20:01):
So let me ask this question.
I in in one of my effectivecommunications courses.
Obviously one of the bigcomponents of effective
communication is plain language,keeping it simple, et cetera.
You know, making sure it'sclear, concise.
So one of the games I guessit's a game, I never really
considered it a game is I havethe people you know sitting at
(20:22):
their tables and I will put aphrase up on a PowerPoint slide
that has like really, reallycomplex language, like a
teriosacritical ungate cannot be, you know, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah and whatever thatlanguage is, and I can't even
repeat it right now because itis literally so complex, but
it's all of the scientific termsthat essentially they have to
(20:43):
figure out.
If you lead a horse to water,you can't make it drink, and I
sort of I guess I gamify it insaying all right, first team to
get the answer to this, raisetheir hands.
And really it's to illustratethe point of communication
should be simple or in itssimplest form, so that way it's
transferred in a more effectiveway.
(21:05):
We can always choose largerwords or anything else, but it's
really unnecessary.
That's more speaker centricthan it is per se audience
centric.
Would that be considered a game?
Okay, so that's not a game.
Dr. Natalie Makulski (21:24):
Help me understand the difference
between those two things youhave some gaming elements, but
you're already out of the gate.
Um, you're hurting your.
You're hurting your team rightout of the gate because you're
making them compete against eachother.
Competition against each otheris great, great.
I understand.
You know nfl.
Look at how great teams competeagainst each other, right?
(21:45):
Classroom not so much.
Think about those sticker charts, right, we have back in the day
.
When you do great in a spellingtest, you know that child would
get a sticker, right?
Well, what about that kid thatdidn't get a sticker?
Do you think they felt likethey belonged in your classroom?
Do you think that they feltsmart?
Do you think that they wantedto be friends with those people?
(22:12):
A lot of people, unfortunately,at that point start hunger games
, start turning against eachother.
So, in this sense, you know youwant them to work together to
find what that term means,because your purpose, overall
purpose, is a big one.
I love objectives, I lovepurpose.
Why am I doing something that'sadult learning, right there?
Why am I doing it?
You want them to work togetheras a team, right?
Eventually they'll go intogroups.
They'll eventually have teamprojects.
(22:33):
Well, if they're competingagainst each other, first team
that raises their hand, thatother team from now on will
subconsciously always look atthem and be like, yeah, I was on
team A and he was on team B.
He won, I didn't.
We're not going to work toowell.
We already have hostility andyou know it's a game.
Ilth is out, but subconsciouslyit's always there.
(22:55):
What would be better is if yourstudents work together as
everybody, figure out what thismeans together and then, as a
group, get to it and give theminvisible points or, you know,
understand how this will gainthem more knowledge, because
knowledge is powerful for adultsmore than a point.
Jay Johnson (23:14):
Well, it's so funny you say that because I and this
is absolutely fascinating,right Like this is something
that I think happens very, veryfrequently in learning
experiences.
But you know, as you weretalking about this, I did think
about some different instancesand organizations where a team
in a learning experience gavethemselves a name and then
(23:35):
carried that name through likethe company for the next several
months and they identified withthat team that they had through
that learning experience.
So I can understand that youknow sort of lasting impression
that it can be like our team wonand I love these people versus
our team lost and I don't wantto be associated with this team
(23:56):
anymore.
So if I was to say improve,right, because this is the
talent forge, it's all aboutforging new paths in training
and development.
So if I was to forge my own newpath, I would look at this more
as a collective.
So the actual problem that I'mputting on the board that's the
big boss and the team iseverybody in that learning
(24:19):
experience who's going to try toovercome that boss, that big
boss challenge, and collectively, any of the tables that are
able to answer that questionreally wins for the whole team.
Is that maybe a little bitbetter or a little bit more
focused in this kind of concept.
Dr. Natalie Makulski (24:38):
Absolutely yes.
Yes, when I was a teacher, Ialways looked at my students.
They were my progress monitorfor myself as a teacher and as a
teacher overall.
We want all our students to besuccessful.
I've never had a studentthought that's the guy I'm going
to fail this semester.
Never thought in my life.
(25:01):
That's your purpose.
Your students are your progressmonitors.
You want them to be successful.
You want them to get it and, asI said, community practice,
bringing in those other lifeexperience, because maybe you
separate those two students thatneed to be together to learn
that one thing from each other.
They're on the opposite end,but when you bring them together
they get that aha moment andthen they can defeat the purpose
(25:22):
of the statement on the board.
Jay Johnson (25:24):
Then they can defeat the purpose of the
statement on the board.
You know what an incredibletiny little tweak that we can
add into our games that canreally make an experience
different.
And when we think about it, Imean our brain is so complex
that these small little patternshave a huge impact on future
outcomes.
Right, when we establish asmall sense of belonging, we
(25:46):
know that that can actuallydrive major cultural change.
