With sign-stealing scandals shaking Major League Baseball, the game needed a solution. Enter PitchCom, the cutting-edge communication technology that’s changing the way baseball is played.
In this episode of The TechEd Podcast, host Matt Kirchner sits down with John Hankins, co-inventor and owner of PitchCom, to unpack the surprising origins of the technology (it was inspired by John's stage mentalism experience!), the innovative and unhackable tech that comprises the PitchCom system, and why it has completely changed the game of baseball.
Beyond baseball, PitchCom is a case study in applied technology—how engineering, wireless communication, encryption, and even sound design can be used in unexpected ways. The lesson for educators? What your students learn in the technical education classroom—electronics, software, mechanics, and problem-solving—can lead to groundbreaking inventions in any arena.
Listen to learn:
- How stage mentalism, sound engineering, and encryption tech came together to create PitchCom
- How PitchCom reduced wild pitches to the lowest levels in MLB history and sped up game play by cutting down time lost to sign-calling
- Why PitchCom’s encryption is so secure that it’s mathematically impossible for teams to hack—more secure than the number of atoms in the universe
- How engineering students can apply their skills in creative industries—from sports tech to entertainment and beyond
- Why college baseball, the Canadian Football League, and even scuba diving are exploring this technology
- What future inventors need to know about turning ideas into patented, market-ready products
If you teach technical education or have students interested in technology, this episode is a must-listen. The next big innovation could come from your classroom!
3 Big Takeaways from this Episode:
1. Innovation thrives in times of urgency and challenge.
PitchCom wasn’t just a cool idea—it was a solution to a crisis in baseball. The Houston Astros’ sign-stealing scandal created an undeniable need for secure communication, and John Hankins applied existing technology in a new way to fill that gap. Great inventions don’t start with ideas—they start with problems.
2. True innovation comes from blending different disciplines.
John’s background as an engineer, patent attorney, and stage mentalist gave him a unique perspective on communication and encryption. Whether it’s combining sports and tech, or magic and engineering, the biggest breakthroughs come from crossing industry boundaries and thinking outside traditional silos.
3. Data is the future of every industry.
PitchCom started as a tool to prevent sign-stealing, but now it’s unlocking new levels of player performance data—tracking pitch accuracy, command, and strategy in real time. From sports to manufacturing to education, those who understand and leverage real-time data insights will lead the future.
Resources in this Episode:
To learn more about PitchCom's technology, visit: pitchcom.com
We want to hear from you! Send us a text.
Instagram - Facebook - YouTube - TikTok - Twitter - LinkedIn
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Matt Kirchner (00:08):
It's The TechEd Podcast. My name is Matt Kirk
near your host. We're talkingthis week innovation. We're
talking technology. We'll talkentrepreneurship. We'll also
talk one of my absolute favoritetopics, which is the game of
baseball. Lifelong baseball fan,in my case, the Milwaukee
Brewers. So we're going to talkall about the game of baseball.
We're going to talk about howtechnology and innovation are
(00:30):
affecting America's favoritepastime. We're doing that this
week with John Hankins. John isthe CO inventor and owner of
pitch com. If you're notfamiliar with that technology,
you are going to be it isfascinating, really, really cool
stuff. So let me just start out,John by welcoming you to The
TechEd Podcast, and thank youfor being with us. Thank you,
Matt. I appreciate your havingme on so your origin story at
(00:52):
pitch com is really, reallycool. We were connected by a
mutual friend by the name of Joeray. So thanks and shout out to
Joe for putting us together.
Since then, I've had theopportunity to learn quite a bit
about your technology before weget into that. Just give us a
really, really quick 32ndoverview of what pitch com is
and how
John Hankins (01:09):
it works. Pitch com is a way for players or
coaches to communicate with eachother on the field, specifically
right now for baseball, it's away of covertly providing
signals such as pitches andlocations without actually
having to speak. Okay,
Matt Kirchner (01:24):
awesome. So you're an engineer, probably not
surprising with this kind oftechnology. You're a patent
attorney, which is pretty cool.
You're also a stage Mentalist,which I want to learn a little
bit about that. So tell us abouthow all three of those, the
engineering side of things, theIP and patent attorney side, and
then being a stage Mentalist,and what have you learned from
all of those experiences thathelped you lay the foundation
for your company? Sure,
John Hankins (01:47):
as an engineer, I shouldn't say I was really an
engineer. I was an engineeringstudent. I graduated with a
degree in electricalengineering, but not being that
great at math, I went right intobeing an attorney. I was more of
a, I would say a renaissanceperson, you know, in other
words, being able to do math.
But also I was involved inhistory, and I went to more of a
liberal arts engineering school,so it wasn't as intense as like
(02:09):
an MIT, or anything like that,but it was intense for me. So I,
I decided to become an attorneyinstead my senior year, and now
I still had the background ofelectrical engineering, so that
helped me understand, when thiscame up of how to do something,
I had the experience andknowledge to say what would work
(02:30):
and what wouldn't, what kind offrequencies would be good, what
kind of frequencies would not begood. So what kind of
communication? How would we beable to resolve this. As a
patent attorney, I led a lot ofbrainstorming sessions so
knowing how to think aboutthings and how to innovate, and
then, as a stage Mentalist, Ihad been around magic since I
(02:50):
was like five years old, andmind reading, and that really
played a lot into this, how tocommunicate on stage, providing
cues, controlling music cues,and controlling music cues
really was the genesis ofHitchcock.
Unknown (03:07):
So tell me,
Matt Kirchner (03:08):
when you say stage Mentalist, what does that
individual do?
John Hankins (03:11):
It does mind reading on stage, or at least
the illusion of it? It dependson your philosophy of of how
real it is, it is relativelyvery real looking. And sometimes
it is real, really cool. And Ican see how that would
completely influence the workthat you're doing as we get into
the technology here in just amoment. As a patent attorney,
did you specialize in a certainpart of a patent or I pila, I
(03:35):
was a patent attorney thatbasically got patents for
people. So I worked before thepatent office. Interesting. So
you were, you were an individualthat would work with a company,
work with an inventor, work withan entrepreneur that had an
idea, that would then work thepatent through the process to
actually get it through thecomplete process of patenting an
idea or patenting a product,correct, right? And typically,
large companies. So, you know, alot of semiconductors,
(03:59):
computers, medical devices, carcompanies like Mercedes, BMW,
Porsche, Nissan, I worked with.
So I worked on at least over10,000 patents.
Matt Kirchner (04:09):
Wow. So really, really cool. And so somebody
that's that certainly knowsstranger innovation, and here
you are working with all thesecompanies coming up with these
great ideas, and then takingthose ideas and getting them
protected and commercializingthem. And you're seeing other
people doing that, and thencomes the time for John to find
a way to do that himself. I knowa lot of what inspired this
(04:30):
technology, and many of us whofollow baseball will remember
the Houston Astros sign stealingscandal, huge, huge event in
baseball, really up ended thesport. So tell us about the
scandal and then how it led tothe invention of pitch count.
Sure, I'm going to take you back150 years, though awesome, I'll
John Hankins (04:48):
try and keep it short, but the science stealing
has been going on for 150 years,ever since people put down
fingers to identify there's acase where somebody was standing
a third base coach on a box andnine. 1900 and there was an
electrical shock that wouldshock this guy whenever a
fastball, and then he wouldrelay that to the batter. So
(05:09):
somebody with binoculars wouldshock the third base coach. His
leg would jingle. And they onlydiscovered that when someone
slid past third base and on amuddy day and it tore up the
ground, and they found theelectrical underneath one of the
biggest home runs of all timewas 1951 with Bobby Thompson
hitting the home run against theDodgers. And you know, that was
(05:29):
a very famous home run. But itturned out that they were
stealing signs with binocularsand lighting up the scoreboard,
putting up a certain light if afastball was coming. So it's
been going on, and now, withtechnology increasing. People
are using Apple watches. Thathad happened even before the
Astro sign stealing scandal cameup. So with greater technology,
the greater opportunities forsign stealing. Then with the
(05:51):
Astros, what they did wasactually kind of old school.
They used the center fieldcamera and it focused in on the
catch. They put a television.
This is all alleged, but, youknow, has come out in the books.
They put a television right nextto the dugout opening. And then
whenever, if they saw a fastballand decoded that for a fastball,
they would bang a trash can tosay a fastball, and it wasn't,
there would be no bang. Sopeople would expect an off speed
(06:13):
pitch. And just for yourlisteners, it's a huge
difference knowing a fastball iscoming or a curveball. And the
reason why is because if it's afastball and it's coming at your
head, you're going to duck outof the way. It's a curveball,
and you duck out of the way, youlook really stupid. I think
exactly drops right into thestrike zone. Yep. Yeah, exactly.
And so these guys are, you know,I'm not sure exactly what the
(06:36):
difference would be. I wonderedabout that with the batting
average difference, but it madea huge difference for the
Astros. They won the WorldSeries based on this, I
shouldn't say based on it, butallegations contributed.
Contributed. Yeah, so in 20192019, the scandal broke, and the
only way it really did wasbecause a former Astros pitcher
talked about it. You know, it'sbeen unwritten. You know, these
(07:01):
sign stealing scandals have beenunwritten, but people know about
it. They knew about it when theywere playing the Astros. They've
known about it for a long time.
So they've used multiple signs,you know, very complicated sign
systems. You know, the thirdsign after the number two or
something, or the second signafter the last one I called.
(07:21):
It's incredible. And the problemis it creates a time delay sure
in
Matt Kirchner (07:27):
the game, right?
You're waiting for the pitcherto figure out the catcher is
calling for and that just takestime and extends the game,
right? Absolutely.
John Hankins (07:33):
And so games really went from two hours and
15 minutes to three hours 40minutes on average. Every year
for the last 20 years, they hadgone up, sure. And
Matt Kirchner (07:44):
now with the pitch clock, that even
complicates it more, right? Sonow you're trying to get that
information back and forth.
You've got less time for youknow, again, our non baseball
fans, there's only a certainamount of time now that a
pitcher has to deliver a pitchafter the previous pitch,
correct?
John Hankins (07:57):
20 seconds, or is it now 18 and 15 seconds? So 18
seconds with a man on base and15 without, I don't think they
would have been able to do thepitch timer without pitch. Calm,
interesting, absolutelyfascinating.
Matt Kirchner (08:10):
So this whole sign stealing scandal, and it is
fascinating to me. I mean, youtalk about Apple Watches, even
technology from years and yearsago of using an electrical shock
and now we're literally sendinga signal to a batter by banging
on a trash can, which is aboutas UN technical as it gets, but
it worked for that period oftime. So clearly that indicates,
for us the need for a solutionlike this, right? If we're
(08:31):
extending the game because acatcher is trying to get a
signal out to a pitcher andtaking forever to do it, because
of how complicated that needs tobe, so that somebody doesn't
steal the sign let the batterknow what pitch is coming. So
this becomes the Genesis yourproduct or your solution,
allowing catchers and pitchersto communicate wirelessly with
one another. So walk us throughat a high level how that works.
(08:52):
What does the catcher have? Whatdoes the pitcher have? What
information are they sending?
