February 11, 2025 • 45 mins
What does it take to be a true pioneer in artificial intelligence education?
The Milwaukee School of Engineering (MSOE) didn’t just see AI coming—they got out in front of it. Dr. John Walz, President of MSOE, joins The TechEd Podcast to discuss how his institution became one of the first in the nation to offer a baccalaureate degree in AI and how it continues to lead in engineering, computing, and applied AI technology.
MSOE’s AI degree isn’t just about theory—it’s about application. Students get hands-on experience with Rosie, the university’s supercomputer, tackling real-world projects in machine learning, computer vision, and AI-driven problem-solving. With deep ties to industry leaders like NVIDIA and a thriving AI Club that has grown into MSOE’s largest student organization, the university is shaping a new generation of engineers who know how to apply AI to fields like healthcare, manufacturing, and finance.
Listen to learn:
- How MSOE launched the one of the first undergraduate AI degrees in just 4 months—by staying agile and industry-driven
- Why Rosie the Supercomputer has processed over 150,000 AI jobs, from optimizing race cars to predicting global food shortages
- How MSOE’s AI Club grew to 200+ members, bringing AI beyond computer science into business, nursing, and engineering
- Why MSOE appointed a Director of Applied AI Education & how they're embedding AI into academics, student success, and university operations
- How MSOE’s partnership with NVIDIA and Dwight Diercks is giving students hands-on experience with real-world AI applications
3 Big Takeaways from this Episode:
- Agility is key to staying ahead in AI education. MSOE launched its AI degree in just four months by listening to industry needs, leveraging existing strengths, and moving quickly—showing that institutions willing to adapt can lead in emerging fields.
- Applied learning makes AI education more impactful. Giving students hands-on experience with real-world projects—like MSOE’s use of Rosie the Supercomputer and interdisciplinary AI applications—ensures graduates are job-ready and valuable to employers.
- AI should be embedded across the entire institution. Beyond coursework, AI can enhance university operations, student success, and recruitment. A dedicated leader, like MSOE’s Director of Applied AI Education, can drive institution-wide integration
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Matt Kirchner (00:00):
Matt, welcome into The TechEd Podcast. It is
(00:10):
Matt Kirchner, and it is anotherweek talking about higher
education in this case, but alsoabout artificial intelligence,
which is a topic that comes upregularly on The TechEd Podcast,
however, not often with somebodywho's been an absolute pioneer
in the world of artificialintelligence education. I can
say that about today's guest. Heis an individual who has been so
(00:32):
far out in front he and his teamon AI working on talking about
artificial intelligence beforemany of us even knew it was a
thing. So we're going to talkabout that. We're going to talk
about what it's like to lead aniconic engineering and technical
university in the form of theMilwaukee School of Engineering,
and we are doing that with thatorganization's president. His
(00:55):
name is Dr John walls. I'vegotten to know him over the
course of the last year,fascinating, brilliant person.
So proud and happy to have youin person in the studio here at
The TechEd Podcast. John,
John Walz (01:07):
thanks for being with us. Thank you, Matt. I
appreciate the comments. Thankyou absolutely. And
Matt Kirchner (01:10):
I meet every one of them. I mean, we think about
being early, early on and anearly adopter of artificial
intelligence learning in thefield of higher education, and
you just can't say enough aboutthe leadership position that Ms
OE has had in that regard. Youjoined Carnegie Mellon, a pretty
good, pretty good company,right?
John Walz (01:27):
Yeah, I went to grad school as well as a special
meeting for me,
Matt Kirchner (01:32):
absolutely. So join them. Join them as one of
the first two universities inthe nation to offer an
undergraduate degree focused onartificial intelligence. So tell
us a little bit about that. Whatdid you say? That. What did you
see in this market? John, thatnobody else was seeing at the
time you started
John Walz (01:46):
this. So what we we had is, I describe it as a mix,
a great mix of opportunity meetsneed. And a lot of our corporate
partners at the time weretelling us we would like MS, we
to offer a degree in computerscience. We did not have a
computer science degree. We hadsomething called software
engineering, which is a littlebit different, but somewhat
(02:07):
related, but not computerscience. Pretty much around the
same time, we had thismagnificent opportunity
presented to us by Dwightderricks and his wife, Diane, to
provide a building to us and asuper computer, which is great
for artificial intelligencework. And that is when we said,
we can do something distinctivehere. We can make a computer
(02:28):
science degree, not a vanillacomputer science degree, but one
that is focused on artificialintelligence. So that is when
students come out, they knowthat, and that's what we decided
to do, and that has been anenormous success, and so we
could have done it anyway, butwhat Dwight did for us, it would
have been that much harder todo. Just to get that level of
(02:49):
resources from US has made adifference, but we could also
meet the needs of our industrialpartners at the same time. And
we're
Matt Kirchner (02:55):
going to get into the whole partnership with
Dwight Dirks and his wife,Diane, and the great things that
they're doing for for thebenefit of your students, for
the benefit of our communityhere in southeast Wisconsin,
before we do that, though, Johnwould be curious to know this as
you're getting this thing stoodup, as you're you have this
incredible vision. What is thetrick to getting so far ahead of
everybody else? I
John Walz (03:14):
think there are three things that happen. Number one,
like we said, we had this greatgift from Dwight and his wife,
Diane, that gave us the machine.
That gave us some building. Wehad a software engineering
degree so, and like I said,there are some similarities
there. So we didn't have to goout and hire a dozen new
faculty. We had people thatcould start teaching the courses
while we hire. We did have to dosome hiring, sure. And the other
(03:35):
advantage is, there's a certainadvantage to being a small
private school, you can benimble, right? And I've worked
nothing against large publicschools. I've worked with them,
but we could basically envisiona computer science degree, a new
degree, and get it approved andget it ready within four months.
And that being small and privateallowed us to do that. So all of
(03:58):
those things came together andallow us to get out ahead of
this stuff.
Matt Kirchner (04:03):
And as somebody who spends a lot of time in
higher education and eveninnovating, you know, in a
public setting, in a largeuniversity, sometimes even in a
private university, you know,can take years. I mean, you
think about some of the thingsthat happen to get whether we're
creating a new degree programand maybe different state
universities arguing about whogets to have that, how we're
going to get it funded, youknow, in some cases, even going
(04:25):
to a Board of Regents on astatewide basis, these kind of
things. And here you are in thisyou say, you say small private
university, number of studentsat MSO we so if you
John Walz (04:34):
count everybody we graduate, we have some, mainly
undergraduate, some graduates,I'd say 2700 2800 that's pretty
much where we are,
Matt Kirchner (04:41):
absolutely and allows you to be incredibly
nimble. I can tell is somebodythat's been involved with MSO we
for several decades. As a matterof fact, first of all, very,
very nimble, very, veryflexible, incredibly responsible
to your corporate citizens andyour partners, in a way that I
think a lot of times in highereducation, not that that gets
lost, but you tend to sort. Of alot of different masters, if you
will, in your particular case,so responsive to the needs of
(05:04):
your your corporate partners,which is really, really
important. As you stand up thisdegree program, you create these
opportunities for your students.
Now we've got a lot of folks inhigher education, whether it's
technical community colleges,universities, you know, graduate
programs, PhD programs and soon, trying to figure out what to
teach when it comes toartificial intelligence. So
let's talk about that. If I'm astudent, that's part of this
program, what specifically am Ilearning? Yeah,
John Walz (05:28):
so one of the distinctive things about MSO we
and it was that way, since wewere founded in 1903 it's, it's
an application focused degree.
Our students learn by doing. Sowith all of our degrees, our
students probably spend moretime in laboratories and hands
on work than you will find atany other type of institution,
but they still have to know thefundamentals. Right. If you're
(05:49):
going to use and be a computerscience graduate with a focus in
AI, you have to understand whatAI and machine learning is. But
what sets us apart is it's theapplication of it. Not simply
know what it is, but how do Iuse it? So our students in all
of their classes, how do I takethat tool and apply it to
different areas, what it can dowith it? And that's really what
(06:11):
sets our graduates apart, andwhy companies love to hire from
MS OE, because when they comeout, they're like, they're ready
to go. They know how to usethat.
Matt Kirchner (06:20):
So it's certainly the theory, it's the coding,
it's the programming, but moreimportant, it's like, okay, what
am I going to do with this nowthat I know it? We talk so often
about what I call the edge tocloud continuum, this whole idea
that we've got smart sensors anddevices on the edge, we've got
cloud computing, and then thatcontinuum really repeats itself
over and over, whether it's oursmartphone, whether it's
manufacturing, healthcare,defense, retail, hospitality,
(06:43):
every single market space hasthese applications for
artificial intelligence. And soas I'm hearing, your students
are learning not just the theorybehind it, not just the
technical side of AI, which isimportant. But then how am I
going to apply this in themarketplace, which makes them
incredibly valuable to yourcorporate partners? Correct?
Exactly,
John Walz (07:00):
right. And we see that with the number of
companies, not a type ofcompanies that are hiring our
students. It's just gettingstudents in that area in
particular, you know, they'renot just going to, you know,
maybe you're traditional, theones that you would think of
that's going to hire computerscience graduates or students
with that we're seeingmanufacturing companies, we're
seeing healthcare companies,we're seeing construction
companies, financial servicescompanies, all need people with
(07:23):
that skill, and I think that'sgoing to continue to grow. It's
really a great market for thesestudents, whether they want to
stay here in Wisconsin, which isgreat, or sometimes, you know,
the appeal of going off to thecoast is there a bit as well.
And I'm like, go for it, right?
Absolutely,
Matt Kirchner (07:37):
our big believers and show them the world, but
show them what's here as well,and let them make the best
possible decision forthemselves, in terms of making
great decisions, even specificto your students, as I think you
know, I know several of yourvice presidents, Eric and Saj
are both both great friends,yeah. And both of them have
talked to me about studentsgoing off and kind of starting
their own AI club. Is thatsomething that that should be?
John Walz (07:59):
Yeah. So we, a group of our students, got together a
few years ago and formed an AIclub. Yeah, it is open to any
student, right? Not justcomputer science majors. It's it
is has over 200 members. It isthe largest club at our
university that didn't existfive or six years ago. And it's
really to do things people thathave an interest in this field.
(08:20):
They work on projects together.
They meet. They just do some ofthem do research for the
faculty. So that is really oneof the things that we're very
excited about. Is interest inthat field is really broadening
beyond just the computer folks,right? It's the other engineers
we love, eventually, to get ournursing students, our business
students, more involved thanthat. So the AI Club is a very
significant club on our campus,and that's
Matt Kirchner (08:44):
that's when you know you're hitting the right
spot, when the students take itupon themselves to create this
opportunity, when you know we'vegot probably, maybe, a certain
paradigm about data science,computer programmers, those
students, and then opening it upbeyond that to a it's not just
about the coding and theprogramming, it's all these
applications. It's in everysingle market space. In as much
(09:05):
as your school is the MilwaukeeSchool of Engineering. It's not
just engineers, as you touchedon, right? What are their
academic programs or students?
John Walz (09:11):
That is correct? So we're about 80% engineering,
okay? 10% business, 10% nursing,and in engineering, you know,
computer science, constructionmanagement, I kind of lump all
those in together, but all thatfocus. But I named beliza A
little bit. We're not strictlyan engineering school. We're as
saj. You mentioned Saj sometimeshe says, Milwaukee School of
more than just engineering. Ilove that term, right? A
Unknown (09:33):
little bit too many letters to stick into the MSO
doesn't work on a sweatshirtvery well. Exactly right?
Matt Kirchner (09:39):
You're recruiting students into the programs,
obviously the academic rigor,the opportunity for, you know,
for a really lively campus life,the opportunity to join clubs
like the AI club, and then whatcomes after undergraduate
education, as you're recruitingstudents and talking about the
career programs andopportunities, particularly the
flow out of this AI world. Youtouched on some of them. You
(10:01):
talked about finance, you talkedabout healthcare. Yeah, wait,
what's the message to thosestudents? Where can they go with
John Walz (10:05):
a degree like this?