It has an impact withpsychological safety.
It has an impact with teameffectiveness or being open and
being able to share information.
So if we were to look at otherways that we can sort of bridge
this concept of belonging into alearning experience or a
(26:08):
learning environment throughgaming, do you have any other
recommendations that you'd sharethat would maybe, I guess,
elevate that sense of belongingamongst people who are in our
training events?
Dr. Natalie Makulski (26:21):
I think the first thing, when you know
you have a group of students ortrainees, whoever you're working
with, give them the opportunity, make it kind of the softball
team.
And when we come into groupprojects in college or training
projects or learning development, those skills that you learn
(26:54):
from being a cheerleader or thecaptain of a softball team,
those are great for teamwork.
If I was building a team for atraining project, I would take a
cheerleader all the time,because the moment my team hits
that, you know slump off, thisisn't going to work, not
everything's awesome.
That cheerleader has thatexperience and prior knowledge
(27:16):
of to cheer us on, bring us up,and that's what we need to keep
going.
So I think another thing tobring in some belonging is let
your trainees or let yourstudents participants show who
they are and give themopportunities to share
experiences that we don't alwaysthink of.
You know everybody asks thatquestion of you.
(27:38):
Know what's your keys tosuccess.
Or you know what do you want tobe in the future, five years
from now?
Well, what were you in the past?
Because you have some priorknowledge, some prior activity
that you can bring in and it isvaluable.
So also, you know, bringingthat belonging in to show team,
because that way they'll showhow that they were the cheer
captain team and how they workedas a team.
(28:00):
So those are great things tobring into.
Jay Johnson (28:02):
I think that that also goes back to that identity
management, like when somebody'splaying Magic the Gathering and
all of a sudden they identifywith one of the characters or
one of the cards and they holdon to it.
So you're almost likemanifesting that back in by
helping them to create an avataror create an identity within
whatever the gaming context.
It's really fascinating and, Ithink, incredibly helpful to our
(28:26):
audience to be able to thinkabout some of these things and
being able to move their talent,development, games, uh forward.
I got one more question for youand I'm going to make this one
specific, so I'll give you amoment to think about it.
Let's talk about coaching.
Right, so we've talked a littlebit about the training
environment, where we have agroup of people in there, but
coaching sometimes can really bea one-to-one focus and it may
(28:49):
be a little bit more difficultfor us to bring in that concept
of okay, how do we bring inbelonging or how do we bring in
that sense of community learning?
Now, we do see a lot ofcoaching programs In fact, we do
a couple of them that are groupfocused, which I've seen has
huge impacts.
But if you are in thatone-to-one coaching space.
(29:10):
How might we be able to deploysome of these different tools
that you've talked about in ameaningful way, in sort of a
one-to-one environment?
Dr. Natalie Makulski (29:20):
Sure, you know, I know we think of
belonging.
Like I said, right, you have toconnect to a person where you
need that community to connectto.
But you know, what I foundfascinating with magic was there
was some gamers I'll call themthat would come to the game
store during tournaments orhobby play and they just sit
(29:42):
there and I always thought whydo these people keep coming back
there?
They don't play with otherpeople, they don't participate
in tournaments, they're notreally doing much with their
cards.
What is it here that draws themback?
And the most fascinating thing Ilearned from James Paul Gee
(30:02):
he's another gamer, if you'reinterested in learning more
about his books is he says thatthere's this one where it's self
to self, and that's when youstart looking at a game for
yourself and you're playingagainst yourself and you start
(30:23):
connecting to yourself more, youstart becoming more
metacognitive, you startthinking about your thinking and
you start writing notes toyourself and you start gaining
information from observations orbooks.
So just because it's aone-on-one, I know people always
think, oh, it's isolating, it'sisolating, it's bad.
I think that's the most timewhere we are the most creative
(30:47):
and the most gain the mostknowledge, because we are on our
own and we therefore kind of dothis weird thing where we kind
of you know, I'm not saying seeyourself outside of yourself,
but you kind of start looking atyourself more and you start
identifying yourself more, andthat's when you start
understanding yourself and yourknowledge more, and that's when
you start understanding yourselfand your knowledge more.
(31:07):
So how do you bring those in?
You start belonging withyourself, which sounds really
weird, but it is possible to dothat.
Jay Johnson (31:16):
Well, you know, connecting to ourselves,
connecting to our own creativityand even connecting to our own
performance.
I think about it.
I actually do gamification onmyself all the time to keep me
focused or to really drive like,all right, I just got to get to
X, y or Z today.
That is my goal, that is myaccomplishment and if I do that,
(31:36):
this is my reward for doingthat.