Help us understand that. So one
John Hankins (08:58):
of the things that MLB wanted, and one of the
innovations that we came up withwas how to do this without
making traditional fans veryupset. So it's kind of hidden by
it all. So we use a transmitterabout the size of a credit card
and width and length, which acatcher holds, typically on
their shin guard, and it's anine button transmitter. Has
(09:20):
nine buttons, and so from thosenine buttons, and these guys are
really good at it, like playinga video game, they push a button
or so, and what it does is itsends a signal, a highly
encrypted numerical signal,essentially from one to 117 so
that number goes out, andeverybody who's wearing a
receiver, those receivers willdecode that number and it says
(09:44):
which audio track to play. Sopicture each receiver being an
mp three player like an iPod,the old iPod, people still have
them, and those tracks arelisted from one to 117 so the
transmitter will send numberseven and number 23 and all the
receiver. Us all, C number sevenand 23 and then we'll play
fastball. And then the locationhigh inside
Matt Kirchner (10:06):
got it so the pitcher, I guess, starting with
the catcher. So the catchersbehind the plate, they're using,
I'm assuming they're throwinghand and they're keying in these
numbers into something that's ontheir shin guard, the size of a
credit card that sends a number,if you will, to the receiver,
whoever's wearing that receiver,that then receiver, converts
that or into, is it a voice thatthey hear? Do they actually hear
(10:28):
what, like, what you said? Orno,
John Hankins (10:30):
it converts it into a number. And these are all
audio tracks that are prerecorded. Got it? Okay? So the
picture, here's a number. Yeah,if you've gone through a
McDonald's and you have thatradio, you know, fries with
that, right? That's a problem.
We don't have that problembecause everything's already
recorded and it's at thereceiver already, so all you're
doing is you're telling thereceiver. It's like a remote
(10:51):
control for the catcher to tellthe receiver what to play, got
Matt Kirchner (10:56):
it, and then the pitcher hears that and knows
exactly what pitch to throw andwhere you're located,
John Hankins (11:01):
and very importantly, so does the
catcher. So this has had a majoreffect on cross ups, so pass
balls and wild pitches have beenreduced to the lowest level in
history.
Matt Kirchner (11:13):
Wow, just because of the communication, because
the catcher knows what's comingin, is going to position
themselves to exactly,
John Hankins (11:19):
okay, awesome. And that was one of the things that
I really wanted to do. Now, oneof the interesting things also
is you can record it in anyvoice and anything else you
want, and we can provide areceiver that is in Spanish for
the pitcher and English for thecatcher, or German or French.
Doesn't matter. Every playerwho's on the field can hear it
(11:39):
in a different language,fascinating,
Matt Kirchner (11:41):
and you're encrypting that data, right? Did
I hear that? Right? So how do Iprevent the opposing team from
getting the same information?
There
John Hankins (11:48):
are more codes that you can use than there are
atoms in the universe, so theodds having the same one are
very minimal, like zero. If youtake a deck of cards, and this
is going to freak all yourlisteners out. If you take a
deck of cards out right now andshuffle it just a couple times,
and then look at the order ofthose 52 cards, that order will
(12:09):
never have been done in thehistory of the universe, ever.
Yeah, people are like, no way.
And I
Matt Kirchner (12:15):
heard that within the last year. Somebody
mentioned that to me, and thatjust it blows you away, right?
You have 52 cards and a deck ofcards, and when you shuffle it
several times, and it's neverbeen in that order ever, but
then you start to think aboutthe factorials of how many
different possibilities thereare in terms of the order of
those cards. And it's absolutelyfascinating. So in the same
sense, the odds of an opposingteam being able to pick up this
(12:37):
information would be the sameodds as trying to guess the
order in a deck of cards,
John Hankins (12:42):
yeah, or which atom is in which place in the
universe? I mean, it's justcrazy, huh? Yeah,
Matt Kirchner (12:48):
that's absolutely fascinating. So in terms of how
this then affects the flow ofthe game, certainly, we're
taking less time to get betweenthe catcher in the pitcher.
We're reducing pass ballsreducing catchers running around
behind the plate trying to graba ball that got by them. How do
the players feel about that? Imean, certainly the pitcher and
the catcher probably appreciatethe opportunity to be more
(13:10):
accurate and to have that gameflow. That in that regard, if
I'm a base runner and I'mlooking to advance by having a
pass ball, is that affecting theway that they look at this
technology at all? I don't thinkso. For one, they made it a
little bit easier, they made thebases bigger, and they also
reduced the number of throwovers. I think the players would
rather not be on the field forthree and a half hours. You
(13:31):
know, if you ever watch a gameand guys are standing around
because they're just it's a longtime between innings, or long
time between pitches, they'restanding with their hands on by
their sides, and they're notfocused having a game going like
this is just, it's moreengagement for the fans and more
engagement for the players.
Yeah, you think about a player,and you're playing, especially
in, you know, in a southernlocale, in an outdoor stadium,
(13:52):
and it's, you know, 104 degreesoutside, and, you know, you just
as soon be off the field, Isuppose, in two hours and 15
minutes, two and a half hours,than
John Hankins (14:00):
three and a half absolutely, you know, players
are like us. They're real. Yeah,exactly,
Matt Kirchner (14:04):
yeah. As unreal as some of their skills and
their abilities seem, they'rehuman beings, just like anybody
else. So I completely get it. Solet's talk about how widely
pitch com has been adaptedacross major league baseball. So
you suggested that in the MLB,the coaches can't use it with
their players. Is that correctfor starters?
John Hankins (14:22):
That's right.
That's right. Only five playersare allowed to use it. They eat
that. Very strict. Sotraditionally, only the catcher,
shortstop, second baseman,pitcher and center fielder could
see the signs. So that's fiveplayers. So that's why they keep
that, you know, some modicum oftradition. It maintains the
integrity of the game. Yeah,yes. Well, just also for
traditionalists, you know,because, if nothing else, fans
(14:44):
are very traditional minded.
Never noticed that in baseball?
No, of course not. But what isunlike anything before they
allowed pitchers to use it forthe first time last year. Now
pitchers can wear a transmitteron their. Out or on their glove,
and they'll call back the sign,some like Max Scherzer, you
know, very veteran pitchers aremore likely to be able to call
(15:07):
their own pitches. Sometimesthey take it away pitchers,
because all they want to do isthrow fast balls. Now, like, no,
no, you can't do that anymore,but it's nice, because what
happens is, although it works,where they can just shake and
the catcher calls another pitchwithin a second or two.
Sometimes they feel like thepitcher can just push back a
button and tell them, Okay, no,we're gonna go fastball. Yeah.
(15:27):
So it's almost becomesconversational. So if we think
about again in the game ofbaseball, and anybody who
watches it regularly has seenthis, where a catcher will call
a pitch and then the pitchershakes his head and waits for
another sign. Now we can kind ofhave that direct conversation.
So if the catcher is calling forand the pitcher wants to throw a
slider, all we do is, ratherthan shaking it off and hearing
fastball and shaking it off andhearing fastball, you can always
(15:50):
just single back, no, I want tothrow a slider, and they've got
that conversation going betweenthem. Am I understanding that?
Right? That is right. And someof the other things that can
happen this, as you say, it's aconversation. It's not just
pitch and location. We can dodefensive signals, like setting
up a defense or calling a like atiming glove, a drop glove,
timing, pick second base, andthey know that, and the
(16:10):
shortstop can run over at theright moment. But there's other
things too that they do, whichis things like, trust me. So the
pitcher doesn't it shakes off,and the catcher can push a
button and it says, Trust me.
And then we actually had someoneput No, trust me. And then
there's, uh, that's awesome.
There's some of the teams get alittle bit more scatological, so
to speak, where they will say,Yeah, heck yeah. Except they use
(16:33):
more sure, have more graphicterms, yeah. And there's some
development we're talking to acompany now that does training
for softball players and youngwomen. And they find they
respond better to women'svoices. They have certain power
words that help them. So this isa development tool Josh hater of
(16:55):
the Padres formula the brewers.
Yeah, exactly. He likes tolisten to himself, so he thinks
he's the best person to motivatehimself. So this is a way that
our tool can be used to enhanceplayer performance. Absolutely
fascinating. So how widelyadapted is it? Is everybody
(17:15):
using this? Or just certainteams? Tell me about that.
Everybody's been using it since2022 after about three weeks, I
think Alex Cora, the Red Sox,was one of the holdouts, and he
said, Well, this is stupid. Whyaren't we using this? Everybody
else has an advantage on us. Andso within about four weeks,
every team, every pitcher, everycatcher, was using it. And now
(17:37):
that was 2022 you know, 2324 andnow 2526 they're never going to
stop using an Allen tech. Yeah,that's fascinating. And so
you're continuing to innovatethe product. We're now doing
data collection. We don't do itat the MLB level yet because of
they don't want us to yet,although that could change. But
we've created a new product thatwill keep track of all the pitch
(17:59):
calls, and that way they candownload it. There's also, if
you understand the differencebetween control and command,
control talks about how manystrikes you're throwing, but the
strike zone is a very largedoesn't seem large if you're
having trouble throwing strikes,but it is relatively large. 84
baseballs can fit inside astrike zone. Wow. But what
(18:20):
command means? Where are youputting it in the strike zone?
If you put it in the middle ofthe strike zone, and good
hitters will hit it out. So whatwe're doing is we're able to
measure, no one has ever beenable to do this in game before,
measure the difference betweenwhere the pitch was intended to
be thrown and where it actuallyended up. Because we know where
it ended up. It's Hawkeye, youknow, which is a ball flight
(18:41):
measurement system, but no oneever knew where it was supposed
to be. Now we can measure it andget it down to the inch and see
which players actually have goodcommand, right?
Matt Kirchner (18:49):
No, that's fascinating. And not just I
mean, as my wheels are turning,I mean, certainly that is good
command. What pitch calls aremost effective, which pitcher
catcher combinations are mosteffective, most efficient, I
would think you can gather thatkind of data also thinking
about, I mean, so you'retracking data on defensive
shifts as well, right? You can,yes, you can track anything that
(19:11):
the thing calls, yeah. So nowyou can almost combine all three
of those, or all four of those,and say, okay, here is the pitch
call, here's the pitcher, here'sthe catcher, here's the shift,
here's the result. I mean, justthe data that you would have
available to yourself, you know,as a general manager, if you
will, or a data analyst for abaseball team. I mean that that
really that I geek out on that,as you can probably already
tell, that is reallyfascinating.
John Hankins (19:31):
They love data.
Hey, base baseball fans andbaseball teams, they love data.
We found that out
Matt Kirchner (19:38):
absolutely well.
And yeah, they're again being abeing a fan of the brewers and a
huge, huge they, I mean, they'vejust been, they would, they led,
really, in so many ways, thewhole transformation, using data
and Major League Baseball andset the example during the Craig
Council years. So fascinating.
We're just hoping Craig doesn'ttake that to the Cubs, right? So
far, so good if you're a brewersfan, but we'll see what
John Hankins (19:58):
happens. Sure you potentially. Didn't want that,
right? Exactly, all right. Sowas this your idea, John? I
mean, who came up with this? Itwas my original idea. Honestly,
the night I heard it break, thenews broke about the Astros, and
this was after they had beatenthe Yankees. And I will admit to
being a Yankees fan, even thoughnow I say my name is Johnny
(20:20):
impartial, the mind mafia name Ihave today, the impartial. But
Matt Kirchner (20:25):
I grew up a Yankee fan when you got a
California license plate behindyou and you're a Yankees fan,
yeah. Well,
John Hankins (20:31):
fans plant, of course. Okay, they had just been
beaten by the Astros in 2019 andthere was talk about Jose Altuve
wearing a buzzer under hisshirt. Frankly, we could have
provided that buzzer, but wedidn't. But you know, buzzers
are easy to make. We actuallyprovide a buzzer now for MLB,
for a clock com, which tells theumpires when the timer goes to
(20:52):
zero. You don't want umpireslooking you know, you want them
focused on the strike zone andnot the pitch clock. So when the
timer hits zero, we give them abuzz. So that's a small thing.
