March 7, 2024 • 23 mins
Stephanie welcomes special guest Jonathan McIntosh, Partner and Recruiter with ThinkingAhead, to discuss the "recipe" for conduct on a call, the beauty and the terror of a cold call, getting off "the ladder", and why the words should never outshine the feeling.
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Episode Transcript
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Stephanie Maas (00:00):
Hi, and welcome to The Talent Trade. I'm
(00:03):
Stephanie Maas, partner withThinkingAhead executive search.
Today I am super excited tobring to the talent trade a
guest. Today's guest has one ofprobably, I think one of the
most non traditional backgroundsbefore joining the world of
recruiting, which I will let himshare with us. And then also
(00:26):
from a topic perspective, he isgoing to share with us a little
bit about the value of beingyourself as soon as possible
when you start out in executivesearch. So before I bring him on
a couple of fun little nuggetsthat you should know, Jonathan
has been with our firm sevenyears, one of my favorite
stories about Jonathan, becausewe went through training, and
(00:47):
after gosh, probably about sixmonths, he came to me and said,
hey, you know, I really promiseI was paying attention. I was in
tune to your training. But Ijust need some clarity about the
timing behind this marketingplan that we had put together.
Because Jonathan, he was soincredibly teachable, he was
executing our drip marketingplan incredibly well, with one
(01:08):
exception, the exception that hemissed was the timing. So this
is a seven step drip marketingplan that when executed
accordingly, should happen overabout a four month period with
Jonathan and his eagerness toget things rolling. He was doing
it over the course of aboutseven days. So he'd gotten a
little feedback from the marketthat it was a smidge much. So he
(01:31):
came back and said, I don'tthink this was a response we're
going for anyway, I reallyappreciate his humility in
approaching and asking what hewas doing wrong. But I also
really the enthusiasm to whichhe wanted to get started and do
things the right way speaks alot to his character while at
thinking ahead. So withoutfurther ado, I'd like to welcome
(01:52):
Jonathan McIntosh. Welcome toThe Talent Trade.
Jonathan McIntosh (01:55):
Thank you, Stephanie. Great to be here.
Stephanie Maas (01:56):
So I alluded to this interesting background that
you had, I would love to hearjust a little bit of your story
how you found your way tothinking ahead.
Jonathan McIntosh (02:06):
I actually responded to I remember now and
indeed posting I had been inprofessional ministry for 20
years. That's all I knew. Ididn't know the world of sales
at all. I didn't even know therewas such a thing as a
headhunter. I needed to make amidlife career change. And I'm,
I'm living proof that you can dothat even at 3035 4045 5055. And
(02:30):
a friend said, Hey, have youever considered becoming a
headhunter? And I didn't evenknow what that was. And I said,
people get paid to help makeconnections professionally for
people. She said, Yes, I thinkyou'd be good at it, or
responded to an ad in indeed,for a nonprofit headhunter. And
because I knew the world looselyof nonprofits having worked in
ministry for 20 years, I feltlike it'd be a good fit. And
thankfully, thinking ahead,belts think it would be a good
(02:52):
fit to so I'm very grateful tohave, as I say, washed up on the
kind shores of thinking aheadexecutive search.
Stephanie Maas (02:59):
Well tell us a little bit about the niche that
you serve now.
Jonathan McIntosh (03:02):
So we have a boutique team under 10
recruiters at any point in time,that works solely with nonprofit
organizations across thecountry, Health and Human
Services, environmentalconservation, the performing
arts culture museums, we do itall primarily director level and
above primarily C suite roles.Now I'm going to be speaking to
areas of success I see acrossdifferent niches and thinking
(03:26):
ahead, but really what I knowmost are most well as the
nonprofit industry.
Stephanie Maas (03:31):
Okay, so Jonathan is a partner with
thinking ahead consistently, oneof our top performers, what has
been your best year to datebillings wise?
Jonathan McIntosh (03:40):
2022; somewhere between that and cash
in half a million somewhere nearthere.
Stephanie Maas (03:47):
So for many of our listeners, the idea of being
a consistent 350 to 550, a norevenue producer would create
quite an incredible career andlifestyle. So we've got one live
here. So Jonathan, again, theidea here is we could talk about
a lot of the different thingsthat have made you successful,
but there's one in particularyou brought to the table for our
(04:08):
time today. And this was theidea of being yourself as
quickly as possible. So put somelegs under that table for us.
Jonathan McIntosh (04:17):
Yeah, thank you, Stephanie. Our trainings
and thinking ahead, I think areexcellent. And any new recruiter
is going to come on to any newteam. And they're going to have
a book of scripts that we'realways refining, and
specializing for each practiceand niche, but I like to remind
recruiters early on that they'renot robotic script machines,
(04:38):
that they're a human being on aphone or a zoom call with
another human being. And don'tforget to be a human. And when I
think about and I don't know ifyou've seen this in your niche,
but when I think about thenonprofit team, there's a lot of
churn and a lot of turnoverthrough new hires, and you
always want everyone to make itbut not everyone makes it
sometimes that's a that's a workeffort issue. Sometimes that's a
(05:00):
phone aversion issue. But I'veseen often, people with the
right work habits, they'remaking the number of dials every
day that they should, butsomehow they're not able to put
it together. And I think theystill, when it comes to making
connections with people, whetherthat's a bizdev, or marketing
(05:21):
approach, or if that's acandidate recruiting approach,
they still are very bound bytheir scripts and don't know how
to find clothes that fit, theydon't know how to find language
that feels like them. They don'tknow how to stop and recognize,
hey, I'm actually talking toanother human, I'm actually
listening to another human andthey're giving me wonderful
(05:43):
things about their life that Ishould be curious about. And I'm
just moving on to the nextquestion here on my outline. So
that's kind of the overall thingI if I can emphasize anything to
new recruiters that thinking hador and I don't know how helpful
this will be across theindustry, it's a stop and be a
human being on the phone.