So I can see how really kind ofturning that inward and still
sort of creating that sense ofbelonging or even tying it back
to, okay, you're performing oryou're gaming by yourself right
now, but what does that mean forthe larger game of your
organization or the larger gameof your company, and really
(31:57):
helping them sort of align thatpersonal achievement back to
what is this going to mean foryour team or what is this going
to mean for your you know, yourculture, et cetera.
So I could see how that couldreally be a powerful way to
inspire not only performance butalso some of that
self-reflection.
So, natalie, this has beenabsolutely fascinating and I
(32:19):
want to say thank you for comingonto the show and for sharing
some of these knowledges.
You know, when we think about ifI'm to wrap this up for those
audience members who want to usegaming, really focus on that
belonging aspect of it.
Think about how those games andwe don't have to be an expert
in design or anything else,these games can be really simple
(32:41):
, but they can be veryinspirational make them have a
purpose, make them have theopportunity to really facilitate
and foster that engagement.
I think the tips and tacticsthat you shared here today will
definitely help us forge newpathways in gaming as it relates
to talent development.
So, audience, thank you forbeing here and listening to this
(33:03):
conversation with Dr NatalieMikulski of Coeus Creative Group
.
Thank you so much for theopportunity to engage you in
something that is shaping thefuture of training and talent
development.
Listen in next time when wecome back to the Talent Forge
and explore new topics inelevating all of our performance
.
Welcome to the Talent Forge shaping the future
of training and development withJay Johnson.
Welcome to this show wherewe're going to help you ignite
the potential within yourworkforce.
The Talent Forge isn't yourtypical training tips and
tactics podcast.
We delve deeper, exploring thefuture of L&D and how to design
programs that truly transformyour people.
Each episode, we tackle some ofthe most pressing questions
(00:25):
facing talent developmentprofessionals how can we build
engaging learning experiencesthat drive results?
How can we leverage technologyto personalize development
journeys and, most importantly,how can we empower our people to
reach their full potential?
We'll be sitting down withindustry thought leaders,
dissecting real-world casestudies and sharing actionable
strategies to future-proof yourtraining programs.
(00:47):
Whether you're a seasoned L&Dprofessional or just starting
out, the Talent Forge is yourone-stop shop to shape a
thriving learning culture withinyour organization.
Let's fire it up and step intothe Talent Forge.
Today, I'm joined by Dr NatalieMakulski of Coeus Creative
Group, an instructionaltechnology specialist who
inspires learning throughgamification and technology.
(01:09):
Welcome to the show, natalie.
Dr. Natalie Makulski (01:11):
Thank you.
Jay Johnson (01:13):
So, Natalie, you are someone who integrates games
into the learning experience.
Can you tell me a little bitabout your journey and path that
got you there?
Dr. Natalie Makulski (01:24):
the learning experience.
Can you tell me a little bitabout your journey and path that
got you there?
Sure, so games actually foundme when I was going through my
master's program.
I got into gaming because bothmy grandmas have Alzheimer's and
dementia and I read an articlethat gaming can help slow down
the progression of Alzheimer'sand dementia.
And you know they're mygrandparents.
(01:45):
I'm going to do whatever I canto help them.
So that's how I first startedgetting into gaming and then it
evolved from there, because Iwas teaching at the time and I
thought, wow, some of thesecognitive behaviors that I can
use with my grandparents I canalso bring into my third grade
classroom.
So my third graders were mytest bunnies for a while.
(02:08):
Um, and the different gamingelements that we brought in, I
don't.
When we think of gaming, peoplethink of the guts and the glory
.
They think of Grand Theft Auto.
They think of you know Mario.
They think of their nostalgicgame.
When I think of gaming, I thinkof well, why are you playing
that?
What's making you play that?
Why are you motivated to playthat?
We don't get money from games.
(02:28):
Well, terminally you do, butnot very much.
Jay Johnson (02:32):
I was going to say there's some YouTubers out there
that are making some money, butthat's few and far between.
Dr. Natalie Makulski (02:38):
Yes, yes, like why and how the average Joe
.
Why do they play it?
Why do children play it?
Why are we?
Why do they have video gameaddiction?
So I look at the kind of thesubconscious elements of gaming,
more so versus points, avatarand the customization of game.
Jay Johnson (02:55):
Well, I find it really interesting, natalie,
because we do have a little bitof a shared experience here.
My father is actually in thelate stages of Alzheimer's and
dementia and you know it is oneof those things that I have seen
him really react in a positiveway to games and to being able
to sort of engage in some of thefun exercises or experiences
(03:18):
that he had in the past.
Can you tell me, would you mindsharing, if you're open to it,
a little bit about how did thatplay out when you were in, you
know, incorporating games into,say, your grandparents' daily
lives?
What was the results and theimpact of that?
Dr. Natalie Makulski (03:34):
Sure.
So my grandma that passed away.