No one even knows we do. It wasannounced, so I can say it, but
no one cares. That's
Matt Kirchner (21:08):
who I care.
That's really, really cool. Soyou come up with this idea,
there's a bazillion people whocome up with great ideas that
don't get them implementedacross all of a major league
sport like Major LeagueBaseball. What happens after you
come up with the idea, you'vegot to develop the product, I
assume, and then you go to theMLB, or how do you get it
implemented? I actually
John Hankins (21:26):
did a brainstorm session with myself. I've led
hundreds of brainstorm sessionsas a patent attorney, where you
have six people in a room, andyou walk out of the place with
maybe, I used to be able to walkout with like 200 patentable
ideas in like, six hours fromthese guys. It was incredible,
especially when you get peoplegoing back and forth. But I did
it with myself. I said, this iskind of interesting. How can we
(21:48):
do it, you know? We don't wanttalking. We want catcher in
picture on the same wavelength,you know? So they both know it
has to look traditional, nolights, no microphones, no
watches, things like that. So Icame up with this idea of a push
button, and the way I did wasbecause of my mentalism, I had
worked with my partner, Craig,my now partner. I've known him
for 10 years, and this will goon to something I'll talk about
(22:11):
later, but he had createdsomething to control music on
stage. So a lot of times, youknow, especially if you're not
David Copperfield, you got to doyour performances by yourself.
So you call music to make itspooky, to make it bouncy, to
make it fun, whatever anintroduction. And so we have
ways of controlling music cues.
And so essentially, that's whatwe have. Are music tracks except
(22:34):
their fastball. You know, themusic's not as good as Taylor
Swift's or whatever, but it'sinteresting. You know, we could
play music out of our tracks.
But so
Matt Kirchner (22:46):
you develop the technology, you do the
brainstorming session, and thendo you just go to the
commissioner's office? Or how doyou get this implemented?
John Hankins (22:54):
The first thing, and this is what I advise. I had
a patent application on filewithin a week. Yeah, being a
patent attorney was kind ofeasier for me and my partner. I
called my partner and I said,you know, he wasn't my partner.
He was a supplier of magicianstuff. He does work with David
Copperfield, David Blaine, youknow, those type of people. I
said, Is this something you'd beinterested in? He said, Yes. So
(23:15):
we had a prototype done within aweek of that. It was bone
conducting then. So then thiswas right before the COVID hit.
So I wrote to the commissioner,or the commissioner's office,
and I said, I've got this greatidea to help you guys on I sent
them my patent. They said, Oh,we got something just like it,
yeah, yeah, you had. I saw thequick look on your face, the
(23:37):
same, same, like, yeah, was thatbud sealing? Or who is the
Commissioner at that time? Well,it wasn't the commissioner. I
wrote to the technology person,okay, got it. Rob Manfred was
the commissioner, and they saidwe got something just like it.
And I was like, really? Butnothing happened. So I tried to
contact reporters, lots ofreporters, anybody who had
written about the sign stealingscandal, they weren't
(23:59):
interested. One person respondedback and said, when you get into
MLB, then we'll talk to you. AndI'm like, Well, I don't need you
then, right? Exactly, yeah. Nowthey're all calling, right?
Yeah. And then I got on MLBradio and talked to them for a
little bit, and they quicklydismissed the idea, fine. So one
of my other passions is golf. SoI was at a golf meeting. It
(24:20):
couldn't get in anywhere, right?
Couldn't get to MLB at all. AndI was having lunch with a bunch
of guys with somebody's birthdayand I mentioned, they asked what
I was doing. I said, I got this,but I can't get into MLB. And
this guy said, Well, I know aguy who used to be an attorney
at MLB. Maybe he has somecontacts. So I sent him my
video, blah, blah, blah, and wehooked up with this guy who put
(24:42):
it on his head and said, Youguys know what you got here.
This is fantastic. So then thepandemic hit, and MLB was shut
down for nine months. So wedidn't get into MLB until
October of during the bubble,they had a bubble. During the
playoffs, we put it on thenumber two Commissioner's head,
the Deputy Commissioner, october2020, I'm guessing exactly, and
(25:04):
weirdly, it was in my backyard.
They were having the bubble inmy backyard, the golf course in
my backyard. That was, you know,kismet, as far as we were
concerned. Put it on the guy'shead. And a former catcher was
there as well, who was helpingas a special assistant, and they
went, Oh my God, this solves allof our problems. So at that
(25:26):
point, we were like, Okay. Andthen they they asked us, well,
can you meet with 20 of ourexecutives tomorrow by zoom? And
we said, okay, but even then,there was a lot of bumps on the
road. You know, we had boneconducting stuff, which was a
challenge, and then, because ofthe pandemic was still going on,
we couldn't test it duringtraining. We had to drop our
(25:47):
case off in the parking lot ofthe spring training facilities.
Someone had to come and pick itup, bring it in, and we weren't
allowed to be there while theywere testing it, and so we
couldn't show it how it worked,or anything like that. But the
response was, can we have it nowfrom all the teams she tested
it. Who are those early teams?
Can you say yeah, they were theArizona teams, like San
Francisco Giants and theCardinals, or, I think they're
(26:10):
Cardinals. I know the Giants forsure. Maybe the rays Dodgers,
all the ones training inArizona, because we're at
Scottsdale, by the way, that'swhere we're located. Got it. So
it was kind of easy for us, butagain, that was at that point,
you know, we'll try it. So wenegotiated the contract that
would let them try it for theyear, in July 1, we had to pass
(26:32):
safety testing, where they putour stuff against the steel
plate and shot baseballs at 100miles an hour at it, we failed
that the first three timesshards would come off. And we
learned a little bit. And nowyou can drive truck over it. You
make it out of the same stuff tomake the black box out of on the
airplanes, I'm assuming, right?
(26:53):
It's bulletproof, right? No, weactually use just 3d printing,
but it was a better material. Wewere using our own crappy 3d
printer. But, you know, wefigured out how to do it, but
you know, we changed the designa little bit. It was great
working with MLB that way. Thenthey tested it in a minor league
in 2021 for like, two months.
And then in 2022 we facedanother problem with the
(27:15):
lockout. Oh, yeah, I suppose intraining, Yep, yeah. So you want
to be doing all this testing,and there's no baseball yet. No
yet, no and so we only had amonth to convince MLB teams that
they wanted it. And fortunately,one of the best teams in testing
things out and tryinginnovations was the Tampa Bay
race. They loved it. And the daybefore the season started, it
(27:37):
was either going to be in doubleA or it was going to be in the
major leagues, one or the other,and they called us and said, it
doesn't make any sense to testit in double A we really want to
see what, what it's like in astadium we're going to be in the
MLB. And that was a good day.
Yeah, I was going
Matt Kirchner (27:54):
to What did that feel like? Right? Is that a
phone call? Is that a meeting?
How did you get that news? Itwas a phone call. I
John Hankins (27:59):
remember exactly where I was when they said it,
and the news was justincredible. You know, as a huge
baseball fan, right? I, youknow, I wanted to play center
field for the Yankees, and Ididn't play center field for my
high school team, so I was,like, eight levels down from
that, but now we're in the Hallof Fame. That's awesome. The
first one they've used is in theI'm in the Hall of Fame before,
like Pete Rose and Barry Bonds.
Yeah, exactly. Well,
Matt Kirchner (28:23):
and you didn't gamble on baseball or use
steroids either, so you got thatgoing for you. But, all right,
that's just such a cool story.
So I mean, are there any, like,really cool feedback you've got
from players? A really coolstory about, here's how it
changed the game, or here's animpact it had on a specific game
or a specific situation, sharesomething like that. We really
John Hankins (28:43):
are kind of isolated from the players a
little bit. So what we see arethings from the news which we
eclipse of and for example, likeShohei Otani getting picked off.
The Yankees Nestor Ortez wassaying, I was sitting there, and
all of a sudden I hear in myhead pick off. I turned around
and picked them off. Throughover there, just wheeled around
and picked off. Ohtani, that'sawesome. So that was kind of
(29:05):
cool, like that I had, you know,now we're in college, and I met
with a new college that juststarted using our system for the
first time. And, you know, welike to visit our teams if we
can. And so this weekend I wasthere, it was their first time
using it, and the guy came overand he said, You're John. I want
to give you a hug. This wasincredible for our team, and
(29:26):
that's what you love hearing,for sure. Those
Matt Kirchner (29:28):
are awesome, awesome stories. So a little bit
on the business model, withoutsharing anything you can't. I
mean, is your contract withmutual league baseball? Is it
with the teams? You know? What'sthe revenue model? I mean, what
can you share about that? Well,I'll tell
John Hankins (29:40):
you, we lease everything. We never sell our
product. So it's a lease, whichmeans anything breaks, we
replace it for free right away.
And like MLB gets brand newstuff every year. And big MLB is
very concerned aboutcompetition, you know, making
everything fit. So our lease iswith MLB and not with the
individual teams. Because. Maybethere'll be certain teams which
we won't name, who won't wantanything, and then other ones
(30:03):
do. But MLB has an interest inmaking sure everybody plays
quickly, plays fairly, so Ithink that's why they do it that
way. In college, we haveindividual contracts with each
team the SEC, which is one ofthe most important conferences,
we have a deal with the entireconference, and that's great,
because they kind of like rollthe roast. In a lot of ways.
(30:25):
It's fascinating,
Matt Kirchner (30:27):
you and maybe baseball doesn't work this way.
You'd almost think that thetechnology would start out in
college and then make its way tothe Major League Baseball. But
in this case, it was theopposite. Well, it happened
John Hankins (30:36):
at the same time.
Actually, there's anothercompany that was using wrist
watches, and at the same time,we were introduced in MLB, and
we're kind of supplanting themnow, because people like the
audio better, although certaincoaches, they say, Well, this is
we're used to using this. Andit's like, it's only 2022, you
started using it, so yeah, butthey're traditionalists, right?
Yeah. Air quote,traditionalists, right, yeah,
(30:58):
because it's three or four yearsold? Yeah, yeah, exactly. They
also had been using walkietalkies to the catcher only.
Yeah. Quite the advancementthere. So on the IP side, what's
in the patent? What part of thisis protected? Obviously, you
want to make sure that you'vegot that market position
protected. And if anybody knowshow to do that, it's a patent
attorney. What part of this isprotected? Well, we're about to
(31:20):
get our fifth patent. So theidea of having stored audio in
an audio that you will push abutton and play a remote track,
it's quite broad. It's quite agood patent. I have, yeah, lots
of applications for that. Iwould think, yeah. I was very
pleased about that. We also havepatents on the data collection.
We're working on a patent on thecommand data. We now have
(31:42):
wristwatch I told you, likethey've been using wristwatches
where the tracks are stored onthe wristwatch, or display
tracks. So that one's we expectto come out soon be issued. So
we're trying to cover the wholegamut, absolutely and
Matt Kirchner (31:57):
protecting all that, obviously super important
in so many differentapplications outside of just
Major League Baseball. You know,I'm a football fan. That's
probably not surprising. A GreenBay Packers fan. You think about
Jordan, love checking the playson his forearm, and since all
applications, they're preventingfalse starts or off size
penalties for football, allthose applications, I'm a huge
cycling fan, and we've had raceradio and cycling for as long as
(32:20):
I can remember, quite some timeto be able to send information
back and forth between cyclingteams and team cars and so on.