They can go almost anywhere now.
And if it's not there now, itwill be in the future. I mean,
this is a field that it is thetransformative technology. It is
what digital computers were, youknow, when we were in school,
when I was in school, and thecomputers came out, I think it's
just getting adopted more andmore by a broader range of
companies. But like I said,Well, you know what we're seeing
now is every type of industrythat typically recruits students
(10:30):
will be recruiting people whohave that skill. One of our
goals is that it's not just thecomputer scientists who know how
to use that. We'd love to beable to get to the point that,
yes, my degree is in electricalengineering, but I know how to
use AI. My degree is in civilengineering, but I know how to
use AI, because I thinkeventually that's what company
is going to want, even innursing, right? I mean, the idea
(10:51):
that you have a nursing studentor business person who says,
Yes, I know the fundamentals,but I can apply that technology
to my field, I think that'swhere eventually it's going to
get to the major industries.
They all recruit students fromus who know how to use that. And
I think that's going
Matt Kirchner (11:06):
to get to you.
Yeah, I think you're exactlyright. And we're seeing it, you
know, not just eventually, but Ithink we're even seeing that
now. Where, where employers. Ifwe think about here in southeast
Wisconsin, some of the greatcompanies, you know, really,
really well known companies,we've got tons of small to mid
sized businesses, but then we'vegot companies like a Harley
Davidson or C Johnson or orNorthwestern Mutual or Baird,
or, you know, one of our greathealth care providers, like
(11:26):
freighter, I mean, so many ofthese different institutions
that are looking for people thatunderstand how to apply AI. And
then we've got huge companies.
So let's talk about, maybeNvidia is a good way of getting
into our next topic. Okay, youmentioned Dwight Dirks name
earlier in the discussion. Who'sthat person? I know who it is,
but
John Walz (11:45):
okay, so Dwight is a 1990 graduate of MS OE. His
degree was in computerengineering. He started out
working for a company down inTexas called Compaq, sure. And
those of you remember compactmade the first portable computer
I had one which is about thesize of the suitcase, right?
Yeah. So portable was adifferent name then, but that's
where he started. And he workedfor them for a number of years,
(12:07):
and then he moved on. He had aanother company, but then he
ended up working with a smallstartup out in the bay area
called Nvidia. He was employeenumber 22 Wow, from Nvidia at
the time. I mean, it was notclear they were going to make it
Nvidia. Their big product wasgraphics cards for computer
games. They were a gamingcompany, right? And they could
(12:27):
do that really well, and that'swhere there's their business.
And so when, you know, when wefirst met white and when this
came on the scene, gaming wasstill their biggest product at
the time, yeah. And then at somepoint, somebody realized that
these cards, which can work sowell with computer graphics, can
also be applied to artificialintelligence and specifically a
type of it called machinelearning. And that's when the
(12:50):
world just took off for them.
And so you know, if you if youfollowed Nvidia stock, it is
just blown up. And it was reallythat discovery that these cards,
so I think they still probablyare into gaming to a degree, but
clearly this application onmachine learning and AI is
really what's driven thatcompany. So we were very
Dwight's a tremendous person. Heand his wife, Diane. He grew up
in Red Wing, Minnesota. Hisfather was a farmer. I think he
(13:13):
raised pigs, but he's a veryhumble guy, and he loves MSO we
and we're just very proud ofhim. Yeah, by
Matt Kirchner (13:21):
coincidence, the second conversation I've had
already this morning on RedWing, Minnesota, because I had a
meeting this morning with Ronwanick, who's the founder and
chairman of Ashley Furnitureindustries. I grew up in Winona.
Okay, we were talking about RedWing, so, so that's a great area
just south of Minneapolis, ofthe red cities. And what a
blessing for MS OE to be in thisrelationship with a former
(13:41):
student who's on the groundfloor of what's been the, you
know, certainly, from a marketcap standpoint, the fastest
growing company in the worldhere for the last several years,
and truly the backbone and theinfrastructure of everything and
so much that's happening inartificial intelligence, and all
the data centers are usingNvidia technology as we're as
we're just computing andprocessing tremendous amounts of
(14:05):
data. And here you've got thisformer student who's on the
ground floor in thisorganization and has done so
much for the Milwaukee School ofEngineering. Now, I was actually
in attendance when you openDwight and Diane Dirks
Computational Science Hall. Oh,really, yeah, you had a big open
house, yeah? And it was preCOVID, of course. And so we kind
of remember everything about,you know, everything in the last
(14:26):
several years, when, when ithappened, relative to COVID. But
I had the opportunity to bethere, and I was just blown
away. Oh, it was great,incredible five year
anniversary. I mean, yeah, it'shard
John Walz (14:36):
to believe it was 2019 when we opened that
building. And it was a full daycelebration. Dwight was there
with his family. Jensen Wong,the president of invisio, of
Nvidia, came by for that. Yeah,I'll tell you a little anecdote
about it. So at the end of theday, Dwight and Jensen, they're
in Derrick Hall, and they weregoing to sign autographs for the
students. And what a greatopportunity for sure. And Ms, we
(14:56):
students being who they are,what they were doing, many of
them would go back to. Theirdorm room, they would open up
their computer, they would takeout their Nvidia graphics card,
and it would bring it back andhave Dwight and Jensen sign
their Nvidia graphics card.
Jensen just loved that. So thatwas a it was a great day. Yeah,
so tell
Matt Kirchner (15:13):
us about everything that's going on
there. I mean, it's right forthe people who don't know pretty
much, right in downtownMilwaukee, just north of, kind
of the center of downtown. It'sa focal piece, a show piece, for
the marquis School ofEngineering. So tell us a little
bit about it. Yeah. So
John Walz (15:25):
it's a great building. It is the home of our
departments, of our programs incomputer science and software
engineering. It has a supercomputer in it called Rosie and
video supercomputer. It's reallythe jewel box of that. I mean,
we love that machine. It sitsbehind these big windows, behind
this big window with the nameRosie on it. Yep, it's built to
be a very student friendlybuilding. So there's a lot of
(15:47):
study space, whether a studentwants to just study on their
own, whether they want to studywith a partner. There was
whether they want to have agroup. There's little rooms that
they can reserve and go in thereand study. So it's a place that
students want to be and facultywant to be. In fact, we've had
some of our students who'vesaid, I came to you because I
really love that building, yeah,and so, and that's great for us,
and companies use it. We havecorporate events. There's a
(16:09):
company in town called sislogic, which, every year holds
their cyber security company.
They hold their meeting there.
So it's really been, it isreally a great example, in my
opinion, of what a greatfacility can do for an
institution, not just attractingstudents and faculty and staff,
but also just having industrialrelationships and supporting our
(16:30):
students. So we it's a greatbuilding. We're very proud of
it,
Matt Kirchner (16:32):
and I can attest to everything you're saying,
having spent a fair amount oftime there, number one, walking
in there huge open spaces. Itreally is when you think about
the future of higher educationand the the opportunity for
students to interact and tolearn from each other. And we're
not, you know, we're not sittingin little cubicles, nice, big,
beautiful, open area, well lit,gigantic windows on the outside.
It's really stunning. I had theopportunity last summer to serve
(16:54):
on a panel during Summer Festtech, which is something that
happens here in Wisconsin everysummer around technology. And
you hosted that particular eventat Dirks Hall as well. So just
absolutely, absolutely amazing.
And then you mentioned Rosie thesuper computer, yeah, candidate,
you can't miss it. I mean, it'sjust it is, when you think about
super computer, not just interms of processing power, but
in terms of the size of that,right? And looking through these
(17:15):
beautiful windows, tell us alittle bit more about Rosie. I
read recently that it'sprocessed 150,000
John Walz (17:22):
jobs. Yeah, that's very possible. I didn't know
that, and that's a great numberto hear. First of all, I want to
say, you know why she's namedRosie, which is a question we
get a lot. For sure, there's tworeasons. There's the formal
reason, which is, the firstcomputer programmers in this
country were women, and it wasduring World War Two, and they
were doing calculations ofmissile trajectories for the
war. And men were at the war.
And somebody wrote an articleabout that group of Rosies, like
(17:45):
Rosie the river, right? Butthese are Rosie, Rosie the
programmers. And there's animage that we have that we show
in the building of those earlyprogrammers. And so Rosie is
named in honor of those. And thesecond reason, which is not such
a formal reason, is Rosie wasthe name of Dwight's mother, ah,
so for that, and he's very proudof that. So Rosie has done a lot
of work, a lot of jobs, a lot ofit has been classroom projects.
(18:07):
And so all the students whotake, you know, courses, they're
using Rosie. The other thingthat we do, which we're very
happy about and proud is, once ayear, we run what is called the
Rosie challenge. And the Rosiechallenge is open to all
students at university, andstudents basically have to come
up with a project that they workon, and that must use Rosie to
(18:28):
solve that, okay? And Dwightcomes over every year. He's one
of the judges. He puts up allthe prizes for it, right? And it
is the NVIDIA auditorium, whichis in the building, is full, and
the finalists are presentingtheir projects, and it's really
incredible, Matt, they see thetypes of projects that the
students are doing, and they'reeverything from this group of
students. And the other thing,it's not just computer science
(18:50):
students. There are otherengineering students. They're
involved in this. And you know,one group is saying, we're going
to design reduced air frictionon a race car. Another group is
maybe looking at how to read CATscans or X rays better. There
was a great group last year thatdid a project on being able to
predict food scarcity around theworld, saying, look at different
(19:11):
things that are happening,weather patterns and all that.
And saying, hey, this countryover here, in a couple of years,
may experience a food scarcity.
So it's impressive what peopleare doing. And so those are the
types of things that Rosie isbeing used for that you could
could you do them on othercomputers, perhaps, but it would
take, you know, months, if notyears, to do that. What Rosie
(19:31):
can do very, very quickly, well.
Matt Kirchner (19:33):
And what a great testament to where AI can add
value to just human life here onthe planet Earth, right? Whether
we're talking about the racecar, that's really cool.
Improving transportation, youknow, anytime we can improve
scanning capabilities, CATscans, MRIs, whatever, whatever
it is in that particular space,solving for food scarcity,
really, you know, credit to yourstudents as well. For I'm sure
(19:53):
they're coming up with thesetypes of programs and these
types of projects on their own.
So it really kind of shows thebreadth of different
applications. Applications forartificial intelligence, the
creativity of the students whoare studying at the university,
and then to have your workjudged by Dwight. Is he the CTO?
Is he the Chief TechnologyOfficer? He's the
John Walz (20:11):
Executive Vice President of Software
Engineering, okay, at Nydia,yeah.
Matt Kirchner (20:15):
So have that individual coming in and saying
and actually doing the judgingof those students projects, and
what a great story. That'sright? And then when you're when
you're moving on, think aboutthat, when you're moving on from
the university and looking atwhat comes next in your career,
whether that's more education,whether that's going into the
workforce, being able to tell astory like that. I mean, what a
(20:37):
great message. And he loves
John Walz (20:38):
it, and he loves to put he brings the prize money,
and it's just he gets a big kick
Matt Kirchner (20:42):
out of it. Yeah.
Terrific, terrific. So talk alittle bit about any other major
highlights you see flowing outof this AI program. And I know
AI and the whole technology haschanged significantly in the
last five years. Anything elsethat that program should be
taken credit for that you wantto share with our audience, I
think what's
John Walz (20:57):
happened too, is it's expanded so much. I mean, in a
couple of ways. Number one iswe're seeing AI get to more and
more of our degree programs,especially our engineering
degree programs. We're seeingfaculty notes programs use it.
