November 7, 2024 • 18 mins
Stephanie is joined by Jennifer White from ThinkingAhead’s legal recruiting space, who shares the unique challenges and rewards of working with firms, explains retained vs. contingency searches, partners vs. vendors, and more wisdom from her top-producing desk.
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Episode Transcript
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Stephanie Maas (00:07):
Hello and welcome to The Talent Trade. I
am your host. Stephanie Maas,partner with ThinkingAhead
Executive Search, and today, Iam super jazzed to have one of
the best of the best in thebusiness with us today. Jenn
White joined our firm threeyears ago. She came out of the
(00:28):
gates swinging. She broke our 20plus year top first year record,
and has been a top producerevery year since then in the
legal recruiting space. Superhappy to have you with us and
Jenn, I'll let you tell us alittle bit more about you and
your niche, and then we'll diveinto our topic.
Jennifer White (00:45):
Thank you so much. Steph, yes, I joined three
years ago in the legal space. Ihave been in sales and marketing
for, I would say, my entirecareer, in one aspect or the
other. And I love recruiting forlaw firms and for attorneys.
It's a great group of people toget to know and to chat with.
(01:06):
Most attorneys are networkers atheart, because they have their
own kind of sense of book ofbusiness that they're trying to
build. So in ways, we kind ofline up in that in that sense.
So I really, really enjoyed it.We have a wonderful team, and my
coworkers on my team I just loveso I feel very blessed to be
here.
Stephanie Maas (01:24):
We're super, super thankful to have you. So
today, Jenn, my understanding isyou are going to lead us through
a little bit of a discussion asit relates to partnership versus
vendor, all that stuff in thelegal recruiting business.
Jennifer White (01:42):
So a lot of times, the way that things work
when you are in the legalrecruiting field is there's
different types of ways that youcan partner with law firms. The
law firms are considered theclient and the attorneys are
considered the candidate. And ifyou can kind of liken it a
little bit to real estate, wherethe clients are the sellers, and
then the candidates are thebuyers. So what you're trying to
(02:05):
do is get to know your clients,your firms, as much as possible,
and be able to have the respectthat they would be calling you.
So what I thought would be agood idea is to kind of go
through the steps of how to getto be at the desk in the C suite
with these firms. So there'sdifferent types of searches that
(02:25):
you have. You can start out witha contingent search, which
basically means they have aneed, and they're sending it out
to all the recruiters out thereand candidates alike. Sometimes
it will be posted on their ontheir firm websites. That's a
little bit like acting likeyou're a sports agent, so you
have the talent, and you're kindof shopping them around to each
(02:46):
of these firms. So that's that'sthe contingent basis. Everyone
has the same shot at the personthat you are working with, the
candidate. So the good thingabout that is that you have a
lot of shots on goal. You canhave this candidate go out to
different types of firms.However, there's no guarantee
that you're going to get paid,so sometimes what you do is
(03:06):
you'll try to have that firm, afirm in particular, be a client
that you want to have a retainedsearch with. And what that means
is that you're identifying afirm that you feel like has
great opportunities. Because Ithink that's one thing, is
identifying which firms you wantto work with is just as key as
(03:27):
them identifying whichrecruiters. Because if you have
a search that no one wants, andit's a it's a dog search, then
you're really kind of shittingyourself in the foot. Because
even though you may get money upfront, you are probably not
going to get the rest of thatmoney, because it's a really
difficult sign. So when youidentify the firm and you
realize that it's a great firmthat you want to work with,
(03:48):
that's number one. But you haveto make sure that the firm's
good. You're going to have asuccessful search. It's actually
something that people are goingto want to join. That's kind of
what I think it's important forpeople to realize you don't just
want to work with anyone. Andthen the approach of how you
want to work with these firmscan be either you identified
them and you've never workedwith them and never placed with
(04:08):
them, but you've always knownabout them, and you're going to
pitch that routine search rightoff the bat. Then there's the
way that you have worked withthem in the contingent side.
That's kind of how I like to doit, because you kind of want to
work and you kind of want toplace somebody at these firms.