Stephanie Maas (06:00):
Any backdrop that led you to this kind of
realization? Or can you rememberwhen this became your aha
moment?
Jonathan McIntosh (06:07):
I think it started initially from I have
ADD, and a lot of the highperformers and thinking ahead,
are very process driven. You areStephanie, a lot of members of
my own team that I respect thehell out of. For me, though, I
needed to find my own voice,first and foremost, just so I
wasn't bored all the time. Like,I'm literally leaving the same
(06:28):
voicemail 30 times in one day,if that's my life, I want to
kill myself. But if I can findmy own way, if I can find my own
voice, if I can make it unique,then it becomes fun, and it
becomes a game. So that was kindof one Aha. Number two was after
I'd had some success and hearingfrom people like, Hey, this is
(06:48):
not like the standard recruitingcall that I get, or hey, that
wasn't like the standard coldcall that I get. This felt real
different, unique. Three, thethird kind of aha, I was
thinking about patterninterrupt, and we can talk about
Pattern Interrupt in a minute.And then for it was watching
people on my team, with greatwork habits, not put it together
(07:11):
and not make it work. And we goon, they were doing all the
right things that leadership wastelling them to do. They went
through the training, they hadthe scripts, why weren't they
able to make it work in ourbusiness. So it was those kind
of four pieces that cametogether.
Stephanie Maas (07:23):
So for you, and again, you came from a
background where you know,public speaking, talking to
folks, etc, that that camepretty natural. So when you
joined thinking ahead, you talkabout hey, I had to find my own
voice. And yet you still talkabout using scripts. So how did
you mesh those worlds together?I think that's something that
for a lot of our listeners, thatis the challenge is, hey, I know
(07:45):
I need to be scripted. But Ialso need to use my own
language. I need to beprofessional, but I want people
to see me as a human. Talk to meabout your journey with that.
Jonathan McIntosh (07:54):
That is such a delicate balance. And that's
one reason that this jobrequires such high emotional
intelligence, EQ. And I thinkabout the the high performers in
any team, I think an ad they'reoff the charts when it comes to
emotional intelligence, becauseyou're reading the person on the
other end of the phone all thetime, and you're making
adjustments. As I think aboutscripts, to me a script is a
(08:15):
recipe. And if you've cooked orif you've made cocktails, you
need to stick to the recipe asclosely as possible, until you
start to learn the basics. Untilyou you really become
proficient. For example, I had afriend once who said, Hey, I'm
gonna, I'm going to start tomake cocktails, I'm gonna buy
some stuff and start to throwsome stuff together. But he
(08:37):
didn't know any of the classicrecipes. And why citrus works
with a bitter and you need asweetening agent. And then you
need a base spirit. He didn'tknow any of these classic
combinations that bartenders for150 years had been proving out.
And so he was trying to breakrules before he even knew the
rules and why the rules worked.So yes, absolutely, to the new
(09:01):
recruiter go by the scripts,that the people who have been
successful in this business for20 years are using, learn why
they work, learn the basics, andthat's the same thing with any
cooking recipe. But then as youstart to become proficient in
the kitchen, you know why Saul,fat, eat and acid work together?
(09:23):
And then you know how to adjustthose dials. You can start to
break the rules only after youlearn why the rules work.
Stephanie Maas (09:30):
Super insightful. I have never heard
it put that way. I love thatscripture recipes. That's a
great example. Talk to us alittle bit about this idea of
high emotional intelligence. Isit something that you have and
develop? Can you be taught it?
Jonathan McIntosh (09:44):
I think it's both. I think at the end of the
day, it is a trait that noteverybody has. I think everybody
can get it better. But we allhave an indifferent amounts.
There are these amazinglycharismatic people rule that you
just meet. And when you run intothem like I want you in my life,
(10:06):
your smile lights up whateverroom that you're in, you make
everyone feel like they are themost important person in the
world. But you don't have tohave that off the charts. This
off the charts charisma in orderto make it work in search. There
are plenty of people that arejust pay, I'm a good listener, I
bring a lot of empathy to thetable. I'm kind. And then I know
(10:27):
my work. I work my routine. Iwork my my daily calls. But
yeah, I think you can I think toanswer your question more
bluntly, I think you can we allcan get better at emotional
intelligence. I think that theentry point to that is
listening. I think when I'mdistracted, when I'm my mind is
somewhere else. When I haveanother app pulled up. And I'm
not fully invested in the call,I miss opportunities to
(10:50):
interject to ask a clarifyingquestion to double click on
something to go tell me moreabout that.
Stephanie Maas (10:56):
And again, I like your phraseology here, you
said you miss opportunities.
Jonathan McIntosh (11:00):
I think the key especially on the recruiting
side, when we're talking aboutcandidate recruiting calls, the
key to being yourself, andsometimes you may need to go off
script is when the person you'retalking to on the other end of
the line, this i This certainlyworks for marketing bizdev, as
well gives you this wonderful,beautiful thing. They've
entrusted you with something,they're opening up. They're
(11:21):
divulging something either aboutthemselves or about their
company. And it's in a requires,it's asking of you a certain
response to go, Wait a second,that's really curious. Wait a
second, what did you mean bythat? Wait a second, can we
circle back do you mind, youjust said something very, very
interesting to me. And whenwe're in this call with a person
(11:43):
is this almost sacred space, andyou're navigating these very
interesting waters, where you'retalking to them about some of
the most personal items in theirlives, their interests, their
passions, what they make on ayearly basis, what they think
they should make, why they areundervalued in the market.