But we've also expanded theofferings that we've had. So
initially, like I said, it was aundergraduate BS degree in
computer science. We now offerundergraduate minors. We have
(21:20):
graduate degree programs, wehave a master's degree, we have
graduate certificate programs,which have been offered, and now
we're really getting intoprofessional education programs.
So, you know, it's non degreebearing. And what we realized
Matt is that there's a hugerange of understanding and
knowledge that people want. Andyou know, maybe it's a corporate
(21:40):
mid manager who says, I justwant to know what it can do and
that, and you want to havesomething for that, or someone
who's actually going to be usingit. And so we're continuing to
understand what are the needs ofour corporate partners, and what
do they want? And so theprofessional education, that's
the new biggest thing for us,and we've rolled out a number of
courses. We'll be developingmore courses than that, but so
(22:02):
we've really leveraged a wholesuite of things that we're doing
with Rosie and with AI that's
Matt Kirchner (22:06):
so exciting. And we talk a lot, you know,
certainly when we're talkingabout higher education, about
students, about their futurecareers and so on. And then you
think about somebody, I mean,you know, careers, as we all
know, can last decade upondecade. I'm well, and I guess
the fourth or fifth decade nowof my career. You go back to the
compact suitcase computer withthe keyboard that snapped on the
top, and I'm dating myself andprobably embarrassing our team
(22:27):
here at The TechEd Podcast. DidI even use something like that?
But now you think about how allthat has evolved, and if I'm
somebody that entered theworkforce 3040, years ago, and
I've got technology changing andnow we're in this world of
lifelong learning, I think thefact that you're looking at
continuing education forsomebody who's in the workforce,
for your corporate partners tobe able to come back to the
(22:48):
university and study AI and earna certificate. What does that
feel like? What does that looklike? What are they learning? I
John Walz (22:53):
think again, it's a wide variety of things. It may
be specific to a field. It maybe applications of AI and
healthcare. What it can do inthat it may just touch base on
capabilities of machinelearning. What are the different
things it can do, sure, or toget involved in a little bit
more detail about that. So Ithink that's really what we
want, is to touch on a lot ofdifferent people. And again, we
(23:15):
have a full if you just want aquick understanding of it, we
have a short course here.
There's no credit for it, sure.
If you want to learn, go intolot detail, you can get a
graduate certificate. You takethree courses on it, maybe in a
business area. And then if youwant to, hey, I really like
this. I want to do more. You geta full master's degree for it,
right? So, stackable, I assumeall stackable. Yes, that's
exactly right. And so that isreally the future, is to have a
(23:37):
tailor, you know, a suite ofproducts that you can say, this
is what we offer to you. Wheredo you see yourself fitting in?
And I think that's the future.
Absolutely,
Matt Kirchner (23:45):
it is. Yeah, the future certainly of AI
education. And I would argue thefuture of education in general
is true. Technology continues tomove so fast, and we'll talk in
a little bit about the changingface of higher education before
we get into that. A couple morethoughts on the whole AI front.
And you know, I know you see,you led on AI. You doubled down
on AI with Derrick Hall. Now, insome ways, I would say you're
tripling down on AI. I was just,I was just on LinkedIn, I think
(24:08):
it was over the weekend, maybelast week, and saw a huge
announcement that the universitymade, from a leadership
standpoint, you added a directorof applied AI education
responsible for guiding theintegration of applied
artificial intelligence acrossacademic functions at the
university and leading a campuswide AI steering committee that
comes in the form of Dr OlgaEMAS. Tell us about Dr EMAS and
(24:31):
the value you think she's goingto add to the university?
John Walz (24:33):
Yeah. So Olga is a professor in our Department of
Biomedical Engineering, so sheis not a computer scientist, but
she utilizes and understands thepower of that tool. She's a
great educator. She's been withus a number of years. What we
did is, over the past year, wegot a group of our faculty
together, and we called it araider Initiative, or, you know,
R, a, i, d, e, r, where the AI,so a little play there. Love it.
(24:57):
And really to look at, how canwe. Incorporate AI into our
University, and he reallycovered a lot of different
areas, what we call applied AIand curriculum, which is, what
are we teaching our students?
Applied AI in pedagogy, whichis, how do we use it to teach
our students better? Teach ourstudents applied AI in student
success. How can the studentsuse it as a tool? Or we use it
(25:18):
to help them graduate, to getthem through, and then applied
AI in operations, right? How canwe, as use it as a tool to
operate as a university? And sothey really laid out sort of
plans for this, and we realizedwe needed someone to kind of
lead that, who's dedicated toit. And Olga was on that
committee. She's very, verydedicated to this, and she was
(25:40):
the natural choice for us to tolead us that. So those are the
kinds of things that she isgoing to be doing. She's going
to continue to be an educatorand a teacher, but this is going
to be a big part of her job now,is to lead that. So we're very,
very excited about that, and
Matt Kirchner (25:55):
you should be very excited. Let's dissect that
a little bit, because youmentioned two sides of it, I
think. And this is just so, justso we're making sure that the
message is getting through tothe audience. Obviously, we can
talk a lot about, on the AIside, building that into
curriculum, building that intostudent experience. We talked
about building certificateprograms and degree programs
around that. But then the otherpart of it in higher education
(26:16):
is, how are we using AI to dothe work of education? Right?
I'm just such a huge believer,at any level of education, the
amount of data that we haveabout our students can really
be, in a good way, overwhelming.
I mean, in a lot of other marketspaces, you would do anything to
have the kind of data we haveabout student performance,
extracurricular activities,attendance, aptitudes, test
scores, all of this informationthat we have about our students,
(26:40):
and I'm just a huge believerthat the future of education is
recognizing that not everybodylearns the same way. Not
everybody's going to benefitfrom the same style of delivery.
And so let's figure out, let'suse that data that we have
figure out how our students arelearning best, and then catering
that educational experience tothe students based on that. It
sounds like you're getting intosome of that already. We are,
(27:02):
and there are
John Walz (27:04):
a number of tools out there. I mean, you could
eventually see it. You know, astudent is doing a math problem,
and they're stuck on a mathproblem, and here's a machine
learning algorithm that couldlook at what they've done, and
actually you can say, hey,you've made a mistake here. This
is what I should have done. Sothat's a study tool, right? It's
helping students learn. It'shelping with their student
success. Many of our faculty aredoing that, helping them design
(27:24):
problems or assess the workthat's being done. So that's
really a part of it. The otherpart about it, and you touched
upon, is how we operate. So oneof the big applications that we
have right now that we're usingit is on student recruitment and
admissions. Here's a student,they're interested in mechanical
engineering. Here's someinformation about that student.
Here's where they're from,Racine, Wisconsin, and we've got
(27:46):
machine learning programs nowthat can say, hey, this is what
we think it's going to take toget that student. This is the
financial aid award that we needto do. Or we think, you know
this student, getting thatstudent on campus is important,
or hooking that student up withthe faculty member. These are
the things that you can do toincrease the likelihood of
landing that student. And so weexpect to see improvements in
(28:07):
not only helping us attractstudents, but on retention of
students as well. What are thestudents struggling with? What
are the tools that we can throwout there? So I think all of
that is going to change highereducation in many ways, and it's
already starting to happen theplace that we're using it more,
probably, right now is, like Isaid, on admissions and
recruitment of students, what isit going to take to land
(28:27):
students here? And
Matt Kirchner (28:28):
just to extend that a little bit, number one,
the efficiency of being able totarget the perfect student,
right? Because not MSO we is notgoing to be perfect for every
student. Not every student isgoing to be perfect for MSO we.
And not that it's good or bad orright or wrong, but the more you
can dial in on what's right forthe student and how are they
going to fit at the university,the more likely that you are to
recruit that person, the morelikely they are to have a
(28:50):
positive experience, right? Theyget there once they get there,
that speaks to the retentionpart that you talked about, and
then being able to think aboutas we're spending our recruiting
budget, how do we spend that asefficiently as possible and be
able to attract the bestpossible students that are going
to be a great fit for theuniversity, and then use that
capital maybe in other parts ofthe work that you're doing? So
(29:10):
incredibly brilliant that way.
Had a conversation, actually,earlier this week with somebody
who said to say hi, by the way,we share a friend in the form of
Dr Richard Barnhouse. Oh yeah,sure, rich at wauci County
Technical College, who hastremendous admiration, by the
way, for your way of thinkingabout higher education schedule.
And Rich and I have worked onsome really fun things. Rich has
been using AI to, you know, forthe student scheduling
experience, right? So literally,like, build different iterations
(29:33):
of schedules. So as students,especially in this new world of
education where we may beworking, we may have other
things other than just being oncampus every day and going to
class and being able to maximizethe matching of faculty and
academic talent and availabilitywith the availability students,
it's another application forartificial intelligence. So
really, really exciting it is.
(29:54):
It's a new world out there. Yep,exactly, and we're proud and
excited to be forging into ittogether. There on the horizon
as we look to the future, you'retalking about how you're using
John AI now at the University,if we look back or look forward,
I should say, three to fiveyears from now, what other
applications do you see on thehorizon? I
John Walz (30:12):
think, for us, and it's Dwight's dream as well as
our dream, is that, you know,eventually, every engineering
graduate who comes out of MS weknows how to use it, right?
We're getting there. We're notquite there yet. We have minors,
we have courses, but that'swhere we want, and it becomes
the basis of the fundamentalsthat you're using. And how can
AI help you with that andeventually expand that beyond
just engineering, whether it'snursing or business and other
(30:34):
degree programs, that's where wewant. We have set our goal with
our board that we'll be arecognized leader and applied AI
education, right? This is it'snothing that gets great
fundamental research. It's a lotof great friends to do that, a
lot of great institutions.
That's not our mission, right?
Our mission is applying thistechnology. And that is really
where we can set that apart. Andwe want to get to a point where
(30:56):
people across the country willsay, those students who come out
of MSO, we know how to use thattechnology here, and that's what
we're working and that's whatOlga is really going to help us
do that. And
Matt Kirchner (31:06):
that model isn't really anything new for MSO. We
in the sense of that, assomebody who's employed your
graduates in manufacturing for30 years now, the truth of the
matter is that the universityhas a reputation for producing
students that are, we used tocall them shop floor ready,
right? So you can recruit a lotof students out of engineering
schools, and you can just tell,you can tell the ones that had a
(31:27):
hands on experience, a polytechnic experience, from the
ones that had a real theoreticalexperience in engineering. And
there's a place for all of themthat's right, but, but you've
always had a reputation ofpeople that come out not just
knowing the theory, but puttingit to work on day one, and this
is just another extension ofthat. That's
John Walz (31:43):
right, and that's what I've heard, you know, since
I've been here at ms SOE foreight and a half years now, and
I've had so many eitherrecruiters or company CEOs will
say to me something like, mycompany hires engineers from
these different schools, allgreat schools, but there's one
thing that sets the msweGraduate apart, is they hit the
ground running, and you canthrow a hard problem at them
(32:03):
from day one, and they will getit. And that, we take a lot of
pride
Matt Kirchner (32:06):
in that, and they're comfortable in what we
call the gemba, or the place ofaction, which, in my world, the
manufacturing was always theshop floor, right? Yeah. So, you
know, there's a lot of folksthat, you know, if you've just
learned in a classroom, and allof a sudden you're standing out
on the manufacturing floor with,you know, safety glasses and and
earplugs and steel toe shoes,and it's like, you know, they
they're overwhelmed by it andand MS always graduates, I can
speak from experience. That'snot the case. You've got them,
(32:28):
and again, in my case ofmanufacturing, but you put, you
put students into a lot ofdifferent disciplines and a lot
of different career pathways,but absolutely the reputation
that you have. And I think it'simportant for us to recognize
that that's going to be supervaluable, I think, as we move
into the future of what highereducation looks like, and
certainly what employers arelooking for, the enrollment
cliff, we, you know, it almostsounds cliche to talk about it,
(32:49):
because everybody knows it'sit's coming. We know that we're
going to have, you know, thesame number of universities
recruiting a smaller number ofstudents for a period of time.