You want to know the entireprocess from start to finish,
because when you're going toretain search, you're really
(04:28):
promising them that they willfind the talent they're paying
you, and it's only you searchingfor them. So knowing the ins and
out of that firm, I think, isreally important. So the
approach would be, in myopinion, work with them on a
contingent basis. Then if youwant to go in and then have the
retained basis, you kind ofunderstand some bumps up front,
and you're not kind of settingyourself up for disappointment.
(04:50):
But that being said, it'sdefinitely fine to go ahead and
pitch for the retained if it's afirm that you feel like you want
to work with and you feel likeit's a great shot. So I don't
want to sway anyone that way.But my approach, I like to kind
of go with the contingent andthen retained, and then once you
do have that ability to partnerwith a firm, it's really great
(05:12):
to make sure that you know whothe key players are. A lot of
times in these firms, especiallywith legal, they always use
recruiter, so there'll be an inhouse recruiter that you might
have the the initialconversations with, which is
great. They're usually reallygood at what they do. They're
going to be able to lead youdown the path and have your
(05:32):
pitch kick off. But what I wouldrecommend too, is having the
discussion with them that ifthings are getting a little
sticky, a little hairy, you'rebringing in some candidates that
you feel like they should behiring, and it's not going well.
Make sure you have the abilityto reach out to the managing
partners one on one, becausesometimes things just get lost
in a shuffle. Sometimes, youknow, playing operator, what you
(05:55):
think you're hearing, and whatyou think with and what they're
saying might not be exactlycoming across. So you just want
to make sure that you have aclear line to the decision
makers. Definitely talk to thepeople that you're supposed to
talk to. You don't want to goaround anyone's back, but make
sure that if things are notgoing as well as planned, that
you do have the ability to goright to the horse's mouth and
(06:18):
the decision maker. And then theother thing too that's important
to focus on when you arepartnering with a firm is
maintaining those objectives andmaintaining the satisfaction
level that that you werepromising them. If you feel like
there's something that'shappening that is not going well
either, whether or not thecandidate is you're not being
able to find the candidates.Because that's one thing too
(06:40):
that can be a little bit nervewracking. You can get these
pitches. You can be at the tablewith them. You can tell them,
hey, I'm going to be able tofind this candidate. Don't
worry. And you go out there andit's just the toughest search
that you could ever work on. Behonest and let them know you're
going to be showing your work.You're going to be showing your
efforts. You're going to behaving your bi weekly meetings
(07:01):
with them, telling Hey, I'vemade 100 calls this week. I've
had this reaction to thissearch. And I think the other
thing too is making sure thatyou feel honest enough to give
them that honest feedback.Sometimes, you know, a managing
partner may be really difficultto work with, and they have a
reputation that could besomething that you find out
(07:23):
after you already signed thedotted line and gotten your
retained deposit down. So youjust want to make sure that
you're always just tactfullyshowing them what it is that
they need to say. Because look,if they know the managing
partner, might be difficult.They never were told that. So
either way, good news, bad news,I think, is also what you want
(07:44):
to do in order to maintain thatrelationship with them. Think
the other thing too is, is thatsometimes things may not work
out as well as you had hoped. Soyou have to remember that there
might be a time for you to pivotaway from that relationship, in
a sense. So if that's the case,just make sure you're not
burning any bridges. Do yourbest that you can do. I think
(08:05):
the other thing too is helpingto have that communication of
how often you should becommunicating with them during
the search, if you are doingeverything that you could if
they wanted you to get them allthis information. And it didn't
go well, still, I think thething that you can always do is
just say, hey, you know what? Irespect you guys. I think that
I've tapped the market out.Maybe it's time for you guys to
(08:28):
go find another recruiter thatyou feel like might have a fresh
eye. So it's just kind ofimportant to make sure that you
also have that ability to kindof part ways and not have to
always just hang on to that oneparticular client, because once
you do sit at that table, you'regoing to be having a lot of time
and effort from your own desksearching for this particular
(08:49):
search. So you just want to makesure that you're still able to
keep some things, some irons inthe fire while you're busy with
that.