She had Alzheimer's so Ivolunteer at the Alzheimer's
Association and I never knewthat Alzheimer's was the part of
dementia.
So dementia is the big umbrellaand Alzheimer's is a part of it
.
My grandma with Alzheimer's.
When we used to play gamestogether I really thought it
(03:57):
helped connect her to herchildhood.
We played games that were a lotof motor activity because she
wasn't moving around as much.
So we play games like catch andwe play.
We used to, we used to play.
So I speak Polish too.
So we used to play Polish gameswhere we would count in Polish
(04:21):
and you know we pass it and wesay like you know that'll um.
So we play those games, helpingremind how to count but also
translating them into English.
So she really liked that, torebuild those memories with them
.
My other grandma has dementiaand you know I see that when she
(04:42):
plays she seems a little bitmore stronger.
I see that it also connects toher childhood.
We have this Shrek game thatyou can pull the little people
apart and she plays with Shrekand tells me about dolls when
she was a child.
So I see a lot of benefits ofthem bringing up their memories
and I see them being able torepeat the games again without
(05:04):
much direction of how to playthem.
So those are positive gainsthat I see when weeks we don't
play those with them.
I do have a book where I timethem to see how long it takes
them to play a game, and I'mreally happy to see that my
current grandma's alive still ithas to mention that her timing
really hasn't't changed that weare on a good path where in the
(05:25):
beginning it would take us, youknow, five minutes to play
shrek's memory game.
Now we're at a consistent threeminutes, so that's good.
I'm glad we're not having adeficit with that at all yeah,
it's so fascinating.
Jay Johnson (05:38):
When we originally took my dad in to have some of
the cognitive testing done,there was a series of different
memory games and that wasprobably the first time that I
really got a good indicationthat, okay, we're definitely
progressing down this pathway.
And to hear, and havingwitnessed personally how quickly
(06:01):
some of the different thingscan like just shift in that life
, to hear that you've been ableto kind of stabilize that
through gaming, that's justincredible.
And you know, I want to dig intoa moment about your motivation
to get into this space, becauseI think that's so important for
talent development professionals.
When we think about the motiveof why we get into a certain
(06:26):
area or why we specialize orwhat it is, it's often very
personal and it's something thatcan really inspire us to go to
that next level.
So let's link this back intothe training and talent
development world.
Natalie, when you think aboutgames, now I do know and I look
(06:47):
this up your dissertation wasabout how do we learn to play
games and exploration of noviceplayers' supports and
motivations when learning Magicthe Gathering so a very popular
game, and I know you're a littlesurprised that I probably
researched that out and found it.
But with that being said, youknow that's obviously something
(07:08):
that that motivation, thatinspiration.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat and how that shows up for
learners in a talent developmentenvironment?
Dr. Natalie Makulski (07:19):
Sure.
So, yeah, I am shocked that youlooked that up, because I
literally squeaked that right inbefore COVID happened, like two
days, but anyway, yeah.
So, motivation, why was I doingthat?
Click the button, move on.
(07:46):
And how do we know if people arecomprehending or learning?
And how can we make learningwhich helps us evolve as humans?
I think, how can we make thatbetter?
So, as, also being inspired bythat, you know, I wanted to look
at, well, how can I maketrainings better?
And I got into a higher edposition and I was doing
trainings and I thought, yeah, Ican just do a whole bunch of
(08:07):
trainings where I talk, or I cando a whole bunch of click the
button trainings, but that'sboring.
How can I make this better?
But I'm not going to throw awhole bunch of points at you.
That doesn't work, that doesn'thave longevity.
So what do we do?
And you know, looking at mytheories, mine are really
heavily embedded inself-determination theory,
(08:28):
victor Verroom's expectancytheory, and then community's
practice theory with Wegg andWagner.
I really looked at those andfrom my observation of, well,
how do these novice people stayso engaged?
You know, we get trainingmodules that work and we want to
be done with them faster thangoing to the dentist?
How do I make them come back,like when they come to hobby
(08:51):
shops and play?
How do I get that in there?
Why are they coming back?
So, for my study, I learned thebiggest thing was belonging.
People want to belong and youknow, the funniest thing that I
learned in my time as aresearcher was people don't just
have to belong with people,people belong with games.
And looking at Magic theGathering, it's a card game,
(09:14):
right?
And I watch so many peoplepersonify the cards and you see
their favorite cards.
They don't play them, they putthem off to the side because
they love that, right.
So it's so interesting andconnecting it to learning and
talent development.
Well, how do I make you love,belong to a module to take
(09:38):
training?
Why can't I just give you, youknow, a sparkly bell and
pre-level up?
Why don't you come back?
Well, because that's not strongenough for adults.
That's fun for little kids fora little bit, but that's not
strong enough.
So when I design learningtraining modules, I always think
of that.
How do we bring that belongingin there?