So if competition is whatcompetition is, that's going to
really force us to be innovativein higher education. Talk about
some of those challenges,whether it's demographic or
otherwise, that higher educationis facing, and what MSO is
doing, yeah, I think generally,
John Walz (33:10):
you hit it right? The key is, demographics are one of
it. I mean, just, you know, alower birth rate of students 18
years ago. There's also studentsquestioning whether, do I need
to go get a four year degree,right? You hear about what's
happening, is it worth it? Andso for all these different
reasons, yeah, recruitingstudents and coming into
universities is going to getharder and harder. The wealthy
(33:31):
schools with a billion, multibillion dollar endowments, they
can survive, but it's going tobe a challenging time. And what
we've recognized this, this isnot completely new, right? The
demographic clip has been knownabout for 18 years now. So what
Ms OE is doing a couple ofdifferent things to ensure that
we continue to thrive and getstronger. Number one, we're
(33:51):
broadening our educationalofferings. We're recognizing,
I'm still a big believer, that astudent going to school and
learning on campus is just agreat experience, and I don't
think that's going to change,but I think that if you want to
reach a broader group ofstudents, there are some
students that that just may notwork for. Maybe they're in a
different part of their life,they're married, right? They
(34:11):
whatever, they're not going tomove off to campus. You need to
be able to reach those types ofstudents. That's part of it is
broadening, and that's whatwe're doing with professional
education and these master'sdegree programs that are
mentioned, they're all online,and that is a place where online
education can work. If you'retrying to teach an 1819 year old
kid how to do thermodynamics anddo that to an online that's not
(34:32):
the easy thing to do. So ifyou're trying to teach a 27 year
old student who already has anundergraduate degree, they can
work from home, they want topick up a master's degree, then
it can work quite well. It'sjust a different motivation,
different type of student. Sobroadening our offerings is
number one, but also just whatwe call expanding our reach. You
know, traditionally, 60% of ourstudents have come from the
(34:54):
state of Wisconsin, and we stillwill recruit heavily to
Wisconsin, but we've recognizedwe've got to go beyond. That
too. We've got a great thingthat we offer here. So a comment
that I've heard many times sinceI started here from, you know,
maybe people, political leaders,others said, MS, we, you guys,
are a hidden gem. And I willsay, I like half of that, right?
(35:15):
I love being a gym, but no one'sgonna come to us if we're
hidden, right? So, you know,getting out there and marketing
and new ways of marketing andreaching a broader group of
students, maybe beyond justWisconsin and getting into the
neighboring state. So I think acombination of those and we'll
be fine, but that's, I thinkthat's the right way to do it.
So it's
Matt Kirchner (35:32):
interesting, 60% of your students from Wisconsin,
I might have guessed it was evenhigher than that. So you've got,
you know, four out of 10students are coming from out of
state, yeah, and the majority
John Walz (35:41):
of them probably would come from the Northern
Illinois area. Okay, right? Imean, they're either Chicago
suburbs are closer to us thanmany parts of Wisconsin, right?
So we do recruit out of thatremaining bed for, you know, the
remaining 40% that would be thebulk of them. But do we get
students? We get them from otherMidwest states. We get students
here, actually, quite a number,who come from from around the
country to play athletics, andathletics is a very important
(36:04):
recruiting tool for us. So astudent, maybe, you know, living
in California, who wants to playsoccer, and maybe they want to
get a great education, andperhaps they're maybe, you know,
not a d1 level soccer player. Ithink our students are wonderful
soccer players, but we canappeal to that and say, Come
here. You come here, you can geta great education, you can
participate in athletics. That'svery important for us. Athletics
(36:25):
plays a huge role for us in
Matt Kirchner (36:26):
the urban campus.
And you've got just a beautifulsoccer field, actually, right
there, like Water Street, it'son
John Walz (36:33):
top of a parking garage, right? We have a soccer
field built on top of a parkingExactly. Very unique. Yeah, for
Matt Kirchner (36:38):
sure, it is. And as you and I were talking
earlier, I actually spent sixyears of my life living pretty
much right on your campus. Theapartment that I lived in after
I graduated from college was, Imean, the your radio station was
right across the street. Yeah, Ilooked out the window at the
baseball team playing out thereon the baseball field and And
absolutely, that is aninteresting aspect. I love it.
And you live right in the middleof that, all that activity going
(36:58):
on. I know you live right oncampus in the president's
residence, which is a greatexperience. You know, being a
celebrity, not just on campus,but obviously carrying a high
profile in the City ofMilwaukee, in the state of
Wisconsin, our Business Journalrecently recognized you as a
quote power player. I wouldattest to that, obviously,
really leading, in so many ways,higher education into the future
here in southeast Wisconsin.
Tell us what that recognition,how did that come about, and
(37:21):
what does it mean?
John Walz (37:23):
I was really honored to get it. I didn't expect it.
There's some, obviously, somereally wonderful people on
there. It's great to have yourwork recognized. I mean, I love
what I do. I love ourinstitution. I love our faculty
staff, I love our students. Andso to me, it's a joy doing what
I do, and I think it's a greatinstitution. And if I get
recognized for that, then that'smakes it even nicer, but
absolutely, yeah, what
Matt Kirchner (37:43):
are those one or two things that absolutely kind
of drive you day in and day out?
When you get up in the morningand excited to go about the work
that you're doing.
John Walz (37:50):
You do this work because you love students. You
have to love students. You haveto you see the value and the
creativity and the hard workthat they have. And we just have
great groups of students. Dothey like to have a little fun?
Of course, they like to have alittle have a little fun. But
they're, they're 18. You know, Iwas, we were all 18 or 19 once,
right? And still fun. And sothey work hard. They're great.
(38:12):
They're grounded. And I lovebeing around them. I love going
to watch their sporting events,and I love to watch them
succeed. To me, Commencement isone of the most special times. I
mean, you're sitting up thereand you're watching the students
and their family, they're soproud of them, and seeing walk
across that degree and shaketheir hand. To me, it's like
this is why we do what we doright to give these students
(38:35):
that great education and knowthat they're going to go off and
be the next white Derek sowhomever, and just contribute
and make the world. I give thema make the world a better place.
And so I that's what I like,Absolutely,
Matt Kirchner (38:46):
one of my, one of my very best friends, I'll just
mention his name is Johnlaundry. His son, Max, I
believe, is graduating thisspring, has had, and John, will
tell me, has told me that Ms OEwas exactly the right spot for
his third son. His first twowent to the University of
Wisconsin, Madison, obviouslydifferent model, much bigger
university, but a great school.
Yeah, both great institutions intheir own right, for sure, but
(39:06):
just the experience for to ourearlier point, his son, who was
at a place in his life that justabsolutely flourished at ms OE,
and I'm sure being able to tosit up on that stage and watch
them come across the stage andthen those diplomas at the end
of the at the end of theirjourney, which in some ways is
just the beginning of theirjourney in this age of lifelong
learning. That's right, but it'sgot to be just incredibly it is
(39:27):
incredibly rewarding. So acouple more questions for you.
Sure. Everybody has their ownexperience through education.
Everybody has their own view ofeducation. What is something
that Dr John walls would say Youthink differently about
education than most other peopledo, or that would surprise other
people in terms of your paradigmfor education?
John Walz (39:48):
Well, that's a great question. Maybe I'm a bit of a
traditionalist, but as Imentioned, I still think a
student going to college andbeing there in person is a great
way to get educated. I think youlearned as much outside of the
classroom as you learned.
People, I mean, in the peoplethat you make and the, you know,
solving your roommate problemsand learning how to deal with
that, that's all a part ofeducation, right? There's what
you learn in the class and allthe other stuff. And you're
(40:09):
taking an 1819, year oldindividual who is still
developing in many ways, andproducing out an adult who's
who's ready to go out in theworld. And so I still think
coming to campus and dealingwith all that is still the
greatest, the greatest form ofeducation. And I never want to
get away from that. Do Iunderstand that there's a
there's a place for onlineeducation? Of course, I do. I
(40:31):
get that, sure, but I just neverhope that we never get away from
that model of mom and daddropping off their son or
daughter at school and theemotions of that, and then
seeing them when they graduateis still one of the greatest
experiences all, and that's abig part of who we are. So the
traditional education, I think,is incredibly valuable, still
such
Matt Kirchner (40:50):
an interesting observation, and I've said for
many, many years, during my postsecondary experience, went
actually to another solidMilwaukee institution, Marquette
University, where I studiedafter high school, I've said
forever that I learned as muchoutside of the classroom as I
did in, and part of it,obviously, was the academic side
of things, but then interactingwith your roommates and solving
problems there. And I worked aton when I was in college, I
(41:12):
worked from Milwaukee County inthe Aquatics department. I
coached swimming. I was alwaysworking. I was always, you know,
studying as much as I as I couldor had to, to make it through
the journey, and then alsotrying to fit in a bunch of fun
as well, whether that wasextracurricular activities
clubs. We didn't have an AI clubat that point, of course, but,
but others so, so important, andso it's interesting to hear you
say that that in this age ofwhen everybody's talking about
(41:33):
Virtual Learning and Technologyand remote this and whatever
it's got its place, andcertainly for the the student,
depending upon where they are intheir life. Want to make those
opportunities available to themso that everybody has a chance
at a solid higher education, butthat campus experience
absolutely important, and it'sgreat that you point that out.
One final question for you,John, as we wrap up our time
(41:54):
with Dr John walls here on TheTechEd Podcast, President, by
the way, of the Milwaukee Schoolof Engineering, I know you grew
up in Louisiana, right, north ofNew Orleans, right or New
Orleans, New Orleans? Yeah. Sotell me a little bit about that.
If you were to go back in timeto that 15 year old John walls,
your sophomore in high school,whole life ahead of you,
(42:15):
enjoying the much warmertemperatures in Louisiana than
we're seeing here in Milwaukeethese days. If you could give
that young man one piece ofadvice, John, what would that
be? So
John Walz (42:23):
that's a great question, and I appreciate that,
and I would give them the advicethat I give to the entering
freshmen. I always address ourentering freshmen, and I say,
take advantage of theseopportunities that you're going
to have. You know, whetheryou're in high school, whether
in college, you're never goingto have a time like this ever
again in your life, and don'tlet it just go by, right? And,
(42:45):
you know, don't think, wow, I'lllearn that eventually I'll do
that. Because, as you and I bothknow it goes by fast, and you
want to look back and say, Man,I wish I would have done this or
not done that. So take advantageof these great you, these
students, and whether you're inhigh school or in college, you
just given enormousopportunities. And just don't
(43:06):
let all that pass you by, right?
Stay focused, have a little fun,but take advantage of that.
That's what I would have givento myself. And I wish there were
things that I probably wish Iwould have done, that I did,
right? I just goofed off alittle bit, maybe sure not
should have done less, but thatwould be it. I think that's
Matt Kirchner (43:23):
absolutely perfect for a young person that
is, you know, sophomore in highschool, thinking about their,
you know, finishing off theirsecondary journey and then, and
then heading off into what comesafter, after high school, and
really, you know, living everyone of those moments, being
aware of those incredibleopportunities. There's a lot of
ways that we can just pass timethese days, right? I mean, it's
almost impossible to be bored,because as soon as you are you
(43:45):
can jump on YouTube or jump ontick tock, and that fills the
time, right? You've got all ofthese experiences that are
available to you during yourcollegiate journey. Make sure
you're watching for thoserealizing the minutes are coming
and taking advantage of them asthey make themselves available
to you because time passesreally, really quickly, as it
did, by the way, in this episodeof The TechEd Podcast. So the
(44:06):
incredible conversation herewith Dr John walls, the
president of the greatinstitution, the Milwaukee
School of Engineering, learned aton you're leading. You're doing
great things. I know ouraudience really, really enjoyed
this episode, as did I. John,thanks so much for being with
us. Thank
John Walz (44:19):
you, Matt. It was a real pleasure. I enjoyed talking
to you very much. So thank youfor joining
Matt Kirchner (44:23):
us on this episode of The TechEd Podcast.