Stephanie Maas (08:55):
Super cool. I'm gonna go back and ask a couple
questions along the way that Ithink might be super helpful. I
know a lot of folks get pushedback from internal talent
acquisition folks about workingdirectly with the hiring
manager, and I would imagine,especially in your niche, with
attorneys billing by the hourwith some of the language, or
what are some of the ways thatyou're able to kind of break
(09:18):
through that internal stiff farmto really get the time and
attention of the decisionmakers.
Jennifer White (09:25):
I think that for one if you are exhausting the
limit to where you are with thatone particular person who you're
supposed to quote, unquote, beworking with, if you feel like
things are just not going wellthat I have in in the past, just
reached out directly to thatmanaging partner. Don't worry
(09:47):
about it. Email them say, Hey, Ithink that there's been a couple
of miscommunications. Or hey,this candidate seems to be add
everything that you have lookedfor. I'm not sure why things
aren't progressing. The way thatthey should. I would love just
to bend your ear five minutes atthe most. Can you let me know
if, after hours I could, I couldhave a conversation with you.
(10:10):
That's usually when they'll be alittle bit more receptive. I
mean, what I did have thisconversation, it was at 730 at
night. I didn't care. Theydidn't care. But it was kind of
meeting them where they neededto be. I think that that's the
other thing too, is give themthe opportunity to kind of be
outside of work hours to talk.
Stephanie Maas (10:30):
And then when you do that, do you ever get
that proverbial slap on thewrist saying, Hey, I told you
not to communicate with them.And if so, how do you handle
that?
Jennifer White (10:40):
So I haven't actually had that with a
retained search situation, so Ican go to the contingency in a
second. But when I'm working asa retained search, I feel like
they understand that my job isto get the candidate the right
candidate. So I apologized inthe sentence I said, I'm sorry
(11:02):
if I'm stepping on any toes. Ijust want to let you know I'm
going to have a conversationwith XYZ tonight at 730 You guys
are amazing. I will make youlook great when I'm talking to
him. Don't worry. Alleviated anysense of gosh, they just start
getting it, um, I just said tothem, Hey, don't worry. I'm
going to be your biggest fan,but I'm here. I want to make you
(11:22):
look good, so I'm going to goright to them and see what the
situation is. From thestandpoint of, yes, I've had my
hand slot a couple of times onnot many but like, you don't
mean to do it. Sometimes it's byaccident. You don't realize the
protocol. And when that happens,they can just say, Hey, this is
your one chance. We understandthat you didn't understand that
you shouldn't be contactingthem. But when that happens, you
(11:45):
know, it happens a lot.Honestly, I think that they're
kind of used to recruiters. Imean, look, we're sales people.
You have to have a certainassertiveness in your
personality to begin with. Youdon't want to do it all the
time. But if it's, if it'ssomething that you feel like is,
you know, gonna, gonna let it afire for this particular
candidate to come in. Then, youknow, you just gotta kind of ask
(12:05):
for forgiveness instead ofpermission, sometimes.
Stephanie Maas (12:08):
Absolutely. And then going back to something
else you said earlier about, youknow, identifying the kind of
companies that you want to workwith, you know, it's one thing
when you've been in a niche fora while, and you know
reputations of organizations.You know, reputations, but when
you're newer, how do youdetermine, you know, hey, what
are some key identifiers I'mgoing to look for when taking a
(12:30):
new search or looking for a newpartnership?
