Technical Colleges: Breaking Generational Poverty and Building Economic Mobility - Dr. Anthony Cruz, President of MATC - The TechEd Podcast

Episode Transcript
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TechEd Podcast Introductio (00:10):
This is the TechEd podcast, where we
feature leaders who are shaping,innovating and disrupting
technical education and theworkforce. These are the stories
of organizations leading thecharge to change education, to
rethink the workforce and toembrace emerging technology.
You'll find us here everyTuesday on our mission to secure
the American Dream for the nextgeneration of STEM and workforce

(00:33):
talent. And now here's yourhost, Matt Kirchner,

Matt Kirchner (00:38):
welcome into this week's episode of The TechEd
podcast, as I do so many timeshere on the podcast, I want to
begin with a really short story.
And this goes back a long time.
I was in my late teens. I spentthe first six years of my
working life, at least in thesummertime, as a lifeguard in
Milwaukee County, and part ofwhat we had to do as a lifeguard

(00:59):
and for our training was,believe it or not, 40 hours
every two years of first aidtraining, and it took place at
Milwaukee Area TechnicalCollege. So that was my
introduction to our guestsinstitution, the one that he
leads. We'll get into his introin just a moment, but I had such
an eye opening experience asyou're walking back, and the
course that we took was in theway back of the campus. And so

(01:21):
you would go through all thesedifferent programs, CNC
programs, public safetyprograms, nursing programs and
so on, all the way back to ourour first aid program, and it
was really my first eye openingexperience when I was probably
1718, years old or so of theincredible value that our
Technical and Community Collegeshere in the United States, and
specific to my home state ofWisconsin, our technical

(01:43):
colleges add to our economy andadd to our way of life. There's
so many things that we take forgranted that we would never
realize have their roots in ourtechnical colleges. So I'm a
huge fan of the amazing workthat happens in and around
Technical and Community Collegesall over the United States of
America. It's a real honor, andI mean that genuinely, to

(02:03):
welcome to the studio the TechEdpodcast, the president of that
institution, Dr Anthony Cruz,president of MATC, Milwaukee
Area Technical College. Dr Cruz,what a pleasure and an honor to
have you here. Thanks for comingin.

Anthony Cruz (02:16):
Oh, thank you so much. It's my pleasure to be
here with you today. Reallyappreciate the opportunity.

Yeah, absolutely, an incredible background. By the
way. You're a first generationcollege student. I understand
college graduate parents camefrom to the United States, from
Cuba, which is going to befascinating in and of itself,
and worked in factories which Ilove, that somebody that you
know was in, you know,manufacturing for 2530 years
that is, in so many ways, thefabric and the life blood of our

(02:42):
economy here in the UnitedStates. So I would love to hear
you reflect a little bit on howthat background, parents, who
are immigrants, worked in andaround manufacturing. How does
all that background and thatfamily dynamic lead you to a
technical college today andinfluence the work you're

doing definitely influences everything I do in my
life, right? My parents are abig part of who I am today. Came
to this country in the early 60sfrom Cuba and didn't know well.
My My mother came in 61 and mydad came right after the Cuban
Missile Crisis. So they cameseparately. They weren't they
didn't know each other, so theyactually met in Chicago. So one

(03:20):
before right, one right afterthe missile crisis, they both
moved to Miami, and thenultimately, right, like, maybe
within six months, moved toChicago separately, two
families, and then they met inChicago, got married after three
months of knowing each other.
Yeah, exactly, yeah, sure, yeah.
So I think, for me, means a lot.
I mean, their story is, asimmigrants coming to this

(03:43):
country with nothing and knowingthe language, there's a lot of
humility and a lot of hard workthat went into what they've done
in their lives. They're still,they're still very well living
in Florida, and that reallyimpacted me in the sense of even
my leadership, you know, in theway that I lead with, hopefully,
I lead with humility and try todo a very hard work, you know,

(04:06):
to get things done. And inhigher ed a lot of times, you
know, we think about the ivorytower, right? And people like up
on this place where nobody knowswhat they're thinking and maybe
they're out of touch with what'shappening. And I really believe
that in order to be effectivehigher education leaders and to
be the things that we do for ourcommunity, we really need to
meet people where they are. AndI think that's what technical

(04:27):
colleges do. That's one thingthat I try to focus on, whether
it be working directly with ourfaculty and staff, meeting our
students, trying to understandwhere they're coming from, what
their needs are. And a lot ofthat comes from the importance
that my parents put oneducation. You know, for me, one
of the things they invested inme was the education that I have
today. A lot of I went toprivate Catholic school for most

(04:50):
of my early years, and for them,that was very important. And so
that investment in me today, Ihope that I can share. That
investment with others. We havea lot of first generation
college students at the college.
We have a lot of students thatare trying to make the best out
of their lives and try to help,you know, change a cycle of
poverty that is a part of them.
And hopefully we can provide theeducation through

(05:13):
apprenticeships, internships,and then eventually jobs in
industry that will give them theopportunity that my parents got
through working in factories andmaking a living wage and being
able to buy their first home andright and be able to send me to
private school. You know, theywere never wealthy, or I
wouldn't even say they were justmiddle class, working, middle
class individuals that were ableto take the the opportunities

(05:36):
that were given to them and thenmake something of it. And then
give me those opportunities tothen have be have, you know,
have the opportunity to be herewith you right this podcast
today and talk about what'shappening in higher education in
Milwaukee,

absolutely. And then really living out the
American dream as your as yourparents did, as you're doing. So
you said they worked inmanufacturing. Tell me a little
bit more more about that. Do youremember what kind, or know what
kind of, what kind of, what kindof manufacturing they were

involved with. My dad worked at a plant that
manufactured a post electricaltransformer, Transformers. Yeah,
working transformers, right? Sothe manufacturer of transformers
in Chicago,

awesome. It wasn't SNC electric. It was, I
know my manufacturers, they'restill around. They are indeed,
yep,

back then, you know, he talks really great
about that company, because itwas a family. It was, I think, a
privately held company very wellrun and very felt like at home,
like they treated theiremployees very, very well. My
mother worked at a place wherethey built pianos, okay, and so
that's that was a lot of herwork that she did, and she did a
lot of like, hand manual work onsanding and doing things, things

(06:42):
like that. So they both, I thinkthe great thing about that is
that while they had theseexperiences, it really afforded
them an opportunity to have thatliving wage right and be able to
make it. They understood that.
But, you know, at the same time,they always, while they
appreciated those opportunities,they always instilled in me that
I needed to go to college,because they saw the managers
and the administration at thoseat those factories, and they