What are some of the othernations you're a golf fan? I
mean, are there otherapplications that you're working
on outside of Major LeagueBaseball? Well,
John Hankins (32:32):
for one, we're working on college baseball.
We're in Korea right now. We'rein Taiwan, we're in Mexico,
we're in Dominican Republic. Sothose baseball teams, but we're
in softball, so it's a hugething. It's a number three sport
in ESPN, wow. I didn't realizethat. Well, I absolutely fast
pitch softball. It'sfascinating. I love it. Oh yeah,
(32:52):
and they're serious, and thosegirls are women, I should say,
are really good. I didn't knowabout this beforehand, and it's
like, wow. But we're nowexploring football. We've been
contacted by the CanadianFootball League, and so you are
one of our first entrees intofootball. What's
Matt Kirchner (33:08):
the application in football? Is it getting plays
into the quarterback? Or what'sthe main application there?
Well, imagine
John Hankins (33:13):
every player hearing that. No more huddles,
every player can hear it. Andwhat's really cool, every player
might only be able to hear theirassignment. So you push a
button, everybody hears onlytheir assignment. So now wide
receivers don't have to listento all the other stuff and just
figure out their route. Yeah,
Matt Kirchner (33:30):
and then all the decoding that has to happen in
their brain between the huddleand getting lined up for the
play, all that, all that becomesautomatic.
John Hankins (33:37):
I forget people's name as soon as I shake hands
with them, and so I can'timagine, like huddles, but now
no more huddles, and also thequarterback make an audible at
the line using a smalltransmitter, and everybody hears
it without having to scream andshout and wave his hand. Yeah,
Matt Kirchner (33:52):
no more crowd noise on third down, screwing up
the offensive play, becauseeverybody got it right, right at
the line of scrimmage, huh?
Right? Yeah. Just fascinating,any other applications that
occur to you or that you'reworking on that our audience
should know about sure, likescuba diving, you can't talk
during scuba diving, but youmight want to, if you have
something underneath your maskor whatever you could hear it,
that would be anything nursing.
(34:15):
So like a nurse walks around andthey could get a buzzer, some
that tells them to come butwouldn't it be better to know
what is needed so someone couldpush a button that says, I need
medicine for sure, and it justto change lives in a positive
way and make somebody's job moreefficient, easier, more
effective, what have you?
Certainly there's a tremendousamount of fulfillment that comes
from that tremendous amount offulfillment that comes from
(34:38):
being an entrepreneur, frombeing an innovator. And then as
much as we've got a lot ofeducators and a lot of students
that listen to this podcast,John, if you've got some
thoughts or advice on somebody'sgot a great idea, and in your
particular case, obviously onethat has gone a long, long way.
What advice do you have tosomebody, whether it's a student
or an educator who's trying.
(34:59):
That student or has an idea oftheir own about turning ideas
into reality? Well,
John Hankins (35:04):
I'd say, first of all, I've been a patent
attorney, so you see a lot ofstuff, but the people who really
come up with the ideas are theones who are well steeped in the
technology, well steeped in theindustry. They know it. People
who come up with an idea, oh,for an automobile, there are a
lot of automobile engineers tocome up with a new like cover or
(35:26):
something, or a new thing thatsits in your car to hold your
cup holder. No, don't do thatstuff. But first, learn
everything there is to knowabout the industry you want to
innovate in. Knowledge is huge.
And I think that's like numberone, because if you know what
you're doing, then you know whatnot to do. You know what's tried
before, and then be open tofailure and be nimble. So what
(35:46):
happened? And this is a really,I mean, it's a true story. We
started with bone conducting,where we had bone conduct, which
is what, specifically you'veused that term a few times, just
to make sure everybody knowswhat that is. So bone conducting
is where you have, like, alittle vibrator that goes next
to your temples. And rather thanplay a speaker, a sound, audible
sound, you can, like, replicateit by putting your fingers in
(36:10):
your ears and talking. You canhear yourself inside your head,
and it's pretty cool. But theproblem is, we discovered it
wasn't loud enough, and to makeit loud enough, it would have
rattled somebody's skull, but itwas very sexy sounding. So we
had originally sounded, youknow, because we were worried
about anybody else hearing it,so bone conducting guaranteed
that no one else could hear it.
(36:32):
Well, it turned out the problemwasn't trying to keep it low
enough, it was making it loudenough, because in MLB stadiums,
it's hugely loud. So we hadapproached MLB with this bone
conducting idea, and they triedit. That was our prototype. So
now we realize that it justwasn't going to be loud enough,
because we've got to overcome120 decibels, which is like a
(36:52):
jet engine sometimes, wow. Andthe bone conducting problem
would have gone out to like 8085so we changed it, but it was a
huge decision on our part,because we had kind of sold MLB
on this bone conducting stuff,and so instead, now we're doing
a speaker. Do we do that or not?
You know, how clean do we cometo them? And so we did. We told
them this was, you know, aproblem, not a problem, but we
(37:14):
switched to speaker, and it wasfine, no issues, because it
works. But the story is beingable to change, be able to move
off of what you're doing. Andthe last thing I would say is,
it's huge. It's collaboration. Icouldn't have done this by
myself. Everybody wants to bethe sole Thomas Edison, by the
way, who worked with a lot ofpeople and failed a lot of
times, too, by the way, yes,exactly. What do you think? Like
(37:37):
1000 times? But the last one wasthe one
Matt Kirchner (37:41):
that, yeah, we found 9999 ways not to invent
the electric light bulb. I thinkwas what his line was. Yeah,
John Hankins (37:47):
right. But I worked with this guy, Craig full
of said he, I want to shout himout. He's just absolutely
incredible to work with. He's myco owner and partner. But I knew
it would work, because I knowhim, and I knew that I built on
work that he had done already,and that's the best thing, too.
Build on other people's work.
Don't copy it, but build on it.
And that's how patents work. Youall work, you know, and on the
(38:10):
shoulders of giants without
Matt Kirchner (38:12):
a doubt. So pick something you know is certainly
really, really good advice inyour particular case, being
fascinated and being a baseballfan didn't hurt. But pick
something that you know. Ifyou're going to innovate in that
space, don't do something thateverybody else is into. Really,
really hard to be successful, beopen to failure, and make sure
that you're collaborating withthe right people. All really,
really good advice for ourbudding entrepreneurs, as far as
(38:33):
thinking innovatively, and, youknow, you think about, you've
got really cool technology inthe, you know, kind of the magic
space, and then you're bringingthat into major league baseball,
in terms of bringing innovativeideas across different
disciplines. Do you have thoughtthoughts on that? Sean,
John Hankins (38:48):
yeah. And you know what? It comes from, magic,
actually. So magicians walk intoa store, whether it's staples or
just looks online, when you seesomething, you say, Well, how
can I use this? How can I foolsomeone with this. And there was
a great guy who did a wholemagic show based upon stuff he
found in a coffee shop withSwift sticks and packets of
(39:09):
sugar and everything else. Hetook the things that were there
and decided, What can I do withthese? But like with equipment,
devices, any kind of engineeringstuff, think about your
discipline, whatever you want tocreate, and then be open to
looking at things and saying,How can I use this in what I'm
doing?
Matt Kirchner (39:25):
Take the comment and find a way to make it
uncommon. Take common things,find ways to use them from an
innovative standpoint. Really,really good advice for our
students and for our educatorsthat are training them and
preparing them for whatevercomes next. Speaking of that
education pathway, and we allhave our own version of it,
whether we finished high school,went direct to the workforce,
went into the military, we wentto a technical or community
(39:46):
college, went on to a four yearuniversity, all great options
for our young people in terms ofyour education pathway. I'm sure
there's a couple things that youpicked up along the way where
you're like, This is somethingthat's that's somewhat unique to
me, that I have a pull. If thatI have the world of education,
or the education system here inthe United States, that you
think that nobody else does,what would that be?
John Hankins (40:07):
What I discovered for me was reading everything. I
read history, I read science, Iread physics, I read novels, I
read newspapers every day. Andyou get ideas from everywhere.
You pick up ideas onadvertising. You pick up ideas
on marketing, you know, Ibusiness strategies and
electronics, I read everything,and I I've been doing that since
(40:29):
I was in college or even beforethat. Really, I'm
Matt Kirchner (40:32):
the same way, for what that's worth. I, you know,
I do a ton of public speakingkeynote, a lot of events and so
on. And I actually had aninteresting invitation a couple
weeks ago. Somebody said, Willyou come and speak to our group
about how you prepare a greatbusiness speech. Hey, first of
all, I was flattered thatsomebody would think that I
would know how to do that, butapparently they do. But from
there, one of the things that'sgoing to be in that speech is,
I'm a big believer. And pickyour topic and then let the
(40:53):
ideas come to you. Don't golooking for the ideas. In other
words, if you try to sit downand write, I do a lot of writing
as well. Try and sit down andwrite the next best business
magazine column. That's reallyhard, if I think of a topic, and
then just let the examples andthe ideas come to me over the
course of a couple weeks, andthe column almost writes itself,
and I'm hearing kind of the samething that a lot of the ideas
(41:14):
and the innovation and thedifferent ways of looking at
things just come from reading awide variety of different
sources. We've got time for onelast question for John Hankins,
as we're wrapping up our timewith him here on The TechEd
Podcast. And that is this, John,I want you to travel back in
time. I assume when you were 15,you were a Yankees fan at that
age as well, but you're a 15year old young man. You're a
(41:35):
sophomore in high school. If youcould go back in that, back in
time, John, and tell that 15year old young man one thing,
what piece of advice would youoffer to him?
John Hankins (41:44):
What I would say is, this is, and I wish I had
done this better, which was tokeep my friends close. In other
words, keep all my contactstogether. Because you meet a lot
of people throughout life,whether it's in high school,
colleges. I mean, I've certainlykept in touch with many of my
friends from even grade school.
But you know, everybody you'veever been in touch with can
somehow help you shape you doall sorts of things and
(42:08):
establish connections. That's sohuge. Like my partner, Craig, I
had just worked with him. He wasmy magic supplier. But we were,
you know, became closer, andthen because of who we did, and
I did work for him for free. Sothat's the other thing, is be
giving. And then when the timecame, I said, Do you want to try
something with me? He trustedme. We knew each other. That was
(42:30):
it. Otherwise I would not bedoing this. I would not be in
the position I am. So you neverknow when a connection is going
to be important. And the reasonwe got into MLB was because of a
golf connection. Nice, yeah, whowould have guessed right? Right?
You don't know. So it'simportant, but I wish I had done
more of that when I was 15 andkeeping in touch. And nowadays
(42:51):
it's so much easier to do that,you know, send text and stuff
back then I had to write on anotepad and send, send a letter,
right?
Matt Kirchner (43:01):
Or call someone long distance or whatever,
right? I mean, this is, oh, mygod, yeah, exactly, absolutely
no. That's really good advice.
And we've, we've asked thatquestion to hundreds of guests,
that's the first time to believeabout keeping contacts from
early in life and along thejourney close and really
important. Yeah, I'm like, usesome of my best friends now. Are
guys that I went to grade schoolwith, in some cases, middle
school and so on. But there's alot of folks you know, for as
(43:24):
many as I've stayed in touchwith, there's a lot more that
I've lost touch with. So Sokeeping track of that and really
being intentional aboutmaintaining those relationships,
super, super important. I'm gladwe had the opportunity to make
contact with each other. John onthis particular episode of The
TechEd Podcast, obviously, beinga baseball fan, being a
technology fan, and loving toget to know entrepreneurs. This
has been a lot of fun for me.