Jennifer White (12:33):
When you're starting out in the legal
industry, I think it's smartfirst of all, to have a
geographical area that you'reworking with because that that
will just kind of keep yourknowledge as you're making these
calls, connecting with eithermanaging partners, other
recruiters, other attorneys.They're going to know people
more. So you kind of want tojust dive into those
conversations, make those calls,ask about certain firms from
(12:57):
people that you see had workedthere and left. How did you
leave? Was it on good terms? Ifyou kind of get the sense that
people leave on good terms alot, and that it was more just
kind of an opportunistic I kindof hit my ceiling, then you'll
kind of get a sense to, hey, youknow what? That firm actually
isn't a bad firm. They're notbecause you'll, you'll hear the
bad firms better than, more thanthe the good firms, the good
(13:20):
firms, you know, it's almostlike, if there's nothing said,
then that's kind of a goodthat's a good talent pool to
kind of, you know, to recruitfor it. But I think also, most
of these firms should be doing agood job of selling themselves
to recruiters, because they relyon us. So what I'll do is, I'll
call the director of therecruiting and I'll say, because
the managing partners reallydon't have, I mean, they're not
(13:43):
really there to sell tocandidates necessarily. They're
there to sell to their clients,to get the book of business. So
from that standpoint, they dohave a pretty good pitch. But
from a culture standpoint, froma benefit standpoint, from a
path to partnership standpoint,most of the legal firms around
the United States especially,have the ability to give you
(14:03):
even a marketing pitch book.They'll give it to you, and
they'll say, This is what makesus different. These are the type
of clients. This is the path topartnership. And you'll end up
learning about these firms. Andthen you choose what you like,
you know like, personally, whenI heard about a firm that said,
hey, you know what we're we'reboutique, but we're kind of
(14:23):
California chic, where we comein, we're allowed to wear jeans
as long as we look professional.You know, we work hard, we play
hard. That's kind of mymentality. So it's easy for me
to understand the benefits ofthat. Now, if I were to go to a
firm that's like, listen, we'resuper buttoned up. We stay here
for 1720, years. I can sell it,sure, but it's easier to kind of
(14:46):
know what firm I would want tobe working for, and then that's
kind of how I decide, becauseyou just have that passion about
it, and you can tell when you'rekind of selling it to a
candidate. So it's kind of, Ithink, get your own taste and
your own person. Aspect of it,if you like, it'll be easier.
Stephanie Maas (15:02):
Very cool, super helpful. Have you ever kind of
said, Hey, I've done everythingI could try to leave it the best
way you can, and then after aperiod of time, come back to
work with them again?
Jennifer White (15:14):
Definitely. So there were a couple of firms
that I was just in their backpocket texting. I was their
number one kind of, you know,reach out to then I kind of got
busier with some other thingsgoing on. So it kind of
gradually just drifted away.There was no reason. There was
(15:37):
no hard feelings. But you just,kind of, you kind of went your
way. I just pick up the phoneand call them. We have them, and
say, Hey, long time. No Talk.Listen, I see this search. Tell
me about it. You just, kind ofjust keep it pragmatic, you
know. Don't be like, Hey, I'm sosorry. We weren't taught it's
business, you know. So you justgo back if you feel like you
find something, and you foundsomething on that they have out
(16:00):
on their searches, or if theysent an email about, hey, we
need help, you just kind of diveback in. I mean, you're going to
have different pools that you'regoing to hang out with
throughout your entire career,hopefully, if you have a long
career here. So that's justgoing to kind of happen I think.
Stephanie Maas (16:14):
Anything else we have not talked about that you
think might be helpful for thegood of our listeners?
Jennifer White (16:20):
I think one of the things that we have to
remember as recruiters isthere's enough to go around. I
think that, you know, people canget a little bit territorial
and, you know, they get a littlebit like, they'll just kind of
throw the resumes out there andnot really care about whether or
(16:42):
not it's the right fit. I thinkthat we all, just as recruiters,
have to remember that we're alltrying to do our best and to
lean into each other more. Ithink that that would be really
helpful, you know, give eachother pats in the back. So
that's one thing that I wouldlike to start seeing a little
bit more. I have been seeing itmore, but this type of legal
(17:02):
recruiting, especially isgetting extremely saturated. So
I think that if you know ifyou're working with if I work
with a candidate, and they saythat they're working with
another recruiter, I always sayto them, you know, I would
really appreciate if you letthem know that you are going to
pivot. Don't just go blank onbecause we don't get paid until
(17:22):
we place somebody. So I thinkthat that's kind of one of the
things that you know, what goesaround, comes around, is
something that I try to reallythink about. And I think that
if, if you are thinking aboutgetting into this, or if you
already are a recruiter andyou're successful, or if you're
having a hard time, definitelyreach out to me. I would love to
network. I would love to chat.I'm always here to kind of help
(17:43):
out my fellow recruiter.
Stephanie Maas (17:46):
That's awesome. Man, thank you so much for
joining us sharing some of yourwisdom. Really appreciate your
time and energy here.