Sometimes you're talking aboutracial dynamics, sometimes
(12:06):
you're talking about officeculture dynamics, sometimes
you're you're working throughthe most difficult and painful
things of their lives right nowthis toxic thing that I had to
deal with at work, and should Ileave? Should I be looking for
something else, but I've giventhis company or this
organization my entire life? Andnow I've got a boss that doesn't
see my value? And what should Ido in that situation? Jonathan,
(12:26):
it's not like what we do issuper difficult. I'm not trying
to overinflate the recruitersrole. But human beings are
important, and their stories areimportant. And do we treat them
as such?
Stephanie Maas (12:37):
Okay, so with that talk to me about this idea
behind pattern interrupt.
Jonathan McIntosh (12:42):
The basics of pattern interrupt is, first of
all, let's be honest, we are atleast the way we set up our
practice that thinking and wecold call people. And I think I
believe in the cold call, Ibelieve one. My opinion is no
one loves making cold calls, andno one loves receiving a cold
call. But I will tell you, someof my best clients, most of my
best clients, and some reallyclose friendships have come from
(13:06):
a cold call, I believe inpushing through the fear. And
there can be beauty on the otherside. But as soon as someone
picks up the phone, and they didnot let it roll to voicemail,
whether it's a bizdev orrecruiting call, the very first
thing they're thinking when theyhear Jonathan McIntosh thinking
I had executive searches, howthe hell can I get off this
(13:27):
call? As soon as possible? Theonly thing they're thinking is,
gosh, this was not the number Ithought it was right. Oh, I was
expecting call from a donorcolleague, friend, board member
boss. I was not expecting a coldcall today. And so you got to
realize they're like a scaredhorse because they're just like,
(13:48):
they're in their amygdala atthat point in time. And all
they're thinking is, how do Whyhang up and not seem like an a
hole right now? And you've gotto come in and be like, sheesh,
it's okay. It's gonna bealright, we're gonna get through
this together. Let me just calmyou down for one second. I'm not
a salesperson. I'm not here totry to sell you something. I'm
(14:11):
not really right now trying toeven recruit you for anything.
You can tell me to go pound sandanytime you want. Can I just
tell you why I'm reaching outtoday. And generally people are
like, okay, I can listen, yousound like a human being. You
sound like you know that this ispotentially awkward for me to
(14:31):
calm people down bringing themout of their amygdala so they
can pause long enough toactually hear what you're
saying. Because all they want todo is go nope, not for me. Nope,
not at this time. Note. We don'thire recruiters. No, I'm not
looking right. And so patterninterrupt is any way that you
can kind of stop that. Hey, I'ma recruiter. No thanks. Click.
(14:51):
That's the pattern. How do youinterrupt?
Stephanie Maas (14:53):
Okay, so show us how you do it. What do you say?
Jonathan McIntosh (14:56):
I had someone that we're potentially
recruiting to our team Anonprofit shout me the other
day. And I was expecting toleave a voicemail because I just
wanted to show like, hey, it'seasy. You just leave these
voicemails let me show you. Andthe person picked up the phone.
And it was a surprise to me. Iwas not call I was planning on
making that day, I was making itjust to literally show someone
in an interview setting how wedo it. And I found myself saying
(15:19):
Jonathan McIntosh thinking I hadexecutive search, I could hear
you know, you could sense thesethings like you can feel someone
tensing up over the phone, and Isaid, Look, I'm not trying to
sell you anything. In fact, I'mgoing to tell you, I'm calling
if that's okay. And you can tellme afterwards to go pound sand
if you like, is that okay? Andshe laughed. He said, Yeah, I
said, I'm gonna I'm gonnaHeadhunter This is a cold. So
(15:40):
I'll say that, like, I'm aheadhunter. This is a cold call,
no one likes to get these. Buthere we are. But my point is,
don't take my phraseology,experiment with what sounds good
coming out of your mouth. Onceagain, be yourself on the phone,
I'm not going to apologize formaking a cold call. In fact,
sometimes I will say, I'm sorry,I'm just now reaching out to
(16:02):
you, man, we've been in the samecircles for five years. And I've
never called you, I'm sorry, Idon't apologize for it's taken
me this long to call you. Buthowever, in your voicemail, feel
free to be just a little bitweird. I'm not saying be
completely off the charts goofy,and unprofessional. But at the
same time you're talking to ahuman being, maybe they're at
(16:24):
home, wearing somethingprofessional of top in their
underwear, and they're about tojump to a zoom call, you can
acknowledge just kind of thecraziness that just is all of
this, like everyone is justplaying pretend and anything
they do. And just kind of takethe mask off for a second. And
let some of your your humanenesscome through. I think that's
(16:46):
attractive. I think that's whatpeople respond to.
Stephanie Maas (16:51):
What do you think, causes people hesitation
from being themselves getting tothat point where they'll risk
being goofy or a little weird?Or going off script a smidge?
What's the mental hurdle therefor folks?