It's Matt Kirk, nurse, sowonderful to have you with us.
We'll put all of the informationfrom this episode in the show
notes. Check out the show notesat TechEd podcast slash walls.
That's TechEd podcast slash w, aL z. TechEd podcast, slash w, a,
l, Z, that's where the shownotes are. Are going to be, and
(44:44):
then check us out on socialmedia. Of course, we're all over
social you can find us onLinkedIn and tick tock on
Facebook, on Instagram, whereveryou are. Checking out social
media, you will find The TechEdPodcast. Follow us there. Be
sure to say hello. We would loveto hear from you. And until
nine. This week, I'm MattKirchner, your host. Thanks for
being with us. You.
Matt, welcome into The TechEd Podcast. It is
(00:10):
Matt Kirchner, and it is anotherweek talking about higher
education in this case, but alsoabout artificial intelligence,
which is a topic that comes upregularly on The TechEd Podcast,
however, not often with somebodywho's been an absolute pioneer
in the world of artificialintelligence education. I can
say that about today's guest. Heis an individual who has been so
(00:32):
far out in front he and his teamon AI working on talking about
artificial intelligence beforemany of us even knew it was a
thing. So we're going to talkabout that. We're going to talk
about what it's like to lead aniconic engineering and technical
university in the form of theMilwaukee School of Engineering,
and we are doing that with thatorganization's president. His
(00:55):
name is Dr John walls. I'vegotten to know him over the
course of the last year,fascinating, brilliant person.
So proud and happy to have youin person in the studio here at
The TechEd Podcast. John,
John Walz (01:07):
thanks for being with us. Thank you, Matt. I
appreciate the comments. Thankyou absolutely. And
Matt Kirchner (01:10):
I meet every one of them. I mean, we think about
being early, early on and anearly adopter of artificial
intelligence learning in thefield of higher education, and
you just can't say enough aboutthe leadership position that Ms
OE has had in that regard. Youjoined Carnegie Mellon, a pretty
good, pretty good company,right?
John Walz (01:27):
Yeah, I went to grad school as well as a special
meeting for me,
Matt Kirchner (01:32):
absolutely. So join them. Join them as one of
the first two universities inthe nation to offer an
undergraduate degree focused onartificial intelligence. So tell
us a little bit about that. Whatdid you say? That. What did you
see in this market? John, thatnobody else was seeing at the
time you started
John Walz (01:46):
this. So what we we had is, I describe it as a mix,
a great mix of opportunity meetsneed. And a lot of our corporate
partners at the time weretelling us we would like MS, we
to offer a degree in computerscience. We did not have a
computer science degree. We hadsomething called software
engineering, which is a littlebit different, but somewhat
(02:07):
related, but not computerscience. Pretty much around the
same time, we had thismagnificent opportunity
presented to us by Dwightderricks and his wife, Diane, to
provide a building to us and asuper computer, which is great
for artificial intelligencework. And that is when we said,
we can do something distinctivehere. We can make a computer
(02:28):
science degree, not a vanillacomputer science degree, but one
that is focused on artificialintelligence. So that is when
students come out, they knowthat, and that's what we decided
to do, and that has been anenormous success, and so we
could have done it anyway, butwhat Dwight did for us, it would
have been that much harder todo. Just to get that level of
(02:49):
resources from US has made adifference, but we could also
meet the needs of our industrialpartners at the same time. And
we're
Matt Kirchner (02:55):
going to get into the whole partnership with
Dwight Dirks and his wife,Diane, and the great things that
they're doing for for thebenefit of your students, for
the benefit of our communityhere in southeast Wisconsin,
before we do that, though, Johnwould be curious to know this as
you're getting this thing stoodup, as you're you have this
incredible vision. What is thetrick to getting so far ahead of
everybody else? I
John Walz (03:14):
think there are three things that happen. Number one,
like we said, we had this greatgift from Dwight and his wife,
Diane, that gave us the machine.
That gave us some building. Wehad a software engineering
degree so, and like I said,there are some similarities
there. So we didn't have to goout and hire a dozen new
faculty. We had people thatcould start teaching the courses
while we hire. We did have to dosome hiring, sure. And the other
(03:35):
advantage is, there's a certainadvantage to being a small
private school, you can benimble, right? And I've worked
nothing against large publicschools. I've worked with them,
but we could basically envisiona computer science degree, a new
degree, and get it approved andget it ready within four months.
And that being small and privateallowed us to do that. So all of
(03:58):
those things came together andallow us to get out ahead of
this stuff.
Matt Kirchner (04:03):
And as somebody who spends a lot of time in
higher education and eveninnovating, you know, in a
public setting, in a largeuniversity, sometimes even in a
private university, you know,can take years. I mean, you
think about some of the thingsthat happen to get whether we're
creating a new degree programand maybe different state
universities arguing about whogets to have that, how we're
going to get it funded, youknow, in some cases, even going
(04:25):
to a Board of Regents on astatewide basis, these kind of
things. And here you are in thisyou say, you say small private
university, number of studentsat MSO we so if you
John Walz (04:34):
count everybody we graduate, we have some, mainly
undergraduate, some graduates,I'd say 2700 2800 that's pretty
much where we are,
Matt Kirchner (04:41):
absolutely and allows you to be incredibly
nimble. I can tell is somebodythat's been involved with MSO we
for several decades. As a matterof fact, first of all, very,
very nimble, very, veryflexible, incredibly responsible
to your corporate citizens andyour partners, in a way that I
think a lot of times in highereducation, not that that gets
lost, but you tend to sort. Of alot of different masters, if you
will, in your particular case,so responsive to the needs of
(05:04):
your your corporate partners,which is really, really
important. As you stand up thisdegree program, you create these
opportunities for your students.
Now we've got a lot of folks inhigher education, whether it's
technical community colleges,universities, you know, graduate
programs, PhD programs and soon, trying to figure out what to
teach when it comes toartificial intelligence. So
let's talk about that. If I'm astudent, that's part of this
program, what specifically am Ilearning? Yeah,
John Walz (05:28):
so one of the distinctive things about MSO we
and it was that way, since wewere founded in 1903 it's, it's
an application focused degree.
Our students learn by doing. Sowith all of our degrees, our
students probably spend moretime in laboratories and hands
on work than you will find atany other type of institution,
but they still have to know thefundamentals. Right. If you're
(05:49):
going to use and be a computerscience graduate with a focus in
AI, you have to understand whatAI and machine learning is. But
what sets us apart is it's theapplication of it. Not simply
know what it is, but how do Iuse it? So our students in all
of their classes, how do I takethat tool and apply it to
different areas, what it can dowith it? And that's really what
(06:11):
sets our graduates apart, andwhy companies love to hire from
MS OE, because when they comeout, they're like, they're ready
to go. They know how to usethat.
Matt Kirchner (06:20):
So it's certainly the theory, it's the coding,
it's the programming, but moreimportant, it's like, okay, what
am I going to do with this nowthat I know it? We talk so often
about what I call the edge tocloud continuum, this whole idea
that we've got smart sensors anddevices on the edge, we've got
cloud computing, and then thatcontinuum really repeats itself
over and over, whether it's oursmartphone, whether it's
manufacturing, healthcare,defense, retail, hospitality,
(06:43):
every single market space hasthese applications for
artificial intelligence. And soas I'm hearing, your students
are learning not just the theorybehind it, not just the
technical side of AI, which isimportant. But then how am I
going to apply this in themarketplace, which makes them
incredibly valuable to yourcorporate partners? Correct?
Exactly,
John Walz (07:00):
right. And we see that with the number of
companies, not a type ofcompanies that are hiring our
students. It's just gettingstudents in that area in
particular, you know, they'renot just going to, you know,
maybe you're traditional, theones that you would think of
that's going to hire computerscience graduates or students
with that we're seeingmanufacturing companies, we're
seeing healthcare companies,we're seeing construction
companies, financial servicescompanies, all need people with
(07:23):
that skill, and I think that'sgoing to continue to grow. It's
really a great market for thesestudents, whether they want to
stay here in Wisconsin, which isgreat, or sometimes, you know,
the appeal of going off to thecoast is there a bit as well.
And I'm like, go for it, right?
Absolutely,
Matt Kirchner (07:37):
our big believers and show them the world, but
show them what's here as well,and let them make the best
possible decision forthemselves, in terms of making
great decisions, even specificto your students, as I think you
know, I know several of yourvice presidents, Eric and Saj
are both both great friends,yeah. And both of them have
talked to me about studentsgoing off and kind of starting
their own AI club. Is thatsomething that that should be?
John Walz (07:59):
Yeah. So we, a group of our students, got together a
few years ago and formed an AIclub. Yeah, it is open to any
student, right? Not justcomputer science majors. It's it
is has over 200 members. It isthe largest club at our
university that didn't existfive or six years ago. And it's
really to do things people thathave an interest in this field.
(08:20):
They work on projects together.
They meet. They just do some ofthem do research for the
faculty. So that is really oneof the things that we're very
excited about. Is interest inthat field is really broadening
beyond just the computer folks,right? It's the other engineers
we love, eventually, to get ournursing students, our business
students, more involved thanthat. So the AI Club is a very
significant club on our campus,and that's
Matt Kirchner (08:44):
that's when you know you're hitting the right
spot, when the students take itupon themselves to create this
opportunity, when you know we'vegot probably, maybe, a certain
paradigm about data science,computer programmers, those
students, and then opening it upbeyond that to a it's not just
about the coding and theprogramming, it's all these
applications. It's in everysingle market space. In as much
(09:05):
as your school is the MilwaukeeSchool of Engineering. It's not
just engineers, as you touchedon, right? What are their
academic programs or students?
John Walz (09:11):
That is correct? So we're about 80% engineering,
okay? 10% business, 10% nursing,and in engineering, you know,
computer science, constructionmanagement, I kind of lump all
those in together, but all thatfocus. But I named beliza A
little bit. We're not strictlyan engineering school. We're as
saj. You mentioned Saj sometimeshe says, Milwaukee School of
more than just engineering. Ilove that term, right? A
Unknown (09:33):
little bit too many letters to stick into the MSO
doesn't work on a sweatshirtvery well. Exactly right?
Matt Kirchner (09:39):
You're recruiting students into the programs,
obviously the academic rigor,the opportunity for, you know,
for a really lively campus life,the opportunity to join clubs
like the AI club, and then whatcomes after undergraduate
education, as you're recruitingstudents and talking about the
career programs andopportunities, particularly the
flow out of this AI world. Youtouched on some of them. You
(10:01):
talked about finance, you talkedabout healthcare. Yeah, wait,
what's the message to thosestudents? Where can they go with
John Walz (10:05):
a degree like this?
They can go almost anywhere now.
And if it's not there now, itwill be in the future. I mean,
this is a field that it is thetransformative technology. It is
what digital computers were, youknow, when we were in school,
when I was in school, and thecomputers came out, I think it's
just getting adopted more andmore by a broader range of
companies. But like I said,Well, you know what we're seeing
now is every type of industrythat typically recruits students
(10:30):
will be recruiting people whohave that skill. One of our
goals is that it's not just thecomputer scientists who know how
to use that. We'd love to beable to get to the point that,
yes, my degree is in electricalengineering, but I know how to
use AI. My degree is in civilengineering, but I know how to
use AI, because I thinkeventually that's what company
is going to want, even innursing, right? I mean, the idea
(10:51):
that you have a nursing studentor business person who says,
Yes, I know the fundamentals,but I can apply that technology
to my field, I think that'swhere eventually it's going to
get to the major industries.