Jennifer White (17:54):
Thank you so much. Steph, it's always so
great to chat with you.
Hello and welcome to The Talent Trade. I
am your host. Stephanie Maas,partner with ThinkingAhead
Executive Search, and today, Iam super jazzed to have one of
the best of the best in thebusiness with us today. Jenn
White joined our firm threeyears ago. She came out of the
(00:28):
gates swinging. She broke our 20plus year top first year record,
and has been a top producerevery year since then in the
legal recruiting space. Superhappy to have you with us and
Jenn, I'll let you tell us alittle bit more about you and
your niche, and then we'll diveinto our topic.
Jennifer White (00:45):
Thank you so much. Steph, yes, I joined three
years ago in the legal space. Ihave been in sales and marketing
for, I would say, my entirecareer, in one aspect or the
other. And I love recruiting forlaw firms and for attorneys.
It's a great group of people toget to know and to chat with.
(01:06):
Most attorneys are networkers atheart, because they have their
own kind of sense of book ofbusiness that they're trying to
build. So in ways, we kind ofline up in that in that sense.
So I really, really enjoyed it.We have a wonderful team, and my
coworkers on my team I just loveso I feel very blessed to be
here.
Stephanie Maas (01:24):
We're super, super thankful to have you. So
today, Jenn, my understanding isyou are going to lead us through
a little bit of a discussion asit relates to partnership versus
vendor, all that stuff in thelegal recruiting business.
Jennifer White (01:42):
So a lot of times, the way that things work
when you are in the legalrecruiting field is there's
different types of ways that youcan partner with law firms. The
law firms are considered theclient and the attorneys are
considered the candidate. And ifyou can kind of liken it a
little bit to real estate, wherethe clients are the sellers, and
then the candidates are thebuyers. So what you're trying to
(02:05):
do is get to know your clients,your firms, as much as possible,
and be able to have the respectthat they would be calling you.
So what I thought would be agood idea is to kind of go
through the steps of how to getto be at the desk in the C suite
with these firms. So there'sdifferent types of searches that
(02:25):
you have. You can start out witha contingent search, which
basically means they have aneed, and they're sending it out
to all the recruiters out thereand candidates alike. Sometimes
it will be posted on their ontheir firm websites. That's a
little bit like acting likeyou're a sports agent, so you
have the talent, and you're kindof shopping them around to each
(02:46):
of these firms. So that's that'sthe contingent basis. Everyone
has the same shot at the personthat you are working with, the
candidate. So the good thingabout that is that you have a
lot of shots on goal. You canhave this candidate go out to
different types of firms.However, there's no guarantee
that you're going to get paid,so sometimes what you do is
(03:06):
you'll try to have that firm, afirm in particular, be a client
that you want to have a retainedsearch with. And what that means
is that you're identifying afirm that you feel like has
great opportunities. Because Ithink that's one thing, is
identifying which firms you wantto work with is just as key as
(03:27):
them identifying whichrecruiters. Because if you have
a search that no one wants, andit's a it's a dog search, then
you're really kind of shittingyourself in the foot. Because
even though you may get money upfront, you are probably not
going to get the rest of thatmoney, because it's a really
difficult sign. So when youidentify the firm and you
realize that it's a great firmthat you want to work with,
(03:48):
that's number one. But you haveto make sure that the firm's
good. You're going to have asuccessful search. It's actually
something that people are goingto want to join. That's kind of
what I think it's important forpeople to realize you don't just
want to work with anyone. Andthen the approach of how you
want to work with these firmscan be either you identified
them and you've never workedwith them and never placed with
(04:08):
them, but you've always knownabout them, and you're going to
pitch that routine search rightoff the bat. Then there's the
way that you have worked withthem in the contingent side.
That's kind of how I like to doit, because you kind of want to
work and you kind of want toplace somebody at these firms.
You want to know the entireprocess from start to finish,
because when you're going toretain search, you're really
(04:28):
promising them that they willfind the talent they're paying
you, and it's only you searchingfor them. So knowing the ins and
out of that firm, I think, isreally important. So the
approach would be, in myopinion, work with them on a
contingent basis. Then if youwant to go in and then have the
retained basis, you kind ofunderstand some bumps up front,
and you're not kind of settingyourself up for disappointment.