Jonathan McIntosh (17:08):
That's a fantastic question. I think
there's a handful of mentalhurdles, at least for me, one,
especially when I'm callingsomeone high up like a CEO of an
organization, big nonprofit thatI really respect, I want to
appear buttoned up professional,I want them to respect me, a lot
of that is on the ladder in myhead. And the ladder is a phrase
I got from some therapists onetime, it's when you are in
(17:30):
constant comparison, and rankingyourself and where you think you
stand either above or belowothers based on wealth, social
status. And so I can put myselfmentally on the ladder below the
CEOs. And so I've become eithertotally obsequious meaning like,
whatever you want to become aYes, man, or they become almost
(17:53):
too cold, you do have to readpeople, that high EQ thing is
you've got to be a bit of asocial chameleon. So when I'm
calling into the New Yorkmarket, I know that most of
those people that I'm reachingout to talk fast, don't have
time for BS, and the movingreally quickly. And my syrupy
southern charm can be lost onthem. So I can boom, get right
(18:17):
down to business when necessary.And you're trying to like, hey,
how much tolerance can't eventell this person has written
for? So yeah, we want to lookgood. We want to look
professional, we want to lookbuttoned up. Also, when you're
New Earth is you want to do it,right. I mean, I go through most
of my life, as far as work,parenting and marriage, how am I
doing it right? Am I failing? Ornot? How do I even know. And so
(18:39):
the scripts and the familiarityfeels good, because it provides
us with a sense, like, Hey, Imade my calls, and I did it on
script. And I can check the boxat the end of the day, and
that's fine. But I think if youwant to grow your billings, and
you really want to make amemorable impression in the
markets, it's not did I make mycalls ended up follow the
script, it's to make ameaningful connection today.
Stephanie Maas (19:00):
Correct me if I'm wrong, a lot of what I'm
hearing is, hey, in thebeginning, get your recipe and
thinking ahead, we give it toyou, hey, this is what it's
gonna take from a workperspective to be successful.
Put the work in, and then as youdo the work and start applying
these things, again, the bestchefs in the world, they all
have something unique. They makethe same dish. What makes their
(19:21):
dish outstanding, isn't that ittasted exactly like everybody
else's. It's that they put theirtwist on it. If I hear you,
right, that's where you go fromconnection to meaningful
connection.
Jonathan McIntosh (19:34):
Yes, that's it, Stephanie. But that does
take time. You can be patientwith yourself and it takes lots
of repetition. To go back to ourour volume piece. You know,
you've heard the story manytimes about the photography
students, one group of studentshad to go out and by the end of
the semester, produced 500photographs, the others only had
(19:55):
to produce one really highquality photograph, but the
students who worried aboutvolume You more than quality, by
the last set of photographs aremaking, their quality was
higher, your quality only getsbetter as you practice as you
get into it. That's why what wesay around here is, and I remind
myself of this because I makebad bizdev and marketing calls
(20:17):
all the time. They're awkward,they can't, I try to not make
them awkward intentionally. ButI mean, I remember the first
marketing call I made to someonein the nonprofit space in a, in
a performing arts organizationthat I wanted to work with. I
was nervously reading back myscript and and I said, and give
me a call and I read, I read thenumber aloud. And I was like,
(20:40):
Oh, I'm sorry, that's yournumber that I just couldn't
practice you. I am aprofessional, I promise. I will
tell you later, I ended upplacing that person at another
organization. And I've workedwith them since so it wasn't the
end of the world. My point is agood marketing call is one that
is made good marketing call isone that's made, it can be
(21:02):
perfect. And over time, withvolume, you get better and you
learn to become yourself.
Stephanie Maas (21:08):
Any thing else from your perspective, tips,
tricks of the trade, etc. thathelp you kind of push past the
fear of not soundingprofessional. The concern of
again, I love the latterreference, anything else that
you would recommend to ourlisteners just to help bridge
that gap from, you know, hey, weknow you have these concerns,
but just get there anyway orcounsel on developing their
(21:31):
emotional intelligence?
Jonathan McIntosh (21:33):
Well, once again, lots of fantastic
recruiters that really do followscripts really closely. And a
lot of them bill a lot more thanme. And they're, they're
wonderful. I would ask them,when's the last time you you
freshened up your scripts,because for me, it's like, hey,
or do the words coming out of mymouth for me, they got to feel
authentic. One of the bestthings I heard about sales early
on is that it's thistransference of energy. That's
(21:56):
what's happening. It's more thanthe words being said, it's the
feeling and the emotionalfreight and weight of that the
energy that's coming through.That's why we are phone people
more than than email people.Because you can have those,
those that delicate interchangesof energy on the phone, so much
better than you can be email,it's got to feel authentic. In
(22:17):
order for me to feel like I'mactually doing something of
good. And to leaving voicemailsor making calls that matter.
It's got to feel authentic. Sowhen's the last time you freshen
up your scripts? You know, onething right now that we're doing
our team, basically, we setdream target lists for
marketing, our fantasticassistant put together
basically, a vision board foreach of us with these target
(22:40):
organizations. And I've beenleaving voicemails telling
people at those organizationslike, Hey, I just want you to
know, I may not be on your dreamlist to work with, but you're on
my dream list to work with. And,you know, that may not mean
anything to you or not. But I'mgonna keep keep calling me
because I really do want us towork together at some point in
time
Stephanie Maas (22:58):
That is awesome. This has been incredibly
insightful and helpful. And Ithink whether you're just
starting out or if you've beenin it for a while, again,
whether your next level is justlearning the practice or
learning to get to the nextlevel. I think this is some key
information. So thank you somuch for your willingness to
(23:19):
share and bring us along on thisidea of finding your way to
being yourself and makingmeaningful connections.