(09:58):
What if I can't bring anotherperson?
How do I bring that power thatI see in magic cards or Pokemon
cards to a training.
What do they do?
So?
That's when I incorporate morebelonging elements, such as
different styles, such asdifferent expectancies.
What do they expect to get outof this?
(10:20):
What are they wanting to do?
Different valiance, so I bringthose in there to help connect
them to the training modules.
Jay Johnson (10:27):
I want to unpack a couple of things that you said
there.
I find it so fascinating.
First of all is that concept ofimmersion.
You know, when we are immersedinto something it really does
make the time go faster, itmakes the learning easier, it
makes it more sticky.
And getting that concept intotrainings is something I think
(10:49):
is often missing.
You know PowerPoints and youknow handouts don't necessarily
make that person really feelimmersed in the learning
experience, but through games itseems like we can do that.
And you know, when I think abouta lot of buzz right now is
about the attention accountPeople don't have attention
enough to.
You know, maybe, quite frankly,there's a book Reality is
(11:30):
Broken, and I'm forgetting theauthor right now but she
basically says well, maybe ifthe real world was as exciting
as the game world, people wouldactually pay attention to it.
So I think about that and I goall right.
So it's really not aboutattention, it's really not about
experience.
It's much more about activatingsort of that need for play,
(11:53):
that interest, that belonging,as you say.
And when I've looked atdifferent game theories I've
seen different things, like thehigh achievers, the people that
want to get the best scores andeverything else.
I've seen things about the, youknow the social people that
really are just coming on.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout sort of that drive or that
(12:15):
motivation towards socialgaming, because I think that
plays a huge part in ourlearning.
We never really actually learnalone.
It's usually trying to learnwith other people or we bring
our learnings to other people.
So can you maybe focus in alittle bit on that motivation of
social learning as it appliesto that game theory?
Dr. Natalie Makulski (12:38):
Yeah.
So a great book that I love iscalled Minds on Fire by Mark
Crane, and it talks aboutreacting to the past.
It's a game that they play atCentral Michigan in a course,
and it is all about immersiontheory.
If you ever watch a footballplayer, right, how do they
transition from a civilian, asthey call themselves, to a
(12:59):
football player?
What do they do?
They have the gear.
Gear, they put the helmet on.
It's when we change and that'swhat you know.
When we, when we go into theselearning environments, you know
we kind of need to be immersedourselves into knowing that it's
time to be the learner, theplayer, whatever.
And then when we look atcommunity of practice, we learn
(13:21):
from other people.
It's better to be in groups,clubs, organizations, whatever,
with so many different people ofdifferent backgrounds, age,
ethnicities, value, because theyhave such a rich culture and
information that you don't know.
That helps you grow and you canapply it to a gamer or a game
(13:41):
or a learning situation.
You can apply it to a gamer ora game or a learning situation.
So, definitely, having thatbelonging with your group and
community, you know, I thinkworking here at COIUS the great
thing is the first day I gothired, you guys gave me one of
those awesome sweet sweater zipups that I love and right away
it was like I'm a team, like Ifelt like I'm on a football team
(14:01):
, I'm ready to participate, I'mready to learn.
And what I love also about COIUSis everybody at our work
environment is so different.
We are not the same and becauseof it and having even the guide
too, because of it I feel thatI've grown more in my job than I
ever have in a career.
(14:23):
And that's why it's soimportant to have these
communities of practice becauseyou're learning from other
people, you're hearing theirfailures, you're hearing their
success.
You do very well.
Every time we meet up, what'sour win?
We take those wins and we canapply them subconsciously to
ourselves and grow as well.
And, as I said, with everythinghere at COE, the great thing is
(14:46):
immersion is so predominant.
We are such a group kind oflike the Taylor Swift bracelets
that we have that belongingelement with the same clothes
sometimes and the samemerchandise.
That helps us understand andlearn and grow from each other.
And that's what we need in alearning, training, development
as to how do we belong, how dowe learn, how do we grow from
(15:10):
each other.
Jay Johnson (15:11):
You know, I find it interesting that concept of
learning, each learning fromeach other through games as well
.
I'm kind of recalling one of myyounger nephews who doesn't
necessarily play the games butliterally watches other people
play the games on YouTube, andthat was such a fascinating
thing to me.
I said, why are you interestedin this?
And they're like, oh well, I'mlearning how to play.
(15:33):
I'm like, well, how much timedo you actually spend watching
somebody else play versusplaying yourself?
And they were like, ah, it'sprobably I watch about 60% and
you know 40% actual playing.
I found that absolutelyfascinating when I was younger
give me the controller.
I want the controller in myhand, I want to be able to, you
know, engage in play.
But I loved having you knowthat second controller, somebody
(15:56):
next to me playing that gamealongside of me, and maybe they
did something that I learnedfrom.