(04:50):
But that being said, it'sdefinitely fine to go ahead and
pitch for the retained if it's afirm that you feel like you want
to work with and you feel likeit's a great shot. So I don't
want to sway anyone that way.But my approach, I like to kind
of go with the contingent andthen retained, and then once you
do have that ability to partnerwith a firm, it's really great
(05:12):
to make sure that you know whothe key players are. A lot of
times in these firms, especiallywith legal, they always use
recruiter, so there'll be an inhouse recruiter that you might
have the the initialconversations with, which is
great. They're usually reallygood at what they do. They're
going to be able to lead youdown the path and have your
(05:32):
pitch kick off. But what I wouldrecommend too, is having the
discussion with them that ifthings are getting a little
sticky, a little hairy, you'rebringing in some candidates that
you feel like they should behiring, and it's not going well.
Make sure you have the abilityto reach out to the managing
partners one on one, becausesometimes things just get lost
in a shuffle. Sometimes, youknow, playing operator, what you
(05:55):
think you're hearing, and whatyou think with and what they're
saying might not be exactlycoming across. So you just want
to make sure that you have aclear line to the decision
makers. Definitely talk to thepeople that you're supposed to
talk to. You don't want to goaround anyone's back, but make
sure that if things are notgoing as well as planned, that
you do have the ability to goright to the horse's mouth and
(06:18):
the decision maker. And then theother thing too that's important
to focus on when you arepartnering with a firm is
maintaining those objectives andmaintaining the satisfaction
level that that you werepromising them. If you feel like
there's something that'shappening that is not going well
either, whether or not thecandidate is you're not being
able to find the candidates.Because that's one thing too
(06:40):
that can be a little bit nervewracking. You can get these
pitches. You can be at the tablewith them. You can tell them,
hey, I'm going to be able tofind this candidate. Don't
worry. And you go out there andit's just the toughest search
that you could ever work on. Behonest and let them know you're
going to be showing your work.You're going to be showing your
efforts. You're going to behaving your bi weekly meetings
(07:01):
with them, telling Hey, I'vemade 100 calls this week. I've
had this reaction to thissearch. And I think the other
thing too is making sure thatyou feel honest enough to give
them that honest feedback.Sometimes, you know, a managing
partner may be really difficultto work with, and they have a
reputation that could besomething that you find out
(07:23):
after you already signed thedotted line and gotten your
retained deposit down. So youjust want to make sure that
you're always just tactfullyshowing them what it is that
they need to say. Because look,if they know the managing
partner, might be difficult.They never were told that. So
either way, good news, bad news,I think, is also what you want
(07:44):
to do in order to maintain thatrelationship with them. Think
the other thing too is, is thatsometimes things may not work
out as well as you had hoped. Soyou have to remember that there
might be a time for you to pivotaway from that relationship, in
a sense. So if that's the case,just make sure you're not
burning any bridges. Do yourbest that you can do. I think
(08:05):
the other thing too is helpingto have that communication of
how often you should becommunicating with them during
the search, if you are doingeverything that you could if
they wanted you to get them allthis information. And it didn't
go well, still, I think thething that you can always do is
just say, hey, you know what? Irespect you guys. I think that
I've tapped the market out.Maybe it's time for you guys to
(08:28):
go find another recruiter thatyou feel like might have a fresh
eye. So it's just kind ofimportant to make sure that you
also have that ability to kindof part ways and not have to
always just hang on to that oneparticular client, because once
you do sit at that table, you'regoing to be having a lot of time
and effort from your own desksearching for this particular
(08:49):
search. So you just want to makesure that you're still able to
keep some things, some irons inthe fire while you're busy with
that.
Stephanie Maas (08:55):
Super cool. I'm gonna go back and ask a couple
questions along the way that Ithink might be super helpful. I
know a lot of folks get pushedback from internal talent
acquisition folks about workingdirectly with the hiring
manager, and I would imagine,especially in your niche, with
attorneys billing by the hourwith some of the language, or
what are some of the ways thatyou're able to kind of break
(09:18):
through that internal stiff farmto really get the time and
attention of the decisionmakers.