Jonathan McIntosh (23:26):
Yeah, thank you, Stephanie. What an honor. I
really am grateful to be here.
Hi, and welcome to The Talent Trade. I'm
(00:03):
Stephanie Maas, partner withThinkingAhead executive search.
Today I am super excited tobring to the talent trade a
guest. Today's guest has one ofprobably, I think one of the
most non traditional backgroundsbefore joining the world of
recruiting, which I will let himshare with us. And then also
(00:26):
from a topic perspective, he isgoing to share with us a little
bit about the value of beingyourself as soon as possible
when you start out in executivesearch. So before I bring him on
a couple of fun little nuggetsthat you should know, Jonathan
has been with our firm sevenyears, one of my favorite
stories about Jonathan, becausewe went through training, and
(00:47):
after gosh, probably about sixmonths, he came to me and said,
hey, you know, I really promiseI was paying attention. I was in
tune to your training. But Ijust need some clarity about the
timing behind this marketingplan that we had put together.
Because Jonathan, he was soincredibly teachable, he was
executing our drip marketingplan incredibly well, with one
(01:08):
exception, the exception that hemissed was the timing. So this
is a seven step drip marketingplan that when executed
accordingly, should happen overabout a four month period with
Jonathan and his eagerness toget things rolling. He was doing
it over the course of aboutseven days. So he'd gotten a
little feedback from the marketthat it was a smidge much. So he
(01:31):
came back and said, I don'tthink this was a response we're
going for anyway, I reallyappreciate his humility in
approaching and asking what hewas doing wrong. But I also
really the enthusiasm to whichhe wanted to get started and do
things the right way speaks alot to his character while at
thinking ahead. So withoutfurther ado, I'd like to welcome
(01:52):
Jonathan McIntosh. Welcome toThe Talent Trade.
Jonathan McIntosh (01:55):
Thank you, Stephanie. Great to be here.
Stephanie Maas (01:56):
So I alluded to this interesting background that
you had, I would love to hearjust a little bit of your story
how you found your way tothinking ahead.
Jonathan McIntosh (02:06):
I actually responded to I remember now and
indeed posting I had been inprofessional ministry for 20
years. That's all I knew. Ididn't know the world of sales
at all. I didn't even know therewas such a thing as a
headhunter. I needed to make amidlife career change. And I'm,
I'm living proof that you can dothat even at 3035 4045 5055. And
(02:30):
a friend said, Hey, have youever considered becoming a
headhunter? And I didn't evenknow what that was. And I said,
people get paid to help makeconnections professionally for
people. She said, Yes, I thinkyou'd be good at it, or
responded to an ad in indeed,for a nonprofit headhunter. And
because I knew the world looselyof nonprofits having worked in
ministry for 20 years, I feltlike it'd be a good fit. And
thankfully, thinking ahead,belts think it would be a good
(02:52):
fit to so I'm very grateful tohave, as I say, washed up on the
kind shores of thinking aheadexecutive search.
Stephanie Maas (02:59):
Well tell us a little bit about the niche that
you serve now.
Jonathan McIntosh (03:02):
So we have a boutique team under 10
recruiters at any point in time,that works solely with nonprofit
organizations across thecountry, Health and Human
Services, environmentalconservation, the performing
arts culture museums, we do itall primarily director level and
above primarily C suite roles.Now I'm going to be speaking to
areas of success I see acrossdifferent niches and thinking
(03:26):
ahead, but really what I knowmost are most well as the
nonprofit industry.
Stephanie Maas (03:31):
Okay, so Jonathan is a partner with
thinking ahead consistently, oneof our top performers, what has
been your best year to datebillings wise?
Jonathan McIntosh (03:40):
2022; somewhere between that and cash
in half a million somewhere nearthere.
Stephanie Maas (03:47):
So for many of our listeners, the idea of being
a consistent 350 to 550, a norevenue producer would create
quite an incredible career andlifestyle. So we've got one live
here. So Jonathan, again, theidea here is we could talk about
a lot of the different thingsthat have made you successful,
but there's one in particularyou brought to the table for our
(04:08):
time today. And this was theidea of being yourself as
quickly as possible. So put somelegs under that table for us.
Jonathan McIntosh (04:17):
Yeah, thank you, Stephanie. Our trainings
and thinking ahead, I think areexcellent. And any new recruiter
is going to come on to any newteam. And they're going to have
a book of scripts that we'realways refining, and
specializing for each practiceand niche, but I like to remind
recruiters early on that they'renot robotic script machines,
(04:38):
that they're a human being on aphone or a zoom call with
another human being. And don'tforget to be a human. And when I
think about and I don't know ifyou've seen this in your niche,
but when I think about thenonprofit team, there's a lot of
churn and a lot of turnoverthrough new hires, and you
always want everyone to make itbut not everyone makes it
sometimes that's a that's a workeffort issue. Sometimes that's a
(05:00):
phone aversion issue. But I'veseen often, people with the
right work habits, they'remaking the number of dials every
day that they should, butsomehow they're not able to put
it together. And I think theystill, when it comes to making
connections with people, whetherthat's a bizdev, or marketing
(05:21):
approach, or if that's acandidate recruiting approach,
they still are very bound bytheir scripts and don't know how
to find clothes that fit, theydon't know how to find language
that feels like them. They don'tknow how to stop and recognize,
hey, I'm actually talking toanother human, I'm actually
listening to another human andthey're giving me wonderful
(05:43):
things about their life that Ishould be curious about. And I'm
just moving on to the nextquestion here on my outline. So
that's kind of the overall thingI if I can emphasize anything to
new recruiters that thinking hador and I don't know how helpful
this will be across theindustry, it's a stop and be a
human being on the phone.