(43:45):
You're doing some really, reallycool stuff. I know it's been as
great for our audience. Sothanks for being with us. Thank
you, Matt. Good luck to yourbrewers this year. Yeah, we're
looking forward. It's, you know,this is our year. I think this
is the Brewers year. Ourmanager, God, manager the year
last year. So we were proud ofthat really outperformed over
the course of the season. Sofigures Cross for another
successful Brewer season. We'llhave another successful up with
(44:07):
a TechEd podcast next week.
Until then, please check out ourshow notes. We have the best
show notes in the business. Youwill find those at TechEd
podcast.com/hankin sets. TechEdpodcast.com/h A, N, K, I, N, S,
check us out on social media. Weare on x we are on Facebook, we
are on Instagram. You'll find uson LinkedIn, wherever you
(44:29):
consume your social media, youwill find The TechEd Podcast.
Come look us up. Leave acomment, let us know you're out
there. We would love to hearfrom you, and looking forward to
seeing everybody back nextweek's episode of The TechEd
Podcast. Thanks for being withus. You.
It's The TechEd Podcast. My name is Matt Kirk
near your host. We're talkingthis week innovation. We're
talking technology. We'll talkentrepreneurship. We'll also
talk one of my absolute favoritetopics, which is the game of
baseball. Lifelong baseball fan,in my case, the Milwaukee
Brewers. So we're going to talkall about the game of baseball.
We're going to talk about howtechnology and innovation are
(00:30):
affecting America's favoritepastime. We're doing that this
week with John Hankins. John isthe CO inventor and owner of
pitch com. If you're notfamiliar with that technology,
you are going to be it isfascinating, really, really cool
stuff. So let me just start out,John by welcoming you to The
TechEd Podcast, and thank youfor being with us. Thank you,
Matt. I appreciate your havingme on so your origin story at
(00:52):
pitch com is really, reallycool. We were connected by a
mutual friend by the name of Joeray. So thanks and shout out to
Joe for putting us together.
Since then, I've had theopportunity to learn quite a bit
about your technology before weget into that. Just give us a
really, really quick 32ndoverview of what pitch com is
and how
John Hankins (01:09):
it works. Pitch com is a way for players or
coaches to communicate with eachother on the field, specifically
right now for baseball, it's away of covertly providing
signals such as pitches andlocations without actually
having to speak. Okay,
Matt Kirchner (01:24):
awesome. So you're an engineer, probably not
surprising with this kind oftechnology. You're a patent
attorney, which is pretty cool.
You're also a stage Mentalist,which I want to learn a little
bit about that. So tell us abouthow all three of those, the
engineering side of things, theIP and patent attorney side, and
then being a stage Mentalist,and what have you learned from
all of those experiences thathelped you lay the foundation
for your company? Sure,
John Hankins (01:47):
as an engineer, I shouldn't say I was really an
engineer. I was an engineeringstudent. I graduated with a
degree in electricalengineering, but not being that
great at math, I went right intobeing an attorney. I was more of
a, I would say a renaissanceperson, you know, in other
words, being able to do math.
But also I was involved inhistory, and I went to more of a
liberal arts engineering school,so it wasn't as intense as like
(02:09):
an MIT, or anything like that,but it was intense for me. So I,
I decided to become an attorneyinstead my senior year, and now
I still had the background ofelectrical engineering, so that
helped me understand, when thiscame up of how to do something,
I had the experience andknowledge to say what would work
(02:30):
and what wouldn't, what kind offrequencies would be good, what
kind of frequencies would not begood. So what kind of
communication? How would we beable to resolve this. As a
patent attorney, I led a lot ofbrainstorming sessions so
knowing how to think aboutthings and how to innovate, and
then, as a stage Mentalist, Ihad been around magic since I
(02:50):
was like five years old, andmind reading, and that really
played a lot into this, how tocommunicate on stage, providing
cues, controlling music cues,and controlling music cues
really was the genesis ofHitchcock.
Unknown (03:07):
So tell me,
Matt Kirchner (03:08):
when you say stage Mentalist, what does that
individual do?
John Hankins (03:11):
It does mind reading on stage, or at least
the illusion of it? It dependson your philosophy of of how
real it is, it is relativelyvery real looking. And sometimes
it is real, really cool. And Ican see how that would
completely influence the workthat you're doing as we get into
the technology here in just amoment. As a patent attorney,
did you specialize in a certainpart of a patent or I pila, I
(03:35):
was a patent attorney thatbasically got patents for
people. So I worked before thepatent office. Interesting. So
you were, you were an individualthat would work with a company,
work with an inventor, work withan entrepreneur that had an
idea, that would then work thepatent through the process to
actually get it through thecomplete process of patenting an
idea or patenting a product,correct, right? And typically,
large companies. So, you know, alot of semiconductors,
(03:59):
computers, medical devices, carcompanies like Mercedes, BMW,
Porsche, Nissan, I worked with.
So I worked on at least over10,000 patents.
Matt Kirchner (04:09):
Wow. So really, really cool. And so somebody
that's that certainly knowsstranger innovation, and here
you are working with all thesecompanies coming up with these
great ideas, and then takingthose ideas and getting them
protected and commercializingthem. And you're seeing other
people doing that, and thencomes the time for John to find
a way to do that himself. I knowa lot of what inspired this
(04:30):
technology, and many of us whofollow baseball will remember
the Houston Astros sign stealingscandal, huge, huge event in
baseball, really up ended thesport. So tell us about the
scandal and then how it led tothe invention of pitch count.
Sure, I'm going to take you back150 years, though awesome, I'll
John Hankins (04:48):
try and keep it short, but the science stealing
has been going on for 150 years,ever since people put down
fingers to identify there's acase where somebody was standing
a third base coach on a box andnine. 1900 and there was an
electrical shock that wouldshock this guy whenever a
fastball, and then he wouldrelay that to the batter. So
(05:09):
somebody with binoculars wouldshock the third base coach. His
leg would jingle. And they onlydiscovered that when someone
slid past third base and on amuddy day and it tore up the
ground, and they found theelectrical underneath one of the
biggest home runs of all timewas 1951 with Bobby Thompson
hitting the home run against theDodgers. And you know, that was
(05:29):
a very famous home run. But itturned out that they were
stealing signs with binocularsand lighting up the scoreboard,
putting up a certain light if afastball was coming. So it's
been going on, and now, withtechnology increasing. People
are using Apple watches. Thathad happened even before the
Astro sign stealing scandal cameup. So with greater technology,
the greater opportunities forsign stealing. Then with the
(05:51):
Astros, what they did wasactually kind of old school.
They used the center fieldcamera and it focused in on the
catch. They put a television.
This is all alleged, but, youknow, has come out in the books.
They put a television right nextto the dugout opening. And then
whenever, if they saw a fastballand decoded that for a fastball,
they would bang a trash can tosay a fastball, and it wasn't,
there would be no bang. Sopeople would expect an off speed
(06:13):
pitch. And just for yourlisteners, it's a huge
difference knowing a fastball iscoming or a curveball. And the
reason why is because if it's afastball and it's coming at your
head, you're going to duck outof the way. It's a curveball,
and you duck out of the way, youlook really stupid. I think
exactly drops right into thestrike zone. Yep. Yeah, exactly.
And so these guys are, you know,I'm not sure exactly what the
(06:36):
difference would be. I wonderedabout that with the batting
average difference, but it madea huge difference for the
Astros. They won the WorldSeries based on this, I
shouldn't say based on it, butallegations contributed.
Contributed. Yeah, so in 20192019, the scandal broke, and the
only way it really did wasbecause a former Astros pitcher
talked about it. You know, it'sbeen unwritten. You know, these
(07:01):
sign stealing scandals have beenunwritten, but people know about
it. They knew about it when theywere playing the Astros. They've
known about it for a long time.
So they've used multiple signs,you know, very complicated sign
systems. You know, the thirdsign after the number two or
something, or the second signafter the last one I called.
(07:21):
It's incredible. And the problemis it creates a time delay sure
in
Matt Kirchner (07:27):
the game, right?
You're waiting for the pitcherto figure out the catcher is
calling for and that just takestime and extends the game,
right? Absolutely.
John Hankins (07:33):
And so games really went from two hours and
15 minutes to three hours 40minutes on average. Every year
for the last 20 years, they hadgone up, sure. And
Matt Kirchner (07:44):
now with the pitch clock, that even
complicates it more, right? Sonow you're trying to get that
information back and forth.
You've got less time for youknow, again, our non baseball
fans, there's only a certainamount of time now that a
pitcher has to deliver a pitchafter the previous pitch,
correct?
John Hankins (07:57):
20 seconds, or is it now 18 and 15 seconds? So 18
seconds with a man on base and15 without, I don't think they
would have been able to do thepitch timer without pitch. Calm,
interesting, absolutelyfascinating.
Matt Kirchner (08:10):
So this whole sign stealing scandal, and it is
fascinating to me. I mean, youtalk about Apple Watches, even
technology from years and yearsago of using an electrical shock
and now we're literally sendinga signal to a batter by banging
on a trash can, which is aboutas UN technical as it gets, but
it worked for that period oftime. So clearly that indicates,
for us the need for a solutionlike this, right? If we're
(08:31):
extending the game because acatcher is trying to get a
signal out to a pitcher andtaking forever to do it, because
of how complicated that needs tobe, so that somebody doesn't
steal the sign let the batterknow what pitch is coming. So
this becomes the Genesis yourproduct or your solution,
allowing catchers and pitchersto communicate wirelessly with
one another. So walk us throughat a high level how that works.
(08:52):
What does the catcher have? Whatdoes the pitcher have? What
information are they sending?
Help us understand that. So one
John Hankins (08:58):
of the things that MLB wanted, and one of the
innovations that we came up withwas how to do this without
making traditional fans veryupset. So it's kind of hidden by
it all. So we use a transmitterabout the size of a credit card
and width and length, which acatcher holds, typically on
their shin guard, and it's anine button transmitter. Has
(09:20):
nine buttons, and so from thosenine buttons, and these guys are
really good at it, like playinga video game, they push a button
or so, and what it does is itsends a signal, a highly
encrypted numerical signal,essentially from one to 117 so
that number goes out, andeverybody who's wearing a
receiver, those receivers willdecode that number and it says
(09:44):
which audio track to play. Sopicture each receiver being an
mp three player like an iPod,the old iPod, people still have
them, and those tracks arelisted from one to 117 so the
transmitter will send numberseven and number 23 and all the
receiver. Us all, C number sevenand 23 and then we'll play
fastball. And then the locationhigh inside
Matt Kirchner (10:06):
got it so the pitcher, I guess, starting with
the catcher. So the catchersbehind the plate, they're using,
I'm assuming they're throwinghand and they're keying in these
numbers into something that's ontheir shin guard, the size of a
credit card that sends a number,if you will, to the receiver,
whoever's wearing that receiver,that then receiver, converts
that or into, is it a voice thatthey hear? Do they actually hear
(10:28):
what, like, what you said? Orno,
John Hankins (10:30):
it converts it into a number. And these are all
audio tracks that are prerecorded. Got it? Okay? So the
picture, here's a number. Yeah,if you've gone through a
McDonald's and you have thatradio, you know, fries with
that, right? That's a problem.