But you know, as you, as youkind of bring this back, I do
think about that culture thatwas built, even if it was hey,
me and my friends have afavorite game that we all play
together and then we talk aboutit.
So, even if it wasn'tnecessarily done together, we
(16:16):
were still learning or sharingexperiences of the game, uh, in
a very, you know, sort of bondedway.
So that's such a neat, a neatexample.
Let me switch gears here forjust a moment.
Natalie, I want to go into.
You know, when you were talkingabout designing with some of
these different aspects in mind,right?
(16:38):
So you have that background ininstructional design I want to
talk about what are some waysthat our talent development
audience, whether they'recoaches, whether they're
trainers, whether they arepractitioners in any field, what
are some ways that they caneasily?
Because we know that the easierit is to incorporate new
learnings, the faster thatpeople adopt it.
So what are some ways ortechniques that you would
(17:01):
suggest?
Maybe people dabble in thisconcept of including games into
their offerings.
What are some different tipsmaybe that you would be able to
offer our audience to elevatetheir trainings with some of
that game theory in thebackground?
Absolutely.
Dr. Natalie Makulski (17:16):
You know, when I first got into gaming, I
thought I had to be all sparklyand glittery.
I had to be exactly like youknow.
Grand Theft Auto was verypopular.
When I first got into gaming, Ithought I had to be all sparkly
and glittery.
I had to be exactly like youknow.
Grand Theft Auto was verypopular.
When I got into gaming, I hadto design a Grand Theft Auto
game.
That's the only way you can getpeople to game right?
No, that's a total lie.
You don't need the toptechnology.
You don't need to make thiseccentric video game.
(17:39):
It can be as simple as changinga word.
There is so much power insaying we are leveling it up
when that means you're changingthe book page.
That is more powerful thanGrand Theft Auto video game.
Jay Johnson (17:57):
You know, to kind of dig into that, like even
thinking our ancient, ancientancestors played with bones and
played with you know anythingelse.
It was something that reallyactivated sort of that sense of
winning or that sense ofaccomplishment, solving a
problem.
So are you saying that I don'tneed to go back and get a degree
(18:18):
in, you know, video game designin order to really make this
effective in my training ortalent development experiences?
Dr. Natalie Makulski (18:28):
Yes, 1000% .
I think they're great.
That, if that's what you wantto do, I think they're great.
But I think, just being anaverage Joe getting into this, I
think the most powerful thingthat you will ever incorporate
into a training, whether it's inperson or online, is just
starting with the basics.
Just like I said, changing aword to level up, bringing that
(18:54):
immersion in.
If you're going to do atraining, you know maybe you
know, go with the Taylor Swiftidea.
Give them a bracelet, show thatthis is a community, so that
way, when other people areplaying, you know that somebody,
somewhere rather, you met them,picture, picture face to face,
whatever has that same braceletand that your team and you're
(19:14):
working together.
Look how powerful it is forTaylor Swift.
You know they create anearthquake.
The other deck.
This is exactly what we want tobring in.
Gaming is not throw a wholebunch of points at them.
You know people are stunnedwhen they hear me say I hate
points, I don't use them, I'llnever use them, they're not for
me.
I rather focus on thesubconscious elements, such as
(19:37):
freedom to fail.
Make it safe, they can fail.
Let them repeat over and overagain.
The best thing you can givesomebody is another chance and
look at the little things.
Don't try to be big like EASports.
Don't try to be something thatyou're not there yet.
You can be, but thesubconscious elements are just
(19:59):
as powerful as a great videogame.
Jay Johnson (20:01):
So let me ask this question.
I in in one of my effectivecommunications courses.
Obviously one of the bigcomponents of effective
communication is plain language,keeping it simple, et cetera.
You know, making sure it'sclear, concise.
So one of the games I guessit's a game, I never really
considered it a game is I havethe people you know sitting at
(20:22):
their tables and I will put aphrase up on a PowerPoint slide
that has like really, reallycomplex language, like a
teriosacritical ungate cannot be, you know, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah and whatever thatlanguage is, and I can't even
repeat it right now because itis literally so complex, but
it's all of the scientific termsthat essentially they have to
(20:43):
figure out.
If you lead a horse to water,you can't make it drink, and I
sort of I guess I gamify it insaying all right, first team to
get the answer to this, raisetheir hands.
And really it's to illustratethe point of communication
should be simple or in itssimplest form, so that way it's
transferred in a more effectiveway.
(21:05):
We can always choose largerwords or anything else, but it's
really unnecessary.
That's more speaker centricthan it is per se audience
centric.
Would that be considered a game?
Okay, so that's not a game.
Dr. Natalie Makulski (21:24):
Help me understand the difference
between those two things youhave some gaming elements, but
you're already out of the gate.
Um, you're hurting your.