Stephanie Maas (06:00):
Any backdrop that led you to this kind of
realization? Or can you rememberwhen this became your aha
moment?
Jonathan McIntosh (06:07):
I think it started initially from I have
ADD, and a lot of the highperformers and thinking ahead,
are very process driven. You areStephanie, a lot of members of
my own team that I respect thehell out of. For me, though, I
needed to find my own voice,first and foremost, just so I
wasn't bored all the time. Like,I'm literally leaving the same
(06:28):
voicemail 30 times in one day,if that's my life, I want to
kill myself. But if I can findmy own way, if I can find my own
voice, if I can make it unique,then it becomes fun, and it
becomes a game. So that was kindof one Aha. Number two was after
I'd had some success and hearingfrom people like, Hey, this is
(06:48):
not like the standard recruitingcall that I get, or hey, that
wasn't like the standard coldcall that I get. This felt real
different, unique. Three, thethird kind of aha, I was
thinking about patterninterrupt, and we can talk about
Pattern Interrupt in a minute.And then for it was watching
people on my team, with greatwork habits, not put it together
(07:11):
and not make it work. And we goon, they were doing all the
right things that leadership wastelling them to do. They went
through the training, they hadthe scripts, why weren't they
able to make it work in ourbusiness. So it was those kind
of four pieces that cametogether.
Stephanie Maas (07:23):
So for you, and again, you came from a
background where you know,public speaking, talking to
folks, etc, that that camepretty natural. So when you
joined thinking ahead, you talkabout hey, I had to find my own
voice. And yet you still talkabout using scripts. So how did
you mesh those worlds together?I think that's something that
for a lot of our listeners, thatis the challenge is, hey, I know
(07:45):
I need to be scripted. But Ialso need to use my own
language. I need to beprofessional, but I want people
to see me as a human. Talk to meabout your journey with that.
Jonathan McIntosh (07:54):
That is such a delicate balance. And that's
one reason that this jobrequires such high emotional
intelligence, EQ. And I thinkabout the the high performers in
any team, I think an ad they'reoff the charts when it comes to
emotional intelligence, becauseyou're reading the person on the
other end of the phone all thetime, and you're making
adjustments. As I think aboutscripts, to me a script is a
(08:15):
recipe. And if you've cooked orif you've made cocktails, you
need to stick to the recipe asclosely as possible, until you
start to learn the basics. Untilyou you really become
proficient. For example, I had afriend once who said, Hey, I'm
gonna, I'm going to start tomake cocktails, I'm gonna buy
some stuff and start to throwsome stuff together. But he
(08:37):
didn't know any of the classicrecipes. And why citrus works
with a bitter and you need asweetening agent. And then you
need a base spirit. He didn'tknow any of these classic
combinations that bartenders for150 years had been proving out.
And so he was trying to breakrules before he even knew the
rules and why the rules worked.So yes, absolutely, to the new
(09:01):
recruiter go by the scripts,that the people who have been
successful in this business for20 years are using, learn why
they work, learn the basics, andthat's the same thing with any
cooking recipe. But then as youstart to become proficient in
the kitchen, you know why Saul,fat, eat and acid work together?
(09:23):
And then you know how to adjustthose dials. You can start to
break the rules only after youlearn why the rules work.
Stephanie Maas (09:30):
Super insightful. I have never heard
it put that way. I love thatscripture recipes. That's a
great example. Talk to us alittle bit about this idea of
high emotional intelligence. Isit something that you have and
develop? Can you be taught it?
Jonathan McIntosh (09:44):
I think it's both. I think at the end of the
day, it is a trait that noteverybody has. I think everybody
can get it better. But we allhave an indifferent amounts.
There are these amazinglycharismatic people rule that you
just meet. And when you run intothem like I want you in my life,
(10:06):
your smile lights up whateverroom that you're in, you make
everyone feel like they are themost important person in the
world. But you don't have tohave that off the charts. This
off the charts charisma in orderto make it work in search. There
are plenty of people that arejust pay, I'm a good listener, I
bring a lot of empathy to thetable. I'm kind. And then I know
(10:27):
my work. I work my routine. Iwork my my daily calls. But
yeah, I think you can I think toanswer your question more
bluntly, I think you can we allcan get better at emotional
intelligence. I think that theentry point to that is
listening. I think when I'mdistracted, when I'm my mind is
somewhere else. When I haveanother app pulled up. And I'm
not fully invested in the call,I miss opportunities to
(10:50):
interject to ask a clarifyingquestion to double click on
something to go tell me moreabout that.
Stephanie Maas (10:56):
And again, I like your phraseology here, you
said you miss opportunities.
Jonathan McIntosh (11:00):
I think the key especially on the recruiting
side, when we're talking aboutcandidate recruiting calls, the
key to being yourself, andsometimes you may need to go off
script is when the person you'retalking to on the other end of
the line, this i This certainlyworks for marketing bizdev, as
well gives you this wonderful,beautiful thing. They've
entrusted you with something,they're opening up. They're
(11:21):
divulging something either aboutthemselves or about their
company. And it's in a requires,it's asking of you a certain
response to go, Wait a second,that's really curious. Wait a
second, what did you mean bythat? Wait a second, can we
circle back do you mind, youjust said something very, very
interesting to me. And whenwe're in this call with a person
(11:43):
is this almost sacred space, andyou're navigating these very
interesting waters, where you'retalking to them about some of
the most personal items in theirlives, their interests, their
passions, what they make on ayearly basis, what they think
they should make, why they areundervalued in the market.