We don't have that problembecause everything's already
recorded and it's at thereceiver already, so all you're
doing is you're telling thereceiver. It's like a remote
(10:51):
control for the catcher to tellthe receiver what to play, got
Matt Kirchner (10:56):
it, and then the pitcher hears that and knows
exactly what pitch to throw andwhere you're located,
John Hankins (11:01):
and very importantly, so does the
catcher. So this has had a majoreffect on cross ups, so pass
balls and wild pitches have beenreduced to the lowest level in
history.
Matt Kirchner (11:13):
Wow, just because of the communication, because
the catcher knows what's comingin, is going to position
themselves to exactly,
John Hankins (11:19):
okay, awesome. And that was one of the things that
I really wanted to do. Now, oneof the interesting things also
is you can record it in anyvoice and anything else you
want, and we can provide areceiver that is in Spanish for
the pitcher and English for thecatcher, or German or French.
Doesn't matter. Every playerwho's on the field can hear it
(11:39):
in a different language,fascinating,
Matt Kirchner (11:41):
and you're encrypting that data, right? Did
I hear that? Right? So how do Iprevent the opposing team from
getting the same information?
There
John Hankins (11:48):
are more codes that you can use than there are
atoms in the universe, so theodds having the same one are
very minimal, like zero. If youtake a deck of cards, and this
is going to freak all yourlisteners out. If you take a
deck of cards out right now andshuffle it just a couple times,
and then look at the order ofthose 52 cards, that order will
(12:09):
never have been done in thehistory of the universe, ever.
Yeah, people are like, no way.
And I
Matt Kirchner (12:15):
heard that within the last year. Somebody
mentioned that to me, and thatjust it blows you away, right?
You have 52 cards and a deck ofcards, and when you shuffle it
several times, and it's neverbeen in that order ever, but
then you start to think aboutthe factorials of how many
different possibilities thereare in terms of the order of
those cards. And it's absolutelyfascinating. So in the same
sense, the odds of an opposingteam being able to pick up this
(12:37):
information would be the sameodds as trying to guess the
order in a deck of cards,
John Hankins (12:42):
yeah, or which atom is in which place in the
universe? I mean, it's justcrazy, huh? Yeah,
Matt Kirchner (12:48):
that's absolutely fascinating. So in terms of how
this then affects the flow ofthe game, certainly, we're
taking less time to get betweenthe catcher in the pitcher.
We're reducing pass ballsreducing catchers running around
behind the plate trying to graba ball that got by them. How do
the players feel about that? Imean, certainly the pitcher and
the catcher probably appreciatethe opportunity to be more
(13:10):
accurate and to have that gameflow. That in that regard, if
I'm a base runner and I'mlooking to advance by having a
pass ball, is that affecting theway that they look at this
technology at all? I don't thinkso. For one, they made it a
little bit easier, they made thebases bigger, and they also
reduced the number of throwovers. I think the players would
rather not be on the field forthree and a half hours. You
(13:31):
know, if you ever watch a gameand guys are standing around
because they're just it's a longtime between innings, or long
time between pitches, they'restanding with their hands on by
their sides, and they're notfocused having a game going like
this is just, it's moreengagement for the fans and more
engagement for the players.
Yeah, you think about a player,and you're playing, especially
in, you know, in a southernlocale, in an outdoor stadium,
(13:52):
and it's, you know, 104 degreesoutside, and, you know, you just
as soon be off the field, Isuppose, in two hours and 15
minutes, two and a half hours,than
John Hankins (14:00):
three and a half absolutely, you know, players
are like us. They're real. Yeah,exactly,
Matt Kirchner (14:04):
yeah. As unreal as some of their skills and
their abilities seem, they'rehuman beings, just like anybody
else. So I completely get it. Solet's talk about how widely
pitch com has been adaptedacross major league baseball. So
you suggested that in the MLB,the coaches can't use it with
their players. Is that correctfor starters?
John Hankins (14:22):
That's right.
That's right. Only five playersare allowed to use it. They eat
that. Very strict. Sotraditionally, only the catcher,
shortstop, second baseman,pitcher and center fielder could
see the signs. So that's fiveplayers. So that's why they keep
that, you know, some modicum oftradition. It maintains the
integrity of the game. Yeah,yes. Well, just also for
traditionalists, you know,because, if nothing else, fans
(14:44):
are very traditional minded.
Never noticed that in baseball?
No, of course not. But what isunlike anything before they
allowed pitchers to use it forthe first time last year. Now
pitchers can wear a transmitteron their. Out or on their glove,
and they'll call back the sign,some like Max Scherzer, you
know, very veteran pitchers aremore likely to be able to call
(15:07):
their own pitches. Sometimesthey take it away pitchers,
because all they want to do isthrow fast balls. Now, like, no,
no, you can't do that anymore,but it's nice, because what
happens is, although it works,where they can just shake and
the catcher calls another pitchwithin a second or two.
Sometimes they feel like thepitcher can just push back a
button and tell them, Okay, no,we're gonna go fastball. Yeah.
(15:27):
So it's almost becomesconversational. So if we think
about again in the game ofbaseball, and anybody who
watches it regularly has seenthis, where a catcher will call
a pitch and then the pitchershakes his head and waits for
another sign. Now we can kind ofhave that direct conversation.
So if the catcher is calling forand the pitcher wants to throw a
slider, all we do is, ratherthan shaking it off and hearing
fastball and shaking it off andhearing fastball, you can always
(15:50):
just single back, no, I want tothrow a slider, and they've got
that conversation going betweenthem. Am I understanding that?
Right? That is right. And someof the other things that can
happen this, as you say, it's aconversation. It's not just
pitch and location. We can dodefensive signals, like setting
up a defense or calling a like atiming glove, a drop glove,
timing, pick second base, andthey know that, and the
(16:10):
shortstop can run over at theright moment. But there's other
things too that they do, whichis things like, trust me. So the
pitcher doesn't it shakes off,and the catcher can push a
button and it says, Trust me.
And then we actually had someoneput No, trust me. And then
there's, uh, that's awesome.
There's some of the teams get alittle bit more scatological, so
to speak, where they will say,Yeah, heck yeah. Except they use
(16:33):
more sure, have more graphicterms, yeah. And there's some
development we're talking to acompany now that does training
for softball players and youngwomen. And they find they
respond better to women'svoices. They have certain power
words that help them. So this isa development tool Josh hater of
(16:55):
the Padres formula the brewers.
Yeah, exactly. He likes tolisten to himself, so he thinks
he's the best person to motivatehimself. So this is a way that
our tool can be used to enhanceplayer performance. Absolutely
fascinating. So how widelyadapted is it? Is everybody
(17:15):
using this? Or just certainteams? Tell me about that.
Everybody's been using it since2022 after about three weeks, I
think Alex Cora, the Red Sox,was one of the holdouts, and he
said, Well, this is stupid. Whyaren't we using this? Everybody
else has an advantage on us. Andso within about four weeks,
every team, every pitcher, everycatcher, was using it. And now
(17:37):
that was 2022 you know, 2324 andnow 2526 they're never going to
stop using an Allen tech. Yeah,that's fascinating. And so
you're continuing to innovatethe product. We're now doing
data collection. We don't do itat the MLB level yet because of
they don't want us to yet,although that could change. But
we've created a new product thatwill keep track of all the pitch
(17:59):
calls, and that way they candownload it. There's also, if
you understand the differencebetween control and command,
control talks about how manystrikes you're throwing, but the
strike zone is a very largedoesn't seem large if you're
having trouble throwing strikes,but it is relatively large. 84
baseballs can fit inside astrike zone. Wow. But what
(18:20):
command means? Where are youputting it in the strike zone?
If you put it in the middle ofthe strike zone, and good
hitters will hit it out. So whatwe're doing is we're able to
measure, no one has ever beenable to do this in game before,
measure the difference betweenwhere the pitch was intended to
be thrown and where it actuallyended up. Because we know where
it ended up. It's Hawkeye, youknow, which is a ball flight
(18:41):
measurement system, but no oneever knew where it was supposed
to be. Now we can measure it andget it down to the inch and see
which players actually have goodcommand, right?
Matt Kirchner (18:49):
No, that's fascinating. And not just I
mean, as my wheels are turning,I mean, certainly that is good
command. What pitch calls aremost effective, which pitcher
catcher combinations are mosteffective, most efficient, I
would think you can gather thatkind of data also thinking
about, I mean, so you'retracking data on defensive
shifts as well, right? You can,yes, you can track anything that
(19:11):
the thing calls, yeah. So nowyou can almost combine all three
of those, or all four of those,and say, okay, here is the pitch
call, here's the pitcher, here'sthe catcher, here's the shift,
here's the result. I mean, justthe data that you would have
available to yourself, you know,as a general manager, if you
will, or a data analyst for abaseball team. I mean that that
really that I geek out on that,as you can probably already
tell, that is reallyfascinating.
John Hankins (19:31):
They love data.
Hey, base baseball fans andbaseball teams, they love data.
We found that out
Matt Kirchner (19:38):
absolutely well.
And yeah, they're again being abeing a fan of the brewers and a
huge, huge they, I mean, they'vejust been, they would, they led,
really, in so many ways, thewhole transformation, using data
and Major League Baseball andset the example during the Craig
Council years. So fascinating.
We're just hoping Craig doesn'ttake that to the Cubs, right? So
far, so good if you're a brewersfan, but we'll see what
John Hankins (19:58):
happens. Sure you potentially. Didn't want that,
right? Exactly, all right. Sowas this your idea, John? I
mean, who came up with this? Itwas my original idea. Honestly,
the night I heard it break, thenews broke about the Astros, and
this was after they had beatenthe Yankees. And I will admit to
being a Yankees fan, even thoughnow I say my name is Johnny
(20:20):
impartial, the mind mafia name Ihave today, the impartial. But
Matt Kirchner (20:25):
I grew up a Yankee fan when you got a
California license plate behindyou and you're a Yankees fan,
yeah. Well,
John Hankins (20:31):
fans plant, of course. Okay, they had just been
beaten by the Astros in 2019 andthere was talk about Jose Altuve
wearing a buzzer under hisshirt. Frankly, we could have
provided that buzzer, but wedidn't. But you know, buzzers
are easy to make. We actuallyprovide a buzzer now for MLB,
for a clock com, which tells theumpires when the timer goes to
(20:52):
zero. You don't want umpireslooking you know, you want them
focused on the strike zone andnot the pitch clock. So when the
timer hits zero, we give them abuzz. So that's a small thing.
No one even knows we do. It wasannounced, so I can say it, but
no one cares. That's
Matt Kirchner (21:08):
who I care.
That's really, really cool. Soyou come up with this idea,
there's a bazillion people whocome up with great ideas that
don't get them implementedacross all of a major league
sport like Major LeagueBaseball. What happens after you
come up with the idea, you'vegot to develop the product, I
assume, and then you go to theMLB, or how do you get it
implemented? I actually
John Hankins (21:26):
did a brainstorm session with myself. I've led
hundreds of brainstorm sessionsas a patent attorney, where you
have six people in a room, andyou walk out of the place with
maybe, I used to be able to walkout with like 200 patentable
ideas in like, six hours fromthese guys. It was incredible,
especially when you get peoplegoing back and forth. But I did
it with myself. I said, this iskind of interesting. How can we
(21:48):
do it, you know? We don't wanttalking. We want catcher in
picture on the same wavelength,you know? So they both know it
has to look traditional, nolights, no microphones, no
watches, things like that. So Icame up with this idea of a push
button, and the way I did wasbecause of my mentalism, I had
worked with my partner, Craig,my now partner. I've known him
for 10 years, and this will goon to something I'll talk about
(22:11):
later, but he had createdsomething to control music on
stage. So a lot of times, youknow, especially if you're not
David Copperfield, you got to doyour performances by yourself.