They all recruit students fromus who know how to use that. And
I think that's going
Matt Kirchner (11:06):
to get to you.
Yeah, I think you're exactlyright. And we're seeing it, you
know, not just eventually, but Ithink we're even seeing that
now. Where, where employers. Ifwe think about here in southeast
Wisconsin, some of the greatcompanies, you know, really,
really well known companies,we've got tons of small to mid
sized businesses, but then we'vegot companies like a Harley
Davidson or C Johnson or orNorthwestern Mutual or Baird,
or, you know, one of our greathealth care providers, like
(11:26):
freighter, I mean, so many ofthese different institutions
that are looking for people thatunderstand how to apply AI. And
then we've got huge companies.
So let's talk about, maybeNvidia is a good way of getting
into our next topic. Okay, youmentioned Dwight Dirks name
earlier in the discussion. Who'sthat person? I know who it is,
but
John Walz (11:45):
okay, so Dwight is a 1990 graduate of MS OE. His
degree was in computerengineering. He started out
working for a company down inTexas called Compaq, sure. And
those of you remember compactmade the first portable computer
I had one which is about thesize of the suitcase, right?
Yeah. So portable was adifferent name then, but that's
where he started. And he workedfor them for a number of years,
(12:07):
and then he moved on. He had aanother company, but then he
ended up working with a smallstartup out in the bay area
called Nvidia. He was employeenumber 22 Wow, from Nvidia at
the time. I mean, it was notclear they were going to make it
Nvidia. Their big product wasgraphics cards for computer
games. They were a gamingcompany, right? And they could
(12:27):
do that really well, and that'swhere there's their business.
And so when, you know, when wefirst met white and when this
came on the scene, gaming wasstill their biggest product at
the time, yeah. And then at somepoint, somebody realized that
these cards, which can work sowell with computer graphics, can
also be applied to artificialintelligence and specifically a
type of it called machinelearning. And that's when the
(12:50):
world just took off for them.
And so you know, if you if youfollowed Nvidia stock, it is
just blown up. And it was reallythat discovery that these cards,
so I think they still probablyare into gaming to a degree, but
clearly this application onmachine learning and AI is
really what's driven thatcompany. So we were very
Dwight's a tremendous person. Heand his wife, Diane. He grew up
in Red Wing, Minnesota. Hisfather was a farmer. I think he
(13:13):
raised pigs, but he's a veryhumble guy, and he loves MSO we
and we're just very proud ofhim. Yeah, by
Matt Kirchner (13:21):
coincidence, the second conversation I've had
already this morning on RedWing, Minnesota, because I had a
meeting this morning with Ronwanick, who's the founder and
chairman of Ashley Furnitureindustries. I grew up in Winona.
Okay, we were talking about RedWing, so, so that's a great area
just south of Minneapolis, ofthe red cities. And what a
blessing for MS OE to be in thisrelationship with a former
(13:41):
student who's on the groundfloor of what's been the, you
know, certainly, from a marketcap standpoint, the fastest
growing company in the worldhere for the last several years,
and truly the backbone and theinfrastructure of everything and
so much that's happening inartificial intelligence, and all
the data centers are usingNvidia technology as we're as
we're just computing andprocessing tremendous amounts of
(14:05):
data. And here you've got thisformer student who's on the
ground floor in thisorganization and has done so
much for the Milwaukee School ofEngineering. Now, I was actually
in attendance when you openDwight and Diane Dirks
Computational Science Hall. Oh,really, yeah, you had a big open
house, yeah? And it was preCOVID, of course. And so we kind
of remember everything about,you know, everything in the last
(14:26):
several years, when, when ithappened, relative to COVID. But
I had the opportunity to bethere, and I was just blown
away. Oh, it was great,incredible five year
anniversary. I mean, yeah, it'shard
John Walz (14:36):
to believe it was 2019 when we opened that
building. And it was a full daycelebration. Dwight was there
with his family. Jensen Wong,the president of invisio, of
Nvidia, came by for that. Yeah,I'll tell you a little anecdote
about it. So at the end of theday, Dwight and Jensen, they're
in Derrick Hall, and they weregoing to sign autographs for the
students. And what a greatopportunity for sure. And Ms, we
(14:56):
students being who they are,what they were doing, many of
them would go back to. Theirdorm room, they would open up
their computer, they would takeout their Nvidia graphics card,
and it would bring it back andhave Dwight and Jensen sign
their Nvidia graphics card.
Jensen just loved that. So thatwas a it was a great day. Yeah,
so tell
Matt Kirchner (15:13):
us about everything that's going on
there. I mean, it's right forthe people who don't know pretty
much, right in downtownMilwaukee, just north of, kind
of the center of downtown. It'sa focal piece, a show piece, for
the marquis School ofEngineering. So tell us a little
bit about it. Yeah. So
John Walz (15:25):
it's a great building. It is the home of our
departments, of our programs incomputer science and software
engineering. It has a supercomputer in it called Rosie and
video supercomputer. It's reallythe jewel box of that. I mean,
we love that machine. It sitsbehind these big windows, behind
this big window with the nameRosie on it. Yep, it's built to
be a very student friendlybuilding. So there's a lot of
(15:47):
study space, whether a studentwants to just study on their
own, whether they want to studywith a partner. There was
whether they want to have agroup. There's little rooms that
they can reserve and go in thereand study. So it's a place that
students want to be and facultywant to be. In fact, we've had
some of our students who'vesaid, I came to you because I
really love that building, yeah,and so, and that's great for us,
and companies use it. We havecorporate events. There's a
(16:09):
company in town called sislogic, which, every year holds
their cyber security company.
They hold their meeting there.
So it's really been, it isreally a great example, in my
opinion, of what a greatfacility can do for an
institution, not just attractingstudents and faculty and staff,
but also just having industrialrelationships and supporting our
(16:30):
students. So we it's a greatbuilding. We're very proud of
it,
Matt Kirchner (16:32):
and I can attest to everything you're saying,
having spent a fair amount oftime there, number one, walking
in there huge open spaces. Itreally is when you think about
the future of higher educationand the the opportunity for
students to interact and tolearn from each other. And we're
not, you know, we're not sittingin little cubicles, nice, big,
beautiful, open area, well lit,gigantic windows on the outside.
It's really stunning. I had theopportunity last summer to serve
(16:54):
on a panel during Summer Festtech, which is something that
happens here in Wisconsin everysummer around technology. And
you hosted that particular eventat Dirks Hall as well. So just
absolutely, absolutely amazing.
And then you mentioned Rosie thesuper computer, yeah, candidate,
you can't miss it. I mean, it'sjust it is, when you think about
super computer, not just interms of processing power, but
in terms of the size of that,right? And looking through these
(17:15):
beautiful windows, tell us alittle bit more about Rosie. I
read recently that it'sprocessed 150,000
John Walz (17:22):
jobs. Yeah, that's very possible. I didn't know
that, and that's a great numberto hear. First of all, I want to
say, you know why she's namedRosie, which is a question we
get a lot. For sure, there's tworeasons. There's the formal
reason, which is, the firstcomputer programmers in this
country were women, and it wasduring World War Two, and they
were doing calculations ofmissile trajectories for the
war. And men were at the war.
And somebody wrote an articleabout that group of Rosies, like
(17:45):
Rosie the river, right? Butthese are Rosie, Rosie the
programmers. And there's animage that we have that we show
in the building of those earlyprogrammers. And so Rosie is
named in honor of those. And thesecond reason, which is not such
a formal reason, is Rosie wasthe name of Dwight's mother, ah,
so for that, and he's very proudof that. So Rosie has done a lot
of work, a lot of jobs, a lot ofit has been classroom projects.
(18:07):
And so all the students whotake, you know, courses, they're
using Rosie. The other thingthat we do, which we're very
happy about and proud is, once ayear, we run what is called the
Rosie challenge. And the Rosiechallenge is open to all
students at university, andstudents basically have to come
up with a project that they workon, and that must use Rosie to
(18:28):
solve that, okay? And Dwightcomes over every year. He's one
of the judges. He puts up allthe prizes for it, right? And it
is the NVIDIA auditorium, whichis in the building, is full, and
the finalists are presentingtheir projects, and it's really
incredible, Matt, they see thetypes of projects that the
students are doing, and they'reeverything from this group of
students. And the other thing,it's not just computer science
(18:50):
students. There are otherengineering students. They're
involved in this. And you know,one group is saying, we're going
to design reduced air frictionon a race car. Another group is
maybe looking at how to read CATscans or X rays better. There
was a great group last year thatdid a project on being able to
predict food scarcity around theworld, saying, look at different
(19:11):
things that are happening,weather patterns and all that.
And saying, hey, this countryover here, in a couple of years,
may experience a food scarcity.
So it's impressive what peopleare doing. And so those are the
types of things that Rosie isbeing used for that you could
could you do them on othercomputers, perhaps, but it would
take, you know, months, if notyears, to do that. What Rosie
(19:31):
can do very, very quickly, well.
Matt Kirchner (19:33):
And what a great testament to where AI can add
value to just human life here onthe planet Earth, right? Whether
we're talking about the racecar, that's really cool.
Improving transportation, youknow, anytime we can improve
scanning capabilities, CATscans, MRIs, whatever, whatever
it is in that particular space,solving for food scarcity,
really, you know, credit to yourstudents as well. For I'm sure
(19:53):
they're coming up with thesetypes of programs and these
types of projects on their own.
So it really kind of shows thebreadth of different
applications. Applications forartificial intelligence, the
creativity of the students whoare studying at the university,
and then to have your workjudged by Dwight. Is he the CTO?
Is he the Chief TechnologyOfficer? He's the
John Walz (20:11):
Executive Vice President of Software
Engineering, okay, at Nydia,yeah.
Matt Kirchner (20:15):
So have that individual coming in and saying
and actually doing the judgingof those students projects, and
what a great story. That'sright? And then when you're when
you're moving on, think aboutthat, when you're moving on from
the university and looking atwhat comes next in your career,
whether that's more education,whether that's going into the
workforce, being able to tell astory like that. I mean, what a
(20:37):
great message. And he loves
John Walz (20:38):
it, and he loves to put he brings the prize money,
and it's just he gets a big kick
Matt Kirchner (20:42):
out of it. Yeah.
Terrific, terrific. So talk alittle bit about any other major
highlights you see flowing outof this AI program. And I know
AI and the whole technology haschanged significantly in the
last five years. Anything elsethat that program should be
taken credit for that you wantto share with our audience, I
think what's
John Walz (20:57):
happened too, is it's expanded so much. I mean, in a
couple of ways. Number one iswe're seeing AI get to more and
more of our degree programs,especially our engineering
degree programs. We're seeingfaculty notes programs use it.
But we've also expanded theofferings that we've had. So
initially, like I said, it was aundergraduate BS degree in
computer science. We now offerundergraduate minors. We have
(21:20):
graduate degree programs, wehave a master's degree, we have
graduate certificate programs,which have been offered, and now
we're really getting intoprofessional education programs.
So, you know, it's non degreebearing. And what we realized
Matt is that there's a hugerange of understanding and
knowledge that people want. Andyou know, maybe it's a corporate
(21:40):
mid manager who says, I justwant to know what it can do and
that, and you want to havesomething for that, or someone
who's actually going to be usingit. And so we're continuing to
understand what are the needs ofour corporate partners, and what
do they want? And so theprofessional education, that's
the new biggest thing for us,and we've rolled out a number of
courses. We'll be developingmore courses than that, but so
(22:02):
we've really leveraged a wholesuite of things that we're doing
with Rosie and with AI that's
Matt Kirchner (22:06):
so exciting. And we talk a lot, you know,
certainly when we're talkingabout higher education, about
students, about their futurecareers and so on. And then you
think about somebody, I mean,you know, careers, as we all
know, can last decade upondecade. I'm well, and I guess
the fourth or fifth decade nowof my career. You go back to the
compact suitcase computer withthe keyboard that snapped on the
top, and I'm dating myself andprobably embarrassing our team
(22:27):
here at The TechEd Podcast. DidI even use something like that?