Sometimes you're talking aboutracial dynamics, sometimes
(12:06):
you're talking about officeculture dynamics, sometimes
you're you're working throughthe most difficult and painful
things of their lives right nowthis toxic thing that I had to
deal with at work, and should Ileave? Should I be looking for
something else, but I've giventhis company or this
organization my entire life? Andnow I've got a boss that doesn't
see my value? And what should Ido in that situation? Jonathan,
(12:26):
it's not like what we do issuper difficult. I'm not trying
to overinflate the recruitersrole. But human beings are
important, and their stories areimportant. And do we treat them
as such?
Stephanie Maas (12:37):
Okay, so with that talk to me about this idea
behind pattern interrupt.
Jonathan McIntosh (12:42):
The basics of pattern interrupt is, first of
all, let's be honest, we are atleast the way we set up our
practice that thinking and wecold call people. And I think I
believe in the cold call, Ibelieve one. My opinion is no
one loves making cold calls, andno one loves receiving a cold
call. But I will tell you, someof my best clients, most of my
best clients, and some reallyclose friendships have come from
(13:06):
a cold call, I believe inpushing through the fear. And
there can be beauty on the otherside. But as soon as someone
picks up the phone, and they didnot let it roll to voicemail,
whether it's a bizdev orrecruiting call, the very first
thing they're thinking when theyhear Jonathan McIntosh thinking
I had executive searches, howthe hell can I get off this
(13:27):
call? As soon as possible? Theonly thing they're thinking is,
gosh, this was not the number Ithought it was right. Oh, I was
expecting call from a donorcolleague, friend, board member
boss. I was not expecting a coldcall today. And so you got to
realize they're like a scaredhorse because they're just like,
(13:48):
they're in their amygdala atthat point in time. And all
they're thinking is, how do Whyhang up and not seem like an a
hole right now? And you've gotto come in and be like, sheesh,
it's okay. It's gonna bealright, we're gonna get through
this together. Let me just calmyou down for one second. I'm not
a salesperson. I'm not here totry to sell you something. I'm
(14:11):
not really right now trying toeven recruit you for anything.
You can tell me to go pound sandanytime you want. Can I just
tell you why I'm reaching outtoday. And generally people are
like, okay, I can listen, yousound like a human being. You
sound like you know that this ispotentially awkward for me to
(14:31):
calm people down bringing themout of their amygdala so they
can pause long enough toactually hear what you're
saying. Because all they want todo is go nope, not for me. Nope,
not at this time. Note. We don'thire recruiters. No, I'm not
looking right. And so patterninterrupt is any way that you
can kind of stop that. Hey, I'ma recruiter. No thanks. Click.
(14:51):
That's the pattern. How do youinterrupt?
Stephanie Maas (14:53):
Okay, so show us how you do it. What do you say?
Jonathan McIntosh (14:56):
I had someone that we're potentially
recruiting to our team Anonprofit shout me the other
day. And I was expecting toleave a voicemail because I just
wanted to show like, hey, it'seasy. You just leave these
voicemails let me show you. Andthe person picked up the phone.
And it was a surprise to me. Iwas not call I was planning on
making that day, I was making itjust to literally show someone
in an interview setting how wedo it. And I found myself saying
(15:19):
Jonathan McIntosh thinking I hadexecutive search, I could hear
you know, you could sense thesethings like you can feel someone
tensing up over the phone, and Isaid, Look, I'm not trying to
sell you anything. In fact, I'mgoing to tell you, I'm calling
if that's okay. And you can tellme afterwards to go pound sand
if you like, is that okay? Andshe laughed. He said, Yeah, I
said, I'm gonna I'm gonnaHeadhunter This is a cold. So
(15:40):
I'll say that, like, I'm aheadhunter. This is a cold call,
no one likes to get these. Buthere we are. But my point is,
don't take my phraseology,experiment with what sounds good
coming out of your mouth. Onceagain, be yourself on the phone,
I'm not going to apologize formaking a cold call. In fact,
sometimes I will say, I'm sorry,I'm just now reaching out to
(16:02):
you, man, we've been in the samecircles for five years. And I've
never called you, I'm sorry, Idon't apologize for it's taken
me this long to call you. Buthowever, in your voicemail, feel
free to be just a little bitweird. I'm not saying be
completely off the charts goofy,and unprofessional. But at the
same time you're talking to ahuman being, maybe they're at
(16:24):
home, wearing somethingprofessional of top in their
underwear, and they're about tojump to a zoom call, you can
acknowledge just kind of thecraziness that just is all of
this, like everyone is justplaying pretend and anything
they do. And just kind of takethe mask off for a second. And
let some of your your humanenesscome through. I think that's
(16:46):
attractive. I think that's whatpeople respond to.
Stephanie Maas (16:51):
What do you think, causes people hesitation
from being themselves getting tothat point where they'll risk
being goofy or a little weird?Or going off script a smidge?
What's the mental hurdle therefor folks?