(07:06):
said, I want you to be the guythat wears a tie, you know, that
walks around, right? So, so thatwas like, the thing that they
always instilled in me is theimportance of higher education.
Even though they weren't, theydidn't have the higher
education, but they wanted me tohave that opportunity. And I
think in a

lot of ways, the world of manufacturing and
manufacturing, and manufacturingleadership has evolved to a
point where, you know, where itprobably wasn't the case, and I
could say for sure it wasn'talways the case. And there was,
in those days, a, you know,there are the workers, and
they're the managers andleaders, and every once in a
while, you could jump from oneend to the other. I think credit
to manufacturing that looks alot different now, where we're

(07:40):
looking at how you bring inentry level people, and then
lifelong learning, continuingeducation, and for someone that
has both a desire and anaptitude for growing in a
manufacturing organization,really the sky's the limit in so
many cases today. But back tothe story of your parents,
incredible credit, and what kindof flowed through, I think both

(08:01):
of those last two answers isthis whole idea of commitment,
right? Whether it's, I mean, youmentioned that they're still
alive and well in Florida today,you know, doing a little bit of
math, if they, if they came tothe US in the early 60s. I mean,
that's, that's a marriage thathas lasted a long, long time,
over 60 years. Yeah, exactlyafter meeting each other after
three months. What an incrediblecommitment your parents have to

(08:21):
each other to you and saying, wewant the absolute best for our
son, and we're going to makesacrifices, and we're going to
show him a path to now beingpresident of an incredible
institution like MATC. I knowyou're also just we mentioned
students, insanely committed tostudents, and in fact, your
mantra for MATC is studentsfirst. I love that. I think so
often in education, we forgetabout that, right? That really,

(08:43):
you know, we've got students onone end of the equation and
we've got employers andopportunities and jobs or
whatever comes next on the otherand incredible value from both
those stakeholders in as much aswe're super focused on taking
care of our team, taking care offaculty, staff, anybody else
that's part of this experience,keeping students right out in
front really, really important.
So talk about that commitment,why that's so important to you,

(09:04):
ultimately.

And we can look at higher education as a business
or not a business. And sometimesindividuals in higher education
don't like to talk about highereducation as a business, right,
as an industry, right? But weare right, and our students are
customers. And for me, somebodythat's been in higher education
for over 30 years, I know thatwithout students, right, we
wouldn't have our institutionand our students come to us from

(09:28):
all walks of life and reallylooking for an opportunity. And
then so when we haveconversations at the college,
whether it be at the executiveleadership team or it be another
venue, any venue at the college,I want to make sure that the
conversations happen and arearound students right. What
student needs are what thestudent experience is, and

(09:48):
that's how we get to theneverything else. And obviously,
we need our employees. We needour staff, we need our faculty.
They're very important. We needto support them. But ultimately.
Are. They're there to educate,to educate and support, because
we have people who are educatingin the classroom. We also have
individuals that are outside ofthe classroom that are providing
the support students need to besuccessful. So both of those are

(10:11):
critical, but we know thatstudents are at the center of
what we do, and so we have tocontinue to think that way. How
is this going to impact ourstudents? Right and and just as
important it is to have thatfocus, we know that the
relationships that we built inthe community, with our industry
partners, with our communitypartners and others, is also
going to be very important toour students. So so it's not

(10:32):
just about what's happeninginternally within our walls, but
it's also about what thoseopportunities are outside of our
walls and how and for me, it'svery important to build those
relationships. So our students,again, are getting the
opportunities that they need. Imean, do we have, you know, do
they have the apprenticeshipopportunities that they need? Do
they have those internships orthose jobs that really will pay

(10:53):
that family sustaining wage thathas to do with, again, thinking
about students again, we, theseare our partners, but we're
doing it because of thestudents. For sure, everything
is about, for me, is about thestudents. If we don't have, if
enrollment dips significantly,like it did during the pandemic,
that has a tremendous impact,not only on our bottom line as

(11:13):
an institution financially, butit also has an impact on the
community, because that meansthat fewer people are getting
the opportunity to get theeducation that need in order to
get the jobs that they need tosustain their families

exactly right, and we've seen the impact of
that. And you know, post covidin a lot of cases, I mean, the
the acute need on the workforceside, in a lot of ways, was was
fueled by, you know, lowerenrollment, and, you know, a
variety of educationalinstitutions that took place
through through covid. It's beeninteresting for me, as someone
involved quite, quite frequentlywith technical and community

(11:45):
colleges that most of them thatwe work with are seeing rising
enrollment, which is super,super exciting, and at a time,
by the way, where Democratdemographics aren't exactly
supporting, you know that trend,right? I mean, if we look at the
enrollment cliff, I think it wascalled, I think it was called, I
don't know if we're supposed touse that word anymore, but yeah,

(12:05):
oh, the in, oh 809, when youknow, some of the economic
troubles hit the United States,parents were having fewer kids,
and now all those kids are, youknow, 17, 1819, at their at that
age, where it's like, All right,do I go direct to workforce? Do
I go into the military? Do I goto a technical college to a
community college? Do I go to auniversity? And whatever that,
you know, whatever those optionsare, there's fewer of those

(12:26):
students making those decisions.
So to be talking aboutenrollment rising at a time when
this, you know, when this familyof people that potentially could
be coming into a technicalcollege isn't as big as it used
to be, that really sayssomething about the focus on the
students. And I, I like the wayyou tied that all together. You
know, we get into these debatessometimes, and I think they're
kind of false debates about, youknow, do we exist for the
employers, or do we exist forthe students? Or, as I've heard

(12:47):
it put, is it a job for everystudent or a student for every
job? And my answer is alwaysyes, you know, we got to figure
out how to do both of these. Butto your point, if you focus on
students and their futures andlooking them in the eye and
saying, Look, if you want, ifyou go through this certificate
program, if you earn thisAssociate degree, there's a job
for you waiting on the otherside, or a future for you. And
really, in my mind, the AmericanDream waiting for you on the

(13:09):
other side of that. And they getto the end of that, and there's
no job or opportunity. We justreally took an advantage of that
student. So it's that's

not the reason we're here, right, right? We're
here to educate, but because wewant to make sure that we're
aligned with industry and thejobs that are out there, I think
the great thing about thetechnical colleges is that while
we do serve that 17 or 18 yearold that's coming right out of
high school going into college,we also serve so many people
that have either never gone tocollege or coming back to