You're hurting your team rightout of the gate because you're
making them compete against eachother.
Competition against each otheris great, great.
I understand.
You know nfl.
Look at how great teams competeagainst each other, right?
(21:45):
Classroom not so much.
Think about those sticker charts, right, we have back in the day
.
When you do great in a spellingtest, you know that child would
get a sticker, right?
Well, what about that kid thatdidn't get a sticker?
Do you think they felt likethey belonged in your classroom?
Do you think that they feltsmart?
Do you think that they wantedto be friends with those people?
(22:12):
A lot of people, unfortunately,at that point start hunger games
, start turning against eachother.
So, in this sense, you know youwant them to work together to
find what that term means,because your purpose, overall
purpose, is a big one.
I love objectives, I lovepurpose.
Why am I doing something that'sadult learning, right there?
Why am I doing it?
You want them to work togetheras a team, right?
Eventually they'll go intogroups.
They'll eventually have teamprojects.
(22:33):
Well, if they're competingagainst each other, first team
that raises their hand, thatother team from now on will
subconsciously always look atthem and be like, yeah, I was on
team A and he was on team B.
He won, I didn't.
We're not going to work toowell.
We already have hostility andyou know it's a game.
Ilth is out, but subconsciouslyit's always there.
(22:55):
What would be better is if yourstudents work together as
everybody, figure out what thismeans together and then, as a
group, get to it and give theminvisible points or, you know,
understand how this will gainthem more knowledge, because
knowledge is powerful for adultsmore than a point.
Jay Johnson (23:14):
Well, it's so funny you say that because I and this
is absolutely fascinating,right Like this is something
that I think happens very, veryfrequently in learning
experiences.
But you know, as you weretalking about this, I did think
about some different instancesand organizations where a team
in a learning experience gavethemselves a name and then
(23:35):
carried that name through likethe company for the next several
months and they identified withthat team that they had through
that learning experience.
So I can understand that youknow sort of lasting impression
that it can be like our team wonand I love these people versus
our team lost and I don't wantto be associated with this team
(23:56):
anymore.
So if I was to say improve,right, because this is the
talent forge, it's all aboutforging new paths in training
and development.
So if I was to forge my own newpath, I would look at this more
as a collective.
So the actual problem that I'mputting on the board that's the
big boss and the team iseverybody in that learning
(24:19):
experience who's going to try toovercome that boss, that big
boss challenge, and collectively, any of the tables that are
able to answer that questionreally wins for the whole team.
Is that maybe a little bitbetter or a little bit more
focused in this kind of concept.
Dr. Natalie Makulski (24:38):
Absolutely yes.
Yes, when I was a teacher, Ialways looked at my students.
They were my progress monitorfor myself as a teacher and as a
teacher overall.
We want all our students to besuccessful.
I've never had a studentthought that's the guy I'm going
to fail this semester.
Never thought in my life.
(25:01):
That's your purpose.
Your students are your progressmonitors.
You want them to be successful.
You want them to get it and, asI said, community practice,
bringing in those other lifeexperience, because maybe you
separate those two students thatneed to be together to learn
that one thing from each other.
They're on the opposite end,but when you bring them together
they get that aha moment andthen they can defeat the purpose
(25:22):
of the statement on the board.
Jay Johnson (25:24):
Then they can defeat the purpose of the
statement on the board.
You know what an incredibletiny little tweak that we can
add into our games that canreally make an experience
different.
And when we think about it, Imean our brain is so complex
that these small little patternshave a huge impact on future
outcomes.
Right, when we establish asmall sense of belonging, we
(25:46):
know that that can actuallydrive major cultural change.
It has an impact withpsychological safety.
It has an impact with teameffectiveness or being open and
being able to share information.
So if we were to look at otherways that we can sort of bridge
this concept of belonging into alearning experience or a
(26:08):
learning environment throughgaming, do you have any other
recommendations that you'd sharethat would maybe, I guess,
elevate that sense of belongingamongst people who are in our
training events?
Dr. Natalie Makulski (26:21):
I think the first thing, when you know
you have a group of students ortrainees, whoever you're working
with, give them the opportunity, make it kind of the softball
team.
And when we come into groupprojects in college or training
projects or learning development, those skills that you learn
(26:54):
from being a cheerleader or thecaptain of a softball team,
those are great for teamwork.
If I was building a team for atraining project, I would take a
cheerleader all the time,because the moment my team hits
that, you know slump off, thisisn't going to work, not
everything's awesome.
That cheerleader has thatexperience and prior knowledge
(27:16):
of to cheer us on, bring us up,and that's what we need to keep
going.
So I think another thing tobring in some belonging is let
your trainees or let yourstudents participants show who
they are and give themopportunities to share
experiences that we don't alwaysthink of.
You know everybody asks thatquestion of you.
(27:38):
Know what's your keys tosuccess.