Jennifer White (09:25):
I think that for one if you are exhausting the
limit to where you are with thatone particular person who you're
supposed to quote, unquote, beworking with, if you feel like
things are just not going wellthat I have in in the past, just
reached out directly to thatmanaging partner. Don't worry
(09:47):
about it. Email them say, Hey, Ithink that there's been a couple
of miscommunications. Or hey,this candidate seems to be add
everything that you have lookedfor. I'm not sure why things
aren't progressing. The way thatthey should. I would love just
to bend your ear five minutes atthe most. Can you let me know
if, after hours I could, I couldhave a conversation with you.
(10:10):
That's usually when they'll be alittle bit more receptive. I
mean, what I did have thisconversation, it was at 730 at
night. I didn't care. Theydidn't care. But it was kind of
meeting them where they neededto be. I think that that's the
other thing too, is give themthe opportunity to kind of be
outside of work hours to talk.
Stephanie Maas (10:30):
And then when you do that, do you ever get
that proverbial slap on thewrist saying, Hey, I told you
not to communicate with them.And if so, how do you handle
that?
Jennifer White (10:40):
So I haven't actually had that with a
retained search situation, so Ican go to the contingency in a
second. But when I'm working asa retained search, I feel like
they understand that my job isto get the candidate the right
candidate. So I apologized inthe sentence I said, I'm sorry
(11:02):
if I'm stepping on any toes. Ijust want to let you know I'm
going to have a conversationwith XYZ tonight at 730 You guys
are amazing. I will make youlook great when I'm talking to
him. Don't worry. Alleviated anysense of gosh, they just start
getting it, um, I just said tothem, Hey, don't worry. I'm
going to be your biggest fan,but I'm here. I want to make you
(11:22):
look good, so I'm going to goright to them and see what the
situation is. From thestandpoint of, yes, I've had my
hand slot a couple of times onnot many but like, you don't
mean to do it. Sometimes it's byaccident. You don't realize the
protocol. And when that happens,they can just say, Hey, this is
your one chance. We understandthat you didn't understand that
you shouldn't be contactingthem. But when that happens, you
(11:45):
know, it happens a lot.Honestly, I think that they're
kind of used to recruiters. Imean, look, we're sales people.
You have to have a certainassertiveness in your
personality to begin with. Youdon't want to do it all the
time. But if it's, if it'ssomething that you feel like is,
you know, gonna, gonna let it afire for this particular
candidate to come in. Then, youknow, you just gotta kind of ask
(12:05):
for forgiveness instead ofpermission, sometimes.
Stephanie Maas (12:08):
Absolutely. And then going back to something
else you said earlier about, youknow, identifying the kind of
companies that you want to workwith, you know, it's one thing
when you've been in a niche fora while, and you know
reputations of organizations.You know, reputations, but when
you're newer, how do youdetermine, you know, hey, what
are some key identifiers I'mgoing to look for when taking a
(12:30):
new search or looking for a newpartnership?