(13:37):
college in order to retool so weour average age is 29 so that
means that while the enrollmentCliff issue is a big one and a
real one for a lot of four yearcolleges and universities that
highly depend on that 17 or 18year old to fill the seats,
sure, we also are fortunate tohave so many individuals that

(13:58):
come to us at all stages oftheir Life, right, looking for
opportunity and coming back. Andwe know that, even though
there's been a lot of talk inthe media and a lot of things
about the value of highereducation, the value of
technical education is probablybigger today than 100% right?
And people know that it'stangible. They can go in,
whether it be a certificate,diploma or two year degree come

(14:21):
out and get a job that you can'tsay that about a lot of other
degrees, right, that are outthere. And so that makes us, I
think, pretty special. And andeven, and I've worked at
multiple institutions, othercommunity college, you know, two
year colleges, communitycolleges, but technical colleges
specifically are very specialbecause they not only bring in,

(14:42):
we offer associate degreeprograms for students to go
transfer, but we also have a lotof opportunities for the trades
and manufacturing and otherareas where students can come in
and go right into the world ofwork after they've completed
their credential with us. Sothat makes us, I would say,
really something that that I'd.
About what I absolutely

want. I'm glad you pointed a couple things out
there. First of all, is, and Ishould have mentioned as well,
the average age of most of thesecolleges. You're right, isn't,
aren't you know, certainlyyou've got younger people coming
in, and we want to attractpeople to technical colleges.
There's no question. But really,the environmental, lifelong
learning and the opportunity tohave on ramps and off ramps into
and out of education to use yourword word to retool as

(15:24):
technology changes, as theeconomy changes. You know, all
these things that take place andthat we're able to do through
our Technical College is super,super important. And also the
distinction, as you put it in,sometimes we lump Technical and
Community Colleges together, andhere in the state of Wisconsin,
the focus on Technical College,technical skills and the
understanding that you know thatthere's just great, great jobs

(15:45):
waiting for people on the otherside of this education pathway
is really, really important. Andagain, all of that going back to
students and focusing onstudents. And as we were
preparing for this episode, weread a little bit about coffee
with Cruz, yeah, I absolutelylove that, and that was one of
the very first things you didafter becoming president, we
should mention just last year.
So just in 2024 correct? InJuly? Yeah, July of 2024 so
we're just over, just over ayear, yeah, so in pouring coffee

(16:08):
and speaking directly withstudents, right? So it's one
thing to sit in a studio likethis and say, hey students,
first, that's awesome. It'sanother thing to be, you know,
living and practicing what youpreach, and so getting right out
in front of students and facultyas well. Tell me about the kind
of things you learn reallysitting down one on one with
whether it's somebody that'sdelivering learning in the
classroom or in a lab, or thestudents that are receiving that

(16:29):
learning. Why is that kind ofone on one conversation and
connection so

important? Well, it gives me a much better
perspective as to what's reallyhappening. We can read a lot
about what's happening in highereducation, right? And there's a
lot of great information outthere, and people can tell me
what's happening as well at thecollege, but I want to hear it
for myself. And so I just cameright now from our MEC one
campus, yeah, we just had acoffee with Cruz, sure, sure.
And so we started that up againthis fall, and we do that in the

(16:57):
fall, in the spring we I, so Igo to each of our campuses and
have that opportunity to talk toour students and faculty and
staff. And sometimes I do learnthings about what's happening at
the college, like, you know,they have needs, you know,
they'll tell me like, Hey, howcome? You know, the cafeteria is
not open at this time, or weneed, you know, this lab that we
had before, and what happened tothat lab? And sometimes I don't

(17:19):
know at that moment what happensthe lab, but I will find out
what what happened to the lab,and is there an alternative to
that lab that they can be using?
And so it gives me that, youknow, that face to face and that
first front line type ofperspective, right as to what's
going on. And again, same thingwith faculty and staff. It works
because when we do something,you know, when that issue comes

(17:40):
up, I have some perspective,like, Yeah, I had a faculty
member, or a few faculty membersthat have talked to me about
this as an issue, and maybe Ididn't even think it was an
issue, but, you know, they'relooking at it from their
perspective, how it impactsthem, and now they're sharing
that with me. So then it makesme a better decision maker,
right? We talk about making datainformed decisions. We can look
at it as you know, things thatare on a sheet of paper. That is

(18:02):
data, but there's also just thatin that data that we collect by
having conversations. And youknow, it's more, much more
qualitative in nature, butnonetheless, it's just as
important to get thatinformation and understand what
people are thinking

totally. You get the facial expression behind it,
you get the emotion behind it.
And you know what we say,whether it's in the businesses
that we're involved with, withor otherwise, is, look, we're
not going to be able to solveevery problem, but, but we'll
always listen, right? And we'llsolve as many as we can. And
also, by the way, if, if we hearthis from one person, that's one
data point, you know, if we hearit from 10 people, it's like,

(18:36):
Huh? Maybe this is somethingthat we need to look a little
bit more deeply into it. Yeah,and what I find is that
oftentimes, just theopportunity, whether it's a
student sharing a concern, or afaculty member or member of
staff that's that's sharingsomething that's bothering them,
just the ability to unload thatand know that they've been heard
makes a huge difference. Sothat's so one of the great

(18:57):
things I think, that you broughtto the MATC district is this
interested in spending timelistening to students, spending
time listening to faculty andstaff reacting and solving
problems, when and where you canyou've worked a lot of places. I
mean, we talked about you spentsome time in St Louis, you spent
some time in Ohio, lots of timein Florida. Spent your early
years in the Chicago area. Nowyou're here at MATC in a city

(19:20):
like Milwaukee. Talk a bit aboutwhere you think innovation and
technical education is here atMATC, and what aspects of that
drew you to this region where,by the way, it is. You know,
we're about two months away fromwintertime. And I know the
winners in Don't remind me,please, yeah, winners in
Wisconsin, they're not quite thewinners like the winners in

(19:41):
Miami or a lot of places in thecountry, right? Not even like in
St Louis or since be clear aboutthat, there's a

difference. Well, I think, you know, what drew me
here, first and foremost, wasthe, you know, I really wanted
to come to an organization, acollege that had multiple
campuses, and I and. And eachcampus has really like its own
flavor, right? And almost itsown culture in some ways. Yeah.
I mean, you go from campus tocampus, and there's differences,
so I really was drawn to that,and drawn to having an

(20:10):
opportunity to lead a largerdistrict what I've learned. And
one of the things that whatmakes us really strong as a
technical college system isactually the Wisconsin federal
college system, the systemitself, right? System, the 16
colleges are so strong, and weare so collaborative, and that's
what really makes us verydifferent from even other places