Jonathan McIntosh (17:08):
That's a fantastic question. I think
there's a handful of mentalhurdles, at least for me, one,
especially when I'm callingsomeone high up like a CEO of an
organization, big nonprofit thatI really respect, I want to
appear buttoned up professional,I want them to respect me, a lot
of that is on the ladder in myhead. And the ladder is a phrase
I got from some therapists onetime, it's when you are in
(17:30):
constant comparison, and rankingyourself and where you think you
stand either above or belowothers based on wealth, social
status. And so I can put myselfmentally on the ladder below the
CEOs. And so I've become eithertotally obsequious meaning like,
whatever you want to become aYes, man, or they become almost
(17:53):
too cold, you do have to readpeople, that high EQ thing is
you've got to be a bit of asocial chameleon. So when I'm
calling into the New Yorkmarket, I know that most of
those people that I'm reachingout to talk fast, don't have
time for BS, and the movingreally quickly. And my syrupy
southern charm can be lost onthem. So I can boom, get right
(18:17):
down to business when necessary.And you're trying to like, hey,
how much tolerance can't eventell this person has written
for? So yeah, we want to lookgood. We want to look
professional, we want to lookbuttoned up. Also, when you're
New Earth is you want to do it,right. I mean, I go through most
of my life, as far as work,parenting and marriage, how am I
doing it right? Am I failing? Ornot? How do I even know. And so
(18:39):
the scripts and the familiarityfeels good, because it provides
us with a sense, like, Hey, Imade my calls, and I did it on
script. And I can check the boxat the end of the day, and
that's fine. But I think if youwant to grow your billings, and
you really want to make amemorable impression in the
markets, it's not did I make mycalls ended up follow the
script, it's to make ameaningful connection today.
Stephanie Maas (19:00):
Correct me if I'm wrong, a lot of what I'm
hearing is, hey, in thebeginning, get your recipe and
thinking ahead, we give it toyou, hey, this is what it's
gonna take from a workperspective to be successful.
Put the work in, and then as youdo the work and start applying
these things, again, the bestchefs in the world, they all
have something unique. They makethe same dish. What makes their
(19:21):
dish outstanding, isn't that ittasted exactly like everybody
else's. It's that they put theirtwist on it. If I hear you,
right, that's where you go fromconnection to meaningful
connection.
Jonathan McIntosh (19:34):
Yes, that's it, Stephanie. But that does
take time. You can be patientwith yourself and it takes lots
of repetition. To go back to ourour volume piece. You know,
you've heard the story manytimes about the photography
students, one group of studentshad to go out and by the end of
the semester, produced 500photographs, the others only had
(19:55):
to produce one really highquality photograph, but the
students who worried aboutvolume You more than quality, by
the last set of photographs aremaking, their quality was
higher, your quality only getsbetter as you practice as you
get into it. That's why what wesay around here is, and I remind
myself of this because I makebad bizdev and marketing calls
(20:17):
all the time. They're awkward,they can't, I try to not make
them awkward intentionally. ButI mean, I remember the first
marketing call I made to someonein the nonprofit space in a, in
a performing arts organizationthat I wanted to work with. I
was nervously reading back myscript and and I said, and give
me a call and I read, I read thenumber aloud. And I was like,
(20:40):
Oh, I'm sorry, that's yournumber that I just couldn't
practice you. I am aprofessional, I promise. I will
tell you later, I ended upplacing that person at another
organization. And I've workedwith them since so it wasn't the
end of the world. My point is agood marketing call is one that
is made good marketing call isone that's made, it can be
(21:02):
perfect. And over time, withvolume, you get better and you
learn to become yourself.
Stephanie Maas (21:08):
Any thing else from your perspective, tips,
tricks of the trade, etc. thathelp you kind of push past the
fear of not soundingprofessional. The concern of
again, I love the latterreference, anything else that
you would recommend to ourlisteners just to help bridge
that gap from, you know, hey, weknow you have these concerns,
but just get there anyway orcounsel on developing their
(21:31):
emotional intelligence?
Jonathan McIntosh (21:33):
Well, once again, lots of fantastic
recruiters that really do followscripts really closely. And a
lot of them bill a lot more thanme. And they're, they're
wonderful. I would ask them,when's the last time you you
freshened up your scripts,because for me, it's like, hey,
or do the words coming out of mymouth for me, they got to feel
authentic. One of the bestthings I heard about sales early
on is that it's thistransference of energy. That's
(21:56):
what's happening. It's more thanthe words being said, it's the
feeling and the emotionalfreight and weight of that the
energy that's coming through.That's why we are phone people
more than than email people.Because you can have those,
those that delicate interchangesof energy on the phone, so much
better than you can be email,it's got to feel authentic. In
(22:17):
order for me to feel like I'mactually doing something of
good. And to leaving voicemailsor making calls that matter.
It's got to feel authentic. Sowhen's the last time you freshen
up your scripts? You know, onething right now that we're doing
our team, basically, we setdream target lists for
marketing, our fantasticassistant put together
basically, a vision board foreach of us with these target
(22:40):
organizations. And I've beenleaving voicemails telling
people at those organizationslike, Hey, I just want you to
know, I may not be on your dreamlist to work with, but you're on
my dream list to work with. And,you know, that may not mean
anything to you or not. But I'mgonna keep keep calling me
because I really do want us towork together at some point in
time
Stephanie Maas (22:58):
That is awesome. This has been incredibly
insightful and helpful. And Ithink whether you're just
starting out or if you've beenin it for a while, again,
whether your next level is justlearning the practice or
learning to get to the nextlevel. I think this is some key
information. So thank you somuch for your willingness to
(23:19):
share and bring us along on thisidea of finding your way to
being yourself and makingmeaningful connections.
Jonathan McIntosh (23:26):
Yeah, thank you, Stephanie. What an honor. I
really am grateful to be here.
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