But now you think about how allthat has evolved, and if I'm
somebody that entered theworkforce 3040, years ago, and
I've got technology changing andnow we're in this world of
lifelong learning, I think thefact that you're looking at
continuing education forsomebody who's in the workforce,
for your corporate partners tobe able to come back to the
(22:48):
university and study AI and earna certificate. What does that
feel like? What does that looklike? What are they learning? I
John Walz (22:53):
think again, it's a wide variety of things. It may
be specific to a field. It maybe applications of AI and
healthcare. What it can do inthat it may just touch base on
capabilities of machinelearning. What are the different
things it can do, sure, or toget involved in a little bit
more detail about that. So Ithink that's really what we
want, is to touch on a lot ofdifferent people. And again, we
(23:15):
have a full if you just want aquick understanding of it, we
have a short course here.
There's no credit for it, sure.
If you want to learn, go intolot detail, you can get a
graduate certificate. You takethree courses on it, maybe in a
business area. And then if youwant to, hey, I really like
this. I want to do more. You geta full master's degree for it,
right? So, stackable, I assumeall stackable. Yes, that's
exactly right. And so that isreally the future, is to have a
(23:37):
tailor, you know, a suite ofproducts that you can say, this
is what we offer to you. Wheredo you see yourself fitting in?
And I think that's the future.
Absolutely,
Matt Kirchner (23:45):
it is. Yeah, the future certainly of AI
education. And I would argue thefuture of education in general
is true. Technology continues tomove so fast, and we'll talk in
a little bit about the changingface of higher education before
we get into that. A couple morethoughts on the whole AI front.
And you know, I know you see,you led on AI. You doubled down
on AI with Derrick Hall. Now, insome ways, I would say you're
tripling down on AI. I was just,I was just on LinkedIn, I think
(24:08):
it was over the weekend, maybelast week, and saw a huge
announcement that the universitymade, from a leadership
standpoint, you added a directorof applied AI education
responsible for guiding theintegration of applied
artificial intelligence acrossacademic functions at the
university and leading a campuswide AI steering committee that
comes in the form of Dr OlgaEMAS. Tell us about Dr EMAS and
(24:31):
the value you think she's goingto add to the university?
John Walz (24:33):
Yeah. So Olga is a professor in our Department of
Biomedical Engineering, so sheis not a computer scientist, but
she utilizes and understands thepower of that tool. She's a
great educator. She's been withus a number of years. What we
did is, over the past year, wegot a group of our faculty
together, and we called it araider Initiative, or, you know,
R, a, i, d, e, r, where the AI,so a little play there. Love it.
(24:57):
And really to look at, how canwe. Incorporate AI into our
University, and he reallycovered a lot of different
areas, what we call applied AIand curriculum, which is, what
are we teaching our students?
Applied AI in pedagogy, whichis, how do we use it to teach
our students better? Teach ourstudents applied AI in student
success. How can the studentsuse it as a tool? Or we use it
(25:18):
to help them graduate, to getthem through, and then applied
AI in operations, right? How canwe, as use it as a tool to
operate as a university? And sothey really laid out sort of
plans for this, and we realizedwe needed someone to kind of
lead that, who's dedicated toit. And Olga was on that
committee. She's very, verydedicated to this, and she was
(25:40):
the natural choice for us to tolead us that. So those are the
kinds of things that she isgoing to be doing. She's going
to continue to be an educatorand a teacher, but this is going
to be a big part of her job now,is to lead that. So we're very,
very excited about that, and
Matt Kirchner (25:55):
you should be very excited. Let's dissect that
a little bit, because youmentioned two sides of it, I
think. And this is just so, justso we're making sure that the
message is getting through tothe audience. Obviously, we can
talk a lot about, on the AIside, building that into
curriculum, building that intostudent experience. We talked
about building certificateprograms and degree programs
around that. But then the otherpart of it in higher education
(26:16):
is, how are we using AI to dothe work of education? Right?
I'm just such a huge believer,at any level of education, the
amount of data that we haveabout our students can really
be, in a good way, overwhelming.
I mean, in a lot of other marketspaces, you would do anything to
have the kind of data we haveabout student performance,
extracurricular activities,attendance, aptitudes, test
scores, all of this informationthat we have about our students,
(26:40):
and I'm just a huge believerthat the future of education is
recognizing that not everybodylearns the same way. Not
everybody's going to benefitfrom the same style of delivery.
And so let's figure out, let'suse that data that we have
figure out how our students arelearning best, and then catering
that educational experience tothe students based on that. It
sounds like you're getting intosome of that already. We are,
(27:02):
and there are
John Walz (27:04):
a number of tools out there. I mean, you could
eventually see it. You know, astudent is doing a math problem,
and they're stuck on a mathproblem, and here's a machine
learning algorithm that couldlook at what they've done, and
actually you can say, hey,you've made a mistake here. This
is what I should have done. Sothat's a study tool, right? It's
helping students learn. It'shelping with their student
success. Many of our faculty aredoing that, helping them design
(27:24):
problems or assess the workthat's being done. So that's
really a part of it. The otherpart about it, and you touched
upon, is how we operate. So oneof the big applications that we
have right now that we're usingit is on student recruitment and
admissions. Here's a student,they're interested in mechanical
engineering. Here's someinformation about that student.
Here's where they're from,Racine, Wisconsin, and we've got
(27:46):
machine learning programs nowthat can say, hey, this is what
we think it's going to take toget that student. This is the
financial aid award that we needto do. Or we think, you know
this student, getting thatstudent on campus is important,
or hooking that student up withthe faculty member. These are
the things that you can do toincrease the likelihood of
landing that student. And so weexpect to see improvements in
(28:07):
not only helping us attractstudents, but on retention of
students as well. What are thestudents struggling with? What
are the tools that we can throwout there? So I think all of
that is going to change highereducation in many ways, and it's
already starting to happen theplace that we're using it more,
probably, right now is, like Isaid, on admissions and
recruitment of students, what isit going to take to land
(28:27):
students here? And
Matt Kirchner (28:28):
just to extend that a little bit, number one,
the efficiency of being able totarget the perfect student,
right? Because not MSO we is notgoing to be perfect for every
student. Not every student isgoing to be perfect for MSO we.
And not that it's good or bad orright or wrong, but the more you
can dial in on what's right forthe student and how are they
going to fit at the university,the more likely that you are to
recruit that person, the morelikely they are to have a
(28:50):
positive experience, right? Theyget there once they get there,
that speaks to the retentionpart that you talked about, and
then being able to think aboutas we're spending our recruiting
budget, how do we spend that asefficiently as possible and be
able to attract the bestpossible students that are going
to be a great fit for theuniversity, and then use that
capital maybe in other parts ofthe work that you're doing? So
(29:10):
incredibly brilliant that way.
Had a conversation, actually,earlier this week with somebody
who said to say hi, by the way,we share a friend in the form of
Dr Richard Barnhouse. Oh yeah,sure, rich at wauci County
Technical College, who hastremendous admiration, by the
way, for your way of thinkingabout higher education schedule.
And Rich and I have worked onsome really fun things. Rich has
been using AI to, you know, forthe student scheduling
experience, right? So literally,like, build different iterations
(29:33):
of schedules. So as students,especially in this new world of
education where we may beworking, we may have other
things other than just being oncampus every day and going to
class and being able to maximizethe matching of faculty and
academic talent and availabilitywith the availability students,
it's another application forartificial intelligence. So
really, really exciting it is.
(29:54):
It's a new world out there. Yep,exactly, and we're proud and
excited to be forging into ittogether. There on the horizon
as we look to the future, you'retalking about how you're using
John AI now at the University,if we look back or look forward,
I should say, three to fiveyears from now, what other
applications do you see on thehorizon? I
John Walz (30:12):
think, for us, and it's Dwight's dream as well as
our dream, is that, you know,eventually, every engineering
graduate who comes out of MS weknows how to use it, right?
We're getting there. We're notquite there yet. We have minors,
we have courses, but that'swhere we want, and it becomes
the basis of the fundamentalsthat you're using. And how can
AI help you with that andeventually expand that beyond
just engineering, whether it'snursing or business and other
(30:34):
degree programs, that's where wewant. We have set our goal with
our board that we'll be arecognized leader and applied AI
education, right? This is it'snothing that gets great
fundamental research. It's a lotof great friends to do that, a
lot of great institutions.
That's not our mission, right?
Our mission is applying thistechnology. And that is really
where we can set that apart. Andwe want to get to a point where
(30:56):
people across the country willsay, those students who come out
of MSO, we know how to use thattechnology here, and that's what
we're working and that's whatOlga is really going to help us
do that. And
Matt Kirchner (31:06):
that model isn't really anything new for MSO. We
in the sense of that, assomebody who's employed your
graduates in manufacturing for30 years now, the truth of the
matter is that the universityhas a reputation for producing
students that are, we used tocall them shop floor ready,
right? So you can recruit a lotof students out of engineering
schools, and you can just tell,you can tell the ones that had a
(31:27):
hands on experience, a polytechnic experience, from the
ones that had a real theoreticalexperience in engineering. And
there's a place for all of themthat's right, but, but you've
always had a reputation ofpeople that come out not just
knowing the theory, but puttingit to work on day one, and this
is just another extension ofthat. That's
John Walz (31:43):
right, and that's what I've heard, you know, since
I've been here at ms SOE foreight and a half years now, and
I've had so many eitherrecruiters or company CEOs will
say to me something like, mycompany hires engineers from
these different schools, allgreat schools, but there's one
thing that sets the msweGraduate apart, is they hit the
ground running, and you canthrow a hard problem at them
(32:03):
from day one, and they will getit. And that, we take a lot of
pride
Matt Kirchner (32:06):
in that, and they're comfortable in what we
call the gemba, or the place ofaction, which, in my world, the
manufacturing was always theshop floor, right? Yeah. So, you
know, there's a lot of folksthat, you know, if you've just
learned in a classroom, and allof a sudden you're standing out
on the manufacturing floor with,you know, safety glasses and and
earplugs and steel toe shoes,and it's like, you know, they
they're overwhelmed by it andand MS always graduates, I can
speak from experience. That'snot the case. You've got them,
(32:28):
and again, in my case ofmanufacturing, but you put, you
put students into a lot ofdifferent disciplines and a lot
of different career pathways,but absolutely the reputation
that you have. And I think it'simportant for us to recognize
that that's going to be supervaluable, I think, as we move
into the future of what highereducation looks like, and
certainly what employers arelooking for, the enrollment
cliff, we, you know, it almostsounds cliche to talk about it,
(32:49):
because everybody knows it'sit's coming. We know that we're
going to have, you know, thesame number of universities
recruiting a smaller number ofstudents for a period of time.