(20:31):
where I've worked, in otherstates, where it's really been
kind of like a battle of betweeninstitutions. Here, we really
work together. We have apresident's Association for the
system. We actually had thesystem office which the
President,

she was here about, I don't know, probably
three months ago

or so I saw that.
So, yeah, so Atlanta is amazing,and so she leads the system and
but there's a lot ofcollaboration there, you know?
And we work together when wewhen we work on issues that are
facing the colleges. We go toMadison together, even though,
even we may do it individually,but collectively, meaning that
we're we have the same message.
Absolutely, we have the samemessage. When we're looking for

(21:10):
more, more, more funding, wehave the same message. There
have been other places whereeverybody's scrambling and
fighting, and it's Hunger Games,right? It's not the Hunger Games
here, and so that I really lovethat, and awesome. Then the
collaboration we have with thePresidents as well. I mean, it's
great that we help each otherout when there's something that
we don't understand, orsomething an obstacle that we're
facing as an institution. Hey,are you facing the same thing?

(21:32):
What's going on over there? Andwe're in all different parts of
the state, very different partsof the state, but nonetheless,
we're serving students, andwe're serving communities,
right? And we're servingindustry, so it's great to have
that, and that has, I think,reinforced, you know, my reason
for coming here is like havingthat type of collaborative, type
of of system that really workstogether to really making it

(21:55):
just stronger all together.
Yeah, sure, it's one thing thatmakes us, I think, again, use
the word special, right,specialized as a system and for
this and the way that we workfor the state, yeah, agree 100%

and you know, it's interesting, because I've
been, I've been interactingfollowing my manufacturing days
and getting on the educationside now, 10 years ago, and I
would say even since then. Imean turning back 10 years, the
there was always collaborationamong our technical colleges.
And by the way, the system inthe state of Wisconsin is not a
centralized system, right? Soevery college has its own board.
All the programs have theiradvisory boards. There's a State

(22:29):
System office that has someinfluence, but can't call you up
and tell you what to do correct,you know, for and there's other
states that are totallydifferent. I spent time down in
Indiana, and you know, thepresident there, who, for a
number of years, was Dr Sueosperman. She's, I think,
recently retired. But at anyrate, I mean, they could, they,
you know, they turn, tell thisship to turn, and the entire
state of Indiana turns. That's,you know, that's not the way it

(22:51):
works in Wisconsin. I thinkthere's benefits and drawbacks
to both models, but the one wehave here, tremendous amounts of
independence at the individualcollege levels. And I would tell
you, at least in my perception,10 years ago, there was still a
degree of collaboration. But itisn't what it is today. And
today, you see, I was at marinepark yesterday, with, with, with
Bonnie bearwald, traveling withPaul Carlson from LTC next week.

(23:14):
I was with rich Barnhouse lastweek from from Waukesha County
Technical College. And I'm goingto a gateway event tonight,
Gateway Technical College. So,so lots of engagement with the
technical colleges here in thestate of Wisconsin. And somebody
said, I think it was Dr Carlson,actually, that said to me that
we're now at a point inWisconsin where more than half
of the college presidents camefrom outside the state. That's
correct, yeah, which is, whichis interesting. And I think if

(23:36):
you had asked me 10 years ago,is that a good thing or a bad
thing, I might have shrugged myshoulders, and, you know, no, no
offense to President companysaid, I don't know. I mean,
maybe we should be promotingpeople from Wisconsin, I think
in a lot of ways, that has addedto collaboration. And maybe some
of the we were, we were talkingbefore about the before we went
on about the vitriol, or atleast the battle between the

(23:57):
Chicago Cubs and the MilwaukeeBrewers, right? And some of that
territorial stuff that maybeexisted 10 years ago. I think we
see less of that. And I thinkthere's that there's tremendous
positive influence as a resultof that. Are there certain areas
in which you think the collegesare, you know, particularly
collaborative, and advancementsthat you're seeing now that, you
know, maybe some of thatterritorial conflict, for lack

(24:20):
of a better term, it hasdissipated, and now it's a more
collaborative approach. I think,you

know, things like dual enrollment is a big deal to
all of us, so we're all on thesame page. There students
getting getting college creditwhile they're in high school,
right? And how is that funded?
How can we work with the stateon making sure that that's
funded even at the higher level.
So there's there'll be morestudents, and I think that
benefits all students across thestate, rural, suburban, urban,

(24:48):
doesn't matter. Dual enrollmentis an amazing opportunity for
our high school students Totallyagree to start getting college
credits. I think that just ingeneral, like looking at
transferability of credit,right? Is very important as well
to us, because we want to makesure if our students are coming
to our institutions, that ifthey decide that they want to
transfer to a university, thatthey'll be able to transfer as

(25:09):
many credits, probably,hopefully, all credits, to that
institution, and be able to thencut down on their expenses, on
the time that they'll have totake extra credits. So we
continuously work on that kindof to talk about it. How can we
make this better? And many ofour institutions have worked
specifically with with ourinstitutions that are like UW m
here, right, like our regionaluniversities that are in our

(25:31):
areas. But I think that there'sa bigger question here in
Wisconsin, whether we can makethis, you know, something where
it is more global when it comesto transferability of credit
from the from the technicalcolleges to the universities,
even between the universitysometimes that's been an issue.
So those are two topics. I mean,it's about how we can serve our

(25:52):
students better and how we canserve our communities better.
And there those, those are justtwo examples of of of issues
that can help all students inWisconsin, yeah, and all our
students that are going to thetechnical colleges in Wisconsin,
absolutely

one. And I mean, I love that the idea of, you
know, credit transfer ability,creating I like the term on
ramps, on off ramp,stackability. You know, so many
conversations that we got intoseveral years ago were about,
well, yeah, you know, if youtake this course in high school,
it counts to, you know, as threecredits toward, you know, the
University of Wisconsin, fill inthe blank for such and such a

(26:29):
Tech College. And then it'slike, okay, but to To what
degree program? Well, you know,it'll count as a gen ed or, you
know, and it's like, we callthem credits to nowhere. You
know, it's great to have dualcredit, but if, just, if you're
telling a student in highschool, if you take this course,
it's going to count toward acollege degree. And a college
degree, and they get there, andit doesn't, it's like you've
just, you've just kind of rippedoff the time of that, of that
student. So I love the theadvancements that are happening