So you call music to make itspooky, to make it bouncy, to
make it fun, whatever anintroduction. And so we have
ways of controlling music cues.
And so essentially, that's whatwe have. Are music tracks except
(22:34):
their fastball. You know, themusic's not as good as Taylor
Swift's or whatever, but it'sinteresting. You know, we could
play music out of our tracks.
But so
Matt Kirchner (22:46):
you develop the technology, you do the
brainstorming session, and thendo you just go to the
commissioner's office? Or how doyou get this implemented?
John Hankins (22:54):
The first thing, and this is what I advise. I had
a patent application on filewithin a week. Yeah, being a
patent attorney was kind ofeasier for me and my partner. I
called my partner and I said,you know, he wasn't my partner.
He was a supplier of magicianstuff. He does work with David
Copperfield, David Blaine, youknow, those type of people. I
said, Is this something you'd beinterested in? He said, Yes. So
(23:15):
we had a prototype done within aweek of that. It was bone
conducting then. So then thiswas right before the COVID hit.
So I wrote to the commissioner,or the commissioner's office,
and I said, I've got this greatidea to help you guys on I sent
them my patent. They said, Oh,we got something just like it,
yeah, yeah, you had. I saw thequick look on your face, the
(23:37):
same, same, like, yeah, was thatbud sealing? Or who is the
Commissioner at that time? Well,it wasn't the commissioner. I
wrote to the technology person,okay, got it. Rob Manfred was
the commissioner, and they saidwe got something just like it.
And I was like, really? Butnothing happened. So I tried to
contact reporters, lots ofreporters, anybody who had
written about the sign stealingscandal, they weren't
(23:59):
interested. One person respondedback and said, when you get into
MLB, then we'll talk to you. AndI'm like, Well, I don't need you
then, right? Exactly, yeah. Nowthey're all calling, right?
Yeah. And then I got on MLBradio and talked to them for a
little bit, and they quicklydismissed the idea, fine. So one
of my other passions is golf. SoI was at a golf meeting. It
(24:20):
couldn't get in anywhere, right?
Couldn't get to MLB at all. AndI was having lunch with a bunch
of guys with somebody's birthdayand I mentioned, they asked what
I was doing. I said, I got this,but I can't get into MLB. And
this guy said, Well, I know aguy who used to be an attorney
at MLB. Maybe he has somecontacts. So I sent him my
video, blah, blah, blah, and wehooked up with this guy who put
(24:42):
it on his head and said, Youguys know what you got here.
This is fantastic. So then thepandemic hit, and MLB was shut
down for nine months. So wedidn't get into MLB until
October of during the bubble,they had a bubble. During the
playoffs, we put it on thenumber two Commissioner's head,
the Deputy Commissioner, october2020, I'm guessing exactly, and
(25:04):
weirdly, it was in my backyard.
They were having the bubble inmy backyard, the golf course in
my backyard. That was, you know,kismet, as far as we were
concerned. Put it on the guy'shead. And a former catcher was
there as well, who was helpingas a special assistant, and they
went, Oh my God, this solves allof our problems. So at that
(25:26):
point, we were like, Okay. Andthen they they asked us, well,
can you meet with 20 of ourexecutives tomorrow by zoom? And
we said, okay, but even then,there was a lot of bumps on the
road. You know, we had boneconducting stuff, which was a
challenge, and then, because ofthe pandemic was still going on,
we couldn't test it duringtraining. We had to drop our
(25:47):
case off in the parking lot ofthe spring training facilities.
Someone had to come and pick itup, bring it in, and we weren't
allowed to be there while theywere testing it, and so we
couldn't show it how it worked,or anything like that. But the
response was, can we have it nowfrom all the teams she tested
it. Who are those early teams?
Can you say yeah, they were theArizona teams, like San
Francisco Giants and theCardinals, or, I think they're
(26:10):
Cardinals. I know the Giants forsure. Maybe the rays Dodgers,
all the ones training inArizona, because we're at
Scottsdale, by the way, that'swhere we're located. Got it. So
it was kind of easy for us, butagain, that was at that point,
you know, we'll try it. So wenegotiated the contract that
would let them try it for theyear, in July 1, we had to pass
(26:32):
safety testing, where they putour stuff against the steel
plate and shot baseballs at 100miles an hour at it, we failed
that the first three timesshards would come off. And we
learned a little bit. And nowyou can drive truck over it. You
make it out of the same stuff tomake the black box out of on the
airplanes, I'm assuming, right?
(26:53):
It's bulletproof, right? No, weactually use just 3d printing,
but it was a better material. Wewere using our own crappy 3d
printer. But, you know, wefigured out how to do it, but
you know, we changed the designa little bit. It was great
working with MLB that way. Thenthey tested it in a minor league
in 2021 for like, two months.
And then in 2022 we facedanother problem with the
(27:15):
lockout. Oh, yeah, I suppose intraining, Yep, yeah. So you want
to be doing all this testing,and there's no baseball yet. No
yet, no and so we only had amonth to convince MLB teams that
they wanted it. And fortunately,one of the best teams in testing
things out and tryinginnovations was the Tampa Bay
race. They loved it. And the daybefore the season started, it
(27:37):
was either going to be in doubleA or it was going to be in the
major leagues, one or the other,and they called us and said, it
doesn't make any sense to testit in double A we really want to
see what, what it's like in astadium we're going to be in the
MLB. And that was a good day.
Yeah, I was going
Matt Kirchner (27:54):
to What did that feel like? Right? Is that a
phone call? Is that a meeting?
How did you get that news? Itwas a phone call. I
John Hankins (27:59):
remember exactly where I was when they said it,
and the news was justincredible. You know, as a huge
baseball fan, right? I, youknow, I wanted to play center
field for the Yankees, and Ididn't play center field for my
high school team, so I was,like, eight levels down from
that, but now we're in the Hallof Fame. That's awesome. The
first one they've used is in theI'm in the Hall of Fame before,
like Pete Rose and Barry Bonds.
Yeah, exactly. Well,
Matt Kirchner (28:23):
and you didn't gamble on baseball or use
steroids either, so you got thatgoing for you. But, all right,
that's just such a cool story.
So I mean, are there any, like,really cool feedback you've got
from players? A really coolstory about, here's how it
changed the game, or here's animpact it had on a specific game
or a specific situation, sharesomething like that. We really
John Hankins (28:43):
are kind of isolated from the players a
little bit. So what we see arethings from the news which we
eclipse of and for example, likeShohei Otani getting picked off.
The Yankees Nestor Ortez wassaying, I was sitting there, and
all of a sudden I hear in myhead pick off. I turned around
and picked them off. Throughover there, just wheeled around
and picked off. Ohtani, that'sawesome. So that was kind of
(29:05):
cool, like that I had, you know,now we're in college, and I met
with a new college that juststarted using our system for the
first time. And, you know, welike to visit our teams if we
can. And so this weekend I wasthere, it was their first time
using it, and the guy came overand he said, You're John. I want
to give you a hug. This wasincredible for our team, and
(29:26):
that's what you love hearing,for sure. Those
Matt Kirchner (29:28):
are awesome, awesome stories. So a little bit
on the business model, withoutsharing anything you can't. I
mean, is your contract withmutual league baseball? Is it
with the teams? You know? What'sthe revenue model? I mean, what
can you share about that? Well,I'll tell
John Hankins (29:40):
you, we lease everything. We never sell our
product. So it's a lease, whichmeans anything breaks, we
replace it for free right away.
And like MLB gets brand newstuff every year. And big MLB is
very concerned aboutcompetition, you know, making
everything fit. So our lease iswith MLB and not with the
individual teams. Because. Maybethere'll be certain teams which
we won't name, who won't wantanything, and then other ones
(30:03):
do. But MLB has an interest inmaking sure everybody plays
quickly, plays fairly, so Ithink that's why they do it that
way. In college, we haveindividual contracts with each
team the SEC, which is one ofthe most important conferences,
we have a deal with the entireconference, and that's great,
because they kind of like rollthe roast. In a lot of ways.
(30:25):
It's fascinating,
Matt Kirchner (30:27):
you and maybe baseball doesn't work this way.
You'd almost think that thetechnology would start out in
college and then make its way tothe Major League Baseball. But
in this case, it was theopposite. Well, it happened
John Hankins (30:36):
at the same time.
Actually, there's anothercompany that was using wrist
watches, and at the same time,we were introduced in MLB, and
we're kind of supplanting themnow, because people like the
audio better, although certaincoaches, they say, Well, this is
we're used to using this. Andit's like, it's only 2022, you
started using it, so yeah, butthey're traditionalists, right?
Yeah. Air quote,traditionalists, right, yeah,
(30:58):
because it's three or four yearsold? Yeah, yeah, exactly. They
also had been using walkietalkies to the catcher only.
Yeah. Quite the advancementthere. So on the IP side, what's
in the patent? What part of thisis protected? Obviously, you
want to make sure that you'vegot that market position
protected. And if anybody knowshow to do that, it's a patent
attorney. What part of this isprotected? Well, we're about to
(31:20):
get our fifth patent. So theidea of having stored audio in
an audio that you will push abutton and play a remote track,
it's quite broad. It's quite agood patent. I have, yeah, lots
of applications for that. Iwould think, yeah. I was very
pleased about that. We also havepatents on the data collection.
We're working on a patent on thecommand data. We now have
(31:42):
wristwatch I told you, likethey've been using wristwatches
where the tracks are stored onthe wristwatch, or display
tracks. So that one's we expectto come out soon be issued. So
we're trying to cover the wholegamut, absolutely and
Matt Kirchner (31:57):
protecting all that, obviously super important
in so many differentapplications outside of just
Major League Baseball. You know,I'm a football fan. That's
probably not surprising. A GreenBay Packers fan. You think about
Jordan, love checking the playson his forearm, and since all
applications, they're preventingfalse starts or off size
penalties for football, allthose applications, I'm a huge
cycling fan, and we've had raceradio and cycling for as long as
(32:20):
I can remember, quite some timeto be able to send information
back and forth between cyclingteams and team cars and so on.
What are some of the othernations you're a golf fan? I
mean, are there otherapplications that you're working
on outside of Major LeagueBaseball? Well,
John Hankins (32:32):
for one, we're working on college baseball.
We're in Korea right now. We'rein Taiwan, we're in Mexico,
we're in Dominican Republic. Sothose baseball teams, but we're
in softball, so it's a hugething. It's a number three sport
in ESPN, wow. I didn't realizethat. Well, I absolutely fast
pitch softball. It'sfascinating. I love it. Oh yeah,
(32:52):
and they're serious, and thosegirls are women, I should say,
are really good. I didn't knowabout this beforehand, and it's
like, wow. But we're nowexploring football. We've been
contacted by the CanadianFootball League, and so you are
one of our first entrees intofootball. What's
Matt Kirchner (33:08):
the application in football? Is it getting plays
into the quarterback? Or what'sthe main application there?
Well, imagine
John Hankins (33:13):
every player hearing that. No more huddles,
every player can hear it. Andwhat's really cool, every player
might only be able to hear theirassignment. So you push a
button, everybody hears onlytheir assignment. So now wide
receivers don't have to listento all the other stuff and just
figure out their route. Yeah,
Matt Kirchner (33:30):
and then all the decoding that has to happen in
their brain between the huddleand getting lined up for the
play, all that, all that becomesautomatic.