Or you know what do you want tobe in the future, five years
from now?
Well, what were you in the past?
Because you have some priorknowledge, some prior activity
that you can bring in and it isvaluable.
So also, you know, bringingthat belonging in to show team,
because that way they'll showhow that they were the cheer
captain team and how they workedas a team.
(28:00):
So those are great things tobring into.
Jay Johnson (28:02):
I think that that also goes back to that identity
management, like when somebody'splaying Magic the Gathering and
all of a sudden they identifywith one of the characters or
one of the cards and they holdon to it.
So you're almost likemanifesting that back in by
helping them to create an avataror create an identity within
whatever the gaming context.
It's really fascinating and, Ithink, incredibly helpful to our
(28:26):
audience to be able to thinkabout some of these things and
being able to move their talent,development, games, uh forward.
I got one more question for youand I'm going to make this one
specific, so I'll give you amoment to think about it.
Let's talk about coaching.
Right, so we've talked a littlebit about the training
environment, where we have agroup of people in there, but
coaching sometimes can really bea one-to-one focus and it may
(28:49):
be a little bit more difficultfor us to bring in that concept
of okay, how do we bring inbelonging or how do we bring in
that sense of community learning?
Now, we do see a lot ofcoaching programs In fact, we do
a couple of them that are groupfocused, which I've seen has
huge impacts.
But if you are in thatone-to-one coaching space.
(29:10):
How might we be able to deploysome of these different tools
that you've talked about in ameaningful way, in sort of a
one-to-one environment?
Dr. Natalie Makulski (29:20):
Sure, you know, I know we think of
belonging.
Like I said, right, you have toconnect to a person where you
need that community to connectto.
But you know, what I foundfascinating with magic was there
was some gamers I'll call themthat would come to the game
store during tournaments orhobby play and they just sit
(29:42):
there and I always thought whydo these people keep coming back
there?
They don't play with otherpeople, they don't participate
in tournaments, they're notreally doing much with their
cards.
What is it here that draws themback?
And the most fascinating thing Ilearned from James Paul Gee
(30:02):
he's another gamer, if you'reinterested in learning more
about his books is he says thatthere's this one where it's self
to self, and that's when youstart looking at a game for
yourself and you're playingagainst yourself and you start
(30:23):
connecting to yourself more, youstart becoming more
metacognitive, you startthinking about your thinking and
you start writing notes toyourself and you start gaining
information from observations orbooks.
So just because it's aone-on-one, I know people always
think, oh, it's isolating, it'sisolating, it's bad.
I think that's the most timewhere we are the most creative
(30:47):
and the most gain the mostknowledge, because we are on our
own and we therefore kind of dothis weird thing where we kind
of you know, I'm not saying seeyourself outside of yourself,
but you kind of start looking atyourself more and you start
identifying yourself more, andthat's when you start
understanding yourself and yourknowledge more, and that's when
you start understanding yourselfand your knowledge more.
(31:07):
So how do you bring those in?
You start belonging withyourself, which sounds really
weird, but it is possible to dothat.
Jay Johnson (31:16):
Well, you know, connecting to ourselves,
connecting to our own creativityand even connecting to our own
performance.
I think about it.
I actually do gamification onmyself all the time to keep me
focused or to really drive like,all right, I just got to get to
X, y or Z today.
That is my goal, that is myaccomplishment and if I do that,
(31:36):
this is my reward for doingthat.
So I can see how really kind ofturning that inward and still
sort of creating that sense ofbelonging or even tying it back
to, okay, you're performing oryou're gaming by yourself right
now, but what does that mean forthe larger game of your
organization or the larger gameof your company, and really
(31:57):
helping them sort of align thatpersonal achievement back to
what is this going to mean foryour team or what is this going
to mean for your you know, yourculture, et cetera.
So I could see how that couldreally be a powerful way to
inspire not only performance butalso some of that
self-reflection.
So, natalie, this has beenabsolutely fascinating and I
(32:19):
want to say thank you for comingonto the show and for sharing
some of these knowledges.
You know, when we think about ifI'm to wrap this up for those
audience members who want to usegaming, really focus on that
belonging aspect of it.
Think about how those games andwe don't have to be an expert
in design or anything else,these games can be really simple
(32:41):
, but they can be veryinspirational make them have a
purpose, make them have theopportunity to really facilitate
and foster that engagement.
I think the tips and tacticsthat you shared here today will
definitely help us forge newpathways in gaming as it relates
to talent development.
So, audience, thank you forbeing here and listening to this
(33:03):
conversation with Dr NatalieMikulski of Coeus Creative Group
.
Thank you so much for theopportunity to engage you in
something that is shaping thefuture of training and talent
development.
Listen in next time when wecome back to the Talent Forge
and explore new topics inelevating all of our performance
.
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