(26:50):
there. I want to talk a littlebit Dr Cruz about the MATC
district itself, and for people,again, I don't want to get too
wonky, but I mean, if you thinkabout here in the state of
Wisconsin, I'm gonna go out onthe limb and your say, your
district probably includes the,you know, the wealthiest and
highest net per capita netincome areas in the entire
state. I know for a fact that itincludes some of the most

(27:13):
poverty stricken areas in theentire state. Reflect on that a
little bit. And you know,economic diversity would be part
of that. You know, separate fromthat would be cultural and
racial diversity. I mean, youhave, I believe, the most
diverse college in the entirestate of Wisconsin, but it is
the

most diverse, and it is one of the most diverse in
the entire Midwest.
Interestingly, yeah, chat, GPTfacts, but we are the largest
nonprofit technical college inthe country. Wow, really, it was
that by student or student,number of students, because it's
amazing, because there's a,yeah, you know, there are some
for profit that are in differentplaces in the country, right? If

(27:50):
you add those up, you know, someof them will be more than 30,000
students, but right now, weserve about 31,000 students a
year. And so, yeah, that's,that's a, just shows you like
the impact, or whatever.

Well, that honestly. I mean, I should have
known that, but that surprisesme. And you think about
enrollment at even theUniversity of Wisconsin,
Milwaukee, or the University ofWisconsin Madison, which you
think of as these hugeinstitutions of higher
education, and you're right inthat same neighborhood. Wow,
that's really, really amazing.
So, so talking about, was thatpart of what drew you here, or
was that part of what's when youcame as part

of it, I think that, I think the first think
that, I think diversity was, waspart of it. Came from a very
diverse part of the country, inMiami. So I think that what did
draw me here? I think thatthere's that, you know, there. I
think that's a strength,definitely. And then there's
also challenges that we face,right? So we we face, you know,
challenges in the sense of like,and I mentioned this before,

(28:43):
multi generational, orgenerational poverty, you know,
that exists in Milwaukee, right?
And so we're we feel as aninstitution, that we have an
obligation to be an engine ofeconomic mobility, right? For
students, making sure studentsare getting the education they
need, and get them then into theworkforce and get that family
sustaining wage. But I thinkthat's a great thing to have.

(29:04):
The diversity we have. Again,financial need is one thing. So
we have an amazing foundation,MATC foundation, that works very
diligently on trying to increasethe scholarships that we offer
to our students. Years ago, mypredecessor, Dr Martin,
instituted the Promise program.
But we also have all differentkinds of scholarships that we

(29:26):
put into place in the lastseveral years. And that's
something that's very important,because we have so many first
generation college students, somany students that have
financial need, and for a firstgeneration college student, need
also, we've put in, in the lastseveral years, support systems
for those students, right? So wehave things like, we just don't
have academic advisors. We alsohave retention coaches that we
put in the last five years. Ithink it was been five years

(29:48):
that we've had the retentioncoaches now, and so putting
different layers of support forstudents, and this is for all
students, but students arecoming in first generation,
trying to, you know, getacclimated, to understand what
college is about. So havingmultiple layers of of help is
really important again, inaddition to the scholarships, we
have food pantries on each ofour campuses. Have counseling

(30:08):
services. We have a lot ofdifferent supports that we
didn't have, let's say, 20 yearsago, given the diversity of our
students and both economic,racial, cultural, everything the
different, I think those are allgreat things. We just have to be
very cognizant of making surethat we're addressing the needs
of students that so it ischallenging. It's not easy,

(30:28):
sure, challenging, but I thinkit's a great challenge for us,
because ultimately, it's aboutthat economic mobility. How do
we get to that economic mobilityfor everyone? And to do that, we
need to meet the needs what theyhave now, while they're in
college, all those things, allthe support services, in
addition to having reallyamazing faculty in the
classroom, then lead to somebodygetting that credential, then

(30:50):
that gets them that economicmobility,

especially in a city like Milwaukee, you
mentioned generational poverty,I've seen that firsthand, and
it's, it's heartbreaking, right?
I think about the world in whichI grew up in and having, having
the blessings of, you know,parents who set a great example
kind of showed me what it wasto, you know, to work hard, to
aspire to something better. Youknow, had any had examples for
me in my life of all right, thisactually happens for people. And

(31:13):
if you're not surrounded bypeople who've had that same
benefit, you're really startingat A, almost an intellectual
disadvantage, not not in termsof intelligence, but just in
terms of, you know, emotionallyunderstanding what's what's
available

and possible. You don't have the social capital,
right? The social capital is socritical and not that we can
kind of replace all of that,right? But we definitely try to
fill the holes and try to makesure that we give students the
help they need. Because one ofthe things that students, a lot
of students, face is like a lackof grit. I think we're born with
grit. I believe that we canenhance our grit and nurture it,

(31:49):
but somebody has to nurture it,right, and help you nurture it.
And so we need to continue towork with our students to to
nurture that grit, to increasegrit for our students, because
that's what's going to get themfrom semester to semester. To
semester, year to year, and thenfinally getting into the
workforce. It's not easy again,that's not but it's just it's
being intentional, trying tothink about that as something

(32:11):
that we need to do, like youmentioned, it's not anything
about intellectual capacity,because we have a lot of
brilliant students that come tous, that come again, with
different academic backgrounds,different academic preparation,
and we're trying to get them tothe point where we can really
tap into their intellectualcapacity, yes, and get them to

(32:31):
that next level. And I thinkthat we can do it. And some
people, you know, you know, theywill say, well, that's not even
possible, or whatever, that'sreally difficult. Yeah, I'm not
saying it's easy. Yeah, it'sdefinitely worth trying. We have
to try because, because thecommunity is, at least, from my
point of view, the community isdepending on us, sure as an
institution to be able to dothat. Because you can go to many
institutions of higher educationcountry, 1000s of them, and some

(32:55):
of them are very selective, andsome of them are really amazing,
and many of them, most areamazing. But we're meeting
students where they are, andthat doesn't happen at every
institution, but being atechnical college in Wisconsin
gives us that opportunity.

And we mentioned the community and the value
providing there. But you know, Ithink about it in terms of
individuals, and every singleindividual that you can put on a
path that they wouldn'totherwise have been on, that's
that's transformational, that'slife changing and really, really
important. I

just want to highlight one thing, you know,
so we also have a program thatwe had now for three years. We
have the jakota scholars. So Joejacota, Ellen and Joe jacoda
have been amazing donors for thecollege. They've given the
college over $5 million over thelast couple years, and other
people have matched, you know,their donations. And last three
years, we've used about $8million in Dakota scholarships

(33:43):
to basically help students getthrough one year programs. These
are one year diploma programsthat will give them a living or
family sustaining wage uponcompletion. So 1200 students
have completed this program andhave been their lives have
changed absolutely because ofthat. In it, because it's not
only about giving them tuition,it's not only giving them books,

(34:05):
it's also giving them foodvouchers. It's giving them maybe
a place to live. It's helpingthem with daycare. It's really
an all in type of scholarshipthat has really had a huge
impact on 1200 students right,in only three years. And that's
the kind of thing that we wouldlike to see. More of those

(34:28):
things are getting individualsto where they'd like to get to,
which most of them come to usbecause they want to change, you
know, and transform their lives.