Jennifer White (12:33):
When you're starting out in the legal
industry, I think it's smartfirst of all, to have a
geographical area that you'reworking with because that that
will just kind of keep yourknowledge as you're making these
calls, connecting with eithermanaging partners, other
recruiters, other attorneys.They're going to know people
more. So you kind of want tojust dive into those
conversations, make those calls,ask about certain firms from
(12:57):
people that you see had workedthere and left. How did you
leave? Was it on good terms? Ifyou kind of get the sense that
people leave on good terms alot, and that it was more just
kind of an opportunistic I kindof hit my ceiling, then you'll
kind of get a sense to, hey, youknow what? That firm actually
isn't a bad firm. They're notbecause you'll, you'll hear the
bad firms better than, more thanthe the good firms, the good
(13:20):
firms, you know, it's almostlike, if there's nothing said,
then that's kind of a goodthat's a good talent pool to
kind of, you know, to recruitfor it. But I think also, most
of these firms should be doing agood job of selling themselves
to recruiters, because they relyon us. So what I'll do is, I'll
call the director of therecruiting and I'll say, because
the managing partners reallydon't have, I mean, they're not
(13:43):
really there to sell tocandidates necessarily. They're
there to sell to their clients,to get the book of business. So
from that standpoint, they dohave a pretty good pitch. But
from a culture standpoint, froma benefit standpoint, from a
path to partnership standpoint,most of the legal firms around
the United States especially,have the ability to give you
(14:03):
even a marketing pitch book.They'll give it to you, and
they'll say, This is what makesus different. These are the type
of clients. This is the path topartnership. And you'll end up
learning about these firms. Andthen you choose what you like,
you know like, personally, whenI heard about a firm that said,
hey, you know what we're we'reboutique, but we're kind of
(14:23):
California chic, where we comein, we're allowed to wear jeans
as long as we look professional.You know, we work hard, we play
hard. That's kind of mymentality. So it's easy for me
to understand the benefits ofthat. Now, if I were to go to a
firm that's like, listen, we'resuper buttoned up. We stay here
for 1720, years. I can sell it,sure, but it's easier to kind of
(14:46):
know what firm I would want tobe working for, and then that's
kind of how I decide, becauseyou just have that passion about
it, and you can tell when you'rekind of selling it to a
candidate. So it's kind of, Ithink, get your own taste and
your own person. Aspect of it,if you like, it'll be easier.
Stephanie Maas (15:02):
Very cool, super helpful. Have you ever kind of
said, Hey, I've done everythingI could try to leave it the best
way you can, and then after aperiod of time, come back to
work with them again?
Jennifer White (15:14):
Definitely. So there were a couple of firms
that I was just in their backpocket texting. I was their
number one kind of, you know,reach out to then I kind of got
busier with some other thingsgoing on. So it kind of
gradually just drifted away.There was no reason. There was
(15:37):
no hard feelings. But you just,kind of, you kind of went your
way. I just pick up the phoneand call them. We have them, and
say, Hey, long time. No Talk.Listen, I see this search. Tell
me about it. You just, kind ofjust keep it pragmatic, you
know. Don't be like, Hey, I'm sosorry. We weren't taught it's
business, you know. So you justgo back if you feel like you
find something, and you foundsomething on that they have out
(16:00):
on their searches, or if theysent an email about, hey, we
need help, you just kind of diveback in. I mean, you're going to
have different pools that you'regoing to hang out with
throughout your entire career,hopefully, if you have a long
career here. So that's justgoing to kind of happen I think.
Stephanie Maas (16:14):
Anything else we have not talked about that you
think might be helpful for thegood of our listeners?
Jennifer White (16:20):
I think one of the things that we have to
remember as recruiters isthere's enough to go around. I
think that, you know, people canget a little bit territorial
and, you know, they get a littlebit like, they'll just kind of
throw the resumes out there andnot really care about whether or
(16:42):
not it's the right fit. I thinkthat we all, just as recruiters,
have to remember that we're alltrying to do our best and to
lean into each other more. Ithink that that would be really
helpful, you know, give eachother pats in the back. So
that's one thing that I wouldlike to start seeing a little
bit more. I have been seeing itmore, but this type of legal
(17:02):
recruiting, especially isgetting extremely saturated. So
I think that if you know ifyou're working with if I work
with a candidate, and they saythat they're working with
another recruiter, I always sayto them, you know, I would
really appreciate if you letthem know that you are going to
pivot. Don't just go blank onbecause we don't get paid until
(17:22):
we place somebody. So I thinkthat that's kind of one of the
things that you know, what goesaround, comes around, is
something that I try to reallythink about. And I think that
if, if you are thinking aboutgetting into this, or if you
already are a recruiter andyou're successful, or if you're
having a hard time, definitelyreach out to me. I would love to
network. I would love to chat.I'm always here to kind of help
(17:43):
out my fellow recruiter.
Stephanie Maas (17:46):
That's awesome. Man, thank you so much for
joining us sharing some of yourwisdom. Really appreciate your
time and energy here.
Jennifer White (17:54):
Thank you so much. Steph, it's always so
great to chat with you.
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