John Hankins (33:37):
I forget people's name as soon as I shake hands
with them, and so I can'timagine, like huddles, but now
no more huddles, and also thequarterback make an audible at
the line using a smalltransmitter, and everybody hears
it without having to scream andshout and wave his hand. Yeah,
Matt Kirchner (33:52):
no more crowd noise on third down, screwing up
the offensive play, becauseeverybody got it right, right at
the line of scrimmage, huh?
Right? Yeah. Just fascinating,any other applications that
occur to you or that you'reworking on that our audience
should know about sure, likescuba diving, you can't talk
during scuba diving, but youmight want to, if you have
something underneath your maskor whatever you could hear it,
that would be anything nursing.
(34:15):
So like a nurse walks around andthey could get a buzzer, some
that tells them to come butwouldn't it be better to know
what is needed so someone couldpush a button that says, I need
medicine for sure, and it justto change lives in a positive
way and make somebody's job moreefficient, easier, more
effective, what have you?
Certainly there's a tremendousamount of fulfillment that comes
from that tremendous amount offulfillment that comes from
(34:38):
being an entrepreneur, frombeing an innovator. And then as
much as we've got a lot ofeducators and a lot of students
that listen to this podcast,John, if you've got some
thoughts or advice on somebody'sgot a great idea, and in your
particular case, obviously onethat has gone a long, long way.
What advice do you have tosomebody, whether it's a student
or an educator who's trying.
(34:59):
That student or has an idea oftheir own about turning ideas
into reality? Well,
John Hankins (35:04):
I'd say, first of all, I've been a patent
attorney, so you see a lot ofstuff, but the people who really
come up with the ideas are theones who are well steeped in the
technology, well steeped in theindustry. They know it. People
who come up with an idea, oh,for an automobile, there are a
lot of automobile engineers tocome up with a new like cover or
(35:26):
something, or a new thing thatsits in your car to hold your
cup holder. No, don't do thatstuff. But first, learn
everything there is to knowabout the industry you want to
innovate in. Knowledge is huge.
And I think that's like numberone, because if you know what
you're doing, then you know whatnot to do. You know what's tried
before, and then be open tofailure and be nimble. So what
(35:46):
happened? And this is a really,I mean, it's a true story. We
started with bone conducting,where we had bone conduct, which
is what, specifically you'veused that term a few times, just
to make sure everybody knowswhat that is. So bone conducting
is where you have, like, alittle vibrator that goes next
to your temples. And rather thanplay a speaker, a sound, audible
sound, you can, like, replicateit by putting your fingers in
(36:10):
your ears and talking. You canhear yourself inside your head,
and it's pretty cool. But theproblem is, we discovered it
wasn't loud enough, and to makeit loud enough, it would have
rattled somebody's skull, but itwas very sexy sounding. So we
had originally sounded, youknow, because we were worried
about anybody else hearing it,so bone conducting guaranteed
that no one else could hear it.
(36:32):
Well, it turned out the problemwasn't trying to keep it low
enough, it was making it loudenough, because in MLB stadiums,
it's hugely loud. So we hadapproached MLB with this bone
conducting idea, and they triedit. That was our prototype. So
now we realize that it justwasn't going to be loud enough,
because we've got to overcome120 decibels, which is like a
(36:52):
jet engine sometimes, wow. Andthe bone conducting problem
would have gone out to like 8085so we changed it, but it was a
huge decision on our part,because we had kind of sold MLB
on this bone conducting stuff,and so instead, now we're doing
a speaker. Do we do that or not?
You know, how clean do we cometo them? And so we did. We told
them this was, you know, aproblem, not a problem, but we
(37:14):
switched to speaker, and it wasfine, no issues, because it
works. But the story is beingable to change, be able to move
off of what you're doing. Andthe last thing I would say is,
it's huge. It's collaboration. Icouldn't have done this by
myself. Everybody wants to bethe sole Thomas Edison, by the
way, who worked with a lot ofpeople and failed a lot of
times, too, by the way, yes,exactly. What do you think? Like
(37:37):
1000 times? But the last one wasthe one
Matt Kirchner (37:41):
that, yeah, we found 9999 ways not to invent
the electric light bulb. I thinkwas what his line was. Yeah,
John Hankins (37:47):
right. But I worked with this guy, Craig full
of said he, I want to shout himout. He's just absolutely
incredible to work with. He's myco owner and partner. But I knew
it would work, because I knowhim, and I knew that I built on
work that he had done already,and that's the best thing, too.
Build on other people's work.
Don't copy it, but build on it.
And that's how patents work. Youall work, you know, and on the
(38:10):
shoulders of giants without
Matt Kirchner (38:12):
a doubt. So pick something you know is certainly
really, really good advice inyour particular case, being
fascinated and being a baseballfan didn't hurt. But pick
something that you know. Ifyou're going to innovate in that
space, don't do something thateverybody else is into. Really,
really hard to be successful, beopen to failure, and make sure
that you're collaborating withthe right people. All really,
really good advice for ourbudding entrepreneurs, as far as
(38:33):
thinking innovatively, and, youknow, you think about, you've
got really cool technology inthe, you know, kind of the magic
space, and then you're bringingthat into major league baseball,
in terms of bringing innovativeideas across different
disciplines. Do you have thoughtthoughts on that? Sean,
John Hankins (38:48):
yeah. And you know what? It comes from, magic,
actually. So magicians walk intoa store, whether it's staples or
just looks online, when you seesomething, you say, Well, how
can I use this? How can I foolsomeone with this. And there was
a great guy who did a wholemagic show based upon stuff he
found in a coffee shop withSwift sticks and packets of
(39:09):
sugar and everything else. Hetook the things that were there
and decided, What can I do withthese? But like with equipment,
devices, any kind of engineeringstuff, think about your
discipline, whatever you want tocreate, and then be open to
looking at things and saying,How can I use this in what I'm
doing?
Matt Kirchner (39:25):
Take the comment and find a way to make it
uncommon. Take common things,find ways to use them from an
innovative standpoint. Really,really good advice for our
students and for our educatorsthat are training them and
preparing them for whatevercomes next. Speaking of that
education pathway, and we allhave our own version of it,
whether we finished high school,went direct to the workforce,
went into the military, we wentto a technical or community
(39:46):
college, went on to a four yearuniversity, all great options
for our young people in terms ofyour education pathway. I'm sure
there's a couple things that youpicked up along the way where
you're like, This is somethingthat's that's somewhat unique to
me, that I have a pull. If thatI have the world of education,
or the education system here inthe United States, that you
think that nobody else does,what would that be?
John Hankins (40:07):
What I discovered for me was reading everything. I
read history, I read science, Iread physics, I read novels, I
read newspapers every day. Andyou get ideas from everywhere.
You pick up ideas onadvertising. You pick up ideas
on marketing, you know, Ibusiness strategies and
electronics, I read everything,and I I've been doing that since
(40:29):
I was in college or even beforethat. Really, I'm
Matt Kirchner (40:32):
the same way, for what that's worth. I, you know,
I do a ton of public speakingkeynote, a lot of events and so
on. And I actually had aninteresting invitation a couple
weeks ago. Somebody said, Willyou come and speak to our group
about how you prepare a greatbusiness speech. Hey, first of
all, I was flattered thatsomebody would think that I
would know how to do that, butapparently they do. But from
there, one of the things that'sgoing to be in that speech is,
I'm a big believer. And pickyour topic and then let the
(40:53):
ideas come to you. Don't golooking for the ideas. In other
words, if you try to sit downand write, I do a lot of writing
as well. Try and sit down andwrite the next best business
magazine column. That's reallyhard, if I think of a topic, and
then just let the examples andthe ideas come to me over the
course of a couple weeks, andthe column almost writes itself,
and I'm hearing kind of the samething that a lot of the ideas
(41:14):
and the innovation and thedifferent ways of looking at
things just come from reading awide variety of different
sources. We've got time for onelast question for John Hankins,
as we're wrapping up our timewith him here on The TechEd
Podcast. And that is this, John,I want you to travel back in
time. I assume when you were 15,you were a Yankees fan at that
age as well, but you're a 15year old young man. You're a
(41:35):
sophomore in high school. If youcould go back in that, back in
time, John, and tell that 15year old young man one thing,
what piece of advice would youoffer to him?
John Hankins (41:44):
What I would say is, this is, and I wish I had
done this better, which was tokeep my friends close. In other
words, keep all my contactstogether. Because you meet a lot
of people throughout life,whether it's in high school,
colleges. I mean, I've certainlykept in touch with many of my
friends from even grade school.
But you know, everybody you'veever been in touch with can
somehow help you shape you doall sorts of things and
(42:08):
establish connections. That's sohuge. Like my partner, Craig, I
had just worked with him. He wasmy magic supplier. But we were,
you know, became closer, andthen because of who we did, and
I did work for him for free. Sothat's the other thing, is be
giving. And then when the timecame, I said, Do you want to try
something with me? He trustedme. We knew each other. That was
(42:30):
it. Otherwise I would not bedoing this. I would not be in
the position I am. So you neverknow when a connection is going
to be important. And the reasonwe got into MLB was because of a
golf connection. Nice, yeah, whowould have guessed right? Right?
You don't know. So it'simportant, but I wish I had done
more of that when I was 15 andkeeping in touch. And nowadays
(42:51):
it's so much easier to do that,you know, send text and stuff
back then I had to write on anotepad and send, send a letter,
right?
Matt Kirchner (43:01):
Or call someone long distance or whatever,
right? I mean, this is, oh, mygod, yeah, exactly, absolutely
no. That's really good advice.
And we've, we've asked thatquestion to hundreds of guests,
that's the first time to believeabout keeping contacts from
early in life and along thejourney close and really
important. Yeah, I'm like, usesome of my best friends now. Are
guys that I went to grade schoolwith, in some cases, middle
school and so on. But there's alot of folks you know, for as
(43:24):
many as I've stayed in touchwith, there's a lot more that
I've lost touch with. So Sokeeping track of that and really
being intentional aboutmaintaining those relationships,
super, super important. I'm gladwe had the opportunity to make
contact with each other. John onthis particular episode of The
TechEd Podcast, obviously, beinga baseball fan, being a
technology fan, and loving toget to know entrepreneurs. This
has been a lot of fun for me.
(43:45):
You're doing some really, reallycool stuff. I know it's been as
great for our audience. Sothanks for being with us. Thank
you, Matt. Good luck to yourbrewers this year. Yeah, we're
looking forward. It's, you know,this is our year. I think this
is the Brewers year. Ourmanager, God, manager the year
last year. So we were proud ofthat really outperformed over
the course of the season. Sofigures Cross for another
successful Brewer season. We'llhave another successful up with
(44:07):
a TechEd podcast next week.
Until then, please check out ourshow notes. We have the best
show notes in the business. Youwill find those at TechEd
podcast.com/hankin sets. TechEdpodcast.com/h A, N, K, I, N, S,
check us out on social media. Weare on x we are on Facebook, we
are on Instagram. You'll find uson LinkedIn, wherever you
(44:29):
consume your social media, youwill find The TechEd Podcast.
Come look us up. Leave acomment, let us know you're out
there. We would love to hearfrom you, and looking forward to
seeing everybody back nextweek's episode of The TechEd
Podcast. Thanks for being withus. You.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.