So if competition is whatcompetition is, that's going to
really force us to be innovativein higher education. Talk about
some of those challenges,whether it's demographic or
otherwise, that higher educationis facing, and what MSO is
doing, yeah, I think generally,
John Walz (33:10):
you hit it right? The key is, demographics are one of
it. I mean, just, you know, alower birth rate of students 18
years ago. There's also studentsquestioning whether, do I need
to go get a four year degree,right? You hear about what's
happening, is it worth it? Andso for all these different
reasons, yeah, recruitingstudents and coming into
universities is going to getharder and harder. The wealthy
(33:31):
schools with a billion, multibillion dollar endowments, they
can survive, but it's going tobe a challenging time. And what
we've recognized this, this isnot completely new, right? The
demographic clip has been knownabout for 18 years now. So what
Ms OE is doing a couple ofdifferent things to ensure that
we continue to thrive and getstronger. Number one, we're
(33:51):
broadening our educationalofferings. We're recognizing,
I'm still a big believer, that astudent going to school and
learning on campus is just agreat experience, and I don't
think that's going to change,but I think that if you want to
reach a broader group ofstudents, there are some
students that that just may notwork for. Maybe they're in a
different part of their life,they're married, right? They
(34:11):
whatever, they're not going tomove off to campus. You need to
be able to reach those types ofstudents. That's part of it is
broadening, and that's whatwe're doing with professional
education and these master'sdegree programs that are
mentioned, they're all online,and that is a place where online
education can work. If you'retrying to teach an 1819 year old
kid how to do thermodynamics anddo that to an online that's not
(34:32):
the easy thing to do. So ifyou're trying to teach a 27 year
old student who already has anundergraduate degree, they can
work from home, they want topick up a master's degree, then
it can work quite well. It'sjust a different motivation,
different type of student. Sobroadening our offerings is
number one, but also just whatwe call expanding our reach. You
know, traditionally, 60% of ourstudents have come from the
(34:54):
state of Wisconsin, and we stillwill recruit heavily to
Wisconsin, but we've recognizedwe've got to go beyond. That
too. We've got a great thingthat we offer here. So a comment
that I've heard many times sinceI started here from, you know,
maybe people, political leaders,others said, MS, we, you guys,
are a hidden gem. And I willsay, I like half of that, right?
(35:15):
I love being a gym, but no one'sgonna come to us if we're
hidden, right? So, you know,getting out there and marketing
and new ways of marketing andreaching a broader group of
students, maybe beyond justWisconsin and getting into the
neighboring state. So I think acombination of those and we'll
be fine, but that's, I thinkthat's the right way to do it.
So it's
Matt Kirchner (35:32):
interesting, 60% of your students from Wisconsin,
I might have guessed it was evenhigher than that. So you've got,
you know, four out of 10students are coming from out of
state, yeah, and the majority
John Walz (35:41):
of them probably would come from the Northern
Illinois area. Okay, right? Imean, they're either Chicago
suburbs are closer to us thanmany parts of Wisconsin, right?
So we do recruit out of thatremaining bed for, you know, the
remaining 40% that would be thebulk of them. But do we get
students? We get them from otherMidwest states. We get students
here, actually, quite a number,who come from from around the
country to play athletics, andathletics is a very important
(36:04):
recruiting tool for us. So astudent, maybe, you know, living
in California, who wants to playsoccer, and maybe they want to
get a great education, andperhaps they're maybe, you know,
not a d1 level soccer player. Ithink our students are wonderful
soccer players, but we canappeal to that and say, Come
here. You come here, you can geta great education, you can
participate in athletics. That'svery important for us. Athletics
(36:25):
plays a huge role for us in
Matt Kirchner (36:26):
the urban campus.
And you've got just a beautifulsoccer field, actually, right
there, like Water Street, it'son
John Walz (36:33):
top of a parking garage, right? We have a soccer
field built on top of a parkingExactly. Very unique. Yeah, for
Matt Kirchner (36:38):
sure, it is. And as you and I were talking
earlier, I actually spent sixyears of my life living pretty
much right on your campus. Theapartment that I lived in after
I graduated from college was, Imean, the your radio station was
right across the street. Yeah, Ilooked out the window at the
baseball team playing out thereon the baseball field and And
absolutely, that is aninteresting aspect. I love it.
And you live right in the middleof that, all that activity going
(36:58):
on. I know you live right oncampus in the president's
residence, which is a greatexperience. You know, being a
celebrity, not just on campus,but obviously carrying a high
profile in the City ofMilwaukee, in the state of
Wisconsin, our Business Journalrecently recognized you as a
quote power player. I wouldattest to that, obviously,
really leading, in so many ways,higher education into the future
here in southeast Wisconsin.
Tell us what that recognition,how did that come about, and
(37:21):
what does it mean?
John Walz (37:23):
I was really honored to get it. I didn't expect it.
There's some, obviously, somereally wonderful people on
there. It's great to have yourwork recognized. I mean, I love
what I do. I love ourinstitution. I love our faculty
staff, I love our students. Andso to me, it's a joy doing what
I do, and I think it's a greatinstitution. And if I get
recognized for that, then that'smakes it even nicer, but
absolutely, yeah, what
Matt Kirchner (37:43):
are those one or two things that absolutely kind
of drive you day in and day out?
When you get up in the morningand excited to go about the work
that you're doing.
John Walz (37:50):
You do this work because you love students. You
have to love students. You haveto you see the value and the
creativity and the hard workthat they have. And we just have
great groups of students. Dothey like to have a little fun?
Of course, they like to have alittle have a little fun. But
they're, they're 18. You know, Iwas, we were all 18 or 19 once,
right? And still fun. And sothey work hard. They're great.
(38:12):
They're grounded. And I lovebeing around them. I love going
to watch their sporting events,and I love to watch them
succeed. To me, Commencement isone of the most special times. I
mean, you're sitting up thereand you're watching the students
and their family, they're soproud of them, and seeing walk
across that degree and shaketheir hand. To me, it's like
this is why we do what we doright to give these students
(38:35):
that great education and knowthat they're going to go off and
be the next white Derek sowhomever, and just contribute
and make the world. I give thema make the world a better place.
And so I that's what I like,Absolutely,
Matt Kirchner (38:46):
one of my, one of my very best friends, I'll just
mention his name is Johnlaundry. His son, Max, I
believe, is graduating thisspring, has had, and John, will
tell me, has told me that Ms OEwas exactly the right spot for
his third son. His first twowent to the University of
Wisconsin, Madison, obviouslydifferent model, much bigger
university, but a great school.
Yeah, both great institutions intheir own right, for sure, but
(39:06):
just the experience for to ourearlier point, his son, who was
at a place in his life that justabsolutely flourished at ms OE,
and I'm sure being able to tosit up on that stage and watch
them come across the stage andthen those diplomas at the end
of the at the end of theirjourney, which in some ways is
just the beginning of theirjourney in this age of lifelong
learning. That's right, but it'sgot to be just incredibly it is
(39:27):
incredibly rewarding. So acouple more questions for you.
Sure. Everybody has their ownexperience through education.
Everybody has their own view ofeducation. What is something
that Dr John walls would say Youthink differently about
education than most other peopledo, or that would surprise other
people in terms of your paradigmfor education?
John Walz (39:48):
Well, that's a great question. Maybe I'm a bit of a
traditionalist, but as Imentioned, I still think a
student going to college andbeing there in person is a great
way to get educated. I think youlearned as much outside of the
classroom as you learned.
People, I mean, in the peoplethat you make and the, you know,
solving your roommate problemsand learning how to deal with
that, that's all a part ofeducation, right? There's what
you learn in the class and allthe other stuff. And you're
(40:09):
taking an 1819, year oldindividual who is still
developing in many ways, andproducing out an adult who's
who's ready to go out in theworld. And so I still think
coming to campus and dealingwith all that is still the
greatest, the greatest form ofeducation. And I never want to
get away from that. Do Iunderstand that there's a
there's a place for onlineeducation? Of course, I do. I
(40:31):
get that, sure, but I just neverhope that we never get away from
that model of mom and daddropping off their son or
daughter at school and theemotions of that, and then
seeing them when they graduateis still one of the greatest
experiences all, and that's abig part of who we are. So the
traditional education, I think,is incredibly valuable, still
such
Matt Kirchner (40:50):
an interesting observation, and I've said for
many, many years, during my postsecondary experience, went
actually to another solidMilwaukee institution, Marquette
University, where I studiedafter high school, I've said
forever that I learned as muchoutside of the classroom as I
did in, and part of it,obviously, was the academic side
of things, but then interactingwith your roommates and solving
problems there. And I worked aton when I was in college, I
(41:12):
worked from Milwaukee County inthe Aquatics department. I
coached swimming. I was alwaysworking. I was always, you know,
studying as much as I as I couldor had to, to make it through
the journey, and then alsotrying to fit in a bunch of fun
as well, whether that wasextracurricular activities
clubs. We didn't have an AI clubat that point, of course, but,
but others so, so important, andso it's interesting to hear you
say that that in this age ofwhen everybody's talking about
(41:33):
Virtual Learning and Technologyand remote this and whatever
it's got its place, andcertainly for the the student,
depending upon where they are intheir life. Want to make those
opportunities available to themso that everybody has a chance
at a solid higher education, butthat campus experience
absolutely important, and it'sgreat that you point that out.
One final question for you,John, as we wrap up our time
(41:54):
with Dr John walls here on TheTechEd Podcast, President, by
the way, of the Milwaukee Schoolof Engineering, I know you grew
up in Louisiana, right, north ofNew Orleans, right or New
Orleans, New Orleans? Yeah. Sotell me a little bit about that.
If you were to go back in timeto that 15 year old John walls,
your sophomore in high school,whole life ahead of you,
(42:15):
enjoying the much warmertemperatures in Louisiana than
we're seeing here in Milwaukeethese days. If you could give
that young man one piece ofadvice, John, what would that
be? So
John Walz (42:23):
that's a great question, and I appreciate that,
and I would give them the advicethat I give to the entering
freshmen. I always address ourentering freshmen, and I say,
take advantage of theseopportunities that you're going
to have. You know, whetheryou're in high school, whether
in college, you're never goingto have a time like this ever
again in your life, and don'tlet it just go by, right? And,
(42:45):
you know, don't think, wow, I'lllearn that eventually I'll do
that. Because, as you and I bothknow it goes by fast, and you
want to look back and say, Man,I wish I would have done this or
not done that. So take advantageof these great you, these
students, and whether you're inhigh school or in college, you
just given enormousopportunities. And just don't
(43:06):
let all that pass you by, right?
Stay focused, have a little fun,but take advantage of that.
That's what I would have givento myself. And I wish there were
things that I probably wish Iwould have done, that I did,
right? I just goofed off alittle bit, maybe sure not
should have done less, but thatwould be it. I think that's
Matt Kirchner (43:23):
absolutely perfect for a young person that
is, you know, sophomore in highschool, thinking about their,
you know, finishing off theirsecondary journey and then, and
then heading off into what comesafter, after high school, and
really, you know, living everyone of those moments, being
aware of those incredibleopportunities. There's a lot of
ways that we can just pass timethese days, right? I mean, it's
almost impossible to be bored,because as soon as you are you
(43:45):
can jump on YouTube or jump ontick tock, and that fills the
time, right? You've got all ofthese experiences that are
available to you during yourcollegiate journey. Make sure
you're watching for thoserealizing the minutes are coming
and taking advantage of them asthey make themselves available
to you because time passesreally, really quickly, as it
did, by the way, in this episodeof The TechEd Podcast. So the
(44:06):
incredible conversation herewith Dr John walls, the
president of the greatinstitution, the Milwaukee
School of Engineering, learned aton you're leading. You're doing
great things. I know ouraudience really, really enjoyed
this episode, as did I. John,thanks so much for being with
us. Thank
John Walz (44:19):
you, Matt. It was a real pleasure. I enjoyed talking
to you very much. So thank youfor joining
Matt Kirchner (44:23):
us on this episode of The TechEd Podcast.
It's Matt Kirk, nurse, sowonderful to have you with us.
We'll put all of the informationfrom this episode in the show
notes. Check out the show notesat TechEd podcast slash walls.
That's TechEd podcast slash w, aL z. TechEd podcast, slash w, a,
l, Z, that's where the shownotes are. Are going to be, and
(44:44):
then check us out on socialmedia. Of course, we're all over
social you can find us onLinkedIn and tick tock on
Facebook, on Instagram, whereveryou are. Checking out social
media, you will find The TechEdPodcast. Follow us there. Be
sure to say hello. We would loveto hear from you. And until
nine. This week, I'm MattKirchner, your host. Thanks for
being with us. You.
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