Well, you think about the exponential power of
that, right? Yes, their life isgoing to be way better. We're
also helping to solve for aworkforce problem in and around
all kinds of different economicareas in the city of Milwaukee.
So now they've got skilled teammembers. Now you have people
that are earning, you know, afamily supporting rate wage,
that maybe already have kids orare having kids. And those,

(34:56):
those young people, are growingup in a different environment
than they might otherwise have.
Growing up in those people thatare earning those wages, that
money doesn't sit in their bankaccount, right? They're spending
that

money over the economy, yeah, that investment,
which, in some of thesestudents, is maybe a $10,000
investment yields, like, thinkabout it, life check, right?
Well, the payback is moneybecause, yeah, because now
you're talking about, you know,you know, somebody coming out
making $55,000 a year, right?
Yeah, where they were, they mayhave been working a job where
they were making 20 something$1,000 a year. Now they more

(35:27):
than doubled their annual incomeand put them on a road that will
not only change, like you hadmentioned, not only changes
their lives, but that changesthe lives of the few people who
depend on them, or just theirfamily in general.

And does it in one year, and does it in a way
that you know, a lot of thosefolks probably don't have
$10,000 or maybe can, or can'tborrow $10,000 to even have that
opportunity, and so now you'vejust absolutely accelerated that
individual's life. So credit toyou for that. I want to credit
you with one other thing, whichI think is really kind of
fascinating as we've had thisconversation. I know I knew your

(36:00):
predecessor, Vicki Martin, youreferenced a couple times. Hey,
I didn't start this but, but theprevious leadership did, and
it's a good idea, and we've keptit going. And I can't tell you
how many times I've been in andaround higher education where a
new leader comes in and changeseverything. And if something
that was happening was a badidea, they changed that. And if
something was happening was areally good idea, they changed

(36:21):
that too, because it has to betheir agenda. And the fact that
you're both forward thinkingenough and humble enough to say,
look, if something's workingreally, really well, let's let's
just make that even better. Wedon't need to start this all
over. Have you been told thatbefore? And is that kind of part
of your philosophy in terms ofleadership? I

don't think everybody's told me that before,
to be honest, but, but I feelthat I really try to analyze
things when I first came in andstart looking at things, and
I've been about a year, and Ihave a good sense of what's
working and what's not. And Ihave a feeling that if I can
determine that something'sworking right, we're gonna
continue it. It's like, it'slike, and I can build on it.

(36:58):
Even the promise where, rightnow, we're looking at making
some adjustments that promise toactually make it a little bit
more like the criteria, a littlebit wider. So it's like more
students can, can, can takeadvantage of it, because I think
a little bit restrictive rightnow, I think that we can do
that, but that opens up theopportunity for donors to say,
hey, if we open it up, thatmeans that we're going to give

(37:19):
more money to students, whichmeans we will need more money in
order, through our foundation,in order to fund that right? And
there are some things that we'llbe looking at in the future that
will be will be changed, but Ithink that there is so much that
has been going on that's goingreally well, and I want to make
sure that those things continue,and then we'll tweak those

(37:40):
things as needed, and then therewill be new things that come
about that will be brand new,that will really make a whole
lot of difference as well. I'mreally big in into I won't go
into specifics, but it's likeabout the partnerships that we
have with our businesses. And Iwant to see more of that. I want
to see something more around howwe provide internships to
students earlier in their intheir inner college careers, so

(38:04):
they can taste what it is to bein that particular industry. And
at most four year collegeuniversities, you have that
experience at the end of thefour years. And there are a lot
of robust types of internshipsthat industry that offer to
students when they're coming outof four year. I want to see if
we can, you know, kind ofdisrupt that a bit in the sense

(38:24):
that, how can we work withindustry and with businesses to
do more on the front end?
Because I did some things inFlorida with micro internships
and early in the studentscareer, to give them the taste
of what it is to be in that inthat career. So then that way
they can have more of anincentive to continue, rather
than putting it at the end. Andin our case, we're looking at

(38:46):
two years, right at most yourdegrees, but I think that we can
do that at the front end. Sobusinesses here in Milwaukee, as
I start to approach them aboutsomething related to that, it's
important for them to keep anopen mind about our students,
because I've already talked to,you know, I talked, you know,
I've been talking to a lot ofemployers and individuals, you

(39:07):
know, throughout the last year,a lot of it, and I get to
internships. They're like, Yeah,we have an internship. I go. So
who do you know? Who goes? I'llgo. Well, seniors, well, seniors
at four year colleges, yeah, ifyou take anybody from two years.
No like. Well, why not like? Andin some of these jobs, I'm
telling you, they're notnecessarily in the trades there.
These are maybe in in finance,you know, some, some other area.

(39:29):
And I'm thinking, you know, ourstudents could do this after two
years. They could do this. Imean, if you require and that's
another thing that you know,it's happening right now in
industry. Industry is lookingand businesses are looking at
the four year degree is notnecessarily. Shouldn't be a
requirement for every type ofposition that you have. If you
have the right training and youhave the right aptitude and you
have the right attitude, yeah,you should be able to give

(39:50):
people that opportunity. So Iwant, I want our businesses to
kind of open, a little bit moreopen minded about about
students. A technical colleges,a two year colleges, what they
can offer, because I think theycan offer a whole lot, and they
could come in, they can comeinto the organizations. Maybe
they don't come at the samelevel, but they can come into
that organization and learn andand, you know, and do some

(40:12):
really great stuff. But I thinkthat internships are, I really,
I'm a big believer in, like,experiential learning, right?
And whether it beapprenticeships or internships
and externships, and I believethat there are opportunities for
our students to if we can getmore of that, the better. But
it's it's hard, because onething that I noticed when I was
in Florida was that the largerthe larger corporations, like,

(40:34):
I'm talking about, likewhatever, let's say your fortune
100 or whatever. Yeah, it's hardto get them to enter into these
types of agreements, right?
Because they have very largelylegal teams and things like
that. I did a lot of work withsmall businesses, and small
business owners directly, moreflexible, more they know what
their needs are, and they lookat an MOU that it's very simple,

(40:57):
and say, I could do that. I cansign it's not gonna cost me
anything. And yeah, sounds likea great opportunity,

right? Yeah, for sure. So yeah, a couple things
on that. First of all, I wouldthink that the business
community would be eager forthat, given the right value
proposition, right? So you startto think about, what's the value
of a student understanding whatthey love and don't love at the
beginning of their educationpathway, as opposed to at the
end? Huge value there, right? Sowe're not investing, it's like,
it's like, you know, investingin a in a process, in a

(41:22):
manufacturing operation. But youknow, if we have an issue on on
stage one, and we're addingvalue to that the whole way, to
find out that we have somethingwe can't use on the other end,
you know, and not, not tocompare a student to a
manufactured product, but, youknow, but the analogy goes that
if we can figure out early on,yes, I love this, or maybe this
wasn't the best thing for me.
That's that's good foreverybody, that's really good
for the student, that's good forthe college, that's good for the

(41:44):
community. And then you start tothink about building these
relationships with studentsearly in their path. I mean,
when people, a lot of times, wehear from people, well, you
know, we don't, we're notgetting enough students from the
technical colleges. And well,maybe that's true. Part of that
is that somebody else is gettingthose students, and it's the
people that are really, reallyengaged with the college. I will
tell you in one of our ed techcompanies, we had a different
college in Wisconsin, but we hada technical college student,

(42:06):
Jordan Zachariah, was her name,who worked in our business early
in her early in her collegepathway, and was awesome, added
tremendous value and learned aton about the business she was
getting into. Will also tell youit occurs to me as we're having
this conversation, our veryfirst audio engineer on the
TechEd podcast came to us whileher name is Grace caster, while
she was an MATC student, andactually early in her, in her

(42:29):
program, in her, herbroadcasting and audio
engineering program. I'm notgetting that program exactly
right, but that was what she wasstudying. And did a tremendous
job, phenomenal job. She's doingsome other things, but, but got
her once they got her once theygot her start, but certainly got
some great, great experienceright here on the podcast. So I
can attest to the fact, asyou're talking to employers,
play this episode back, and MattKirkner will say, there's huge,

(42:49):
huge value. There's huge, hugevalue in having those students
start early. I think that's areally, really innovative
approach. Speaking ofinnovation, let's talk a little
bit about AI. Let's talk aboutautomation. All of that is
reshaping industries. It's alsogonna, you know, this technology
is gonna reshape the collegeexperience, both for faculty and
staff and for students. So youcan't get through a conversation

(43:10):
anymore without talking aboutartificial intelligence. Hit on
a little bit. And I know you'vebeen, you've been a leader on
this, and you've been actuallyquite an advocate for engaging
and using artificialintelligence across your
programs. Talk about how that'sgoing to transform the technical
college experience and ourability in the manner in which
we deliver education?

Yeah, it's, it's changing every day, right? And
that's, that's the, I think thebiggest challenge, right? You
could say five years, 10 years.
I think that, how about oneyear? Right? You know what's
going to happen in the next fewyears. And can we, I think the
biggest challenge we have as aTechnical College is, how can we
evolve? Can we change meet thoseneeds quick enough, right? I
think we're, I think, as aninstitution, and as it's two

(43:49):
year colleges, I think we'revery flexible, but at the same
time, are we willing, or are weable to actually meet the
challenge that we're faced withtoday? And we know that so many
different professions, careersare changing because of AI, and
we see that even now, in thenews, just the last few days,
how many 1000s of jobs righthave been headlined in the Wall
Street Journal yesterday,whatever? I don't know we want

(44:11):
to call it, but I mean, at leastfor right now, they've been
lost. Yeah, it doesn't getexactly disrupted, for sure, by
AI. So, so how quickly can weadapt? And one thing that I
think is critical is that whenwe look at our programs, all our
programs, whether it be tradesor, you know, other academic
programs, he's like, how can weintegrate AI into those
programs? So then our students,it's not about having an AI

(44:33):
program, necessarily. Andnothing wrong with that either,
but, but there's we don't needthose students to be aI experts,
but to know how AI works intheir exact field, and so that's
the challenge that we have.
We're working on that, and we'retrying to see how we can, you
know, improve on that, I think,but it's just moving very, very
quickly, and in higher edusually, even though I believe

(44:55):
that we are very flexible andare pretty swift on our feet.
Right? I still think that we're,I don't know if we can be swift
enough, right, within how thisis all changing so rapidly.

In the past, we said that, you know, higher
education transformed oneretirement at a time, right? And
I heard somebody say, one deathat a time. I thought that was a
little bit dark, so I don't usethat one a little bit better,
right? But, but I think you'reright. I think if we wait for
entire generations of teammembers to turn over, we're
going to miss this opportunity.

Yeah, so we're going to have to, we're going to
have to look at finding moreindividuals or thought leaders,
and employing those individualsinternally that will help us
kind of reshape this right, andreshape it quickly enough, and
reshape it in a way that is notseen as a threat, because,
again, anytime you changethings, and we've done things
something, and some programshave been done for a long time

(45:48):
in a certain same, similar way,yeah, I think we want to do it
in a way that's not going to bethreatening. But nonetheless, I
feel like it's something thathas to happen. It does for us to
not just, I don't say, survive,I don't think that that. I think
it's more about that we're doingthe right thing for our students
right at the end. You know,students first. So if we're not
in this, what's going to happenwhen that student graduates and

(46:08):
then goes into, you know,industry and then and finds
themselves like, what? What isthis exactly?

Yeah, they're gonna be threatened now, or
they're going to be threatenedwhen they get to the workforce.
You'd rather have them workthrough that threat now and make
sure that they're prepared. Ithink absolutely so. Speaking of
being prepared, I'm prepared toask you two more questions, and
I feel like I've asked youanother 100, but, but, but we're
limited on time for better orworse, and so want to make sure
I'm being respectful of yours.
Two questions that I think wecan finish the podcast off with

(46:35):
here. They're questions we lovehearing from our from our guests
and and we ask every single oneof our guests these, these two
questions. The first one is, isthere something we haven't
talked about already abouteducation? Everybody has their
own path through education.
You've been in and around it,you know, your whole life and
your career. Is there somethingthat you believe Dr cruise about

(46:57):
education that would surpriseother people.

It's a great question, maybe people, and
maybe it's about this thing,about change, right? And I think
that you talked about before,about that change, whether or
not higher ed is open to change,or people maybe have a
preconceived notion that thathigher ed is not one that will
change. And I think that's notnecessarily true. I think, I
think we definitely don't moveat the speed of a business,

(47:22):
right? But I think that we domove, and we do make changes,
and we are innovative. It's justthat we do it in a maybe a
little bit different speed,right? One thing that I try to
do in the organizations that I'min, and because I've worked also
in the private sector, is try toinstill in people a little bit
different frame of referencewhen it comes to making change

(47:42):
again, people are a lot of timesthreatened by change, and I
think that one of the thingsthat I tell individuals is that,
and I tell people to collegeright now, that our biggest
enemy is the status quo, yes,and we have to continue to
change and transform in order toreally keep up with everything.
Won't necessarily happen at theat the speed of like people
would want, but I think it'sstill happening Absolutely. And

(48:03):
I think that that may be alittle bit something that people
don't think that's happening,but it maybe happens a little
bit slower, but alsoindividuals, you know, it
depends on who is the leader.
Could help a lot in trying tomove things along a little bit
faster. And I don't want to beagain. I think disruption is a
good thing, positive purpose,purpose, and I think that I want

(48:24):
to continue to be disruptive,and try to make sure that
individuals know that if we aredisruptive for a good purpose,
right, we'll get good thingshappening. And the status quo
continues to be our enemy when

we say right in the intro to the podcast every
week that we have conversationswith leaders who are disrupting
education, and so that, youknow, you wouldn't be here if we
didn't see you as a, as a, as adisruptor. So so certainly
appreciate that aspect of it. Ithink the other thing that it's
important for employers tounderstand, you know, I came
from a small to medium sizedmanufacturing world where you
could make a decision Monday,implement it on Wednesday, and
see the results on Friday, andfeel like, Why can't education

(48:58):
move faster? And it's like,well, there's certain guardrails
in the, you know, especially inpublic education that doesn't
exist in the rest of the world,or at least in the world that
we're from, and you have to berespectful of that right over
there for a reason. And there'sprocess and and some people
would call it bureaucracy, andsometimes that's the case, but a
lot of times it's just nothere's really thoughtful
processes and procedures that wehave to go through to make sure
that the disruption that we doengage in is well thought out

(49:21):
and well prescribed. So I thinkit's important for people to
recognize that. But I doappreciate the, you know, the
philosophy and the spirit ofdisruption taking place at MATC
on an ongoing basis. I want togo back now one last question.
You're a 15 year old young man,I'm guessing at that point, were
you in Chicago? You're in Miami.
So yeah, that's right. Firstnine years in Chicago, so six
years after you moved to Miamior 15 year old man, sophomore in

(49:44):
high school, give or take. Andif you could go back to that one
individual and give them onepiece of advice, what would that
be?

I think patience, yeah. And I'm gonna give you a
little bit more on that. Somaybe my 15 year old self, they
wouldn't know this. But I thinkthat even if you were looked. At
my if I even looked at 15 yearsago. So in my career, I always
thought that, you know, I alwayswanted to climb the ladder, but
not just for financial reasons,but I thought, well, the higher
I go in higher education, themore impact I will have on that

(50:14):
organization, right? And I thinkthat's true, but, but I would
say that the higher you go up,the more you see the landscape,
the more you see what's goingon, right? And you find that
it's not as easy, right? So youneed that patience, yeah. So you
don't, you see, you don't, youdon't realize the things other
people don't see them. Like,I'll just say this, I was an

(50:34):
advisor at one time, right? Anacademic advisor. As an academic
advisor, I would look up to thePresident and say, you know, I
didn't, never said to thepresident, but I would think,
you know, it's like, I was like,why don't you just change this?
Yeah, why don't just change it?
Exactly, change it. You have thepower to change it. But when you
sit in this seat as president,and you look around and there
are so many competing interestsand so many people and in

(50:55):
organizations with agendas, notthat easy to make change, right?
You know, even though you wantto make change, but there are
certain things that just you gotto be able to be patient, right?
Doesn't mean that you're goingto take your time and that you
want to have the patience toknow when's the right time, yep,
to make certain decisions and todo certain things, because there

(51:15):
are, it's much more complicated.
So the higher you this is onething I would say, like, the
higher you go, right, the moreyou see the complexity.
Absolutely you don't see thecomplexity at a certain level.
But at the higher I've been, thehigher, you know, every every
step of the rung of the ladderthat I have climbed I've been in
every rung of the ladder inhigher ed, yeah, right, the

(51:36):
complexity has just increasedand and I see more, right? And
exactly more then it becomesmore complicated, more complex.
And that's why you have to bepatient in the sense of how and
when you make certain decisions.
And doesn't mean that you waitfor it, but you got to know when
there's the right time to dothings. I think that patience is
really important and not to rushit, because then, then when you

(51:57):
rush it, you miss, you may misssomething that is very
important.

It's almost a blessing and a curse, right? So,
you know, I get to be apresident. I can do whatever I
want the further up or whateverdirection we want to talk about
that you move in anorganization. Yes, you have more
freedom to make decisions. Youhave way more influence to steer
the ship, but you have equallyincreased obligations,
commitments and results thataren't always positive. If you

(52:24):
just do whatever you want, youknow some of those consequences.
Yeah, you see more opportunity.
You also see more consequences,balancing those two super, super
important. Really, glad we hadthis out and had this
opportunity, Dr Cruz, to havethis conversation. Super, super
interesting. The work you'redoing at MATC, really, really
impressive. So thanks forjoining us. Well,

Matt, it's been a pleasure, and thank you for
having me on the podcast. Andyou know, I love what I do and
and that's why I do it. Great

conversation that we had with Dr Anthony Cruz, and
can't thank him enough fortaking time. We would invite
everyone to check out the shownotes, a handful of things that
were referenced. We'll linkthose up in the show notes.
We'll put those at TechEdpodcast.com/cruise that's TechEd
podcast.com/c r, u, Z, asalways, check us out on social
media. We are on Instagram, weare on Facebook, we are on

(53:12):
LinkedIn. We are everywhere youconsume your social media,
including Tech Talk, by the way.
So when you see that, reach out,smash that like button for our
producer, she loves it when Isay that, and don't forget to
steer us again next week on theTechEd podcast, thank you so
much for being with us. You.

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Technical Colleges: Breaking Generational Poverty and Building Economic Mobility - Dr. Anthony Cruz, President of MATC

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Technical Colleges: Breaking Generational Poverty and Building Economic Mobility - Dr. Anthony Cruz, President of MATC